From bob.oliver at cox.net Sun May 1 00:34:40 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 00:34:40 -0000 Subject: Sin/Redemption & Snape / Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128337 > > lealess: > > I do have trouble seeing the whole redemption angle, with reference to > Snape. It seems to me that redemption has to be granted, in a > Judeo-Christian tradition, by some sort of god. It is not something > you give yourself, no matter how worthy your deeds or how pure your > intent. So will it be that Harry forgives Snape's sins, cures his > guilt, and welcomes him into final reconciliation with the good? Or > does redemption happen through death, especially through sacrifice, > leading to full acceptance by good itself? Redemption seems to be a > Judeo-Christian deus ex machina. > > Anyway, I am sure someone else can explain this concept, and I hope it > is not off topic or offensive to anyone. > > I was trying to think what Christian teachings really might be, and, > reflecting my naivet?, they seem to include (1) following/ > honoring/ loving a certain higher power and (2) accepting Jesus' > teachings as your path for coming into harmony with that power. Then > there is what I really took away from the many Sunday schools I > attended: faith, hope and charity; love your neighbor as you love > yourself; turn the other cheek; judge not lest you be judged; who > among you will throw the first stone ? that kind of good stuff, > which > I still appreciate. It would be great if those concepts fit into the > HP books. > Well, let me start by saying that, although I think the Potterverse is probably closer to Christian allegory than Joseph Campbell, I don't think JKR is operating from any strict system of analogy. Rather, I think she is influenced by many different things, religion being one of them. To answer some of the questions, let me also acknowledge there really is no generic Christianity. The religion has thousands of variants, some of which violently disagree with one another. Let me answer from the perspective of my own branch, Eastern Orthodoxy (which has some strong similarities with High Church Anglicanism, as both are very influenced by Patristic sources). In that perspective, how you act doesn't matter much IN AND OF ITSELF. What matters is who you are. Now, a person who is in harmony with God (a process called "theosis" by the way), will act in a certain way. However, other people may act in the same way for a variety of reasons. To bring this to Snape, he may be working for Dumbledore because he genuinely was sorry for his career as a DE. However, he may be cooperating with DD for other reasons -- to save himself, to prove himself better than James Potter, etc. Does this matter? Absolutely, from this particular Christian perspective. Whether Snape is one of the "good guys" or not doesn't depend on what he does, but WHO HE IS. And as we don't know who Snape is yet, we can't really judge - except that JKR's pronouncements don't give one great confidence. So, all I'm really saying is that if JKR is influenced by these strands of Christian thought (I don't think she's deliberately crafting an allegory a la C.S. Lewis) then she may well condemn Snape as one of the "bad guys" even if he continues to support Dumbledore. Because how Snape acts isn't nearly as important as WHY he acts that way, and if he is doing the right thing for the wrong reasons, he is, sadly, one of the bad guys. Now, this may not seem fair. But, once again under this system, God is above such mortal concepts as fair and unfair. He (God) has made his own basic commands quite clear, and He doesn't regard them as suggestions. The question about trauma is an interesting one, and one theologians and others debate. But the traditional answer is that what matters is whether one truly aligns oneself with the will of God (that is, the Good, which is probably how the Potterverse will deal with the concept rather than casting it in religious terms). Excuses are not admitted. Which can lead to some very harsh judgments, but in many varieties of Christianity judgment is one of God's chief prerogatives. Jesus did say turn the other cheek. He also scourged the money lenders out of the temple in a fit of righteous rage. Christ was not always kind, nor was he always forgiving. He sometimes drew very clear lines, and enforced them without much concern for individual circumstances or possible mitigating factors. So, to bring this back to Snape and others, once again all this means is that in the end what Snape does may not turn out to be nearly as important as who Snape is - or even more importantly, who Snape has chosen to be. Is he one of the good guys? If his actions spring from the right source, yes. If they don't, no. If he saved Harry because he believed it was in accord with the Good, he is one of the good guys. If he saved Harry because he owed it to James Potter, he is not. If he fights Voldemort because it is right to do, he is one of the good guys. If he fights Voldemort to prove he is a better man than James Potter, he is not one of the good guys. Harsh, but possible. Lupinlore From juli17 at aol.com Sun May 1 01:49:02 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:49:02 EDT Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape Message-ID: <59.26b68679.2fa58f8e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128338 Alla wrote: > Could you or anybody else for that matter, please show me that Snape > treats Hermione as capable student she is. That he encourages her to > study that he sees her efforts, etc. By that I don't mean that he is > NICE to her. It would be enough for me that he ... let's her talk in > his class. > > By the way, I don't think that Hermione's good grade counts as such > proof . As I said I think that Hermione's learning despite Snape not > because of him. > > Just my opinion of course, > > Thanks, > > Alla Julie says: I think it was Pippin who mentioned that Snape doesn't call on Hermoine in class as an example of how he treats her as a capable student, and I agree. Treating a student as capable and aiding a gifted student in achieving all she possibly can are not the same thing, of course. So Snape treats her as a capable student, since he only calls on the ones he suspects aren't up to snuff on whatever's being taught at the moment. But he doesn't make any effort to enhance Hermoine's abilities; instead he leaves her to do her best on her own. Which, fortunately she does. BTW, I'm glad you brought up the grade issue. It does bring up an interesting fact about Snape. From what we can observe, no matter how he feels about any student, it appears he is quite fair in his grading. He gives Hermoine the grade her work deserves, despite the fact that he clearly doesn't like her. Same with Ron and Harry, and even Neville. Based on how well we've seen them perform at making potions, they seem to get grades that reflect their actual performances. (And, yes, in Harry's case, I do recall when his potion fell/was knocked off Snape's desk). I admit grading does reflect Snape's teaching methods, such as whether he makes Neville so fearful the boy can't perform, or whether he lets Draco get away with certain excuses he wouldn't dream of allowing Harry or Ron. But if a student does want to learn and isn't going to allow Snape's snarkiness to affect him/her, then that student *will* get the good grade, as in Hermoine's case. That does indicate some bit of integrity on Snape's part (that not every teacher has, BTW). It's not the whole picture on Snape of course, but it's one demostrably positive attribute ;-) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 01:51:35 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 01:51:35 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape/Definition of Snape-like teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128339 Alla earlier: Hmmm, I think you actually proved my point, sort of. :-) Snape is not interested in the students who know the answers, correct? So, how exactly this is a good environment for gifted child, if teacher is not interested in her? Pippin: Because often the best thing a teacher can do for a gifted child is to stay the !@#$ out of her way and not put any additional pressure on her. McGonagall fulfills the first part but not the second. Remember the time turner? Remember who Hermione's boggart is? There'd be even more pressure on Hermione to have the right answer when called on in potions with a chorus of Slytherins ready to pounce and snigger if she got anything wrong. Alla: But Snape does NOT leave her alone , he makes her shut up every time she tries to answer his questions. And if he indeed leaves her alone, again why should he take a credit for teaching her anything? What kind of teaching is that,when teacher gives you no feedback on how you are doing? As to time - turner, didn't Hermione go to MCGonagall, because she wanted help in managing her busy schedule? Sure it went out all wrong, but McGonagall did not make Hermione to sign up for too many classes. She just tried her best to help AFTER Hermione already did it, IMO. Good point about McGonagall being Hermione's boggart though - she gets some points deducted in competition for being most suitable teacher for Hermione. :-) She is still way ahead of Snape , IMO. :-) Besides, Doesn't it show that Mcgonagall indeed forces Hermione to study? Alla earlier : I see absolutely no rudeness in Harry answers. I think he was honestly telling Snape that Hermione knows better than him. Pippin: "I don't know," said Harry quietly. "I think Hermione does, though, why don't you ask her." A few people laughed. Harry caught Seamus's eye and Seamus winked. If Harry had no idea he was insulting Snape (and Hermione!) I think he'd have been puzzled about why people laughed and Seamus winked. Alla: Unless Harry thought that his classmates laughing at his answers was how it is supposed to be during the lesson and was not surprised at all. After all, he did have a hard time in his school before Hogwarts. " At school, Harry had no one. Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his bagy old clothes and broken glasses, and nobody liked to disagree with Dudley's gang" - PS/SS, paperback, p.31. He was probably used at people laughing at him. Harry answered "quietly"- not smiling, not smirking at Snape, "quietly". To me it says that it was a timid reply of a boy who just arrived into a completely new world and the last thing he wanted was insult someone who was a teacher and a wizard in this new world. But again as I said - it is just me and we will have to agree to disagree on that. Shaun: Teachers do not have to be nice. Teachers do not have to be kind. Teachers do not even have to be emotionally stable. None of those things are relevant to their abilities as teachers - because a teachers job is to teach. Phoenixgod 2000: Well, I would argue that a teacher really should be emotionally stable in order to teach. Maybe even moreso when it comes to magic, which seems to require a certain mastery of emotions. Emotional instability certainly held Snape back from properly teaching Harry. Alla: Amen to that. No, teacher does not have to be nice, but teacher has no right to harm students and IMO emotionally unstable teacher has no business being near children, simply because he/she may harm them permanently AND it will interfere with their ability to teach. Who knows which action may trigger alarm in the emotionally unstable teacher's head and what he/she can do to the student who did it. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 02:58:34 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 02:58:34 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128340 > >>Phoenixgod wrote: > We've never even really seen him actually teach. IIRC, most of the lesson's > we've seen him do are just putting directions on the board and > giving out homework.< > > >I don't really see him as a teacher at all because I don't think > that there is any evidence that he actually cares if anyone even > learns Potions. To me, that is what separates Snape from a stern > teacher who wants to convey knowledge. Snape is mean because he > doesn't want to be bothered.< > > Betsy: > As to the readers seeing Snape teach, we see him teaching just about > as much as we see McGonagall teaching. If we went solely on what we > read in the books we'd have to say that McGonagall's teaching method > was to set a task and make the students repeat it and repeat it > until they finally picked it up on their own. > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I have to agree with Betsy here. I haven't really seem much by way of any of the teachers actually teach, it is implied, but not written out in the books. I would have to say also, that even if Snape is only giving the children directions on the board and simply asking them to follow them, then I'm sorry, these kids are pretty dumb if they can't do that simple task. There are a couple of times in the books where, Harry and Neville both only have to follow directions Snape has put on the board to make the potions and, they screw it up? Hello?? I find that..um...hello kids, are you awake in class?? And these are both times when Snape fusses at them, why..well Its obvious to me, um...all you have to do is read the darn board and make the potion.....Could it be that Snape is actually trying to teach them something...called "Paying attention" If they can't pay any attention better than that, then, hum, could they easily be hurt in a much more dangerous situation, because they didn't pay attention. Taking an example: if someone doesn't pay attention to stop lights they are likely to end up getting killed, so, I find it rather dangerous that if one can melt a caldron in class, then it is just as likely one could melt flesh in class. So, to me if these kids are not capable of following directions on a board, then, to me, its a sad case for the wizarding world. But, I can see both sides, but, a lot of times I see Harry's mind wondering in Potions class and perhaps he is not applying himself like he should. I don't have my books in front of me but I remember the scene with Umbridge and Snape, and Harry is not paying attention and instead paying attention to what Umbridge and Snape are saying. I am not saying Harry is bad for doing that because, if I were in Harry's shoes I would be doing the same thing (laughs) But it can also be argued he was there to do his potions work and he was not doing it because he was being nosey...so meh, its easy to argue both sides of it...... Is reminded of the little mermaid, and I think Snape is a follower of this saying: Teenagers, give them an inch and they walk all over you... Perhaps we need to change it for Snape though; Teenagers, give them a caldron...and it melts all over you.... (teehee) KarentheUnicorn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun May 1 03:12:20 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 03:12:20 -0000 Subject: Prophecy wording - why not Neville? In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a05043015266baa6ebc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: > That is what Dumbledore believes, and he can make a very reasonable > case that it's true, but we don't know this as a fact. We have no > idea what may have happened to Neville. He is not marked physically > on any part of his body that we can see, but we cannot say with > certainty that Neville was not also marked. GEO: I'm not just talking about a physical mark, but also similarities and equalities in power and background. It was Voldemort's attack on Harry that left the boy with the mark and some of Voldemort's own powers including parseltongue, but it also left Harry's life very similar to that of the young Tom Riddle Jr: orphaned, being raised by muggles who they obviously were not particularly fond of, being "saved" through the Hogwarts letters, having their shared wand cores and getting the opportunity to be sorted into slytherin house, which Harry thankfully avoided. Neville shares none of these similarities with Voldemort aside from the lack of a mark. We also cannot rule out > the possibility that Voldemort has not, at this point in canon, marked > anyone *as his equal*. GEO: But within the realm of our knowledge, Harry is the only one that has been as somewhat of an equal to the Dark Lord though certainly not in magical power and knowledge, but certainly in background and we have seen that in two contests of will power, Harry has proven to be stronger than Voldemort or at least strong enough to exorcise the latter from his mind and force his wand to regurgitate spells in what appeared to be a duel of wills. In addition to the merits of their > arguments (as well as the possibility of a wand-order-type error), > unless Dumbledore has used his Legilimens powers on LV (and there > doesn't seem to have been much time for him to do that at the DoM), he > doesn't *know* what LV's intent was. GEO: Considering that Dumbledore was even able to divine the reasons for why Voldemort picked Harry instead of Neville, I think the man's knowledge of Voldemort's actions and intentions shouldn't be questioned, it is just part of his character. > JKR unquestionably wants us to believe that Harry is the one. But she > also wanted us to believe that Sirius was a DE. I don't think we can > rule out the possibility that Dumbledore's explanation was a big > setup. GEO: Two totally different situations. The circumstansial evidence certainly showed that Sirius Black was the servant of Voldemort and we certainly had no declaratiion from Dumbledore on this subject until the end while in the latter Dumbledore does tell us that Harry was the One. > And, in my mind, the big tip-off that Dumbledore has not correctly > analysed it comes when he tells Harry that the phrase "neither can > live while the other survives" means that Harry will have to kill > Voldemort or be killed. GEO: Actually that was Harry's intepretation. Dumbledore just confirmed his interpretation and there were other bits of the prophecy to take into account like the "and either must die at the hand of the other" statement. > Also, I don't believe that JKR said that > Dumbledore is always right either (just like Hermione is not always > right; she always quotes from a book such as Hogwarts: A History), but > I couldn't find the quote on Quick Quotes. Do you have a link? GEO: The issue was discuessed in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128287 > JKR knows everything, but her characters don't have the same luxury. > She is a master of misdirection and of clues hidden in plain sight. > Dumbledore is not omniscient, and admits in the very same chapter that > he does make mistakes. GEO: Actually in the words of the writer he is the most omniscient character in the book though I for one would argue that there is a difference in mistakes made by him because of errors in judgement and errors in fact and knowledge. He has in the books made quite a few of the former including possibly putting Harry with the Dursleys to protect him, giving evidence to put Sirius in Azkaban and doing nothing for more than a decade and of course his handling of the affair between Sirius, Snape and Harry in OOTP while there certainly appears to be none of the latter. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 03:51:26 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 03:51:26 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape/Definition of Snape-like teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128342 >>Alla: >...IMO emotionally unstable teacher has no business being near children, simply because he/she may harm them permanently AND it will interfere with their ability to teach. >Who knows which action may trigger alarm in the emotionally unstable teacher's head and what he/she can do to the student who did it. Betsy: So then you are in complete agreement with those who think Lupin should not teach and should never been allowed to teach? After all, a teacher who if he forgets his meds will try and eat the student body is a perfect example of an "unstable" teacher, wouldn't you say? And I'd say being eaten is a good example of permanent harm. Betsy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun May 1 03:51:31 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 03:51:31 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128343 Phoenixgod: > Tough is good. Kids need tough sometimes. But I don't think that > Snape has any sort of teaching style because I don't think he > wants to be a teacher. I would lay down money that there isn't a > kid in one of his classrooms that doesn't know that he would > rather be somewhere else, doing something else, than teaching > them. SSSusan: What will interest me is what we see in *Advanced* Potions in books 6 & (assuming he survives) 7. I see why you have interpreted Snape this way, Phoenixgod, but I do wonder whether he might not be a little different in Advanced Potions, where the Dunderheads have been weeded out. Seeing him in AP will give us a better sense of whether Snape really would rather be anywhere other than teaching students... or whether he'd rather be anywhere other than teaching dunderheads. On the other hand, if Harry finagles (sp?) his way into Advanced Potions via some other route than earning it, it might skew our results a bit, as it were: we might not see how Snape really is with advanced students; we might, rather, just see more of surly Snape, bent on humiliating Harry. Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 04:12:48 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 04:12:48 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape/Definition of Snape-like teacher /a bit of Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128344 Julie says: I think it was Pippin who mentioned that Snape doesn't call on Hermoine in class as an example of how he treats her as a capable student, and I agree. Treating a student as capable and aiding a gifted student in achieving all she possibly can are not the same thing, of course. So Snape treats her as a capable student, since he only calls on the ones he suspects aren't up to snuff on whatever's being taught at the moment. But he doesn't make any effort to enhance Hermoine's abilities; instead he leaves her to do her best on her own. Which, fortunately she does. Alla: Well, Julie, after reading this paragraph I think I can concede to that, if I would make the wording a bit more harsh - instead of "Snape treats Hermione as capable student" - something like Snape treats Hermione as someone who can learn the material with minimum interference from him. I am glad that we are on the same page though in assessing that Snape does not make any efforts to enhance Hermione's abilities. Julie: BTW, I'm glad you brought up the grade issue. It does bring up an interesting fact about Snape. From what we can observe, no matter how he feels about any student, it appears he is quite fair in his grading. I admit grading does reflect Snape's teaching methods, such as whether he makes Neville so fearful the boy can't perform, or whether he lets Draco get away with certain excuses he wouldn't dream of allowing Harry or Ron. But if a student does want to learn and isn't going to allow Snape's snarkiness to affect him/her, then that student *will* get the good grade, as in Hermoine's case. That does indicate some bit of integrity on Snape's part (that not every teacher has, BTW). It's not the whole picture on Snape of course, but it's one demostrably positive attribute ;-) Alla: I am ALMOST in agreement with you that Snape grades fairly, except where it concerns Harry, of course. I don't know if it is indeed true that Dumbledore had to interfere to make Snape give Harry a passing grade in potions in PoA, or it is simply Harry's imagination, but it IS a possibility, I think. And of course those cases of sabotaging Harry's potion in OOP also speak against it, IMO. One can argue of course that only OWL grade matters, BUT it does not make Snape a fair grader, even if he sabotages the grade which does not really matter, IMO. Alla wrote earlier: ...IMO emotionally unstable teacher has no business being near children, simply because he/she may harm them permanently AND it will interfere with their ability to teach.Who knows which action may trigger alarm in the emotionally unstable teacher's head and what he/she can do to the student who did it. Betsy: So then you are in complete agreement with those who think Lupin should not teach and should never been allowed to teach? After all, a teacher who if he forgets his meds will try and eat the student body is a perfect example of an "unstable" teacher, wouldn't you say? And I'd say being eaten is a good example of permanent harm. Alla: Right, you got me here. Except NO. :-) I said " emotionally unstable" teacher, not "physically unstable". Maybe I should add - " emotionally unstable" teacher who does not consider himself to be emotionally unstable and does not take any steps to rectify the situation. It seems to me that Lupin IS perfectly aware of his danger to the students , no? Just my opinion of course, Alla. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun May 1 05:23:21 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 15:23:21 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: References: <42736A1C.4821.48EB157@localhost> Message-ID: <4274F469.18350.46965DA@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 128345 On 30 Apr 2005 at 22:11, phoenixgod2000 wrote: Shaun: > > But I am certainly not certain that Hermione derives any great > > benefit from Snape's classes - she *might* do so, but it's by no > > means certain in my view. > > Phoenixgod2000: > > Hermione can derive benefits from any sort of class?even divination if > it didn't offend her sensibilities--because of who she is and not the > teacher. I disagree on that, rather strongly. I don't believe Hermione was able to derive any benefits from Divination as it was taught. I also don't believe that Hermione was able to derive any benefit from Umbridge's DADA classes. Hermione certainly, in my view, is able to get benefit from most classes - but not *any* sort of class. In the case of Divination, it's because nothing at all useful seems to be being taught. I believe Divination (as it exists in the Harry Potter universe) is something that really cannot be taught to any great extent. You are either a seer, or you are not a seer. Perhaps the subject is useful to someone who is a natural seer - but if you don't have that ability, it's a useless subject. Where facts exist, it's a very woolly subject - there are no clearly right or wrong answers - it's all interpretation, and any interpretation can be right if you can justify it. Hermione isn't likely to learn anything at all in such a class, in my view. With Umbridge, it's a bit different. Umbridge simply doesn't teach at all. Maybe the book she has them reading has some value - but Hermione has devoured it before she even enters the class. She will learn nothing new in that class over an entire year. The fact that Hermione is capable of learning from a book by herself, doesn't mean she learns anything in a class where that book is assigned. > Phoenixgod2000: > > I agree with you about the touchy feely PC crap that infests the > school system (at least the US one). I agree that teachers are > generally there just to teach and not be substitute parents and > sometimes that requires a strong hand. I work with a lot of low > performing students and you have to push them. And push them hard. But > there is a difference between pushing students hard and Snape. Shaun: Is there, though? The way Snape pushes students is certainly not the only way of doing it, but it can be a very valid way. I had two teachers during my schooling who I *really* do think were extremely similar to Snape. One of them was fundamentally, deep down, a nice guy. The other... well, he wasn't. Both were very successful teachers in the sense that their students did very well. What indications we have are that Snape is the same. His students seem to do well. > Phoenixgod2000: > > My problem is with Snape defenders. People who have these elaborate > fantasies about why Snape is the way he is and justify his actions > through contortions of logic that boggle my mind. Snape just isn't a > good person or a good teacher. I understand his role in the story, but > his role just doesn't require me to justify everything he does the way > so many people do. Shaun: Ah, but you see, my dear Phoenixgod, for some of us who had Snape like teachers who taught us very, very effectively, and to whom we may me extremely grateful for that (even if sometimes, we may hate their guts at the same time!), it's rather hard to sit back and watch a style of teaching that worked for us to be dismissed by people based on the fact that they see things differently. Of course, they have the right to see it however they see it - but that is why I defend Snape. Because I really do believe that the way he teaches is a valid way of teaching, and I hate to see anyone - even a literary construct - wrongly criticised. I don't think Snape is a good person. But I do think a valid case can be made for him being a good teacher - and he has to little else going for him, I don't like to see people strip that away as well (-8 > Phoenixgod2000: > > I think you give Snape too much credit when you call what he does a > teaching method. I think Snape doesn't really have one. His *method* > is merely barely concealed contempt for his students. We've never even > really seen him actually teach. IIRC, most of the lesson's we've seen > him do are just putting directions on the board and giving out > homework. That could be merely a product of not being shown in the > books, but something tells me that Snape isn't big on lectures (or any > other form of explaining himself). I don't really see him as a teacher > at all because I don't think that there is any evidence that he > actually cares if anyone even learns Potions. To me, that is what > separates Snape from a stern teacher who wants to convey knowledge. > Snape is mean because he doesn't want to be bothered. Shaun: We don't know that. And I would say there is considerable reason to believe that Snape does teach. Point by point, perhaps. Does Snape care if anyone learns potions? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, he cares. Potions seem to be the one thing he is most passionate about. "As there is little foolish wand-waving here, many of you will hardly believe this is magic. I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses.... I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death - if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." Severus Snape may not care about much. But he cares about potions. To him, it is an art - and it's an art he wants to live. My second Snape-like teacher at school - he taught me Latin (and he tried to teach me Ancient Greek - I didn't cooperate on that one) - he was a nasty, nasty man in some ways. He terrified and terrorised me, in fact, for two years, before I finally became competent enough that I didn't need to fear him. In his classes, you generally had the real impression that he *hated* what he was teaching, and he didn't care at all if we learned it. But he did. What he hated, I think, was standing around in a classroom listening to 30 half-interested boys chant the declensions of Dominus. It was dull enough for us doing it - listening to it must have been hell to him. But when he read to us some account of Roman history, translating freely on the fly from the Latin he was reading to something close to free verse in English... that's when we heard his passion. Believe me, he wanted to teach us - not just to use Latin - but to love Latin - and he knew what a horrible task this was going to be. And we had to wade through it. Snape is a master of his art. I'm sure he wants to teach - but what he wants to teach are the best students - he wants to teach the NEWT students who meet his high standards for entry. To do that he has to get them through the lower levels. And that is hard, and that is dull, and that is barely worthy of his time. But we know his students pass - and we know his standards are high. Even Umbridge says so. > Shaun: > Teachers do not > > have to be nice. Teachers do not have to be kind. Teachers do not > > even have to be emotionally stable. None of those things are > relevant > > to their abilities as teachers - because a teachers job is to > teach. > > Phoenixgod2000: > > Well, I would argue that a teacher really should be emotionally > stable in order to teach. Maybe even moreso when it comes to magic, > which seems to require a certain mastery of emotions. Emotional > instability certainly held Snape back from properly teaching Harry. Shaun: Oh dear - the point I was trying to make seems to have been missed. Let me quote the entire paragraph again - because it's meant to be viewed as a whole: "So the school is traditional - all the teachers seem to use traditional teaching methods and have traditional educational ideas. One of the major ideas that falls into those methods is the idea that a teachers job is to impart knowledge to students. Teachers do not have to be nice. Teachers do not have to be kind. Teachers do not even have to be emotionally stable. None of those things are relevant to their abilities as teachers - because a teachers job is to teach." My point is not that it's undesirable for a teacher to be emotionally stable (nor is it undesirable for them to be nice, or kind, for that matter). Ideally, I believe that those are all *good* things. But Hogwarts as presented in the novels is a highly traditional school - founded on highly traditional teaching methods and traditional educational ideas. *Within that context*, there is considered to be no need for a teacher to be nice, kind, or stable. These things were not considered important in the type of schools that Hogwarts is based on. Hogwarts is a literary construct based on the British Public School model evidenced in thousands of British School novels of the 19th and 20th century. In a 'real world' sense, Hogwarts fits very neatly (though not perfectly) into the model of the highly traditional British Public School - I wrote a whole detailed essay on this a while back which can be found at http://www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/HSWW.html I attended an Australian school based very heavily on that same tradition, and it's a tradition that has interested me most of my life, so I see these parallels - many people won't, because they are not aware of how these schools operate. They do change over time, and in honesty, I think Hogwarts is a bit behind the times (-8 I'm talking about assessing teachers within a particular tradition of education that really is quite different from that most people are aware of today. The statement about emotional stability was a little tongue in cheek - they certainly didn't want insane teachers - but a little eccentricity (even in a way that might seem a bit detrimental to students) would be forgiven in an effective teacher who got results. I think Snape is an effective teacher who gets results. It'd be nice if he was more than that - but in the context of the type of school, Hogwarts is presented as, that is enough. > Phoenixgod2000: > > I would argue that Snape does have a moral duty to every student, his > house or not. These kids are away from their parents ten months out of > the year. They need more than just a head of house for their personal > supervision. Do you really think that if Harry went to Flitwick or > Sprout that they wouldn't do their best to help him? That they > wouldn't do their best for any student who came to them? Snape owes > those kids no less. Dumbledore does a disservice to every child in > his school by putting a person who seems to not even like children all > that much in charge of a very important piece of their education. Shaun: Speaking as someone who attended a similar school to the type I think Hogwarts is presented as, and who had to deal with these issues (at times, for various reasons, I was the type of kid who did need help), I would expect that if Harry went to Flitwick or Sprout with any type of significant problem, not directly related to his subjects with them, their very first question would be "Why have you come to me and not gone to your Head of House?" That's exactly what would have happened at my school. Now, if there was a good reason why Harry hadn't done that, yes, I'm sure that Sprout and Flitwick would do what was necessary to help him - but in all honesty, I would expect Snape to do so as well in that situation (and if he didn't, then I would say he'd failed in his duty) - at that point he would have a responsibility to do so - but his responsibility only becomes apparent if for some reason, Harry cannot get help from the person he should be getting help from - his own Head of House, first. (Of course, there's an exception to this in cases where you're dealing with a time critical situation, like a medical emergency). This is something I had to deal with myself as a kid. And I suspect that my school had moved further along the path of expecting all teachers to behave reasonably than Hogwarts had. > Phoenixgod2000: > > Every teacher has a different style that has to fit their subject and > their personality. I don't like to comment in general on teaching > styles because they are deeply personal things. Tough is good. Kids > need tough sometimes. But I don't think that Snape has any sort of > teaching style because I don't think he wants to be a teacher. I would > lay down money that there isn't a kid in one of his classrooms that > doesn't know that he would rather be somewhere else, doing something > else, than teaching them. And that makes every difference to kids. Shaun: Sure, it can, if they are thinking that. But I wouldn't have thought that, I didn't think that about similar teachers, and I really can't see that in Snape. > Phoenixgod2000: > > Snape's style (poor as it is) does not suit far more children than it > does suit imo. Shaun: That doesn't make it a bad style. Just because a particular child's learning needs are in the minority, doesn't make them any less important than the needs of the majority. Shaun: > > Hermione, to me, seems very much to fit into the mould of a highly > > motivated exceptionally or profoundly gifted child. > > Phoenixgod2000: > > What are you calling gifted? Highly motivated and reasonably > intelligent, I'll give you. But I haven't seen any evidence that > Hermione is anyway an extraordinarily gifted witch. If she was, the > whole house of Ravenclaw would be gifted because they all share > Hermione's love of learning. The only wizards I would call gifted in > the series are Voldemort, Dumbledore, Harry, Neville, and maybe Ron > (chess). They are the only ones who seem to me to have abilities that > go above and beyond what an ordinary wizard could do. Hermione > doesn't do anything that anyone who studied as much as her couldn't > do. Hell, if I could do magic, I would bury myself in books till I > could match DD. Magic is way cool :) OK - when I use the term 'gifted' I am using in the way it is most commonly used in education - to refer to intellectually gifted children. These can be classified in a number of ways, but a simple (though somewhat problematic definition) is to use an IQ score. A gifted child by that measure has an IQ of 130 or more. Exceptionally gifted (seeing I have used the term) refers to a child with an IQ of 160-179, Profoundly gifted refers to children with IQs of over 180. I work with kids like this - and have all my adult life. And I'm fairly good at identifying them (at least the typical ones - they can be rather atypical) by their characteristics. The Harry Potter books were popular among gifted children even before they became broadly popular. Part of the reason for that, was Hermione. Most people who work with gifted kids, and who know the common characteristics of kids at various levels of giftedness, seem to agree that Hermione Granger is at least an exceptionally gifted child, very possibly a profoundly gifted one. She fits so well into that grouping - a relatively well adjusted EG/PG child. Now, of course, the term gifted can be used to refer to other things besides intellectual talent - and it is used in that way - and it can certainly be used in talking about magic talent in the Harry Potter universe. But when you're talking about academics and how children learn in a classroom, it is the domain of intellectual giftedness which is the most relevant - and that's what I've been referring to. Of course, in terms of overall achievement post Hogwarts, her intelligence alone won't be the only relevant factor - but when looking at teaching styles, that is relevant. Hermione isn't just reasonably intelligent - she is extremely intelligent. Now someone could certainly debate that, but as someone who works with such kids (and frankly as someone who was one - that's how I got involved in it), she really does fit the mould extremely well. You'll find relatively few people who know about giftedness and who have read the HP books, who haven't seen a gifted child when they see Hermione (many believe Harry is also gifted - albeit in the moderately gifted range, rather than the exceptional, and some believe Ron might be - largely on the basis that a child with two close gifted friends is likely to be gifted - commonalities are of some relevance - his Chess ability may also be a sign). > Phoenixgod2000: > > I would be curious about what specifically you are referring to in > modern teaching methods and how they relate to gifted children. Could > you email me off list? I don't get the chance to work with too many > gifted kids. My students tend to be on the umm opposite end of the > spectrum. Or at least they act that way till I kick `em in the rear. Shaun: I will e-mail you off list about this. > Phoenixgod2000: > > An argument could be made that it was simply the, for lack of a > better word, magic of what was happening to her. Something new, that > she had never heard of, and she was going off to learn it? You would > have to be pretty soul-dead not to be eager to learn magic. Harry > would probably have been more excited if he didn't think they would > kick him out of the school once he got there. Shaun: That could be part of it - but she seems even more eager than the others. She doesn't just seem to have devoured her books before she gets to Hogwarts, she's inhaled them! > Phoenixgod2000: > > I think Snape would probably be a pretty discouraging teacher for just > about everyone sort of a Hermione level of motivation. Makes you > wonder how many potion masters have come out of his classes and how > many students would be glad not to get an O so they don't have to take > his class anymore. Shaun: Discouraging to a student with her motivation? It could happen, but generally it works the other way around. Provided an EG/PG child is well balanced and hasn't already been turned off learning, they tend to react to such a teacher as a challenge. Generally school has been so easy for them, that they have never had the chance to push themselves - most teachers are satisfied with a child who does better than average - and if you're capable of far more than that, you probably don't get the chance to prove it. A teacher who is very hard to satisfy - that's the challenge. A "Hmm, that wasn't quite as hopeless as I expected" can mean a *LOT* more than a "That was the most spectacular thing I ever saw" to such a child. Now, I'm not saying the first thing is a good thing to say - but it can actually be very motivating to these kids. When all you've ever got from teachers is meaningless praise for things you found easy - then a teacher who doesn't hand out praise even for real achievementds can be refreshing. It's less fake, anyway. > > And while teachers like Snape play a role in that - so do teachers > > like McGonagall, teachers like Sprout, Binns, Flitwick, Lupin, > > Moody(Crouch)... all teachers who seem to put learning first. They > > don't necessarily ignore other things - it's just they are not the > > first priority. > > Phoenixgod2000: > > I guess my argument would be that there is no evidence that Snape puts > learning as any sort of priority. Shaun: My view is that Umbridge's statement in OotP is the best evidence we have. 'Well, the class seem fairly advanced for their level,' she said briskly to Snape's back. Though I would question whether it is advisable to teach them a potion like the Strengthening Solution. I think the Ministry would prefer it if that was removed from the syllabus.' Umbridge doesn't hand out praise for no reason. There's certainly no reason to believe she is going easy on Snape. And she describes the class as fairly advanced. Snape has been their teacher for five years. He deserves credit for that, as a teacher. And as it's unlikely he inspired most of the class to great things by his ready wit and sparkling personality, I think we have to accept that his teaching is what has made them advanced for their level. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun May 1 05:23:28 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 01:23:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and Snape/Definition of Snape-like teacher Message-ID: <1c9.27c96ffa.2fa5c1d0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128346 In a message dated 4/30/2005 9:52:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com writes: But Snape does NOT leave her alone , he makes her shut up every time she tries to answer his questions. ========== Sherrie: As did my "Snapealike" teachers. They would only call upon me in extremis, when everyone else was simply staring with blank expressions for at least a minute. (Direct quote: "Why you boobs! You look as if the mind has left the body!") They KNEW that I knew the answers - the point was to make everyone ELSE learn them, as well, not to depend on me to always answer, since I wouldn't be doing their exams for them. It's got to be a trial for a teacher, to have a student like Hermione (or me) in their classes. Very bright and eager to show off her knowledge, intimidating all the other students ("I'm not gonna answer - what if my answer's wrong? Hermione will know!"), with a tendency to want to help other students...even when specifically instructed to cease doing so (Neville, anyone?). BTW, Alla - one of my Snapelike teachers also taught my mother when she was in high school. Didn't like her, figured out I was her daughter through family resemblance and some checking in the school files. I spent that school year proving I was NOT my mother... Sherrie (who's suddenly realized that except for one math teacher and one in elementary school, all her Snape teachers taught history...) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 05:56:44 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 05:56:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape/Definition of Snape-like teacher /a bit of Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128347 >>Alla: >It seems to me that Lupin IS perfectly aware of his danger to the students , no?< Betsy: Considering that Lupin left his office without taking his necessary meds and went to wander the school grounds on a night of a full moon, I would agree that *no* Lupin is *not* perfectly aware of his danger. (Or he is and doesn't give a damn - either way, the kids get eaten.) Betsy, who has her devil's advocate cap firmly in place. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sun May 1 06:32:29 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 06:32:29 -0000 Subject: Oh, The Possibilities! (Re: The prophecy - a maverick view....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I have tended not to post on the topic of the prophecy because, after > it came into the public domain nearly two years ago, it has been the > subject of endless discussion. Folk who have joined the group over > that period may not know that threads on this are rife because of the > convoluted searching system of Yahoo. Having been reading some of the > latest comments and ruminating on them, I thought I would add a few > thoughts of my own which may, or may not, be relevant... > > > > To put one more ingredient into the recipe, the use of the > word "live". In the Macbeth prophecy, we saw that the use of the > word "born" was not what we expected. Coming at "live" from a > different angle, Jesus remarked at one point "I have come that they > may have life and have it to the full" (John 10:10). Could this mean > that, say, Harry could not live life to the full, to have a > satisfying and normal life while Voldemort remained and had not been > dealt with? Could this be that his life will be constricted and > hedged about and thus not as fulfilled as it ought to be for the > moment? This might be a possibility to answer the paradox of both > living while both also survive. > > I think I've confused myself even more now .. John: If you want to spend a great many more happy hours confusing yourself even further, assume that the prophecy applies to three people. Assume also, and this is the confusing bit, that terms such as "him" and "he" and "Dark Lord" and "other" need not apply consistently to the one person. For instance: "The one (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) approaches, born as the seventh month dies, born to those who have thrice defied him (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) and the Dark Lord (Harry/Voldy/Third Person [need not be the same person as before!]) will mark him (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) as his (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) equal, but he (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) will have power the Dark Lord (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) knows not " and so forth. "The Dark Lord" might refer to Voldy in one case, and then to *someone else* when the term is later mentioned again. Get it?? John. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 1 06:54:16 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 06:54:16 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128349 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: Lupinlore: > To answer some of the questions, let me also acknowledge there really > is no generic Christianity. The religion has thousands of variants, > some of which violently disagree with one another. Let me answer from > the perspective of my own branch, Eastern Orthodoxy (which has some > strong similarities with High Church Anglicanism, as both are very > influenced by Patristic sources). Geoff: Speaking as an evangelical Protestant, I would disagree with you here. The absolute basic core of Christianity is summed up very simply by Jesus. There is the statement about the two great commandments, firstly to love God with all your heart,mind and soul and secondly to love your neighbour (effectively anyone who you come in contact with) as yourself and then his statement that "God so loved the world that he sent his only son that whoever believes in him will not persih but have eternal life." Differences and quibbles between denominations arise from less important matters such as ritual and structure and I have found across many years that true Christians who accept the very basics I have mentioned can agree on their faith. AyanEva wrote: > I know I just stated my confusion in another thread, but Christmas > and Easter ARE pagan holidays. And it's very much in line with what > pagans would practice (I used to practice Wicca, but I've mostly > lapsed). Geoff: Excuse me but Christmas and Easter are NOT pagan holidays. By definition, they are Christian festivals. What you are doing is to confuse the fact that when they came into being, they coincided with pagan festivals for the simlple reason that, especially in the Roman Empire, the only time that Christian believers such as slaves could get time to hold special festivals together was at the time of the main feast days hence they came to be traditionally held at the times they are. Re the Wizarding World marking Christmas etc., it indicates to me that the festivals have some meaning for them. Otherwise they would use a different name... Here in the UK, we are now getting one or two local authorities who refuse to mark Christmas on PC grounds and celebrate the "Winter Festival" or something equally vague. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sun May 1 07:17:53 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 07:17:53 -0000 Subject: Snape and Adanced Potions? (was Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Phoenixgod: > > Tough is good. Kids need tough sometimes. But I don't think that > > Snape has any sort of teaching style because I don't think he > > wants to be a teacher. I would lay down money that there isn't a > > kid in one of his classrooms that doesn't know that he would > > rather be somewhere else, doing something else, than teaching > > them. > > > SSSusan: > What will interest me is what we see in *Advanced* Potions in books > 6 & (assuming he survives) 7. I see why you have interpreted Snape > this way, Phoenixgod, but I do wonder whether he might not be a > little different in Advanced Potions, where the Dunderheads have > been weeded out. Seeing him in AP will give us a better sense of > whether Snape really would rather be anywhere other than teaching > students... or whether he'd rather be anywhere other than teaching > dunderheads. > > On the other hand, if Harry finagles (sp?) his way into Advanced > Potions via some other route than earning it, it might skew our > results a bit, as it were: we might not see how Snape really is > with advanced students; we might, rather, just see more of surly > Snape, bent on humiliating Harry. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan John: Oh, there'll always be a few "dunderheads" who slip through the net, yet this is nevertheless a very interesting point. I once had a teacher who, as I recall, treated us younger students with disinterest, even disdain. Then, when she was our teacher in final year Chemistry, it was all business. She was fully dedicated to the task at hand, intent on helping all of her students utilise their potential. Can't picture even Advanced-Potions!Snape taking the likes of Harry and Neville under his wing, but a class environment demonstrating that Snape gets at least *something* out of this teaching caper? That I certainly can envisage. John. From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Sun May 1 08:54:40 2005 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 08:54:40 -0000 Subject: Snape and Adanced Potions? (was Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128351 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > On the other hand, if Harry finagles (sp?) his way into Advanced > > Potions via some other route than earning it, it might skew our > > results a bit, as it were: we might not see how Snape really is > > with advanced students; we might, rather, just see more of surly > > Snape, bent on humiliating Harry. > > > > Siriusly Snapey Susan > > John: > Oh, there'll always be a few "dunderheads" who slip through the net, > yet this is nevertheless a very interesting point. I once had a > teacher who, as I recall, treated us younger students with > disinterest, even disdain. Then, when she was our teacher in final > year Chemistry, it was all business. She was fully dedicated to the > task at hand, intent on helping all of her students utilise their > potential. > > Can't picture even Advanced-Potions!Snape taking the likes of Harry > and Neville under his wing, but a class environment demonstrating > that Snape gets at least *something* out of this teaching caper? > That I certainly can envisage. > > John. I think we'll see the nastier side of Snape we haven't seen. JKR did hint there is a lot more to him than meets the eye, which will make our sympathy for him in OOTP waver. What's the Advanced Potions Author name: Libilis Borage or something? Anyway Borage is an interesting herb. The crusaders used to drink borage infused wine before the went off into battle. It was said to increase their courage. And it was also used to lessen the stress of students. doodlingtea: my LJ comm http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=doodlingtea From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Sun May 1 09:07:58 2005 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 09:07:58 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > > Lupinlore: > > To answer some of the questions, let me also acknowledge there really > > is no generic Christianity. The religion has thousands of variants, > > some of which violently disagree with one another. Let me answer from > > the perspective of my own branch, Eastern Orthodoxy (which has some > > strong similarities with High Church Anglicanism, as both are very > > influenced by Patristic sources). > > Geoff: > Speaking as an evangelical Protestant, I would disagree with you here. > The absolute basic core of Christianity is summed up very simply by > Jesus. There is the statement about the two great commandments, firstly > to love God with all your heart,mind and soul and secondly to love your > neighbour (effectively anyone who you come in contact with) as yourself > and then his statement that "God so loved the world that he sent his > only son that whoever believes in him will not persih but have eternal > life." Differences and quibbles between denominations arise from less > important matters such as ritual and structure and I have found across > many years that true Christians who accept the very basics I have > mentioned can agree on their faith. > > AyanEva wrote: > > I know I just stated my confusion in another thread, but Christmas > > and Easter ARE pagan holidays. And it's very much in line with what > > pagans would practice (I used to practice Wicca, but I've mostly > > lapsed). > > Geoff: > Excuse me but Christmas and Easter are NOT pagan holidays. By > definition, they are Christian festivals. > > What you are doing is to confuse the fact that when they came into > being, they coincided with pagan festivals for the simlple reason that, > especially in the Roman Empire, the only time that Christian believers > such as slaves could get time to hold special festivals together was at > the time of the main feast days hence they came to be traditionally > held at the times they are. > > Re the Wizarding World marking Christmas etc., it indicates to me that > the festivals have some meaning for them. Otherwise they would use a > different name... Here in the UK, we are now getting one or two local > authorities who refuse to mark Christmas on PC grounds and celebrate > the "Winter Festival" or something equally vague. Wasn't there a pagan goddess with the name similar to Easter? Anyway, Christmas ans easter aren't papan, but some of the traditions based on those holidays are stemmed from Pagan rituals. For example, Christmas tress and I think the giving of eggs. And the Christmas date, the 26th replaced an old pagan holiday on the same date, when the Christrams were deciding the calender, and when the feast day would occur, because they didn't know the exact date Jesus was born. Plus I thought it was rather clever, replacing pagan holidays with the Christian ones, it gave Christianity some publicity, so to speak. doodlingtea: my LJ art comm http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=doodlingtea From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sun May 1 10:06:01 2005 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 10:06:01 -0000 Subject: DD's failure to kill Voldemort at MOM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > > He didn't try to kill LV b/c he believes there are worse things than death? What kind of justification is that for the persons LV >>will torture or kill after his escape from the MOM???? Naama: In the Edinburgh chat, JKR said that that wasn't the reason why DD didn't attempt to kill DD. In fact, she presents this question as one of the two main questions that we should be asking ourselves (how did Voldemort survive in GH and why didn't DD try to kill him in the MoM). > > > > Why wouldn't DD try to spare the WW (and the Muggle world for >>that matter) any further death/destruction caused by LV? > > GEO: Because no doubt Dumbledore knows that Voldemort's immortality is still intact and any successful attempt at destroying the Dark Lord's body would still leave his malignant spriti intact to return again and the White Wizard probably wishes a more permanent solution >to the Voldemort problem. Naama: I agree with this - partly. I think that if it were the case, then DD does have a moral obligation to reduce Voldemort to vapor - and save lives now. In fact, if you look back to PS, DD told Harry that the right thing to do is to keep on delaying Voldemort's return. My solution: Voldemort is as immortal now as he was in GH - i.e., AK- ing him wouldn't kill him. But, in addition - DD knows that when Voldemort returns, he will be stronger than before. If you remember Trelawneys prophecy in PoA - the Dark Lord will return stronger and more terrible than ever . I like this solution because only then is it the right moral choice for DD to make. (And I like my DD good and shiny.) (I also like it because it fits with my snakey!Voldmort theory... so maybe I'm a little biased...) Naama From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 1 11:46:43 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 11:46:43 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128354 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maria" wrote: > Anyway, Christmas ans easter aren't papan, but some of the traditions > based on those holidays are stemmed from Pagan rituals. For example, > Christmas tress and I think the giving of eggs. Geoff: I'm not sure about Christmas trees.The tradition in the UK was introduced from Germany by Prince Albert, the consort of Queen Victoria. Eggs, however, are used as a representation of the rock rolled away from the tomb of Jesus in the garden. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 12:13:36 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 05:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050501121336.99918.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128355 Wasn't there a pagan goddess with the name similar to Easter? Anyway, Christmas ans easter aren't papan, but some of the traditions based on those holidays are stemmed from Pagan rituals. For example, Christmas tress and I think the giving of eggs. And the Christmas date, the 26th replaced an old pagan holiday on the same date, when the Christrams were deciding the calender, and when the feast day would occur, because they didn't know the exact date Jesus was born. Plus I thought it was rather clever, replacing pagan holidays with the Christian ones, it gave Christianity some publicity, so to speak. doodlingtea Normally I do not jump in on any christian threads, but here goes. Actually the goddess that you speak of is actually not a goddess but the name of the "easter" holiday - Ostara. Btw- our "christmas" is Yule. It goes even further than trees and eggs. Yule log, mistletoe, holly, silver and gold (colors for the god and goddess), red and green (for the same reasons), the lights on the tree and on houses (sympathetic magik to bring back the light and banish the nights getting longer - our holidays are based on seasons and the sun and moon). That is just a very, very few from Yule - and some of the less "contrversial and offensive". Remember - Jesus was born in the summer in the middle east. As far as Ostara - since when do we celebrate the torture and murder of a man with chicks and bunnies? Chicks, bunnies, eggs, pastel colors, etc. I could go on for days and weeks with the pagan holidays and how they relate to christian ones but that has no bearing on Harry Potter. JKR is a christian. I am not. I have written and had published several short stories. I am Pagan. My stories have nothing to do with being a Pagan. Does that make me any less a Pagan? No. JKR has written a story that is based - in a very small measure - on a fantasy version of the Pagan world. Does that make her a Pagan? No. Does that make anyone who enjoys the books Pagan? No. People, you do not have to justify or infuse christianity into Harry Potter in order to not feel guilty about enjoying a work of fiction that has a Pagan (though purely fantasy) theme to it. Just enjoy!! We are all different - enjoy the differences!! moonmyyst (who is going back to lurk and find a place to hide from the flame war that is sure to insue!!) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at gmail.com Sun May 1 12:15:30 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:15:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The prophecy - a maverick view.... In-Reply-To: References: <000001c54dd1$c48d8600$0fc6f554@janis> Message-ID: <80f25c3a05050105153800745e@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128356 Geoff Bannister wrote: We are told that the > one "with the power to vanquish" the Dark Lord would be born at the > end of July. As has been pointed out on numerous > occasions, "vanquish" in no way means to kill. My dictionary > gives "to defeat thoroughly, conquer, overcome, overwhelm, rout, > trounce". > > This has already happened ? more than once. Voldemort was vanquished > at Godric's Hollow; but was it by the "one with the power"? > Continuing, if Harry is the one, then he repeated this defeat when > Quirrell failed to kill him and Voldemort was banished from a > physical form again. So he has been vanquished twice at least. OK, he > returned in "Goblet of Fire" but does not seem to have recaptured his > earlier powers and influence to the same degree. So, in a way, this > part of the prophecy has been met. If you consider the thirteen and a > half years between Godric's Hollow and the rebirth of Voldemort, the > Dark Lord was out of commission from late 1982 to whenever he managed > to possess Quirrell a year or so before the events of "Philosopher's > Stone" and then out of action physically from then until the rebirth > spell was activated on 24th June 1995. So Harry has demonstrated the > power to vanquish twice; when next? This interpretation conflicts with the one I just posted last night, suggesting that Harry had escaped Voldemort but did not show himself to be LV's equal in doing so (ergo, he was not vanquished). But, as the matter is far from resolved, in my view, I'm just as happy to argue from the perspective that Harry *is* the One. I even cited the same definition (or one very similar). It just goes to show what troublesome things words are. ;-) I do tend to think that the common usage of the word vanquish refers to a final defeat, though, rather than an interim defeat in a much longer battle, so that when the prophecy speaks of vanquishing, it means that only the One can eliminate Voldemort as a threat. (Otherwise, Dumbledore could be considered to have vanquished Voldemort at the DoM.) > But then we reach "and either must die at the hand of the other for > neither can live while the other survives". This to me is a > contradiction in terms. Both Harry and Voldemort are alive. This > contradicts the prophecy; one of them should be dead and one should > be surviving?. So what do we make of this? Do we allow it to drive us > round the twist while we try to analyse what our Delphic Professor > has said? And then the question of one dying at the hand of the > other is open to so many interpretations. Harry could attempt to > kill Voldemort or vice versa; the latter has already had several > attempts in one way or another. A situation could be created to cause > a death perhaps by misadventure, not direct killing; Harry or > Voldemort could attempt to lure the other into a trap or a dangerous > location. Harry (for I consider he is less likely to try a direct > attack) could be attacked by Voldemort and kill him in self-defence?.. But, if the meaning of "die" is fluid, couldn't the Dark Lord "die" leaving Tom Riddle alive? I'm sure this has been suggested many times, though I've missed most of the prophecy discussions. Perhaps what Harry needs to do is to extinguish the powers that Voldemort transferred to him, or perhaps all of Voldemort's powers. Without his powers Voldemort could not be the Dark Lord. > To put one more ingredient into the recipe, the use of the > word "live". In the Macbeth prophecy, we saw that the use of the > word "born" was not what we expected. Coming at "live" from a > different angle, Jesus remarked at one point "I have come that they > may have life and have it to the full" (John 10:10). Could this mean > that, say, Harry could not live life to the full, to have a > satisfying and normal life while Voldemort remained and had not been > dealt with? Could this be that his life will be constricted and > hedged about and thus not as fulfilled as it ought to be for the > moment? This might be a possibility to answer the paradox of both > living while both also survive. One possibility (also probably stated many times before) is that neither is fully alive because of their connection. Voldemort has left a portion of himself in Harry, and Harry is burdened by Voldemort's presence. (The scar does not merely mark Harry as an equal; it is a marker of Voldemort's continued presence. It's not just the pain that ebbs Harry's ability to live; Voldemort seems to influence his dreams (what about the one where Snape in Quirrell's turban urges Harry to transfer to Slytherin?). The reason neither can live while the other survives, perhaps, is because Voldemort is so full of hatred, and fearing death above all things, cannot coexist with Harry, who is infused with love and the willingness to sacrifice for good. Or, to put it simply, good cannot coexist with evil. They must be constantly at war until one vanquishes the other. However, one thing bothers me about this explanation: Aside from the dreams, Harry seems to have no awareness of Voldemort's presence until OOP. I guess the counterargument is that until the rebirthing, Voldemort's presence was largely dormant because Voldemort was "not truly alive" (PS/SS ch. 17) at that point. But, even in OOP, Voldemort's presence doesn't seem to prevent Harry from living normally in blissful unawareness of the Voldemort invasion. It's only in extreme moments that Harry notices at all, for example, when Avery is being punished or when he feels Voldemort's glee at the DEs' escape from Azkaban, except for when Voldemort is deliberately trying to use the connection. Finally, why do you call this a maverick view? Misinterpretation is the engine of many a classic tale, as you point out yourself. Indeed, the main point of my earlier post was really that we can't take Dumbledore's interpretation at face value. Debbie who has never posted about the prophecy before now From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun May 1 12:24:15 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:24:15 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christianity in HP Message-ID: <195.3e5bba1a.2fa6246f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128357 In a message dated 5/1/2005 7:47:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: I'm not sure about Christmas trees.The tradition in the UK was introduced from Germany by Prince Albert, the consort of Queen Victoria. ----------------------------------------------------- Sherrie: The tradition of decorating trees goes back to the Druids - though it wasn't restricted to Yule, of course. ---------------------------------------------------- Eggs, however, are used as a representation of the rock rolled away from the tomb of Jesus in the garden. ---------------------------------------------------- Sherrie: Eggs have been used for millenia as a symbol of the renewal of life - which, I suppose, ought to give impetus to the H/G shippers, since it's Ginny who delivers Harry's chocolate egg, then shares it with him... Honestly, I can see religious traditions in the Wizarding World being as varied as those in the Muggle world - it may simply be something of which Harry is unaware, as it hasn't impinged on his worldview yet. And if Harry is unaware of something, we the readers must necessarily be so, as well. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun May 1 14:15:01 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 14:15:01 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: <4274F469.18350.46965DA@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128359 Shaun: Ah, but you see, for some of us who had Snape like teachers who taught us very, very effectively, and to whom we may me extremely grateful for that (even if sometimes, we may hate their guts at the same time!), it's rather hard to sit back and watch a style of teaching that worked for us to be dismissed by people based on the fact that they see things differently. Of course, they have the right to see it however they see it - but that is why I defend Snape. Because I really do believe that the way he teaches is a valid way of teaching, and I hate to see anyone - even a literary construct - wrongly criticised. I don't think Snape is a good person. But I do think a valid case can be made for him being a good teacher - and he has to little else going for him, I don't like to see people strip that away as well (-8 That doesn't make it a bad style. Just because a particular child's learning needs are in the minority, doesn't make them any less important than the needs of the majority. SSSusan: At what point do we draw the line and say, "This teacher reaches *enough* students that we can consider him a GOOD teacher"? I think there is plenty of evidence that Snape's style is not effective with Harry & Neville, and I believe that Hermione learns in spite of him. It may be that Snape's methods work well with some of the members of his class. The students are passing and getting decent marks on their exams, indeed. But what I always come back to is, "Could the students be doing BETTER with someone else?" For this, I often find myself comparing Snape to McGonagall. Both are strict, both are stern, both brook no monkey business, both are quite competent in their disciplines. But which one REACHES more students? *IF* the answer to that question is McGonagall, then I have to quibble with calling Snape a good teacher. To me, if Snape's methods only work extremely well with a few, if they only bring out the best in 1 or 2 or 3 students, then I think Snape would make an excellent *tutor* -- for those students ? but it does not make him an excellent teacher for a whole class. IOW, while we shouldn't neglect the needs of the few, we shouldn't neglect the needs of the many either. Of course, to answer all these questions, we would need assessment tools and evaluative outcome results and we don't have much of that. ;-) Shaun: But Hogwarts as presented in the novels is a highly traditional school - founded on highly traditional teaching methods and traditional educational ideas. *Within that context*, there is considered to be no need for a teacher to be nice, kind, or stable. These things were not considered important in the type of schools that Hogwarts is based on. SSSusan: I fully agree with you that a teacher doesn't need to be nice or buddy-buddy with students. OTOH, there is a big difference between being nice or kind and being cruel and humiliating with students. McGonagall is not particularly *nice,* but she is also not cruel. Snape is. And I would argue that cruelty and humiliation can *interfere* with students' ability to learn in a way which firmness, strictness, even coldness, do not. Shaun: Snape is a master of his art. I'm sure he wants to teach - but what he wants to teach are the best students - he wants to teach the NEWT students who meet his high standards for entry. To do that he has to get them through the lower levels. And that is hard, and that is dull, and that is barely worthy of his time. SSSusan: Ah, some common ground! I addressed this in 128343. What we see of Snape in Advanced Potions should tell us a great deal about whether this is true. Siriusly Snapey Susan From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun May 1 14:29:00 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 07:29:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things I like about Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c54e5a$1f68eb40$fb1bf204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 128360 On April 18, phoenix God wrote: In the interest of saying some positive things about HP I have composed a partial list of things I like about Harry Potter. Enjoy Sherry now: I know this is an old thread, but I wanted to answer at the time and couldn't due to computer issues. I'd like to throw in my HP likes--or some of them anyway. There are too many to list! 1. I became hooked on Harry Potter from the first paragraph, describing the stuffy pompous Dursleys in such a comic way. I began to giggle and I was hooked for good. 2. Owl post. I want an owl to deliver my mail! now if I could just train it to read the mail too, I wouldn't have to worry about finding readers. 3. Hagrid. Unlike some others here, I've never found Hagrid to be particularly bumbly or comic relief. he's funny and loyal and brave and kind. I love his sensitivity. I loved the description of him and the motor bike, as well as his entrance into the hut on the rock. 4. Harry's first glimpse of diagon alley. 5. the Weasley clan. all of them! 6. The ceiling in the great hall, enchanted to look like the sky outside. In fact, though I am blind, JKR has written such vivid visual description, that I feel I could close my eyes and almost see them. Some things that fall into that category besides the ceiling would be the Gryffindor common room, Dumbledore, the portraits and how they move around, the sorting hat--just to name a few. Very few authors write so well as to give me a visual, sort of, image. In fact, I never read anyone besides Laura Ingalls wilder who could get me so visually engaged in a story as JKR. 7. The Burrow. 8. Mrs. Weasley's reaction to the kids coming back in the car after rescuing Harry, her contrast between the reaction to the boys and Harry and filling up his plate when they tell her he was being starved. 9. Love the Ridikulus charm! What a way to help kids get over their fears. if I had children who were afraid of something, I'd try using this method, without the wand and incantation! The same for the Patronus charm. 10. All Hagrid's critters, especially Buckbeak. and the list could go on and on. I would say that an overall thing I like about he books is that they teach, to me anyway, that even though the wizarding world has all this magic, it is a tool and can't solve all their problems. magic may be a part of solving the problems, but the things that really save Harry and the gang are friendship, loyalty, courage, hard work, love. So even with magic, they aren't all that far away from the real world. This is one thing I tell people who express doubt about the HP books and fear that they teach "evil witchcraft" to children and that magic will solve all their problems. Sherry From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun May 1 15:37:35 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:37:35 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and her parents In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <905936959.20050501083735@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128361 Thursday, April 28, 2005, 6:29:41 AM, ravenclaw001 wrote: r> One thing that AFAIK hasn't been brought up is that Hermione's r> parents may be so jammed-up with something or other that they don't r> have time for their daughter... I've been interested by the ideas about Hermione's parents, but personally I prefer to invoke Occum's Razor on this one: I've been re-listening to _OOtP_ in a "countdown" to _HBP_'s release, and in Chapter 11 (P 219, American Ed.), Dean Thomas says, "My parents are Muggles... They don't know nothing about no deaths at Hogwarts, because I'm not stupid enough to tell them." I'm imagining Hermione (and other Muggle-borns) silently adopting the same policy, lest their Muggle parents panic and "go Dursley" on them. -- Dave From finwitch at yahoo.com Sun May 1 16:09:01 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:09:01 -0000 Subject: Oh, The Possibilities! (Re: The prophecy - a maverick view....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128362 > > John: > If you want to spend a great many more happy hours confusing > yourself even further, assume that the prophecy applies to three > people. Assume also, and this is the confusing bit, that terms such > as "him" and "he" and "Dark Lord" and "other" need not apply > consistently to the one person. For instance: > > "The one (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) with the power to vanquish the > Dark Lord (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) approaches, born as the seventh > month dies, born to those who have thrice defied him > (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) and the Dark Lord (Harry/Voldy/Third > Person [need not be the same person as before!]) will mark him > (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) as his (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) equal, > but he (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) will have power the Dark Lord > (Harry/Voldy/Third Person) knows not " > > and so forth. "The Dark Lord" might refer to Voldy in one case, and > then to *someone else* when the term is later mentioned again. Finwitch: Indeed it could be. As the prophecy does not use NAMES at all, it could very well refer to anyone. Even the 'Born as the 7th month dies' is not clear. It could mean late July (Harry/Neville), it could mean late September (the name in Latin means seventh) or the end of the 'seventh month counting from the moment the prophecy was given'. It doesn't mention any year... And... well, Harry vanquished Voldemort as Voldemort 'marked him' - thus that happened. As for the 'either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives' - could easily have referred to Harry/Quirrelmort at the end of PS. Finwitch From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun May 1 16:08:20 2005 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:08:20 -0000 Subject: Nearly The One - Was:Re: Prophecy wording - why not Neville? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128363 Great Elder One's post has sparked an idea for me, because even though it's true that Neville is not quite related to Voldemort in the same way Harry is, there are still certain similarities. > GEO: It was > Voldemort's attack on Harry that left the boy with the mark and some > of Voldemort's own powers including parseltongue, but it also left > Harry's life very similar to that of the young Tom Riddle Jr: > orphaned, being raised by muggles who they obviously were not > particularly fond of, being "saved" through the Hogwarts letters, > having their shared wand cores and getting the opportunity to be > sorted into slytherin house, which Harry thankfully avoided. Neville > shares none of these similarities with Voldemort aside from the lack > of a mark. Annemehr: I feel comfortably sure that Harry is The One. But, need Neville be either The One or Not The One? Might it make a difference that Neville is Nearly The One? Neville did actually grow up nearly an orphan. He was not raised by Muggles, but he did have a more difficult upbringing by his "formidable grandmother" than he presumably would have had with his parents (remember that Harry recognised Alice in Moody's photograph by her "round, friendly face"). Even more, Neville's family thought he was "all Muggle" until the day he was dropped out of the window and bounced. Though Hogwarts was known to Neville, it still must have been a great relief to him when his letter arrived - a rescue from his gran's disappointment if he hadn't been magical enough. Neville was born almost at the end of the seventh month, to parents who did defy the Dark Lord three times. Many of us will remember the heyday of the MemoryCharmed!Neville theories -- that his memory was so bad, not naturally, but because he'd either received too strong a memory charm as a toddler, or had a memory charm broken. These theories have lost some of their visibility of late, but still it's easy to wonder if something had happened to him to affect his mind -- which would bear the shadow of a similarity to the fact that Harry's mind is affected by his scar. Whether it's a memory charm, or something else (even if it's "only" a repressed memory), there's the possibility that Neville was marked in some way by the Death Eaters. Being marked by Death Eaters is like being almost marked by Voldemort, no? Almost the right birth, almost the right parents, almost a Muggle, almost an orphan, maybe almost marked -- Neville really is an echo of Harry. Will his role be an echo of Harry's role, as the secondary hero, and above all the others? Does the fact that Neville partly fits the prophecy (if such is indeed the fact) have a true, magical significance? I'd like that. I wondered "but what about Neville?" the first time I read every book after PS/SS. Annemehr From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 16:24:56 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:24:56 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape/Definition of Snape-like teacher /a bit of Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128364 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>Alla: > > >It seems to me that Lupin IS perfectly aware of his danger to the > students , no?< > > Betsy: > Considering that Lupin left his office without taking his necessary > meds and went to wander the school grounds on a night of a full moon, > I would agree that *no* Lupin is *not* perfectly aware of his danger. > (Or he is and doesn't give a damn - either way, the kids get eaten.) > > Betsy, who has her devil's advocate cap firmly in place. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Again, I have to agree with Betsy on this point. This is a part of the story that bothered me greatly. Why would Lupin do that? He had to know it would be a full moon, he's been a werwolf since he was a child, though I can see it being said that He wanted to save Harry etc because he though Sirius was going to kill him, or time was importaint, he had to get there fast etc etc, but really, how would be be saving Harry if he became a werwolf?? I wondered why he didn't go straight to Dumbledore? Why didn't Lupin rush off and inform him, think of how much easier it would have been if he had done that. Now, I'm not taking up for Snape here in this situation, I'm just trying to view it from an objective point of view, Snape did fly off the handle in the shack, but, I also wonder, in his anger, might he have also been afraid. If I remember correcting he was taking the potion to Lupin, when Snape found the map and saw everyone in the shack. Woulden't Snape know that Lupin would be turning into a werwolf that night?? So I wonder by seeing Sirius's name and Harry's name, and then also Lupin, what might he have though??? I do not like the fact that he did not listen to the kids, but I can also see that perhaps he may have been scared, and angry at the same time, and seeing Sirius again in the flesh may have just pushed him past the breaking point. I can't help but feel that Lupin was not responsible when he did that, and I think a werwolf is much more dangerous that say Snape glaring at you from across the room and fussing at you that you don't pay attention because the color of your potion is green instead of pink...meh...but that just me. KarentheUnicorn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun May 1 16:39:19 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 16:39:19 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: <4274F469.18350.46965DA@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128365 Shaun: > Does Snape care if anyone learns potions? > > Oh, yes. Oh, yes, he cares. Potions seem to be the one thing he is > most passionate about. > Severus Snape may not care about much. But he cares about potions. > To him, it is an art - and it's an art he wants to live. > Snape is a master of his art. I'm sure he wants to teach - but > what he wants to teach are the best students - he wants to teach > the NEWT students who meet his high standards for entry. To do > that he has to get them through the lower levels. And that is > hard, and that is dull, and that is barely worthy of his time. Jen: I snipped your RL example of your Latin teacher for brevity, Shaun, but it was a good example of how a teacher can feel passionate about a subject and grow bitter over the years teaching students who have no interest in the subject or who are simply in class to fill the requirements. Surely passion for your life's work is frustrated by that constant apathy. And Snape definitely appears to feel he's wasting his art and passion on a bunch of 'dunderheads'; his bitterness and sense of fultility is palpable. The difference with Snape is he is truly trapped as a teacher at Hogwarts. Certainly now with LV's return there is no other place for Snape to go where he is safe. Like Trelawney, whom DD insists stay at Hogwarts after her sacking, Snape is trapped in his position. Must be like Dante's rings of hell for him. And *that* is what I believe causes him to be a sub-par teacher. Not only is he bitter about teaching dunderheads, the choices he made as a young man limit him to a position offering him little release for his art. And I'm certain that was true long before LV returned. What position was there for an ex-Death Eater with no money and influence, even with Dumbledore vouching for him? Unlike Lucius, Snape could not blend easily back into the WW using his pocketbook or claim the Imperio. His only choice was to take the position offered to him at Hogwarts. I wonder what Snape could have done with his art, his passion, if he had different choices. He's bitter about his job, he's bitter toward the thankless students, and if he ever allowed it in a quiet moment, bitter toward Dumbledore. That frustration only increases when Harry comes along. Another reminder of all his mistakes, his losses, who he could have been without 'ex-Death Eater' hanging over his head. So I don't argue with you that Snape knows his subject extremely well, that he is able to impart his knowledge to a degree where certain students excel, or that his intimidation of the students is always a failure. But he brings his personal bitterness and futility into the classroom every day, and that is what mars his performance as a teacher, what separates him from McGonagall, Sprout or Flitwick in his effectiveness as a teacher for the majority of students. He simply doesn't want to be there, and that shines through loud and clear. Jen From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun May 1 17:30:51 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 17:30:51 -0000 Subject: Trial of Snape/ cultural differences between WW and ours In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128366 Alla said: (after major snippage) Several things going on here. I said many times that I don't think > that they are mutually exclusive. > > First - I absolutely ENJOY Snape as part of the story. I do NOT want > him out of the story, absolutely not. I would also never say that > JKR should not write him as mean character. > > But, I absolutely, most definitely WANT Snape to change at the END > of the series, not now. I will be dissapointed, if he will not > change. I think it is my right as a reader to think about what > direction I want the character to go. In fact, the hope that Snape > will change is what keeps me from thinking of him as "love to hate" > character and instead I am still on "love/hate" level. > > Am I making sense? As JKR's creation, as literary character, I will > always like Snape. From within the story, if he will be the same at > the end, I will be annoyed. Ginger: Ah, ha! Putting it that way, I do see that we have a similar outlook. I have envisioned numerous outcomes for most of the characters (not Madam Marsh, but she's probably going to get in there sometime) in all sorts of situations. I have tried to figure out the last battle: how they will get there, what they will do there, and where they will go from there. Mental fan-fic, if you will. There are a ton of things I'd like to see. I doubt JKR has many, if any at all, in mind. Before OoP, I wanted to see Neville come out strong, and he did! I wanted to see Harry and Sirius sharing a bachelor pad for a couple of months after Hogwarts and LV's defeat. That won't happen. Then there's ships, but I won't go on about that. I have imagined Snape going on to a "potion development lab" type of place. I have imagined him dying (sad, I know). I even joked to someone that he would marry Ginny and live next door to Ron and Hermione on one side and Bill and Remus on the other and during the Quidditch off-season and have Harry stay on as a guest and all get together for tea. I think it had something to do with a soul transplant after a dementor sucking. (Actually, it was longer than that, and off the cuff, so I don't remember it exactly, but that's the gist of it.) It seems from what you said, that you have your "dreams" for Snape, but still see him as JKR's character to do with as she pleases. I do the same. There's a fine line between dream and demand. We dream. Others I have seen demand. It's the demanding that puts me off. At the end of the day, it's JKR's world. That's where the whole "trial" comes in. Are we "trying" a character in a book for acting in a way that furthers the plot and sets a certain mood for the scenes in which he participates (and which he does at the author's command)? Or are we "trying" a person for "crimes" he has committed, even though we can't agree if they are even crimes? > Ginger, (previously) > who was a very Snape-like Sunday School teacher at one time, > > and it went well. > > Alla: > > Hmmm, please allow me to challenge this phrase. :-) Let me explain > why. > To me the definition of Snape-like teacher must ABSOLUTELY include > the fact that said teacher has a grudge against dead parent of one > of his/her student AND because of that goes out of his way to make > the said student life absolutely miserable. Ginger: My definition of a Snape-like teacher is one who doesn't put up with any disrespect, wandering attention, or general tomfoolery. The students learn whether they want to or not. That is the teacher's job, and if the kids don't make it easy, that's part of the challenge. Example: If they didn't stay in their seats, I would plop them down in their chairs and say, "The seat of your pants goes on the seat of the chair. Your back goes on the back of the chair. Your legs go by the legs of the chair. The parts of the chair are named so that a complete nincompoop could understand how to use it. Do you have any questions?" And they sat. Or else. Alla: > That is probably the main reason I think Snape shouldn't be allowed > nowhere around students. Even though he does it to one student,where > is the guarantee that if someone else will not insult him during his > long life as WW, he won't do the same thing to said person's child? Ginger: This is where I get confused: Do you mean that he "shouldn't be allowed" in the sense that (1)a RL teacher like him shouldn't be allowed? Or (2)that you, as a reader, would love to see DD step in and tell him to be nice or he (Snape) will be fired (or in some other way change him, ie personal epiphany)? Or (3) in the sense that JKR shouldn't write him like that? (Which doesn't sound like what you've been saying before.) I can see (1) the RL comparison if one holds those views about teachers. I can see (2) the "dream" train of thought I spoke of earlier. But usually when I see "he shouldn't be allowed" or something of that nature, it strikes me (3) as if the person saying such a thing is saying that it shouldn't be in the story. Or is asserting themselves (as opposed to wishing) to dictate the future of the story. I guess my question to those who say "something shouldn't be like this" is: How do you mean that? Is it one of the 3 mentioned above or something different? Personally, I wouldn't like to see Snape change. He gets all the good lines. I've said it before: I love Snape because he gets to say things I can't because I'm too polite. It's kind of a vicarious way of letting my inner nastiness have its day without hurting a real person. I did a lot of snipping so this wouldn't get long, and failed miserably. Ginger, celebrating her last night of work at her part-time job tonight, and her entry into "semi-retirement" aka, a 40 hour/week job with actual days off! Bliss! From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Sun May 1 14:43:59 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 10:43:59 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore an Animagus? References: <426F0349.3000705@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <4274EB2F.000006.02312@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 128367 Amiable Dorsai wrote: > There's also the possibility that he became an animagus before > registration was necessary. Animagi who developed the talent > before then may have been "grandfathered" out of the need to > register. Jazymn wrote: Or people might be missing the whole point that you do NOT have to be an animagus to change to animal form. An Animagus is when the person can change to a specific form AT WILL, without using a potion or a wand.. Meaning they must be registered because taking their wand away doesn't stop them from changing, unless you actually think that Sirius had a wand in Azkaban?? Meaning that if they commit a crime, they would need a special cell or magic(s) to keep them from escaping. Animagi only need to be registered BECAUSE they don't need a wand or potion to change like everyone else does. Dumbledore doesn't even need to be one and I see no evidence that he is or isn't. He also knows magic that Harry would not even know about, has many magical devices in his office for which Harry hasn't a clue what they do and certainly has means of knowing what's going on without resorting to turning into an animal I would more believe him to have seer powers than think he can turn into a gerbil or a wombat at will.... No, I don't think he is one or has any reason to be one. He has plenty of tricks up his sleeve that we have not witnessed yet without being another unregistered/registered' Animagi.... Donna wrote: My thinking on the subject is that DD can change shape but probably doesn't need to because of advanced magic and skills. He strikes me as the type that may have developed the skill as a youth just to know how just in case, pretty much like James, Sirius, and Petticrew did. My feeling is DD was a "rebel" of sorts as a young man. We really don't know much, if anything, of his youth. I would not be surprised to learn he has more than one animal persona. I'm kinda amazed that Fred and George haven't investigated the skill - or have they? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 1 18:25:45 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 18:25:45 -0000 Subject: Can(n)ons and Teachers: McGonagall (was Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128368 > Shaun: > *Within that context*, there is considered to be no need for a > teacher to be nice, kind, or stable. These things were not considered important in the type of schools that Hogwarts is based on. > > SSSusan: > I fully agree with you that a teacher doesn't need to be nice or > buddy-buddy with students. OTOH, there is a big difference between > being nice or kind and being cruel and humiliating with students. > McGonagall is not particularly *nice,* but she is also not cruel. > Snape is. And I would argue that cruelty and humiliation can > *interfere* with students' ability to learn in a way which firmness, strictness even coldness, do not. Potioncat: I'd like to issue a challenge. Can(n)ons at 10 paces. We need something to keep us busy for another month or so. Shaun is discussing the literary tradition of teaching, but SSSusan (I think) is discussing the reality of teaching. Shaun also talked about gifted students. But there was a time that everyone was expected to learn. I don't think gifted students were identified as such. But slower students and troublemakers were made to suffer. That does describe Hogwarts to a point. It's also been said, upthread, that we're not given very many actual class time scenes. Classroom moments usually have some other purpose to the plot than teachers' styles...but do give a good sense of Magical School life. I think JKR has decided to let kids see the same sort of problems and issues at Hogwarts that they are likely to see in their own schools.I'm sure every child/adult who reads HP, can identify to a certain extent with these situations. Also upthread someone asked if Snape had ever in any way encouraged Hermione. (Frankly I can only think of one time he encouraged anyone.) But do we see McGonagall or anyone else encouraging Hermione to go farther and do more? Here's my challenge: Choose a teacher and provde canon that shows his or her teaching either in the classroom or at some other moment. Compare, contrast, comment, leave it open, express it however you choose. Are there any takers? I'll start with a McGonagall moment. She's considered by many, one of the best teachers at Hogwarts, although,IIRC, even JKR said she is too strict. GOF chapter 15, the castle is preparing for the arrival of the other schools: >Other members of the staff seemed oddly tense too. "Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" Professor McGonagall barked at the end of one particularly difficult lesson, during which Nevile had accidentally transplanted his own ears onto a cactus.< Interesting. It sounds like something Snape would say, doesn't it? It isn't the first time her harsh words have been used on Neville, either. The lesson was difficult for everyone and Neville had an especially hard time. Although suddenly I wonder why she's so particular that he shouldn't reveal his inability to Durmstang? She doesn't want to be embarrassed in front of them for some reason? Potioncat who hopes this will generate something. Please remember to put the teacher's name in the subject line. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 1 18:36:34 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 18:36:34 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - a maverick view.... In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a05050105153800745e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: Debbie: > This interpretation conflicts with the one I just posted last night, > suggesting that Harry had escaped Voldemort but did not show himself > to be LV's equal in doing so (ergo, he was not vanquished). But, as > the matter is far from resolved, in my view, I'm just as happy to > argue from the perspective that Harry *is* the One. > > I even cited the same definition (or one very similar). It just goes > to show what troublesome things words are. ;-) > > I do tend to think that the common usage of the word vanquish refers > to a final defeat, though, rather than an interim defeat in a much > longer battle, so that when the prophecy speaks of vanquishing, it > means that only the One can eliminate Voldemort as a threat. > (Otherwise, Dumbledore could be considered to have vanquished > Voldemort at the DoM.) Geoff: Yes, but consider the case of Middle-Earth in "The Silmarillion" and "The Lord of the Rings" as an example. Sauron was caught in the downfall of Numenor when the island was swallowed up in the sea and lost his physical form becoming a spirit of evil which returned to Middle-Earth. He resumed a form which was no longer fair and set out to destroy Elendil and those who had escaped the wreck of Numenor and set up the twin kingdoms of Gondor and Arnor. At the battle of Dagorlad at the end of the Second Age, the forces of Gil-Galad and Elendil overcame those of Sauron; Sauron had the Ring cut form his hand and became a bodiless spirit. This, I believe, would qualify as being vanquished. However, after many centuries, he returned to Mordor and began to rebuild his power being in spirit form. When the Ring was destroyed in the Sammath Naur at the end of "Lord of the Rings", Sauron became a powerless spirit of malice and had fallen further than at the end of the Second Age; this was a second vanquishing. We are not to know that he might climb again - as Voldemort did after Godric's Hollow - a long, slow and painful path to try to regain power again. Debbie: > Finally, why do you call this a maverick view? Misinterpretation is > the engine of many a classic tale, as you point out yourself. Indeed, > the main point of my earlier post was really that we can't take > Dumbledore's interpretation at face value. Geoff: I used that title because a huge amount of time and energy has been expended on the analysis of "one", "him", "either", "neither" etc. I have not involved myself in that line of discussion but I struck out on a tangent suggesting that looking at the way in which prophecy was open to misinterpretation - citing Shakespeare, Delphi and Nostrodamus - the possibilities that "live" and "vanquish" might be worthy of further study. My dictionary defines "maverick" as an unorthodox or independent- minded person. I think that post tended to place me in this category. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 1 18:46:23 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 18:46:23 -0000 Subject: Oh, The Possibilities! (Re: The prophecy - a maverick view....) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: Finwitch: > Indeed it could be. As the prophecy does not use NAMES at all, it > could very well refer to anyone. Even the 'Born as the 7th month > dies' is not clear. It could mean late July (Harry/Neville), it could > mean late September (the name in Latin means seventh) or the end of > the 'seventh month counting from the moment the prophecy was given'. > It doesn't mention any year... > > And... well, Harry vanquished Voldemort as Voldemort 'marked him' - > thus that happened. As for the 'either must die at the hand of the > other for neither can live while the other survives' - could easily > have referred to Harry/Quirrelmort at the end of PS. Geoff: I agree that, at one time, the year began in March, hence the then seventh to tenth months used the Latin numbers for seven to ten - "Septem, Octo, Novem, Decem" - as part of their names. However, when this idea was floated in the past, contributors to the group have commented that it is a long time since the year was adjusted to start with January and, although the Wizarding World may be a trifle old-fashioned, I think that they are in line with our calendar in that respect. And why would anyone hearing the prophecy even think of considering it as being the seventh month counting from when the prophecy was given? From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun May 1 18:46:55 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 18:46:55 -0000 Subject: Seventh Month Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128371 BG writes: This month fell between January and March making June the 7th month. > > Intercalaris -- inter-calendar month > Latin Intercalaris "inter-calendar" > Latin Mercedonius (popular name) "?" > Intercalaris had 27 days until the month was abolished by Julius. > > In 46 BC, Julius Caesar reformed the Roman calendar (hence the > Julian calendar) changing the number of days in many months and > removing Intercalaris. > > Ollivander has been selling wands since 382 BC. That sign may be a > reference for us to know that the WW has been organized and "doing > business" since ancient times. > > Both prophecies uttered by Trelawney have been with her in a trance > and not in her voice. If an ancient one is speaking through her > possibly the 7th month is indeed June not July. The only character > we know who was born in June of 1980 is Dudley and I'm as sure as > can be it is not him. So, maybe it is a character either we know > not his birthdate or a character yet to be introduced - The HBP > maybe? I don't think LV has marked anyone yet as his equal. Harry > was marked by a curse. I find it hard to believe that LV would mark > one as an equal with such a visible sign. He marks his DE visibly > to control them and would be more careful marking his equal. > > Just pondering while waiting for Book 6. From sophierom at yahoo.com Sun May 1 20:27:01 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 20:27:01 -0000 Subject: Trelawney (was Can(n)ons and Teachers: McGonagall (was Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128372 > Potioncat: > I'd like to issue a challenge. Can(n)ons at 10 paces. We need > something to keep us busy for another month or so. > Here's my challenge: Choose a teacher and provde canon that shows his > or her teaching either in the classroom or at some other moment. > Compare, contrast, comment, leave it open, express it however you > choose. > > Are there any takers? Sophierom: I'll bite! ;-D Rowling does a fabulous job of letting us know, from the very first, that Trelawney is more of an actor than a teacher. Before we see Trelawney, we see her classroom, her set, as it were. As Harry observes, "it didn't look like a classroom at all, more like a cross between someone's attic and an old-fashioned tea shop" (PoA, Am. ed., 101-102). Trelawney then makes a dramatic entrance, using her "soft, misty sort of voice" to announce her presence (102). Her costume is magnificent and comedic at the same time: "large glasses," "a gauzy spangled shawl," "innumerable chains and beads," "bangles and rings" all suggest that this woman is dressed, if not to impress, then at least to make an impression (102). Trelawney's opening speech is "extraordinary" in the most basic sense of that word, and she uses dramatic language and eye contact to reach her audience (103). Then, the show really begins, as begins to make predictions. Apparently, she's prepared well for her performance: she knows that Neville has a grandmother, that he's likely to be impressed by her showmanship, and that he's nervous enough to break his tea cup. She also knows when to end her performance: after she's "predicted" Harry's death, Hermione confronts her, threatening her authority, and Trelawney quickly brings an end to the class (103-108). Interestingly enough, as soon as the kids leave Trelawney's classroom, they head to Transfiguration class. McGonagall, too, tries to put on a "show," morphing from her cat form to her human shape. Unlike Trelawney, however, the "failure" of her performance doesn't bother her. "Not that it matters," McGonagall tells the class, "but that's the first time my transformation's not gotten applause from a class" (109). It comes out that Trelawney has "predicted" Harry's death, and McGonagall quickly dismisses the notion and goes on with her class. Harry not only finds McGonagall's words soothing, but he also feels much calmer now that he's no longer being influenced by Trelawney's "set" or "stage": "It was harder to feel scared of a lump of tea leaves away from the dim red light and befuddling perfume of Professor Trelawney's classroom" (109-110). It seems, then, that Trelawney's authority is directly tied to the setting she's created for herself. What I find so interesting about Trelawney, McGonagall, and the issue of performance is that in both instances, the teachers turn to acting or performance as a way to begin the class. (There are other examples of this, too; Snape, in particular, comes to mind.) There's a tacit recognition, then, on Rowling's part that performance is part of teaching. However, Trelawney relies solely on acting and performing, and the minute her performance is threatened (Hermione's questioning), the class falls apart. For McGonagall, however, the performance is only the hook to teach something more substantive. The lessons that McGonagall will teach can continue to be useful outside of her "stage" or classroom. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun May 1 20:30:39 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 20:30:39 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: <20050501121336.99918.qmail@web53503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > As far as Ostara - since when do we celebrate the torture and murder of a man with chicks and bunnies? Chicks, bunnies, eggs, pastel colors, etc. Tonks replies: Actually we are not celebrated His torture and murder; we are celebrating his resurrection from the dead. Eggs are a symbol of new life, our new life in Christ. Any yes, Christianity has taken many things from pagan religions and used them in the *new religion*. It was a way to convert pagans to the new religion and help them feel at home in it. Just good marketing strategy. >KG said: (Snip) People, you do not have to justify or infuse christianity into Harry Potter in order to not feel guilty about enjoying a work of fiction that has a Pagan (though purely fantasy) theme to it. Just enjoy!! We are all different - enjoy the differences!! Tonks replies: I have no problem reading any book, fantasy or otherwise. that is pagan. I have several books on the occult, as well as on Shamanism, etc. (I have gone on Shamanistic Journeys, etc. and done so as a Christian.) I have even read such *forbidden and dangerous* works as the Keys of Solomon, books which give detailed rituals and spells for the practice of Necromancy. (As a Christian I would never use these, of course, but I have read them.) I read everything and don't need an excuse to do so. The HP books are so obviously books written with a Christian theme that anyone who is versed in the theology of Christianity would have to be blind not to see it. I understand that it is not so obvious to non-Christians, but it is obvious to those of us who are. Now I do think that JKR in her attempt to smuggle the Gospel has deliberately cloaked it in a metaphor that can be used and understood by anyone of any faith. I think that she has stirred the cauldron so to speak and included ingredients of many faiths so that the truth that she speaks can be understand and hopeful practiced by all. It is not necessary to understand the Christian symbols to get the message and teaching that IMO the books have been written to provide. That is the genius of JKR. One could say that the gospel is being preached to all the world through these books. Some would disagree with me on that, but that is indeed what I think is being done. Tonks_op From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun May 1 22:19:53 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:19:53 -0000 Subject: Can(n)ons and Teachers: McGonagall (was Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128374 Shaun: >>>*Within that context*, there is considered to be no need for a teacher to be nice, kind, or stable. These things were not considered important in the type of schools that Hogwarts is based on.<<< SSSusan: >> I fully agree with you that a teacher doesn't need to be nice or buddy-buddy with students. OTOH, there is a big difference between being nice or kind and being cruel and humiliating with students. McGonagall is not particularly *nice,* but she is also not cruel. Snape is. And I would argue that cruelty and humiliation can *interfere* with students' ability to learn in a way which firmness, strictness even coldness, do not.<< Potioncat: > Shaun is discussing the literary tradition of teaching, but > SSSusan (I think) is discussing the reality of teaching. Shaun > also talked about gifted students. > > Also upthread someone asked if Snape had ever in any way > encouraged Hermione. (Frankly I can only think of one time he > encouraged anyone.) But do we see McGonagall or anyone else > encouraging Hermione to go farther and do more? SSSusan: Heh heh. Shaun may be arguing the literary tradition of teaching, but he uses RL to support his argument at least as much as I do, I think. :-) After all, I made my comparison within the story, between Snape and McGonnagal, whereas I know Shaun often discusses his own experience with various teachers while a student. Actually, I think both Shaun & I do some crossover between looking at this as British boarding school literature and looking at it from our experiences in the RW. I actually agree that we are meant to look at this in the British boarding school tradition, but I *still* don't think we're meant to think Snape is a *good* teacher; only that he's a somewhat typical teacher type and that we're not supposed to take it as seriously as we would if we encountered a Snape in RL. (And I don't.) As for McGonagall encouraging Hermione, well, she *did* give her the Time-Turner. She had confidence that Hermione could handle more than your average student, and she went to some trouble to work things out so that Hermione could have the TT. I see that as encouraging her, yes. (Whether she should have done is another matter, but I believe she was encouraging her.) Potioncat: > I'll start with a McGonagall moment. > Other members of the staff seemed oddly tense too. > "Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a > simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" > Professor McGonagall barked at the end of one particularly > difficult lesson, during which Nevile had accidentally > transplanted his own ears onto a cactus. > > Interesting. It sounds like something Snape would say, doesn't it? SSSusan: Ugh. I think you chose what may well be McGonagall's *worst* moment in the series! :-) In this scene, McGonagall strikes me as all wound up about the arrival of the Durmstrang & Beauxbatons students, and she is rather frantically trying to make sure everyone is ready to put his/her best foot forward. (Doesn't she also tell Lavender to "take that ridiculous thing [bow] out of your hair!"?] Potioncat: > It isn't the first time her harsh words have been used on Neville, > either. SSSusan: I can think of one other time she was quite harsh with Neville -- when he had left the list of passwords out. But that wasn't a classroom situation. Can you think of another classroom situation? Also, in spite of this, do we have any evidence that Neville is frightened of McGonagall in the way he is frightened of Snape? Potioncat: > Here's my challenge: Choose a teacher and provde canon that shows > his or her teaching either in the classroom or at some other > moment. Compare, contrast, comment, leave it open, express it > however you choose. SSSusan: Hmmmm. Must think about this. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sun May 1 22:57:46 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:57:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius & the 2 Book Rule (was: Funerals are for the living) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128375 > Kemper: > But Harry needs a good cry in a safe situation where others may be > feeling similarly about needless loss. > > stickbook: > The phrase "needless loss" struck me oddly. Was Sirius's tumble > through the Veil needless? ... > I would much rather see it pan out that Sirius's > death significantly enables something that helps Harry defeat > Voldemort (as opposed to coming back as a ghost or whatever), so that > his loss is not needless in the slightest. Kemper now: I didn't mean Sirius death being needless in the storyline. I meant it needless in the moment for Harry. Needless because Harry didn't want to practice Occulemency and perhaps blames himself... or shifts the blame to Snape who is such a bad teacher for Harry. Regardless if Snape or Harry or even Dumbledore or Doby or Dudders or Draco or Diggle or Dolohov is to blame, the death was preventable and needless (except, I'm sure, for the story). Kemper Waiting to the read the chapter Waking and Bequeathing From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun May 1 23:32:50 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 23:32:50 -0000 Subject: Can(n)ons and Teachers: McGonagall (was Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128376 > Potioncat: > > Also upthread someone asked if Snape had ever in any way > > encouraged Hermione. (Frankly I can only think of one time he > > encouraged anyone.) But do we see McGonagall or anyone else > > encouraging Hermione to go farther and do more? > > > SSSusan: > As for McGonagall encouraging Hermione, well, she *did* give her the > Time-Turner. She had confidence that Hermione could handle more > than your average student, and she went to some trouble to work > things out so that Hermione could have the TT. I see that as > encouraging her, yes. (Whether she should have done is another > matter, but I believe she was encouraging her.) > > > Potioncat: > > I'll start with a McGonagall moment. > > Other members of the staff seemed oddly tense too. > > "Longbottom, kindly do not reveal that you can't even perform a > > simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" > > Professor McGonagall barked at the end of one particularly > > difficult lesson, during which Nevile had accidentally > > transplanted his own ears onto a cactus. > > > > Interesting. It sounds like something Snape would say, doesn't it? > > > SSSusan: > Ugh. I think you chose what may well be McGonagall's *worst* moment > in the series! :-) Neri: McGonagall is the very image of the strict-but-fair teacher. She gives praise very rarely, but although Transfiguration lessons aren't covered in the series nearly as much as Potions, there are certainly several cases in canon when she encourages Hermione and even Neville. Examples: SS/PS Ch. 8: After making a lot of complicated notes, they were each given a match and started trying to turn it into a needle. By the end of the lesson, only Hermione Granger had made any difference to her match; Professor McGonagall showed the class how it had gone all silver and pointy and gave Hermione a rare smile. SS/PS Ch. 9: Hermione wasn't going to give up that easily. She followed Ron through the portrait hole, hissing at them like an angry goose. "Don't you care about Gryffindor, do you only care about yourselves, I don't want Slytherin to win the House Cup and you'll lose all the points I got from Professor McGonagall for knowing about Switching Spells." GoF, Ch. 15: "We don't take O.W.L.s till fifth year!" said Dean Thomas indignantly. "Maybe not, Thomas, but believe me, you need all the preparation you can get! Miss Granger remains the only person in this class who has managed to turn a hedgehog into a satisfactory pincushion. I might remind you that your pincushion, Thomas, still curls up in fright if anyone approaches it with a pin!" Hermione, who had turned rather pink again, seemed to be trying not to look too pleased with herself. OotP, Ch. 13: "You cannot pass an OWL," said Professor McGonagall grimly, "without serious application, practice and study. I see no reason why everybody in this class should not achieve an OWL in Transfiguration as long as they put in the work." Neville made a sad little disbelieving noise. "Yes, you too, Longbottom," said Professor McGonagall. "There's nothing wrong with your work except lack of confidence". Neri From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun May 1 23:55:52 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 23:55:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128377 >>SSSusan: >At what point do we draw the line and say, "This teacher reaches *enough* students that we can consider him a GOOD teacher"?< Betsy: But isn't a statement like this once again ignoring Snape's high pass rate? After all, if a larger than average number of students pass the Potions' OWL, and if the entire class is being taught a higher level of Potions than required, how can you reconcile that with the suggestion that Snape's teaching style reaches only a few select students? I will agree that Snape is probably only *liked* by his Slytherins (though have there been any comments made on Snape from the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws we've met?) but that doesn't translate to his ability to teach. >>SSSusan: >I think there is plenty of evidence that Snape's style is not effective with Harry & Neville, and I believe that Hermione learns in spite of him.< Betsy: So this is three students, out of the entire Hogwarts student body, and frankly, I'd argue them. Both Neville and Harry gave the appearance of doing better then they expected on their OWLs (I'm pretty sure Harry did well enough to get himself into the NEWTs level class) and if they did that is because Snape taught them what they needed to know. Which would mean that his style with them - though not perfect - is effective. As to Hermione, Pippin did a great job pointing out all the extra tidbits Snape dangled in front Hermione, encouraging her towards further exploration. >>Pippin (message # 128311) >Certainly she wishes Snape would be a bit nicer. But bearing in mind that this is the girl who would rather undergo an illegal curse than miss an important lesson, I think Hermione must think she's getting something special out of Snape's lessons. What is she learning? >I think it's the little asides that she finds valuable, the things Harry and Ron pay no attention to, either because they're not part of the regular course work and won't be on the exam, or because they think it's just Snape being horrible. Like, where to find the recipe for polyjuice potion. Or the fact that the ingredients for Shrinking Solution can be used to make a poison. Or that the Draught of Peace, with certain alterations, will put the drinker into an irreversible trance. The kind of thing, in other words, that might be useful to know if you were planning to fight Voldemort, but wouldn't need to know to pass your OWLs or NEWTs.< Betsy: And don't forget that Hermione, per canon, is quite picky about her teachers. When Trelawny failed to meet expectations, Hermione decided she didn't need Divinations anyway and left the class. When Hagrid failed to meet expectations, Hermione helped him with his lesson plans. And when Umbridge failed to meet expectations, Hermione formed a study group to cover what Umbridge was failing to teach. Not once has Hermione suggested that Snape was failing to meet her expectations. Instead she constantly encourages Ron and Harry to do their potion assignment. The only time Hermione has held back her true feelings about a teacher is with Hagrid, and that's only because of her loyalty and compassion for both Hagrid and Harry. Even then, we the reader know that she's fully aware of Hagrid's teaching faults. Is there anytime in canon when Hermione question's Snape's teaching abilities? >>SSSusan: >It may be that Snape's methods work well with some of the members of his class. The students are passing and getting decent marks on their exams, indeed. But what I always come back to is, "Could the students be doing BETTER with someone else?"< Betsy: Oh, there's definitely room for improvement. Probably the best teacher at Hogwarts, IMO, has been Lupin. He not only taught his students, but he got them enthusiastic about his subject and excited to learn. And yes, Snape has a long way to go to achieve that level of teaching, but I haven't seen any hard evidence put forward that points to him being a sub-par teacher. And seeing how hard its been for Dumbledore to get a decent DADA professor, I imagine a competent Potions professor would be just as hard to find. Betsy, who's also looking forward to a NEWTs level Potions class. From elfundeb at gmail.com Mon May 2 01:03:49 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:03:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prophecy wording - why not Neville? In-Reply-To: References: <80f25c3a05043015266baa6ebc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <80f25c3a0505011803737099eb@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128378 Just a couple of points, since I think that GEO and I are simply going to have to agree to disagree. I agree that the weight of the evidence favors Harry as the One, so the issue is whether Neville has been ruled out. And that turns on our willingness to accept Dumbledore's statements without further proof. > GEO: I'm not just talking about a physical mark, but also > similarities and equalities in power and background. It was > Voldemort's attack on Harry that left the boy with the mark and some > of Voldemort's own powers including parseltongue, but it also left > Harry's life very similar to that of the young Tom Riddle Jr: > orphaned, being raised by muggles who they obviously were not > particularly fond of, being "saved" through the Hogwarts letters, > having their shared wand cores and getting the opportunity to be > sorted into slytherin house, which Harry thankfully avoided. Neville > shares none of these similarities with Voldemort aside from the lack > of a mark. But the prophecy doesn't mention any similarities. It merely states that the One will be marked "as his equal." Dumbledore seems to believe that Harry is emerging as Voldemort's equal. But that is not an objective fact; it's Dumbledore's assessment of the situation. > GEO: But within the realm of our knowledge, Harry is the only one > that has been as somewhat of an equal to the Dark Lord though > certainly not in magical power and knowledge, but certainly in > background and we have seen that in two contests of will power, > Harry has proven to be stronger than Voldemort or at least strong > enough to exorcise the latter from his mind and force his wand to > regurgitate spells in what appeared to be a duel of wills. It's the power that Voldemort has not that allows Harry to win at priori incantantem. But many people possess that power. It is not unique to Harry. > GEO: Considering that Dumbledore was even able to divine the reasons > for why Voldemort picked Harry instead of Neville, I think the man's > knowledge of Voldemort's actions and intentions shouldn't be > questioned, it is just part of his character. This is our fundamental disagreement. There's no evidence that Dumbledore can divine anything; he is quite skeptical of Divination (though that's probably not the context you meant in using that word). If his explanation is correct (and it seems astounding to me that Voldemort would not go after *both* boys, just to cover his bases), then I think Dumbledore would have had to have learned it somewhere. But where? If someone else told him, then it's hearsay. I wrote: > > And, in my mind, the big tip-off that Dumbledore has not correctly > > analysed it comes when he tells Harry that the phrase "neither can > > live while the other survives" means that Harry will have to kill > > Voldemort or be killed. > > GEO: Actually that was Harry's intepretation. Dumbledore just > confirmed his interpretation and there were other bits of the > prophecy to take into account like the "and either must die at the > hand of the other" statement. Geoff and I have addressed the possible meanings of "die" on another thread. As to the other point, Dumbledore's confirmation tells us that he independently reached the same conclusion. > GEO: The issue was discuessed in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128287 Actually, that wasn't the quote I meant. I was referring to JKR's statement that she uses Hermione or Dumbledore when she needs to convey a fact to the reader. The problem here is that the purpose of Dumbledore's analysis is to make Harry believe that *he* must bear the burden of killing Voldemort, or evil will prevail. It's not a fact that we as readers must know, so I'm not sure that statement that I can't find applies. In the quote referred to in #128287, JKR does tell us that Dumbledore "explains" why Voldemort picked Harry. But my skeptical mind wants to know how Dumbledore knows this before I can treat it as fact. And a good writer should convey this information in the books themselves. It's not enough that she tells us elsewhere to believe him. As it stands, I think the Book Day statement could be misdirection; she answered by telling us what a character said in the book. > GEO: Actually in the words of the writer he is the most omniscient > character in the book though I for one would argue that there is a > difference in mistakes made by him because of errors in judgement > and errors in fact and knowledge. Again, can you provide a cite for this? I don't recall her ever saying anything about Dumbledore being omniscient. Debbie who finds the prophecy fascinating, but hated the chapter in which its contents were revealed From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 01:15:56 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 01:15:56 -0000 Subject: Whose Pensieve on HBP Cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128379 Carol earlier: > > > I've said this before, so forgive me for repeating, but thoughts are not stored in a Pensieve. They are placed there by a person capable of removing them from his own head--an Occlumens. We have so far seen only two people capable of performing this intricate bit of magic, Dumbledore and Snape. > > > Angie responded: > > Should we assume that you must be an Occlumens to use a Pensieve? Just because we've only seen Snape and DD do it doesn't mean they are the only ones who can, does it? I don't understand why you would have to be able to discern whether someone else is telling the truth in order to remove your own thoughts. Am I missing something? Carol again: You seem to be confusing Legilimens (someone who can see other people's thoughts and memories) with an Occlumens, who can *block* another person's Legilimency to prevent his own thoughts from being read. Voldemort is a Legilimens; Snape is an Occlumens. Dumbledore seems to be both. I don't mean that you need to be an Occlumens to use the Pensieve once the thoughts are in it. But actually *removing* thoughts from your own head seems like a tricky business, probably one of the more advanced skills that an Occlumens learns, not one that Harry could master in a hurry. We know of only two wizards who can do it, the same two who were qualified to teach Harry Occlumency. And we don't know of *anyone*, even a Legilimens like Voldemort, who can remove a thought from someone else's head and put it in a Pensieve. I'm not saying that it can't be done, only that--so far--we have no evidence for it. Carol, who is sure that the cracked Pensieve atop a Corinthian column is not Dumbledore's but isn't sure of anything else Carol From juli17 at aol.com Mon May 2 01:19:18 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:19:18 EDT Subject: Christmas in the WW (was Re: Christianity in HP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128380 Geoff wrote: > > Re the Wizarding World marking Christmas etc., it indicates to me that > the festivals have some meaning for them. Otherwise they would use a > different name... Here in the UK, we are now getting one or two local > authorities who refuse to mark Christmas on PC grounds and celebrate > the "Winter Festival" or something equally vague. > > Julie says: In the US and Britain (and probably much of Europe, Australia, etc), marking Christmas and celebrating it as a holiday does not mean one holds Christian beliefs. That holiday has become a secular holiday to many who mark it as a time to gather with loved ones and exchange gifts. Some may have been raised Christian and may still consider themselves nominally Christian though they no longer worship in church, some were never raised in the church at all, and some have lapsed from the faith. I am one of the latter. Though there are many tenets of Christianity I do not believe, I do value the Christmas season for its message as a time to put aside differences and to seek peace, and a time express the best in yourself, and to love your fellow man. Like the pagan ritual and symbols that were incorporated into Christmas, Christmas has morphed in modern times into something more than a Christian religious holiday. It offers hope not only to those devoted to the Christian faith, but to many who no longer practice the faith, but who derive comfort from the idea that a season devoted to peace and good will could one day expand into an everyday way of life. >From the lack of specific Christian symbols invoked during the Christmas holiday at Hogwarts, this more nonspecific version of the holiday seems to be in effect within the WW as it is in the muggle society surrounding the WW. Some wizards, just like some muggles, may well derive a specifically Christian meaning from Christmas, but others do not. At least this is the way JKR is presenting it in the HP books, and I think that is intentional. In this instance WW society is very reflective of muggle society. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon May 2 01:58:41 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 01:58:41 -0000 Subject: The Nature of a Dementor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128381 The Nature of a Dementor A Dementor is a Demon Tormentor (in Christian terms, a fallen Angel) A Dementor is a spiritual being that use to live in the presence of the Light, the Source of all Goodness (the Source of the Ancient Magic). The Dementor fell into the world of matter and lost the connection to the Light. It misses the Light and continues to seek it. The only place that a Dementor can find any trace of the Light is in the goodness of the world. It is especially tuned into Human Beings because each Human Being has a part of the eternal Light within them. Dementors seek Harry most because He has the most Light. They seek Harry because Harry is from the Light. (Either He is Christ or Christ is within him.) A Dementor will suck the Light from anyone that it can, leaving that person with only darkness. But the Light that is sucks from humankind is not the Source, it is only the reflection and so it can only satisfy for a short time. Before the Dementor fell it was bathed in the Light continually for all eternity. If it can suck the soul from the person, so much the better because the soul is united to the Light. In this way the Dementor can get the greatest charge of Light. RE: Dementors and Ghost A Dementor is a purely spiritual being that fell into the material world. It is the opposite of a Ghost. A Ghost is a Human Being, one born of the material world but with a spiritual nature. The Ghost is trapped on his journey from matter to spiritual. Hence he is somewhat smoky white in color. A Dementor having been in the spiritual world and fallen into matter is black, the absence of light. Both the Ghost and the Dementor are trapped in a place that is neither one world nor the other. Since Wizards and Witches are more in touch with the spiritual world they can see the Dementors and Ghost whereas a Muggle cannot. If the books go according to what I think is the plan, Harry will free the Ghost and the Dementors from their prison. Both Ghost and Dementors have free will and they will have a choice when the time comes to go on to/back to the Light or stay in the Darkness. Tonks_op From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 2 02:15:16 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 02:15:16 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128382 SSSusan earlier: > > At what point do we draw the line and say, "This teacher reaches > > *enough* students that we can consider him a GOOD teacher"? Betsy: > But isn't a statement like this once again ignoring Snape's high > pass rate? SSSusan: Possibly. Yet you snipped out the part where I asked whether they might learn BETTER with someone else. It's never been my claim that no one learns from him. It would help all of us in hashing this out if we had the actual stats to look at. SSSusan earlier: > > I think there is plenty of evidence that Snape's style is not > > effective with Harry & Neville, and I believe that Hermione > > learns in spite of him. Betsy: > So this is three students, out of the entire Hogwarts student > body, and frankly, I'd argue them. SSSusan: Well, you're free to argue them, but, NO, I wasn't saying ONLY these three. I provided three examples; I didn't say this was the only 3 of the entire Hogwarts student body. We are *limited* in PoV, as we all know. Yet from this limited PoV, we can already see two or three who are not being reached well by this teacher... and three for sure who've been humiliated by him. Betsy: > Both Neville and Harry gave the appearance of doing better then > they expected on their OWLs (I'm pretty sure Harry did well enough > to get himself into the NEWTs level class) and if they did that is > because Snape taught them what they needed to know. Which would > mean that his style with them - though not perfect - is effective. SSSusan: Still doesn't counter my point, imo, which isn't that they're not learning at all; it's that they're not learning to their potential. It's my contention that what they're learning is learned in large part in spite of Snape's methods & treatment of them. Again, you have to keep in mind that when I talk about a "good" teacher, I'm talking about not just one who succeeds in disseminating information but one who brings out the MOST in his/her students. There is nothing I've seen in canon which would demonstrate Snape has done *anything* to actually try to draw out the best from (at least) these three. Now, as Shaun might point out, there may be kids who would happen to thrive on what this nasty, insulting, sadistic (JKR's word) teacher does, but in my mind at least two of these three aren't in that camp. There are others who may do well by virtue of: 1) being lucky enough to be ignored by Snape; and 2) being frightened enough of his wrath-aimed-at-the-Gryffs that they work their asses off to avoid something similar. But for those Gryffs themselves, I don't think it has the effect of drawing out their best performances. I suspect you & I simply will never see things in quite the same light, and we're likely evaluating what makes a "good" teacher quite differently. Betsy: > And don't forget that Hermione, per canon, is quite picky about > her teachers. When Trelawny failed to meet expectations, Hermione > decided she didn't need Divinations anyway and left the class. > When Hagrid failed to meet expectations, Hermione helped him with > his lesson plans. And when Umbridge failed to meet expectations, > Hermione formed a study group to cover what Umbridge was failing > to teach. Not once has Hermione suggested that Snape was failing > to meet her expectations. Instead she constantly encourages Ron > and Harry to do their potion assignment. SSSusan: I suspect Hermione sees the value in potions over divination, period, regardless of who's teaching. Snape, of course, would never *accept* help from Hermione. And with Umbridge, well, it's easier to develop a DADA club than a Potions club -- thinking only of necessary materials, for one thing. However, you're right about her never expressing that Snape has failed to meet her expectations. That begs the question: HAS he met her expectations, or has she simply selected a strategy for surviving his class (i.e., get all your work done & try your hardest)? I'll grant you that if it's the latter, and *IF* Harry & Neville had managed to do the same thing, it might've worked out better for them. But how many kids, confronted with the treatment Snape's dished out, could adopt that strategy? Betsy: > Oh, there's definitely room for improvement. Probably the best > teacher at Hogwarts, IMO, has been Lupin. He not only taught his > students, but he got them enthusiastic about his subject and > excited to learn. And yes, Snape has a long way to go to achieve > that level of teaching, but I haven't seen any hard evidence put > forward that points to him being a sub-par teacher. SSSusan: Aha! We actually do have a bit of common ground here. I think Lupin is an excellent counter-example to Snape, as is McGonagall. What we're left with is your acknowledging Snape has room for improvement but that he's still not sub-par. I'm left with acknowledging that Snape has room for improvement, and that in *some* ways (e.g., knowledge) he's not sub-par, but that he's still not a "good" teacher in my book. > Betsy, who's also looking forward to a NEWTs level Potions class. SSSusan, who wholeheartedly agrees with this last statement. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon May 2 02:17:14 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 02:17:14 -0000 Subject: Prophecy wording - why not Neville? In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0505011803737099eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: > But the prophecy doesn't mention any similarities. It merely states > that the One will be marked "as his equal." GEO: And the similarities in background created by the incident, I would argue are just one more sign of the equality between Tom and Harry that even the shadow within his diary who didn't know of the prophecy picked up and noticed. > It's the power that Voldemort has not that allows Harry to win at > priori incantantem. But many people possess that power. GEO: Actually I do believe it was will power that allowed Harry to force the bead back into Voldemort's wand and create the regurgitation effect, but then the power that Voldemort knows not may also be that and much more > Again, can you provide a cite for this? I don't recall her ever > saying anything about Dumbledore being omniscient. www.quick-quote-quill.org/ articles/2001/1101-bbcibristoltransc.html From ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com Mon May 2 02:23:22 2005 From: ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com (ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 22:23:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christianity in HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128384 In a message dated 5/1/2005 2:55:04 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: Geoff: Excuse me but Christmas and Easter are NOT pagan holidays. By definition, they are Christian festivals. What you are doing is to confuse the fact that when they came into being, they coincided with pagan festivals for the simlple reason that, especially in the Roman Empire, the only time that Christian believers such as slaves could get time to hold special festivals together was at the time of the main feast days hence they came to be traditionally held at the times they are. Says _http://www.exposingsatanism.org_ (http://www.exposingsatanism.org) , a website that really cracks me up: "Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about using human traditions on how to worship God.... Mark: 7:7~~ Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. Mark: 7:8~~ For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. Mark: 7:9~~And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." God does not want people to honor Christ by following the traditions and customs of men." Simply put, if it's derived from a pagan tradition, it's pagan. In Harry Potter all mentions of religious holidays seem to be focused on tradition rather than actual religious celebration. That last sentence didn't manage to make this on topic at all did it? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gelite67 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 02:25:28 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 02:25:28 -0000 Subject: Whose Pensieve on HBP Cover? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128385 Tonks wrote: > > I suspect that you have to be rather advanced, but probably not an > Occlumens to use the pensive. I like the idea that DD is teaching Harry > how to use it. If that is the case, maybe baby Harry's memories are > what they are looking at. As a baby Harry would not have understood > what he was seeing, but now he could. If that is how the thing works it > would be quite remarkable. Very remarkable indeed. As I understand it a > baby only has sensations, not actual pictures or sounds. So it would be > some act of magic to take a babies memories and make it available so > that a teenage and adult could understand it. Sound exciting!! > > Angie again: Perhaps in the WW babies' memories/brains operate differently. Anything is possible with JKR. I just have this "thing" which makes me want Harry to be able to have "live" memories of his parents. And, of course, it would tell us what really happened "that night" at least from Harry's perspective. From elfundeb at gmail.com Mon May 2 02:40:51 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 22:40:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nearly The One - Was:Re: Prophecy wording - why not Neville? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80f25c3a050501194071ee2bc4@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128386 Annemehr: > I feel comfortably sure that Harry is The One. But, need Neville be > either The One or Not The One? Might it make a difference that > Neville is Nearly The One? An interesting and thought-provoking idea, though for reasons set forth in more detail below, I would find that to be very unsatisfying. Though Hogwarts was known to Neville, it still must have > been a great relief to him when his letter arrived - a rescue from his > gran's disappointment if he hadn't been magical enough. Ah, Gran's disappointment. Unfortunately for Neville, Gran's disappointment is a constant presence in his life, and admittance into Hogwarts didn't improve it much. It must have been horrible for Neville when Gran belittled his magical abilities in front of the Trio, and I imagine that's a constant thing. Remember the Remembrall she gave him? It was really useless (because it wouldn't tell you what you'd forgotten) except as a reminder of his poor memory. It's hard to know exactly why Gran torments Neville so. I sometimes think she might have acted to keep Neville safe from harm -- if he was advertised as lacking magical ability, then the DEs (and Voldemort after his return) would leave him alone. But an equally likely reason for Gran's treatment of Neville is her overwhelming disappointment that it was that Potter kid, and not *her* grandson, who defeated Voldemort. Because at that time, Frank and Alice were running neck and neck with James and Lily in defying the Dark Lord, and Frank was a popular Auror on top of that. So this is a very long-winded way of saying that for Neville to be Nearly the One would be equivalent to being a failure in Gran's eyes, and perhaps in Neville's eyes as well. And perhaps why I think that to be a success, Neville either needs to be the One, or he must chart a completely different course. Perhaps I am channeling Elkins, but I don't think it would be very satisfying at all for Neville to avenge what happened to his parents by killing Bellatrix, which many have suggested. If he did that, he would become the person Gran wants him to be, which seems to be someone very different from the person Neville is and wants to be. I think Harry would be much more likely to want revenge on Bellatrix now that she's killed Sirius. > Many of us will remember the heyday of the MemoryCharmed!Neville > theories -- that his memory was so bad, not naturally, but because > he'd either received too strong a memory charm as a toddler, or had a > memory charm broken. These theories have lost some of their > visibility of late, but still it's easy to wonder if something had > happened to him to affect his mind -- which would bear the shadow of a > similarity to the fact that Harry's mind is affected by his scar. > Whether it's a memory charm, or something else (even if it's "only" a > repressed memory), there's the possibility that Neville was marked in > some way by the Death Eaters. Being marked by Death Eaters is like > being almost marked by Voldemort, no? It's good to see someone mention the Memory Charm theories again. Despite post-OOP reports that all Memory Charm theories had sunk under Hurricane Jo, I agree with you that the theory is alive and well, though the clues are much less obvious. So I will digress for a moment to comment that there were concrete examples of memory lapses in OOP. We don't hear about Neville forgetting the passwords, but only because someone conveniently devised a password that Neville could not fail to remember; however, Neville cannot remember the name of the "Philosopher's Stone" -- he calls it the "Philological Stone." I believe there are other clues as well. To link to what I said about Gran above, it's posible that she cast a Memory Charm to make him appear inept, to keep the DEs away. (It was Uncle Algie that forced the magic out of him, IIRC.) Or it could have been a host of other candidates whom I won't mention here. > Almost the right birth, almost the right parents, almost a Muggle, > almost an orphan, maybe almost marked -- Neville really is an echo of > Harry. Will his role be an echo of Harry's role, as the secondary > hero, and above all the others? Does the fact that Neville partly > fits the prophecy (if such is indeed the fact) have a true, magical > significance? I guess what I'm saying is that Neville's narrativ function would be sad indeed if he was merely Harry's echo or his shadow. Neville demonstrated that he was *not* Harry's shadow when he stood up to the Trio in PS/SS. And while Neville worked extremely hard in the DA, and forcefully argued to accompany Harry to the DoM, he did not succeed in a single spell. Neville had a hand in destroying the prophecy, but it was sheer accident. As a shadow, he seems not to be a success. Yet he stuck around to the end, and never wavered in his determination to keep the prophecy from Voldemort. He even exhorted Harry not to give it to the DEs as they were getting ready to Crucio him. (Harry, OTOH, was ready to hand it over.) If Voldemort is to be vanquished through a means other than a great wand duel, then I think there's at least a possibility that Neville could accomplish it. If Neville is not the One, though (and I will reiterate that the odds against it are very high), instead of being Nearly the One, would it not be better for him to be recognized for something very different? I have a vision in which Neville, in an act that manifests his core virtues -- humility, steadfastness, moral courage, to name a few -- provides an essential ingredient without which Harry could not vanquish the Dark Lord, or perhaps without which Harry could not survive. Neville's perspective is unique, and often ignored. Dumbledore's recognition of Neville act of courage in PS/SS, which provided the final points Gryffindor needed for the Quidditch cup, is perhaps a foreshadowing of an such an ending. Debbie who really enjoyed reading Annemehr's post on Sin/Redemption & Snape / Christianity in HP, too From catlady at wicca.net Mon May 2 02:51:00 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 02:51:00 -0000 Subject: Prophecy/ Wizarding&MugglePlaces - FlyingFordAnglia - Funeral/ Snape/ Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128387 B.G. wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/127971 : << IMHO Neville and Harry are in this together - they will join forces to defeat the Dark Lord. >> I hope so! << But mid-Prophecy it gets disturbing, "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...." The other is LV and either/neither refer to Neville and Harry. And (they) either must die at the hand of LV for neither (of them) can live while LV survives. >> "And either (Harry or Neville) must die at the hand of the other (LV) for neither (Harry nor Neville) can live while the other (LV) survives."? I don't remember who suggested this interpretation, but I like it. Sandra wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128009 : << After re-reading book two the other night (well, flicked through it) I'm having trouble figuring out what parts of the WW are accessible (either visually or physically) to muggles, and what parts only exist through hidden doorways. For example, even though the Hogwarts Express leaves from a magical hidden platform in some kind of parallel world, Harry and Ron could chase it in their car. They didn't go through any magic gateway... >> Somewhere in some book one of the characters tells Harry: "We have our own places, like Diagon Alley and Platform 9 3/4". Apparently wizards can Apparate or Floo into Diagon Alley (and its sub-alleys, like Knockturn Alley) but can walk into it only through a hidden doorway. As far as I know, the Leaky Cauldron has the only hidden doorwar to Diagon Alley. The Leaky Cauldron is hidden by being invisible to Muggles (their eyes slide past it as if it wasn't there), but they can come in if led by a wizard -- Hermione's parents came in, presumably with her leading them. I suppose they had to hold her hands and close their eyes. But there must be two hidden doorways to Platform 9 3/4, one for pedestrians and one for the train on the track. The boys in the flying car could chase the train because it had returned to the shared/Muggle world, and the car had never left it. The Burrow is located in the shared/Muggle world; the taxis which Mrs Weasley had reserved found it okay. It's down a long road or trail from the nearest street which winds so it can't be seen from the street, so few Muggles would have a reason to go there uninvited. In addition, it probably is guarded by 'Not at all interesting' Charms. Muggles who did go there would see eccentrics living in a remarkable shack built of odds and ends with some farm animals (chickens, anyway, and I think they have a cow) hanging around (and might mutter to themselves about hippies, travellers, and crazy people who choose to live like that that shouldn't be allowed to keep children in such conditions) but I'm sure there is a charm on The Burrow so that Muggle eyes don't see how tall and gravity-defying it is. I like to think that one way Mrs Weasley adds to the family income is by selling organic eggs and milk and homemade jam to Muggles in Ottery St. Catchpole -- she brings the goods to either a farmers' market or to the houses of regular customers, I don't know which would be more normal in England, let alone to wizards. I think someplace Hermione tells Harry that Hogwarts Castle's protections include Muggle-repellingn Charms (more powerful than 'Not at all interesting' Charms, they cause Muggles who come near to suddenly remember that they very urgently have to be at some other place) and if a Muggle did come to the Castle, all the Muggle would see would be an old ruin of a castle, presumably with 'Danger: Falling Rocks' signs. Maybe a hiveload of angry bees would encourage them to stop trying to climb on the ruin. Speaking of Muggle-repellent: one of the ads on the Rumors tabloid on JKR's website is for a Muggle Deterring Doorbell: "Tried of Muggle neighbors walking in when you're got a Potion on the Boil? Weary of the scramble to hide Broomsticks when the doorbell rings?" which detects the presence of a Muggle finger and scares them away by making it sound like scary noises are coming from inside the house. The ad gives three scary noises to choose among: "ghostly wail of woe, sinister cackle of laughter, or eerie scream of pain". Personally, I don't want neighbors to associate me with ANY of those noises (that would be like volunteering to be the lynchee if, god forbid, a serial rapist/murderer of young children acted in our neighborhood). I would rather that the doorbell 'emit[ted]' cries of orgasmic pleasure, trusting the neighbors' politeness to make them go away until a more convenient time. So I suppose that most Wizarding houses are in the shared/Muggle world. The Black House is in the shared/Muggle world between two Muggle houses, hidden by the Order's Fidelius Charm and all the other spells of deterrence and defense which Sirius's father (and maybe previous ancestors) had already put on it. Whenever it went invisible (with the Fidelius or at some earlier time), it would be wise to Obliviate all the Muggles who used to see it all the time. (Shout-out to Finwitch, who answered the question before I did!) Chys wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/128264 : << I don't understand the Blacks in particular, having a house in a muggle area at all. If they're an old family, pureblood and all of that, what's the point in mingling with the 'commonfolk and muddies'? I would have thought they would be more secluded or in a more wizarding territory. This just puzzles me. >> I imagine that a roughly four square block area centered on 12 Grimmauld Place was originally Black Manor, and out in the rural countryside. The population rose over time and real estate became far more expensive and the area all around Black Manor became a concentration of Muggles, the Black ancestors had to sell off most of the land to Muggle developers for money with which (converted at Gringotts) to buy ever more Muggle-deterrence magic for the smaller-footprint replacement house they built on the bit of land that they kept. Ffred Manawydan wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128064 : << The car's an unofficial artefact. Arthur's done the work on it in his back garden. Either it doesn't have the "don't notice me" charm on it, or it's worn off (it doesn't run very well, but then it's a pretty old car!) >> IIRC the Flying Ford Anglia's Invisibility was optional -- didn't Ron press the Invisibility button at one point? << It's highly illegal for anyone in the WW to interact with the muggle world. Statute of Secrecy forbids it. >> It doesn't forbid *interacting*, as when Seamus's mother dated Muggles and married one, or old Archie bought his nightgown in a Muggle shop. It only forbids revealing magic to Muggles. Kemper wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128232 : << I been able to come up with a weak story on why Harry didn't go to Cedric's funeral. It has to do with Harry feeling uncomfortable as he witnessed it and not wanting to be around Cedric's folks and their grief. >> I wrote a fanfic about Harry going to Cedric's funeral (CofE), but you *know* the Dursleys were not going to drive him there or even give him train fare. My weak solution is that Harry flew there on his broomstick, but how did he avoid getting in trouble for being seen (like with the flying car) AND how did he get his broomstick out from wherever the Dursleys had locked it up? AyanEva wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128010 : << It's hard to like both Sirius and Severus at the same time, >> I like them both. Of course I like Severus if he were my colleague (or, better yet, subordinate!) who had to behave collegially to me. I hate him as my teacher. It's one thing to be an audience to his nastiness, enjoy the humor and sympathize with the internal psychological pain causing it, and another to be the victim of it! My feelings get hurt very bit as easily as Sevvie's, and my emotional wounds never heal any faster than his do, so I would not resemble all the listies who claim that they're grateful to the sadistically cruel teachers they had in school days by forgiving Snape! Mz_annethrope wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128099 : << according to my dictionary of surnames "Snape" means either a "boggy patch" or "a place where sheep snuffle for grass." >> Yes, but 'sneap' is 'rebuke': http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=sneap "Sneap (Page: 1362) Sneap (?), v. t. [Cf. Icel. sneypa to dishonor, disgrace, chide, but also E. snip, and snub.] 1. To check; to reprimand; to rebuke; to chide. [Obs.] Bp. Hall. 2. To nip; to blast; to blight. [Obs.] Biron is like an envious, sneaping frost. Shak. Sneap (Page: 1362) Sneap, n. A reprimand; a rebuke. [Obs.] My lord, I will not undergo this sneap without reply. Shak." Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128311 : << speculating that Snape is also the source of Hermione's knowledge of murtlap juice >> Isn't the info on murtlap juice in even the Muggle edition of FANTASTIC BEASTS, whose wizarding edition was a set book for First Year? I think it was set for DADA class, that First Years were supposed to have those lessons about grindylows and kappas and boggarts that Harry's class finally got in Third Year. Kathy J wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128117 : << Frankly my dog would leave me in six lanes of traffic to save his own skin, and would not even feel bad about it. There are dogs and then there are dogs. I just think that Sirius might be a wolf in dog's clothing. >> There are dogs and there are dogs, but I believe JKR intended Sirius to be the kind of dog which is utterly loyal and protective of its human and its human's child. She said in http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=61 that Sirius is loyal, loved James like a brother, and feels the same about Harry: <> From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 03:39:50 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 03:39:50 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128388 >>Betsy: >But isn't a statement like this once again ignoring Snape's high pass rate?< >>SSSusan: >Possibly. Yet you snipped out the part where I asked whether they might learn BETTER with someone else. It's never been my claim that no one learns from him. It would help all of us in hashing this out if we had the actual stats to look at.< Betsy: I snipped because I thought I answered a similar question further on down in the post. Is Snape a perfect teacher? No. So is there the possibility of some mythical "better" Potions teacher out there? Sure! Just as I'm sure there's a mythical "better" Transfigurations teacher - one who gets her class really *excited* about transfiguring things. I don't think *any* of JKR's teachers have achieved "perfect teacher" status. However, I *do* think Dumbledore would be hard pressed to find a better Potion's teacher than Snape. Someone with the level of expertise and the ability to force an obviously exacting and detail-oriented topic into young minds distracted by quidditch games and Hogsmead days and the latest article in WW's equivilent of Cosmo. >>Betsy: >So this is three students, out of the entire Hogwarts student body...< >>SSSusan: >...NO, I wasn't saying ONLY these three. I provided three examples; I didn't say this was the only 3 of the entire Hogwarts student body. We are *limited* in PoV, as we all know. Yet from this limited PoV, we can already see two or three who are not being reached well by this teacher... and three for sure who've been humiliated by him.< Betsy: But again, you're ignoring the statistics we *do* have. Snape's students pass the OWLs at a high rate and his classes learn at above average levels. Plus, within the limited point of view is an entire class of Gryffindors, and yet there are only three who you claim Snape is not reaching. >>SSSusan: >Still doesn't counter my point, imo, which isn't that they're not learning at all; it's that they're not learning to their potential. It's my contention that what they're learning is learned in large part in spite of Snape's methods & treatment of them.< Betsy: I guess I'm confused about what you mean about "learning to their potential." The only person in the class interested in Potions that we know of is Hermione. (The Slytherins are a complete unknown.) Everyone else seems to hate the topic and they do the homework and the reading in order to avoid being called out in the classroom. Snape is having to force information into generally reluctant minds. Potions is a required subject. Most kids would probably choose not to take such a detail oriented, non-wand waving class. Yes, the mythical "perfect" Potion's professor would have his class hanging on his every word and giddy with excitment over the next new potion, but realistically Snape does a darn good job keeping the kids motivated, alert, and learning. I feel that the kids *are* reaching their full potential - they're just being dragged kicking and screaming to get there. >>SSSusan: >Again, you have to keep in mind that when I talk about a "good" teacher, I'm talking about not just one who succeeds in disseminating information but one who brings out the MOST in his/her students. There is nothing I've seen in canon which would demonstrate Snape has done *anything* to actually try to draw out the best from (at least) these three.< Betsy: I don't think I know what you mean by bringing out the best in the students. Best what? Understanding of Potions? Hermione has certainly had her knowledged stretched. She's learned about potions way beyond her level based on comments made within Snape's lectures. She's also been challenged to be at her best with every single potion she makes. Neville's best seems to be a potion that doesn't harm his neighbors, and IIRC his potions were fairly harmless in OotP. Or are you talking about study habits, research ability, reading comprehension, etc? Because, again, with his demanding grading, Snape also seems to encourage his students to do their best with the essays he assigns. I believe Snape and McGonagall are the professors who have the reputation for giving the most difficult essay assignments. So both professors are pushing their students to higher levels of achievment. >>SSSusan: >But for those Gryffs themselves, I don't think it has the effect of drawing out their best performances. >I suspect you & I simply will never see things in quite the same light, and we're likely evaluating what makes a "good" teacher quite differently.< Betsy: I *do* agree that Snape, if he engaged the Gryffindors better (and I'm *really* curious to learn how the other houses view him), would have a less contentious classroom. Which could only be a good thing. Though I will say that about the only student who still consistently challenges him is Harry (unfortunately living up to Snape's worst expectations - but Snape brought a lot of that on himself). However, I think we do evaluate a "good" teacher differently. I think if the students learn and remember their subject, you've got a good teacher. If the teacher gives his students a strong understanding of their subject and lifts them to higher than expected levels, I'd bump that teacher up to "very good". Obviously, there's higher to go. But when folks say Snape is an indifferent or bad teacher I *really* have a hard time buying the argument. >>SSSusan: >I suspect Hermione sees the value in potions over divination, period, regardless of who's teaching. Snape, of course, would never *accept* help from Hermione. And with Umbridge, well, it's easier to develop a DADA club than a Potions club -- thinking only of necessary materials, for one thing.< Betsy: Hermione reacted to each sub-par teacher in a different way. If Snape was sub-par Hermione would *definitely* react. Not in any of the above listed ways, but I'm sure she'd figure out someway to get the type of education she wanted. >>SSSusan: >However, you're right about her never expressing that Snape has failed to meet her expectations. That begs the question: HAS he met her expectations, or has she simply selected a strategy for surviving his class (i.e., get all your work done & try your hardest)? I'll grant you that if it's the latter, and *IF* Harry & Neville had managed to do the same thing, it might've worked out better for them. But how many kids, confronted with the treatment Snape's dished out, could adopt that strategy?< Betsy: Erm... any normal kid? Seriously, that's *exactly* how you deal with a Snape-type teacher. And if you reach a level where you can actually engage your professor on the subject they teach, you're golden. I'm not exactly sure what's wrong with either that form of learning or that form of teaching. As to Hermione, I'm positive her expectations are being reached. She's learning things about potions she didn't know before, and she's been given some wonderful hints of more powerful and complex potions to come. (Snape's teaching was good enough for Hermione to feel confident about tackling the complex polyjuice potion in CoS - and good enough that Hermione didn't botch it.) >>SSSusan: >Aha! We actually do have a bit of common ground here. I think Lupin is an excellent counter-example to Snape, as is McGonagall. What we're left with is your acknowledging Snape has room for improvement but that he's still not sub-par. I'm left with acknowledging that Snape has room for improvement, and that in *some* ways (e.g., knowledge) he's not sub-par, but that he's still not a "good" teacher in my book.< Betsy: I think that sums it up beautifully. :) And I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Snape is not a perfect teacher, but he is a darn good one, IMO. Sure, he has room to grow, but he's certainly one of the better teachers at Hogwarts. IMO, anyway. Betsy From ajroald at yahoo.com Mon May 2 04:31:50 2005 From: ajroald at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 04:31:50 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128389 > Geoff: > Excuse me but Christmas and Easter are NOT pagan holidays. By > definition, they are Christian festivals. > > What you are doing is to confuse the fact that when they came into > being, they coincided with pagan festivals for the simlple reason that, > especially in the Roman Empire, the only time that Christian believers > such as slaves could get time to hold special festivals together was at > the time of the main feast days hence they came to be traditionally > held at the times they are. > > Re the Wizarding World marking Christmas etc., it indicates to me that > the festivals have some meaning for them. Otherwise they would use a > different name... Here in the UK, we are now getting one or two local > authorities who refuse to mark Christmas on PC grounds and celebrate > the "Winter Festival" or something equally vague. I hate to argue the finer points of religion, especially on a Harry Potter board, but Christmas and Easter were originally pagan holidays. Please see the following link for further explaination. http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html Any Christian overtones were placed there by the Church in an attempt to convert pagans. You are, of course, free to disagree with me. IMO, JKR included Christmas to represent the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, however, wouldn't one suspect that Hogwarts, just like many other schools, would have children with a variety of religious backgrounds? ~ Lea From yoda4presdent at aol.com Sun May 1 22:38:57 2005 From: yoda4presdent at aol.com (Belle) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 22:38:57 -0000 Subject: Theory to the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128390 Hello all! I'm new to this group and I just thought I'd lay out a theory for you all to comment, critique, and expand on. I wonder, sometimes, if Harry and Voldemort both die? Notice the prophecy says one can't live while the other survives, but who's to say they both can't live? I look at it this way: they exactly like each other, but at the same time they're the opposite. It's like an equation, they balance each other out. If you've seen the Matrix, it's kind of like that. I think that in the end, Harry will kill Voldemort but in doing so, kills himself. What do you all think?? "Belle" From ayaneva at aol.com Mon May 2 01:52:36 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 01:52:36 -0000 Subject: Sin/Redemption & Snape / Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128391 This is really, really, long. I'm really sorry if I've missed any responses or said I snipped a post in a spot where I didn't (some of the snipping was done from memory). It's taken me hours (literally) to gather all of the posts and type up responses. Hopefully I haven't been too confusing. I tried put this in a logical order of some sort so that the discussion would be easier to follow, so responses might not neccessarily be in the order that the posts were posted. I don't know if I was all that successful, but anyway. If I've messed up my formatting any, please forgive me list elves, I tried, but by this point my eyes are crossing! *rubs hands together* Let's get this show on the road! > lealess said: > I do have trouble seeing the whole redemption angle, with reference to > Snape. It seems to me that redemption has to be granted, in a > Judeo-Christian tradition, by some sort of god. It is not something > you give yourself, no matter how worthy your deeds or how pure your > intent. So will it be that Harry forgives Snape's sins, cures his > guilt, and welcomes him into final reconciliation with the good? Or > does redemption happen through death, especially through sacrifice, > leading to full acceptance by good itself? Redemption seems to be a > Judeo-Christian deus ex machina. > AyanEva responds: Would that make Harry a Christ figure? And I really hope redemption isn't through death, in Snape's case anyway. And I think you hit on something important lealess remarked: > "The word "redemption" in the Old Testament is the translation of the > Hebrew word (p???d???h), meaning "to deliver" or "to sever". It was > continuously stressed to the Israelites that they belonged to > Jehovah because He had redeemed them (severed them from bondage) and > had provided them with the land of Canaan for them to use as a gift > from God and for His glory. For this reason, all Israel owed their > lives and their service to God, in effect making the whole nation a > kingdom of priests, at least in spirit." > AyanEva questioned: So, using that definition, if you're redeemed, you're delivered from something. If we talk about redemption of Snape or any other character in HP, what exactly are they being delivered from? Does Hell exist in the HP world? We know that the soul exists, otherwise the Dementors would be useless. Ghosts are people died, but didn't cross over (To where they're crossing over? Who knows.) I'm going to guess that the answer to the afterlife really is behind that stupid Veil in the Department of Mysteries. Where does the soul go? And it must matter, considering... Slightly OT, if death is shrouded behind the Veil and it's located in the Department of Mysteries, does that mean death is a mystery and is it possible that we might never find out what's behind that stupid Veil? If we found out, that may mean that we'd know where people went when they died. Nora said in post 128309: One might say, as in the legal system, that "ignorance of the law is no excuse." One common theme seems to be examination of these concepts, struggling to determine what is right and what is not and thus exorcise the spirit of pride, which is *the* fundamental sin in Christianity (at least some formulations of it) because it sets oneself above God. The DEs who believe that they are right refuse examination of their ideas, and follow a false idol. AyanEva answers: Ok. The "ignorance of the law" phrase makes perfect sense. However, what exactly is the "law" that's being used in the HP series? Two nagging questions that I have are: Which *type* of Christianity is used in the books? For example, mainstream liberal protestant christianity has some very major differences in the interpretation of certain Christian ideals to conservative evangelistic christianity. Catholicism has a number of differences to the Baptist faith. This leads to the second question: How have the Christian teachings been personally interpreted? The second question is particularly puzzling since JKR makes a point of not answering it, and with good reason, in that Vancouver Sun article. I think that's where I'm getting hung up, what interpretation of Christianity is being used? The version that I'm familiar with and used to practice conflicts with other denominations. When I still practiced, mine left a lot of room for secularism and allows for instances of a sort of moral relativism. It's often up to the individual to interpret some of the more ambiguous teachings and there's little issue with framing biblical beliefs with regard to secular ideas. I think that brand of Christianity is probably very nearly Secular Humanism. So, that's the Christianity that I would apply to the books, which gives a much different reading than the application of a more strict version of Christianity. In light of this, when I read it, I see that determing what's right and what's wrong doesn't equate to pride and is perfectly acceptable. There are some absolutes in so far as good versus evil, like you wouldn't maliciously murder someone, but other things are very much shades of grey. I think my Christianity was very nearly Secular Humanism and eventually crossed completely over, with a fit of paganism in the middle. I've forgotten where I was trying to go with all of this. Nora stated: >From my perspective, that's a very idiosyncratic reading of that principle--which can be read a number of ways. Remember that the followup verse is "And unto God what is God's", and God commands one's moral allegiance: this has been/can be read as a call to disobey an unjust law to do the righteous thing, which is what at least some of Harry's rulebreaking falls under. JKR seems to care a great, great deal about intent. There are many ethical systems which consider intent to be of fundamental importance in ethics, and JKR seems to be flirting with some of them. Think about the Cruciatus Curse--righteous anger doesn't work for it, but one must *want* to hurt the other person. Intentions directly become results. AyanEva responds: I agree with the breaking of unjust laws, I just failed to note it in my post. But as to the specifics of the moral allegiance question, see my musings above (no point in typing twice). I also agree that intent matters a lot to JKR, and this is also where half of my brain is pounding the crap out of the otherhalf. It's in the definition. Intent as in the motives behind the actions? Or intent as in the intended end result? For the word "intent," Websters lists these definitions: 1 a : the act or fact of intending : PURPOSE; especially : the design or purpose to commit a wrongful or criminal act b : the state of mind with which an act is done : VOLITION 2 : a usually clearly formulated or planned intention : AIM 3 a : MEANING, SIGNIFICANCE b : CONNOTATION 3 synonym see INTENTION When I think of intent, I'm split between the importance of definition 1a AND definition 1b, depending on the situation. This is completely subjective, but from reading the information that JKR has given us on each character, when I think of someone like Snape, who seems to be working for the good side, I can't help but read the important definition of "intent" as 1a. The secondary 1b definition is an aside. What's emphasized is that Dumbledore trusts him, even if he does have the worst personality in the world. It seems like his actions, which the books still haven't spoken of in depth, are what's important, moreso than his belief behind the actions. When speaking of Voldemort, I get 1b as the most important. His hatred is always emphasized as a motivation for his actions, completely opposite from Snape whose actions are implied to be most important rather this his visible emotion. I don't know if this manner of interpretation is out of line with Christian thinking or what, but it's similar to what I've always thought even when I was a Christian. I'm feeling like I might be a bit unethical now... :-o :-) Nora again: I appreciate your perspective, but I think this is a case where (possibly) your horizon and the horizon of the author are going to end up radically incommensurate. The Potterverse has shades of grey, but JKR is not exactly a moral relativist: there are things that are good, and there are things that are evil. I suspect this will make itself even more and more manifest, and her own moral systems WILL show in her treatment of the characters. AyanEva this time: I think that there's a good chance that you're right and I hope I don't end up completely at odds with Book 7. That would be really unfortunate. :-( However, I hope that I can just enjoy the books objectively even if I don't agree with it all. But this is a lot of fun to study! I wish my university had offered a class on Harry Potter. Nora here: They originally coincided with pagan holidays--probably not accidental. However, as practiced today and in meaning, for a believer they are, of course, decidedly not pagan holidays. (As a side note: Wicca is maybe a hundred years old. Most 'reconstructions' of historical pagan rituals are tenuous at best.) What we have seen in the books are representations of holidays celebrated very much in the modern real-world style, chocolate eggs and all. AyanEva, yet again: I was never allowed to celebrate Christmas or Easter as religious holidays as a kid because my particular church said that they were straight up pagan holidays. You'd think I'd be able to wrap my mind around this a little better after all of the religion courses that I've taken, but I'm clueless (obviously) when it comes down to mainstream Christian religion. The Wicca was definately a hodge podge of stuff, but I view things very globally and see little difference in the intent (first definition!) of religion in general; so it didn't make much difference where the different bits of the religion came from, only that each element was in agreement with the other elements. It was the spirit of it. Hmmm, maybe that's why I can't seem to think in terms of only one religion when I'm analyzing HP; I think my mind just refuses to work that way. At least now this paragraph HP-related. Even if we knew the religions of each character, how much could we really read into the modern celebrations of things such as Easter and Christmas? Could we determine, from their religions, how much their actions or the actions of others were influenced by a specific religious belief? As such, could we determine the specific nature of morality that's being applied? An answer to that could be that JKR is the author, she's Christian, and she has final say on how things should be interpreted. But then we're right back to the question of "What type of Christianity is JKR applying?" I think that,with all of this rambling, I'm just trying to say that the combination of denomination and personal interpretation can make A LOT of difference. Just as a personal example, I gave/recieved Christmas presents and I give out Easter candy, yet it had no religious meaning for me when I was a Christian and still has no religious meaning for me now. It was just something that you did out of habit. Geoff remarked: What you are doing is to confuse the fact that when they came into being, they coincided with pagan festivals for the simlple reason that, especially in the Roman Empire, the only time that Christian believers such as slaves could get time to hold special festivals together was at the time of the main feast days hence they came to be traditionally held at the times they are. AyanEva insisted: Not to argue the point, because this isn't the main point of this post, but I'll have to insist that, while the above statements are correct, they're not the entire truth; there's a good deal more to it. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I promise (although I seem to be failing miserably). I'm just saying...I'm sure there's a flame war or something about to break out in the Christianity in HP thread, but I think Moonmyst said what I was trying to get at. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128349 Moonmyst's post in addition to mine, I think, sums it up pretty well. This fits in with my greater concern of the type and interpretation of Christianity in Harry Potter. Is it a strict interpretation of all aspects of the Christian faith, a strict interpretation of some aspects and liberal interpretation of others, or is it an interpretation that's more along the lines of what you would see with secular humanism or even Unitarian Universalism? That matters when considering the importance of things such as "religious" holidays (placed in quotes to indicate that their presence might not have much of anything to do with religion). I already noted some important differences (I think they're further up, but I've lost track by this point). Tonks also said: The HP books are so obviously books written with a Christian theme that anyone who is versed in the theology of Christianity would have to be blind not to see it. AyanEva answered: Really, it's not as obvious as one might think. I'm fairly well versed in the technicalities of Christian theology, but without faith, of which I have none, it really does make it harder to understand on the personal level that would be required in order to glean Christian teachings from the books. There are a lot of similarities between Christian ideals and the ideals of other faiths, so if you're not going in reading things with a Christian perspective, it's hard to see it as being strictly Christian: you recognize a little of all sorts of different things in there. Like I noted in my initial post about the books following a Christian theology, I'm reminded more of BCE Classical pagan epics and epics from Mesopotamia. My first thought when reading HP isn't, "Oh this is definitely Christian." If JKR's proselytizing, it's not working very well. I know that JKR is well aquainted with a lot of elements from different cultures, so my broad understanding of the underlying themes of the books can't be said to be wrong. It might not be right, but it can't be ruled out. Tonks then added: That is the genius of JKR. One could say that the gospel is being preached to all the world through these books. Some would disagree with me on that, but that is indeed what I think is being done. AyanEva quipped: I really hope not; I'll have to stop reading HP since I don't like being preached to! Just joking; mostly. I think there are certain key principles that JKR is trying to get across, but they're not exclusive only to Christianity. As for why I don't think they're exclusive, see my previous response above. Nora again: Some would like to put JKR as an Inkling, together with C. S. Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien, both authors where the Christian influence is really obvious. Since I'm a believer in her comments panning out, that one up at the top is very, very suggestive. AyanEva wondered: Lewis, I knew about, but I was clueless about Tolkien. Although, now that you mention it, I can see it. I think you're right about JKR's comments panning out, but just how they pan out and what interpretation is used is still a total mystery to me. Lupinlore added: To answer some of the questions, let me also acknowledge there really is no generic Christianity. The religion has thousands of variants, some of which violently disagree with one another. Let me answer from the perspective of my own branch, Eastern Orthodoxy (which has some strong similarities with High Church Anglicanism, as both are very influenced by Patristic sources). AyanEva agreed (and then disagreed): This is a great, short version of most of what I was trying to say. But I came to a different conclusion than your following statement. Lupinlore explained: So, to bring this back to Snape and others, once again all this means is that in the end what Snape does may not turn out to be nearly as important as who Snape is - or even more importantly, who Snape has chosen to be. Is he one of the good guys? If his actions spring from the right source, yes. If they don't, no. If he saved Harry because he believed it was in accord with the Good, he is one of the good guys. If he saved Harry because he owed it to James Potter, he is not. If he fights Voldemort because it is right to do, he is one of the good guys. If he fights Voldemort to prove he is a better man than James Potter, he is not one of the good guys. Harsh, but possible. AyanEva said: It certainly is entirely possible that things will pan out this way, but, as you noted, that's still only the interpretation from one view of Christianity. There's also very clear cases in Christianity where what you did mattered more than what you felt. What was it called in the Roman Catholic (or maybe Anglican) church where'd you pay money to absolve you of your sins? It was the worst about the time of Martin Luther maybe? It's a really simple name and I just can't quite think of it. Keep in mind, that I'm not saying that agree with the whole buy your way out of sin thing; I personally prefer that you have both definitions of "intent" in equal measure when doing something and you shouldn't be able to buy your way out of anything. But I'm willing to let that specification slide in certain circumstances where you're fighting an even greater evil. It's the relativity issue again and one that hasn't truly been proven to be absent from the HP universe. Sure I haven't proven that Harry Potter IS relative, but it's not been disproven either. (see the socks and hats argument in my initial post 128302) So, here's my effort to sum this up - When not speaking in a global sense of good versus evil, I don't think strictly modern, sacred Christian underpinnings, as defined by a specific interpretation of Christianity, which excludes a more secular relativism, are a definite. I also don't think that cultural and religious elements from other religions, geographical regions, and time periods can be ruled out. I'm sure there's a Christian influence, but when I read HP, what I recognize immediately are elements that are much older than Christianity or in conflict with other types of Christianity. Thereby making no element definitively identifiable as belonging to one religion/culture or another. And we're not talking about the practical facts of location (scotland/britai), race, etc. Keeping in line with the whole discussion, I'm referring to morality and it's definition, and in turn, redemption, the importance of actions, and the interaction between "good" and "bad." The general idea of good versus evil is obvious, but again, that sense of right versus wrong isn't exclusive to Christianity and has varied definitions and degrees depending on what perspective you view it from. Just knowing that JKR is Christian doesn't really tell me a whole lot. AyanEva (Who can no longer bend her wrist and hopes that she won't be on anyone's "bad" list after all of this) From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 2 06:43:38 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 06:43:38 -0000 Subject: Christmas in the WW (was Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > Geoff wrote: > > > > > Re the Wizarding World marking Christmas etc., it indicates to me that > > the festivals have some meaning for them. Otherwise they would use a > > different name... Here in the UK, we are now getting one or two local > > authorities who refuse to mark Christmas on PC grounds and celebrate > > the "Winter Festival" or something equally vague. > > > > > > Julie says: > In the US and Britain (and probably much of Europe, Australia, etc), > marking Christmas and celebrating it as a holiday does not mean > one holds Christian beliefs. That holiday has become a secular > holiday to many who mark it as a time to gather with loved ones > and exchange gifts. Some may have been raised Christian and > may still consider themselves nominally Christian though they no > longer worship in church, some were never raised in the church > at all, and some have lapsed from the faith. Geoff: This is my point above... "the festivals have some meaning for them." We are, as I said, getting authorities who are attempting to destroy any vestige of a link with the Christian foundation of Christmas - by taking Christ's name out of the very title of the festival. Christmas and Easter have indeed become very secularised - I for one object to the sale and advertising of Christmas presents and cards from as early as August in some shops - but the fact is that, because of the activities and expressed good wishes, many people's minds do turn, if only briefly, to the real meaning of these holidays' So, Hogwarts joins the rest of society in having Christmas trees, presents, carols, Christmas dinner etc. Agreed, some of these have come from non-Christian roots but are still there to jog the collective memories of participants to remind them of what Christians consider are the basic foundations of what life is all about, to what we see as the real meaning of worship, love and service to others. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon May 2 06:58:58 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 06:58:58 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - a maverick view.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > But then we reach "and either must die at the hand of the other for > neither can live while the other survives". This to me is a > contradiction in terms. Both Harry and Voldemort are alive. This > contradicts the prophecy; one of them should be dead and one should > be surviving . So what do we make of this? Valky: Well here's an Irony for that question? By the prophecy, if it is not a contradiction of the facts (place my bet now that it reflects the facts more than anything else we know), then one of these people (Harry/Voldemort) is already dead... What if it's The boy who "Lived", hey if misdirection is theoretically tradition employed here there's a really good chance that Harry IS Dead already.. Geoff: > To put one more ingredient into the recipe, the use of the > word "live". In the Macbeth prophecy, we saw that the use of the > word "born" was not what we expected. Coming at "live" from a > different angle, Jesus remarked at one point "I have come that they > may have life and have it to the full" (John 10:10). Could this mean > that, say, Harry could not live life to the full, to have a > satisfying and normal life while Voldemort remained and had not been > dealt with? Could this be that his life will be constricted and > hedged about and thus not as fulfilled as it ought to be for the > moment? This might be a possibility to answer the paradox of both > living while both also survive. > Valky: I've heard this angle before, and I think it's, well, weak. I am inclined to believe that JKR wouldn't bother finishing the series if the twist at the end was this because it doesn't hold a candle to the ingeniusness of the individual books. I am pretty certain we can dismiss this altogether because you just don't have to think hard enough to get to this conclusion, Sooo not Jo Rowling. Sorry Geoff but if JKR says someone's dead they're dead ;D remember. > I think I've confused myself even more now .. We've all done that with this prophecy thing. Its a challenge thats for sure. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon May 2 07:13:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 07:13:32 -0000 Subject: Oh, The Possibilities! - Trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > Geoff: > I agree that, at one time, the year began in March, hence the then > seventh to tenth months used the Latin numbers for seven to ten - > "Septem, Octo, Novem, Decem" - as part of their names. > bboyminn: I've been looking for an opportunity to drop this little fact. On a recent Astronomy program it was pointed out that up until approx 1752 the new year started in March. Also, we must keep in mind that we don't know from what 'voice' Trelawney speaks. Many Trance Mediums are channeling the voice of an ancient spirit, so it's not Trelawney's frame of reference that is important, it is the channeled source of her information. Just a bit of trivia. Steve/bboyminn From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 2 07:24:14 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 07:24:14 -0000 Subject: Nearly The One - Was:Re: Prophecy wording - why not Neville? In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a050501194071ee2bc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128395 Debbie wrote: (with massive snippage) > > Ah, Gran's disappointment. > But an equally likely reason for Gran's treatment of Neville is > her overwhelming disappointment that it was that Potter kid, and > not *her* grandson, who defeated Voldemort. But would Grannie Longbottom know about the prophesy? It certainly doesn't seem to be common knowlege, otherwise it would surely have been told to Harry as part the legend of 'The Boy Who Lived'. The Weasleys, a highly respected pure blood wizarding family, seem to have had no prior knowlege of it till OooP when Dumbledore informs all the members of The Order of its existance so that they understand the significance of keeping Harry away from the MoM. He does not seem to have told them of its content though. Lord V only knows about its existance (the 'copy' in the MoM) because Rockwood, a DE who works in the Dept of Mysteries, has told him it's there. I think, therefore, that Gran does not know about the prophesy and is just disappointed that her grandson is not living up to the legacy of his 'respected auror' father. Because of this she chastises him at every opportunity thereby putting a massive dent into his confidence. Incidentally I think that his abilities will improve even further now that he will have to have his own wand and no longer has to use his father's old one; one that I'm sure he has been made to feel totally unworthy of. Karen From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Mon May 2 08:00:20 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 08:00:20 -0000 Subject: Theory to the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Belle" wrote: > Hello all! I'm new to this group and I just thought I'd lay out > a theory for you all to comment, critique, and expand on. I > wonder, sometimes, if Harry and Voldemort both die? Notice the > prophecy says one can't live while the other survives, but who's > to say they both can't live? I look at it this way: they exactly > like each other, but at the same time they're the opposite. It's > like an equation, they balance each other out. If you've seen the > Matrix, it's kind of like that. I think that in the end, Harry > will kill Voldemort but in doing so, kills himself. What do you > all think?? > > > "Belle" John: Indeed, "either must die at the hand of the other" can easily be read as *both* "must die at the hand of the other". "Either" can mean "both" as much as it means, well, *either*. John. From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Mon May 2 05:56:50 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 01:56:50 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Snape - Legilimens, Occlumens (was Re: Whose Pensieve on HBP Cover?) References: Message-ID: <4275C122.000001.03684@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 128397 Carol again: > You seem to be confusing Legilimens (someone who can see other > people's thoughts and memories) with an Occlumens, who can > *block* another person's Legilimency to prevent his own thoughts > from being read. Voldemort is a Legilimens; Snape is an Occlumens. > Dumbledore seems to be both. snipped Donna Says: I think Snape has both abilities of Legilimens and Occlumens. There are many times that Harry felt that Snape could read minds. I feel that Snape is more advanced in magic than meets the eye. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 2 12:43:21 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:43:21 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - a maverick view.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: Valky: > Well here's an Irony for that question? By the prophecy, if it is not > a contradiction of the facts (place my bet now that it reflects the > facts more than anything else we know), then one of these people > (Harry/Voldemort) is already dead... What if it's The boy who "Lived", > hey if misdirection is theoretically tradition employed here there's a > really good chance that Harry IS Dead already.. Geoff: Being, like Winnie-the-Pooh, a bear of very little brain, would you care to expand on that for my benefit? Valky: > I've heard this angle before, and I think it's, well, weak. I am > inclined to believe that JKR wouldn't bother finishing the series if > the twist at the end was this because it doesn't hold a candle to the > ingeniusness of the individual books. I am pretty certain we can > dismiss this altogether because you just don't have to think hard > enough to get to this conclusion, Sooo not Jo Rowling. Sorry Geoff but > if JKR says someone's dead they're dead ;D remember. Geoff: Yes, but who has she said is dead? From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Mon May 2 12:45:55 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 05:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Oh, The Possibilities! - Trivia In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050502124555.16240.qmail@web53910.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128399 Steve wrote I've been looking for an opportunity to drop this little fact. On a recent Astronomy program it was pointed out that up until approx 1752 the new year started in March. Lynn: To add to your trivia, this is some information I picked up when doing some research on April Fool's Day. "The closest point in time that can be identified as the beginning of this tradition was in 1582, in France. Prior to that year, the new year was celebrated for eight days, beginning on March 25. The celebration culminated on April 1. With the reform of the calendar under Charles IX, the Gregorian Calendar was introduced, and New Year's Day was moved to January 1. However, communications being what they were in the days when news traveled by foot, many people did not receive the news for several years. Others, the more obstinate crowd, refused to accept the new calendar and continued to celebrate the new year on April 1. These backward folk were labeled as "fools" by the general populace. They were subject to some ridicule, and were often sent on "fools errands" or were made the butt of other practical jokes. " test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 2 12:47:01 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:47:01 -0000 Subject: Oh, The Possibilities! - Trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: bboyminn: > I've been looking for an opportunity to drop this little fact. On a > recent Astronomy program it was pointed out that up until approx 1752 > the new year started in March. Geoff: I think that was the year, when we switched from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar and a number of days (was it 17?) were dropped out of the year to catch up and there were riots and demonstrations because poorer folk actually believed that they had lost that number of days from their lives. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 2 12:53:16 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 12:53:16 -0000 Subject: Oh, The Possibilities! - Trivia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > wrote: > > bboyminn: > > > I've been looking for an opportunity to drop this little fact. On a > > recent Astronomy program it was pointed out that up until approx 1752 > > the new year started in March. > > Geoff: > I think that was the year, when we switched from the Julian to the > Gregorian calendar and a number of days (was it 17?) were dropped out > of the year to catch up and there were riots and demonstrations because > poorer folk actually believed that they had lost that number of days > from their lives. Geoff: Answering my own question, I just attacked Google and found that, for the UK and the American colonies, it was 1752 and it was 11 days, the date jumping from 2nd September 1752 to 14th September. The reference I followed was: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/GregorianCalendar.html From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon May 2 13:23:06 2005 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:23:06 -0000 Subject: Nearly The One - Was:Re: Prophecy wording - why not Neville? In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a050501194071ee2bc4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128402 I'm going to respond to some of Debbie's points in her reply, but in the end I think we are not really so far apart on this, as you will see...at the end. Annemehr, before: > Though Hogwarts was known to Neville, it still must have > > been a great relief to him when his letter arrived - a rescue from his > > gran's disappointment if he hadn't been magical enough. Debbie: > Ah, Gran's disappointment. Unfortunately for Neville, Gran's > disappointment is a constant presence in his life, and admittance into > Hogwarts didn't improve it much. Annemehr again: It is true that Neville must live "under the eye" of his Gran to some extent even at Hogwarts. It still must have been wonderful to be freed of the fate of squibdom (or near-squibdom at least) by the arrival of the first Hogwarts letter. Imagine if he'd had to stay at home with her! Apparently the issue was still in doubt, even after the bouncing episode: "And you should have seen their faces when I got in here - they thought I might not be magic enough to come, you see. Great-Uncle Algie was so pleased he bought me my toad." And after all, Harry is not entirely free of the Dursleys, either; he still has to go back every summer. Debbie: > So this is a very long-winded way of saying that for Neville to be > Nearly the One would be equivalent to being a failure in Gran's eyes, > and perhaps in Neville's eyes as well. And perhaps why I think that > to be a success, Neville either needs to be the One, or he must chart > a completely different course. Annemehr: Perhaps it would be a failure in Gran's eyes, but I don't see it for Neville. Neville is not the type to resent someone for having more glory or prominence than he has. Nobody who has any idea what's going on will want to be Harry, anyway, but the ones who care will want to help. Neville will want to do what he can. Debbie: > Perhaps I am channeling Elkins, but I don't think it would be very > satisfying at all for Neville to avenge what happened to his parents > by killing Bellatrix, which many have suggested. If he did that, he > would become the person Gran wants him to be, which seems to be > someone very different from the person Neville is and wants to be. I > think Harry would be much more likely to want revenge on Bellatrix now > that she's killed Sirius. Annemehr: I'm with you here; I never believed Neville will end up killing her. As far as I'm concerned, he proved himself beautifully when he defied Bellatrix's cruciatus curse, the curse he couldn't bear to see a spider suffer, to urge Harry not to give up the prophecy. Even if he bests her in some future fight, I don't see him killing her, nor do I think overcoming her by force is his purpose as a character. Debbie: > I guess what I'm saying is that Neville's narrative function would be > sad indeed if he was merely Harry's echo or his shadow. Neville > demonstrated that he was *not* Harry's shadow when he stood up to the > Trio in PS/SS. > If Voldemort is to be vanquished > through a means other than a great wand duel, then I think there's at > least a possibility that Neville could accomplish it. If Neville is > not the One, though (and I will reiterate that the odds against it are > very high), instead of being Nearly the One, would it not be better > for him to be recognized for something very different? Annemehr: Well, I'm not sure I made the spirit of my theory very clear then. I never meant for Neville to be, as a person, merely the shadow or copy or hanger-on of another person. I do not think he will do the same thing that Harry has to do only in a lesser or weaker version. Looking back at my next to last paragraph of that post, I see I may have given that impression. What I was really thinking of was something like this: Debbie wrote: > I have a vision in which Neville, in an act that manifests his core > virtues -- humility, steadfastness, moral courage, to name a few -- > provides an essential ingredient without which Harry could not > vanquish the Dark Lord, or perhaps without which Harry could not > survive. Neville's perspective is unique, and often ignored. > Dumbledore's recognition of Neville act of courage in PS/SS, which > provided the final points Gryffindor needed for the Quidditch cup, is > perhaps a foreshadowing of an such an ending. Annemehr: That's it! You found the words I couldn't. Neville will be crucial to vanquishing Voldemort. Harry will take the brunt of it, but Neville will be unique among his allies. And they will both do it by their core virtues. I think of the prophecy not as merely a bit of news that came out of the mouth of a seer, but as a direct manifestation of the powerful magic that will occur in LV's defeat. Since that powerful magic will be mainly Harry's, but aided in a crucial way by Neville's, Neville's birth and the prophecy reflect that. If Harry was "born to shoulder a certain burden" (JKR on The Diane Rehm Show, Dec. 1999), Neville was born to aid him in a certain way. Both boys were called forth into existence, and heralded by a seer, but one is even more hidden than the other. That's my theory -- I'm subscribing to this one until Jo tells me otherwise. There is no shame for Neville in this role; in fact, it elevates him above all Harry's other allies in a way. It also gives we "Harry's The One" devotees a handy place to store our nagging "why mention Neville" questions until Jo tells us for sure. ;) > Debbie > who really enjoyed reading Annemehr's post on Sin/Redemption & Snape / > Christianity in HP, too Thank you! Took me half of Saturday, that one. :) ------------------------------------------------------ In a reply to Debbie, Karen wrote: > But would Grannie Longbottom know about the prophesy? It certainly > doesn't seem to be common knowlege, otherwise it would surely have > been told to Harry as part the legend of 'The Boy Who Lived'. It certainly seems that very few actually know it exists, let alone what is says (can you imagine Molly Weasley after finding that out?), but it's very likely that Lily, James, Frank, and Alice knew. From there, it's no great stretch to think that Gran Longbottom does, too, even if Dumbledore does not subscribe to any of our theories that Neville is still a part of it. Annemehr who searched Quick Quotes Quill for "shoulder" for that JKR quote, and was dismayed to find that it helpfully returned all the entries for "should" as well -- about eighty of them! From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon May 2 13:51:51 2005 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 13:51:51 -0000 Subject: Sin/Redemption & Snape / Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128403 > > lealess said: > > > I do have trouble seeing the whole redemption angle, with reference to > > Snape. It seems to me that redemption has to be granted, in a > > Judeo-Christian tradition, by some sort of god. I think, in discussing a fictional character, it's the reader who grants (or does not grant) redemption. In the past, for example, there have been fervent arguments about whether Barty Crouch Sr. had redeemed himself in his struggle to get to Hogwarts to warn Dumbledore about his son and LV. Neither side budged, as I recall. ;) But when it comes to a character's final judgement, unless the author usurps the position (Dante, C.S.Lewis), the reader is the god. As far as what's beyond the veil in the Potterverse, what exactly is the "Next Great Adventure," I personally doubt that JKR will get specific. It is probably enough for her that she's written the existence of the afterlife at all. As for the ghosts, I can't help wondering what happens if they go through the veil. In a tiny fanfic for a Leaky Cauldron contest, I sent a triumphant Myrtle through it to the Other Side. Annemehr From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 2 14:21:06 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 14:21:06 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128404 Betsy: > I guess I'm confused about what you mean about "learning to their > potential." > I feel that the kids *are* reaching their full potential - they're > just being dragged kicking and screaming to get there. > However, I think we do evaluate a "good" teacher differently. I > think if the students learn and remember their subject, you've got a > good teacher. If the teacher gives his students a strong > understanding of their subject and lifts them to higher than > expected levels, I'd bump that teacher up to "very good". SSSusan: I've snipped it all down to this, because 1) I'm at work with little time to devote to this and 2) I think it's a good distillation of the difference between us. Snape is, imo, fully prepared to teach, in terms of the CONTENT of the course. Snape is, imo, fully competent to DEMONSTRATE potionmaking. Snape has, imo, a real love of potionmaking. So far, so good, right? :-) However -- and for *me* it's a big "however" -- what Snape lacks is the desire to do what I think a person has to do to qualify as a truly "good" teacher: work to bring out the best in each of his students. In fact, he does something worse than ignore that part of teaching; he actively takes actions which cause the opposite in some students. Because of the availability of information in canon, I'm focusing on Hermione, Neville & Harry. When Snape started with Harry's & his classmates, he HAD a student who was all gung-ho and enthusiastic in Hermione. Now, should he allow her to share all her knowledge, should he call on her every time her hand is in the air? Of course not. Who among us *hasn't* been in a class with someone like Hermione? A teacher who lets a student like that do ALL the work is not in control of the class and is not helping anyone. OTOH, has he done anything to encourage her enthusiasm or her love of learning? Not that I can see, and in fact, he's pushed her down. He has insulted her and called her a "know-it- all" in front of her peers. Is that the mark of a "good" teacher? In Neville, Snape faced a kid who's naturally bumbling & nervous, and Snape's berating and intimidation have served to make Neville MORE nervous & bumbling. I offer up, yet again, Neville's Snape!Boggart in Year 3. And *if* Neville has made progress in Potions since then, I'd still argue that it has been in spite of Snape, not because of his good teaching. IOW, Snape has done nothing to assist Neville in overcoming his weaknesses besides yelling at him. I don't see that as good teaching. When Harry entered Snape's class, he had no reason to dislike Snape, yet Snape has fostered a loathing and mistrust that have made Harry SHUT DOWN, rather than work hard. Is that partially Harry's fault? You betcha. But were Snape's actions and his continual, across-FIVE- years, fostering of that animosity the mark of a *good* teacher? Not to me. In my opinion, in each of these cases, we find examples of a teacher who does not bring out the best in a student. There is *always* a responsibility on the student's part, too. Yet for a teacher to be considered a really good teacher in my book, s/he will have to NOT do things which actively cause a student to do much less than he or she could do. Of course, the actions taken are in character and very Snape-like. I'm not saying Snape could have managed to do it any other way, given what I see as his "limitations" (hee). What I am saying is that, because of his actions with these three students (at least), I cannot call him a "good" teacher. YMMV of course. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 2 14:22:50 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 14:22:50 -0000 Subject: Trelawney (was Can(n)ons and Teachers: McGonagall (was Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128405 > > Sophierom: snip > > Trelawney's opening speech is "extraordinary" in the most basic sense of that word, and she uses dramatic language and eye contact to reach her audience (103). snip She also knows when to end her performance: after she's "predicted" > Harry's death, Hermione confronts her, threatening her authority, and Trelawney quickly brings an end to the class (103-108). snip Potioncat: All very good points! Everything we see IMHO shows Trelawney as something of a fraud. Yet, both Lavender and Parvarti are deeply impressed by her and there are indications that they spend extra time with her. Pethaps they do have some skill? IIRC, it was Percy who recommended Divination to Harry (back in CoS) Does anyone have a copy to verify that? Yet, Percy doesn't seem the Trelawney type, does he? I always wondered why, other than the writer keeping the Gryffindors together, so many of that group selected Divination? Unless of course it is the "easy" class of that list of choices. From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 14:40:03 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 14:40:03 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neville/ Does Snape help students reach their true potential? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128406 Betsy: I don't think I know what you mean by bringing out the best in the students. Best what? Understanding of Potions? Hermione has certainly had her knowledged stretched. She's learned about potions way beyond her level based on comments made within Snape's lectures. She's also been challenged to be at her best with every single potion she makes. Neville's best seems to be a potion that doesn't harm his neighbors, and IIRC his potions were fairly harmless in OotP. Alla: I for the most part agree with what Susan said in her reply, but I specifically wanted to comment on " Neville's best". How do you know that Neville's best seems to be a potion that does not harm his neighbors? Is Neville REALLY that hopeless in Potions or maybe a teacher of whom he is terrified makes him to be that hopeless? There is IMO a possible hint in canon ( and I realise that this is a hint nothing more) that Neville's true potential in Potions is so much higher than what he shows in Snape's classes. Neville performs remarkably well in Herbology classes. Now, I am not saying that those two classes are the same, far from it, BUT both Herbology and Potions deal with plants, herbs, A LOT. To me the fact that Neville does well in Herbology says not only that he does better under Professor Sprout, but also that he MAY BE interested in what can be done with plants and herbs in their different capacity, such as how to make potions with them. Nope, I am not sure that Snape helps Neville reach his true potential, not sure at all. Susan: When Harry entered Snape's class, he had no reason to dislike Snape, yet Snape has fostered a loathing and mistrust that have made Harry SHUT DOWN, rather than work hard. Is that partially Harry's fault? You betcha. But were Snape's actions and his continual, across-FIVE- years, fostering of that animosity the mark of a *good* teacher? Not to me. Alla: I agree 99.99% with your post, except that I don't see any fault on Harry's actions in first class. :-) Harry is guilty of misgivings in his dealings with Snape later on, although often not those that Snape wants to punish him for, but I firmly convinced that in that first lesson he was absolutely blameless and that was the lesson that set tone to their relationship. Just my opinion of course, Alla. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon May 2 15:40:09 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:40:09 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128407 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ReturnOfTheMutt at a... wrote: > > "Jesus spoke to the Pharisees about using human traditions on how to worship God.... (Snipped Mark 7:7-9) > "God does not want people to honor Christ by following the traditions and customs of men." > Simply put, if it's derived from a pagan tradition, it's pagan. In Harry Potter all mentions of religious holidays seem to be focused on tradition rather than actual religious celebration. Tonks: (Oh I am going to have to find a way to pull this one back on topic by the end.) The quote from Mark is taken out of context. Jesus is talking about God's laws and the ritual customs of the Jews. His disciples were criticized for not doing the rituals before they ate. They are not following the traditions of the temple elders. He goes on to say that they are justifying going against the commandments of God, because of the laws of their tradition. It has nothing to do with paganism. Paganism isn't even the subject here. Jesus, a Jew, is talking to others Jews about the ritual traditions of their religion. And the Jewish religion is not a pagan religion. As to HP. Yes, JKR could well be using the Christian religious celebrations of Christmas and Easter in a secular way, just as they are observed in secular society by folks that are not Christian. I agree that is a possibility. I have never said that Harry or any of the WW or MW folks are Christian. What I have said it that JKR is using Christian symbolism in the books to teach what is basically a Christian story. You can all buy me a butterbeer at the end of book 7, when you say "ya, Tonks, you were right." Tonks_op From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 2 15:45:36 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 15:45:36 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neville/ Does Snape help students reach their true potential? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128408 Alla: snip > There is IMO a possible hint in canon ( and I realise that this is a > hint nothing more) that Neville's true potential in Potions is so > much > higher than what he shows in Snape's classes. > > Neville performs remarkably well in Herbology classes. Now, I am not > saying that those two classes are the same, far from it, BUT both > Herbology and Potions deal with plants, herbs, A LOT. > Potioncat: First, I agree, Snape is not a good teacher, even though his classes seem to have learned much more than they realize. And they've learned enough that away from Snape, they perform better. It says something that OWLs are less stressful than attending class! But IMO, Neville is a special case. I don't think McGonagall is having much luck pushing him to potential either. And she's gotten irritated enough to be sarcastic with him. I'm away from my books, but I'm not sure if we know how he does in Charms with a kind teacher like Flitwick. It seems it's Seamus who has trouble in there. (Or is that movie contamination?) From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon May 2 16:12:03 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 16:12:03 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neville/ Does Snape help students reach their true potential? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128409 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > I for the most part agree with what Susan said in her reply, but I > specifically wanted to comment on " Neville's best". > > How do you know that Neville's best seems to be a potion that does > not harm his neighbors? > > Is Neville REALLY that hopeless in Potions or maybe a teacher of > whom he is terrified makes him to be that hopeless? > > There is IMO a possible hint in canon ( and I realise that this is a > hint nothing more) that Neville's true potential in Potions is so > much higher than what he shows in Snape's classes. There's an even better hint when Neville and Harry are taking their Potions OWL: "With Snape absent from the proceedings, he (AD: Harry) found that he was much more relaxed than he usually was while making potions. Neville, who was sitting very near Harry, also looked happier than Harry had ever seen him during a Potions class." --"Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" This is the smoking wand--Harry and Neville both perform better without Snape skulking around. Snape's "teaching style" hinders them both. Amiable Dorsai From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 2 17:30:30 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 17:30:30 -0000 Subject: The Nature of a Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128410 I have some difficulty believing your "Dementor as a Spiritual being" statement. If they are spiritual beings why do they look (and smell) like decayed corpses? And what do you mean by "It is especially tuned into Human Beings"? Whatever they are they are certainly not HUMAN beings ? that much we can be sure of. Besides, they can't be both human and spiritual. Given their slightly Freddy Krugerish appearance I'd say that it's more likely that they are a by-product of some of the "Darker" wizards dabbling in necromancy. That's why DD called them LV's "natural allies". Voldemort is his very own Frankenstein and the Monster in one and he owes his present state to some ghastly Dark Arts experiments with necromantic overtones ? all this "bones of the father, flesh of the servant" stuff etc. Moreover, their ultimate weapon ? the Kiss ? reduces their victims to the state of soulless bodies ? also kind of necromancy in reverse. Another thing: the idea of sucking one's soul with a kiss has a definite literary source, I mean Marlowe's "Dr. Faustus", of course. Naturally, in the HP books we deal with a deliberate travesty of the initial courtoise metaphor, yet here we have this necromancy theme again, by association with Faustus. a_svirn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon May 2 18:27:01 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 18:27:01 -0000 Subject: The Nature of a Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > I have some difficulty believing your "Dementor as a Spiritual > being" statement. If they are spiritual beings why do they look (and > smell) like decayed corpses? And what do you mean by "It is > especially tuned into Human Beings"? Whatever they are they are > certainly not HUMAN beings ? that much we can be sure of. Besides, > they can't be both human and spiritual. > > ...edited... > > a_svirn bboyminn: First, whether true or not, I think Tonks explanation of the Dementors was brilliant. In addition, I think you missed one of Tonks' key points where she(?) compared Ghosts to Dementors. Ghosts are moving from the physical world to the spiritual world, but they are stuck half way. While they have become spirits, intangible, their soul has not crossed over to what Tonks refers to as 'The Light', and despite being spirits, they still cling to their earthly Self, maintaining their earthly shape and personality. Dementors in Tonks' theory are moving in the opposite direction, they are moving from the realm of pure spiritual essense, The Light, into the physical realm, and much like ghosts, they are stuck half way. However because they are moving toward the physical, they do take on some physical essense, just as ghost have taken on some essense of the spiritual. It is because the Dementors have not full entered into the realm of the physical that they take on the appearance that they do. They have enough physical essense about them to gore and decay, but not enough to actually die, and further not enough to actually live or become fully physically realized. Again, they are like ghost, trapped between life and death, just moving in the opposite direction of ghosts. Lending weight to Tonks' theory is the concept of the Angel of Death, the gatherer of souls, which is most often depicted in physical form that is VERY close to that of the Dementors. Hope I got that right Tonks. In any event, we may never know for sure if it is true, but it still stands as an excellent speculation. Steve/bboyminn From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 2 19:09:44 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:09:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione and Snape. Was: Re: Accio 2005 press releaseTrial of Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128412 > SSSusan: Still doesn't counter my point, imo, which isn't that they're not learning at all; it's that they're not learning to their potential. It's my contention that what they're learning is learned in large part in spite of Snape's methods & treatment of them. > Again, you have to keep in mind that when I talk about a "good" teacher, I'm talking about not just one who succeeds in disseminating information but one who brings out the MOST in his/her students. There is nothing I've seen in canon which would demonstrate Snape has done *anything* to actually try to draw out the best from (at least) these three. > > Now, as Shaun might point out, there may be kids who would happen to thrive on what this nasty, insulting, sadistic (JKR's word) teacher does, but in my mind at least two of these three aren't in that camp. > Betsy: > > Oh, there's definitely room for improvement. Probably the best > > teacher at Hogwarts, IMO, has been Lupin. He not only taught his > > students, but he got them enthusiastic about his subject and > > excited to learn. And yes, Snape has a long way to go to achieve > > that level of teaching, but I haven't seen any hard evidence put > > forward that points to him being a sub-par teacher. > > SSSusan: > Aha! We actually do have a bit of common ground here. I think > Lupin is an excellent counter-example to Snape, as is McGonagall. Pippin: We have canon that Snape is a better teacher for Hermione, in the sense of helping her reach her potential, than Lupin. Lupin doesn't teach her to fight her boggart. And it's Snape who assigns the werewolf essay. Though she already knew more about werewolves than anyone else in the class, it was doing that essay that enabled her to identify Lupin. I think this goes to what Shaun was saying. Hermione garners praise so easily that praise, much as it pleases her, won't motivate her to stretch. Obviously, being called an insufferable know-it-all *didn't* discourage her, even though it brought her to tears. It may have made her all the more determined to *show* Snape. Snape doesn't seem interested in pushing Hermione harder in potions, but should he be? Children aren't sausages to be stuffed with all the knowledge they can hold. Midway through her second year, Hermione's knowledge of potions had already outstripped her discretion about using them. If I were Snape, I wouldn't be pushing, I'd be holding my breath and hoping Hermione's judgment caught up with her potion making abilities before she managed to kill someone. Pippin From jaanise at hello.lv Mon May 2 19:39:52 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JaanisE) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 22:39:52 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Snape and Neville/ Does Snape help students reach their true potential? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c54f4e$b6904a00$0fc6f554@janis> No: HPFGUIDX 128413 -----Original Message----- From: Amiable Dorsai There's an even better hint when Neville and Harry are taking their Potions OWL: "With Snape absent from the proceedings, he (AD: Harry) found that he was much more relaxed than he usually was while making potions. Neville, who was sitting very near Harry, also looked happier than Harry had ever seen him during a Potions class." --"Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" This is the smoking wand--Harry and Neville both perform better without Snape skulking around. Snape's "teaching style" hinders them both. --------------------------- Jaanis: OWL exams are not about *teaching* but about *testing*. Not saying anything about Snape's ability to teach, I just point out the difference. You cannot use the mentioned fact as an argument against Snape's "teaching style". From feenyjam at msu.edu Mon May 2 18:52:34 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 18:52:34 -0000 Subject: LV wasn't fulfilling the Prophesy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128414 > Cheryl says: > > I think the point DD was making is that if he'd done NOTHING, > > if he'd not attacked either boy, neither of them would have > > been 'marked', he'd have won and he'd have not spent 15 or so > > years floating around as vapormort. Angie says further: > I'm sorry -- perhaps I'm being obtuse, but how would he have > "won" if he had not attacked or marked either boy? Greenfirespike says: I have to agree with Angie, and disagree with those who think that LV would have won had he not `marked' Harry. LV refraining from `marking' either child, does not undermine the prophesy. Logically, if LV refrains from `marking' either child, both will grow up and become fully grown and trained wizards. Odds are that both H and N will grow up with a strong dislike for LV, and wish to join his parents in the fight. At some point, LV and H/N will have to come to blows, and the `marking' can occur there as well. Take this to the extreme, H and N grow up, become powerful wizards, and confront LV. He has two choices: 1) fight back and risk `marking' one of the boys, or 2) get pushed around but know he can't be destroyed/killed unless he has `marked' one. Thus, H or N could end LV's credibility if LV opts for option two. This all supports my idea about LV's timeline after hearing the prophesy and why he attacked in post 128159. Greenfirespike, (who would like to thank Shorty Elf for pointing out a possible misquote) From skater314159 at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 2 18:38:00 2005 From: skater314159 at yahoo.co.uk (Megan) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 18:38:00 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128415 Geoff: > Excuse me but Christmas and Easter are NOT pagan holidays. By > definition, they are Christian festivals. (I do hope that I am quoting correctly, as I had troubles following the thread there - very confusing since so many people have talked about this...) Skater 3.14159 comments: "Christmas" originally was the celebration of the Winter Solstice, and "Easter" was related to the Spring Equinox and is named after Ostara, a fertility goddess... BUT the thing is that *most* cultures celebrate religious events at the following times of the year: equinoxes (spring and fall) and the solstices (winter and summer) because those are related to celestial phenomena that affect life on earth (harvests, legnth of day, etc.) that are easily observable and relate to religious symbolism well... and I think that JKR uses mostly *Christian* examples of festivals that occur near those dates because most readers can understand them (since most English-speaking readers are some kind of Christian). If she used Jewish, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist or obscure days, then it would not translate well, and many would not get the symbolism or main idea. It does not bother me that she talks about Halloween, Christmas or Easter in her books because they are a part of life (in school they are holidays that you get breaks for -no matter what your faith/religious preference) and I enjoy celebrating them even though I am not Christian. But that is just my opinion. Skater3.14159 From dk59us at yahoo.com Mon May 2 19:49:21 2005 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:49:21 -0000 Subject: Prophecy wording - why not Neville? In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0505011803737099eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128416 Debbie wrote: > In the quote referred to in #128287, JKR does tell us that > Dumbledore "explains" why Voldemort picked Harry. But my skeptical > mind wants to know how Dumbledore knows this before I can treat it > as fact. And a good writer should convey this information in the > books themselves. It's not enough that she tells us elsewhere to > believe him. As it stands, I think the Book Day statement could be > misdirection; she answered by telling us what a character said in > the book. Then GEO: > > Actually in the words of the writer he is the most omniscient > > character in the book though I for one would argue that there is a > > difference in mistakes made by him because of errors in judgement > > and errors in fact and knowledge. > Debbie queried: > Again, can you provide a cite for this? I don't recall her ever > saying anything about Dumbledore being omniscient. > And GEO responded: www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2001/1101-bbcibristoltransc.html Now Eustace_Scrubb: Yes but the reply is an aside in a response where JKR is talking about the frustrations of dealing with journalists, specifically being labelled as "left wing" and "right wing" on the same day. She does refer to Dumbledore as "the most omniscient character" when pointing to his speech at the end of GOF downplaying "differences of language and habit" as a sign that she (the author) is not a Euro-sceptic. She's not directly answering a question about Dumbledore's omniscience. Further, she doesn't say he's omniscient. She says he's the "most omniscient" character. What does that mean? It could mean there are multiple omniscient characters in the book and Dumbledore is the "most omniscient" of them all. (Bit of an oxymoron there) But who are the other characters who are omniscient but not quite as omniscient as Dumbledore? The centaurs may be candidates, but frankly they've not shown much evidence of omniscience so far, just their own belief that they are. Voldemort? He has many skills but omniscience seems not to be one of them. Or she could mean that he comes closest of all the characters to being omniscient. In other words, _nobody_ in the series is omniscient, but Dumbledore is the "most omniscient." I don't think this particular quote, when read in context, does much more for us than the one where she's asked "Does Dumbledore speak for you?" and she replies "Oh yes, very much so." only to qualify it in the next sentence: "Dumbledore often speaks for me." Not always, but often. "When?" is the unanswered followup. I think it's more likely that Dumbledore often expresses JKR's point of view on matters than that he always has the same knowledge as the author. That's what her invocation of Dumbledore's speech in connection with Euroscepticism would indicate. Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 2 20:07:06 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 20:07:06 -0000 Subject: The Nature of a Dementor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > I have some difficulty believing your "Dementor as a Spiritual > > being" statement. If they are spiritual beings why do they look (and > > smell) like decayed corpses? And what do you mean by "It is > > especially tuned into Human Beings"? Whatever they are they are > > certainly not HUMAN beings ? that much we can be sure of. Besides, > > they can't be both human and spiritual. > > > > ...edited... > > > > a_svirn > > bboyminn: > > First, whether true or not, I think Tonks explanation of the Dementors > was brilliant. In addition, I think you missed one of Tonks' key > points where she(?) compared Ghosts to Dementors. > > Ghosts are moving from the physical world to the spiritual world, but > they are stuck half way. While they have become spirits, intangible, > their soul has not crossed over to what Tonks refers to as 'The > Light', and despite being spirits, they still cling to their earthly > Self, maintaining their earthly shape and personality. > > Dementors in Tonks' theory are moving in the opposite direction, they > are moving from the realm of pure spiritual essense, The Light, into > the physical realm, and much like ghosts, they are stuck half way. > However because they are moving toward the physical, they do take on > some physical essense, just as ghost have taken on some essense of the > spiritual. > > It is because the Dementors have not full entered into the realm of > the physical that they take on the appearance that they do. They have > enough physical essense about them to gore and decay, but not enough > to actually die, and further not enough to actually live or become > fully physically realized. Again, they are like ghost, trapped between > life and death, just moving in the opposite direction of ghosts. > > Lending weight to Tonks' theory is the concept of the Angel of Death, > the gatherer of souls, which is most often depicted in physical form > that is VERY close to that of the Dementors. > > Hope I got that right Tonks. In any event, we may never know for sure > if it is true, but it still stands as an excellent speculation. > > Steve/bboyminn Why Steve, thanks for your explanation. But I didn't miss the comparison; I just don't think that we have enough ground to make one. (And Tonks didn't provide examples to support her theory, anyway). Yes, Ghosts are indeed stuck between the two realms as the souls that lost their bodies. But is there anything (I mean ANYTHING!) in the books to suppose that Dementors are spiritual being moving into the opposite direction? Besides, such a journey is kind of pointless: a bodiless soul would eventually "join the light" one hopes, but a soulless body? When it finally "becomes fully physically realized" as you put, it what? Rots away and disintegrates? A strange ambition for "the Angel of Death, the gatherer of souls". And yes, you are right; there is no denying that Dementors have a medieval Grim Reaper look about them. But this kind of folk mythology has very little to do with dogmatic Christianity or indeed any other elaborate theological explorations. I don't think that we should boldly identify the Grim Reaper with "Sprits fallen from the Light" and even with the Angel of Death for that matter (especially since the latter gathers Jewish and Muslim souls as well as Christian). JKR writes about witches and wizards practicing their witchcraft and wizardry and she delights in playing with medieval demonology and folk mythology. Of course, she twists it for her purposes and invests it with new meanings, yet her representation of Dark Arts is based loosely on medieval concepts of magic and necromancy. This is especially true for Dementors: for they owe their appearance (and in slightly warped way, their purpose) to the medieval Grim Reaper and their Kiss to a Renaissance rendition of a medieval legend about the renowned necromant. a_svirn From ayaneva at aol.com Mon May 2 19:51:30 2005 From: ayaneva at aol.com (AyanEva) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:51:30 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128418 Tonks in post 128407: > I have never said that Harry or any of the WW or MW folks are > Christian. What I have said it that JKR is using Christian > symbolism in the books to teach what is basically a Christian > story. You can all buy me a butterbeer at the end of book 7, > when you say "ya, Tonks, you were right." Geoff in post 128392: > So, Hogwarts joins the rest of society in having Christmas trees, > presents, carols, Christmas dinner etc. Agreed, some of these > have come from non-Christian roots but are still there to jog the > collective memories of participants to remind them of what > Christians consider are the basic foundations of what life is all > about, to what we see as the real meaning of worship, love and > service to others. AyanEva: I'm answering to these two statements because they tie in to my argument. Tonks' statement first. But see, that's the point. It's not strictly a Christian story. That would assume that the basic tenants of the Christian faith are peculiar to Christianity; they're not. So, the HP stories can be read in a distinctly non-Christian fashion. You'll have to split that butterbeer with everyone else! ;-) And now Geoff's. But the point that I think some of us are trying to make (correct me if I'm wrong "some of us") is that we exclude the worship bit and concentrate on love, service to others, hope for a new beginning and rebirth, and hope for humanity. That's neccessarily, pagan in origin since the first religions had pantheons of gods, but it's not exclusive to paganism. Nor is it exclusive to Christianity. There's nothing requiring us to read it that way in HP, although we're free to do so. Lea in post 128309: > IMO, JKR included Christmas to represent the Christian celebration > of the birth of Jesus Christ, however, wouldn't one suspect that > Hogwarts, just like many other schools, would have children with a > variety of religious backgrounds? AyanEva: Good post, I can get on board with this. The last part of that sentence is the key. Just as students of other faiths would see the observance of Christmas and Easter differently, non-Christian readers see the observance of Christmas and Easter differently. It's just a matter of perspective, not that anyone person is right or wrong in their interpretation, but that there are other ways to read the books that are just as correct as a Christian-influenced reading. Annemehr in post 128403: > I think, in discussing a fictional character, it's the reader who > grants (or does not grant) redemption. AyanEva: I just wanted to say that this is a great answer to the question of redemption in HP. I'm more comfortable with this, I think. I hope JKR takes that path; leave it up to the reader. This is why I don't really like the idea of only one faith being present as an under current in HP; it's presumptious and not fair to other readers who don't share the same faith (or don't have any any particular faith; rather a moral code that's independent of faith) to be forced to accept someone elses terms of redemption. It could certainly happen, in which case I'd be quite disappointed, but I honestly don't think it will. So far, JKR hasn't addressed the question of redemption directly, as you pointed out in the case with Barty Crouch Sr, and with good cause. If she wanted everyone to look at the HP series from the same perspective, I really think that she would have provided a very clear answer of whether Barty Crouch Sr. was redeemed or not. Personally, I think Crouch Sr's attempt to correct a wrong past decision is enough for redemption, but that's just me. What matters most to me is the final balance; the person *tried*, whether they intended to or not, in one way or another to atone for their prior actions. A good deed, if sufficiently important (and what makes it "sufficient" is a judgement call), will balance out a bad deed. I'm not sure if it's in the actual text of the Koran, but I do know that that concept is kind of how the afterlife worked often worked in early Islamic culture. Good was balanced against bad, in a fashion. If you did something bad, but had good cause, there was a good chance that it would balance itself out. I hope the first part of this makes this HP-related! ---------------------------------------------------------------- And now for something completely different....*large animated foot squashes figure of man* Ginger in post 128366: > My definition of a Snape-like teacher is one who doesn't put > up with any disrespect, wandering attention, or general tomfoolery. > The students learn whether they want to or not. That is the > teacher's job, and if the kids don't make it easy, that's part of > the challenge. > > Example: If they didn't stay in their seats, I would plop them > down in their chairs and say, "The seat of your pants goes on the > seat of the chair. Your back goes on the back of the chair. Your > legs go by the legs of the chair. The parts of the chair are named > so that a complete nincompoop could understand how to use it. Do > you have any questions?" And they sat. Or else. AyanEva: I'm going for my MA in Art History and will probably go on to teach once I have my PhD. If I get college freshman, in particular, I've always imagined myself as a Snape/McGonagal like teacher. You might hate the class but I'll be darned if you don't learn something in it. I slept through my 1st survey course, when I bothered to show up, and couldn't believe that the proffessor tolerated that. No, in my class you'd show up and you'd learn. If you're not going to try, don't bother showing up; I'll be more than happy to flunk you. Snape's not out to be anyone's best friend; he's there to drill some education into the heads of students who would probably prefer to fool around and play. And I think he does that successfully. He's meaner than I would be, but I'm not above sarcasm to chastise someone into doing what they're supposed to be doing. Kids are coddled way too much, IMO. My parents didn't coddle me and if I have kids, I'm going to push them. In class, there would be no curve and there would be essays and pop quizzes. I think that what Snape knows is that the best way to learn is when you give students the basics and then make them flesh things out on their own. Research and having to teach your peers who are having trouble is a really good way to get information into your own head. When correcting the work of my peers, I'm not ashamed to admit that their papers looked as if I'd slit my wrist over them; I always used red ink. But I wanted them to really get it right and I was always so disappointed because my peers took it easy when reviewing my papers. Feedback is good; I don't care if my feelings get hurt in the process, my work will be that much better in the end. I think that's kind of Snape's philosophy. Talking in class? I'd make them come to the front and share the juicy story. Didn't do your homework and you don't have a good reason? No credit AND you get a question on the next quiz/test on the homework that you didn't do. That way, they'd still have to learn at least some of it to answer the question. Snape's meaner than he has to be, but I think I would learn a lot in his class. AyanEva From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 2 20:31:18 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 20:31:18 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting (was: Hermione and Snape). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128419 > > Pippin: > We have canon that Snape is a better teacher for Hermione, in > the sense of helping her reach her potential, than Lupin. Lupin > doesn't teach her to fight her boggart. a_svirn: An interesting point about this boggart of Hermione. Just WHY Lupin didn't let her tackle the boggart? It couldn't have been anything other than deliberate. And I don't buy the story she made up about her boggart being McGonagall telling her she's failed everything. For one thing, she couldn't have been THAT much worried about her results, for another ? a blood-curdling cry is not a likely reaction to such news. She must have encountered something really horrid out there and for some reasons felt compelled to conceal what it was. I wonder what? a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 2 20:47:53 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 20:47:53 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128420 AyanEva wrote: > >> AyanEva: I'm answering to these two statements because they tie in to > my argument. Tonks' statement first. But see, that's the point. It's > not strictly a Christian story. That would assume that the basic > tenants of the Christian faith are peculiar to Christianity; they're > not. So, the HP stories can be read in a distinctly non-Christian > fashion. You'll have to split that butterbeer with everyone else! ;-) > a_svirn: Although I don't think myself that HP is any kind of a "Christian story", I can't agree with your reasoning. A story doesn't have to be ABOUT Christians to be considered "Christian". Take the Holy Bible for instance: true, the Gospels tell us story about Christ, but not necessarily about Christians. And the rest of it concerns Jews and their affairs. a_svirn From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon May 2 21:03:50 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:03:50 -0000 Subject: Snape and Teaching, Does it Matter? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128421 I just want to suggest another twist on the discussions about teaching at Hogwarts. Interesting as all the debates might be, does anyone really think that teaching is particularly important to the HP saga? Frankly, I don't. When it comes down to it, I don't think JKR really cares very much whether the various characters she puts on the Hogwarts faculty are good teachers or not. They are there for other reasons, be it as villains or helpers or mysteries or comic relief. If I were to read any kind of "message" into her portrayal of Hogwarts, I guess it would be "Most schools are pretty messed up and most teachers are badly flawed, if not downright incompetent. Teaching positions are hard to fill with good candidates, and as often as not the school has to settle for whatever technically qualified person they can find -- if they can even find them. Learning takes place despite the teachers as often as because of them, if not more often." Personally, I wouldn't have any problem with that observation -- it certainly fits every school I've ever been affiliated with below the college level, and a lot of it fits colleges and graduate schools as well. But I doubt JKR is consciously sending any such message. Hogwarts is only a backdrop and the faculty are only supporting characters. Whether we are talking about Snape or Hagrid or McGonnagal or any of the others, the important thing to remember is that THEY JUST AIN'T ALL THAT IMPORTANT. Is Snape a good teacher in JKR's estimation? I doubt she's interested enough in him to make up her mind. He is in the story to serve a purpose and beyond that purpose I really don't think she cares very much about him. Is Lupin a good teacher in her mind? I suppose so, but she was building up sympathy for him with the readers and a level of trust with Harry. The teaching per se was rather beside the point. In the end a lot of these questions, as much as they exercise us, are, I suspect, of very little interest to JKR. They just don't touch very strongly on Harry or his story, which is what she is really interested in. All of which is to say that I suspect many of these questions will go totally unanswered. But then again, I guess people will have to have something to argue about after Book VII. Lupinlore From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 2 21:13:42 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:13:42 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "AyanEva" wrote: AyanEva: > I'm answering to these two statements because they tie in to > my argument. Tonks' statement first. But see, that's the point. It's > not strictly a Christian story. That would assume that the basic > tenants of the Christian faith are peculiar to Christianity; they're > not. So, the HP stories can be read in a distinctly non-Christian > fashion. You'll have to split that butterbeer with everyone else! ;- ) > And now Geoff's. But the point that I think some of us are trying to > make (correct me if I'm wrong "some of us") is that we exclude the > worship bit and concentrate on love, service to others, hope for a new > beginning and rebirth, and hope for humanity. That's neccessarily, > pagan in origin since the first religions had pantheons of gods, but > it's not exclusive to paganism. Nor is it exclusive to Christianity. > There's nothing requiring us to read it that way in HP, although we're > free to do so. Geoff: What I have been trying to underline is that I disagree with the train of thought which says that Christmas (and Easter) are pagan because the Church simply re-labelled the package for its own uses. As I pointed out in a recent post, the fact that, certainly, Christmas is contemporaneous with a pagan festival was because many early Christians in the Roman Empire were not free to do as they chose - ie slaves, maybe merchants etc. So they had perforce to hold their special celebrations at the same time as the public holidays. You can not call Christmas a pagan festival because its very name reveals what it is, worship held to celebrate the birth of Christ in human form; -mas is an old suffix used to indicate this, often related to a birth; another example is Michaelmas. Regarding the way in which we celebrate Christmas, the UK is a group of countries whose culture and history is based on Christian foundations. Although the number of real Christians is a relatively small percentage of the total population, the great majority of residents will say that they are Christian if asked, although this is very nominal. It is a standing joke in the country that if you are admitted to hospital and asked by hospital staff for your religion and you offer no specific answer, you are automatically listed as "C of E". So you will find that many British folk will listen to carols, send religious cards, hear the Christmas story read on TV - and even go to church for perhaps their one occasion of the year. And surprisingly, many of these good folk will become quite cross when there is an attempt by authorities to convert Christmas into a Winter Festival, send cards with "Season's greetings" and stop schools holding Nativity plays. It may well smack of nostalgia but don't underestimate the ability of the British to dig their heels in. I note AyanEva's comment that Harry Potter is not strictly a Christian story. It has been pointed out on a number of occasions in the past that JK Rowling, like Tolkien, is writing from a personal Christian background and the tenets of Christianity can be seen covertly in many places. Yes, HP and LOTR can be read in a non- Chriatian fashion by non-Christians but I believe that the authors have used their own belief as a springboard for their created worlds of fiction. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 2 21:24:18 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 21:24:18 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: a_svirn: > Although I don't think myself that HP is any kind of a "Christian > story", I can't agree with your reasoning. A story doesn't have to > be ABOUT Christians to be considered "Christian". Take the Holy > Bible for instance: true, the Gospels tell us story about Christ, > but not necessarily about Christians. And the rest of it concerns > Jews and their affairs. Geoff: Hopefully not appearing rude, I would suggest that your coment is a contradiction in terms. I think that for a story to be (overtly) Christian, it has got to include Christians. It can, of course, as in the case of HP and LOTR, be based on Christian foundations which would fit your pattern. Your Bible illustration is not quite accurate. The Gospels tell us the history of Christ's life in human form on Earth while the rest of the New Testament tells of his followers who took up the job of disseminating the teaching he had given to them to the rest of their world. Most disciples were, I agree, Jewish right at the beginning but Messianic Jews taking the new ideas to others. The section conerning "Jews and their affairs" is really the Old Testament. From jaanise at hello.lv Mon May 2 22:02:44 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JaanisE) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 01:02:44 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c54f62$ab264b10$0fc6f554@janis> No: HPFGUIDX 128425 -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Bannister Geoff: What I have been trying to underline is that I disagree with the train of thought which says that Christmas (and Easter) are pagan because the Church simply re-labelled the package for its own uses. -------------------------- Jaanis: Could we, please, NOT discuss religion here! I'm doing my best to stay out of this topic, as this really is not about HP anymore. Thanks! From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Mon May 2 22:33:41 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 22:33:41 -0000 Subject: Trelawney (was Can(n)ons and Teachers: McGonagall (was Hermione and Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128426 > Sophierom: > > What I find so interesting about Trelawney, McGonagall, and the issue > of performance is that in both instances, the teachers turn to acting > or performance as a way to begin the class. >From teaching for a while- I've seen that it's all a performance to get their attention and keep it- makes the topics interesting. Chys From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon May 2 22:48:27 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 22:48:27 -0000 Subject: Snape and Teaching, Does it Matter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128427 > Lupinlore wrote: > Interesting as all the debates might be, does > anyone really think that teaching is particularly important to the > HP saga? Neri: Well, the HP saga DOES describe lessons, homework, school books and tests more than any other book I can offhand think of (probably hundreds of pages throughout the series) and it DOES have an extensive gallery of teachers, each with a completely different teaching style, and Rowling WAS a teacher herself and she IS very good at describing teacher-student dynamics and her hero DOES get to be both a student and a teacher himself. But apart from that you might be quite right and teaching is not particularly important in the HP saga. Neri From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 22:57:39 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 22:57:39 -0000 Subject: Snape and Teaching, Does it Matter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128428 >>Lupinlore: >Interesting as all the debates might be, does anyone really think that teaching is particularly important to the HP saga? >Frankly, I don't. When it comes down to it, I don't think JKR really cares very much whether the various characters she puts on the Hogwarts faculty are good teachers or not.< Betsy: Interesting, except, no. No, no, no. JKR is *very* interested in the teachers and their abilities. Frankly, the entire Harry Potter series reads like an ode to teaching. Who's the most powerful wizard in the WW? The headmaster of a school. What does our intrepid hero do when faced with a life-threatening challenge? He goes to the school library. Who's the *only* Maurader to survive without going all eeevilll? Yup, the one who becomes a teacher. Where is the heart of the incredibly cool, totally tough, kicks- evil's-ass resistance group located? A school. (Yes, Gimmauld Place is the headquarters. But all the cool members hang at Hogwarts.) The Harry Potter series is totally up-teachers. A character's coolness is generally in ratio to either their teaching ability or their learning ability. Even the golden Mauraders weren't just pretty and athletic, they were the most intelligent boys of their year. (All of the "it" girls are pretty brainy too.) A huge signal that Umbridge (one of JKR's more insidious and creepy villian thus far) is "no good" is that she's not only a bad teacher, she's actually *against* learning. And even Fake!Moody, who wasn't all bad as a teacher, is found out to have cheated Harry through his last big test - a teaching no-no, I would assume. Quirrell was a weak teacher and Lockhart was pathetic. Frankly, being a bad teacher sends a pretty strong signal in JKR's world, and it's not a good one. (Hagrid gets points for trying to improve his skills, plus he's really enthusiastic about teaching, and I think JKR is making a point that teaching ain't easy. You have to learn how to become a good teacher. Trelawny is allowed to slide because she does have a useful skill. But she avoids her colleagues when she can, and it takes the powerful mojo of the sexy new DADA professor to bring her out of her tower and down to the faculty Christmas dinner (PoA) - poor Lupin. So she may well realize that her teaching abilities aren't up to snuff.) >>Lupinlore: >Hogwarts is only a backdrop and the faculty are only supporting characters.< Betsy: Erm, yeah. Like Middle Earth is merely the scenic route and the elves provide some eye-candy. If Harry wasn't a student, going through his seven years of schooling, if Dumbledore was the owner of the local coffee bar, the story would be *totally* different. (And I would actually bump Hogwarts up to a supporting character, myself. With its moving staircases and disappearing rooms it's had more action scenes than some of the human characters. ) >>Lupinlore: >Whether we are talking about Snape or Hagrid or McGonnagal or any of the others, the important thing to remember is that THEY JUST AIN'T ALL THAT IMPORTANT.< Betsy: But that doesn't make any sense at all. Why, if their teaching abilities are completely unimportant, would JKR bring it up? Why would there be three years of Harry and gang working to help Hagrid become a better teacher? Why show scenes of Umbridge visiting and rating the various classrooms? Why bring Trelawny's teaching abilities into question the moment her character is introduced? Teaching ability obviously means something. (Considering this is a "school-days" type tale, I'd say teaching ability is as important as observation skills in a who-dun-it.) As to the characters being unimportant in and of themselves, if that was the case they'd go the way of Hermione's little sister. Or at the very least, the way of Dean's wizard father. If they didn't bring something necessary to the tale, JKR would cut them. >>Lupinlore: >Is Snape a good teacher in JKR's estimation? I doubt she's interested enough in him to make up her mind. He is in the story to serve a purpose and beyond that purpose I really don't think she cares very much about him.< Betsy: Now you're just being cruel. JKR obviously cares a great deal about Snape. She's gone through a lot of trouble to introduce fascinating tid-bits about his background, she's given him some of the best lines in the books, she's been quite mysterious about the final role he'll play. Heck, Harry spends more time daydreaming about Snape than he *ever* did about Cho. (True, most of those daydreams end with Snape's gory death, but the point still stands.) No, I'm quite sure that Snape is one of JKR's favorite characters - she herself has said he's one of the most fun to write. (And by favorite I'm not saying JKR says Snape is good. Even villains are great fun to write, and writers, as their creators, are quite facinated by them. Not that I'm saying Snape's a villain!) >>Lupinlore: >Is Lupin a good teacher in her mind? I suppose so, but she was building up sympathy for him with the readers and a level of trust with Harry. The teaching per se was rather beside the point.< Betsy: No, the teaching *was* the point. Lupin is the teacher Harry most relates to. (McGonagall is good, but Harry is intimidated by her.) And interestingly enough, Harry relates to him pretty much only as a teacher. Lupin, strangely enough, doesn't talk to Harry too much about his father. IIRC it's only at the end of the book that Lupin reveals just how close he'd been to James and Lily. Sirius is Harry's link to his parents, but Lupin is his teacher (note that Harry never refers to Lupin as Remus). Lupin has a relationship with Harry completely outside his parents. What's interesting is that JKR might be setting up a situation where the more enduring relationship is that between teacher and student, rather than best friend of dead parents and son of dead best friends. >>Lupinlore: >In the end a lot of these questions, as much as they exercise us, are, I suspect, of very little interest to JKR. They just don't touch very strongly on Harry or his story, which is what she is really interested in.< Betsy: They're the meat and potatoes of the story. It was Harry becoming a teacher himself that heralded his growing maturity and readiness to take on the burden of being the prophecy boy. My gosh, one of the major themes of the story is the break in the school brought about by an argument over what children were worthy of being taught. An argument waged by four teachers who founded a school of learning unique to it's age. Four teachers known as the most powerful witches and wizards of the time. Betsy, who suddenly wishes she'd taken those ed. courses after all From bamf505 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 22:59:33 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 15:59:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050502225933.26237.qmail@web31512.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128429 > > Jaanis: > > Could we, please, NOT discuss religion here! I'm > doing my best to stay > out of this topic, as this really is not about HP > anymore. > > Thanks! bamf here: I hate to add a 'Me too!" post, but I'm going to. Arguing relion and its influence on a work of fiction is not going to get very far as religion is personal. As it is such, it is more likely to enrage people, especially since we have SEVERAL different religions here. bamf "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue May 3 00:00:40 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 00:00:40 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - a maverick view.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128430 > Geoff: > Being, like Winnie-the-Pooh, a bear of very little brain, would you > care to expand on that [below now after edit. V] for my benefit? Valky: Which part would you like me to elaborate on? > > Well here's an Irony for that question? By the prophecy, if it is > > not a contradiction of the facts (place my bet now that it > > reflects the facts more than anything else we know), then one of > > these people (Harry/Voldemort) is already dead... What if it's The > > boy who "Lived", Having the opinion that you are not quite 'so of little brain' Geoff I would say you probably have a pretty good idea what I am saying here and that this is not the part that you really wanted me to explain. But in case I am too deprived of sleep some 50 hours since I last woke up and am assuming irrationally, what I meant here is pretty much, I think, a simple agreement with what you had said before but with my own flavour added. In your original post you said that the prophecy seemed to contradict the facts, and that the words of the prophecy implied by 'neither can live while the other survives' that neither is alive and that one of these two is quite possibly dead. I expanded on this with the word Irony because I wondered if "The Boy who *Lived*" was an ironic misdirection by JKR placed in plain view at the beginning of the series. > > hey if misdirection is theoretically tradition employed here > > there's a really good chance that Harry IS Dead already.. > I think this is the part that most needed clarification so what I did here was: I then postulated, well in my mind at least and perhaps wasn't clear, based on another point made in this thread about the literary tradition of misdirection being one of JKR's watermarks that if JKR is notorious for misdirection and there is reason to believe that The Boy who *Lived* might be a misdirection, then the chance that it is a misdirection is fairly high. All told I get a respectable p-value that Harry is Dead on those terms. Or in other words, the statistics of the books we have imply that the hypotheses that Harry is dead should not be rejected yet because the model fits the surprises of previous books... ie From the start we are led to believe _he_ was "..." but in the end _he_ really wasn't "..." at all. > Also earlier was said: > Valky: > > Sorry Geoff but if JKR says someone's dead they're dead ;D > > remember. > Geoff: > Yes, but who has she said is dead? Valky replies: Ahhh I agree :D that is still a question at this time. I hope that my ramblings above have you understanding to a better degree why I decided to consider Harry as a strong candidate. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 3 00:01:43 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 00:01:43 -0000 Subject: back to Hermione, McGonagall and Snape was something else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128431 > Neri: > > SS/PS Ch. 8: > After making a lot of complicated notes, they were each given a match > and started trying to turn it into a needle. By the end of the lesson, > only Hermione Granger had made any difference to her match; Professor > McGonagall showed the class how it had gone all silver and pointy and > gave Hermione a rare smile. > > SS/PS Ch. 9: > Hermione wasn't going to give up that easily. She followed Ron through > the portrait hole, hissing at them like an angry goose. > "Don't you care about Gryffindor, do you only care about yourselves, I > don't want Slytherin to win the House Cup and you'll lose all the > points I got from Professor McGonagall for knowing about Switching > Spells." > > GoF, Ch. 15: > "We don't take O.W.L.s till fifth year!" said Dean Thomas indignantly. > "Maybe not, Thomas, but believe me, you need all the preparation you > can get! Miss Granger remains the only person in this class who has > managed to turn a hedgehog into a satisfactory pincushion. I might > remind you that your pincushion, Thomas, still curls up in fright if > anyone approaches it with a pin!" > Hermione, who had turned rather pink again, seemed to be trying not to > look too pleased with herself. snip Potioncat: Thank you Neri, for those quotes, which I know I should snip. I did snip one quote which did not refer to Miss Granger. I'm taking this back to the question, who is the better teacher for Hermione? This quote from PoA, chapter nine: >That is the second time you've spoken out of turn, Miss Granger," said Snape coolly. "Five more points from Gryffindor for being an insufferable know-it-all." ...It was a mark of how much the class loathed Snape that they were all glaring at him, because every one of them had called Hermione a know-it-all at least once, and Ron, who told Hermione she was a know- it-all at least twice a week...< Can you not see it? Snape,in his usual self sacrificing way has taken a bullet for Hermione. He'll never get any credit for it either, just the satisfaction that he has helped yet another intelligent, socially backward student on the way to acceptance by her peers. By cruelly calling her the same name her Housemates used, he made her one of them. See, although well meaning, McGonagall has further set Hermione as an object of derision among her classmates. She is the bar they are judged by, and she is very high. Who can hope to meet her tallent? And she certaninly enjoys the attention. But Snape in one move, has leveled the playing field and made it possible for Hermione to have a more enjoyable Hogwarts experience. Potioncat, (BTW does anyone know the counter spell for Tongue-in- Cheek?) Oh, was it Pippin who said Snape is most likely hoping Hermione's judgement catches up with her potionmaking skills before she kills someone?...I did mean to cut and paste that. I think that is a perfect description of Hermione's abilities! Potioncat, really signing off now. From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 3 00:12:42 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 00:12:42 -0000 Subject: Avoiding threads (was Re: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: <000001c54f62$ab264b10$0fc6f554@janis> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128433 > Jaanis wrote: > > Could we, please, NOT discuss religion here! I'm doing my best to stay > out of this topic, as this really is not about HP anymore. > > Thanks! Potioncat: As someone who knows what's it's like to have an annoying thread running rampant, I feel your pain. But in this case, there is a basis for Christianity in some form being revealed in HP, whether due to JKR's intent or by virtue of her culture. So I think it's as valid as discussing the influence of Roman mythology, or any other possible influences. My best advice, from personal experience with threads that drive me crazy, is to make some hot chocolate, and avoid the posts with the offending subject head. ;-) Potioncat From jaanise at hello.lv Tue May 3 01:27:30 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JaanisE) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 04:27:30 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Avoiding threads (was Re: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c54f7f$46821be0$0fc6f554@janis> No: HPFGUIDX 128434 -----Original Message----- From: potioncat But in this case, there is a basis for Christianity in some form being revealed in HP, whether due to JKR's intent or by virtue of her culture. So I think it's as valid as discussing the influence of Roman mythology, or any other possible influences. -------------------------- Jaanis: OK, sorry for making a second OT post... But I pointed to the particular question, I think, is *not* really connected to HP discussions, that is, how much Easter or Christmas is of one or another religion, which one has taken it from the other, what religion are you of if you do celebrate them or not etc. But, of course, I'll just try to avoid these threads (as I've been doing lately anyway). I just thought that I shouldn't be avoiding threads that shouldn't be in this list in the first place. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue May 3 01:37:35 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 01:37:35 -0000 Subject: Snape, Umbridge, and teaching. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128435 I wanted to address a common point that people seem to bring up on the Snape teaching post. People have been bringing up Umbridge's talk about how advanced his classes are. I would submit that this isn't the best piece of evidence for Snape's teaching skills. Umbridge is evil boot-licking villian who would probably consider her own class advanced based on the ministry's teaching standards and we know how great those are. Why is it that we should take her praise of Snape as gospel truth when practically everything else she does in the entire book is about hiding the truth? Why should we believe her? Another point I just thought about was perhaps she was buttering up Snape for her future plans. I'm not quite sure about the exact order of events in OOTP, but she seemed to use the Slytherins excessively as the cornerstone of her inquisition squad. It seems to me that the first step would be to get the head of their house on her side and appealing to the ego is always a good bet with someone. something to think about phoenixgod2000 From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue May 3 02:34:13 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 02:34:13 -0000 Subject: back to Hermione, McGonagall and Snape was something else In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128436 > Potioncat: > > > See, although well meaning, McGonagall has further set Hermione as an > object of derision among her classmates. She is the bar they are > judged by, and she is very high. Who can hope to meet her tallent? > And she certaninly enjoys the attention. But Snape in one move, has > leveled the playing field and made it possible for Hermione to have a > more enjoyable Hogwarts experience. > Neri: You know, my next project after the Harry's True Girlfriend Test should be the Automated Snape Apologizer. This shouldn't be difficult: if Snape doesn't encourage Hermione then McGonnagal doesn't either. If McGonnagal does encourage Hermione then she hurts her by doing so and Snape corrects this. An ASA for each member could make a lot of posting unnecessary and solve the HPfGU volume problem once and for all. > Potioncat, (BTW does anyone know the counter spell for Tongue-in- > Cheek?) > Neri: Hmmm. I did teach vertebrates anatomy once. Maybe "Lingua ex gnatho"? Nope, doesn't work. > Potioncat: > Oh, was it Pippin who said Snape is most likely hoping Hermione's > judgment catches up with her potionmaking skills before she kills > someone? > Neri: This assumes that Snape cares about someone's life, but who would be that someone? I can't think of anybody. Neri From marc at jadebox.com Mon May 2 22:41:26 2005 From: marc at jadebox.com (Marc Harry) Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 23:41:26 +0100 Subject: Christianity in HP In-Reply-To: <1115068138.38457.28900.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <200505022241.j42Mekpf008825@server1.rogersmithsoftware.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128437 Tonks in post 128407: > I have never said that Harry or any of the WW or MW folks are > Christian. What I have said it that JKR is using Christian > symbolism in the books to teach what is basically a Christian > story. Geoff in post 128392: > So, Hogwarts joins the rest of society in having Christmas trees, > presents, carols, Christmas dinner etc. Agreed, some of these > have come from non-Christian roots but are still there to jog the > collective memories of participants to remind them of what > Christians consider are the basic foundations of what life is all > about, to what we see as the real meaning of worship, love and > service to others. AyanEva: > Tonks' statement first. But see, that's the point. It's not > strictly a Christian story. That would assume that the basic > tenants of the Christian faith are peculiar to Christianity; > they're not. So, the HP stories can be read in a distinctly non- > Christian fashion. And now Geoff's. But the point that I > think some of us are trying to make (correct me if I'm wrong > "some of us") is that we exclude the worship bit and concentrate > on love, service to others, hope for a new beginning and rebirth, > and hope for humanity. That's necessarily pagan in origin since > the first religions had pantheons of gods, but it's not exclusive > to paganism. Nor is it exclusive to Christianity. There's nothing > requiring us to read it that way in HP, although we're free to do > so. Wow! Deep intake of breath... My 1st post! I've been here for a few months - totally swamped by the amount of emails (and I'm on digest!). I'm amazed people find so much to write about the HP universe - and I thought I was pretty obsessed by it! I take great interest in the 'is HP Christian literature/ is it not' debate because- as a very committed and (pretty) fundamentalist Christian I have faced quite a lot of opposition over the last few years for even allowing the books into my house!!! There are many, many Christians who think anything at all to do with witches and wizards is FUNDAMENTALLY Satanic. Therefore HP is evil. QED (in their opinion) Yes...that opinion, in many people, is undebatable. I have a man who has quite a grip on the Youth area of my church who is absolutely unshakeable on this matter. (OK - he's a loony and his mum runs the Sunday School - she's NOT a loony - but he still holds that opinion unshakeably). Now, I have to say that I agree 100% with his opinion (dichotomy alert!!!) I happen to believe that the HP universe has NOTHING whatsoever to do with witches and wizards (as we know them) in the human sphere...except as a way of attracting readers - very, VERY clever JKR!!! So, having absorbed more HP trivia in the last few months than I ever realised was there, I say ALL POWER TO JKR!!! It seems that a true, genuine and realistic view of the 'end times' as prophesied in the Holy Bible is definitely at the heart of the entire series. The HP series IS Christian at heart in the same way (if not even more closely) than CS Lewis and JRR Tolkein. Not sure about all the Rosicrucean (sp?) stuff but it made interesting reading as well. You guys and gals - please keep it up. I can't possibly read all of it (I often end up deleting 4 or 5 days worth at a time) but what I read is always interesting. Marc www.marcharry.com My recording of the PS fan-fic series: http://www.aaronmelzak.com/psychic_serpent/ From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue May 3 04:50:33 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 04:50:33 -0000 Subject: Avoiding threads (was Re: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: <000001c54f7f$46821be0$0fc6f554@janis> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JaanisE" wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > -------------------------- > > Jaanis: > > OK, sorry for making a second OT post... But I pointed to the particular > question, I think, is *not* really connected to HP discussions, that is, > how much Easter or Christmas is of one or another religion, which one > has taken it from the other, what religion are you of if you do > celebrate them or not etc. > > But, of course, I'll just try to avoid these threads (as I've been doing > lately anyway). I just thought that I shouldn't be avoiding threads that > shouldn't be in this list in the first place. We actually went through all this rather recently. If you really think a particular thread is not suitable for the list, you should take it up with the list elves and make your case. It's their job to adjudicate such things. However, they have been quite firm that it is not appropriate to use the list itself to argue that a particular topic/thread is unsuitable or out of bounds. Lupinlore From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 3 06:05:14 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 06:05:14 -0000 Subject: Snape and Teaching, Does it Matter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>Lupinlore: > > >Interesting as all the debates might be, does anyone really think > that teaching is particularly important to the HP saga? > >Frankly, I don't. When it comes down to it, I don't think JKR > really cares very much whether the various characters she puts on > the Hogwarts faculty are good teachers or not.< > > > Betsy: > Interesting, except, no. No, no, no. JKR is *very* interested in > the teachers and their abilities. Frankly, the entire Harry Potter > series reads like an ode to teaching. Tonks: I agree with both Neri and Betsy and would like to add to what they have said. JKR would naturally write was she knows most about as every writer is advised to do. But I think that there is more to it than that. The whole series is a teaching. And by presenting it in the format of a school and students, we the readers get into the student mode. We on a subconscious level are prepped to learn what one of the greatest teachers of them all is teaching us. JKR is our teacher. And as others have said a good teacher makes the subject fun. And she has. And what is the subject? I think you all already know my answer to that. ;-) We shall see. Tonks_op From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 3 06:10:02 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 06:10:02 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting (was: Hermione and Snape). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > > Pippin: > > We have canon that Snape is a better teacher for Hermione, in > > the sense of helping her reach her potential, than Lupin. Lupin > > doesn't teach her to fight her boggart. > > a_svirn: > > An interesting point about this boggart of Hermione. Just WHY Lupin > didn't let her tackle the boggart? It couldn't have been anything > other than deliberate. And I don't buy the story she made up about her > boggart being McGonagall telling her she's failed everything. For one > thing, she couldn't have been THAT much worried about her results, for > another ? a blood-curdling cry is not a likely reaction to such news. > She must have encountered something really horrid out there and for > some reasons felt compelled to conceal what it was. I wonder what? > > a_svirn I beg to disagree here! Don't forget that this was not a lesson, it was an exam. Part of the exam was to confront a boggart and in this part Hermione failed. No teacher would say "Never mind, Dear, I'll show you how and you can have another try" in an exam. Would you expect Snape to give Neville a second chance at a failed potion in an exam, or McGonagall to give Dean another shot at changing a hedgehog into a pin cushion? I also think a hysterical scream is a very typical *Hermione* reaction to the news that she had failed all her exams. I don't believe that McGonagall is the significant part of the boggart, it is the news that is significant. To Hermione, who values intellect and learning above any material thing, failure of exams would be a total catastrophe. IMHO! Karen From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 3 06:45:19 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 06:45:19 -0000 Subject: Avoiding threads (was Re: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: <000001c54f7f$46821be0$0fc6f554@janis> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "JaanisE" wrote: Jaanis: > OK, sorry for making a second OT post... But I pointed to the particular > question, I think, is *not* really connected to HP discussions, that is, > how much Easter or Christmas is of one or another religion, which one > has taken it from the other, what religion are you of if you do > celebrate them or not etc. Geoff: Some contributors may not believe me but I try to avoid getting too bogged down on these issues. However, there are times when I feel it necessary to defend my position and that of fellow Christians on the group. The current threads largely arose out of a discussion about the celebration of Christmas. When some group members begin to marginalise Christmas and Easter and even suggest that they are really pagan festivals, I feel there is a need to remind people that JKR does come from a Christian background and that these two dates are when we rememeber the two central core events of the Christian faith. We have had times in the past when this sort of debate has dominated the group threads for a short period. There was a period a year or so ago when Christianity came under heavy attack from non-Christians of varying persuasions on the group and we have also had a string of lengthy posts at times on Rosicrucian/Way of Liberation apologetics. I try to bring my posts on topic - I realise that there are times when I don't but, like another poster, I have had to discuss Harry Potter with members of my home Baptist church who are convinced that the books are a route to real witchcraft and convince them why I feel they are valuable, important and entertaining. And, as I do on a number of topics, group members can always choose to skip a thread. From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Tue May 3 07:03:24 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 07:03:24 -0000 Subject: Oh yeah, its the Dementor-Veiled-Gateway-Connection-Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128442 [This post originally found its way (somehow?) onto the OT chat-list- thing. So, for the happy few of us who haven't read it yet, here it is again, where it originally was intended to be] Has anyone considered whether the origin of the dementors might not be found in the workings of the ancient, veiled gateway? It seems to me that the gateway separates the soul from the body of the subject, the soul passing on to wherever it is souls go to once a person dies(or, alternatively, becoming ensnared "within" the gateway?). The body, however, separated from its soul, continues to "live on" as the undead. Very similar, it can be seen, to the concept of the dementors. The gateway was described as very old; perhaps this *is* how the very first dementors came to inhabit the earth? The question is, who created the archway, and was this its original, fiendish, intention? If so, how would this benefit the architect? Indeed, having accepted this connection, what other implications can we draw from it, relevant to the plot of HP? John. From elfundeb at gmail.com Tue May 3 10:52:41 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 10:52:41 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Discussing Religion on the List Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128443 Greetings from Hexquarters! Noticing a bit of a ruckus on the list about the boundaries of religious discussion, the elves thought this might be a good time to remind everyone of what's on topic and what's not: Discussion of religion is permitted on this list if the poster is expressly relating the discussion to the HP books. So, it's ok to discuss the extent to which you believe the books bear the stamp of JKR's religious beliefs, but when the topic shifts to whether or not Easter has a pagan origin, it's time to take the discussion to HPFGU- OTChatter. (Even if your post is still somewhat on-topic, if you think it's starting to stray, you can offer to take it there yourself.) This is a very diverse group, encompassing a wide range of beliefs. We know that some of you would rather that religion not be mentioned at all. To others the religious context is very important. Please don't complain on-list about a topic; instead, drop a note to the elves at hpforgrownups-owner at yahoogroups.com Finally, to borrow some excellent advice from a listmember, if you are annoyed by a thread, regardless of the source of annoyance, "make some hot chocolate, and avoid the posts with the offending subject head." Debbie aka Speedy Elf for the List Elves From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 3 12:40:52 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:40:52 -0000 Subject: Snape, Umbridge, and teaching.& back to Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128444 --In post # 128435 Phoenixgod wrote: > > Umbridge is evil boot-licking villian who would probably consider her > own class advanced based on the ministry's teaching standards and we > know how great those are. Why is it that we should take her praise > of Snape as gospel truth when practically everything else she does in > the entire book is about hiding the truth? Why should we believe her? Potioncat: It's very hard to decided whom to believe and when to believe him/her. Many characters are honest, but not always correct. Others lie a great deal, but not always. This event happens in OoP chapter 17. Snape sneers as he introduces Umbridge. Harry wonders which teacher he'd rather have triumph over the other. Granted, Snape-apoligists often dicount Harry's interpretation of events but even Harry sees these two as adversaries. The first thing she says is, "Well the class seems fairly advanced for their level," she said briskly to Snape's back. "Though I would question whether it is advisable to teach them a potion like the Strengthening Solution. I think the Ministry would prefer it if that was removed from the syllabus." She goes on to ask how long he's been teaching and why he hasn't been granted his frequent request for the DADA position. She isnt' buttering him up at all. Umbridge doesn't consider it a compliment to say the class is advanced. And of course, it's not certain what she means. Would the Ministry really prefer that? Or is she speaking for herself (and possibly Fudge?) Perhaps it would be preferred for only certain students to instructed in the advanced material? Is the class advanced based on her opinion or based on the minimum level expected by the OWLs? Even if the compliment was intended to be that, she takes it away with everything else she says. Given Umbridge's nature, I think she is being honest and correct that the Potions class is being taught at a higher level than required. The other quote which is often used is Snape's own comment that his classes have a high pass rate. Strictly speaking we don't know if it is true. Nor do we know ...compared to what? Compared to Ministry expectations? To the previous Potions Master? Compared to the pass rate of other courses offered at Hogwarts? Or does that even matter. I think it's interesting that Snape's OWL speach and McGonagall's OWL speech are saying the same thing: Everyone in this class can pass their OWL exam. Both teachers single out Neville. McGonagall leaves him feeling encouraged, Snape leaves him feeling fearful. But based on the context, based on the overall message being given, I believe both Snape and McGonagall are being correct and honest in that everyone in their classes have the abiltiy to pass the OWLs. In Post 128436 Neri wrote: Neri: You know, my next project after the Harry's True Girlfriend Test should be the Automated Snape Apologizer. This shouldn't be difficult: if Snape doesn't encourage Hermione then McGonnagal doesn't either. If McGonnagal does encourage Hermione then she hurts her by doing so and Snape corrects this. An ASA for each member could make a lot of posting unnecessary and solve the HPfGU volume problem once and for all. Potioncat: Would you? Could you? Does that mean we could just write: ASA #4 or ASA #97 in our replies to attacks on the dear Potion Master? Think of the time it will save us! Can you make it quickly! I'm sure after July we Snape Apologists will need all the time saving devices we can get! We'll have so much more to apologize for! Potioncat who combined two different threads in this post, but thinks it's OK anyway. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue May 3 12:45:21 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 12:45:21 -0000 Subject: Oh yeah, its the Dementor-Veiled-Gateway-Connection-Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Someone" wrote: > Has anyone considered whether the origin of the dementors might not be > found in the workings of the ancient, veiled gateway? It seems to me > that the gateway separates the soul from the body of the subject, the > soul passing on to wherever it is souls go to once a person dies (or, > alternatively, becoming ensnared "within" the gateway?). The body, > however, separated from its soul, continues to "live on" as the > undead. Very similar, it can be seen, to the concept of the dementors. > The gateway was described as very old; perhaps this *is* how the very > first dementors came to inhabit the earth? GEO: I do recall that she stated that they were beings that grew from decay like fungus so I for one hardly think the gateway which seems to be a path to the afterlife has anything to do with their creation. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000- canadianpress-moore.htm From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Tue May 3 13:12:00 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 13:12:00 -0000 Subject: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128446 I have just noticed a little piece of information on Leaky Cauldron.org that has sparked an idea. The snippet below was left by JK behind the door on her website and comes from half blood prince. "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." My theory is that this description is of Nicholas Flamel! The main reason I have for supecting this is that 1)it seems to be someone we haven't met before who looks the sort of age we might expect Nicholas to look (my weakest reason) 2)Nicholas was said to be "have left himself enought ime to get his affairs in order" (paraphrase)in book 1, by Dumbledore. I always thought that D. seemed to have some kind of greater meaning, like there was an unfulfilled aim, or a last contribution to make. It would make sense if this had to do with passing on something that could help against Voldemort. Perhaps Flamel had something to do with the last war, or Grindelwald (sp?)mentioned in the trading cards. 3)JK said that there are parts of book 6 that nearly went into book 2's opening chapters. It seems logical that she might have been going to tell us more about Flamel through a character (perhaps Dumbledore explaining to Harry) right after he had been central to the plot. 4)A reason external to the narrative itself - there doesn't seem much point JK "throwing us a bone" if the character is an entirely new one that not even the most subtle analysis of the book will enable one to pick up on in advance. For example, there would have been no way of attributing any of Luna Lovegood's scenes to her before book 5 had been published, had they been leaked to us. I think JK tries to play games with the fans(in a nice way)to reward good detective skills and sharp-eyed reading. Not saying I'm right, but it's a thought that I find interesting and wanted to share! Does anyone else have a view? Snapesangel x From sophierom at yahoo.com Tue May 3 13:28:21 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 13:28:21 -0000 Subject: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128448 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lindseyharrisst" wrote: > I have just noticed a little piece of information on Leaky > Cauldron.org that has sparked an idea. The snippet below was left by > JK behind the door on her website and comes from half blood prince. > > "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." > > > My theory is that this description is of Nicholas Flamel! Sophierom: While this is a good idea in theory, JKR unforutnately shoots it down with her statement on Flamel: "Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in `Philosopher's Stone' that his old friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to fall into the wrong hands." This can be found on the "Rumours" section of her web page. Here's the web address: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=32 All the best, Sophie From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Tue May 3 13:32:55 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 13:32:55 -0000 Subject: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128449 Damn! And it was such a nheat theory!lol. Snapesangel x --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lindseyharrisst" > wrote: > > I have just noticed a little piece of information on Leaky > > Cauldron.org that has sparked an idea. The snippet below was left by > > JK behind the door on her website and comes from half blood prince. > > > > "He looked rather like an old lion. There were streaks of grey in > > his mane of tawny hair and his bushy eyebrows; he had keen yellowish > > eyes behind a pair of wire-rimmed spectacles and a certain rangy, > > loping grace even though he walked with a slight limp." > > > > > > My theory is that this description is of Nicholas Flamel! > > > Sophierom: > > While this is a good idea in theory, JKR unforutnately shoots it down with her > statement on Flamel: > > "Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in `Philosopher's Stone' that his old > friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to fall into the wrong > hands." > > This can be found on the "Rumours" section of her web page. Here's the web > address: > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=32 > > All the best, > Sophie From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue May 3 14:03:01 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 14:03:01 -0000 Subject: Transcendant Wisdom? (was Re: Snape and Teaching, Does it Matter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128450 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > > Tonks: > I agree with both Neri and Betsy and would like to add to what they > have said. JKR would naturally write was she knows most about as > every writer is advised to do. But I think that there is more to it > than that. The whole series is a teaching. Oh dear. IMO, and it is of course just my opinion, that is exalting the series well beyond what it deserves. It also flies directly in the face of JKR's own statement that she really has no particular "moral lesson" or "great theme" in mind. The series is interesting, yes. Enjoyable most of the time. Well written most of the time. Possessed of some egregious flaws. And most certainly, IMO, NOT a place to look for transcendent wisdom - despite Dumbledore's habit of making vacuous statements and acting in puzzling (and often very questionable) ways. And by presenting it in > the format of a school and students, we the readers get into the > student mode. We on a subconscious level are prepped to learn what > one of the greatest teachers of them all is teaching us. One of the GREATEST TEACHERS OF THEM ALL? Err, ah, uhm, yeah, ahem. Sorry, but IMO that is also elevating JKR to a position well beyond what she deserves. A very good writer she most certainly is, most of the time anyway. But Shakespeare has nothing to worry about, and she wouldn't have cut any great shakes on the Committee of Translators that translated the King James Version of the Bible. Much less is she in the company of the people who actually wrote the contents of the Bible, or the Talmud, or the Koran, or the Upanishads, or the Gitas, or the Tao Te Ching, or the Sutras. I suspect (and I may be wrong but I'd bet a good deal of money that I'm not) that in a hundred years she will be remembered as an important writer of a certain kind of fiction, probably in the same rank as L. Frank Baum and T.H. White. If some of the Christian themes pan out, she may also be compared with someone like Dorothy Sayers or G.K. Chesterton. However, I doubt she will be seen in the same rank as Tolkien or C.S. Lewis, and I am pretty certain that no one is going to be talking about St. Jo the Great. Oh, and although I appreciate depth psychology as much as the next person, I seriously doubt JKR is preparing anybody's subconscious for anything. She is telling a tale that she finds interesting. Sometimes a given reader will also find it interesting, sometimes they will find it poorly told. Her writing is usually very good, sometimes problematic, often marked by lapses in logic and consistency, and sometimes needs about three more rewrites to get across what she's trying to sell. Preparing someone's subconscious? Uhm, no. JKR is our > teacher. Speak for yourself, please. I find JKR a very good example of interesting, lucid prose and overall world-building. But she is hardly the person to look to for lessons in tight plotting and logic of detail, nor is she always very good at consistent and believable characterization or adept shifts of tone. As for moral lessons, she is seemingly a nice person and probably worth listening to as one among many (although there are a lot of people in my life I would listen to much sooner for a variety of reasons). But a teacher of wisdom? No. And as others have said a good teacher makes the subject > fun. And she has. And what is the subject? I think you all > already know my answer to that. ;-) We shall see. Yes, we will see. And there will probably be very little agreement about any given outcome. An ending that will satisfy some will anger others. If Harry ends up sacrificing himself out of some greater love, some will find it moving. That is totally their right. Others, myself included, will find it so ham-fisted and silly as to inspire guffaws of laughter. That is our right. And neither one of us will be incorrect. Lupinlore From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 3 14:40:56 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 14:40:56 -0000 Subject: Transcendant Wisdom? (was Re: Snape and Teaching, Does it Matter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: It also flies directly in > the face of JKR's own statement that she really has no > particular "moral lesson" or "great theme" in mind. Tonks: Please tell me where to find that information. When did she say that?? Do you have a link to an interview? Tonks_op From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue May 3 15:17:25 2005 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 15:17:25 -0000 Subject: Transcendant Wisdom? (was Re: Snape and Teaching, Does it Matter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" > wrote: > It also flies directly in > > the face of JKR's own statement that she really has no > > particular "moral lesson" or "great theme" in mind. > > > Tonks: > Please tell me where to find that information. When did she say that?? > Do you have a link to an interview? > > Tonks_op Annemehr: Here's one example of what she really did say (from the World Book Day chat of March '04): Majeed from Bristol Grammar School - Bristol: "To what extent did you conceive Harry Potter as a moral tale?" ****SCHOOLS COMPETITION WINNER**** JK Rowling replies -> "I did not conceive it as a moral tale, the morality sprang naturally out of the story, a subtle but important difference. I think any book that sets out to teach or preach is likely to be hard going at times (though I can think of a couple of exceptions)." >From the Diane Rehm Show of Dec. '99 (sparked by a question by a listener about whether characters ought to be dying): "[Literature is] a fabulous way to explore those things. Now, I don't set out thinking, "this is what they're going to learn in this book", ever. I have a real horror of preaching to anyone, or of trying to make, you know, enormous points. You know, I'm not driven by the need to "teach" children anything, although those things do come up naturally in the stories, which I think is quite moral. Because it's a battle between good and evil. But I do think, that to pretend to children that life is sanitized and easy, when they already know - they don't need me to tell them - that life can be very difficult. If it hasn't happened in their own family, one of their friends' fathers will be... dying. Or some - you know, they're in contact with this from a very early age. And it's not a bad idea that they meet this in literature. It's not a bad idea that they can see a character who is - I mean, Harry is a human boy, he makes mistakes, but I think he came as a very noble character, he's a brave character and he strives to do the right thing. And to see a fictional character dealing with those sort of things, I think can be very very helpful." For the record, I think of Jo as a wonderful teacher, but I don't feel the need to rank her place on some all-time list of teacherdom. Annemehr From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 3 15:19:39 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 15:19:39 -0000 Subject: Transcendant Wisdom? (was Re: Snape and Teaching, Does it Matter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128453 Lupinlore: > > It also flies directly in the face of JKR's own statement that > > she really has no particular "moral lesson" or "great theme" in > > mind. Tonks: > Please tell me where to find that information. When did she say > that?? Do you have a link to an interview? SSSusan: Here are a couple of quotes which speak to this topic. Q: What do you think of the people who want to ban your books? A: I think they are... uh.. what's a good word? Misguided. I think these are very moral books. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but not to impose their views on others! [AOL chat, Oct. 2000] ********************************** Now, I don't set out thinking, "this is what they're going to learn in this book", ever. I have a real horror of preaching to anyone, or of trying to make, you know, enormous points. You know, I'm not driven by the need to "teach" children anything, although those things do come up naturally in the stories, which I think is quite moral. Because it's a battle between good and evil. [Diane Rehm Show, 1999] ************************************ Siriusly Snapey Susan From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Tue May 3 15:42:36 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 11:42:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet Message-ID: <1f6.9043d0f.2fa8f5ec@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128454 Kaylee Tonks-Lupin here! Sophierom said: Sophierom: While this is a good idea in theory, JKR unforutnately shoots it down with her statement on Flamel: "Flamel has now died; Dumbledore explained in `Philosopher's Stone' that his old friend was going to choose death rather than allow his stone to fall into the wrong hands." This can be found on the "Rumours" section of her web page. Here's the web address: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/rumours_view.cfm?id=32 All the best, Sophie Kaylee now: Wait, not necessarily. Aren't Dumbledore and Harry looking into a Pensieve on the cover of HBP? Perhaps this "old lion" is in a memory? It's just a thought. Just my two Knuts, Kaylee Lily Andromeda Tonks-Lupin "It unscrews the other way." -Minerva McGonagall, OOTP (chapter and page escape me. Help me, please?) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 3 19:34:20 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 19:34:20 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > a_svirn: > > > Although I don't think myself that HP is any kind of a "Christian > > story", I can't agree with your reasoning. A story doesn't have to > > be ABOUT Christians to be considered "Christian". Take the Holy > > Bible for instance: true, the Gospels tell us story about Christ, > > but not necessarily about Christians. And the rest of it concerns > > Jews and their affairs. > > Geoff: > Hopefully not appearing rude, I would suggest that your coment is a > contradiction in terms. > > I think that for a story to be (overtly) Christian, it has got to > include Christians. It can, of course, as in the case of HP and LOTR, > be based on Christian foundations which would fit your pattern. > > Your Bible illustration is not quite accurate. The Gospels tell us > the history of Christ's life in human form on Earth while the rest of > the New Testament tells of his followers who took up the job of > disseminating the teaching he had given to them to the rest of their > world. Most disciples were, I agree, Jewish right at the beginning > but Messianic Jews taking the new ideas to others. > > The section conerning "Jews and their affairs" is really the Old > Testament. Since we are speaking of contradictions here, let's disentangle your statement. 1)Concerning the Gospels. a. Your major premise: A Christian story has got to include Christians. b. Your minor premise: "The Gospels tell us the history of Christ's life in human form on Earth" c. Then your conclusion must be: the Gospels are NOT a Christian story. (Unless you claim that Christ was Christian? You seem to agree that this is not the case). 2) Concerning the rest of the New Testament. Since the very word "Christian" is used only three times there, out of which once by pagans (Acts 11:26), and only once actually by a disciple (I Peter 4:16), and not exactly in a sense we are using it now: "Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed ...", I'd say that claiming that the rest of the New Testament is about Christians is stretching the point a bit too far. 3) Concerning the "Jews and their affairs". So far that I am aware The Old Testament is a part of the Holy Bible and the Bible is THE Christian Book par excellence. Am I wrong? If so, I beg your pardon. a_svirn From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue May 3 19:37:25 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] back to Hermione, McGonagall and Snape was something else In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050503193726.64231.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128456 --- potioncat wrote: > This quote from PoA, chapter nine: >That is the second time you've spoken out of turn, Miss Granger," > said Snape coolly. "Five more points from Gryffindor for being an > insufferable know-it-all." > ...It was a mark of how much the class loathed Snape that they were > all glaring at him, because every one of them had called Hermione a > know-it-all at least once, and Ron, who told Hermione she was a > know-it-all at least twice a week...< > > > Can you not see it? Snape,in his usual self sacrificing way has > taken a bullet for Hermione. He'll never get any credit for it > either, just the satisfaction that he has helped yet another > intelligent, socially backward student on the way to acceptance by > her peers. By cruelly calling her the same name her Housemates > used, he made her one of them. > > See, although well meaning, McGonagall has further set Hermione as > an object of derision among her classmates. She is the bar they are > judged by, and she is very high. Who can hope to meet her tallent? > And she certaninly enjoys the attention. But Snape in one move, has > leveled the playing field and made it possible for Hermione to have > a more enjoyable Hogwarts experience. > > Potioncat, (BTW does anyone know the counter spell for Tongue-in- > Cheek?) Well....actually that's a pretty fair assessment of what happened, though, isn't it? Granted Snape didn't do it on purpose but it has the same result. Her annoying habit of immediately blurting out the answers as soon as the question is asked - sometimes without the trouble of raising her hand - and other teachers responding with "Excellent! Five points to Gryffindor" was well on the way to making her the new Percy as far as the other kids are concerned. But now the kids can transfer that dislike to Snape and don't have to confront the annoying reality that they're actually jealous of Hermione. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue May 3 19:40:24 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape, Umbridge, and teaching. In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050503194025.31884.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128457 --- phoenixgod2000 wrote: > Another point I just thought about was perhaps she was buttering up > Snape for her future plans. I'm not quite sure about the exact > order > of events in OOTP, but she seemed to use the Slytherins excessively > as the cornerstone of her inquisition squad. It seems to me that > the > first step would be to get the head of their house on her side and > appealing to the ego is always a good bet with someone. > something to think about I doubt it. She follows up immediately with her question about his applying for the DADA job every year and not getting it, and then tells him that the Ministry is interested in every teacher's background. Remember that about three months earlier Snape shoved his Dark Mark-ed forearm under Cornelius Fudge's nose and we can see what she's not so subtley hinting at. She's not buttering him up - in this scene. She's flexing her claws. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 3 19:46:19 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 19:46:19 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting (was: Hermione and Snape). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > > > > > Pippin: > > > We have canon that Snape is a better teacher for Hermione, in > > > the sense of helping her reach her potential, than Lupin. Lupin > > > doesn't teach her to fight her boggart. > > > > a_svirn: > > > > An interesting point about this boggart of Hermione. Just WHY > Lupin > > didn't let her tackle the boggart? It couldn't have been anything > > other than deliberate. And I don't buy the story she made up about > her > > boggart being McGonagall telling her she's failed everything. For > one > > thing, she couldn't have been THAT much worried about her results, > for > > another ? a blood-curdling cry is not a likely reaction to such > news. > > She must have encountered something really horrid out there and > for > > some reasons felt compelled to conceal what it was. I wonder what? > > > > a_svirn > > I beg to disagree here! > > Don't forget that this was not a lesson, it was an exam. Part of > the exam was to confront a boggart and in this part Hermione > failed. No teacher would say "Never mind, Dear, I'll show you how > and you can have another try" in an exam. Would you expect Snape to > give Neville a second chance at a failed potion in an exam, or > McGonagall to give Dean another shot at changing a hedgehog into a > pin cushion? > > I also think a hysterical scream is a very typical *Hermione* > reaction to the news that she had failed all her exams. I don't > believe that McGonagall is the significant part of the boggart, it > is the news that is significant. To Hermione, who values intellect > and learning above any material thing, failure of exams would be a > total catastrophe. > > IMHO! > > Karen Sorry, I obviously wasn't quite coherent. I was speaking about the two episodes. One was the lesson, when Lupin didn't allow Hermione to have a go at the boggart. Harry and Hermione were the only two pupils who didn't fight the boggart in the classroom, and since with Harry it was deliberate decision on Lupin part it seems likely that with Hermione it was also the case. The second episode was the exam. I don't think that Hermione's boggart took the form she claimed for the reasons I already stated. You said: "I don't believe that McGonagall is the significant part of the boggart, it is the news that is significant". I never claimed it to be otherwise. I further agree that a total failure would be a catastrophe for Hermione. But why, why she would be afraid of it that much? She seems to be quite a confident young lady. She might have been especially nervous in her third year, but for it to be her worst fear? Not likely. Besides, as I mentioned already, why would she scream upon being told that she failed? It is totally unrealistic reaction. Tears ? yes, fainting quite probably, but screaming? I don't think so a_svirn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 3 20:35:40 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 20:35:40 -0000 Subject: Snape- Universal Teacher - Universal Story Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128459 I've been reading the many posts on Snape and whether he is an effective teacher or not, and something occurred to me. I appeal to our resident authority, Shaun, to confirm or deny my statement, but doesn't Professor Snape make an appearance in every single British School Boy story ever written? Of course, he appears under many different names, but isn't it pretty much standard fare for there to be one very unpleasant teacher in the school to act as the Hero's foil, nemisis, and antagonist? I honestly think that relative to the school aspect of the story, Snape is there simply because every protagonist needs an antagonsit. Among the students, Draco fills that role, among the teachers Snape fills that role, in the greater world, Voldemort fills that role. Don't get me wrong, in the greater arc of the story, Snape has a greater more complex role to play, but limiting our perspective to the school day itself, Snape is there simply to make Harry stuggle and to give him something to stuggle against. A protagonist is no protagonist at all if he is not struggling to overcome overwhelming counter forces. As a side note: Love his or hate him, I would speculate that Snape is the single most discussed character in this group. I would even venture the probablility that Snape is more oft discussed that Harry. He is a complex mutlifacited character whose backstory is both very interesting and mostly missing. In addition, there is a huge amount of ambiguity attached to Snape, we suspect he might be good, but he is so umpleasant it's hard to tell. We know he has done dark, dangerous and illegal things, now we must wonder, will he do them again, and if he does, will if be forced by circumstance, or by a genuine desire? So many question, and so few answers. As a side-side note, I often wonder if two more books is really enough to resolve all the unanswered questions we have? Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 3 20:48:28 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 20:48:28 -0000 Subject: Snape- Universal Teacher - Universal Story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128460 Steve wrote: ... but doesn't Professor Snape make an appearance in every > single British School Boy story ever written? Of course, he appears > under many different names, but isn't it pretty much standard fare for > there to be one very unpleasant teacher in the school to act as the > Hero's foil, nemisis, and antagonist? He actually makes an appearance under this very name "Mr. Snape" in Heyer's "The Foundling" ? a very unpleasant tutor, supervising the education of a very likable boy. A "bore", a "flogger", and altogether "joyless personage" whom no one "has any difficulty in disliking". a_svirn From sophierom at yahoo.com Tue May 3 20:58:50 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 20:58:50 -0000 Subject: Snape- Universal Teacher - Universal Story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128461 "Steve" wrote: > I honestly think that relative to the school aspect of the story, > Snape is there simply because every protagonist needs an antagonsit. > Among the students, Draco fills that role, among the teachers Snape > fills that role, in the greater world, Voldemort fills that role. >Don't get me wrong, in the greater arc of the story, Snape has a > greater more complex role to play, but limiting our perspective to >the school day itself, Snape is there simply to make Harry stuggle >and to give him something to stuggle against. Sophierom: This is an interesting parallel you've set up here. I think this works in the first four books. I wonder, if in OotP, JKR didn't disturb this structure a bit by inserting Umbridge as the antagonist among the teachers. Perhaps with Occlumency and the Pensieve scene, Snape moved into a different (though equally uncomfortable and antagonistic) role. Although ever since PS, we've known that Snape held a grudge of some kind against Harry's father, it's only in OotP that we really understand the nature of that grudge. I don't know what to call this new role (perhaps he's the embodiment of Harry's struggle to learn that there is no easy way to define "good" and "bad"). But I do wonder, especially as we learn more about Snape's past, if he won't become less of an antagonist in the classroom. Ah, what am I talking about? He'll probably give Harry a hard time until the last page (or, should he die, his last breath). Steve again: > So many question, and so few answers. As a side-side note, I often > wonder if two more books is really enough to resolve all the > unanswered questions we have? Sophierom: Oh, definitely not! I do hope the last two books will answer the most important questions (though I'm not wise enough to say what those are). But I imagine we'll continue to have unanswered questions about Snape when the series ends (even if he dies before the conclusion). If Rowling does somehow manage to answer all of our questions, I know there will be many fanfiction readers and writers out there who won't know what to do with themselves! :-D From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 3 21:05:21 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 21:05:21 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128462 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: a_svirn: > Since we are speaking of contradictions here, let's disentangle your > statement. > > 1)Concerning the Gospels. > > a. Your major premise: A Christian story has got to include > Christians. > b. Your minor premise: "The Gospels tell us > the history of Christ's life in human form on Earth" > c. Then your conclusion must be: the Gospels are NOT a Christian > story. (Unless you claim that Christ was Christian? You seem to > agree that this is not the case). Geoff: Oh dear. The history of Christ's life in human form. In case you haven't noticed it also covers many of his relationships with humans including those who became his followers, i.e. the early Christians, for example Peter and John.... a_svirn: > 2) Concerning the rest of the New Testament. Since the very > word "Christian" is used only three times there, out of which once > by pagans (Acts 11:26), and only once actually by a disciple (I > Peter 4:16), and not exactly in a sense we are using it now: "Yet if > any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed ...", I'd say > that claiming that the rest of the New Testament is about Christians > is stretching the point a bit too far. Geoff: Now you are nitpicking. One of your quoted references tells us where the followers of Jesus were first called Christians. So I think that can cover the doings of the early church from that point forward at least. a_svirn: > 3) Concerning the "Jews and their affairs". So far that I am aware > The Old Testament is a part of the Holy Bible and the Bible is THE > Christian Book par excellence. Am I wrong? If so, I beg your pardon. Geoff: You were the one who remarked rather disparagingly "and the rest of it concerns the Jews and their affairs" as if this were an afterthought. The Old Testament contains the Scriptures which are shared by both Jews and Christians alike. However, it is the New Testament which is probably the most important for Christians. The Old Testament shows us God's outworking through the Jews and the prophets and the promise he gave of a Saviour and hence sets the scene. But it is the teaching and example given by Jesus in the New Testament which is of the greatest value to believers because the very core of faith stems from this guidance. I think, in deference to our elves, I must stop and say no more here. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 3 21:09:12 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 21:09:12 -0000 Subject: Transcendant Wisdom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > Annemehr: > Here's one example ... World Book Day chat of March '04): > > Majeed ... - Bristol: "To what extent did you conceive Harry Potter > as a moral tale?" > ****SCHOOLS COMPETITION WINNER**** > JK Rowling replies -> "I did not conceive it as a moral tale, the > morality sprang naturally out of the story, a subtle but important > difference. ..." > > > From the Diane Rehm Show of Dec. '99 ... > > "[Literature is] a fabulous way to explore those things. ... I'm not > driven by the need to "teach" children anything, although those > things do come up naturally in the stories, which I think is quite > moral. ... But I do think, that to pretend to children that life is > sanitized and easy, when they already know - ... - that life can be > very difficult. ... Harry is a human boy, he makes mistakes, ... And > to see a fictional character dealing with those sort of things, I > think can be very very helpful." > > > For the record, I think of Jo as a wonderful teacher, ... > > Annemehr bboyminn: I'm reminded of the old axiom that the lessons we learn best in life are the lessons we teach ourselves. Your mother says 'don't touch the stove, you'll burn yourself', so what do we do, we touch the stove, and we teach ourselves that absolute and sure lesson that a thousand warning from Mom failed to teach us. In literature, the author who simply tells the story, and lets the reader make of it what they will, is the type of author the lets us discover the moral of the story on our own. To quote another axiom, revalation is a far greater teacher than explanation. When kids see Harry stuggle and make mistakes, they see real life, they see the decisions they themselves struggle with every day. Then they see Harry in the most critical and important points make decisions that are difficult and dangerous, but they see him put others above himself, and without the author having to say so, they have a revelation, without being told, they determine on their own, what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad. That is a lifetime's worth of knowledge gained in an instant. I think we allow kids to become so isolated and pampered that we never give them a chance to have moral revelations as an on-going experience in their life. Consequently, when the time comes, they are far more prone to making impulsive self-serving decisions that get them in trouble, and sadly sometime have dark and deadly consequences. Any author that is trying to force a moral perspective, or 'preach' to the readers, with a few exceptions, is very likely to create a very hollow reading experience, an experience that while it explains it lessons well, will generate virtually no revalations. In a sense, like many great authors and teachers before her, JKR is telling the universal tale, the hero's journey, and each of us will take from that whatever univeral wisdom servers us. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 3 21:18:04 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 21:18:04 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - a maverick view.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: Valky: > Having the opinion that you are not quite 'so of little brain' Geoff I > would say you probably have a pretty good idea what I am saying here > and that this is not the part that you really wanted me to explain. > But in case I am too deprived of sleep some 50 hours since I last woke > up and am assuming irrationally, what I meant here is pretty much, I > think, a simple agreement with what you had said before but with my > own flavour added. In your original post you said that the prophecy > seemed to contradict the facts, and that the words of the prophecy > implied by 'neither can live while the other survives' that neither is > alive and that one of these two is quite possibly dead. I expanded on > this with the word Irony because I wondered if "The Boy who *Lived*" > was an ironic misdirection by JKR placed in plain view at the > beginning of the series. Geoff: What I actually said was: 'But then we reach "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives". This to me is a contradiction in terms. Both Harry and Voldemort are alive. This contradicts the prophecy; one of them should be dead and one should be surviving . So what do we make of this? ' I did /not/ imply the interpretation which you put on that - I merely wondered what we are to make of this apparent contradiction. I had not latched onto the hypothesis which you were putting forward. This is why I asked for your clarification which you have now kindly provided.It is obvious that our thoughts were not running in parallel hence my confusion about your comments. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue May 3 22:40:27 2005 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (Ravenclaw Bookworm) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 22:40:27 -0000 Subject: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128465 Snapesangel: 4)A reason external to the narrative itself - there doesn't seem much point JK "throwing us a bone" if the character is an entirely new one that not even the most subtle analysis of the book will enable one to pick up on in advance. Bookworm: IMO, the seems to be just what she does. My example: at the Edinburgh Book Festival (http://www.quick-quote- quill.org/articles/2004/0804-ebf.htm) JKR says: <> If it isn't 'guessable' why would she ask us? Just to tease us and keep us guessing ;-) Ravenclaw Bookworm From t.forch at email.dk Tue May 3 22:45:53 2005 From: t.forch at email.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 00:45:53 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape- Universal Teacher - Universal Story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050504003558.03441100@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 128466 At 20:35 03-05-05 +0000, Steve wrote: >I've been reading the many posts on Snape and whether he is an >effective teacher or not, and something occurred to me. >I honestly think that relative to the school aspect of the story, >Snape is there simply because every protagonist needs an antagonsit. I think that you are right to a very large extent (I don't think we can rule out the possibility of him getting an extended role in the school aspect of the story later, though it isn't very likely, IMO). >Among the students, Draco fills that role, among the teachers Snape >fills that role, in the greater world, Voldemort fills that role. Yes. And since Voldemort cannot enter Hogwarts, Harry needs an adult antagonist while he is staying there. It is part of the child-hero role to fight against adults (and to be supported by other adults, who needs to be, in some ways, incredibly blind) -- Draco simply wouldn't make a believable antagonist for Harry (and if he did, Harry would become an anti-hero of the sort that was popular some thirty years ago). >As a side note: Love his or hate him, I would speculate that Snape is >the single most discussed character in this group. I have often said that I consider Severus Snape to be probably the greatest single literary achievement of Jo Rowling. Harry is nice, and, for a magical hero, rather complex of character (stealing cars go beyond sneaking out of school), but he is still a painting in light pastel shades only, against the hint of both light and shadow and full colours that is Snape. Regards, Troels Forchhammer From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue May 3 22:52:09 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 22:52:09 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128468 >>Tonks: >Yes, JKR could well be using the Christian religious celebrations of Christmas and Easter in a secular way, just as they are observed in secular society by folks that are not Christian. I agree that is a possibility. I have never said that Harry or any of the WW or MW folks are Christian.< Betsy: I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the the bulk of the characters in the Harry Potter series *are* Christians. At least, that's what they'd mark on a survey. I'm not going to try and guess which denominations or level of church involvement, but I'd lay down a pretty penny that the four founders were Christians (Catholics most probably, based on the time period, and possibly even members of the clergy). I'm sure that Hogwarts used to hold chapel once a week (maybe even once a day at one point), and I'm relatively confident that all old pure-blood families are C of E. I base this on two things, history and canon. We know that the witches and wizards of the WW brush shoulders with the Muggle world quite often. Entrances to the WW in London are placed smack-dab in the middle of the Muggle world, the Black family home (purest of the pure-bloods) is surrounded by Muggles, and the Prime Minister not only knows of the existence of the WW, he assists them with their problems, from time to time. My point here is this, the Muggle world *does* affect the WW. We also know that when Christianity came to the British Isles, witches and wizards were not a secret society - not officially anyway. Converts were made, enough so that the Hogwart ghosts have a few nuns and at least one friar floating around the place. The fact that the friar has enough pull to become an official house ghost suggests that Christian witches and wizards were not a marginalized minority. I think it's not outside the realm of possibility that there were orders within the Catholic church made up entirely of witches or wizards. If the Prime Minister today knows about the WW, it makes sense that the power brokers of the time knew about the WW, and the Pope was a mighty power broker back in the day. Wouldn't it make sense to have orders where witches and wizards could use their magic to help strengthen and enrich the church without freaking out the Muggle clergy? (There could well be wizarding orders to this day, in the Harry Potter world.) When England went through its religous wars (long after Hogwarts' founding) I believe it became treasonous to be Catholic. And just as I speculate that the Pope knew about the WW, I'd imagine King Henry VIII, Queen Mary I, and Queen Elizabeth I knew about the WW too. So I imagine there was some pressure on the WW to convert (under Henry and Elizabeth, anyway), just as there had been on the Muggle world. (I would also imagine there'd be the same attractions - if my creaky knowledge of this time period serves me English landowners were allowed to take the riches of any Catholic church on their lands. I would think landowning wizards would have the same privileges, and the pure-blood families, as we've seen them, would most likely take full advantage.) By the time the WW went completely underground in 1692 I would imagine the Anglican church had taken a firm hold with British wizards. As per canon we know that Harry, his parents and Sirius Black are Christians. (I'm not arguing a deep religous faith here - just a statistical background.) Harry was christened, by his parents, and Sirius became his godfather (I believe most churches prefer the godparents to be the same religion as the child). Sirius was also singing a *very* Christian Christmas carol in OotP, one the choir was not allowed to sing at my very secular public school in NYC. True, he mixed the words up, and God rest ye merry gentleman became God rest ye merry Hippogriffs, but the fact he knew the carol and enjoyed singing it suggests that he's been raised a Christian. (If he'd been converted via James or Lily, I feel like the song would be so new and holy to him, he wouldn't mess with the words.) There's nothing in canon that suggests that being a witch or wizard would go against a monotheistic faith. Magic is presented in an almost scientific manner. No gods or goddesses are called down. Actually, there's very little chanting at all. You call out the *name* of the spell, but you don't call on an outside power. Astrology and tea-leaf reading, etc., are treated as a bit of a joke and not really real, and even the Centaurs seem to be doing something more akin to chaos theory than out and out star-reading. Compare that to the way magic is portrayed in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" where Willow was *constantly* calling on various gods and goddesses and you can see that there's nothing really there, in the Harry Potter world, to contradict a Christian witch or wizards faith (or a Jewish or Muslim, for that matter). [As an aside - it's interestign that the only chanting came from the *really* evil wizard in an act of what amounts to a form of necromancy (GoF). Other Christian tenents were broken too. Deliberate dis-honoring of a parent (Tom's father), an act of idol worship with Peter worshiping Voldemort with the sacrifice of his hand, and a virgin sacrifice with Harry's blood being taken. And didn't it all take place on Christian holy ground? All in all, a very bad thing.] I don't think *all* the students at Hogwarts are Christian. JKR has been too deliberate in creating a diverse student body for that. I imagine that the statistics for various religions at Hogwarts are similar to the statistics for the population of England. And I'm betting that quite a few kids are a member of a church in name only. I doubt we're going to see a chapel scene or any character at prayer. But I do think that when Hogwarts closes for Christmas and Easter, they really are closing for Christmas and Easter. Even if for most folks it's all about the presents and the chocolate eggs. Betsy, who grits her teeth whenever a character in a HP fanfic refers casually to "the gods", for reasons of pure accuracy From redlena_web at yahoo.com Tue May 3 18:56:31 2005 From: redlena_web at yahoo.com (redlena_web) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 18:56:31 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting (was: Hermione and Snape). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128469 > > a_svirn: > > And I don't buy the story she made up about her > > boggart being McGonagall telling her she's failed everything. > > For one thing, she couldn't have been THAT much worried > > about her results, for another ? a blood-curdling cry is not a > > likely reaction to such news. > > She must have encountered something really horrid out > > there and for some reasons felt compelled to conceal what it > > was. I wonder what? > > a_svirn > > Karen: > I also think a hysterical scream is a very typical *Hermione* > reaction to the news that she had failed all her exams. I don't > believe that McGonagall is the significant part of the boggart, it > is the news that is significant. To Hermione, who values > intellect and learning above any material thing, failure of exams > would be a total catastrophe. > Karen RedLena: I agree with Karen... this reaction was completely in character for Hermione. This is a girl who believes that school is more important than life itself. "I hope you're pleased with yourselves. We could have been all killed -- or worse, expelled." -Hermione, PS/SS The idea of failing everything would be a true horror to her. And to have the news delivered by McGonagall, the head of Hermione's house and an authority figure whom she respects, would make the horrible news even worse. -- RedLena From nrenka at yahoo.com Tue May 3 23:09:16 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 23:09:16 -0000 Subject: Snape- Universal Teacher - Universal Story In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050504003558.03441100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > I have often said that I consider Severus Snape to be probably > the greatest single literary achievement of Jo Rowling. > > Harry is nice, and, for a magical hero, rather complex of character > (stealing cars go beyond sneaking out of school), but he is still > a painting in light pastel shades only, against the hint of both > light and shadow and full colours that is Snape. My question is; is he going to *stay* that way? Harry is a complex character in part because we actually ride along with Harry; we know what he thinks and feels, and how we works through things. He gets more page time than anyone else, he is the most detailed character in the series. Next to Harry, Snape is pale *when you go back and read what is really there on the page*. There is considerably less time devoted to him, less information given, and most importantly we have absolutely no access to his thought processes. Full colors? Drawn in very broad strokes, to be honest. The complexity is largely (but not completely) the result of readers filling in the blanks in different ways to explain things left out. However, HP has always been a series that asks questions that it absolutely 100% knows the answers to. And I humbly submit that a lot of what makes Snape 'complex' is in that category. Does Snape become less complex if we have a sealed-in-stone reason for his joining the DEs and defecting? Yes. If we get an explanation for behavior that resolves out seeming contradictions? Yes. Her narrative technique in setting us up to ask the questions is masterful, but they are due to be answered this book and the next, and she certainly seems inclined to begin really tossing out the answers. She's going to utterly destroy a lot of ideas about the characters, and this one in particular, in doing so. And when a character's complexity is built far more on withheld information than on time working through his thoughts, actions, and development... Snape, really complex in the long run? I doubt it. -Nora gets back to writing about music that is genuinely complex, if deceptively simple From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 3 23:18:06 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 03 May 2005 23:18:06 -0000 Subject: Transcendant Wisdom? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128471 Lupinlore said: One of the GREATEST TEACHERS OF THEM ALL? Err, ah, uhm, yeah, ahem. Sorry, but IMO that is also elevating JKR to a position well beyond what she deserves. A very good writer she most certainly is, most of the time anyway. But Shakespeare has nothing to worry about, and she wouldn't have cut any great shakes on the Committee of Translators that translated the King James Version of the Bible. Much less is she in the company of the people who actually wrote the contents of the Bible, or the Talmud, or the Koran, or the Upanishads, or the Gitas, or the Tao Te Ching, or the Sutras. Tonks replys: Perhaps I should be very careful how I chose my words. First I did not mean that JKR was THE greatest teacher of ALL TIME. I said she was one of the greatest teachers of all. I was thinking of our times and the Hogwarts experience. I certainly didn't mean to equate her with the authors of great spiritual classics like the Bible, Tao Te Ching, etc. Annemehr: Here's one example of what she really did say (from the World Book Day chat of March '04): Majeed from Bristol Grammar School - Bristol: "To what extent did you conceive Harry Potter as a moral tale?" ****SCHOOLS COMPETITION WINNER**** JK Rowling replies -> "I did not conceive it as a moral tale, the morality sprang naturally out of the story, a subtle but important difference. ==================================== SSSusan: Here are a couple of quotes which speak to this topic. Q: What do you think of the people who want to ban your books? A: I think they are... uh.. what's a good word? Misguided. I think these are very moral books. (snip) -- Now, I don't set out thinking, "this is what they're going to learn in this book", ever. I have a real horror of preaching to anyone, or of trying to make, you know, enormous points. You know, I'm not driven by the need to "teach" children anything, although those things do come up naturally in the stories, which I think is quite moral. Because it's a battle between good and evil. [Diane Rehm Show, 1999] Tonks replys: OK, so maybe she doesn't have this grand scheme that I thought that she had, but she does say that there is a teaching there. Not a preaching, a teaching, and that is sprang from the story rather that the story coming from it, I guess. Still I do think that she is teaching us through the metaphor of the story. The best teachers do not tell you straight out, especially when dealing with the lessons of life. That is why there are so many folktales. That is the reason why Jesus himself taught in parables. Metaphors and parables speak directly to our subconscious mind, when the most profound learning takes place. And that is what I think that she is doing, teaching in story form some profound truths of life to children of an age when they are most receptive to hearing. I don't think that was an accident. Either she thought of it herself or was inspired somehow to direct the story to 10-12 year olds. That is the time when children are most receptive to stories of this type. Earlier and they may not understand the subtle ideas of a morality that is not black and white, and older and they are in the rebellion years and not receptive any longer. So if purposefully or just by some *chance* she is doing what needs to be done in the way, time and place that is right for our society. There is a saying in the East "when the student is ready the teacher will appear". And I think that she has. Sometimes we teach others without even knowing that we are. So even if she says that she didn't set out to teach a moral truth, she is teaching a moral truth, and she does acknowledge that HP is a moral story. Tonks_op From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Wed May 4 00:00:54 2005 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 00:00:54 -0000 Subject: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet In-Reply-To: <1f6.9043d0f.2fa8f5ec@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kaylee Tonks-Lupin wrote: > Kaylee now: Wait, not necessarily. Aren't Dumbledore and Harry looking into > a Pensieve on the cover of HBP? Perhaps this "old lion" is in a memory? It's > just a thought. > > Just my two Knuts, karenoc1 here: Kaylee's idea is great! What if Dumbledore is remembering meeting Godric Gryffindor? Of course, he may have had to use a timeturner to have met him at all.... From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed May 4 00:23:33 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 00:23:33 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - a maverick view.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" > wrote: > > Valky: > > In your original post you said that the prophecy > > seemed to contradict the facts, and that the words of the prophecy > > implied by 'neither can live while the other survives' that > > neither is alive and that one of these two is quite possibly dead. > > I expanded on this with the word Irony because I wondered if "The > > Boy who *Lived*" was an ironic misdirection by JKR placed in plain > > view at the beginning of the series. > > > Geoff: > > What I actually said was: > 'But then we reach "and either must die at the hand of the other for > neither can live while the other survives". This to me is a > contradiction in terms. Both Harry and Voldemort are alive. This > contradicts the prophecy; one of them should be dead and one should > be surviving . So what do we make of this? ' > > I did /not/ imply the interpretation which you put on that - I > merely wondered what we are to make of this apparent contradiction. > Valky: Fair enough, but later I said that if JKR said somebody is dead then they are dead, that is her own assertion, and the prophecy says that one of them is dead. As you pointed out eloquently better than I did. So can we doubt it? Geoff: > I had not latched onto the hypothesis which you were putting > forward. This is why I asked for your clarification which you have > now kindly provided. It is obvious that our thoughts were not > running in parallel hence my confusion about your comments. Valky: Ok my mistake Geoff, sorry, but something has hit me now that you have highlighted the section of the prophecy that you had referred to. There has been speculation around here about the meaning of either, it could mean 'both' or 'one or the other'. Now if I follow the premise that one of them is dead and the other 'survived' then it follows that 'either', in the prophecy, means 'both', because one has already died. Using deduction - Only Harry has the power to defeat the Dark Lord, so if the dead one is Voldie then he died at the hand of Harry.. this hasn't happened If one of them IS dead then it follows that he died by the hand of the other and that one of them has used his 'hand' to kill the other... this is what Voldie did to Harry in GH Deducing from this that Harry is 'dead?':S and that it's not over, then it follows that it cannot be 'one or the other must die at the hand of the other' or it would already be over. Conclusion - It must mean Both and Harry really must kill Voldemort. He doesn't have a choice between kill or be killed... all thats left for him to do is kill Voldie. now thats Maverick!! lol ;D Valky From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Wed May 4 00:48:56 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 00:48:56 -0000 Subject: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128474 Kaylee now: Wait, not necessarily. Aren't Dumbledore and Harry looking into a Pensieve on the cover of HBP? Perhaps this "old lion" is in a memory? It's just a thought. Just my two Knuts, karenoc1 here: Kaylee's idea is great! What if Dumbledore is remembering meeting Godric Gryffindor? Of course, he may have had to use a timeturner to have met him at all.... Barmaid now: I don't _necessarily_ think it is Gryffindor, but I like the idea that it does not have to be someone currently alive, but could be someone from the past. A pensive would be one way to access the past. To take this line of thought a step further, what if _the_ pensive is not so much _Dumbledore's_ pensive as _The Headmaster's_ pensive or _The Hogwarts_ pensive and contains memories from Hogwarts of the past. Perhaps even memories from the founders themselves. Perhaps some special magic must be found to access those memories. Perhaps that is where the cemetery JKR has told us in on the grounds will come in..... hmmmmmmmmm. --Barmaid From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Wed May 4 01:26:37 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 01:26:37 -0000 Subject: Snape, Umbridge, and teaching. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128475 phoenixgod2000 wrote: > I wanted to address a common point that people seem to bring up on > the Snape teaching post. People have been bringing up Umbridge's talk > about how advanced his classes are. I would submit that this isn't > the best piece of evidence for Snape's teaching skills. > > Why is it that we should take her praise of Snape as gospel truth when practically everything else she does in the entire book is about hiding the truth? Why should we believe her? > > Another point I just thought about was perhaps she was buttering up > Snape for her future plans. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I don't know, I just have a hard time seeing it from this point of view. Umbridge seemed to have been sent to Hogwarts to disrupt any learning there, every time someone showed some talent, she would sqash it. I believe that is why we would take her word as gospel truth, because, she seemed to be going after everyone, including Snape. In the scene where Umbridge wants Snape to give her Veritaserum, she yells at him "You are on Probation!" now, in rereading it I am trying to get her meaning. She does not say "I'm putting you on probation!", she says "You are on Probation", as if it is already a fact. So, perhaps some may read it as she just put him on probation, but it sounds to me like, he was already on probation, because of his 'advanced class' phoenixgod2000 wrote: She seemed to use the Slytherins excessively as the cornerstone of her inquisition squad. It seems to me that the first step would be to get the head of their house ojn her side. KarentheUnicorn's reply: With the having to get the head of house to let the slytherin students join her Inquisition squad, I don't see why she would need permission from Snape. If she could overrun McGonagall, who was Headmistress of Hogwarts, and also a head of house, they why would she need Snapes permission to use his Slytherin house students? Plus once she (Umbridge) got rid of Dumbledore she was in fact, mistress of the school, so he(Snape) would have to bow down to her wishes. SO, to me, she did not need to butter his ego, or as if she might please use his students, she could do what she wanted. It almost seemed to me Snape tried his best to stay under her radar, and out of the way, as to not appear or show who's side he was on. Which was obviously Dumbledore's, since Dumbledore said Snape was the one who contacted the order about the events that happened when Harry though Sirius was captured. Dumbledore said to Harry: "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certain order members at once." KarentheUnicorn From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Wed May 4 01:33:18 2005 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 01:33:18 -0000 Subject: Repost of KITTENS & RAINBOWS, part I (TBAY intro) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128476 This theory was originally published in messages #78982 #79691 and #83445. Since then a lot of bits and pieces have been added to it, and now with the new book about to be released I thought it was time for a repost. If you don't like TBAY just skip past the fishes. If you don't know what TBAY is go read the Fantastic Posts archives. <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents ? except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets, rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating... actually no it wasn't. It was a bright sunny day. Sometimes the weather just isn't as dramatic as you had hoped it would be. The KITTENS & RAINBOWS (Key Is The Transferred Essence Now Seeking Reunion. Affection Is Not Beyond Obsessive Wicked Sorcerer.) had come into the harbour that morning and now lay moored at one of the wooden docks. In front of the ship captain Maus was busy setting up a small vending stall. The stall was filled entirely with hand-knitted sweaters, each one different from the next, but all of them decorated with the most strange combinations of rainbows and playful kittens imaginable. As he was doing this a small crowd of people was starting to gather around the stall. "So why do all these sweaters have kittens and rainbows on them", asked a man at the front of the crowd who was holding up a particularly ghastly sweater. "Everybody likes kittens don't they, everybody likes rainbows don't they, don't you like kittens?", captain Maus didn't seem to be entirely sure about this. "Yes, but why are they on every sweater", a women to the left of the man holding the sweater asked. "It is the name of the theory", captain Maus said and he nudged his head towards the name painted in large letters on the massive black ship behind him. There was of course a perfectly good reason why the theory was named KITTENS & RAINBOWS, and most of the inhabitants of Theory Bay knew better than to ask what it was. "Is it about kittens and rainbows?", the woman persisted. "Not exactly." "It is not about kittens and rainbows?" "Not as such, no." "Why is the name of the theory kittens and rainbows then?" "It is to distract people from what the theory is really about", he finally admitted. He was looking around to see if anyone else might want to buy a sweater. "So... what are the kittens and the rainbows meant to distract us from?", she didn't seem to want to let this go. And now that it was becoming very clear that no one else was going to buy a sweater he gave in. "The theory really is about how Harry will die a horrible bloody death at the hands of Voldemort." The crowd as one man drew back from the stall. For some reason people always seemed get upset when he told them that Voldemort was going to kill Harry. There had in fact been a short period of time where he had tried to sell hand-knitted sweaters showing Voldemort killing Harry, a lot of people had gotten upset and he had never managed to sell a single sweater - there may have been a connection with the large amount of red wool he had used. So now he sold sweaters with kittens and rainbows on them. So far the marketing ploy did not seem to be working. Just when that seemed to be it, the silence was broken by an old woman at the back of the crowd clearing her throat. "How do you know Voldemort is going to kill Harry?", she asked. <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< <')))>< "Harry did the best he could, trying to ignore the stabbing pains in his forehead, which had been bothering him ever since his trip into the forest." / "Harry was rubbing his forehead. 'I wish I knew what this means!' he burst out angrily. 'My scar keeps hurting ? it's happened before, but never as often as this.'" ? [PS/SS] In PS/SS something very strange is going on with the pain in Harry's scar. Harry's scar hurts during the start-of-term feast. Then from the start-of-term feast until a week before final exams Harry's scar doesn't hurt; for a period of almost nine months there isn't even the slightest hint of pain from Harry's scar. Harry encounters Quirrellmort in the Forbidden Forest and suddenly Harry's scar starts hurting all the time; for a period of a week there is no end to the pain coming from Harry's scar. So why doesn't Harry's scar hurt like that in the months before his encounter with Quirrellmort? The way Harry's scar behaves in PS/SS doesn't seem very much like the behaviour of a scar which is supposed to hurt whenever Voldemort is nearby or feeling particularly upset about something, it seems more like the behaviour of a scar which until the encounter with Quirrellmort simply did not realise Voldemort was hidden nearby - a scar which is actually aware of what goes on around it. I believe that is because Harry's scar is aware of what goes on around it. In CoS Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort unintentionally transferred some of his own powers to Harry the night he gave Harry his scar. I don't think that is all Voldemort transferred to Harry that night. I think Voldemort in fact transferred a part of his mind to Harry. Harry's scar marks the place where this separated part of Voldemort's mind dug its way into Harry's head. This explains the strange behaviour of Harry's scar in PS/SS. Until the encounter with Quirrellmort the separated part of Voldemort's mind had not realised Voldemort was hidden nearby. This explains the strange connection between Harry and Voldemort. It is the two separate parts of Voldemort's mind that share a strong connection. This explains why Harry's scar always hurts when the connection with Voldemort is active. It is the part of Voldemort's mind underneath Harry's scar that is connected to Voldemort. And this explains why Harry's scar always hurts when Voldmort is nearby. The part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry desperately wants to return to the rest of Voldemort.(1) In this first post I will try to show that there is a separated part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry. The best way to do that is to show how this separated part of Voldemort's mind has been trying to influence Harry over the past fifteen years. *Harry's early childhood* The separated part of Voldemort's mind already was trying to influence Harry when Harry was still living with the Dursleys. When Harry was very small the separated part of Voldemort's mind talked to Harry: "Harry couldn't explain, even to himself, why he didn't just throw Riddle's diary away. The fact was that even though he knew the diary was blank, he kept absentmindedly picking it up and turning the pages, as though it were a story he wanted to finish. And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T. M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten. But this was absurd. He'd never had friends before Hogwarts, Dudley had made sure of that." - [CoS] It could not have been the anagram that made the name seem familiar, at that point in the story Harry didn't know Riddle's full name was Tom Marvolo Riddle. But it could have been the separated part of Voldemort's mind talking to Harry. That explains how Harry could have had a friend without Dudley knowing about it. That also explains why Harry's friend called himself Tom Riddle. While everyone else ignored Harry the separated part of Voldemort's mind talked to Harry. The separated part of Voldemort's mind became Harry's only childhood friend. And then the separated part of Voldemort's mind just stopped talking to Harry. Perhaps Harry's mind became too powerful, slowly forcing it into a dormant state, or perhaps more likely it made a tactical decision to stop talking to Harry. *Harry's first and second year at Hogwarts* When Harry several years later is accepted into Hogwarts the separated part of Voldemort's mind resurfaces. In Harry's first two years at Hogwarts the separated part of Voldemort's mind tries to get Harry to transfer to Slytherin. Harry's first night at Hogwarts Harry is told by the Sorting Hat that he would do well in Slytherin. That night the separated part of Voldemort's mind talks to Harry in his sleep: "He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully - and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it - then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold - there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." ? [PS/SS] In his dream Harry is wearing Professor Quirrell's turban; we later find out that hidden underneath Professor Quirrell's turban was Voldemort. Which suggests that, like Professor Quirrell, there is a part of Voldemort's mind inside Harry. The turban is constantly talking to Harry, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin, and then the weight of the turban starts to suffocate Harry. Which suggests that the part of Voldemort inside Harry was trying to influence Harry in his sleep. Then in Harry's second year the separated part of Voldemort's mind again tries to get Harry to transfer to Slytherin. When Harry is lying on his bed after the duelling club the separated part of Voldemort's mind talks to Harry: "But I'm in Gryffindor, Harry thought. The Sorting Hat wouldn't have put me in here if I had Slytherin blood... Ah, said a nasty little voice in his brain, but the Sorting Hat wanted to put you in Slytherin, don't you remember?" ? [CoS] We all assume that this little voice Harry hears inside his head was his inner doubt, but this little voice Harry hears inside his head could also have been the separated part of Voldemort's mind talking to Harry for the first time since his early childhood.(2) *Harry's third year at Hogwarts* In Harry's third year the separated part of Voldemort's mind tries to get Harry to kill Sirius. After sneaking of to Hogsmeade Harry finds out that it was because of Sirius' betrayal that his parents are no longer alive. When Harry is lying in bed that night the separated part of Voldemort puts a number of images into Harry's head: "A hatred such as he had never known before was coursing through Harry like poison. He could see Black laughing at him through the darkness, as though somebody had pasted the picture from the album over his eyes. He watched, as though somebody was playing him a piece of film, Sirius Black blasting Peter Pettigrew (who resembled Neville Longbottom) into a thousand pieces. He could hear (though he had no idea what Black's voice might sound like) a low, excited mutter. 'It has happened, my Lord... the Potters have made me their Secret- Keeper...' And then came another voice, laughing shrilly, the same laugh that Harry heard inside his head whenever the Dementors drew near..." ? [PoA] Twice the images inside Harry's head are described as though someone was deliberately showing him these things. And then Harry can also hear Sirius' voice, even though he has never heard Sirius speak before. The separated part of Voldemort's mind was putting on a little show for Harry. The separated part of Voldemort's mind was using Harry's anger to get him to avenge his parents' deaths. And Harry actually gets a chance to kill Sirius when later that year he comes face to face with Sirius in the Shrieking Shack. Then just as Harry has his wand pointed at Sirius, the separated part of Voldemort's mind talks to Harry: "Black made a startled movement that almost dislodged Crookshanks; Harry gripped his wand convulsively - Do it now! said a voice in his head - but the footsteps were thundering up the stairs and Harry still hadn't done it." ? [PoA] Again Harry hears a voice inside his head and this time the voice Harry hears inside his head certainly was not his inner doubt. Again the separated part of Voldemort's mind talks to Harry. *Harry's fourth year at Hogwarts* In Harry's fourth year the separated part of Voldemort's mind tries to keep Sirius away from Harry. When Harry's scar hurts at the start of the year, Harry decides to write a letter to Sirius. But when Sirius then replies that he's coming back to Britain, Harry becomes worried about Sirius' safety. That night the separated part of Voldemort's mind talks to Harry in his sleep: "Early next morning, Harry woke with a plan fully formed in his mind, as though his sleeping brain had been working on it all night. He got up, dressed in the pale dawn light, left the dormitory without waking Ron, and went back down to the deserted common room. Here he took a piece of parchment from the table upon which his Divination homework still lay and wrote the following letter: Dear Sirius, I reckon I just imagined my scar hurting, I was half asleep when I wrote to you last time. There's no point coming back, everything's fine here. Don't worry about me, my head feels completely normal. Harry" ? [GoF] The fact that the idea to write to Sirius arrived fully formed in Harry's mind after his sleeping brain working had been working on it all night is very suspicious. It suggests that the separated part of Voldemort's mind again tried to influence Harry in his sleep. Harry was genuinely concerned for Sirius' safety, the separated part of Voldemort's mind used that concern to get Harry to write to Sirius. *Harry's fifth year at Hogwarts* And then in Harry's fifth year Harry is suddenly behaving not at all like the Harry we have come to know and love. At the same time the separated part of Voldemort's mind talks to Harry more than any of the previous years: "But if he had remembered... if he had thought about it... what would he have expected? Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head." ? [OotP] (3) "He had been so sure his parents were wonderful people that he had never had the slightest difficulty in disbelieving the aspersions Snape cast on his father's character. Hadn't people like Hagrid and Sirius told Harry how wonderful his father had been? (Yeah, well, look what Sirius was like himself, said a nagging voice inside Harry's head... he was as bad, wasn't he?)" ? [OotP] "Harry was listening hard for the slightest sound of movement, but Sirius might be gagged now, or else unconscious... or, said an unbidden voice inside his head, he might already be dead..." ? [OotP] "Nothing happened. The frustrated face looking back out of the mirror was still, definitely, his own... Sirius didn't have his mirror on him when he went through the archway, said a small voice in Harry's head. That's why it's not working... Harry remained quite still for a moment, then hurled the mirror back into the trunk where it shattered." ? [OotP] I don't think it is a coincidence that in a year where Harry is suddenly behaving very differently, Harry is hearing more voices inside his head than ever. Harry shouts at his friends, Harry quickly becomes angry at his friends, Harry at times completely shuts his friends out. In Harry's fifth year the separated part of Voldemort's mind has been trying to alienate Harry from his friends. The separated part of Voldemort's mind has been using Harry's own fears and doubts to make him question the motives and loyalty of his friends. *Summary* Over the last five years the separated part of Voldemort's mind has tried to get Harry to transfer to Slytherin, tried to get Harry to kill someone, and tried to get Harry to distance himself from the people he trusts most. It seems very clear what the separated part of Voldemort's mind has been trying to do, the separated part of Voldemort's mind has been trying to get Harry to follow in its footsteps. -Maus (1) This is what Dumbledore is talking about when he's muttering to himself after the snake attack on Arthur Weasley: "'Naturally, naturally,' murmured Dumbledore apparently to himself, still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of surprise. 'But in essence divided?' Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The smoke serpent, however, split itself instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air." Dumbledore is talking about the essence of Voldemort, Voldemort's mind. The snakes represent the separate parts of Voldemort's mind, which share a bond but at the same time have been living completely separate lives for the past fifteen years. One part trapped inside Harry watching him grow up, the other forced to go into exile waiting for his followers to finally come looking for him. (2) Or possibly the second time the separated part of Voldemort's mind talked to Harry since his early childhood, there is also this incident at the end of PS/SS: "Quirrell screamed and tried to throw Harry off - the pain in Harry's head was building - he couldn't see - he could only hear Quirrell's terrible shrieks and Voldemort's yells of, 'KILL HIM! KILL HIM!' and other voices, maybe in Harry's own head, crying, 'Harry! Harry!'" ? [PS/SS] One of these voices almost certainly is Dumbledore coming just in time to pull Harry away from Professor Quirrell. The fact that Harry was not sure if the voices were coming from outside his own head suggests that the other voice was coming from inside his head. (3) Harry then goes on to have an entire conversation with the voice inside his head: "But if he had remembered... if he had thought about it... what would he have expected? Not this, said a small and truthful voice inside his head. Harry screwed up his face and buried it in his hands. He could not lie to himself; if he had known the prefect badge was on its way, he would have expected it to come to him, not Ron. Did this make him as arrogant as Draco Malfoy? Did he think himself superior to everyone else? Did he really believe he was better than Ron? No, said the small voice defiantly. Was that true? Harry wondered, anxiously probing his own feelings. I'm better at Quidditch, said the voice. But I'm not better at anything else. That was definitely true, Harry thought; he was no better than Ron in lessons. But what about outside lessons? What about those adventures he, Ron and Hermione had had together since starting at Hogwarts, often risking much worse than expulsion? Well, Ron and Hermione were with me most of the time, said the voice in Harry's head. Not all the time, though, Harry argued with himself. They didn't fight Quirrell with me. They didn't take on Riddle and the Basilisk. They didn't get rid of all those Dementors the night Sirius escaped. They weren't in that graveyard with me, the night Voldemort returned... And the same feeling of ill-usage that had overwhelmed him on the night he had arrived rose again. I've definitely done more, Harry thought indignantly. I've done more than either of them! But maybe, said the small voice fairly, maybe Dumbledore doesn't choose prefects because they've got themselves into a load of dangerous situations... maybe he chooses them for other reasons... Ron must have something you don't... Harry opened his eyes and stared through his fingers at the wardrobe's clawed feet, remembering what. Fred had said: 'No one in their right mind would make Ron a prefect...' Harry gave a small snort of laughter. A second later he felt sickened with himself." ? [OotP] It is not really clear what the separated part of Voldemort's mind is trying to do here. Perhaps it was trying to make Harry envious of Ron's prefect badge, or perhaps it was using reverse psychology to make Harry doubt Dumbledore's faith in him. Whatever it was trying to do, it certainly is not a good sign when you start having entire conversations with the voices inside your head. From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Wed May 4 01:39:54 2005 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 01:39:54 -0000 Subject: Repost of KITTENS & RAINBOWS, part II Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128477 And then there is Voldemort. Voldemort does not understand love. Voldemort himself does not feel love. And when Voldemort experiences the love of others he actually feels physical pain. As demonstrated in PS/SS when Quirrellmort could not touch Harry. And again in OotP when Voldemort could not bear to be inside Harry's body. Voldemort in his quest for everlasting life has lost the most important part of being alive. Without the ability to feel love I don't think Voldemort can be truly alive. In this second post I will try to show that Voldemort is not truly alive. For that we have to go back to the end of PS/SS. *Not being truly alive, he cannot be killed* We know that Voldemort was not truly alive at the end of PS/SS because Dumbledore told Harry Voldemort was not truly alive: "He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share... not being truly alive, he cannot be killed." ? [PS/SS] Dumbledore could have been referring to three things. Dumbledore could have been referring to Voldemort's vapor state. But then it was because he couldn't be killed that Voldemort became a vapor in the first place, not the other way around. Dumbledore could have been referring to Voldemort's state of cursed half-life caused by drinking unicorn blood. Unicorn blood however doesn't seem to keep you permanently from dying. It certainly didn't prevent Professor Quirrell from dying. So perhaps what Dumbledore was referring to were the steps Voldemort had taken long ago to guard himself against death. These steps then have made it impossible to kill Voldemort by making Voldemort no longer truly alive. And these steps have made Voldemort no longer truly alive by making Voldemort lose the most important part of being alive. This would mean Voldemort already was not truly alive the night he showed up in Godric's Hollow, and he still is not truly alive at the end of OotP. *For neither can live while the other survives* This has some interesting consequences, especially if we consider the prophecy which states: "... for neither can live while the other survives." ? [OotP] Harry seems to think this means one of them will have to kill the other. When he asks Dumbledore if that is what it means Dumbledore simply answers 'yes'. Dumbledore as always is right of course - In part that is what it means, but that is not all it means. Bear with me while I indulge in a bit of sentence deconstruction. 'Neither' meaning 'not one and not the other', this bit of sentence can be broken down into: Voldemort cannot live while Harry survives AND Harry cannot live while Voldemort survives. It's important to note that both statements have to be true. Now the tricky part; the meaning of the word 'while'. In this context 'while' can either mean 'when on the other hand' or 'as long as', giving us the following possible combinations: A) Voldemort cannot live when on the other hand Harry survives AND Harry cannot live when on the other hand Voldemort survives. B) Voldemort cannot live as long as Harry survives AND Harry cannot live as long as Voldemort survives. C) Voldemort cannot live when on the other hand Harry survives AND Harry cannot live as long as Voldemort survives. D) Voldemort cannot live as long as Harry survives AND Harry cannot live when on the other hand Voldemort survives. The first combination seems to be nonsensical, it would mean that both Harry and Voldemort cannot live and both Harry and Voldemort survive, all at the same time. Which leaves combinations B, C and D. At least one of them and perhaps even both cannot live 'as long as' the other survives. Since both Harry and Voldemort at present clearly seem to be surviving, this would mean that at least one of them is not truly alive at the moment.(4) So is the prophecy referring to the fact that Voldemort literally is not truly alive? If it is then it is only when Voldemort kills Harry that he can become truly alive again, and at the same time can be killed again. *Summary* Dumbledore is saying Voldemort cannot be killed until he becomes truly alive. The prophecy is saying Voldemort cannot become truly alive until Harry dies. There can only be one possible outcome: Voldemort will kill Harry. -Maus (4) Of course this could also mean that at least one of them is figuratively not truly alive. Harry certainly has reason to figuratively not be truly alive. While Voldemort is out there killing the ones he loves and threatening to take over Harry's mind, Harry will never be able to live a normal life. Voldemort however does not seem to have any reason to figuratively not be truly alive. Nothing is stopping him from abandoning this whole world domination/immortality thing, moving to a nice warm tropical island, and making loads of money of a best selling autobiography entitled 'How I became the Dark Lord'. He could certainly use the tan. From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Wed May 4 01:44:12 2005 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 01:44:12 -0000 Subject: Repost of KITTENS & RAINBOWS, part III Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128478 Harry faces an intense battle with the part of Voldemort inside of him. While the separated part of Voldemort's mind will try to make Harry go down the same path it once followed, Harry will have to try to make the separated part of Voldemort's mind become human again. But no matter who wins this battle, in the end Voldemort will kill Harry. When Voldemort kills Harry, the separated part of Voldemort's mind will finally be free to return to Voldemort; and it will take with it everything it experienced while it was trapped in Harry's body, including the love Harry experienced for the people around him. At that moment Voldemort will directly experience how much Harry was actually like him: both were orphans, both had a very tough childhood being raised by Muggles, both were half-bloods, they even looked alike when they were young. But unlike Voldemort, Harry never chose to take revenge on the world; showing Voldemort that it's not the situation we are placed in that determines what we are, it's our choices that define what we truly are. And at that moment Voldemort will directly experience the love Harry felt for the people around him. And it is this love that will ultimately make Voldemort truly alive again. Voldemort cannot feel love or pain. Voldemort's inability to feel love or pain is in fact the fate worse than death Dumbledore mentions. It is worse than death to live without ever experiencing love or pain. It is worse than death to never be truly alive.(5) When Voldemort's mind is reunited he will experience love, and when he does he will become truly alive again. Of course when Voldemort becomes truly alive he can also be killed again. He probably will be killed that very same instant, either by Neville or by Wormtail. Doesn't this seem like just the devious underhanded kind of thing J.K. Rowling would come up with, making us believe for a moment that Voldemort actually wins? -Maus See also the KITTENS & RAINBOWS website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html (5) Lupin already told Harry this when he told him about the Dementor's kiss in PoA: "'...they clamp their jaws upon the mouth of the victim and - and suck out his soul' Harry accidentally spat out a bit of his butterbeer. 'What - they kill -?' 'Oh no,' said Lupin. 'Much worse than that. You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are still working.'" ? [PoA] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 4 03:00:12 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 03:00:12 -0000 Subject: Lupin - Potioncat's challenge ( Was: Cannons and teachers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128479 Potioncat: I'd like to issue a challenge. Can(n)ons at 10 paces. We need something to keep us busy for another month or so. Here's my challenge: Choose a teacher and provde canon that shows his or her teaching either in the classroom or at some other moment. Compare, contrast, comment, leave it open, express it however you choose. Are there any takers? Alla: You bet. :-) If I ever put my teaching degree to work , I would like to be Lupin ( with healthy mix of McGonagall) :-) Of course - all interpretations of canon scenes are my own opinions and my own opinions only. >From the first minute Remus makes his students curious about the lesson ( not scared, curious, do you hear me, Severus?) "Good afternoon," he said. "Would you please put all your books back in your bags. Today's will be a practical lesson. You will need only your wands." A few curious looks were exchanged as the class put away their books. They had never had a Practical Defense against the Dark Arts before, unless you counted the memorable class last year when their old teacher had brough a cageful of pixies to class and set them loose" - PoA, paperback, p.130. When Snape makes his disparaging remark about Neville's abilities, Lupin does not wait a second to boost Neville's confidence. "Professor Lupin had raised his eyebrows. "I was hoping that Neville would assist me with the first stage of the operation," he said, " and I am sure he will perform it admirably." Neville's face went, if possible, even redder. Snape's lip curled, but he left, shutting the door with a snap." - PoA, p.132. I loved that Lupin does not hesitate to play the same game Snape does. Snape not only humiliates Neville ( again) in front of his classmates, but also in front of his other teacher. Lupin does the same - he does not wait till Snape leaves, he disagrees with him to his face and makes sure that Neville knows it. I loved how Remus continued to help Neville throughout the lesson. When he talks about the boggart and Neville gets scared, Lupin simply ignores it and NOT directs the attention of the whole class to Neville. "This means," said Professor Lupin, choosing to ignore Neville's small sputter of terror, " that we have a huge advantage over the boggart before we begin. Have you spotted it, Harry?" - PoA, p.133 And of course we have " Snape/boggart" scene. One of my all time favourite scene of the series. Of course I am firmly convinced that Lupin did it mainly for Neville's benefit and I believe that he achieved his goal if only for a short period of time. Neville did manage to stand up to Snape, even if only in boggart form for now. When Snape /boggart appears for the first time , Neville is nervous and scared. " Neville backed away, his wand up, mouthing wordlessly. Snape was bearing down upon him, reaching inside his robes. "R-r-riddikulus!" squeaked Neville." - PoA, p.137. But when Snape appears the second time, Neville does manage to laugh at him. "Forward , Neville, and finish him off!" said Lupin as the boggart landed on the floor as cockroach. Crack! Snape was back. This time Neville charged forward looking determined. "Riddikulus!" he shouted, and they had a split second's view of Snape in his lacy dress before Neville let out a great "Ha!" of laughter, and the boggart exploded, burst into a thousand tiny wisps of smoke, and was gone - PoA, p.139. I loved everything in this lesson, absolutely everything. Of course I loved how he handles Neville's situation the most, but I also loved for example that Lupin does not shut up Hermione, while letting others talk too. And what does Hermione do, when she is allowed to answer the question? "Could not have put it better myself," said Professor Lupin, and Hermione glowed" - PoA, p.133. It seems to me that Hermione wants teacher's encouragement and needs it indeed. Yes, I do understand why JKR said that she would pick Lupin from Hogwarts teachers to teach her daughter. Again, this was just my opinion and my opinion only. Alla. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 4 06:36:28 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 06:36:28 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128480 Betsy wrote: > When England went through its religous wars (long after Hogwarts' > founding) I believe it became treasonous to be Catholic. And just > as I speculate that the Pope knew about the WW, I'd imagine King > Henry VIII, Queen Mary I, and Queen Elizabeth I knew about the WW > too. So I imagine there was some pressure on the WW to convert > (under Henry and Elizabeth, anyway), just as there had been on the > Muggle world. Just a bit of background for you: Henry VIII was a Catholic. He was anti-protestant. When Martin Luther nailed his protest against the Roman Catholic Church Henry VIII wrote a thesis against this and was rewarded by the Pope with the title "Defender of the Faith" - that is where this title, still used by the Monarchy to refer to the CoE, comes from. Although he broke with the Church of Rome he considered himself to be the Head of the *Catholic* Church in England. (He broke with the Church of Rome because the Pope would not annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon, on the grounds that she had been betrothed to his brother - perfectly legal grounds at that time and an annulment had been granted recently to the King of France on similar grounds. The reason the Pope couldn't grant the annulment was mainley because he as being held hostage at the time by the King of Spain - Catherine's nephew! Mary I was an ardent Roman Catholic. She had hundreds of protestants burnt at the stake - hence her popular nickname 'Bloody Mary'. Elizabeth I was raised as a protestant, but when her Sister Mary I was trying to incriminate her for this she was not above attending Roman Catholic Mass. Two of her famous quotes regarding religion, when her ministers were urging her to take start trying to find out who were secret Catholics was "I will not make windows into mens' souls" and "Let each man go to the Devil his own way". Therefore Catholics were not under pressure to convert under any of the above monarchs either Muggle or Wizard/Witch. You've got a very goood point about Harry having been Christened and Sirius being his Godfather. This means that Sirius has to have been Christened himself. I don't think that Hogwarts is a 'Christian school' however, as we would have had to have had mention of chapel somewere along the lines if that was the case. Karen From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 4 06:38:43 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 06:38:43 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: Betsy: > As per canon we know that Harry, his parents and Sirius Black are > Christians. (I'm not arguing a deep religous faith here - just a > statistical background.) Harry was christened, by his parents, and > Sirius became his godfather (I believe most churches prefer the > godparents to be the same religion as the child). Sirius was also > singing a *very* Christian Christmas carol in OotP, one the choir > was not allowed to sing at my very secular public school in NYC. > True, he mixed the words up, and God rest ye merry gentleman became > God rest ye merry Hippogriffs, but the fact he knew the carol and > enjoyed singing it suggests that he's been raised a Christian. Geoff: Thanks for that post which was very thought-provoking. Re Harry's background, I would go so far as to suggest that it was Anglican (Church of England). I somehow doubt that they were Catholic. Godparents are most unusual outside that denomination. Few if any of the Nonconformist churches have kept up the idea of godparents. In the Baptist church, for example, it is normal for the parents to bring the child for dedication and the church collectively vows to support the parents in the upbringing of the infant and to try to help as he or she grows up. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 4 06:47:56 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 06:47:56 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - a maverick view.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: Valky: > Using deduction - > Only Harry has the power to defeat the Dark Lord, so if the dead one > is Voldie then he died at the hand of Harry.. this hasn't happened > > If one of them IS dead then it follows that he died by the hand of the > other and that one of them has used his 'hand' to kill the other... > this is what Voldie did to Harry in GH > > Deducing from this that Harry is 'dead?':S and that it's not over, > then it follows that it cannot be 'one or the other must die at the > hand of the other' or it would already be over. > > Conclusion - It must mean Both and Harry really must kill Voldemort. > He doesn't have a choice between kill or be killed... all thats left > for him to do is kill Voldie. > > now thats Maverick!! Geoff: Oof! I have on a couple of occasions in the past quoted Miles O'Brien in "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" when he got involved in a time travelling situation and, in conversation with his future self, said: "I hate Temporal Mechanics". I think that I am going to put this one in the same category as time- turning and say "I hate Prophecy Analysis". :-( Thought:What we really ought to do is send someone back via a Time- turner and give Tom Riddle a good smacking....... It would solve all these irritating problems. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed May 4 07:44:15 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 07:44:15 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: Sirius was also > singing a *very* Christian Christmas carol in OotP, one the choir > was not allowed to sing at my very secular public school in NYC. > True, he mixed the words up, and God rest ye merry gentleman became > God rest ye merry Hippogriffs, but the fact he knew the carol and > enjoyed singing it suggests that he's been raised a Christian. (If > he'd been converted via James or Lily, I feel like the song would be > so new and holy to him, he wouldn't mess with the words.) > I'd say he was singing a traditional British Christmas Carol. I'm not British, I'm not a Christian and even I know that song. The first time I heard it was on a British Christmas TV film when I was a child. Maybe someone British can shed light on this, but I think it would be near impossible to be raised in Britain and not know it and other traditonals. Gerry From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed May 4 08:51:52 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 18:51:52 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape- Universal Teacher - Universal Story In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <427919C8.19628.473D6D@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 128484 On 3 May 2005 at 20:35, Steve wrote: > I've been reading the many posts on Snape and whether he is an > effective teacher or not, and something occurred to me. > > I appeal to our resident authority, Shaun, to confirm or deny my > statement, but doesn't Professor Snape make an appearance in every > single British School Boy story ever written? Of course, he appears > under many different names, but isn't it pretty much standard fare for > there to be one very unpleasant teacher in the school to act as the > Hero's foil, nemisis, and antagonist? Well, first of all, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find other people on this list who have read many British School stories, and are at least as authoritative on them a I am. I've read a lot, and I collect them, so I do have a good knowledge of them. To answer your question, it's not at all uncommon for a Snape like teacher to appear in such books. I'm on teaching rounds at the moment, so really don't have time to go into all this in as much detail as I would like - but while it isn't by any means a universal thing, it is certainly common. I am actually slowly writing a paper on this - "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Context of the British School Story" (something of a companion to my "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Context of the British Public Schools") but it's not likely to be ready until at least July or August. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 4 10:18:56 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 10:18:56 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: Gerry: > I'd say he was singing a traditional British Christmas Carol. I'm not > British, I'm not a Christian and even I know that song. The first time > I heard it was on a British Christmas TV film when I was a child. > Maybe someone British can shed light on this, but I think it would be > near impossible to be raised in Britain and not know it and other > traditonals. Geoff: If a British person, not used to going to church or Christmas services, wanted to sing a carol or something "Christmassy", I don't think "God rest you merry, gentlemen" would be in the top ten. It's one of the lesser used carols. More likely choices would possibly include "Silent Night", "Hark the Herald Angels Sing", "O little Town of Bethlehem" and "Once in Royal Dvaid's City" or even songs like "Good King Wenceslas" or "Jingle Bells". If this was Sirius' choice [and not JKR's :-)], I'd think he had a good repertoire of carols from which to draw. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 4 12:38:51 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:38:51 -0000 Subject: JKR quotes Lupin & more (was Re: Lupin - Potioncat's challenge ( Was: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128486 > Alla: snip > > Yes, I do understand why JKR said that she would pick Lupin from > Hogwarts teachers to teach her daughter. Potioncat: I was looking for something else, but I found this interview: Fraser, Lindsay. "Harry Potter - Harry and me," The Scotsman, November 2002 My most influential writer, without a doubt, is Jessica Mitford. When my great-aunt gave me Hons and Rebels when I was 14, she instantly became my heroine. She ran away from home to fight in the Spanish Civil War, taking with her a camera that she had charged to her father's account. I wished I'd had the nerve to do something like that. I love the way she never outgrew some of her adolescent traits, remaining true to her politics - she was a self-taught socialist - throughout her life. I think I've read everything she wrote. I even called my daughter after her. Potioncat: That sounds like Sirius and like the twins. Quotes: When did the idea for Harry Potter first enter your head? snip Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry was the first thing I concentrated on. I was thinking of a place of great order but immense danger, with children who had skills with which they could overwhelm their teachers. Logically, it had to be set in a secluded place and pretty soon I settled on Scotland, in my mind. I think it was in subconscious tribute to where my parents had married. People keep saying they know what I based Hogwarts on - but they're all wrong. I have never seen a castle anywhere that looks the way I imagine Hogwarts. Potioncat: Maybe this explains why DD has trouble getting qualified staff: it's a place with children who can overwhelm their teachers... Quotes: Can you describe the process of creating the stories? It was a question of discovering why Harry was where he was, why his parents were dead. I was inventing it but it felt like research. By the end of that train journey I knew it was going to be a seven-book series. I know that's extraordinarily arrogant for somebody who had never been published but that's how it came to me. It took me five years to plan the series out, to plot through each of the seven novels. I know what and who's coming when, and it can feel like greeting old friends. Professor Lupin, who appears in the third book, is one of my favourite characters. He's a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and disability. I almost always have complete histories for my characters. If I put all that detail in, each book would be the size of the Encyclopaedia Britannica, but I do have to be careful that I don't just assume that the reader knows as much as I do. Sirius Black is a good example. I have a whole childhood worked out for him. The readers don't need to know that but I do. I need to know much more than them because I'm the one moving the characters across the page. Potioncat: A whole childhood? We don't need to know? Oh, but we want to know! From sophierom at yahoo.com Wed May 4 12:50:14 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:50:14 -0000 Subject: Lupin - Potioncat's challenge ( Was: Cannons and teachers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128487 > Alla: > From the first minute Remus makes his students curious about the > lesson ( not scared, curious, do you hear me, Severus?) Sophierom: Good stuff here! It's very true that Snape and Lupin have different understandings of the classroom. Snape's Machiavellian view - the students are naturally bad and therefore it is better to be feared than loved - no doubt reflects his own experiences in life and in school. Indeed, thinking about the Pensieve scene in OotP, along with Snape's comment about weakness and wearing one's heart on one's sleeve, I'm not surprised that Snape would spend his first class intimidating his students in order to gain their obedience and respect. However, I do wonder how Lupin learned to teach the way he did. Snape's past may be mysterious, but Lupin's past is practically invisible. Sure, we know he was bitten by a werewolf at a young age; we also know that the other three Marauders accepted him and supported him during their school years together. I suppose this acceptance might be the main difference between his understanding of human behavior and Snape's (thus leading to their different classroom styles). Nonetheless, Lupin, too, has had the opportunity to become bitter, particularly with the supposed betrayal of Sirius and the hardships he's doubtless faced as a werewolf. But apparently, he hasn't become so bitter that it makes him a tyrant in the classroom (I'm not a believer of ESE!Lupin). I wonder why? I doubt we'll ever find out that much about Lupin's past; I hope I'm wrong. Another thought about Lupin's teaching style: do we ever see him teaching students other than Gryffindors? IIRC, the DADA classes are composed of single houses, so we only see him with the Gryffindors, correct? I wonder if Lupin takes a more Machiavellian approach with his Slytherin classes? Is there any possible canon evidence to suggest what Lupin might be like with a different audience? From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Wed May 4 12:51:44 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:51:44 -0000 Subject: "A Little Romance" -- Parvati?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128488 In HBP, I don't think Harry will have a serious girlfriend but may have a "little romance," to quote JKR ? maybe a crush like with Cho in OOTP. He might get distracted by a pretty face again. And I'm hope I'm wrong, but unfortunately it may be someone superficial like Parvati. JKR probably is not going to introduce a new possible girlfriend this late in the series, so it will probably be someone we already know. And I don't think she is going to make it any of the usual suspects ? Hermione, Ginny, Susan Bones, or Luna ? unless it is somehow tied into the main plot line since I don't think Harry will be getting into any "serious romance" but just a "little romance." Parvati has been in the background so far and dismissed by most of us as just a giggling girl who loves divination and pretty unicorns and whom Harry could not possibly be interested in. But think about it. She has been around since Book 1, so Harry knows her although we don't know much about her. She has been significant enough to him that JKR keeps mentioning her (apparently, there are two more Gryffindor girls in Harry's class that aren't significant for JKR even to mention their names). And we already know that Harry likes exotic beauties. And Dean said that Parvati and her twin Padma are "the best-looking girls in the year" (GOF, p. 411 US ed.). She seemed to want to go with Harry to the Yule Ball ? when they all first hear of the Ball, she nudges Lavender and they both turn to look at Harry. And she was happy and excited when Harry finally did ask her to go. Granted, their first date at the Ball was a disaster, and she wasn't speaking to Harry for some time after that. But it does introduce Parvati as a possible romantic interest. And she was upset which might indicate that she was actually interested in Harry and not just going to the Ball with one of the Tournament champions (although it be just the latter). It may also be significant in POA that she was worried about Harry when Trelawney predicted his death. Of course, it could just mean that she takes Trelawney's silly predictions seriously. In OOTP, when Harry yelled at Hermione, she says that she was just telling Lavender to stop criticizing him ? not the usual pairing of Lavender and Parvati. So Parvati may have been more supportive of Harry there, as she usually is against Snape and Umbridge. In particular, she joined the DA when many students were questioning Harry's sanity. In OOTP, during the OWLS exam, Harry was having a hard time concentrating and he was distracted by her long dark hair that fell below the back of her chair. "Once or twice he found himself staring at the tiny golden lights that glistened in its when she moved her head very slightly and had to give his own head a little shake to clear it" (OOTP, p. 725 US ed.). Of course, Harry was just being distracted, but it is interesting that JKR made Parvati the distraction. But still, I hope it doesn't happen. Parvati seems so superficial (e.g., oohing over the pretty unicorns)compared to the main girls in the books, and I like to think that Harry would go for someone more substantive. But Harry has been distracted by a pretty face once already. Richard Jones From feenyjam at msu.edu Wed May 4 12:42:04 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 12:42:04 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting (was: Hermione and Snape). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128489 a_svirn said: > > > And I don't buy the story she made up about her > > > boggart being McGonagall telling her she's failed everything. > > > For one thing, she couldn't have been THAT much worried > > > about her results, for another ? a blood-curdling cry is not a > > > likely reaction to such news. > > > She must have encountered something really horrid out > > > there and for some reasons felt compelled to conceal what it > > > was. I wonder what? Karen: > > I also think a hysterical scream is a very typical *Hermione* > > To Hermione, who values intellect and learning above any material > > thing, failure of exams would be a total catastrophe. RedLena said: > I agree with Karen... this reaction was completely in character for > Hermione. This is a girl who believes that school is more > important than life itself. > > "I hope you're pleased with yourselves. We could have been all > killed -- or worse, expelled." -Hermione, PS/SS > > The idea of failing everything would be a true horror to her. And > to have the news delivered by McGonagall, the head of > Hermione's house and an authority figure whom she respects, > would make the horrible news even worse. Greenfirespike says: I agree. Remember, the average age of kids in the class attempting to fight the boggart is 13. Most 13 year-old children's greatest fears are unwarranted and unexplainable. Ron is afraid, more than all else on earth, of spiders (although big ones at that) while Neville's greatest fear is his Grandmother yelling at him. Lupin even tells Harry he is mature for having 'fear' has his greatest fear. Even in the WW, kids are kids, and at 13, or so, they may not have reasonable fears. But, that doesn't make the fear any less frightening or real to that child. Furthermore, regardless of what form the boggart takes shape for Hermione, she remains unable to face her greatest fear. Greenfirespike (who, if forced to face a boggart at the age of 13, would face a sweet dark-haired classmate that is rudely, loudly, and publicly stomping my crush on her to death) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 4 15:25:57 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:25:57 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128490 > Geoff: > If a British person, not used to going to church or Christmas services, wanted to sing a carol or something "Christmassy", I don't think "God rest you merry, gentlemen" would be in the top ten. Pippin: Sirius's knowledge of carols needn't come from family or chapel: "...the suits of armour had all been bewitched to sing carols whenever anyone passed them. It was quite something to hear 'Oh Come, All Ye Faithful' sung by an empty helmet that only knew half the words. Several times, Filch the caretaker had to extract Peeves from inside the armour, where he had taken to hiding, filling the gaps in the songs with lyrics of his own invention, all of which were very rude." --GoF ch 22 It could be that the hippogriffs version is the only one Sirius knows. It seems like someone enchanted those helmets to sing, but now nobody knows or cares enough to renew the spell. This, I'm sure, is meant to echo the situation in RL Britain. It's probably difficult for Americans who haven't been to Britain to imagine how much Britain's religious past physically dominates its present. The biggest buildings in older American towns are usually banks or courthouses. Imagine every town square dominated by its large (and largely empty) parish church instead. A churchgoing Briton (like JKR) can't help but be aware that Christianity used to be far more important to her countrymen than it is now. Just IMO, I think JKR is addressing herself to readers who are nominally Christian but ethically humanist, trying to show that a problem with humanism is that it's too narrow -- because the concept of 'human' inevitably devolves to "people like us." Pippin From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Wed May 4 15:52:41 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:52:41 -0000 Subject: "A Little Romance" -- Parvati?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: > But still, I hope it doesn't happen. Parvati seems so superficial > (e.g., oohing over the pretty unicorns)compared to the main girls in > the books, and I like to think that Harry would go for someone more > substantive. But Harry has been distracted by a pretty face once > already. > > Richard Jones Max replies: In 'real life', it's possible that someone like Harry might very well be distracted by another 'pretty face'. But for the purposes of the story line I very much doubt that JKR will repeat that scenario a second time. What seems much more likely to me, is that by the end of HBP Harry will begin to form a romantic attachment with one of the lead young female characters. This relationship will then have time to be developed in Book 7. That's my thought anyway. Max From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed May 4 15:57:39 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 15:57:39 -0000 Subject: Snape- Universal Teacher - Universal Story In-Reply-To: <427919C8.19628.473D6D@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > > Well, first of all, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find other > people on this list who have read many British School stories, and > are at least as authoritative on them a I am. I've read a lot, and I > collect them, so I do have a good knowledge of them. > > To answer your question, it's not at all uncommon for a Snape like > teacher to appear in such books. I'm on teaching rounds at the > moment, so really don't have time to go into all this in as much > detail as I would like - but while it isn't by any means a universal > thing, it is certainly common. > > I am actually slowly writing a paper on this - "Hogwarts School of > Witchcraft and Wizardry in the Context of the British School Story" > (something of a companion to my "Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and > Wizardry in the Context of the British Public Schools") but it's not > likely to be ready until at least July or August. Finwitch: I wonder - could we enlarge the concept of "unliked/nasty/Snape-like teacher" to *any* school-story, not just the british? Actually, let's go even further - it seems to me that an authority- figure the hero(or main character) is more or less at odds with or at least needs to pass somehow is a very common element within stories. Of course, in a school-story this means a teacher (Snape for Harry). Within home, it's usually the adult 'relative' not of flesh&blood (Vernon for Harry -- and just think of all those evil stepmothers!). Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed May 4 16:24:37 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 16:24:37 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting (was: Hermione and Snape). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128493 > Greenfirespike says: > > I agree. Remember, the average age of kids in the class attempting > to fight the boggart is 13. Most 13 year-old children's greatest > fears are unwarranted and unexplainable. Ron is afraid, more than > all else on earth, of spiders (although big ones at that) while > Neville's greatest fear is his Grandmother yelling at him. Lupin > even tells Harry he is mature for having 'fear' has his greatest > fear. Finwitch: Well, considering that Ron was nearly eaten by Aragog's 'children' less than a year before the boggart, I wouldn't say his fear is all that unreasonable... (it's the little harmless spiders in fake- Moody's class that show the extent of his arachnophobia). Never the less, Ron *does* defeat his boggart, as does Harry. But Hermione-- I suppose her worst fear *was*, at least then, failure. You know, if Lupin thought Hermione's fear was Basilisk -- considering she nearly got killed by one in the previous year - I certainly don't blame him for not letting Hermione face the boggart... And Hermione's not only one failed with a boggart. Molly didn't defeat hers, either - poor Molly, seeing them dead all the time... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Wed May 4 16:38:05 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 16:38:05 -0000 Subject: "A Little Romance" -.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128494 > Max replies: > > In 'real life', it's possible that someone like Harry might very well > be distracted by another 'pretty face'. But for the purposes of the > story line I very much doubt that JKR will repeat that scenario a > second time. > > What seems much more likely to me, is that by the end of HBP Harry > will begin to form a romantic attachment with one of the lead young > female characters. This relationship will then have time to be > developed in Book 7. Finwitch: And the one who Harry's romantic female is-- well, NOT Cho - he's over her already. Luna Lovegood, perhaps? LOVE-GOOD... hmm-mm. it's even in her name! and it was Luna who could comfort Harry after the death of Sirius... Ron/Hermione says something about Luna and Harry gets VERY angry... It DOES have a definite possibility, doesn't it? Even if Harry just met her... well, those two ought to watch out for Nargles... Finwitch From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Wed May 4 17:08:33 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 17:08:33 -0000 Subject: Lupin - Potioncat's challenge ( Was: Cannons and teachers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128495 > Sophierom: > However, I do wonder how Lupin learned to teach the way he did. > Snape's past may be mysterious, but Lupin's past is practically > invisible. Sure, we know he was bitten by a werewolf at a young age; > we also know that the other three Marauders accepted him and supported > him during their school years together. I suppose this acceptance > might be the main difference between his understanding of human > behavior and Snape's (thus leading to their different classroom > styles). Nonetheless, Lupin, too, has had the opportunity to become > bitter, particularly with the supposed betrayal of Sirius and the > hardships he's doubtless faced as a werewolf. But apparently, he > hasn't become so bitter that it makes him a tyrant in the classroom > (I'm not a believer of ESE!Lupin). I wonder why? My take is that Lupin found acceptance at a young age, when your personality is being formed. He wasn't attacked like Snape was, for no other reason than just being there. He was accepted by the heros of the schools, which would give him some cache with the other students. His school years weren't tormented, while from what we've seen of Snape, not only did he have a bad home life but his school years were just as bad. No wonder he wants to control the students, he knows just how mean and spiteful they can be. Especially those Gryffindors. Casey From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed May 4 18:21:02 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 18:21:02 -0000 Subject: "A Little Romance" -Let's Be Friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128496 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "finwitch" wrote: > > Max replies: > > > > In 'real life', it's possible that someone like Harry might very > > well be distracted by another 'pretty face'. But for the purposes > > of the story line I very much doubt that JKR will repeat that > > scenario a second time. > > > > Finwitch: > > And the one who Harry's romantic female is-- well, NOT Cho - he's > over her already. Luna Lovegood, perhaps? LOVE-GOOD... and it was > Luna who could comfort Harry ... It DOES have a definite > possibility, doesn't it? ... > > Finwitch bboyminn: I'm thinking that relative to female relationships we will see a shift in Harry. Well, we'll see a shift in Ron too, but he will shift in a different direction. Up until GoF and to some extent in the last book, Harry has pretty much hung out with just the guys; Hermione being one of the guys. But now in the last book (OotP) new women have entered Harry's life; Tonks, Cho, and Luna among others. I say Cho because in her, Harry has had to face new aspects of himself. I think the next stage in Harry phycho-sexual development will be to learn that girls can be friends. We see the Luna's calm and slightly dotty but none the less deep and wise insights lend comfort to Harry. Just her being calm is enough for Harry to feel he can confide in her. Certainly every time he imagines himself giving Ron and/or Hermione bad news, he dreads the thought of how upset they will get, but that pressure is off with Luna. I think once Harry and Cho get past the simmering emotions surrounding their break up, they will find that they can be good comfortable friends. Cho is obviously someone Harry likes, and once she gets over Cedric, as I'm sure she now has, Cho is probably a very likable person. Hence, I see Harry and Cho developing a casual friendship. Tonks while not relationship material for Harry is none the less a girl, and one that he can probably easily relate to. She's fun and interesting, outspoken and very unconventional, certainly there is potential for friendship there. Also, there are all the other girls in the DA Club that Harry has worked with, and that I believe he will work even closer with in the next two books. The point is that Harry will make the transition from dreading the thought of talking to a girl, and dreading the awkwardness of being around them, to expanding his knowledge and experience with them on a casual basis which in turn will develop an overal comfort in being around them. This comfort will give him the confidence to develop later deeper relationships. As a side note: the change I see in Ron is that, to some extent, he becomes a horn-dog; that is, he fully discovers girls. I further suspect that this sudden interest in girls will be fueled by the return of Viktor. I don't see Viktor and Hermione developing a deep romantic relationship, but they obviously like each other and enjoy each other's company which will lead to them spending time and do things together, which will drive Ron straight up the wall. At some point, this will force Ron to confront and acknowledge his feeling for Hermione. So, I guess the short version is that I see Harry becoming friends with several girls which allows him to develop an easy confidence which in turn will lead him to someone he can get romantically close to in much less stressful way. Can't prove it, but that's what I thing ...at least what I think /today/. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed May 4 18:43:10 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 18:43:10 -0000 Subject: Christianity in HP / Snape-like teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128497 Geoff Bannister wrote: > I think, in deference to our elves, I must stop and say no more here. Agreed. I just want to point out that I did not use the words "Jews and their affairs" disparagingly. I have a very healthy respect for all things Jewish. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed May 4 19:09:55 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:09:55 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting (was: Hermione and Snape). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128498 > > Finwitch wrote: > > Well, considering that Ron was nearly eaten by Aragog's 'children' > less than a year before the boggart, I wouldn't say his fear is all > that unreasonable... (it's the little harmless spiders in fake- > Moody's class that show the extent of his arachnophobia). Never the > less, Ron *does* defeat his boggart, as does Harry. > > But Hermione-- I suppose her worst fear *was*, at least then, > failure. a_svirn: You know, if Lupin thought Hermione's fear was Basilisk -- > considering she nearly got killed by one in the previous year - I > certainly don't blame him for not letting Hermione face the boggart... a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed May 4 19:16:28 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:16:28 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting (was: Hermione and Snape). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128499 a_svirn: Ooops sorry, I accidentally posted an empty letter. > Finwitch wrote: > > Well, considering that Ron was nearly eaten by Aragog's 'children' > less than a year before the boggart, I wouldn't say his fear is all > that unreasonable... (it's the little harmless spiders in fake- > Moody's class that show the extent of his arachnophobia). Never the > less, Ron *does* defeat his boggart, as does Harry. > > But Hermione-- I suppose her worst fear *was*, at least then, > failure. a_svirn: Suppose you get the letter "Dear Finwitch, I regret to inform you that your application for [fill the blank] has been declined. The competition this year was especially high etc. etc. May I take this opportunity to wish you success in the future etc., etc " What would be your reaction? Or even what would it have been at 13? You may have sulked, cried, or even fainted, but screamed? And Hermione "burst out again, screaming". Then she stuttered and gasped. I still maintain that such reaction is unlikely. Finwitch: You know, if Lupin thought Hermione's fear was Basilisk -- > considering she nearly got killed by one in the previous year - I > certainly don't blame him for not letting Hermione face the boggart... > a_svirn: Yes, I think you are right, that might have been the reason. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed May 4 19:46:20 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:46:20 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > > I'd say he was singing a traditional British Christmas Carol. I'm not > British, I'm not a Christian and even I know that song. The first time > I heard it was on a British Christmas TV film when I was a child. > Maybe someone British can shed light on this, but I think it would be > near impossible to be raised in Britain and not know it and other > traditonals. Tonks: Sirius' song about the Hippogriffs for those here who may not know is: "God rest ye merry gentlemen let nothing you dismay, remember Christ our savior was born on Christmas day, to save us all from Satan's power when we had gone astray " Like the pagans on this list that are amazed at how far the Christians will stretch things to see so many *Christian* symbols in HP, I am also amazed at the lengths folks will go to so as to *not* see the Christian references in HP. Do you really think that all of these little coincidences that are in the book are just that? JKR writes like a mystery author, like Dorothy Sayers some say. Don't you think that maybe, just maybe there really is a message there?? How many coincidences can there be in one series before *if it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, walks like a duck* just maybe Tonks_op From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 4 21:01:56 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:01:56 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128501 >>Karen: >I don't think that Hogwarts is a 'Christian school' however, as we would have had to have had mention of chapel somewere along the lines if that was the case.< Betsy: I don't think Hogwarts is a Christian school either, in that I don't think it was founded to teach future members of the clergy. However, I am pretty sure that since is was founded in a Christian country, its founders and its students were all Christians, so there was probably a chapel and regular services, at that time, to meet their needs. >>Gerry: >I'd say he was singing a traditional British Christmas Carol. I'm not British, I'm not a Christian and even I know that song. The first time I heard it was on a British Christmas TV film when I was a child. Maybe someone British can shed light on this, but I think it would be near impossible to be raised in Britain and not know it and other traditonals.< Betsy: This actually makes my point. Just as Britain is (or was) predominantly Christian, the WW is (or was) predominantly Christian. Sirius heard the Christmas carols around. Maybe not at his house, which didn't seem all that conducive to joyous singing, but certainly at Christmas parties his family attended, more than likely at James' house, and as Pippin pointed out at Hogwarts. I'm not saying that the Black family went to church for anything other than weddings, christenings, and funerals. But I am saying that for all intents and purposes, Sirius, like his family were Christian, probably Anglican. >>Geoff: Re Harry's background, I would go so far as to suggest that it was Anglican (Church of England). I somehow doubt that they were Catholic. Betsy: Karen pointed out that I'd gotten the history wrong, but there must have been *some* sort of enforced movement away from Catholisism in England. I'm currently reading the Patrick O'Brian books which take place in the British Navy of Nelson's era and IIRC there was an oath the officers had to take that included repudiating papistry. I would imagine that the old pure-blood families of Britian would have gone with that particular flow. Especially if there was money to be gained. Betsy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 5 02:12:25 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 02:12:25 -0000 Subject: Lupin - Potioncat's challenge ( Was: Cannons and teachers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128502 Alla: >From the first minute Remus makes his students curious about the lesson ( not scared, curious, do you hear me, Severus?) Sophierom: However, I do wonder how Lupin learned to teach the way he did. Snape's past may be mysterious, but Lupin's past is practically invisible. Sure, we know he was bitten by a werewolf at a young age; we also know that the other three Marauders accepted him and supported him during their school years together. I suppose this acceptance might be the main difference between his understanding of human behavior and Snape's (thus leading to their different classroom styles). Nonetheless, Lupin, too, has had the opportunity to become bitter, particularly with the supposed betrayal of Sirius and the hardships he's doubtless faced as a werewolf. But apparently, he hasn't become so bitter that it makes him a tyrant in the classroom (I'm not a believer of ESE!Lupin). I wonder why? I doubt we'll ever find out that much about Lupin's past; I hope I'm wrong. Alla: I don't know. I mean, I am sure that being accepted by Marauders helped Remus a lot, but I would not say that Remus had the easiest life regardless of that fact. I think he had plenty of possibilities to become bitter and did not. Don't forget that prior to being accepted to Hogwarts Lupin faced very real possibility to be denied Hogwarts education, period. If Dumbledore would not become a Headmaster, that is exactly what would have happened, right? Besides, prior to Marauders figuring out who he was, Remus faced his transformations all alone and losing his mind in the meanwhile. His hair is grey when he is only in his midthirties after all. I don't know why he did not become the bitter tyrant in the classroom like Snape did ( just my own personal opinion of Snape teaching, of course), I think that he is a great example of how damaged person does not make others miserable because of his own pain, but helps children instead. Again, just me. I am wondering whether he indeed studied teaching or not. I remember during one of the debates about education it was said that " master- apprentice" system could be the primary way to get professional education in WW. Even if Lupin studied DADA with someone, for some reason I am not sure whether he apprenticed with a teacher or not. What do you think? I am still thinking that we will learn about Remus past more, because those twelve missing years of his life are a mystery. Sophierom: Is there any possible canon evidence to suggest what Lupin might be like with a different audience? Alla: I honestly don't remember ever seeing Lupin teaching Slytherins. Are you saying that he could have been Snape-like teacher with Slyths? It is just my speculation based on my general opinion of Lupin, but I am having trouble seeing it. Just my opinion of course, Alla From aggiescatz at aol.com Wed May 4 20:17:55 2005 From: aggiescatz at aol.com (kittykataddict) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 20:17:55 -0000 Subject: Oh yeah, its the Dementor-Veiled-Gateway-Connection-Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128503 Re the context of The Veil in the plot-line - just noticed in my fifth consecutive re-read of all 5 books (no obsessive tendencies here...) At the Christmas dinner in POA we are apparently meant to regard Trelawney's rantings about 13 dining together and "the first to rise..." as "tripe". Ron and Harry get up together, we don't know which one first. Yet at Harry's first meal at 12 Grimmauld Place in OOP, 13 sit down to dine and Sirius is first to rise: "Sirius started to rise from his chair. 'Molly, you're not the only person at this table who cares about Harry,' said Lupin sharply. 'Sirius, sit down.'" One might argue that Molly went to fetch rhubbarb crumble halfway through the meal, but the wording here was "got to her feet" and it was before the meal was over. When Harry thinks he hears voices from behind the veil, he seems to recognise 2 people - Sirius (and I still can't bear to repeat what happened to him cause it would make it too real...) and Ron. Are the voices those of loved ones who are to die in the relatively near future? There must also be some significance to the fact that Luna hears voices, Ginny and Neville also appear transfixed but Ron and Hermione hear nothing, though Hermione's acute instinct for danger is alerted. I've now switched to reading Stephen King's Salem's Lot for some light relief... Therese From hambtty at triad.rr.com Wed May 4 21:12:35 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:12:35 -0000 Subject: Why didn't LV die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128504 Why didn't LV die? I've been pondering this every since JKR told us that is the question we should be asking. And she told us that Harry learned something in Chamber of Secrets that will be useful to him. So here goes: He learned that seeing the eyes of a basilisk in a reflection can save you from the full force of a curse/spell. Mirrors and reflections play a huge role in these books. And JKR said that the director of POA put some things in that foreshadow things that will happen in Books 6 & 7. There were a least two reflection scenes. I think that Lily was able to summon help for herself through magic but chose to use her power to summon protection for Harry instead thus, sacrificing herself. She used some type of mirror to work a charm whereby LV's curse did not hit Harry but rebounded back onto LV. LV did not die because it was reflected and he was not petrified because he was using a potion (possibly made with mandrake roots). She thought LV would be petrified and therefore found by the OP and his reign of terror would end. Sacrificing herself Lily created a long lasting protection that has kept Harry safe at his aunt's home all these years. But what saved both Harry and LV was a mirror. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed May 4 21:41:51 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 21:41:51 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128505 Tonks: > Like the pagans on this list that are amazed at how far the > Christians will stretch things to see so many *Christian* symbols in > HP, I am also amazed at the lengths folks will go to so as to *not* > see the Christian references in HP. Do you really think that all of > these little coincidences that are in the book are just that? JKR > writes like a mystery author, like Dorothy Sayers some say. Don't > you think that maybe, just maybe there really is a message there?? > How many coincidences can there be in one series before *if it > quacks like a duck, looks like a duck, walks like a duck* just > maybe Gerry: I think there are lots of messages there, only I don't think the messages are specifically Christian. Christianity in many different forms has been part of the western culture for hundreds of years. I think a writer has to make a conscious effort to take out all christian references, because a lot of them are cultural. JKR uses a lot of symbols and ideas. She obviously reads a lot, and is very familiar with occult ideas. That does not make her a believer in the occult. And that an author is a Christian does not mean her purpose in writing is to bring some kind of holy message to people. She deals with very profound and interesting human themes, which you find throughout human history. Rememption is not something specific to christianity. Why not: because making mistakes, doing wrong and how to go from there is not something that happens exclusively to christians. But believing a christmas carol is a sign of some deep significant christian message is i.m.h.o. just as wrong as believing she is pagan because people have wands that fit the 'celtic' tree calender or because of all the other references to occult knowledge and magic. Analyzing literature is for a huge part what we as readers want to find. It is just as easy to make a case for the classic hero story you find in mythologies throughout the world (Joseph Cambell anybody?). Gerry From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 5 01:16:43 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 02:16:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050505011643.73208.qmail@web26308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128506 Geoff: If a British person, not used to going to church or Christmas services, wanted to sing a carol or something "Christmassy", I don't think "God rest you merry, gentlemen" would be in the top ten. It's one of the lesser used carols. More likely choices would possibly include "Silent Night", "Hark the Herald Angels Sing", "O little Town of Bethlehem" and "Once in Royal Dvaid's City" or even songs like "Good King Wenceslas" or "Jingle Bells". If this was Sirius' choice [and not JKR's :-)], I'd think he had a good repertoire of carols from which to draw. Hells: I am British. I am of no religion and my family aren't religious in any way. I know "God rest ye merry gentleman" as it is very well known over here. It is not a lesser known carol, you would be hard pushed to find a single person over 5 who wasn't familiar with it. You do not need to be religious to know christmas carols. Most people have heard them on television, learned to play instruments with them, sang them in school choirs and plays, heard them in every shop at christmas time etc. I can understand many of the arguments seeking Christianity in Harry Potter, but I'm afraid this is the weakest one I've heard. I think JKR was illustrating Sirius' good mood and used a carol that she could easily change the words to which would be recognised by all the readers. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - want a free & easy way to contact your friends online? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ewdotson01 at yahoo.com Wed May 4 19:26:44 2005 From: ewdotson01 at yahoo.com (ewdotson01) Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:26:44 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128507 Betsy: > > There's nothing in canon that suggests that being a witch or wizard > would go against a monotheistic faith. Magic is presented in an > almost scientific manner. No gods or goddesses are called down. > Actually, there's very little chanting at all. You call out the > *name* of the spell, but you don't call on an outside power. > Astrology and tea-leaf reading, etc., are treated as a bit of a joke > and not really real, and even the Centaurs seem to be doing > something more akin to chaos theory than out and out star-reading. > Compare that to the way magic is portrayed in "Buffy the Vampire > Slayer" where Willow was *constantly* calling on various gods and > goddesses and you can see that there's nothing really there, in the > Harry Potter world, to contradict a Christian witch or wizards faith > (or a Jewish or Muslim, for that matter). Absolutely, and I think it's very important to keep in mind that Hogwarts has been actively recruiting muggle-born wizards for a millenium now. While it may certainly be true that Britain is a largely secular country these days, that most certainly would NOT have been true 500 years ago. Telling Farmer John that his son Timmy was a wizard would have been hard enough without mandating that he drop his faith too. All things considered, I would expect that they would have had to have made it very clear when recruiting muggle-born wizards that there was no inherent conflict between being a wizard a being a Christian. To be honest, given the steady influx of population from the non-magical world into the magical world, I would expect the magical world to be fairly comparable culturally to the non-magical world over time. (I would expect there to be a certain lag in the magical world as change would happen on a somewhat generational level.) "ewdotson01" From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 5 03:56:29 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Wed, 4 May 2005 20:56:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Oh yeah, its the Dementor-Veiled-Gateway-Connection-Theory In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050505035629.95470.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128508 kittykataddict wrote:When Harry thinks he hears voices from behind the veil, he seems to recognise 2 people - Sirius (and I still can't bear to repeat what happened to him cause it would make it too real...) and Ron. Are the voices those of loved ones who are to die in the relatively near future? When did he think he heard Sirius and Ron. I know he heard "voices" but I don't recall anyone specific. Can you provide the text evidence for that please. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu May 5 04:52:46 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (elady25) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 04:52:46 -0000 Subject: Letter to Victor (was Re: "A Little Romance" -Let's Be Friends) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128509 imamommy: shipping disclaimer, evidence for H/H --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: snip > > Up until GoF and to some extent in the last book, Harry has pretty > much hung out with just the guys; Hermione being one of the guys. snip imamommy: That's what Harry thinks, isn't it? So far, he's seen her as one of the guys. But she's already exclaimed that she is a girl (to Ron, in GoF), and her off-page relationship with Ginny would suggest to me that she is quite developed as a girl. I was rereading OOP last night, and I had a thought. A lot of R/H shippers use her looong letter to Victor as a sign that she is either indifferent to Ron's crush, or trying to make him jealous, or some such thing. But what struck me last night was the timing of her writing the letter. The whole term, she spends her nights either doing homework or knitting elf hats. Just a couple of pages before the common room scene where she is writing to Victor, she laments that she didn't have time to make more hats, and so many elves will have to stay over Christmas. But then, the night before the last day of the term, instead of knitting hats, she's writing out the rough draft of HBP to Victor. Why not save the letter until she's on her ski trip? Well, my completely biased, shippy opinion is not that it had anything to do with Ron, but perhaps with Harry. Hermione and Ron know that Harry and Cho hung back after the DA meeting, and Hermione pointedly asks him "Did you kiss?" Much has been made by shippers on both sides of the dialog, but I find that it may be telling that when Hermione returned form DA that night, instead of homework or elf hats, she turned her attention to Victor. I would suggest a (possibly subconscious) reaction to the knowledge or suspicion of what Harry was doing with Cho. I would further suggest that writing to Victor may have been something that Hermione had put off, but feeling vulnerable decided to communicate with the one boy who has treated her with the proper romantic courtesies. I really wish I was a fly on the wall during Hermione and Ginny's private conversations. imamommy From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 5 06:54:22 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 06:54:22 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: <20050505011643.73208.qmail@web26308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, hells456 wrote: Hells: > I know "God rest ye merry gentleman" as it is very well known over here. It is not a lesser known carol, you would be hard pushed to find a single person over 5 who wasn't familiar with it. You do not need to be religious to know christmas carols. Most people have heard them on television, learned to play instruments with them, sang them in school choirs and plays, heard them in every shop at christmas time etc. Geoff: I think you misread what I wrote. I didn't say that Sirius' choice, "God rest ye merry, gentlemen", was a lesser known carol over here in the UK, I said it was lesser /used/. Having been a Christian for over 40 years, I would expect from experience that, if you asked an average person to name - or better sing - a Christmas carol, one of the batch I named would be likely to predominate. Hells: > I can understand many of the arguments seeking Christianity in Harry Potter, but I'm afraid this is the weakest one I've heard. I think JKR was illustrating Sirius' good mood and used a carol that she could easily change the words to which would be recognised by all the readers. Geoff: I think this does underline the point that, sadly, the majority of British folk are nominally Christian but, interestingly, if you challenge many people, they will become very cross if you suggest that they are /not/ Christian. Gerry made the point: "I think a writer has to make a conscious effort to take out all christian references, because a lot of them are cultural. JKR uses a lot of symbols and ideas. She obviously reads a lot, and is very familiar with occult ideas. That does not make her a believer in the occult. And that an author is a Christian does not mean her purpose in writing is to bring some kind of holy message to people. " Geoff: I think the whole point of them being cultural impinges on things like writing. I doubt whether she would attempt to remove Christian references; it would leave something of a void in her spproach. I am not unfamiliar with occult ideas - I read up quite a bit in my teens - but I find that my belief has an underlying effect on the way I view events and I think this is true of Jo Rowling's approach to the books. There are ideas which come from other sources but there are often conclusions drawn - sometimes by Dumbledore fo Harry's benefit - which probably come from her Chrsitian background both personally and culturally. From marc at jadebox.com Wed May 4 23:21:56 2005 From: marc at jadebox.com (Marc Harry) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 00:21:56 +0100 Subject: boggart-fighting In-Reply-To: <1115206621.9201.20998.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <200505042320.j44NKM8g013555@server1.rogersmithsoftware.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128511 RedLena: >>> The idea of failing everything would be a true horror to her. And to have the news delivered by McGonagall, the head of Hermione's house and an authority figure whom she respects, would make the horrible news even worse. <<< And WHAT, exactly, is wrong with that? As a teacher with 18 years experience I'd DIE for a single pupil with such an attitude! Hermione is EXACTLY what is WRONG with pupils in 2005. There are none!!!! There IS nothing wrong with wanting to always do your best. It is the anti-BOFF syndrome which currently pollutes British education - if not world-wide. Marc From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Thu May 5 07:53:51 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 07:53:51 -0000 Subject: "A Little Romance" -.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128512 > Finwitch: > > And the one who Harry's romantic female is-- well, NOT Cho - he's over > her already. Luna Lovegood, perhaps? LOVE-GOOD... hmm-mm. it's even in > her name! and it was Luna who could comfort Harry after the death of > Sirius... Ron/Hermione says something about Luna and Harry gets VERY > angry... It DOES have a definite possibility, doesn't it? Even if Harry > just met her... well, those two ought to watch out for Nargles... > > Finwitch John: In accord with all this business about the school houses (re)uniting I'd like to see what others think of the likelihood of a romantic, inter-house, liaison developing between Harry and Susan Bones. From what we've seen (very little, I admit) she seems a fairly nice, sensible young lass; emotionally stable; the type of girl the poor lad is in need of at this present time. Indeed, the Cho fiasco seems to have demonstrated fairly forcefully that Harry will find his true love in someone a little less temperamental then Chang. (Of course, our young hero might just end up choosing to reject the sweet embrace of young love altogether.) As an aside, could not Susan, regardless of her Harry-ship-ability, act as a useful tool for the trio, possessed as she may be of some rather juicy scoops from within the ministry? Particularly if her aunt is elected MoM following Fudge's likely abdication and/or assassination, she could well prove a veritable mine of information. Just some thoughts. John. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu May 5 09:51:17 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 09:51:17 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way (was: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128513 Geoff: > I think you misread what I wrote. I didn't say that Sirius' > choice, "God rest ye merry, gentlemen", was a lesser known carol > over here in the UK, I said it was lesser /used/. Having been a > Christian for over 40 years, I would expect from experience that, > if you asked an average person to name - or better sing - a > Christmas carol, one of the batch I named would be likely to > predominate. Why? It is one of my favourite Christmas carols, because of the beautiful melody. No way Jingle Bells or any of the others you name comes even close. I think the most likely explanation is that JKR just put a song in she herself likes. Geoff: > I think the whole point of them being cultural impinges on things > like writing. I doubt whether she would attempt to remove > Christian references; it would leave something of a void in her > spproach. I am not unfamiliar with occult ideas - I read up quite > a bit in my teens - but I find that my belief has an underlying > effect on the way I view events and I think this is true of Jo > Rowling's approach to the books. There are ideas which come from > other sources but there are often conclusions drawn - sometimes by > Dumbledore fo Harry's benefit - which probably come from her > Chrsitian background both personally and culturally. Yes of course. That was not the point I'm making. You will find the same if you read Dickens for example. My point is that she is not writing a specifically christian tale. And that lots of themes people in this culture think are christian, are in fact universal themes, dealt with in all religions (right versus wrong, crime, punishment and regret, redemption, morality versus rules etc.) Gerry From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu May 5 10:49:15 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 10:49:15 -0000 Subject: Lupin - Potioncat's challenge ( Was: Cannons and teachers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128514 Sophierom: Is there any possible canon evidence to suggest what Lupin might be like with a different audience? Alla: I honestly don't remember ever seeing Lupin teaching Slytherins. Are you saying that he could have been Snape-like teacher with Slyths? It is just my speculation based on my general opinion of Lupin, but I am having trouble seeing it. Just my opinion of course, Sophierom responding: I agree that Lupin probably wouldn't be "Snape-like" with the Slytherins, but I also wonder if he would have been as informal and friendly with the other houses, most particularly Slytherin. If he does maintain the same teaching style for all four houses, he might not be nearly successful with his other students. I could see his informal, hands-on style appealing to the Hufflepuffs (what little we know of them) as well as the Gryffindors, but I would think that the Ravenclaws and the Slytherins would tend to appreciate a more formal, assertive authority figure. If Remus has remained true to his Marauder personality from Hogwarts, he's not necessarily a very assertive figure, especially in the face of more dominant personalities (such as James and Sirius). However, I think we have clues from canon that he's been able to learn how to be assertive in his own way. Alla's discussion of how he handled Snape's bullying of Neville is a good example. There's also the way he managed to hold back Sirius (just barely) in the Shrieking Shack. This is all speculation, of course, but my guess is that Lupin either had to put on a different "face" in front of the other houses (especially Slytherin) or that he wasn't nearly as successful an instructor with them as he was with Neville, Harry & Co. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 5 11:03:28 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 11:03:28 -0000 Subject: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way (was: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > Geoff: > > I think you misread what I wrote. I didn't say that Sirius' > > choice, "God rest ye merry, gentlemen", was a lesser known carol > > over here in the UK, I said it was lesser /used/. Having been a > > Christian for over 40 years, I would expect from experience that, > > if you asked an average person to name - or better sing - a > > Christmas carol, one of the batch I named would be likely to > > predominate. Gerry: > Why? It is one of my favourite Christmas carols, because of the > beautiful melody. No way Jingle Bells or any of the others you name > comes even close. I think the most likely explanation is that JKR > just put a song in she herself likes. Geoff: I'm not arguing with the fact that it's one of your and Sirius' favourites. I'm merely saying that it is used less frequently than some of the others. That in no way detracts from its message and the satisfaction it gives to people. I notice that you only quoted Jingle Bells which I listed as a "song" rather than a carol. I quoted some carols which many folk would know listening perhaps to TV transmissions at Christmas time and I (personally) think that "O little town of Bethlehem" is one of the best in telling the story. But, we all have our own choices and they may not win the all-time best carol contest. What colour would you like your Weasley jumper to be knitted in? :-) From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 5 11:44:33 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:44:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Christians in HP - in a purely historical way(was:Re: Christianity in HP) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050505114433.17490.qmail@web26302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128516 Geoff: I think you misread what I wrote. I didn't say that Sirius' choice, "God rest ye merry, gentlemen", was a lesser known carol over here in the UK, I said it was lesser /used/. Having been a Christian for over 40 years, I would expect from experience that, if you asked an average person to name - or better sing - a Christmas carol, one of the batch I named would be likely to predominate. Hells: I disagree. I think the difference here is that you are looking at carols from a christian perspective, while I am looking at them from a popular culture perspective. You are probably correct in your view of carol usage in church services (if I'm getting your meaning right), but I rarely hear, if ever, most of the other carols you mentioned in day to day life around christmas time. "Hark the Herald Angels Sing", "O little Town of Bethlehem" and "Once in Royal Dvaid's City" the last one I don't know at all. Geoff: I think this does underline the point that, sadly, the majority of British folk are nominally Christian but, interestingly, if you challenge many people, they will become very cross if you suggest that they are /not/ Christian. Hells: This has not been my experience. The vast majority of people I know consider religion to be irrelevant, some have even been offended that they were forced to pick a religion in various forms. Most of these people were christened, but do not consider themselves christian. I see the Harry Potter books as moral books, in the sense that they show good and evil and emphasize love, choosing to be a good person, courage and standing up to do the right thing. At the end of the day many parallels can be made with religious texts, but this is really irrelevant. I'm sure that some of the students at Hogwarts are from a religious background, and that the school caters for them, but this is needless information that doesn't need to be in the books. I took the christian references to be Dumbledore = all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful God, Harry = Christ the saviour who will sacrifice himself or part of himself to save wizardkind (hopefully to be reborn) and possibly Fawkes = the Holy Spirit, although I know nothing about the Holy Spirit except the name. Satan = Voldemort, and I hate to think who will be Judas... I just think that with references this big, we do not need to search for hidden meaning in Sirius's carol singing. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - want a free & easy way to contact your friends online? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 5 11:51:39 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 12:51:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why didn't LV die? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050505115139.276.qmail@web26306.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128517 "B.G." wrote: (snipped) Why didn't LV die? She used some type of mirror to work a charm whereby LV's curse did not hit Harry but rebounded back onto LV. LV did not die because it was reflected and he was not petrified because he was using a potion (possibly made with mandrake roots). Hells: Very interesting theory, but if the curse was reflected away from Harry where did the scar come from? The curse would surely have to hit him to leave a mark, I always thought it was some kind of exit wound. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - want a free & easy way to contact your friends online? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From feenyjam at msu.edu Thu May 5 12:31:43 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 12:31:43 -0000 Subject: Why didn't LV die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128518 hambtty said: > Why didn't LV die? I've been pondering this every since JKR told us > that is the question we should be asking. And she told us that > Harry learned something in Chamber of Secrets that will be useful to > him. So here goes: > > He learned that seeing the eyes of a basilisk in a reflection can > save you from the full force of a curse/spell. Mirrors and > reflections play a huge role in these books. And JKR said that the > director of POA put some things in that foreshadow things that will > happen in Books 6 & 7. There were a least two reflection scenes. > > I think that Lily was able to summon help for herself through magic > but chose to use her power to summon protection for Harry instead > thus, sacrificing herself. She used some type of mirror to work a > charm whereby LV's curse did not hit Harry but rebounded back onto > LV. LV did not die because it was reflected and he was not > petrified because he was using a potion (possibly made with mandrake > roots). She thought LV would be petrified and therefore found by > the OP and his reign of terror would end. Sacrificing herself Lily > created a long lasting protection that has kept Harry safe at his > aunt's home all these years. But what saved both Harry and LV was a > mirror. Greenfirespike says: I really like your idea. Mirrors have always played an important part of the series. I consider the Mirror of Erised as the first great and powerful magical item Harry really discovers in the WW. Plus, in OotP Harry gets a two-way mirror and we still don't know how this magical item will play in the series. Maybe an alternate idea based on your theory is that LV directed his AK at Harry, but didn't realize he was only seeing baby!Harry's reflection. The curse rebounds it two parts, one part back upon LV, the other carrying some of LV's magical powers and a scar. Greenfirespike (who knows this idea has some problems with it) From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Thu May 5 13:24:56 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:24:56 -0000 Subject: I saw (more than) three ships ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128519 Some fascinating discussions recently, on Christmas as well as Harry's putative love life... . Someoneofsomeplace, for instance, suggests that Susan Bones would be a good choice for Harry, in her capacity as a pleasant, sensible girl. True, but ... why do I not hear gypsy violins? In RL, wouldn't he be more likely to be attracted to someone dressed in black with multiple body piercings and a sulky expression, especially if she found him devastatingly attractive and a good kisser? Not as a partner for life, but in his current mood and situation I think this sort of chick would cheer him up no end, beside opening up lots of storyline possibilities! Which a romantic entanglement with Hermione or Ginny - even with Luna - would not; they're already familiar parts of the story. I've been following the Christmas/Christian thread with interest, too. No snips, I promise ... Britain is a multicultural country. The more versions of religion - the more available gods, if you like - there are, the more likely people are to treat them all pretty much the same. With respect, mostly, but without any sense of loss or exclusion from the religious experience, which the vast majority of them do not share. And the WW is a very British one. (My cousins for instance used to go carol-singing every Christmas as young men and never believed a word of what they sang; just enjoyed the experience and turned their tips into beer afterwards.) It seems to me, and this is pretty vague because I've never been there, that the USA is a much more religion-minded place - there is still social pressure on people to go to church, and it is assumed that normal, decent people will always choose to do so. (It has often been suggested that nobody with a naturalistic turn of mind could succeed in American politics.) Am I right? And does this explain the sense of bewilderment that I sometimes detect when American posters seem to long for evidence of Christian beliefs in the WW? Not in the minds of the author or her readers, but in the characters themselves? (As a matter of interest, we are all agreed about the Christian message in CS Lewis and Tolkien, and nobody seems to mind that no churches are attended or carols carolled in Narnia and Middle Earth. Or do they?) British schools all have Easter and Christmas breaks, called by those names and enjoyed by one and all - Hindu, Buddhist, Moslem and Jew - but there is no suggestion that one needs to believe in the message of Easter and Christmas in order to earn those holidays! Why should Hogwarts be different? Clearly it welcomes pupils of Hindu origin (the Patils), possibly Buddhists (though Cho could be anything or nothing, of course), and where I live young Anthony Goldstein's name would suggest he's Jewish, though perhaps he isn't! Nice and blurry, and nobody gets classified by race, religion or culture except by those obsessed with the purity of their own blood - and even they would presumably accept a pureblood Afghan, Brazilian, Chinook ... right as far as Zimbabwean wizard or witch into their homes without batting an eyelash. Which is why Ginny is such a refreshing character - she falls happily for a boy who's not only muggle-born (to her knowledge) but black, and Ron's reaction is exactly what it would have been whoever she fell for! She's probably ahead of many RL Brits, alas, but the times they are a-changing. I'd really be interested in any feedback on this, assuming the elves let it through of course! From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 5 13:31:02 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:31:02 -0000 Subject: boggart-fighting In-Reply-To: <200505042320.j44NKM8g013555@server1.rogersmithsoftware.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marc Harry" wrote: > RedLena: > >>> The idea of failing everything would be a true horror > to her. And to have the news delivered by McGonagall, the > head of Hermione's house and an authority figure whom she > respects, would make the horrible news even worse. <<< > > > And WHAT, exactly, is wrong with that? As a teacher with 18 years > experience I'd DIE for a single pupil with such an attitude! > > Hermione is EXACTLY what is WRONG with pupils in 2005. There are none!!!! > > There IS nothing wrong with wanting to always do your best. It is > the anti-BOFF syndrome which currently pollutes British education - > if not world-wide. > > Marc Karen: I think you must have mis-read the thread as no one is saying anything is wrong with that at all. The discussion was about whether we think Hermione is telling the truth that her boggart was McGonagall telling her she'd failed her exams, or whether we think that she was concealing the true nature of her boggart which was something else entirely. The latter option was offered on the basis that Hermione's reaction was too extreme for news of failed exams, some others of us thought that her reaction was not extreme based on Hernione's love of learning and RedLena was backing up that opinion with the above explaination. Karen From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 5 13:44:36 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 13:44:36 -0000 Subject: Resources & Re: Lupin - Potioncat's challenge ( Was: Cannons and teachers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128521 > Sophierom responding: > > I agree that Lupin probably wouldn't be "Snape-like" with the > Slytherins, but I also wonder if he would have been as informal and > friendly with the other houses, most particularly Slytherin. If he > does maintain the same teaching style for all four houses, he might > not be nearly successful with his other students. However, I > think we have clues from canon that he's been able to learn how to be > assertive in his own way. Potioncat: I found a nice resource by going to HPFGU Portkey, then to Resources then to a site about characters. It's a site that lists every character and the chapters where that character can be found. Here's the link: http://www.geocities.com/willowsevern/ The resources site itself has quite a bit to look through. Back to this thread, using the above link, I found this about Lupin (which I also checked in my book): PoA chapter 8: In no time at all Defense Against the Dark Arts became most people's favorite class. Only Draco Malfoy and his gang of Slytherins had anything bad to say about Professor Lupin. "Look at the state of his robes," Malfoy would say in a loud whisper as Professor Lupin passed. "He dresses like our old house-elf." But no else cared that Professor Lupin's robes were patched and frayed. His next few lessons were as interesting as the first. So, is that only Draco's gang or all Slytherins? And at that, the complaint is his frayed robes. I wonder if it's Snape's dislike of Lupin that Draco has picked up on, or if Lucius has said something. Draco showed comtempt for Lupin before the Feast the first day. From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Thu May 5 16:35:49 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 16:35:49 -0000 Subject: Letter to Victor (was Re: "A Little Romance" -Let's Be Friends) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128522 > I would suggest a (possibly subconscious) reaction to the knowledge or > suspicion of what Harry was doing with Cho. I would further suggest > that writing to Victor may have been something that Hermione had put > off, but feeling vulnerable decided to communicate with the one boy > who has treated her with the proper romantic courtesies. > > I really wish I was a fly on the wall during Hermione and Ginny's > private conversations. > > imamommy My take was that she thought that, with Harry having a girlfriend, it was high time that Ron woke up and smelled the coffee. She started writing the letter in an effort to make him think of her as someone others would be attracted to. Especially if that someone is a famous quidditch star that the one you have a crush on respected. Casey, who's a R/H shipper but not really all that involved in it, it's just what she's seen in the books from the very earliest chapters. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 5 17:29:59 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 17:29:59 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128523 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > > It seems to me, and this is pretty vague because I've never been > there, that the USA is a much more religion-minded place - there is > still social pressure on people to go to church, and it is assumed > that normal, decent people will always choose to do so. (It has often been suggested that nobody with a naturalistic turn of mind could succeed in American politics.) Am I right? And does this explain the sense of bewilderment that I sometimes detect when American posters seem to long for evidence of Christian beliefs in the WW? Not in the minds of the author or her readers, but in the characters themselves?> (Snip) > British schools all have Easter and Christmas breaks, called by those names and enjoyed by one and all - (snip) Tonks: Interesting!! I am from the U.S. and I think that way about the U.K! Maybe we are more alike than we know. Most people here in the U.S. are not religious and do not go to church. I think that in some parts of the country the States that voted for Bush, there might be more conservative Christians, but not in my state. In those *other* states and especially in small conservative towns there might be a push for people to go to church and at least pretend to be religious. In Texas maybe?? Also those tend to be the area that are mostly anti-Harry Potter, as odd as that seems to some of us, and to JKR herself. There is a difference in the *political correctness* between the 2 countries. I do business with a company that has a branch in both countries. At Christmas I got a *Happy Holidays* e-card from the U.S. branch on Dec. 24rd. And from the U.K. branch a *Merry Christmas* e-card the same day. And I loved it.. the U.K. one. I said.. "Thank goodness someone somewhere can still say *Merry Christmas* 1 day before *Christmas*!!!" As to the Christmas and Easter breaks at school. Here in the U.S. it is winter break and spring break. Santa can't even come to school. And Santa is a somewhat secular concept, but even he can't come into a U.S. school. For that matter I don't think that they do Halloween parties anymore either. To tie all of this back to HP. A school like Hogwarts would have to be a private Christian school, because in the U.S. we would not allow the suits of armor to sing those songs!! God rest ye merry Hippogriff, let nothing you dismay, remember Harry Potter was born on that fine day, to save us all from Voldy's power when we have gone astray... it works. Opps... no it doesn't, I can't say the G word either. And I suspect that the authorities would recognize the tune and say that was a no, no too. So the U.K. from my perspective is much more *religious*. Tonks_op From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu May 5 18:08:37 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 18:08:37 -0000 Subject: LV and "Reflected" AK curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > Why didn't LV die? I've been pondering this every since JKR told us > that is the question we should be asking. And she told us that > Harry learned something in Chamber of Secrets that will be useful to > him. So here goes: > > He learned that seeing the eyes of a basilisk in a reflection can > save you from the full force of a curse/spell. Mirrors and > reflections play a huge role in these books. And JKR said that the > director of POA put some things in that foreshadow things that will > happen in Books 6 & 7. There were a least two reflection scenes. > > I think that Lily was able to summon help for herself through magic > but chose to use her power to summon protection for Harry instead > thus, sacrificing herself. She used some type of mirror to work a > charm whereby LV's curse did not hit Harry but rebounded back onto > LV. LV did not die because it was reflected and he was not > petrified because he was using a potion (possibly made with mandrake > roots). She thought LV would be petrified and therefore found by > the OP and his reign of terror would end. Sacrificing herself Lily > created a long lasting protection that has kept Harry safe at his > aunt's home all these years. But what saved both Harry and LV was a > mirror. I, too, like the theory of the curse being reflected, but I do not think it was a mirror. My opinion following your theory is that the ancient magic Lily used to protect Harry is what reflected the curse. The magic saved Harry but he "absorbed" some of the curse, thuse leaving his scar. LV did not die because he did not receive the full blast of the AK curse, but a reflected partial curse. The real question is "Whattup wid de ancient magic, Lil?" What did she use, and is this linked to how he eventually will be defeated (with the antecedent of "he" being either LV or HP, according to the prophecy)? Julie From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 5 18:44:46 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 18:44:46 -0000 Subject: LV and "Reflected" AK curse - it's the eyes! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128525 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: >I, too, like the theory of the curse being reflected, but I do not > think it was a mirror. My opinion following your theory is that >the ancient magic Lily used to protect Harry is what reflected the > curse. The magic saved Harry but he "absorbed" some of the curse, > thuse leaving his scar. LV did not die because he did not receive > the full blast of the AK curse, but a reflected partial curse. I am loving this theory and have been pondering upon it (since the original post and I'm sorry but I can't remember who that was to credit them here). My inital thought was that Lily positioned mirrors in such a way that Lord V directed the AK at Harry's reflection in a mirror. That mirror shattered and a shard cut Harry leaving the scar. I dismissed that almost immediately as that would not really constitute a connection between them both, IMO. Now with Julie's post above I am wondering if that is where "You have your Mother's eyes" (times 100!) comes into the equation. Are Harry's eyes what deflected the curse? Had Lily somehow invoked some sort of charm on Harry's eyes to enable them to do this? So not only does he have his mother's eyes in that his eyes look the same as hers, but he has his mother's eyes in that he has the eyes that she 'made' for him? Possibly a tiny part of the curse was deflected into his own head causing the scar, but this was not powerful enough to kill him. The reflected curse that rebounded onto Lord V was also not enough to kill him, either due to a similar reason that the basillic's reflected look could not kill, or due to Lord V's dabbling in immortality or a combination of both. (Could this also be why he wears glasses? Did the process weaken his vision?) Karen From ajroald at yahoo.com Thu May 5 19:17:07 2005 From: ajroald at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:17:07 -0000 Subject: LV and "Reflected" AK curse - it's the eyes! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128526 Now with Julie's post above I am wondering if that is where "You have your Mother's eyes" (times 100!) comes into the equation. Are Harry's eyes what deflected the curse? Had Lily somehow invoked some sort of charm on Harry's eyes to enable them to do this? So not only does he have his mother's eyes in that his eyes look the same as hers, but he has his mother's eyes in that he has the eyes that she 'made' for him? > (Could this also be why he wears glasses? Did the process weaken his vision?) > > Karen Oh Karen, this is a beautiful hypothesis and my mind went into overdrive with variations of this theory. We know Lily invoked/used 'ancient magic' to protect Harry. Perhaps this ancient magic was to *literally* put herself into Harry's body to protect him and somehow absorb the majority of the curse. That could also be why Harry hears her screaming in his head when the Dementors were around, she was actually in his head at the time. Anyway, the curse hit Harry where the scar is, Lily absorbed it, and because of this spell, it then reflected back at LV through Harry's/Lily's (because she is the one invoking the magic) eyes. That could use a little polishing, but there it is. ~ Lea From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu May 5 19:25:10 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:25:10 -0000 Subject: Letter to Victor (was Re: "A Little Romance" -Let's Be Friends) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128527 > imamommy: > > I was rereading OOP last night, and I had a thought. A lot of R/H > shippers use her looong letter to Victor as a sign that she is either > indifferent to Ron's crush, or trying to make him jealous, or some > such thing. But what struck me last night was the timing of her > writing the letter. The whole term, she spends her nights either > doing homework or knitting elf hats. Just a couple of pages before > the common room scene where she is writing to Victor, she laments that > she didn't have time to make more hats, and so many elves will have to > stay over Christmas. But then, the night before the last day of the > term, instead of knitting hats, she's writing out the rough draft of > HBP to Victor. Couldn't that be part of SPEW as well instead of being shippy? Maybe she is taking the time to write to viktor because she wants to get him involved somehow. A wizard of his stature coming out for house elf rights would be pretty persuasive. A letter that size would indicate to me the kind of obsessive passion that colors everything of SPEW that Hermione engages in. I'm not sure it has anything to do with either H/R or H/H. As for shipping. I bet that Ron dates Luna, at least for a little while, in HBP. Even if he isn't that attracted to her, she would be a *safe* date because it seems pretty obvious that she has a crush on him. could be a safe venue to get some experience with the opposite sex for young Mr. Weasley. phoenixgod2000 > imamommy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 5 20:08:08 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 20:08:08 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128528 Tonks: > As to the Christmas and Easter breaks at school. Here in the U.S. > it is winter break and spring break. Santa can't even come to > school. And Santa is a somewhat secular concept, but even he can't > come into a U.S. school. For that matter I don't think that they do > Halloween parties anymore either. SSSusan: I'm in a conservative state in the U.S., and we do call it Spring Break, yes, but then the break is not tied to the date on which Easter falls, so that makes sense to me. OTOH, everyone calls the end-of-year break "Christmas break" here. Tonks: > To tie all of this back to HP. A school like Hogwarts would have > to be a private Christian school, because in the U.S. we would not > allow the suits of armor to sing those songs!! SSSusan: I'm going to argue that it is not the case that Hogwarts would have to be a private Christian school simply because of this song sung by the suit of armor. In the U.S., a school's suit of armor *could* sing "God Rest Ye Merry, Hippogriff" as long as it also sang "Frosty, the Snowman" and perhaps a lovely Kwaana piece as well! We're not sure just what the full repertoire of the suits of armor is! :-) Seriously, speaking as a school board member, I can say that it is *not* a universal truth for the U.S. that nothing religious is allowed in unless it's a parochial or religious school It's simply not true that a school can't have Santa Claus in school. Neither is it true that a school can't have a Christmas display or can't sing religious Christmas carols in a public school (US version of that term). What our state school board association attorneys have told us is that what matters is not doing EXCLUSIVELY one of those things. IOW, if the choir is going to sing sacred Christmas carols, it also needs to sing a variety of other types of songs -- perhaps Hannukah & Kwaanza songs, secular songs, etc. Same thing with holiday displays. It's not that a school *can't* have a display which includes a manger scene. It's that if the school is going to do that, it *also* needs to include non-Christian holiday images as well. (Personally, I rather like the image of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer on the roof of the Bethlehem stable, with a Star of David up in the sky and a menorah in the window. :-)) I am inclined to agree with those who've argued that Hogwarts itself does not seem to be a Christian school. I simply don't see any evidence for it. I also don't go to the other extreme and assume it's a place where no student practices a relgious faith. But to argue that "God Rest Ye Merry, Hippogriff" is evidence that Hogwarts must be a Christian school, based upon what happens here in the U.S. just doesn't quite work out, I don't think. Siriusly Snapey Susan From aggiescatz at aol.com Thu May 5 19:21:33 2005 From: aggiescatz at aol.com (kittykataddict) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 19:21:33 -0000 Subject: Oh yeah, its the Dementor-Veiled-Gateway-Connection-Theory In-Reply-To: <20050505035629.95470.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128529 kittykataddict wrote: When Harry thinks he hears voices from behind the veil, he seems to recognise 2 people - Sirius (and I still can't bear to repeat what happened to him cause it would make it too real...) and Ron. Are the voices those of loved ones who are to die in the relatively near future? Theotokos asked: When did he think he heard Sirius and Ron. I know he heard "voices" but I don't recall anyone specific. Can you provide the text evidence for that please. kittykataddict: The Voices: OOP34(The Department of Mysteries) Bloomsbury children's edition: p.682: "Still the veil swayed gently, as though somebody had just passed through it. 'Sirius?' Harry spoke again...." p.683: "'Is that you, Ron?'" OK it doesn't state that he hears them but clearly he seems to recognise 2 voices as ones he knows very well. I'm convinced that there are important clues in the scene that introduces us to The Veil. I have to admit that I'm starting to insulate myself against the shock of losing Ron (and possibly Hermione) by the end of the series - I don't think it'll be in HBP though. Don't want another personal tragedy like the loss of Sirius - I was new to the discussion group when I read book 5 and totally unprepared for the demise of my favourite dog! If they don't die - fantastic! I could bear the loss of Hagrid and even Dumbledore - the latter is already very old and Hagrid is in his sixties. As for Lupin - PLEASE JKR KILL ME INSTEAD!!! ;-} What do you think? Therese From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Thu May 5 22:34:49 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 22:34:49 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128530 Rules: Copy these questions and email your answers *both* to the newsgroup and to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com.* Any details released by JKR or subsidiaries are worth no credit *after* they are released. Example: if you predict that "A chapter will be entitled `Draco's Detour,'" it will be worth 0 points. However, if you make a prediction *and email your prediction to the list and to TigerPatronus* and *then* the detail is released, you will get full credit. If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow else have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt you down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Specificity will be rewarded. Brevity is . . . wit. All decisions of the judges (TigerPatronus and her minions) are arbitrary, ruthless, and final. (Minion recruitment will be based on number of entries received.) Prizes: Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or a title of your own choosing. A filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free butterbeer. Honorable Mentions (10): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Pretty Smartie," "A Member of the Intelligentsia," "Quite HP-ish," or a subordinate title of your own choosing. A free case of butterbeer. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Comments? Suggestions? TK - TigerPatronus! From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu May 5 23:03:49 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 23:03:49 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128531 >>SSSusan: >I am inclined to agree with those who've argued that Hogwarts itself does not seem to be a Christian school. I simply don't see any evidence for it. I also don't go to the other extreme and assume it's a place where no student practices a relgious faith. But to argue that "God Rest Ye Merry, Hippogriff" is evidence that Hogwarts must be a Christian school, based upon what happens here in the U.S. just doesn't quite work out, I don't think.< >>deborahhbbrd: >And does this explain the sense of bewilderment that I sometimes detect when American posters seem to long for evidence of Christian beliefs in the WW? Not in the minds of the author or her readers, but in the characters themselves?< >>Hells: >I just think that with references this big, we do not need to search for hidden meaning in Sirius's carol singing.< Betsy: Oh dear. I think my posts have been completely misunderstood. I'm really not all that interested in the presence or level of faith in the Harry Potter characters. My only interest was in pointing out that the WW of Britian was closely linked to the Muggle world of Britian and so its traditions, etc., were shaped by a Christian background. Therefore breaks at Hogwarts center around old Christian traditions of Christmas and Easter rather than the Winter Solstice or the Spring whatever. And therefore the Black family more than likely held their weddings and funerals in an Anglican church rather than an ancient stone circle. The reason I hung so much on Sirius' carol choice was that here we had a pure-blood wizard, raised in the British WW, who probably rarely, if ever, set foot in the Muggle world (so uninfluenced by tv, radio, etc.) and he was aware enough of Christmas carols to a) sing them, and b) riff on them a little. Which suggests to me that he's probably grown up hearing them, and that they aren't strange new weird Muggle songs he'd sing just to irritate his folks. I do not think Hogwarts is a "Christian" school - anymore than Eaton is. However it is a school that was obviously (to me) founded in a Christian culture and must have had, at one time, a mainly Christian staff and students. I'm positive that the current student body is made up of students of several different religious beliefs including those with no religion at all (JKR has done a great job at showing diversity). I believe that the British WW is just as secular as current Britian, but with a Christian foundation, like Britian. (JKR has grounded her world as much in the current world as possible, I think, to help encourage the suggestion to her young readers that the WW is just around the corner.) My main reason for posting the arguments I did was because I think there's a tendency to think, ooh witchcraft, must be pagan, and then suddenly all the HP characters are saying things like, "gods, he's cute," in various fanfics and it strikes me as sloppy characterizing because they're overlooking all the cues that the WW is similar enough to the RW that most characters, and all the ones we've met (barring maybe Trelawny) would use the much more common "God" as a swear word. (The humans anyway. The Centaurs and Goblins, etc., seem to have their own culture, so I've no ideas on them.) >>Hells: >I'm sure that some of the students at Hogwarts are from a religious background, and that the school caters for them, but this is needless information that doesn't need to be in the books. Betsy: I absolutely agree. I think it would have been a mistake for JKR to show obvious signs of one religious faith (or any for that matter) because it would have inevitably alienated some of her readers. And I don't think it would have added anything to the story. All I'm trying to say is that the British WW, like the British RW has a Christian tradition. In other words, I seriously doubt the British WW is a throwback to the days of the Druids. [a bit OT here] >>deborahhbbrd: >It seems to me, and this is pretty vague because I've never been there, that the USA is a much more religion-minded place - there is still social pressure on people to go to church, and it is assumed that normal, decent people will always choose to do so. (It has often been suggested that nobody with a naturalistic turn of mind could succeed in American politics.) Am I right?< Betsy: The US is really too big and diverse to classify that easily. I grew up in NYC, lived in the Midwest for several years, and now live in the South. In NYC there was a *very* strong seperation between church and state. Here in the South the state Electric Board (a government entity) opens its meetings with a prayer that ends with "in Jesus' name we pray," which shocked me, but my husband says is perfectly normal. I do doubt an atheist could get elected President, but every state and county is different and I'm sure you'd be able to find all types and beliefs in various elected positions. But as to naturalisim, I believe Thomas Jefferson (an early President and founding father) was a naturalist. As to church attendence, some folks I knew in the Midwest went (I had a boss tell me she'd prayed for all of us at work at her revival meeting), some didn't. I didn't see any signs of judging. In NYC not many folks went weekly, though quite a few went to important events (i.e. Easter mass). But many didn't go at all, and again, I didn't see any signs of folks being judged as less than decent. One of the first things folks ask here in this Southern small town is which church you go to (mostly so they can then ask, and do you know so-and-so, so that might be a small town thing). Honestly, I think that there would be some worries here if someone didn't attend any church ever, but I think it would be because of a genuine worry about the state of that person's soul (folks are pretty religious here) then if they were a decent person or not. But I would say most people I know go because they want to, not because of social pressure. Betsy, who also would add that the Harry Potter books are quite well loved in this small town, with a big summer reading program centered on Harry Potter and well attended by the local kids -- just to throw a wrench into that particular stereotype. From bamf505 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 05:22:40 2005 From: bamf505 at yahoo.com (Metylda) Date: Thu, 5 May 2005 22:22:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050506052240.11455.qmail@web31513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128532 --- Tonks wrote: > Tonks: > Interesting!! I am from the U.S. and I think that > way about the > U.K! Maybe we are more alike than we know. Most > people here in the > U.S. are not religious and do not go to church. I > think that in > some parts of the country the States that voted for > Bush, there > might be more conservative Christians, but not in my > state. In > those *other* states and especially in small > conservative towns > there might be a push for people to go to church and > at least > pretend to be religious. In Texas maybe?? Also > those tend to be the > area that are mostly anti-Harry Potter, as odd as > that seems to some > of us, and to JKR herself. > > There is a difference in the *political correctness* > between the 2 > countries. I do business with a company that has a > branch in both > countries. At Christmas I got a *Happy Holidays* > e-card from the > U.S. branch on Dec. 24rd. And from the U.K. branch > a *Merry > Christmas* e-card the same day. And I loved it.. > the U.K. one. I > said.. "Thank goodness someone somewhere can still > say *Merry > Christmas* 1 day before *Christmas*!!!" > > As to the Christmas and Easter breaks at school. > Here in the U.S. it > is winter break and spring break. Santa can't even > come to school. > And Santa is a somewhat secular concept, but even he > can't come into > a U.S. school. For that matter I don't think that > they do Halloween > parties anymore either. > > To tie all of this back to HP. A school like > Hogwarts would have to > be a private Christian school, because in the U.S. > we would not > allow the suits of armor to sing those songs!! > > God rest ye merry Hippogriff, let nothing you > dismay, remember Harry > Potter was born on that fine day, to save us all > from Voldy's power > when we have gone astray... it works. Opps... no > it doesn't, I > can't say the G word either. And I suspect that the > authorities > would recognize the tune and say that was a no, no > too. So the U.K. > from my perspective is much more *religious*. > > Tonks_op bamf: I've lived in both places. Granted, the problem with such generalization about what is and is not celebrated in schools in the US, is that, well, the US is pretty big. What applies in one area does not apply in other. I know it was called 'Winter Break' way back when when I was in HS in IL because, gosh darnit, we had Jewish students at our school too. Also, at my public HS, we sang many carols at our holiday concert in December as well as singing many Chanukah songs. Spring break was always called spring break. I've never heard it refered to as anything else in the US. When I lived in England (went to Uni there) it did seem to be that people were much the same as they were in the US. Neither country screamed to be more Christian than the other. There are people who go regularly, people who go at holidays, and people who don't care, or, are other religions. A vast number seemed to only go at the holidays, same as in the US. (Now I'm really craving a mincemeat pie. Made with real mincemeat, not the nuts and berry stuff in the US) I can easily see the Dursleys being in the middle group, which maybe where Harry learned to be, indifferent, to religion. Or at least not really showing any inclination towards any one religion. (Well, maybe not Buddism as he does eat meat. Although that can be left to individual choice...) "Why, you speak treason!" -Maid Marian "Fluently!" -Robin Hood -The Adventures of Robin Hood (1938) Cub fans are not normal. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri May 6 05:37:41 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 05:37:41 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128533 Tonks said: To tie all of this back to HP. A school like Hogwarts would have to be a private Christian school, because in the U.S. we would not allow the suits of armor to sing those songs!! Tonks (talking to myself): Did I say that! Well there you go, this is what I get for trying to tie something back into HP just to get past the elves, when my post was really trying to answer the difference between the culture in the UK and US. (Blushing) If I were an elf I'd have to slam my ears in the oven door. Now to everyone else: What I meant to say was that IF Hogwarts *was in the U.S.* it would have to be a private Christian school. I don't really think that it is a Christian school, but it is not a pagan school either. I do think that, as Betsy said, the students are from all different religions and that JKR is being very careful not to offend anyone. And as Betsy said I too would not be surprised if the founders of Hogwarts had been Christian, probably Roman Catholic. But that is not important to the story. Even if they had been pure pagan, that too would not important to the story. What is important to the story is the theme of the books. I do think that the books have a Christian theme and message. JKR has cloaked it well, but it is there. It is not suppose to slap you in the face. It is suppose to speak to your right brain, your subconscious mind and seep quietly into your heart and soul, whatever your faith. And whatever your faith the message will fit. Just because something might originate from a Christian POV doesn't mean that it can't speak to everyone. The Christian message is a universal message of Love in its highest form, for everyone, everywhere. Even Tom Riddle can be redeemed, because the God of Love cares even for him. I think that DD cares for Tom too. DD doesn't like what Tom has become and the things that Tom has done, but in his heart DD cares for Tom too. That is part of why I think he calls him Tom. Tonks_op From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Fri May 6 05:41:51 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 05:41:51 -0000 Subject: Oh yeah, its the Dementor-Veiled-Gateway-Connection-Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128534 Therese: > At the Christmas dinner in POA we are apparently meant to regard > Trelawney's rantings about 13 dining together and "the first to > rise..." as "tripe". Ron and Harry get up together, we don't know > which one first. Yet at Harry's first meal at 12 Grimmauld Place in > OOP, 13 sit down to dine and Sirius is first to rise: "Sirius started > to rise from his chair. 'Molly, you're not the only person at this > table who cares about Harry,' said Lupin sharply. 'Sirius, sit > down.'" > When Harry thinks he hears voices from behind the veil, he seems to > recognise 2 people - Sirius (and I still can't bear to repeat what > happened to him cause it would make it too real...) and Ron. Are the > voices those of loved ones who are to die in the relatively near > future? There must also be some significance to the fact that Luna > hears voices, Ginny and Neville also appear transfixed but Ron and > Hermione hear nothing, though Hermione's acute instinct for danger is > alerted. Chys: Does that follow the famous 2 book rule now, too? -Poa -to- OoTP? I wouldn't put it past JKR to have planned that. Makes me think something nasty is going to happen to Ron, aside from the basic nagging feeling I've been having. I started getting said nagging feeling in reading POA the first time around, not sure why. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Fri May 6 05:52:23 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 05:52:23 -0000 Subject: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128535 > Barmaid now: > > Perhaps that is where the cemetery JKR has told us in on the grounds > will come in..... hmmmmmmmmm. > Or maybe you just have to dig deeper (in the pensieve) to find them, perhaps Harry so far has only seen the ones recently placed in the pensieve, that's why he sees Snapes memories and not any others that someone else may have left in the pensieve, and in DD's office. Anyway, what is this about a cemetery? I have heard nothing of this. Chys, curious. From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 6 06:03:16 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 06:03:16 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128536 > Betsy wrote: > I do not think Hogwarts is a "Christian" school - anymore than Eaton > is. I hate to throw a spanner in again, but Eton most definitely is a Christian school. Most British Public schools are. I went to one myself, which is why I am pretty certain that Hogwats is not one. There was chapel twice a day (although only the morning one was compulsory) and a full blown sevice such as a Sung Eucharist on Sundays. There were plenty of girls there from other religions, however the school did stipulate that if you wanted to attend that school then you had to attend chapel. As I have said before my view is that if Hogwarts was a Christian school then we would have had to have had some mention of chapel somewhere. I apologise to the Elves but sometimes an answer to a question is based on personal experience which by its very nature is non-canon Karen From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Fri May 6 06:09:42 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 06:09:42 -0000 Subject: LV and "Reflected" AK curse - it's the eyes! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lea" wrote: > Now with Julie's post above I am wondering if that is > where "You have your Mother's eyes" (times 100!) comes into the > equation. Are Harry's eyes what deflected the curse? Had Lily > somehow invoked some sort of charm on Harry's eyes to enable them to > do this? So not only does he have his mother's eyes in that his eyes > look the same as hers, but he has his mother's eyes in that he has > the eyes that she 'made' for him? > > (Could this also be why he wears glasses? Did the process > weaken his vision?) > > > > Karen > Chys: Well, his glasses could have as easily come from his father's side of the family. A question about the eyes- does anyone know if JKR meant that Harry was BORN with his mother's eyes? I wonder if he didn't acquire them afterwords, in GH. It seems so odd that after infancy has passed, so many people reflect on this, that his eyes are just like his mothers. (Ok, the father's hair is understandable... Molly can't comb it, for one thing, and it's a constant reminder of a ghost of the past, James. But it's not mentioned as strongly as the eyes.) I have my mom's eyes but our friends and relatives don't gush over it every other month. Just sounds odd to me, like she's trying to drive the point home that he HAS his mother's eyes. Chys From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri May 6 06:33:56 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 06:33:56 -0000 Subject: His Mother's Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128538 His mother's eyes. They are green and maybe that is important, maybe not. There is something about Harry. We have seen it for a long time now. He sees things differently. For one he is near sighted. Now what might that mean metaphorically? We will need to learn more about Lily and I am sure that we will in book 6. It will be very important for us to understand what type of person she was. We already know a few things. She was a person of compassion. She showed that when she defended Snape who was probably not a very popular or very nice person even then. She was a person of great courage, and the greatest form of Love. Even more than that, she must have been a person of great faith. By that I mean faith in the working of the charm that was placed on Harry. Otherwise her baby son would, after her death, have been left to be tortured and killed by the most evil of men. What mother would allow that? She did not attempt to kill LV herself. Think about what that means. Most mothers would have tried to do some damage to the person threatening their child, but Lily did not do that. She did not resist. As a person she was compassionate, courageous, loving and trusting in the ancient magic. Perhaps she was a person of peace and non-violence, like Gandhi. With a name like Lily, what else could she have been? Harry has her eyes. Harry has the eyes of compassion. He allows Wormtail to go free. Sure he explains it by saying that his father would not have wanted Sirius and Lupin to become murderers. Let us think about that for a moment. If Harry has that feeling for his father's wishes and the ability to see people the way his mother does, Harry will not kill LV. I don't know if Harry will see Tom in any way that would cause Harry to have the compassion that his mother had for Snape, but there is something to ponder there. Some time ago someone on this list suggested that Lily had compassion on Tom Riddle that night and did not want to destroy him and that is was her compassion on Tom that saved Tom. I don't know about that, but thought I would just remind people that someone suggested that. Perhaps if we can put our heads together and ponder all of these points we may as a group come up with the answer. I think that something very great, very profound is going to happen in the end of the series. JKR doesn't think that anyone will figure it out, so it must be a real kicker. Exactly what, I am not sure. Perhaps it does have something to do with Lilies eyes. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 6 06:55:08 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 06:55:08 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen Barker" wrote: > > > Betsy wrote: > > > I do not think Hogwarts is a "Christian" school - anymore than Eaton > > is. > > I hate to throw a spanner in again, but Eton most definitely is a > Christian school. Most British Public schools are. Geoff: I think that this question of schools is reflected in other areas. Although much of British society is now secular, it needs to be remembered that a huge swathe of institutions in the UK came originally from Christian sources. The public schools, ranging from the big ones such as Eton and Harrow down to smaller, more locally- supported institutions spring immediately to mind. But hospitals are also often linked to Christian backgrounds - they often sprang from the infirmaries of the old abbeys and monasteries. Likewise our political institutions and ideas of social welfare. Look at the work done by folk like Shaftesbury to remove child labour and Wilberforce to abolish slavery as an example. It was in the long period of development of social conscience over many centuries, underpinned by Christian belief, that Hogwarts was also developing its ethos and traditions. So I see no reason why the school and its staff should not adopt and reflect the mores of the times it lived through. I feel Jo Rowling has in her creation of the school that it was part of the view that we should work towards making things better for those around us (whether this was overtly religious or not) that led folk like the four founders to come together to better the lot of magically gifted children, whether pureblood, half-blood or Muggle. Some people on this group seem to relish rubbishing the influence of Christianity in general and deride those of us who stand up for its message but without the influence of those who accepted the teaching and salvation offered by Christ, the world would be a very different place today. And so might Hogwarts? From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 6 10:57:28 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 10:57:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione becomes animagus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128540 Well, as Hermione is so studious, she may well choose become animagus out of academical interest. And, since she'll be 17 - of age - so early to her 6th year (next book!) I don't see why she wouldn't do so. Possibly her animagus form would be an otter - or some sort of feline. I think Hermione may become one -- even if Harry&Ron won't. As for Harry, I suppose he's going to be busy learning Occlumency/Legilimency with Dumbledore... Just one throw-in before July.. Finwitch From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 11:13:45 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 04:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050506111345.59686.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128541 Geoff Bannister wrote: Some people on this group seem to relish rubbishing the influence of Christianity in general and deride those of us who stand up for its message but without the influence of those who accepted the teaching and salvation offered by Christ, the world would be a very different place today. And so might Hogwarts? I cannot speak for others, but I have no problem with the roll of christianity in history. What my problem is with people who feel HP is a re-telling of the bible and that christians invented all of the holidays and that they have no basis in pagan beliefs. I, myself, was born and raised in the "bible belt" of the deep south (US). I was a soloist in the church choir as a teen. But just because JKR is a christian, it does not mean that HP is a re-telling of the bible and the morals of the bible are not exclusive to christians - heck - I am a pagan and my beliefs hold me into a more strict moral code that I have seen most christians live. Morals are universal. The students at Hogwarts are from all different backgrounds. They are not re-named characters from the bible. Harry is not jesus. Hate to tell you folks, but, Harry Potter is just a book. It is not the bible. It is not a piece of fiction meant to convert the masses. It is not a story meant to show how perfect the world would be if we were all christians. It is just a story. Just my opinion and I am sticking to it. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 11:42:16 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 04:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione becomes animagus? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050506114216.9323.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128542 finwitch wrote: Well, as Hermione is so studious, she may well choose become animagus out of academical interest. And, since she'll be 17 - of age - so early to her 6th year (next book!) I don't see why she wouldn't do so. Possibly her animagus form would be an otter - or some sort of feline. I think Hermione may become one -- even if Harry&Ron won't. As for Harry, I suppose he's going to be busy learning Occlumency/Legilimency with Dumbledore... Just one throw-in before July.. Finwitch I love this theory. Harry studys and becomes a legilimens, Hermione an anamagus, and Ron.... I still like the theory that he is a true seer. I think he will have his first prophecy and DD will start taking a special interest in him. But what about Neville? Ginny? Luna? and the others? OOtP was the "coming of age" book with them really having to deal with the world outside of Hogwarts. I see this book as the book where they have to come to deal with themselves. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 11:57:19 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 04:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] 100 years ago... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050506115720.35948.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128543 andrewpepperuk wrote: If Voldemort is the worst wizard for a century, who was that worse wizard? Harry was the youngest quidditch player for a century. Who was the younger player? This century thing might be important as it was carried into the film version. -Andrew Okay, lets throw in this twist.... What happened to that other wizard and quidditch player? The ones in this century are facing each other. What happened with the other two? moonmyyst --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aggiescatz at aol.com Thu May 5 21:00:42 2005 From: aggiescatz at aol.com (kittykataddict) Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 21:00:42 -0000 Subject: Why didn't LV die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128544 I agree the the main reason Voldemort didn't die was because the AK curse was only partially reflected and the rest transferred to Harry - so the reflected part wasn't strong enough to kill Voldemort (I also have a theory that Voldemort, not Snape, is the real vampire but that's another story). As for how Lily brought this about - I always assumed (maybe wrongly) that the 'ancient magic' that, through Lily, protected Harry was nothing more (or less) complicated than pure, unconditional love for her son, demonstrated by her willingness to die for him and symbolised by the fact they have the same eyes (thus the same blood). PS17:The Man With Two Faces:"'But Why couldn't Quirrell touch me?' 'Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot understand, it is love. ...to have been loved so deeply,..., will give us some protection for ever. It is in your very skin....It was agony to touch a person marked by something so good.'" To me there seems to be a thread throughout the books that the real fight isn't between good and evil, but for Love to Conquer All - a struggle between those who have the capacity to feel pure, unconditional, selfless love and those who cannot or will not. When Dumbledore talks to Harry about the power Harry has that Voldemort has not (doesn't know or understand and therefore under-estimates) towards the end of OOP he seems to be referring to the same thing: OOP37:The Lost Prophecy:"'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries'....'That is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. ....It is the power... that you posess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from posession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. ...It was your heart that saved you.'" Furthermore Dumbledore doesn't try to kill Voldemort in OOP36:The Only One He Ever Feared: "'There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!' snarled Voldemort. 'You are quite wrong,' said Dumbledore,....'Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness'". I don't think that he doesn't try to kill Voldemort because he believes this to be Harry's job (in order to fulfill the prophecy). I think he tries to inflict something else that would cause Voldemort the worst sort of agony imaginable (far worse than death): the sudden ability to love, to feel quilt and remorse for the countless terrible things he's done. If Harry simply ends up killing Voldemort (and I refuse to even contemplate the series ending with Voldemort triumphant, though there's probably a good chance Harry WILL die) he will become a murderer. No matter how evil the person that is slain, two wrongs still don't make a right. I think the secret to vanquishing (the Prophecy, after all, never says 'killing')the Dark Lord lies precisely in Harry's inability to kill and his great capacity for love (and inspiring love) - an ancient magic. Just a theory. My cynical self is now trying to tell me that this all sounds a bit hippy-dippy but the hippy in me rejoices! Therese From cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 10:55:35 2005 From: cyclone_61032 at yahoo.com (David & Laura) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 10:55:35 -0000 Subject: His Mother's Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128545 Tonks wrote: > His mother's eyes. They are green and maybe that is important, > maybe not. There is something about Harry. We have seen it for > a long time now. He sees things differently. For one he is near > sighted. Now what might that mean metaphorically? > > It will be very important for us to understand what type of > person she [Lily] was. We already know a few things. As > a person she was compassionate, courageous, loving and trusting > in the ancient magic. Perhaps she was a person of peace and non- > violence, like Gandhi. With a name like Lily, what else could > she have been? > > Harry has her eyes. Harry has the eyes of compassion. He allows > Wormtail to go free. Sure he explains it by saying that his > father would not have wanted Sirius and Lupin to become murderers. > Let us think about that for a moment. If Harry has that feeling > for his father's wishes and the ability to see people the way his > mother does, Harry will not kill LV. I don't know if Harry will > see Tom in any way that would cause Harry to have the compassion > that his mother had for Snape, but there is something to ponder > there. David: I like where you're going with this. What is Harry's greatest desire? From the Mirror of Erised, we know it's to be reunited with his parents. Did his mother, guessing the inevitable, arrange for her 'spirit/soul' to meld with Harry following her sacrifice? Was James involved? Was Dumbledore? As smart as Dumblydorr is, you have to think he believed LV would eventually bypass the Potter's 'invisibility. He certainly believed LV could cheat death. I haven't worked it all out yet, but here are some factors that I believe may be involved: - Harry's power more eminates from Lily and James and their sacrifice than from LV curse transfer - Possibly the most telling scene to date was the GoF graveyard battle. Harry's brain power to force the curse junction back into LV's wand, over-coming LV's will. Is Harry now really the summation of 3 people? - I just think ole' Godric Gryff. is involved in this. Was Lily or James a descendant, and thus Harry? I go back to DD's statement in CoS where he told Harry it would take a 'true Gryffindor' to pull GG's sword out of the hat. Part of the above theory has DD also sacrificing himself and melding with Harry, thus completing him and creating the weapon LV can't destroy. In some respects this matches one of the central themes of this story...none of us are in this alone and we are far stronger standing together. I certainly believe DD knows more about the above and will start the download with Harry after the ending of OoTP. Still working on it. David From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 6 12:26:21 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 13:26:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: His Mother's Eyes In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050506122621.20455.qmail@web26302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128546 Tonks wrote: > We will need to learn more about Lily and I am sure that we > will in book 6. Actually we won't find out until Book 7. JKR said in: The Connection 12 October 1999 "Now the important thing about Harry?s mother, the really, really significant thing, you?re going to find out in 2 parts. You?ll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you?ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you?ll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can?t tell you what those things are so I?m sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do." The real question in my mind is what exactly was significant in Book 5? "hells456" From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 13:34:51 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 06:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: His Mother's Eyes In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050506133451.60562.qmail@web53502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128547 Actually we won't find out until Book 7. JKR said in: The Connection 12 October 1999 "Now the important thing about Harry?s mother, the really, really significant thing, you?re going to find out in 2 parts. You?ll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you?ll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you?ll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can?t tell you what those things are so I?m sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do." The real question in my mind is what exactly was significant in Book 5? "hells456" What is the most obvious is what has already been mentioned... compassion for Snape (and in the media-that-shall-not-be-named her compassion for Lupin which I think was there to slap us in the face). But let us not forget the hints of Lily at home (from Petunia) and how she detested James at first. I cannot help but think that this is going to be important. I know that Sirius and Lupin kind of brushed this aside. I like the theory that it is not the color (which JKR herself said was not important) but the way he sees things... the look shining from his eyes. moonmyyst --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri May 6 13:43:17 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 13:43:17 -0000 Subject: Hermione becomes animagus? In-Reply-To: <20050506114216.9323.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > I love this theory. Harry studys and becomes a legilimens, Hermione an anamagus, and Ron.... I still like the theory that he is a true seer. GEO: We've seen a seer (Trelawney) and Ron is frankly not seer material especially since Trelawney is practically always wrong and only predicts the future in her trance state, the stuff that Ron says that actually comes true can probably be viewed as a means of foreshadowing utilized by Rowling. As for whats going to happen to Ron, I for one think he will have the exception of being the average man within the trio in contrast to Harry and Hermione so most likely Ron being a strategist or a seer is probably and most likely not going to happen. From meckelburg at foni.net Fri May 6 15:57:39 2005 From: meckelburg at foni.net (Mecki) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 15:57:39 -0000 Subject: 100 years ago... In-Reply-To: <20050506115720.35948.qmail@web53510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > > > andrewpepperuk wrote: > If Voldemort is the worst wizard for a century, who was that worse > wizard? > > Harry was the youngest quidditch player for a century. Who was the > younger player? > > This century thing might be important as it was carried into the film > version. > > -Andrew > > > > > Okay, lets throw in this twist.... What happened to that other wizard and quidditch player? The ones in this century are facing each other. What happened with the other two? > > > > moonmyyst What about Dumbledore and Grindelwald? Just an idea Mecki with 2 kids and now 2 angels ******************** beyond the door there's peace I'm sure and I know there'll be no more tears in heaven (Eric Clapton) ******************* From ryokas at hotmail.com Fri May 6 16:12:44 2005 From: ryokas at hotmail.com (Miikka R.) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 16:12:44 -0000 Subject: LV and "Reflected" AK curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fanofminerva" wrote: > I, too, like the theory of the curse being reflected, but I do not > think it was a mirror. My opinion following your theory is that the > ancient magic Lily used to protect Harry is what reflected the > curse. The magic saved Harry but he "absorbed" some of the curse, > thuse leaving his scar. LV did not die because he did not receive > the full blast of the AK curse, but a reflected partial curse. The > real question is "Whattup wid de ancient magic, Lil?" What did she > use, and is this linked to how he eventually will be defeated (with > the antecedent of "he" being either LV or HP, according to the > prophecy)? > Julie I'm more in favor of the PS - level explanation, in face of all recent evidence. The way I see it - and more because I like the way it sounds than actual likelihood of being true - the case was very similar to the first Narnia book. What took place wasn't an elaborate magical ritual or even a proper spell, just the way the world works. Mother dies unresistingly and voluntarily, kid gains protection. Magic woven into the very structure of existence, if you like to use this kind of language. What this can't account for is why LV wasn't trying to kill Lily, who was an active Order member. That may have just been a plot point. In any case, it's pretty clear what took out the house. The mighty wizard casts a potent spell which goes awry big time, the end result is a massive burst of unfocused magical power; hence, boom. The same principle was at work when Pettigrew escaped Sirius. - Kizor From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Fri May 6 16:25:50 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 16:25:50 -0000 Subject: Letter to Victor (was Re: "A Little Romance" -Let's Be Friends) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128551 > As for shipping. I bet that Ron dates Luna, at least for a little > while, in HBP. Even if he isn't that attracted to her, she would be > a *safe* date because it seems pretty obvious that she has a crush > on him. could be a safe venue to get some experience with the > opposite sex for young Mr. Weasley. > > phoenixgod2000 > Totally agree with this. I think it's good too, that a girl is more attracted to him than the famous Harry Potter. It will be a much needed ego boost. I'll be interested to see just how Hermione reacts. Casey From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 6 17:52:23 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 17:52:23 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128552 Geofff: > It was in the long period of development of social conscience over > many centuries, underpinned by Christian belief, that Hogwarts was > also developing its ethos and traditions. Pippin: One of the lovely things about fiction, IMO, is that there isn't any right or wrong way to interpret it. Centaurs and unicorns are explicitly called magical, but if you didn't know that Christmas is a religious holy day or that a friar is a member of a Christian religious order, the books wouldn't tell you. It is up to the reader to supply the reference. The word for this kind of indirectness is ''allusion'. Its root word means 'play'. Allegory, on the other hand, comes from the word for 'marketplace.' The allegorist has something to sell, and an allegory rests, as Tolkien put it, on the "purposed domination of the author." (You can tell that, like JKR, he didn't like allegory very much.) Not everyone 'gets' allusion, and those who do bring to it their own varied experience and frame of reference. That's part of the game. Because we don't know what Sirius's frame of reference is, we don't know whether he was alluding to the lines, "Remember Christ our Savior was born on Christmas Day" or not. We know a little more about JKR's frame of reference, but there again, Sirius's song need only be read as an allusion to Christianity by someone who is familiar with the carol, and chooses to make the connection. It is not 'rubbishing' the influence of Christianity on the real world, or on JKR, to imagine a pagan or multi-cultural or religiously neutral wizarding world. By using allusion, she has left it up to the reader to decide. As for the historical context, King James, who sponsored the most influential translation of the Bible into English, also was a fierce persecutor of supposed witches and wizards. It wouldn't be at all surprising to me to discover that the wizarding world and religion in general came to a parting of the ways and not on friendly terms. I've sometimes wondered if religion hasn't been forced underground in the Wizarding World the way magic has in the Muggle world. Maybe wizards celebrate Christmas and name godparents the way many people celebrate Hallowe'n or choose a May queen, with no idea that it ever had any spiritual content whatsoever. And just as there are a few Muggles who are aware of the magical world, perhaps there are a few wizards to whom religion is still important. Maybe one of the reasons Harry's christening was such a small affair was that his parents and Sirius were among those few. Pippin From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 18:00:36 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 11:00:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050506180036.40780.qmail@web20021.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128553 --- pippin_999 wrote: > Not everyone 'gets' allusion, and those who do bring > to it their own > varied experience and frame of reference. That's > part of the game. > Because we don't know what Sirius's frame of > reference is, we don't > know whether he was alluding to the lines, "Remember > Christ our > Savior was born on Christmas Day" or not. I have to disagree. I think that, though it's not directly stated, that we the audience are absolutely meant to interpret it that way and that to try to interpret it any other way is really, really stretching. Rebecca __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Fri May 6 18:08:45 2005 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 18:08:45 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128554 Pippin suggests: > I've sometimes wondered if religion hasn't been forced underground >in the Wizarding World the way magic has in the Muggle world. Maybe >wizards celebrate Christmas and name godparents the way many people >celebrate Hallowe'n or choose a May queen, with no idea that it ever >had any spiritual content whatsoever. And just as there are a few >Muggles who are aware of the magical world, perhaps there are a few >wizards to whom religion is still important. Maybe one of the reasons >Harry's christening was such a small affair was that his parents and >Sirius were among those few. I do not think this is the case, because in the Wizarding World (unlike, as far as I know, the real world) the status of "godfather" has legal standing. A godfather counts as a legal guardian, able to sign a permission form for his ward, even though the godfather is a wanted fugitive at the time. And if Sirius hadn't gone to Azkaban, Harry would have been able to live with him under wizarding law. Janet Anderson From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Fri May 6 18:14:20 2005 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 18:14:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Letter to Victor (was Re: "A Little Romance" -Let's Be Friends) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128555 Casey says: >Totally agree with this. I think it's good too, that a girl is more >attracted to him than the famous Harry Potter. It will be a much >needed ego boost. I'll be interested to see just how Hermione reacts. You and me both. I have mentioned before, and will mention again, that I think Ron and Luna will date, if only for awhile, and that it will be a wake-up call to Hermione that if she wants something, she'd better a) make up her mind and b) speak up herself or someone else will. (Note that this is the same thing she said to Ron, which is, I think, typical of Hermione's ability to see the shortcomings of others more clearly than her own.) Janet Anderson From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri May 6 19:04:32 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 19:04:32 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis: A Summary of Current Ideas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128556 I've spent a little time reviewing current ideas about "Felix Felices" one of the chapter titles from JKR's site. Here are some things I've culled from the discussion on various sites, with some comments of my own. Arguments, corrections, etc. are welcome: "Felix felicis" is in fact a standard entry from Latin-English dictionaries, which give the adjective's nominative and genitive form. "Felix" means happy or lucky or fortunate. It was a nickname used in Roman times for people who were, not surprisingly, happy or lucky or fortunate. Felicis translates, I suppose, as "of the lucky/happy one." So literally it means "Lucky of the lucky one" or "happy of the happy one." So what might this Felix Felicis be? 1) A thing. Some people have hypothesized it might be a drink. Perhaps it is a potion with a human name (like a Shirley Temple or a Mickey Finn). If so, it would be one to make the person happy or lucky. Based on the British adult cover, some have hypothesized this is a potion that will be brewed on the NEWT level. I think this is unlikely, but an original idea. 2) A spell. If so it would serve the same purpose as above. But JKR's spells tend to be verbs in the active singular, e.g. "Exspecto Patronum" means "I await the protector" and "Accio" translates as "I summon." Thus I don't think it's likely to be a spell. 3) A person. This seems to be the best possibility. JKR loves descriptive names (i.e. Remus Lupin, Sirius Black), as well as names that alliterate (i.e. Filius Flitwick, Severus Snape, Peter Pettigrew, etc.). Whoever it is, he (Felix is a male name, Felicia is the female form) must be a happy or lucky person. Who could it be? Leading candidates are: A) The new DADA teacher. This would follow the pattern of the other books in using the position to introduce new characters. B) The new potions teacher if Snape gets DADA. I think this is unlikely, but possible. C) The person who teaches Harry Occlumency. This could be combined with one of the others above. With a name like that, he would be better at producing a patronus. But maybe Occlumency and fighting Dementors is more closely related than Snape would like to admit. D) The new Minister of Magic. I suppose winning the position might be considered lucky. Who else could he be? Perhaps an auror? Luck would be very important for such a person. If the name means "Happy" who could he be? It would be a great name for a psychiatrist, but I doubt JKR wants to go in that direction. Could it be a new student, a la Luna Lovegood? Or perhaps one of the new Gryffindor Beaters whom JKR has mentioned? Is he the lion-like man described on JKR's site? Some have thought so, but largely because of a confusion of "Felix" with "felis," which means cat. It's still a strong possibility, although if this turns out to be the case I suspect the similarity between the Latin words is not an intentional play on JKR's part. I wouldn't want to bet on anything at this point. Based purely on patterns in JKR's writing, the most likely answer is that he is an auror who will be the new DADA teacher and probably also teach Harry Occlumency. But that is not something I would count on. Is he the Half Blood Prince? Who knows? Anyway, just some thoughts. Additions or arguments are welcome. Lupinlore From crownless_aragorn at yahoo.co.in Fri May 6 15:30:37 2005 From: crownless_aragorn at yahoo.co.in (Subhash Sane) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 16:30:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hogwarts, A Gurukool - My theory Message-ID: <20050506153037.48532.qmail@web8502.mail.in.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128557 Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry set-up greatly resembles an ancient Indian concept of learning the things. This concept is known as ?Gurukool?. Many of you must have heard the word ?Guru? which means ?Teacher?. Techno guru, Management guru are the words that we use in daily lives. In ancient India, there used to be 4 class of people. Kshatriya (Warriors), Brahmins, Vaishya, Shudra. Brahmins were the ?Cardinals? of Hindu religion. Vaishya class of people were engaged in commerce and Shudras were exploited like nothing. A person of one class was not able to join the professions of other classes. Brahmins were not borne to fight wars and Kshtriyas were not borne to teach religion and God. There were families who can only be warriors and nothing else in life. It was similar in case of other three classes. ?Gurukool? simply means ?The House of the teacher?. Young Kshtriyas used to go to their teacher?s house, stay there for some years and learn skills of war. Young Brahmins also used to learn the religion and God in the same way. Similar to Hogwarts, Gurukool used to take students at certain age. Hogwarts takes only that class of people who are ?magical? enough to be there. Kshtriyas never used to learn religion in detail because that was not they were required to do. They were borne to fight. Similarly, the question of religion and its existence in the castle never comes because that is not what the school had been built. Hogwarts is the part of a society and the most important phase in any witch and wizard?s life. It is teaching what is required. Hence, Hogwarts can be called as Gurukool. Though some people may say that religion cannot be detached from any institutions like a school, JKR has given a message by excluding it from the institution called ?Hogwarts?. Harry potter books will always be greater than any religious book because it has done what a religion couldn?t have done and that is-reaching the people?s heart regardless of any religion. Hogwarts doesn?t know any religion. It teaches magic and magic only. Subhash Sane, who supports Tom Riddle's claim that Galileo was wrong and the Earth revolves around Tom Riddle only. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 6 15:51:53 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 15:51:53 -0000 Subject: His Mother's Eyes In-Reply-To: <20050506122621.20455.qmail@web26302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, hells456 > The real question in my mind is what exactly was significant in > Book 5? Gerry: Well, I'd say her protection of Snape in the pensieve scene. In that scene we see her do what she believes is right, regardless of the people who are involved. She called two very popular guys from her own house bullies, and she protected the impopular, ugly Slytherin. She was the only one who went against these two. The rest was laughing or looking on. That takes guts as well as a strong moral conviction. The scene itself of course was very significant for Harry, who saw a very negative side of his beloved father, and his only consolation was that his mother was good. And I would not be surprised if Harry one day will get the same kind of 'test', making the popular choice or making the right one. What I liked about the scene was that we finally see Harry's thoughts turn to Lily. In other books, if he thinks about his parents, it is always James. He never wonders about Lily, what kind of person she might have been, en what he inherited from her (except for the eyes). Now she has become a person in her own right for him. Gerry From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 6 19:17:57 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 19:17:57 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128559 pippin_999 > As for the historical context, King James, who sponsored the most > influential translation of the Bible into English, also was a fierce > persecutor of supposed witches and wizards. It wouldn't be at all > surprising to me to discover that the wizarding world and religion > in general came to a parting of the ways and not on friendly terms. > > I've sometimes wondered if religion hasn't been forced underground > in the Wizarding World the way magic has in the Muggle world. Maybe > wizards celebrate Christmas and name godparents the way many people > celebrate Hallowe'n or choose a May queen, with no idea that it ever > had any spiritual content whatsoever. And just as there are a few > Muggles who are aware of the magical world, perhaps there are a few > wizards to whom religion is still important. Maybe one of the reasons > Harry's christening was such a small affair was that his parents and > Sirius were among those few. Yes, but neither Halloween, no choosing the May Queen is magic. Undoubtedly pagan practices and folk believes influenced medieval magic or, rather, popular perception of it, but then, so did Christianity. Witchcraft as we know and love now would have been impossible outside the context of Christianity. By the time King James wrote his Daemonologie, the view of witchcraft as a kind of heresy had been firmly established. He repressed witches on the same grounds with Romans Catholics and dissenters. Catholics and witches had been tried by the same courts and hung (drawn and quartered) on same Tyburn Hill (or burnt on the same stakes, sometimes even simultaneously). The conflict was not between magic and religion as you put, but between the King's religion and heretics, or on the continent between the Pope's religion and heretics. Fat Friar could have died a violent death because of his being a Friar just as surely as because his being a wizard. And whatever was the reason of the great Schism between Muggles and wizards I don't think it was because wizards were pagan and wanted to practice their rituals and religious festivals in peace. In fact, between Christianity and paganism as wizards' spiritual framework I think the former is by far safer bet. I can easily picture McGonagall attending an occasional christening or wedding (although it would have to be in a Muggle church ? we haven't seen anything churchlike in Hogwarts and Hogsmead as of yet), but imagine her performing a fertility ritual! It boggles the mind I think more likely that nowadays most wizards' attitude towards both Christianity and paganism is precisely the same than that of Muggles ? for them it is a matter of tradition, rather than faith. There has been enough discussion on-list about Christmas in the WW -- whether or not it retains its religious meaning. I will be fist to agree that it has been secularised, but then so has been Halloween. Hogwarts students enjoy them both "with no idea that it ever had any spiritual content whatsoever", as you put it. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 6 19:27:25 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 19:27:25 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Janet Anderson" wrote: > Pippin suggests: > > > I've sometimes wondered if religion hasn't been forced underground > >in the Wizarding World the way magic has in the Muggle world. Maybe > >wizards celebrate Christmas and name godparents the way many people > >celebrate Hallowe'n or choose a May queen, with no idea that it ever > >had any spiritual content whatsoever. And just as there are a few > >Muggles who are aware of the magical world, perhaps there are a few > >wizards to whom religion is still important. Maybe one of the reasons > >Harry's christening was such a small affair was that his parents and > >Sirius were among those few. > > I do not think this is the case, because in the Wizarding World (unlike, as > far as I know, the real world) the status of "godfather" has legal standing. > A godfather counts as a legal guardian, able to sign a permission form for > his ward, even though the godfather is a wanted fugitive at the time. And > if Sirius hadn't gone to Azkaban, Harry would have been able to live with > him under wizarding law. > > > Janet Anderson I wouldn't be too sure of that. Harry felt sure that Sirius' letter would be "good enough for Dumbledore", but what DD considers good enough for himself and what is legal in the WW is not always coincide. In fact, I'd say it not OFTEN coincides. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 6 19:36:43 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 19:36:43 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis: A Summary of Current Ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128561 "lupinlore" : > Leading candidates are: > > A) The new DADA teacher. This would follow the pattern of the other > books in using the position to introduce new characters. > > B) The new potions teacher if Snape gets DADA. I think this is > unlikely, but possible. > > C) The person who teaches Harry Occlumency. This could be combined > with one of the others above. With a name like that, he would be > better at producing a patronus. But maybe Occlumency and fighting > Dementors is more closely related than Snape would like to admit. > > D) The new Minister of Magic. I suppose winning the position might > be considered lucky. > > Who else could he be? Perhaps an auror? Luck would be very > important for such a person. If the name means "Happy" who could he > be? It would be a great name for a psychiatrist, but I doubt JKR > wants to go in that direction. > > Could it be a new student, a la Luna Lovegood? Or perhaps one of > the new Gryffindor Beaters whom JKR has mentioned? > > Is he the lion-like man described on JKR's site? Some have thought How about the new "Wizard of the Month" on the JKR site: Felix Summerbee (1447 ? 1508) Inventor of Cheering Charms a_svirn > so, but largely because of a confusion of "Felix" with "felis," > which means cat. It's still a strong possibility, although if this > turns out to be the case I suspect the similarity between the Latin > words is not an intentional play on JKR's part. > > I wouldn't want to bet on anything at this point. Based purely on > patterns in JKR's writing, the most likely answer is that he is an > auror who will be the new DADA teacher and probably also teach Harry > Occlumency. But that is not something I would count on. > > Is he the Half Blood Prince? Who knows? > > Anyway, just some thoughts. Additions or arguments are welcome. > > > Lupinlore From DANCERWH86 at aol.com Fri May 6 16:12:33 2005 From: DANCERWH86 at aol.com (DANCERWH86 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 12:12:33 -0400 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools In-Reply-To: <1115382024.28477.42891.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1115382024.28477.42891.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <8C7206D8B791133-AA4-14A5D@FWM-D40.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128562 Moonmyyst Wrote: <<<< But just because JKR is a Christian, it does not mean that HP is a re-telling of the bible and the morals of the bible are not exclusive to Christians . Morals are universal. The students at Hogwarts are from all different backgrounds. They are not re-named characters from the bible. Harry is not Jesus. Hate to tell you folks, but, Harry Potter is just a book. It is not the bible. >>>> I honestly agree that Harry Potter is not Christian on a large scale. I don't mean that it's immoral or anything of that sort, but that it is not meant to be a treatise on Christianity and the bible. Comparisons between Harry and Jesus I think are much more rooted in the archetypes of literature (the hero/savior figure). The fact that Harry is the savior of the wizarding world and so there is a literary connection there, but Luke Skywalker is like the savior of the rebels in Star Wars, but he isn't a standard allegorical symbol of Christ. Christianity has had a historically distinct impression on the Western World (a fact I'm fairly certain has been discussed here) so these ideas and archetypes may have initially grown out of this. So I think JKR's perception of a hero may be influenced by these ideas, but it is the same way all western writers are (subconciously). In other words, I agree that Harry Potter is not meant to be a complete allegory of the bible, but I do feel it can be interpreted that way by some mainly because a great many stories with the same components can be read that way whether they are meant to be or not. They're things that we see over and over again that are almost not even registered in our minds anymore. I do not think it is meant to convert the masses as you said nor is it suggestign that everyone should be Christian. I think it's more the mythological background of the bible not the theological/belief background of it. And I am a practicing Catholic so it isn't as though I don't want this to be true because it would upset my love of the books (just to add a bit of perspective). I mean the books were up for banning in my fornmer elementary school, but it was for the violence factor not the religious one. We talked about it a great deal in my religion classes in high school and it is not deemed (by my religion teachers anyhow) as a "christian" book. This means that they didn't feel there was anything wrong with it in a literary sense (one of the nuns who taught me religion was also my English teach junior year where I wrote a paper on Harry Potter as a hero compared with Achilles... she mentioned really liking the HP books as fun literature), but if I suggested it was a biblical allegory (we did talk about some actual ones) they wouldn't have gone for it. I don't see the direct correlation I suppose that would make Harry = Jesus. Especially since I can't see who else would fit into this allegory. Lindsay ~~~~~ I once saw a forklift lift a crate of forks. And it was way too literal for me! ~Mitch Hedberg From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 6 18:47:46 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 19:47:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: LV and "Reflected" AK curse In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050506184746.155.qmail@web26308.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128563 Kizor: "What this can't account for is why LV wasn't trying to kill Lily, who was an active Order member. That may have just been a plot point. In any case, it's pretty clear what took out the house. The mighty wizard casts a potent spell which goes awry big time, the end result is a massive burst of unfocused magical power; hence, boom. The same principle was at work when Pettigrew escaped Sirius." Hells: I think it's all to do with Harry (and James before him) being the heir of Gryffindor. For some unknown reason (previous prophecy?) Voldemort, the last Slytherin wants to get rid of the last Gryffindors. Lily wasn't related to Gryffindor by blood and therefore didn't need to die. On the second point, I think it was baby Harry who somehow blew up the house. In PS Petunia didn't want to leave him alone in the house "And come back and find the house in ruins?". In PoA it says "It had been a long time since he'd lost control and made something explode. He couldn't afford to let it happen again." From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 20:51:38 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 20:51:38 -0000 Subject: Snape as a foil (Was: Snape- Universal Teacher - Universal Story) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128564 Steve (bboyminn)wrote: > I've been reading the many posts on Snape and whether he is an > effective teacher or not, and something occurred to me. > > I appeal to our resident authority, Shaun, to confirm or deny my > statement, but doesn't Professor Snape make an appearance in every > single British School Boy story ever written? Of course, he appears > under many different names, but isn't it pretty much standard fare for there to be one very unpleasant teacher in the school to act as the Hero's foil, nemisis, and antagonist? Carol responds: Not being an authority on English schoolboys or the literature about them, I'm not responding to your main question, just the defination of a literary term, "foil." A foil serves as a kind of mirror to another character, often but not always the protagonist. Usually the foil is of the same sex and age as the character he or she mirrors and is placed in similar circumstances but reacts differently. As someone in another thread pointed out, Luna is a foil to Hermione (and I expect we'll see more of that in HBP, perhaps in relation to ancient runes). Snape has at least two foils in books 3-5, Sirius Black (as a schoolboy from a Dark Wizard background and as a damaged adult) and Remus Lupin (as a teacher with a dark secret). Snape's childhood seems to have been as unpleasant as Harry's, but we don't know much about it and the contrast to Harry is less important than the conflict between them which is preventing both of them from serving the Order to the best of their ability. (Harry's chief foil, IMO, is the young Tom Riddle: similar to Harry in background, appearance, and potential, but very different in his actions and choices.) Carol From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Fri May 6 19:47:15 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 20:47:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Felix Felicis: A Summary of Current Ideas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050506194715.54947.qmail@web26307.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128565 Lupinlore wrote: > 2) A spell. If so it would serve the same purpose as above. But JKR's spells tend to be verbs in the active singular, e.g. "Exspecto Patronum" means "I await the protector" and "Accio" translates as "I summon." Thus I don't think it's likely to be a spell. < Hells: The trouble with this argument is that you are supporting it with "I" spells, eg, "I want the thing" and "I want protection". These should naturally be in the active singular. How about spells that would affect the other person? Such as Bat bogey hex, jelly legs, etc. Lupinlore: > I wouldn't want to bet on anything at this point. Based purely on patterns in JKR's writing, the most likely answer is that he is an auror who will be the new DADA teacher and probably also teach Harry Occlumency. < Hells: I think the new DADA will be the real Mad Eye Moody; after all he probably still hasn't taught them what Dumbledore wanted him to, and he's had a year to recover after his ordeal in GoF. Dumbledore will definitely want someone he can trust and it can't hurt to have a paranoid ex-auror around. There is a popular theory floating about that the 7 potion bottles in Snape's task in PS = the 7 DADA teachers. The "twins at first sight, but different inside" (paraphrased) would support this, 2 DADAs that look alike, but are different people inside. From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Fri May 6 19:17:28 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 15:17:28 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: The Final Confrontation References: Message-ID: <427BC2C8.000001.03684@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 128566 Eric wrote: > I want to see Lord V _suffer_ first. TK -- TigerPatronus said: > Or afterward. See the other thread about how maybe HP and LV won't actually die, but HP might sacrifice his *magic* to destroy LV's magic. Thus Lord Thingy lives out his days as muggle, being muggly, doing mugglicious things. < Donna says: Knowing how much LV hates muggles, I would say that living a life as a muggle in the muggle world would, indeed, be "worse than death" for LV. Donna From sara.dietz at erac.com Fri May 6 19:51:30 2005 From: sara.dietz at erac.com (Dietz, Sara A) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 14:51:30 -0500 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128567 >From http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128530 by TK - TigerPatronus: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? ? FRED WEASLEY 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? ? GODRIC GRYFFINDOR 3. What is Lily's big secret? ? HER EYES (AND PETUNIA'S) HOLD SPECIAL POWERS, WHICH SHE PASSED TO HARRY 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? ? SNAPE 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? ? NO ONE 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? ? AMELIA "MADAME" BONES 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? ? DUMBLEDORE'S PENSIEVE 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? ? YES 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? ? YES 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? ? 7 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Percy Weasley will be the new potions teacher; he will be out of his MOM job, and possibly an outcast for siding with Fudge-DD is notorious for hiring the outcasts/oddballs. This is how Harry (and Neville) will continue potions after his none too stellar Potions OWL and for Percy to redeem himself. 2. Neville will get his own wand (Holly, quite stiff, 13 inches long. Core of a single Augurey feather), one "...that chooses the wizard..." not one that was inherited from his dad. By doing this he will continue his progress in DADA, thus gaining confidence and getting over his fear of Snape. 3. The trio (plus Neville) will learn to become Animagi with help from Peter Pettigrew (his redemption). My guess as to the animals are: Hermione: Horse, Ron: Bear, Neville: Eagle and Harry: Lion 4. It will be determined that Harry is a direct descendent of Godric Gryffindor-heir of Gryffindor! JKR says on her site in FAQ "...that a discovery Harry made in COS foreshadows something that he finds out in HBP." (Fawkes bringing the sword of Gryffindor to his aid in the chamber) Also interesting that Ronald means "advisor to the King". 5. Harry will be elected/selected/chosen based on his direct relationship to Godric Gryffindor, the HBP, to lead the fight against LV. Harry which is derived from Harold, means Army Ruler. Thank you, have a great weekend, Sdietz74 (Sara) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri May 6 21:35:28 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 21:35:28 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128568 Hickengruendler: My predictions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? - I know very well that my answer is not very original, but I think it will be old Albus. Harry Potter is at least partly a heroes journey, and in those the mentor always dies, and I don't think this will be an exception. And book 6 would be the best moment for it, since the situation before book seven would seem pretty hopeless, which I think it should to make the finale victory brighter. Therefore Dumbledore gets my vote (I consider him the most important character after the Trio, and I don't think anyone of the Trio will die and certainly not yet). But I will add to my prediction, that he will sacrifice himself for one or more of the good guys or die of natural causes. (Natural causes is also if he gets a heart attack while saving Harry from Voldie). He will not be killed by any villain. I also think that we (and therefore Harry) will attend the funeral, and this is why the graveyard at Hogwarts is important. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) - Another unoriginal answer, but I vote for Godric Gryffindor. There is a trace of a Godric Gryffindor storyline in CoS, with him being the owner of the sword and the hat, and I think this could be the point that will be explored more in HBP. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) - I really don't think that some secret will be revealed. My guess is that her parents were killed by Voldemort and that this leaded to the rift between Petunia and Lily. But I'm not sure if that does count as a secret. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? - A new character, and to be precise, the lion man from the snippet from JKR's website. He is a descendent of Godric Gryffindor (the Half- Blood Prince) and through him, Harry will learn about Godric and maybe even the other founders. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? - Ginny, but I'm not looking forward to it. There has to be a reason why she was constantly compared to Cho in OotP, even dowm to their Quidditch skills. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? - Amelia Bones. None of those who were openly against Dumbledore in OotP will have a chance now. But Amelia always remained neutral, if not pro Dumbledore, and she already had a pretty important office in OotP (much more so than Arthur). Therefore her being promoted to Minister seems not unlikely. If not her, than a completely new character, because everyone else we know was either against Dumbledore or to unimportant in the Ministry. But my vote is for Amelia. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? - Something with which Dumbledore conjures all this green smoke. Beyond this, I have no idea. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? - Yes, he will. And he will because he passed his OWL with an O, not because of any other reason. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? - No. He will get an OWL in Potions, but he will not continue the subject. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? - DADA, Potions, Transfiguration, Charms, Herbology and Care of Magical Creatures. Making 6. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. I think that the happy reason for Harry to leave the Dursleys early is a wedding. Bill and Fleur will marry. The wedding will be the prologue of the book, similar to the QWC in GoF, and JKR will use it to introduce important themes and characters of the book. And as a bonus, we will learn that Fleur is pregnant. 2. Percy will not attend the wedding. He still hasn't returned to his family. We will learn that he, too, lost his job, and now either is jobless or has some job at the very bottom. He will regret his behaviour, but is to proud to return. However, he will prove himself around the end of the book and will do something heroic, possibly saving Ron. 3. After the Dementor incident, Dudley is now nicer to Harry (he needed some time to relaise what exactly Harry has done). However, Harry doesn't believe him and thinks Dudley has ulterior motives, which is not the case. They will not made up, living this plot open for book 7. 4. Draco will make a step to become really evil. He wants revenge because Harry sent Lucius to jail, and now he can't hide behind Lucius anymore, anyway. He has used the summer holidays to learn more about the Dark Arts and becomes a serious opponent again, not as powerful as Harry, but on the same level as most DA members (including Ron). By the end of the book, he will have killed someone (possibly a Weasley) and left Hogwarts to join the Death Eaters. 5. Neville will continue to step out of his parents shadow. The memory charm theory is IMO still intact. By the end of the book, the memory charm on him is broken, not by any magic, but by the fact that Neville trained his memory and continued to work as hard as in OotP, and he will remember something crucial. His grandmother will die during the book, and Dumbledore (or if he's already dead McGonagall) will allow Neville to spend the summer holidays at Hogwarts, because they don't want Voldemort to get him or the information he has. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 6 21:36:46 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 21:36:46 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: <20050506180036.40780.qmail@web20021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128569 > Pippin: > Because we don't know what Sirius's frame of reference is, > we don't know whether he was alluding to the lines, "Remember > Christ our Savior was born on Christmas Day" or not. Rebecca : > I have to disagree. I think that, though it's not directly > stated, that we the audience are absolutely meant to interpret > it that way and that to try to interpret it any other way is > really, really stretching. Why? Imagine you're a Thai Buddhist, with no idea about Christianity at all, or an Indonesian Muslim, or an Israeli Jew. Why would it be stretching to imagine that the audience is not meant to pick up the Christian reference? Or do you truly suspect that the reference to this song is sowing the seeds of Christianity in the reader? Or that you are a non-English speaker. If your idea is correct, a translator has no other choice than pick up a nation Christmas Carol with the same kind of reference. Not only here, but in all kinds of other things as well. Otherwise the allegory would be ruined. Does anybody know if JKR judges translations on the right use of Christian imagery? Gerry From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Fri May 6 22:21:50 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 22:21:50 -0000 Subject: Nicholas Flamel and book 6 snippet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128570 > > Barmaid now: > > > > Perhaps that is where the cemetery JKR has told us in on the grounds > > will come in..... hmmmmmmmmm. > > > > > > Or maybe you just have to dig deeper (in the pensieve) to find them, > perhaps Harry so far has only seen the ones recently placed in the > pensieve, that's why he sees Snapes memories and not any others that > someone else may have left in the pensieve, and in DD's office. > Anyway, what is this about a cemetery? I have heard nothing of this. > > > Chys, curious. Barmaid again: On the DVD of PoA there is an interview with JKR and Alfonso Cuaron in which they discuss the fact that he wanted to put a cemetery somewhere on the grounds and she said he could not because there is a cemetery somewhere in or around the castle and it will come into play later. (Movie of course is not canon, but interview is, right) From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 23:12:28 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 23:12:28 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128572 Betsy: Right - so I'll throw my hat into the ring. Anything to be called a HP-ster! >>tigerpatronus: >>Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): >1. Who will be the most major character to die?< Fleur Delacour >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince?< Severus Snape :) >3. What is Lily's big secret?< She can see if someone is truly eeevilll. (Like the Shadow, she knows.) >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher?< Victor Krum >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship?< Ginny >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic?< Madam Bones >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover?< A pensieve (I'm getting kinda boring here, huh?) >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions?< YES! Because he legitimately earned a place in the class. >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions?< Yes! Snape will be astounded. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get?< Six (Charms, Transfiguration, Herbology, DADA, Potions, CoMC) >>Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Fleur and Bill will get married (and she will die as the honorary Weasley - poor Bill). 2. The Old Lion Guy will turn out to be a relative of the Weasleys - - some cousin or something. 3. Draco will become good! Meaning he'll stand against Voldemort, not that he'll start a widows and orphans fund or something. (Hey, I'd rather be a happy HPster than a depressed one.) 4. Some horrible incident will occur leaving Dumbledore completely out of reach (though not dead) AND... 5. ...the Dursley home will be compromised leaving Harry with no safe haven for the summer between his sixth and seventh year! Bu-bu- bummm!! Cliff-hanger. Betsy From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 6 23:24:16 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 06 May 2005 23:24:16 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools (was I saw (more than) three ships ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128573 >>Betsy wrote: >I do not think Hogwarts is a "Christian" school - anymore than Eaton is.< >>Karen: >I hate to throw a spanner in again, but Eton most definitely is a Christian school. Most British Public schools are.< Betsy: D'oh! And I even mis-spelled Eton. *facepalm* Well - I wasn't pretending to be an expert on all things British. (Or if I was I've been well and truly exposed, thanks to that darn Karen (and I should *so* get points for that Scooby reference).) So, Eton is a Christian school, Hogwarts is not. But I still say the WW of Britian has a Christian influence on its culture just as the Muggle world of Britian does. Betsy From jaanise at hello.lv Sat May 7 01:06:52 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JaanisE) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 04:06:52 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione becomes animagus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c552a1$0ed8d1f0$0fc6f554@janis> No: HPFGUIDX 128574 -----Original Message----- From: GEO --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, K G wrote: > I love this theory. Harry studys and becomes a legilimens, Hermione an anamagus, and Ron.... I still like the theory that he is a true seer. GEO: As for whats going to happen to Ron, I for one think he will have the exception of being the average man within the trio in contrast to Harry and Hermione -------------------------- Jaanis: Another idea would be that Ron becomes a very good Keeper/Quidditch player. :) From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Sat May 7 01:20:11 2005 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 01:20:11 -0000 Subject: The facets of redeeming Tom Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128575 <> I realize this is out of the blue and we haven't been introduced, but I post/lurk at HPfGU and HP for Seekers. I wanted to reply to this comment you made on HPfGU. Suffice to say, I agree with the statement above. Actually, I think that may be the purpose of the prophecy, at least partly. What better way to "vanquish" a *Dark* Lord than to remove his darkness? Something that would be rather amusing to me that so many out there are near obsessed pondering who 'Harry' will end up with... when it might not be about 'Harry's' lovelife at all. But Tom Riddle's. Although, *how* would Tom be redeemed if that is one of the intentions of the storyline? My guess is that Tom, through Harry (that piece of Tom inside of Harry), would have to experience that thing which the "Dark Lord knows not" (as DD says, "has none at all"). In essence, give Tom what he apparently didn't have or "know" before. If that thing is Love as popularly speculated, then, Tom would have to experience (or "know") love. But how? Or from whom? It's possible we could learn more about background of Tom's family (most likely, his mother's background)... something that Dumbledore could be showing Harry first hand in that Pensieve (Slytherin Family pensieve possibly? Could it have Riddle's mother's memories in it?). Thus showing Tom that he was very loved. Although Tom may have realized his mother loved him, he never had the chance to experience it from what we understand. She died when he was born (of course, I have a whole conspiracy theory that his mother had been murdered... and by members of that "true family" he mentions in GOF, but that's o/t). Tom believed his mother loved a man far unworthy of her. Considering what apparently happened, what can't wholly blame Tom for his bitterness. Not only for the fact she was a pureblood witch, but also Riddle Sr. wasn't much of a husband or even human being in general it seems. Something I could understand Tom grew exceedingly bitter over (and this bitterness probably aggravated by a dark mentor or mentors. Fuelling his bigotry). I believe this is what was one of the earlier catalysts of Tom denegrating human emotions (weaknesses), moreso Love. Love is what made Tom's mother fall prey to an apparent libertine, love blinded her to his "filthy" muggleness. Thus, Tom likely vowed to never succumb to such weakness ("There is only power and those too weak to seek it"). Of course, Love seems to be 'the power', possibly the greatest power ("More wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than forces of nature..."). "The one with 'the power'..." But this 'new' Tom, the one reborn in Harry Potter... he's "weak" (as the old Tom would put it). Or at least, he has the opportunity this time around to be "weak". This 'weakness' would/will make Tom more powerful than he ever was as Voldemort (and we know how 'power- hungry' Tom always was). ...."but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not" This could be splitting hairs, simply "knowing" love (regardless of who it's directed at) certainly could be more than enough, but I just think it would be JKR's sort of irony that besides falling in love, JKR may push the irony further and have Tom do what he'd once castigated his mother for. Fall in love with someone 'unworthy' (my guess it would be a non-pureblood, but Ginny being one of the "blood traitor" Weasleys could probably work as well). Perhaps this is too simplistic (and cheeky, but JKR is a cheeky one, isn't she?), JKR being an admitted Christian... I wouldn't be surprised she's not unfamiliar with the concept of "knowing" someone as it's eluded in the Bible. For example, confused about the angel Gabriel's statement saying she shall be the Virgin mother of Christ, Mary says.... How shall this be, seeing I **know not** a man? (Luke 1:34) There are many other examples of this interpretation of "know" in the Bible. Perhaps "knows" as it is in the prophecy is a bit of a double entendre? It's describing the "Dark Lord" never experiencing love.... but also never having the opportunity to *literally* experience it? Voldemort was never in love, never married and hence never experienced the act of love with the other sex (as Christian doctrine would dictate, the Dark Lord never "knew" anyone). Is "knows" a clue from JKR? I'm not suggesting JKR will ever bring sex or even marriage sex (at least not directly) into the HP books ... but perhaps she's telling us, in order for Harry (Tom) to fulfill the prophecy, he (Tom) needs to love someone of the opposite sex (enough to be marriagable material, thus able to "know" her and eventually "be fruitful and multiply")? As progressive as HP and JKR are, I don't think she will bring in a homosexual relationship... so, in this case, the love would have to be a 'her'. Could the prophecy be indirectly including this elusive 'her', this Bride, someone for Tom Riddle to "know"? In general regards to marriage, as I'm sure you're aware, 'to give one's hand' to someone, means to offer the person to be married (Usually the parents offer the hand of their daughter, the bride, to the bridegroom). The bride and bridegroom also offer their hands to each other to bear the rings. Could this "the hand of the other" also be connected to "knows"? "Either must die at *the hand of the other* for neither can live while the other survives." Could the prophecy, literally, be describing marriage and this marriage-love as the 'vanquisher' of the Dark Lord's darkness? Alchemical marriage and otherwise? Voldemort already experienced at least one marriage, but an abnormal one (the resurrection ritual at the end of GOF. A marriage with no bride). Thus in order to 'vanquish' darkness, Tom Riddle needs to be 'married' (or at least, experiences the love of a bridegroom) and/or have a 'bride' in order to 'vanquish' his shadow, Voldemort? Vanquishing the darkness of the Dark Lord, all you'd have left is Lord. 'Expecto Patronum' indeed. Of course, that line of the prophecy ("neither can live while the other survives") makes it sound like the bride and bridegroom may have to kill each other ('neither can live while the other survives'). Which doesn't seem to hold true with a marriage metaphor, unless it was a dramatic ending a la "Romeo and Juliet". Of course, marriage vows are usually "till death do us part". In essence, death = the dissolve of a marriage, vice versa? There's also this line in the Bible that intrigues me (both about marriage, marriage partners and death): But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:17). Perhaps JKR's prophecy is stating that once Harry (or Tom) and his "Eve" "eat from the tree of knowledge", he and "Eve" will "die". Cast out of the Garden, lose their immortality? But what is the "Garden" of HP? The Wizarding World? I could perceive Harry/Tom, after learning the entire truth ("knowledge of good and evil") of the Wizarding World, may voluntarily choose to leave it along with his Bride. Then again, crossing into the Underworld has been symbolised numerous times throughout the series. Perhaps Harry (Tom) and "Eve" will cross-over ("die", in a sense), but return to the land of the Mortal (Leave the land of immortality, aka the Garden aka Paradise, and return to the place where people can die). ~annu From EyeMelodius at hotmail.com Sat May 7 02:07:29 2005 From: EyeMelodius at hotmail.com (annunathradien) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 02:07:29 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128576 TigerPatronus: > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Neville Longbottom > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Gryffindor's son. A direct ancestor of someone currently in the story (I'd guess Harry and thus he's the Heir of Gryffindor) > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily magically aided her sister to help her conceive. My spec is that Petunia was barren or nearly barren, thus out of total desperation she went to Lily for help when all muggle options proved fruitless. Thus Dudley is something of a homunculus (those who've seen "Full Metal Alchemist" have a vague idea to what I'm referring), although he is all human and carries the blood of Petunia & Vernon (but with Lily's magical intervention). This 'blood alchemy' (or "ancient magic" as Voldie called it) is also (in theory) incidentally what Lily used to protect Harry from Voldemort Halloween 1981. She researched the magic because of Petunia's request, this request inadvertantly helped saved Harry... I just love the symmetry of this spec. ;) > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Kingsley Shacklebolt > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, but with possible feelings/confusion later on in regards to Hermione. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Salazar Slytherin's pensieve (passed down through the family line, but eventually somehow landed in Dumbledore's care) > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All of them, but Astronomy. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. 1. Neville will give an interview to "The Quibbler" similar to Harry's in OOTP. 2. Voldemort will learn the whole prophecy. 3. Rita Skeeter will get her revenge on Hermione. 4. Harry will see inside of Azkaban. 5. Moaning Myrtle will return. ~annu From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Sat May 7 02:07:33 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 02:07:33 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128577 Bonnie, okay I'll take a stab. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin is next I think. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Victor Krum :) 3. What is Lily's big secret? I think we have the main jist, her love for Harry. But I think we will find out she was an auror and a really great witch, especially with charms, and that some special charm was used to help protect Harry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The "Old Lion Guy", who will be a brand new character. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He may have another girlfriend, but eventually it will be Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Someone we don't know yet. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? DD's pensive. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. He will get bigtime into herbology. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven. Predictions: 1. Harry will resist killing LV, although he may have to in the end. 2. Hermione and Ron will get together. 3. Harry will live, LV will die. 4. The twins will become very, very rich. And help Harry in some big way. 5. Dudley's opinion of Harry will improve somewhat. From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sat May 7 02:44:53 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 02:44:53 -0000 Subject: Is Luna meant to be a passing romance for Ron? (Was Letter to Victor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128578 Casey wrote: Totally agree with this. I think it's good too, that a girl is more attracted to him than the famous Harry Potter. It will be a much needed ego boost. I'll be interested to see just how Hermione reacts. Janet Anderson replied: You and me both. I have mentioned before, and will mention again, that I think Ron and Luna will date, if only for awhile, and that it will be a wake-up call to Hermione that if she wants something, she'd better a) make up her mind and b) speak up herself or someone else will. (Note that this is the same thing she said to Ron, which is, I think, typical of Hermione's ability to see the shortcomings of others more clearly than her own.) ***Marcela replies now: The only problem I find with this theory is that Luna was not developed as a flat, linear character, as Viktor or Cho were. For Luna Lovegood to be a 'test drive' for Ron, she's quite well developed. The readers are somewhat emotionally invested in her character. JKR didn't do so with Cho, neither with Viktor. The readers (and Harry) don't know much about those two. While with Luna, we already know that her mom passed away in front of her in a tragic accident, her dad is the editor of the Quibbler, she lives close to Ron's home, she's Ginny's friend, she's crushing on Ron, she's spacey but smart, she doesn't care what people think of her, and won't remain silent if she wants her opinion be heard. And showed bravery in the face of danger, and loyalty to her friends. That's quite a lot of character development for just a fleeting first romance with Ron... Marcela From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 7 02:56:38 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 02:56:38 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128579 Tigerpatronus: Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each). Alla: Love prediction games. :-) TP: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Alla: In HBP - everything points to Dumbledore, but I don't think that it will be him. I think that one or more Weasleys will probably die in HBP. TP: 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Alla: Godric Gryffindor, who could be the Old Lion guy. TP: 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Alla: I am inclined to say that there will be no big secret, unless we will indeed count research of "blood protection magic" as big secret. TP: 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Alla: The Old Lion Guy, if he is not Godric Gryffindor. If he is Godric, then new character TP: 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Alla: he will not have romantic relationship with Hermione, that I am positive of, unless Ron is dead at the end. Anybody else is fair game for now. I would say Ginny is most likely, but Luna or Susan Bones or any "just name" character are also possibilities. TP: 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Alla: Amelia Bones TP: 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Alla: Somebody's Pensieve. TP: 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Alla: 99.99% certainty. TP: 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Alla: Yes. TP: 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Alla: He definitely got the major ones, including Potions, otherwise- no idea. Tigerpatronus: Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. Alla: 1. We will see Sirius again in some shape or form in the present of the books. 2. Ron will be discovered to have some kind of interesting ability. Being a Seer seems likely enough to me. 3. Harry will demonstrate Metamorphmagus ability. 4. Remus will be cured . ( Sigh, OK it is my wish more than a prediction, but we do have some possible hint for that, right? After all Gilderoy did describe it in his book, even he was not the one who actually did it. :-)) 5. Dumbledore will give Harry some kind of tutoring. TP: Comments? Suggestions? Alla: That was fun. Thanks! JMO, Alla From ABadgerFan2 at msn.com Sat May 7 03:29:56 2005 From: ABadgerFan2 at msn.com (abadgerfan2) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 03:29:56 -0000 Subject: MY STAB AT THE HBP PREDICTIONS CHALLENGE Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128580 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. The most major character to die? PROF LUPIN 2. The Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) GODRIC GRYFFINDOR 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) DETAILS OF THE MAGIC SHE USED TO PROTECT HARRY AS A BABY 4. The new DADA teacher? DUMBLEDORE 5. Harry's romantic relationship? HE GRADUALLY SSES THAT HERMOINE IS MORE THAN JUST A FRIEND, WHICH CAUSES PROBLEMS BECAUSE RON LIKES HER TOO 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? MADAM BONES 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? PENSIEVE OF FOUNDER RAVENCLAW'S MEMORIES OF DIFFICULTIES BETWEEN GRYFFINDOR (LION GUY) AND SLYTHERIN (SNAKE GUY) 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? YES 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? NO 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? FOUR Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. TRELAWNEY DISAPPEARS OVER THE SUMMER 2. EVENTUALLY WE SEE THAT VOLDEMORT HAS RETRIEVED THE FULL PROPHECY BY TORTURING AND KILLING HER 3. DUMBLEDORE TEACHES OCCLUMENCY AND ADVANCED DADA TO HARRY 4. NEVILLE FINALLY HAS HIS OWN WAND, MAKES GREAT ADVANCES WITH IT, AND GAINS SELF-CONFIDENCE 5. DARK LORD GETS DRACO TO SET UP CAPTURE OF HERMOINE, WHICH THEN LURES HARRY INTO AN ENCOUNTER W VOLDEMORT AND DEATH EATERS 6. HARRY FINDS A WAY TO COMMUNICATE AT LEAST BRIEFLY WITH SIRIUS, WHO INSPIRES HARRY ATCRUCIAL MOMENTS (KIND OF LIKE THE OBI-WAN VOICE THAT AIDS LUKE SKYWALKER IN STAR WARS) Jim From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sat May 7 04:15:19 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 04:15:19 -0000 Subject: Is Luna meant to be a passing romance for Ron? or for Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128581 Marcela For Luna Lovegood to be a 'test drive' for Ron, she's quite well developed. with Luna, we already know that 1. her mom passed away in front of her in a tragic accident, 2. her dad is the editor of the Quibbler, 3. she lives close to Ron's home, 4. she's Ginny's friend, 5. she's crushing on Ron, 6. she's spacey but smart, 7. she doesn't care what people think of her, and 8. won't remain silent if she wants her opinion be heard. 9. And showed bravery in the face of danger,and 10. loyalty to her friends. That's quite a lot of character development for just a fleeting first romance with Ron... tinglinger Sounds more like a romance with Harry to me. Point by point - 1. hmmm, who else's mom died in front of a child? 2. Harry benefited from that more than anyone 3. Not grounds for a ship 4. I am not so sure about the friend part. Ginny seems to try to share a private joke with Harry at Luna's expense each time the three (or more) of them meet 5. I am not so sure Luna knows what a crush means. She may not be as ditsy as some here make her out to be, but I dont see a relationship developiong - at least not on Ron's part 6. She is a ravenclaw after all, and we dont know whether she is spacy for a reason 7. Neither is Harry - Ron on the other hand cares a great deal what people think about him. 8. So is Hermione and Ron's alleged ship with her hasn't blossomed at all 9. Interestingly enough, she also showed CLARITY OF THOUGHT at that time - indicating that she is not as ditsy as she seems, and when she HAS to be clear, like in battle, she is. 10. What friends are those? I would like to see an example of a friend outside of rooting for a quidditch team. My key argument against a Ron/Luna ship is that JKR will have to waste far too many pages to make RL believable, whereas all the pieces are almost in place too make an albeit temporary Harry/Luna ship far easier to explain. Point by point again - 1. If Luna's mom died trying to cure luna from something, then Luna has a lot more in common with Harry than Ron ever will. 2.If her dad is killed by Voldemort or Goyle in retaliation for publishing the original Quibbler interview with Harry theen they are both orphans and, besides the common ground they already have, they have great reasons to go back to the MoM and the veil again. Ron Ginny and Hermione, who is terrified of the veil, all have parents and havent suffered a loss. Why would they go back there? Was the veil for nought? 3. If her dad is killed then she can end up on the front lawn of privet drive riding on a thestral much more easily than going to the burrow. Harry has offered to help her TWICE - Ron barely knows who she is.... If she needs help she will go to Harry first. If you disagree, I would love to hear the arguments for this point. 4,5 The Weasley connection needs a lot more fleshing out at the cost of a lot of pages best used elsewhere. We already have the Harry connection. 6.Wonder if she will still be spacy after her dad dies -- i think that the spaciness enables her to cope with the loss of her mom. 7,8,9,10 still needs development to be plausible with Ron. So..... the Harry/Luna plot is FAR more along than Ron/Luna. Can JKR afford to spend more time developing a new distracting plot line when a perfectly fine one exists already? as with everything potterish these days we wont have long to wait. tinglinger who has many theories and character studies including a complete analysis of the Harry/Luna scene that got Harry off the bottom of his downward spiral and what that scene portends for HBP http:/groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 7 05:02:10 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 01:02:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: <128.5c584359.2fada5d2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128582 TP: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy. TP: 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A new character as yet unknown to us. TP: 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I'm not sure that she has a "big secret" per se. Maybe she was an unspeakable working in the D.O.M. TP: 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The old lion guy TP: 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think he might have a firtation with Susan Bones but that the more serious romance will be saved until book 7and it will be with Hermione. TP: 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones TP: 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Pensieve TP: 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes --he will have earned ii with an outstanding potion TP: 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes TP: 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 6 Tigerpatronus: Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Harry will find find Sirius' mirror and will put them to use in HBP. 2. We will find out Hermione's career choice. 3. Harry will have a birthday party thrown for him. 4. Hermione will learn to apparate and teach it to Harry and Ron. (possibly also Neville, Ginny and Luna) 5. Draco will attempt to free Lucius from Azkaban. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Sat May 7 05:16:23 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 05:16:23 -0000 Subject: Is Luna meant to be a passing romance for Ron? or for Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128583 I'm sorry, but I believe you've misunderstood my post. I was just saying that Luna's character was intensely more developed than Cho's or Viktor's, for it to support the conjectures those other posters were about: tha Luna was supposed/expected to be a passing romance for Ron. I wasn't pointing to a R/L ship. There is L->R in canon, but Ron has not shown any interest in her. Since you brought up H/L ship, it's my thinking that JKR's comment on the Neville/Luna ship can easily apply to H/L, too. >From the JKR's Site, Rumours section: "...Luna and Neville will hook up in HP&THBP The Luna/Neville shippers are much less vehement and scary than the Harry/Hermione, Ron/Hermione tribes, so I hope I won't receive too much hate mail for quashing this rumour. I see Neville and Luna as very different kinds of people and while they share a certain isolation within Hogwarts, I don't think that's enough to foster true love - friendship, perhaps, although I think that Neville would always find Luna's wilder flights of fancy alarming. ..." Harry has always thought that Luna's 'flights of fancy' were alarming, and he's felt pity for her. Besides, there's no canon evidence of Luna->Harry or Harry->Luna. Marcela --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > Marcela > > For Luna Lovegood to be a 'test drive' for Ron, she's quite > well developed. with Luna, we already know that > > 1. her mom passed away in front of her in a tragic accident, > 2. her dad is the editor of the Quibbler, > 3. she lives close to Ron's home, > 4. she's Ginny's friend, > 5. she's crushing on Ron, > 6. she's spacey but smart, > 7. she doesn't care what people think of her, and > 8. won't remain silent if she wants her opinion be heard. > 9. And showed bravery in the face of danger,and > 10. loyalty to her friends. > That's quite a lot of character development for just a fleeting first > romance with Ron... > > > tinglinger > Sounds more like a romance with Harry to me. > Point by point - > 1. hmmm, who else's mom died in front of a child? > 2. Harry benefited from that more than anyone > 3. Not grounds for a ship > 4. I am not so sure about the friend part. Ginny seems to try > to share a private joke with Harry at Luna's expense each time > the three (or more) of them meet > 5. I am not so sure Luna knows what a crush means. She may not > be as ditsy as some here make her out to be, but I dont see a > relationship developiong - at least not on Ron's part > 6. She is a ravenclaw after all, and we dont know whether she > is spacy for a reason > 7. Neither is Harry - Ron on the other hand cares a great deal > what people think about him. > 8. So is Hermione and Ron's alleged ship with her hasn't blossomed > at all > 9. Interestingly enough, she also showed CLARITY OF THOUGHT at that > time - indicating that she is not as ditsy as she seems, and when > she HAS to be clear, like in battle, she is. > 10. What friends are those? I would like to see an example of a > friend outside of rooting for a quidditch team. > > My key argument against a Ron/Luna ship is that JKR will have to waste > far too many pages to make RL believable, whereas all the pieces are > almost in place too make an albeit temporary Harry/Luna ship far > easier to explain. > Point by point again - > 1. If Luna's mom died trying to cure luna from something, then Luna > has a lot more in common with Harry than Ron ever will. > 2.If her dad is killed by Voldemort or Goyle in retaliation for > publishing the original Quibbler interview with Harry theen they are > both orphans and, besides the common ground they already have, they > have great reasons to go back to the MoM and the veil again. Ron Ginny > and Hermione, who is terrified of the veil, all have > parents and havent suffered a loss. Why would they go back there? Was > the veil for nought? > 3. If her dad is killed then she can end up on the front lawn of > privet drive riding on a thestral much more easily than going to the > burrow. Harry has offered to help her TWICE - Ron barely knows who she > is.... If she needs help she will go to Harry first. If you disagree, > I would love to hear the arguments for this point. > 4,5 The Weasley connection needs a lot more fleshing out at the cost > of a lot of pages best used elsewhere. We already have the Harry > connection. > 6.Wonder if she will still be spacy after her dad dies -- i think that > the spaciness enables her to cope with the loss of her mom. > 7,8,9,10 still needs development to be plausible with Ron. > > So..... the Harry/Luna plot is FAR more along than Ron/Luna. Can JKR > afford to spend more time developing a new distracting plot line when > a perfectly fine one exists already? > > as with everything potterish these days we wont have long to wait. > > tinglinger > who has many theories and character studies including a complete > analysis of the Harry/Luna scene that got Harry off the bottom > of his downward spiral and what that scene portends for HBP > > http:/groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com Sat May 7 06:33:44 2005 From: ms_melanie1999 at yahoo.com (Miss Melanie) Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 23:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] MY STAB AT THE HBP PREDICTIONS CHALLENGE In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050507063344.9779.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128584 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. The most major character to die? Well I'm guessing it will be more than one I mean it is a full blown out war at this point. My guess? Dudley and Petunia will be the first. :) 2. The Half-Blood Prince? Hmmm I think it's Remus...but I don't know. 3. What is Lily's big secret? I guess just that she chose Petunia to be the one to look after Harry and that we will know why :). 4. The new DADA teacher? Amelia Bones..don't ask me why though. LOL 5. Harry's romantic relationship? probably Hermione :) 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Lucius Malfoy 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? YES 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Ummm LOL somehow I doubt it. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? three or four Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Petunia is a witch 2. One of the Weasley's will die..probably Charlie or Bill (whichever gets the most action this book). 3. Molly Weasley will consider turning over information to the dark side in order to make sure that her family is safe. 4. Remus will have kept in touch with Harry over the summer. 5. Draco will inherit Grimmauld Place 6. We will meet Andromeda 7. Pettigrew will return 8. Lucius will only be in Azkaban for like a day 9. Percy will return to his family. 10. Someone in the order will betray them. Melanie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 7 07:07:48 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 07:07:48 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts School... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > > Pippin: > > Because we don't know what Sirius's frame of reference is, > > we don't know whether he was alluding to the lines, "Remember > > Christ our Savior was born on Christmas Day" or not. > > Rebecca : > > I have to disagree. I think that, though it's not directly > > stated, that we the audience are absolutely meant to interpret > > it that way and that to try to interpret it any other way is > > really, really stretching. Gerry: > Why? Imagine you're a Thai Buddhist, with no idea about Christianity > at all, or an Indonesian Muslim, or an Israeli Jew. Why would it be > stretching to imagine that the audience is not meant to pick up the > Christian reference? Or do you truly suspect that the reference to > this song is sowing the seeds of Christianity in the reader? > > Or that you are a non-English speaker. If your idea is correct, a > translator has no other choice than pick up a nation Christmas Carol > with the same kind of reference. Not only here, but in all kinds of > other things as well. Otherwise the allegory would be ruined. Does > anybody know if JKR judges translations on the right use of Christian > imagery? Geoff: Bear in mind though, that when JKR began to write the books, she did not foresee the impact and popularity they would have. I doubt whether she considered them being read widely beyond a UK-based audience - probably a younger one as well who would recognise these tings from their own cultural background. Returning to a point made recently about Harry being Christ, I have written to the group on several occasions on this topic over the last year or more. I have put together some pieces of previous postings and have edited them together in the hope that they might be of value to the discussion. So he goes (again!); I have said in the past that although HP is not overtly Christian, it reflects the views of its author, as did Tolkien's work; I do not necessarily look for direct comparisons to Christian teaching but feel that the mores expressed in the books will echo those views. This raises the whole question of what do we read into the stories of Harry Potter? Why did JKR write them? For her own satisfaction? Probably. To give pleasure to millions of people? In the event also probably. To be read at different levels of understanding. Yes - I might say in passing that one of my favourite books if "Winnie the Pooh" which has two distinct levels of understanding at least. Which then leads to the next thought. Are they books for children? Yes, but not children alone; for children at heart in the best meaning of this. Are they textbooks for faith to proselytise? No. There are signposts and pointers for those who look but I do not believe that they have been written deliberately to fit a pattern imposed by someone other than the author. There are three major series of books which are often discussed here on this forum, either directly or indirectly: Harry Potter, the Narnia books or Lord of the Rings. All these have been written by authors who profess to be Christians. The only allegorical books here are C.S.Lewis' series and he made no secret of the fact that they were intended as such. "The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe" is an overt allegory of the Christian story; Aslan is the son of the great Emperor over sea and represents Christ. Both JK Rowling and Tolkien have created universes which are not overtly Christian but which, through the beliefs of their writers have echoes of Christianity in their fabric. These books are not "message" books but labours of love. They are not mass produced books written to a template; I could name authors who have turned out massive numbers of books to very similar patterns which do not reflect any sort of ethical system. These three authors have written books which are timeless and "thumping good stories" which will continue to enthral readers of all ages in the future; they pit goodness against evil not in a black versus white scenario where everything is a foregone conclusion but with shades of grey which cast shadows and doubts on the final success of good. This is drawn from their own perception of good and evil which I believe is rooted in their faith. I have remarked on occasions before that I do not see JKR postulating a story line in which Harry is a Christ figure because that would fly in the face of her belief. Speaking as a Christian, he cannot be such a figure because my belief accepts Christ as God in human form, sinless, perfect so as to be able to die for the sins of the world in his human form. I see Harry as an everyman figure echoing our own journeys through life. I read the books firstly for pleasure; I like Harry. I see myself as I was many years ago, brash, impulsive, questioning, uncertain and certain that everything is black or white. The greys have come with age. I do not read them a priori in order to cross intellectual swords with others on the group. That is a spin off which can lead us into over-analysis and theorising which only drains the first fresh enjoyment of each book which we experienced as we came to it. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat May 7 07:41:57 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 07:41:57 -0000 Subject: Is Luna meant to be a passing romance for Ron? or for Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "templar1112002" wrote: > I'm sorry, but I believe you've misunderstood my post. > > I was just saying that Luna's character was intensely more developed > than Cho's or Viktor's, for it to support the conjectures those > other posters were about: tha Luna was supposed/expected to be a > passing romance for Ron. I would never say that Luna is just meant to be a passing romance for anyone. She is such a strong spiritual character that I think her primary role will be as a countervoice to hermione and as an advisor to Harry. That doesn't mean she can't have a secondary role as a love interest for either Ron or Harry. > I wasn't pointing to a R/L ship. There is L->R in canon, but Ron > has not shown any interest in her. You are right about Ron not showing any interest in her in OOTP, but that could change. And lets face it. For a guy, dating a girl you know is attracted to you is quite an ego boost regardless of whether or not you are as attracted to her. Guys find sure things comforting. We can be fragile like that :) I think dating Luna could be invaluable experience for Ron before he moves on to Hermione which I think is going to be his primary ship. and like someone else said, it could light a fire under hermione as well and force her to see that she isn't Ron's only option. besides Ron and Luna would be histerically funny together. > Harry has always thought that Luna's 'flights of fancy' were > alarming, and he's felt pity for her. I don't know about that. I always thought there seemed to be an undercurrent of serenity that Harry got off of Luna. For me, I think he found her comforting. she had reached a peace within herself that he hasn't found yet. she is comfortable in her own skin and I think she is going to help harry become comfortable in his. JMO, phoenixgod2000 From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Sat May 7 07:45:18 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 07:45:18 -0000 Subject: His Mother's Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, hells456 > > The real question in my mind is what exactly was significant in > > Book 5? > > Gerry: > > Well, I'd say her protection of Snape in the pensieve scene. In > that scene we see her do what she believes is right, regardless > of the people who are involved. She called two very popular guys > from her own house bullies, and she protected the impopular, ugly > Slytherin. She was the only one who went against these two. The > rest was laughing or looking on. That takes guts as well as a > strong moral conviction. > John: Yes, but there's more. The fact that Lily seemed to so despise James in that scene, yet was within two years willing to take up a fairly serious relationship with him, suggests that, even from an early age, Lily had that ability to forgive people and see in them the potential for change for the better. Something neither James, nor Snape (yet), could ever master, to their great detriment, it would seem. It is arguably something that Harry has not yet mastered either, and it could become important. Perhaps the other significant thing we are to be told about Lily (in book 7, wasn't it?) is a more profound example of this point? John. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat May 7 08:28:32 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 08:28:32 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128588 >> Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Cornelius Fudge. Now that LV has been outed, what better way of causing panic than the assassination of the MM? An owl from Narcissa, a blast from Bella, poof. Gone. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Well, I've guessed Trevor and Catlady (RPW), but Trevor has actually been mentioned in canon, so I'll go with him. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She was an Unspeakable, doing research on the thing-behind-the-locked- door. And she taught Aberforth everything he knows about Charms. ;o) Ok, just kidding on the last part. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Real Mad-Eye. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Tough one. Myrtle? Grawp? The giant squid? Hmm, I think he'll end up with Ginny, so for this book, I'll say No One. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Ah, that is the Spitoon of Storge. Nah, it's DD's Pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Oh, yes, what is life without Potions? > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Not sure, so I'll say Yes. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Hmm, just finished reading OoP tonight. Let's see: CoMC (E), Potions (E), DADA (E), Transfiguration (O), Herbology (A), Charms (A). He kind of bungled the rest (not that it was all his fault). > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1. His stay at 4PD will be short as he will be sent to Lupin's to study DADA. > 2. DD will stop in and teach him Occlumancy. > 3. DD will also find that he is a Legilamance, and will hone this skill. > 4. Theo Nott will want revenge for his dad, and join the good side. > 5. Grawp will be best giant at Hagrid and Olympe's wedding. Ginger, who will be "out of the office" for the weekend visiting her Mummy, and a Happy Mothers' Day wish to all Mothers on the list. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 09:55:36 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:55:36 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection, and Fawkes the Phoenix Message-ID: <427C9098.1090009@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128589 The personality of Albus Dumbledore and that of his faithful companion, Fawkes, seem to have much in common. JKR has stated that Dumbledore's patronus is a phoenix. That points to DD being much more of the Christ figure than Harry does: like Fawkes, DD has the power of reincarnation. However, I don't think DD is going to be re-incarnated as himself, in the way that Fawkes does. DD, as the avatar of good, is re-incarnated in another body/person, just as his opposite, Voldemort, is periodically reincarnated in a suitable person, as the avatar of evil. I just know that DD is going to sacrifice himself for the good of the WW before the end of VW11 is nigh. It seems quite logical to me that Harry is the next 'avatar of good' to follow Dumbledore. Dumbledore will not truly have left Hogwarts while those still faithful to him look to him for guidance, even from beyond the grave. JKR has stated that Harry will gain a new pet before the series ends, and that pet must surely be Fawkes. Harry has demonstrated his loyalty, and Fawkes has shown his affection for Harry. I think Fawkes has marked Harry as the next incarnation of good that he, Fawkes, will be loyal to. If this line of thought is correct, then Harry will survive and Voldemort will not. Voldemort's next incarnation will be Draco Malfoy's son, and Harry will have to teach a new pupil/avatar of good how to overcome the new avatar of evil........ digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 06/05/2005 From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 09:56:13 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 10:56:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427C90BD.5050200@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128590 tigerpatronus wrote: > > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? > 1. Lupin. Or maybe MacGonnagle 2. Godric Gryffindor 3. Not revealed until book 7 (Unspeakable working on power of Love) 4. A new character 5. A first tentative date with Ginny 6. Amos Diggory 7. DD's pensieve 8. Yes 9. Yes 10. 8 passes DADA - O; CoMC - EE; Charms - EE; Transfiguration - EE; Herbology - A History of Magic - A (due to legilimancy on Parvati); Astronomy - A (due to everybody getting a credit for this exam, owing to the interruption of Umbridge's attempt on Hagrid); Divination - A (how can the practical exam be marked accurately?) digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 06/05/2005 From sophierom at yahoo.com Sat May 7 15:16:58 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 15:16:58 -0000 Subject: Peter as Judas? (was: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way) In-Reply-To: <20050505114433.17490.qmail@web26302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128593 Hells wrote: > I took the christian references to be Dumbledore = all-seeing, all-knowing, all-powerful God, Harry = Christ the saviour who will sacrifice himself or part of himself to save wizardkind (hopefully to be reborn) and possibly Fawkes = the Holy Spirit, although I know nothing about the Holy Spirit except the name. Satan = Voldemort, and I hate to think who will be Judas... Sophierom now: I apologize if this has been suggested before (a quick search of the past 6 months' messages didn't yield anything, but surely this has been suggested before). Could not Peter Pettigrew act as a sort of Judas figure? He's already betrayed his friends, a betrayal that led to a sacrfice for the greater good (Lily's death). For his service, Peter has received his 30 pieces of silver in the form of a silver hand. I just wonder when he will attempt to give back the blood money, when he'll come to terms with the depth of his betrayal. I'm fairly confident that Peter will 1.) die before the series ends and 2.) have turned away from Voldemort, even if it's only just before he dies. Not only does the possible Judas allusion make me think that he'll regret his betrayal, but, as many before me have pointed out, he owes Harry a life debt after Harry saved his life in the Shrieking Shack. All the best, Sophie From cat_kind at yahoo.com Sat May 7 15:26:03 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 15:26:03 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128594 catkind: Here's my entry. I've made a few long-shots in the hope of bonus points! Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Peter Pettigrew 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A historical character, in the founders' time but not one of the founders. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She was an Unmentionable - I mean Unspeakable - I mean worked in the Dept of Mysteries. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Dumbledore 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? DD's pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yup. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Nope. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven, if get means Acceptable+: Transfig, Charms, Defence, Creatures, Potions, Astronomy, Herbology. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Lupin will turn out to be married. 2. Pettigrew will be a central character in this book, and will end up redeeming his life debt to save Harry and being killed for it. (That Pettigrew shows up is, I think, interview-canon.) 3. Felix Felicis is the lion man, an old friend of Dumbledore's who comes to teach Potions. 4. Dumbledore's Army will continue, and Slytherins will join too. 5. By the end of the book, Harry's side will have obtained a weapon, some kind of magical artefact which they plan to use against LV. catkind From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat May 7 15:53:50 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 08:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest: - Magda's entry In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050507155350.1497.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128595 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old > characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore will die. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) "Is" implies a current existence, like the "Prisoner of Azkaban" meant a still-alive-Sirius. Personally I think the HBP was Godric Gryffindor. The four founders all were nobility of some kind or another and turned their backs on their "true heritage" to become teachers instead and thus help wizardkind. GG came from the most exalted family (a smidge of royalty, perhaps?) and thus gave up the most in terms of earthly prestige and honour. (And Hogwarts might have been his castle.) Harry will learn more about GG and his values and beliefs in this book, just as we read what Tom Riddle learned about Salazar Slytherin in Book 2. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Not sure JKR ever said anything about Lily having a big secret but assuming that this is accurate and I missed it, here goes: I think Lily's secret will turn out to be that the "old magic" that protected baby Harry from Voldemort was something she got from Snape. I'm not thrilled with this, as I don't believe in the Lily/Snape ship thingie, but ever since David Thewlis/Lupin said what he did about Lily seeing the good in people even when they couldn't see it in themselves I've been braced for a revelation that Snape and Lily were actually friends before 5th year and drifted apart after the Pensieve Incident because Snape was stupid. (Sidenote: I know the movie isn't the book but that bit was in there for a reason, to soften us up for something, and I don't believe it was because of a Lupin crush.) It would explain why the pantsing was Snape's worst memory (he lost his only friend), it would explain Petunia's reference to "that awful boy" which I've never assumed was James. And Snape is a walking volume of secrets of his own. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? This Felix guy, who is also Lion Man. He's another old friend of Dumbledore's and Harry will meet him in the summer when Dumbledore introduces them. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, but not a very tempestuous one yet, I think. It'll be more like Ginny's part of the Trio now and has a vote on things. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Looks like a pensieve, but might be a cauldron too which would tie into the potions textbook on another jacket cover. I'll say it's a cauldron just to be contrary. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. 1. Percy will be reconciled to his family although the twins will extract retribution for his prattiness in Book 5. 2. Harry will - FINALLY - start asking the questions about his family that he should have been asking for the past five books: what were my parents like? why did my dad harass Snape? why did my mom start going out with my dad? 3. Draco will become a bit more of a threat to the trio, although I think he'll go after Ron rather than Harry; there's something about Draco that makes me think he'd still like to be Harry's official buddy even if he has no idea how to make it happen except that Harry should be grovelling to Draco rather than vice versa. I expect we'll see Draco hex Ron rather badly at least once, possibly during a Quidditch game, and Ron spending time in the hospital wing afterwards. 4. Harry will start out by being almost violently anti-Snape, then will learn something confuses the heck out of him and will end the book by being neutral and wary about Snape. They'll never like each other but a distant respect isn't impossible. 5. Snape will talk to Harry about Lily. I'm certain of this. Magda Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sat May 7 16:24:20 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 16:24:20 -0000 Subject: Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection, and Fawkes the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <427C9098.1090009@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > > JKR has stated that Harry will gain a new pet before the series ends, Well... Does that mean Hedwig dies? Chys From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat May 7 16:57:45 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 16:57:45 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128597 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Well I know that many say it will be DD. He is my favorite and I will be in mourning for years if that happens!! I do think that there will be a foreshadowing. A dinner with 13 people, unless she is wise to us and will know that we will know so this time she won't do that. At some point in book 6 (or 7) Ron, Hagrid, and Snape will die. I think Hagrid in book 6, the others in book 7. And Harry in book 7. Since we may have elements of other religions in the book it would be entirely possible that DD is one that goes through reincarnations just like his Phoenix. So maybe like Spock (I am mixing things up here I know) he has a time when he has to go away and regenerate or something. I don't think that LV will kill him. If he went away, it would fit with the *Epic Hero's mentor has to leave* without his actually being killed by someone. DD is too great a wizard to ever be killed in battle, unless he allows himself to be. If DD dies at the hands of LV or his followers it will be because he has chosen not to fight . The same as Lily that night at GH. That would be the only way that DD will die, if he gives his life freely. I just had another thought. LV will kill Ron and later (in book 7) Harry will forgive LV and that is how LV will be distroyed and Tom redemed. LV will just evaporate away because he will be distroyed by LOVE and he will not be able to bear it. There, you heard it here first!!! 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Well I think that is has to be a Lion sort of person. My reasoning is that the Half-Blood Prince is also the Lion of Judah and that may well be Godrick Gryffindor or someone before him and he was their descendent. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Will have to ponder this one for a bit. Maybe she knows something important about Tom Riddle. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? As usual it will be someone new that we have not met yet. I do think that by the 7th book that it will be Snape, but not yet. (is that a negative prediction?) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. My reason I have given here before. In CS Ginny represents Eve and Harry represents Adam. They are both in the Chamber of Death, the tomb. And if it were not for Faulks, the symbol of Christ, they would have died there. (I know people are sick of hearing about my Christian interpretation of these things, but this is what my predictions are based upon.) Because Faulks assist Harry and saves them both, it has to be Ginny. Also Ginny is the one lead astray by the diary, just as Eve was lead astray by the Serpent. So to my mind it all fits quite logically. I couldn't help thinking about one of the Psalms that I read every morning.. "Let the praise of God be on their lips and a two edge sword in their hand " The two edge sword was the sword of Godrick Gryffindor, given to Harry when he cries out for help. Harry knew that he could not defeat the Serpent alone; he knew that he was going to die there. And time and time again Harry shows his faith in DD. That is why DD is smiling happily in the staff room when Harry is saved. He knew that Harry called out for his help. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Susan Bones' mother. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is a pensive. DD will be teaching Harry how to retrieve his own memories from that night at GH. I don't think that anyone else was there, so if we are going to find out more about what happened it will have to come from Harry. Now there is the outside chance that someone else was there and we are seeing their memory. If that were the case, it might the pensive of Sirius. The Black Family Pensive. Perhaps he left some memories behind for Harry for a later time when Harry was old enough to understand. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. He will be studying to be an Auror. Snape will be none too pleased. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, he too will be studying to be an Auror, following in the footsteps of his parents. Up to now he has been a bit timid and probably not too keen on the idea. But after his encounter with Bella, I think that he has a clearer idea of the importance of fighting evil and will make it a personal cause. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He passed them all. However many that adds up to. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. As I have said before Ron will betray Harry in some way, this may not be until book 7. It will be like the story of Judas. (Keeping in mind that Judas was a loyal follower to the end of his life. Judas got bad press later, but he did what he did because he thought it would help Jesus bring in the Kingdom of God. But Judas did not understand what Jesus was trying to tell him and got it wrong. When he realized that he hung himself.) Likewise Ron will do what he thinks will be helping Harry, and it will be the wrong thing and bring about the events leading up to Harry's death. I don't think that Ron will kill himself because these are children's books and she will not give that option to impressionable kids. Harry in some way will forgive him and the reader will understand just how deep forgiveness can be. 2. We will find out more about Snape and his adult life before he became a teacher at Hogwarts. We may also find out more about his childhood and the connection to Lucius. 3. I don't know if Snape will ever come around to being kind to Harry but Harry will have some compassion on Snape. Harry will start to mature and see that things are not all black and white. 4. We will find out more about Lily and the Ancient Magic. And I predict that it will have something to do with Egypt. My reason for Egypt is that the Children's broom that is being sold (and I am told that all merchandise is approved be JKR beforehand) has some strange markings on it more like hieroglyphics instead of ancient runes. Also because of the clues about Gringotts in Egypt and old wizard's tombs. 5. We will find out more about the History of Hogwarts and about the Founders. We might even see the cemetery that is on the grounds and what clues they might hold. Tonks_op Who is very competitive and likes to win contest. (crosses fingers) From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat May 7 17:27:19 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 17:27:19 -0000 Subject: Peter as Judas? (was: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: Could not Peter Pettigrew act as a sort of Judas figure? He's already betrayed his friends, a betrayal that led to a sacrfice for the greater good (Lily's death). > > For his service, Peter has received his 30 pieces of silver in the > form of a silver hand. I just wonder when he will attempt to give back the blood money, when he'll come to terms with the depth of his > betrayal. Tonks: Good one. Never thought of the silver hand in that way before. Could very well be that he is the Judas. I have imagined it to be Ron at a later date. But I do like your idea. Perhaps Peter meant his telling LV where the Potters were in the same way that Judas did with Jesus. That is, Judas was a Zealot (a political group advocating a violent takeover) and he thought that if he told where Jesus was it would force Jesus' hand to bring about the revolution. Judas did not understand that this was not the plan. Judas never understood that it would not be a bloody war. When he realized how mistaken he was and what he had done he was overcome with remorse, after he got the 30 pieces of silver he went and gave it back to them. And then he went out and hung himself. So it would fit more than I realized before. Perhaps that is what Peter did. If that is the case then I will have to change my prediction about Ron. Instead of Ron being Judas, Ron is Peter. This fits better too. So Ron will deny Harry, perhaps 3 times. Ron will be captured or somehow encounter LV or the DE and they will say.. "you were with him (Harry)" and Ron will deny it to save himself. Tonks_op From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat May 7 19:40:48 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 19:40:48 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128599 Since Ginger offered her predictions, I guess that means that I should too > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? > Molly Weasley - it's Cruel Dramatic Irony 101, my dear Watson. Molly had the boggart vision of her immediate family members being struck successively dead - ergo, it is most logical that she herself will perish. > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? > I've maintained it was Godric Gryffindor all along > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? That her older sister Petunia also attended Hogwarts, but was expelled. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I'll vote for the lion-faced guy - every DADA teacher has always been a new charcter, why should JKR change now? >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? A brand-new character. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > The Pensieve > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? > Yes > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? > No (ending a long string of melting cauldron gags) 10 How many OWLs did Harry get? > I'll guess five > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > > > 1. Peter Pettigrew dies heroically to save Harry's life. 2. Azkaban becomes a fully-owned subsidiary of You-Know-Inc., with the dementors returning in triumph. Several prominent MOMers are imprisoned at Azkaban, including Fudge, Umbridge and Percy. 3. In his last will and testament, Sirius named his godson as his sole heir, meaning Harry will become the owner of 12 Grimmauld Place once is of age. 4. The house-elves remain unliberated. Kreacher will be suitably dealt with for his treachery against Sirius (perhaps by his fellow elves). 5. Dumbledore will remain hale and hearty as Book Six concludes. The cover scene depicts their traditional year-end colloquy, as Dumbledore uses the Pensieve to guide Harry through his infant memories of James' and Lily's murder. - CMC (we'll know for sure in 70 days) 4. From sophierom at yahoo.com Sat May 7 19:51:23 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 19:51:23 -0000 Subject: Peter as Judas? (was: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128600 Sophierom: > Could not Peter Pettigrew act as a sort of Judas figure? He's > already betrayed his friends, a betrayal that led to a sacrfice for > the greater good (Lily's death). > > > > For his service, Peter has received his 30 pieces of silver in the > > form of a silver hand. I just wonder when he will attempt to give > back the blood money, when he'll come to terms with the depth of his > > betrayal. > Tonks: > Good one. Never thought of the silver hand in that way before. > Could very well be that he is the Judas. I have imagined it to be > Ron at a later date. But I do like your idea. Perhaps Peter meant > his telling LV where the Potters were in the same way that Judas did > with Jesus. That is, Judas was a Zealot (a political group > advocating a violent takeover) and he thought that if he told where > Jesus was it would force Jesus' hand to bring about the revolution. > Judas did not understand that this was not the plan. Judas never > understood that it would not be a bloody war. When he realized how > mistaken he was and what he had done he was overcome with remorse, > after he got the 30 pieces of silver he went and gave it back to > them. And then he went out and hung himself. So it would fit more > than I realized before. Perhaps that is what Peter did. If that is > the case then I will have to change my prediction about Ron. Sophierom: Interesting! I never realized that about Judas (my understanding of Biblical stories and theology is quite limited!). So are you suggesting, then, that Peter Pettigrew was more of a zealot than a coward? That somehow he thought turning to LV would spark some sort of confrontation? (Or were you giving that information as background about zealotry to explain Judas's decision to hang himself?) I can't see Peter Pettigrew as a zealot, especially given his own admission of fear in the Shrieking Shack ("Sirius, Sirius, what could I have done? The Dark Lord ...you have no idea ...he has weapons you can't imagine...I was scared, Sirius, I was never brave like you and Remus and James. I never meant for it to happen." PoA, Am. ed., 374). I can, however, see Peter Pettigrew deciding to "hang himself" - if not literally, then figuratively by going against LV. Tonks: > Instead of Ron being Judas, Ron is Peter. This fits better too. So > Ron will deny Harry, perhaps 3 times. Ron will be captured or > somehow encounter LV or the DE and they will say.. "you were with > him (Harry)" and Ron will deny it to save himself. Sophierom: Intriguing idea. Ron has already "denied" Harry once that I can remember: in GoF, when Harry becomes the fourth champion, Ron turns his back on Harry out of jealousy and hurt. I'm not sure if this would really count as "denying" Harry, but Ron's usual loyalty did desert him during those few weeks in their fourth year. Best, Sophie From hannah at readysolve.com Sat May 7 20:57:16 2005 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 20:57:16 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128601 Hi, I'm not exactly new here but it's been a while since I was around and i never posted much then. So I suppose this is a new beginning. We all know that JKR likes to play with genres and Grimmauld place is firmly in the gothic tradition, isn't it? And Draco Malfoy may be next in line to inherit. So it occured to me that there is a common storyline where a young and ignorant aristocrat inherits a creepy manor from a distant relative. The plot usually involves a deranged servant, a family secret and, often, a pact with a dark creature of some kind. Draco probably isn't that important to the plot of HBP, but it's fun to speculate. Khilari. From elanorpam at yahoo.com.br Sat May 7 22:51:27 2005 From: elanorpam at yahoo.com.br (Paula "Elanor Pam") Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 19:51:27 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP Prediction Contest References: Message-ID: <00b001c55357$509f6250$0601010a@harrypotter> No: HPFGUIDX 128602 OMG LOL PREDIICTOSN!! 1. Who will be the most major character to die? TEH SQWID1!11!!!1 -- Actually, I'm thinking Filch and/or one of the griffyndor boys with good enough pagetime, like Seamus, Dean and the Creeveys. Or Draco. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? TEH SQWID1!11!!!1 --Or maybe Lucius. Wouldn't that be interesting. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She had an affair with the giant squ--*SHOT* I think she was an unspeakable. Either that, or she found out something during her third encounter with Voldy, which could explain him being willing to spare her. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? TEH SQWID1!11!!!1 -- Or maybe a brand-new character, like the lion man :D 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? TEH SQWID1!11!!!1 -- Or Ginny. Or both. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? TEH MADAM BONES1!11!!!1 (What? I ran out of squids.) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Hagrid's latest attempt at high cuisine. That or Dumbley is teaching Harry how to use a pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, many of them!! And they'll make him see sparkly colors and hear voices telling him to drown Snape in this boiling cauldron in front of him. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, and they'll make him just as happy as Harry was. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Enough to entertain Hedwig in a party. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1 - Ginny's relationship with Dean won't last long, but will end peacefully. 2 - Harry will actually activelly study instead of leaning on Hermy, for a change. 3 - Ron will get over his block and ask Hermy out. And the scene will be utterly hilarious. 4 - Draco's wounded pride will drive him into doing something majorly stupid, like enlisting to be a death eater, and he's going to majorly suck at it. I don't think he'd get to be good or important enough to ever even see Voldy in person. He's going to die as a low rank, either in this book or the next. 5 - I'm out of predictions... hm, wait. Everything We Ever Believed And Thought We Knew About Percy Will Turn Out To Have Been Wrong. Sorry for the silliness, I'm on crack today. Elanor Pam From mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com Sat May 7 18:28:44 2005 From: mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com (Amy Klein) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 11:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Hedwig (was Re: Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection, and Fawkes the Phoenix) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050507182845.5597.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128603 digger wrote: > JKR has stated that Harry will gain a new pet before the series > ends, Chys: > Well... Does that mean Hedwig dies? I sure hope that Hedwig doesn't die, I've actually become quite fond of her. When no one else is there for Harry, she is. Without her where would Harry be during the summers? No cake, letters from friends, communication with Ron about getting away from the Dursleys'. I'm hoping that "another" in this case means "in addition to". May be he'll get a phoenix like Dumbledore so that they can communicate by other means that are not interceptable (I know that's spelt wrong...oh well). Just my insight. Amy From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 7 21:01:39 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Chris Whittaker) Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 21:01:39 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128604 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Peter Pettigrew 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryfindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) If she has a secret it will be that she was a very powerful and successful auror. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Old Lion Guy, he is an old friend of DD and will be doing him a favor. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Susan Bones 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is an ancient pensieve, possibly GG's 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All of the ones he took, everyone will pass Astronomy because of the distractions during the exam. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Peter Pettigrew will sacrifice himself to save Harry, thereby fulfilling his life debt. 2. Ron and Herimone will finally admit their feelings to each other. 3. There will be a confrontation with the DEs and Ron's strategic abilities will be instrumental in the trio/sextet's success. 4. Neville's career choice will turn out to be Healer. 5. Bill and Fleur will get married, that's why Harry has the shortest stay at Privet Drive, he'll be attending the wedding. From mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com Sat May 7 23:11:27 2005 From: mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com (Amy Klein) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 16:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Death Eaters In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050507231127.93159.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128605 Elanor Pam wrote in her predictions- > - Draco's wounded pride will drive him into doing something majorly stupid, like enlisting to be a death eater, and he's going to majorly suck at it. He's going to die as a low rank, either in this book or the next. < This raises another question for me. To be in the OoTP you have to be out of school. To be a death eater is there any certain age? Is there a canon somewhere to answer this? I haven't seen any mention of it. May be Voldy is so desperate he'll take anyone, especially legacies. Amy --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun May 8 00:39:14 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 17:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050508003914.75773.qmail@web53506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128606 tigerpatronus wrote: down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasley (Harry has already lost the person he was starting to see as a second dad - Sirius. Now he will loose the person he is starting to see as a second mother.) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) The Old Lion Guy, Felix, who is a decendent of GG. He will either be the DADA teacher of the new Minister of Magic. My second choice for each is listed below. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Her big secret will not be fully revealed until book 7 but we will find out more about her time at Hogwarts. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks and half the boys will have a crush on her. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? James' or Sirius' pensive. This is how we will find out more about the Maurauders or what happened on the night at Godrics Hollow 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, and Snape is really pissed off!! 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, and Snape will protest - oh the horror!! 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All except History of Magic and Astronomy - neither of which are required for Auror. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. We will find out more about Neville's parents and they will possibly come out of the state they are in. 2. Draco will seek out LV to try to get him to rescue his dad and LV will make a deal with Draco (in other words use him) that he will help if Draco traps one that is close to Harry. Draco sees this as a way to get rid of Hermione but it backfires. 3. He hear more from the students from the other 2 schools. 4. Percy will be too proud to come back and then will some how feel too guilty for Molly's death. 5. Ron and Hermione will have their first kiss after Ron and Harry (along with the other trio - Neville, Luna, and Ginny) save her from Draco/LV. Moonmyyst --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun May 8 03:00:34 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 03:00:34 -0000 Subject: Hedwig (was Re: Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection, and Fawkes the Phoenix) In-Reply-To: <20050507182845.5597.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128607 > > I sure hope that Hedwig doesn't die, I've actually become quite > fond of her. When no one else is there for Harry, she is. > Without her where would Harry be during the summers? No cake, > letters from friends, communication with Ron about getting away > from the Dursleys'. I'm hoping that "another" in this case means > "in addition to". May be he'll get a phoenix like Dumbledore so > that they can communicate by other means that are not interceptable > (I know that's spelt wrong...oh well). Just my insight. > > Amy I'm always fond of the idea that he'd get a snake and use it to spy on people. (Would have saved him valuable hours under the cloak, for certain.) Chys From ajroald at yahoo.com Sun May 8 03:23:49 2005 From: ajroald at yahoo.com (Lea) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 03:23:49 -0000 Subject: Rosmerta - First or Last name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128608 Had an interesting conversation with another HP friend of mine about Madam Rosmerta. I've always thought that Rosmerta was her last name, and was surprised to find out others think it is her first name. So, I'm wondering what your opinions are? My reasoning for believing this to be her last name: Madam Pomfrey (Poppy Pomfrey), Madam Pince (Irma Pince), Madam Hooch (Rolanda Hooch - HP Lexicon, from trading card game), Madam Edgecombe, Madam Malkin, and Madam Marsh, all obviously last names. So why would Madam Rosmerta be different and be a first name? From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sun May 8 03:38:22 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:38:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: <8e.26e63c87.2faee3ae@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128609 In a message dated 5/5/2005 4:39:25 PM Mountain Standard Time, tigerpatronus at yahoo.com writes: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Felix Felicis 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She's an Unspeakable, who has studied the locked room at the ministry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? same as number 2. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, but Dumbledore will have to intervene. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 1 in Potions, None in Divination, 2 in everything else. (Outstanding in DADA) Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. We will learn Tom Riddle's mother's name, family background, and story. 2. We will learn why Pettigrew and Snape joined Voldemort 3. We will learn why Snape left Voldemort, If he actually did (if not, move to book 7) 4. We will learn there is a spy in the order. 5. Harry will inherit Sirius's fortune or split it with Lupin. Comments? Suggestions? Marvelous idea. TK - TigerPatronus! Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Sun May 8 04:06:54 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 00:06:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: <213.5c273f.2faeea5e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128610 In a message dated 5/5/2005 4:39:25 PM Mountain Standard Time, tigerpatronus at yahoo.com writes: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I am afraid it may be none other than our beloved Headmaster, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. Hopefully AFTER we find out he's married to Minerva...finding out after he dies would be such a bittersweet revelation... 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I think it's either Hagrid or Seamus Finnegan. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I think it has something to do with Petunia, but what exactly it is I'm not certain. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis, who may or may not be the Old Lion Guy. I think the Old Lion Guy is GG, myself. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood, then move on to Ginny Weasley, who he will stay with. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones. Alas, it is not Arthur. *sigh* 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, but Dumbledore will have to intervene. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, but Dumbledore will have to intervene here too. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Enough to qualify him as an Auror, except an E in Potions, which Dumbledore will overrule. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. We will find out Tom Riddle's mother's name. (By the way, which grandfather was Marvolo, and was it a first or last name? Sorry, I had to ask. I hope we find that out too) 2. We will find out that Professor McGonagall is Professor Dumbledore's wife. 3. We will find out why Snape left the DE's (yes, he did) and why he became one in the first place. 4. Who the heck "the one who has left me forever" and "the one too cowardly to return" REALLY are. I do not think for ONE SECOND that V-mort was referring to Snape and Karkaroff (in that order) in that sentence. I think they MAY have been those two, if in reverse. 5. What "in essence divided" was all about. Comments? Suggestions? Good contest, TigerPatronus. I hope we get all my questions (which I share with a LOT of us, I'm sure) get answered! ~Kaylee Tonks-Lupin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From camazama at hotmail.com Sun May 8 00:18:17 2005 From: camazama at hotmail.com (camazama) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 00:18:17 -0000 Subject: Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128611 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Neville 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She dated Snape 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? DD's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All but one, he can't be perfect because that's Hermione Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Fred and George will become professional quidditch players. 2. Hermione will figure out a way to save the day...again. 3. Death Eaters will make a direct attack on Hogwarts. 4. Ron will betray Harry/Hermione. 5. Percy returns to the fold. As a side note, I am new to the group. I lost my way after Buffy ended and am looking for a new online community besides one that continually says, so and so is so hot. So hello. Camazama From wherr009 at umn.edu Sun May 8 03:35:05 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 03:35:05 -0000 Subject: Question about the prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128612 According to the prophecy "...AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHERFOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES..." Does this mean that only Voldemort can kill Harry and if so what were to happen if someone (not Voldemort) where to use Avada Kedavra on Harry? "wherr009" From clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com Sun May 8 04:05:38 2005 From: clehrenet_81 at yahoo.com (Ehren) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 04:05:38 -0000 Subject: Predictions, lets see what I know...or don't know. In-Reply-To: <20050507063344.9779.qmail@web54708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128613 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. The most major character to die? DD will die in book six. He will first give Harry all the knowledge he needs to know to defeat Voldy and then Voldy will kill him. 2. The Half-Blood Prince? I am sticking with the safe answer here, Godric Griffindor...and we are going to learn that Harry and GG are somehow related. 3. What is Lily's big secret? I think we know the gist of the "blood protection" spell, I think it will be something no one is expecting. However...no ideas on my part. 4. The new DADA teacher? Snape...and if it isn't him, DD will give us a reason why he never got the job. 5. Harry's romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley for long term. He may have a "fling" with Susan Bones 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Lets make it interesting and say Voldy's Pensive. How scary (and helpful) would that be? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? YES, but not taught by Snape. He will taught be the new Lion Guy. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? no 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? six Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Petunia will develope magic later in life. 2. Frank and Alice Longbottom regain some of their "sanity." 3. We will finally meet Aberforth. 4. Ron will die (tears). 5. Harry will survive. 6. Neville will be the one who stays at Hogwarts to teach after the series ends. 7. Pettigrew will return, pay the debt owed to Harry and die. 8. We will see Sirius again, by way of the Mirror. 9. Hermione will become minister(mistress?) of magic after the series ends. 10.Madame Maxine will break up with Hagrid for Grawp ;) Thanks for reading! Cheers Ehren ~who is re-reading Gof because she just watched Chamber tonight on ABC where they showed deleted scenes and sneak peaks at the GoF movie.~ July 16th cannot get here fast enough!!! And she has a broken foot and is slightly immobile so why not be emmersed in Harry Potter!!! From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun May 8 04:35:02 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 00:35:02 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rosmerta - First or Last name Message-ID: <54.43d82fb5.2faef0f6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128614 In a message dated 5/7/2005 11:24:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ajroald at yahoo.com writes: Had an interesting conversation with another HP friend of mine about Madam Rosmerta. I've always thought that Rosmerta was her last name, and was surprised to find out others think it is her first name. So, I'm wondering what your opinions are? My reasoning for believing this to be her last name: Madam Pomfrey (Poppy Pomfrey), Madam Pince (Irma Pince), Madam Hooch (Rolanda Hooch - HP Lexicon, from trading card game), Madam Edgecombe, Madam Malkin, and Madam Marsh, all obviously last names. So why would Madam Rosmerta be different and be a first name? ============ Sherrie here: I don'r have PoA to hand, but doesn't Fudge refer to her as just "Rosmerta" in the scene at the Three Broomsticks? If it's her last name, I'd think that would be INEXCUSABLY rude of him. BTW, with regard to the name: "In Gaulish Celtic mythology, Rosmerta was the goddess of fire, warmth, and abundance. A flower queen and hater of marriage, Rosmerta was also the queen of death. A Celtic goddess of fertility and wealth, whose cult was widely spread in Northeast Gaul. Rosmerta was the wife of _Esus_ (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/esus.html) , the Gaulish Hermes. Her attributes are a cornucopia and a stick with two snakes." (from http://www.pantheon.org/articles/r/rosmerta.html ) Sherrie "My best friend is the man who'll get me a book I ain't read." - A. Lincoln [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From norek_archives2 at hotmail.com Sun May 8 05:15:08 2005 From: norek_archives2 at hotmail.com (Janet Anderson) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 05:15:08 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rosmerta - First or Last name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128615 Lea asked: >My reasoning for believing this to be her last name: > >Madam Pomfrey (Poppy Pomfrey), Madam Pince (Irma Pince), Madam Hooch >(Rolanda Hooch - HP Lexicon, from trading card game), Madam Edgecombe, >Madam Malkin, and Madam Marsh, all obviously last names. So why would >Madam Rosmerta be different and be a first name? You're right that it's inconsistent. But in *Prisoner of Azkaban,* Fudge calls her "Rosmerta, m'dear," which seems to indicate it's her first name. Janet Anderson From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Sun May 8 05:31:17 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 05:31:17 -0000 Subject: Rosmerta - First or Last name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128616 > Lea asked: > > >My reasoning for believing this to be her last name: > > > >Madam Pomfrey (Poppy Pomfrey), Madam Pince (Irma Pince), Madam Hooch > >(Rolanda Hooch - HP Lexicon, from trading card game), Madam Edgecombe, > >Madam Malkin, and Madam Marsh, all obviously last names. So why would > >Madam Rosmerta be different and be a first name? > > You're right that it's inconsistent. But in *Prisoner of Azkaban,* Fudge > calls her "Rosmerta, m'dear," which seems to indicate it's her first name. > > > Janet Anderson Now The Barmaid: I think the inconsistency has something to do with class and social standing. While Rosmerta is certainly loved and respected she simply has the kind of role, the type of job and position in the community, that would make her someone to be called by their first name. "Tom" at the Leakey Cauldron is also a first name type person. She is like "Miss Kitty" from the old TV show Gunsmoke. (Not that anyone here is old enough to remember that) --Barmaid From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun May 8 05:34:54 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 01:34:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rosmerta - First or Last name Message-ID: <15.4466bc39.2faefefe@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128617 ajroald wrote: >Had an interesting conversation with another HP friend of mine about >Madam Rosmerta. I've always thought that Rosmerta was her last name, >and was surprised to find out others think it is her first name. So, >I'm wondering what your opinions are? Ray replies: One sometimes encounters people addressed as "Madame [first name]", generally divided into two groups; 1) Psychics and others adapted the title out of pretension, such as "Mdame Rose, sees all, knows all!", and 2) Woman who were at one time called by their first name, and have risen in social standing so that the title "Madame" shows proper respect, even though the first name is used. The following assumes facts "not in evidence", that is, there is no mention of any such matters in canon. If Madame Rosmerta was, at one time, a waitress at the Three Broomsticks, and is now the owner (or perhaps married to the owner), "Madame Rosmerta" would be a simple compromise for adding additional respect to one whom you have addressed by her first name, perhaps for many years. Sherrie added: >I don'r have PoA to hand, but doesn't Fudge refer to her as just "Rosmerta" >in the scene at the Three Broomsticks? If it's her last name, I'd think that >would be INEXCUSABLY rude of him. Not in Britain, where one will frequently call an acquaintance (including, presumably a female acquaintance) by their last name. You will notice several occassions of characters being addressed as "Potter" or "Malfoy". However, Fudge actually calls her, "Rosmerta, m'dear" indicating a certain level of intimacy. Hagrid also calls her Rosmerta, so I have to assume that it is, indeed, her first name. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sun May 8 05:39:12 2005 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 01:39:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rosmerta - First or Last name Message-ID: <65.44f03fe3.2faf0000@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128618 The Barmaid wrote: >She is like "Miss Kitty" from the old TV show Gunsmoke. (Not that anyone >here is old enough to remember that) I'm old enough to remember "Gunsmoke", and it is currently running on the cable channel "TV Land". However, you cite an example of what I was guessing about in Madame Rosmerta's case. At some point before the beginning of the show, dance-hall girl "Kitty" acquired the tavern, thus becoming dance-hall owner "Miss Kitty". -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Sun May 8 05:45:02 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 22:45:02 -0700 Subject: HBP prediction contest: My entry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31623764.20050507224502@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128619 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. I think his passing, leaving Harry and the WW to fight V "alone" will be the big cliffhanger at the end of this book. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) The Half-Blood Prince is a "What" not a "Who". *Exactly* what I'm not as sure of... I'm going to guess it's a pub with some special magical quality. (I hope I get half-marks if I'm at least right about HBP's inanimate status.) > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was a reverse-animagus ("anthropagus"?) -- She was a unicorn who could assume human form and was adopted by Muggles. (Dumbledore is the only living person who knows this.) This revelation will have some connection to Lily's "purity" and the spell that protected Harry. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Aberforth, whom I also think is the "Old Lion" guy. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one, though Harry and Ginny will become more intimate. (The Shape of Things to Come.) > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. (Percy will take over at Dept. of Magical Law Enforcement -- See below.) > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It seems increasingly difficult to deny that it's a pensieve, but just to be subversive, I'm going to say it's an elaborate advanced magical device, in the same class as the Goblet of Fire. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Dumbledore will force Snape to take him. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He got passing marks in everything except Divination and History of Magic. > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Perseus Evans *is* a real character, with *some* connection to Lily, Snape, and Andromeda Tonks. 2. Both sides will be working to build up their respective "Creature" armies (e.g. Giants, Hippogriffs, Dragons, Blast-Ended Skrewts, etc.) 3. Harry will have to face a Lethifold. 4. We will find out why House Elves have been oppressed all these centuries, and that it's related to their powers, which in some ways exceed those of Wizards. 5. As head of Magical Law Enforcement, Percy will follow in Crouch Sr's footsteps and impose draconic measures, authorize use of the Unforgivables, lock up people (including a member of his family!) without trial or even charging them with a crime, and other human rights abuses that would make Voldemort proud, all in the name of fighting him. > Comments? Suggestions? Thnaks for doing this -- I'm having fun reading everyone's speculations! -- Dave From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 8 05:48:28 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 05:48:28 -0000 Subject: someone's life / ragged robes / for a century / Mesdames Rosmerta & Malkin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128620 Neri wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/128436 : << > Potioncat: > Oh, was it Pippin who said Snape is most likely hoping Hermione's > judgment catches up with her potionmaking skills before she kills > someone? Neri: This assumes that Snape cares about someone's life, but who would be that someone? I can't think of anybody. >> Someone who drinks an experimental potion she brewed, such as Harry Potter. Snape has shown signs of wanting to keep Harry alive until he eliminated Voldemort. Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128521 : << So, is that only Draco's gang or all Slytherins? And at that, the complaint is his frayed robes. I wonder if it's Snape's dislike of Lupin that Draco has picked up on, or if Lucius has said something. Draco showed comtempt for Lupin before the Feast the first day. >> Draco wouldn't need anyone to prompt him to mock the poverty of a wizard with ragged robes. Andrewpepperuk wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/127973 : << If Voldemort is the worst wizard for a century, who was that worse wizard? Harry was the youngest quidditch player for a century. Who was the younger player? >> To which, Moonmyyst wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128543 : << Okay, lets throw in this twist.... What happened to that other wizard and quidditch player? The ones in this century are facing each other. What happened with the other two ?>> To which, Mecki replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128549 : << What about Dumbledore and Grindelwald? >> Dumbledore may have been the youngest player on a House Quidditch team in the history of Hogwarts approximately 139 years ago (age 150 'now' minus age 11 then = 139 years ago) but the Chocolate Frog card said Grindelwald was defeated in 1945, which was only 50 years before OoP took place, and only 36 years before Voldemort was defeated. Lea wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGr ownups/message/128608 : << Madam Pomfrey (Poppy Pomfrey), Madam Pince (Irma Pince), Madam Hooch (Rolanda Hooch - HP Lexicon, from trading card game), Madam Edgecombe, Madam Malkin, and Madam Marsh, all obviously last names. So why would Madam Rosmerta be different and be a first name? >> I agree with Sherrie and Janet (posts 128614 and 128615) that 'Rosmerta' is her given name. As Sherrie pointed out, << In Gaulish Celtic mythology, Rosmerta was the goddess of fire, warmth, and abundance. >> and, in addition, the name is said to mean 'Great Provider'. Both the role model and the name are well-suited for her line of work. Also, I am certain Madam Malkin is also using her given name. 'Malkin' is an old name, diminutive of Molly (like "Molly-kins"), and "Molly" is a diminutive of Mary. Altho' listies once pointed out that it was a JKR joke name because 'malkin' is a word meaning a badly dressed woman. The best I could find was http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=malkin saying "Mal"kin (?), n. [Dim. of Maud, the proper name. Cf. Grimalkin.] [Written also maukin.] 1. Originally, a kitchenmaid; a slattern. Chaucer. 2. A mop made of clouts, used by the kitchen servant. 3. A scarecrow.[Prov. Eng.] 4. (Mil.) A mop or sponge attached to a jointed staff for swabbing out a cannon." When I complained of the inconsistency of Mesdams Rosmerta and Malkin using their personal names and Mesdams Pince, Pomfrey, and Hooch using their family names, Pippin pointed out that the shopkeepers (if an inn can be considered a shop?) have good reason to try present a friendly appearance to customers. From juli17 at aol.com Sun May 8 06:28:32 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 02:28:32 EDT Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: <1ea.3c5a4ddb.2faf0b90@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128621 tigerpatronus wrote: down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? A Weasley. I can't bear it to be Bill since Fleur would be heartbroken, or for it to be a twin because that would be just too cruel. So I pick Charlie. Sorry, Charlie! > > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) > The Old Lion Guy is Godric Gryffindor, the Half-Blood Prince. > > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) > None. Her big secret won't be revealed until Book 7. > > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? > I'd like it to be Bill Weasley, but I'll go with Felix Felicis. (It won't be Snape's turn until Book 7). > > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? > Susan Bones. It'll be a brief attraction though, as Harry and Ginny will get together during or after events in Book 7. > > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I agree with the popular answer, Amelia Bones. > > > > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? > Godric Gryffindor's pensieve. > > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, and he'll have earned it. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? > No, and he won't miss it a bit! > > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven. > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. > 1. We will see a visible effect on Ron from his brief connection to the brain at the Dept of Mysteries. 2. We will meet at least one spouse of a Hogwarts teacher. 3. Petunia is the one who will perform magic late in life. 4. We will find out that the bubble gum wrappers Alice Longbottom gives her son do indeed have significance (and the nature of that significance). 5. We will find out the last name of Tom Riddle's mother, as well as the last name of Severus Snape's mother, and those two last names will be...the same, because they are related! (Explaining why Voldy has been so forgiving and so trusting of Snape) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 8 06:50:21 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 06:50:21 -0000 Subject: Rosmerta - First or Last name In-Reply-To: <15.4466bc39.2faefefe@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128622 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: Sherrie: > > >I don'r have PoA to hand, but doesn't Fudge refer to her as just "Rosmerta" > > >in the scene at the Three Broomsticks? If it's her last name, I'd think > that > >would be INEXCUSABLY rude of him. Ray: > Not in Britain, where one will frequently call an acquaintance (including, > presumably a female acquaintance) by their last name. You will notice > several occassions of characters being addressed as "Potter" or "Malfoy". > However, Fudge actually calls her, "Rosmerta, m'dear" indicating a certain level of > intimacy. Hagrid also calls her Rosmerta, so I have to assume that it is, > indeed, her first name. Geoff: Your comment led me led to wonder in which part of the UK you live. I would never call a female acquaintance by her last name only without the prefix "Mrs." or "Miss" and I have never heard any other adult do likewise. You will occasionally hear teenagers call others by last names but even that is much less common than it was in years past. When I first started teaching in a single-sex school, it was customary to call the boys by their last names but that fell out of use when we went co-educational. I might jokingly call a man "Jonesy" or "Smithy" but otherwise, most informal contact would involve using their first name. From louis.ward at gmail.com Sun May 8 04:32:05 2005 From: louis.ward at gmail.com (Q) Date: Sat, 7 May 2005 23:32:05 -0500 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128623 Louis: > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hermione. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) A character we haven't met yet. I don't believe he will be either Felix or GG. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I believe her "secret" is that she was a master/specialist/researcher in wandless magic. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The real Mad-Eye Moody. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve that previously belonged to Salazar Slytherin. Harry and Dumbledore will find it as they further explore the Chamber of Secrets. Quite possibly, Tom Riddle may have placed some of his own memories within in. I believe the Old Lion is Godric Gryffindor, who we will see through the pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, on his own merits. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Harry passed every exam he sat with the exception of History of Magic. Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* > come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will > receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in > his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. The reason Harry will leave Privet Drive early is to attend the wedding of Bill and Fleur. 2. Hermione will have attended a second World Cup over the summer, on the invitation of Viktor. 3. Harry will inherit Grimmauld Place. Kreacher will die of "natural" causes before Harry encounters him again. 4. Harry will attempt to duel Snape before the book concludes. 5. Ron will not declare his feelings for Hermione until after she is dead. -- Louis Ward, A lurker who is hoping to one day be titled The All-Muggle Prince. From mz_annethrope at yahoo.com Sun May 8 06:41:15 2005 From: mz_annethrope at yahoo.com (mz_annethrope) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 06:41:15 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128624 mz_annethrope takes up the challenge: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Albus Dumbledore. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Salazar Slytherin. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? No big secret in Book 6, but Petunia, now she'll have a big secret, but we may not find out about it until book 7. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Somebody never previously named, as usual. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? It will be somebody completely inappropriate. I'll guess Hannah Abbot. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? A DE. It's either a secret DE or somebody who has been "persuaded" to be a DE. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? DD's pensieve (which was passed on by Godric Gryffindor). > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? As unlikely as I think it will be...yes. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven. He'll get the usual suspects: DADA, charms, potions, transfiguration, care of magical creatures, herbology, plus one more that he shouldn't be expected to get. I'm guessing divination since that will give us a chance to see what's going with Firenze and Sybill. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. > 1. Wedding bells for Bill and Fleur. Those Weasley men just can't resist those Harridan women. > 2. Hermione will get the maximum number of OWLS. That's 12, and how she'll get them without taking 12 classes I don't know. She'll get all O's, except for one A in Astronomy, which she will get because she wasn't paying enough attention. She will whine incessantly about her single A. Ron won't pursue this harridan until Book 7. > 3. Percy will gain new status as an author. He will have penned those ever so helpful MoM pamphlets on avoiding He-Who-Must-Not-Be- Named and his DEs. Ron's response will be derisive. Percy will not be fired, but eventually he will have to decide between the DE infested MoM and the truth. He'll choose truth. Would that he also choose a harridan, but I'm afraid he'll break the mold. > 4. Harry will see his parents get killed in the pensieve. But his learning to use the pensieve will be important for something more than this because Harry will be able to retrieve some of Voldemort's thoughts. He will be able to analyze these thoughts in a detatched way that will not allow Voldemort to realize what Harry is up to. > 5. Revolts galore: goblin revolt, giants will side with Voldemort, Dementors already have. Predictions that may be for either book 6 or book 7: 1. Molly will die. So will a twin (Fred, I think). 2. We'll hear from Sirius again. Whether we see him is not so sure. 3. Petunia will turn out to be a muggle because she refused the invitation to Hogwarts. 4. Harry gets a new pet...Fawkes. 5. Draco will join the DEs. He'll try to avenge his father, but later he will chicken out like Regulus. But he may get away with it. Lucius will be snuffed by Voldemort. 6. A human being will disapparate in Hogwarts. > Comments? Suggestions? Thanks tigerpatronus. Great idea! mz_annethrope From celletiger at yahoo.com Sun May 8 07:48:22 2005 From: celletiger at yahoo.com (Marcelle) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 07:48:22 -0000 Subject: Christmas carole/song, was: Re: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128625 SNIP - a whole lotta back and forth about a Christmas carol/song... celletiger here: "God Rest Thee Merry Gentlemen" reminds me of the British comedian Mr. Bean and his hillarious Christmas television special from some time in the 1980s. Relevance to the Potterverse: Mr. Bean used a widley known Christmas carol (GRTMG) as the background music of his programme. Just like JKR, religion is not the focus of the story, it merely provides a familiar background for readers. Non-Christians in predominatley Christian countries still get the day off of work on Dec 25. Christmas is universal. BTW, I want the same jumper Harry got in GOF with the dragon on it. celletiger, new orleans, louisiana, usa: come here, you'll never feel as welcome anywhere else in the world. From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sun May 8 08:51:02 2005 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 08:51:02 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128626 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: > > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? One of the Weasleys - my money is on Fred or George. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Godric Gryffindor who is also the "old lion guy" - my belief is that the house animals (lion for Gryffindor) were the animagi/patronus animlas of the four founders. Since the animal reflects the person - it is highly likely that Godric Gryffindor was lion-like. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Something related to her eyes? We do know that there is something important about Lily's and Harry's eyes. I'm going with the reflection theory that has been posted here very recently. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? New character. If it's the lion guy - then the lion guy can't be GG (or can he?). Which means that I'm necessarily wrong either in q. 1 or 4. Oh well. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I was sure it would be Arthur - but we know that that's not so. Madame Bones, I think. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? In all the subjects he tested for - potions, DADA, astronomy, divination, - I don't remember all of them. > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry will go through a big emotional 2. and moral crisis brought on by Sirius' death. 3. He will continue to blame Snape for Sirius dying 4. and be unable to fully accept his own part in what happened. 5. The lowest point of this crisis will be Harry casting an nforgivable curse on Snape. Naama From karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 8 09:26:59 2005 From: karenabarker at yahoo.co.uk (Karen Barker) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 09:26:59 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128627 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore (he's the only one I can bear to part with!) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) The new DADA Teacher ? see below 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Nothing will be revealed till book 7 but she worked as an unmentionable in the room behind the locked door in the MoM 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character with whom Harry will cross paths before school starts, without knowing who he is ? why change now?! 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Harry's pensieve ? he is given one or buys one and DD teaches him how to extract his memories and use it to see them. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes ? he gets an O in his OWL 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No ? but he did pass his OWL, possibly with an E 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All that he took (can't remember) except History of Magic Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. There is something somewhere about someone coming late to magic ? that is Petunia 2. Once Neville gets his own wand, his magical abilities improve by huge amounts therefore his overall confidence increases and he is less forgetful and clumsy. He is also the one who becomes a teacher eventually. 3. Hermione continues to try and press on with SPEW and comes very unstuck as a direct consequence of this. 4. Ron and Hermione openly admit that they fancy each other ? this makes Harry feel slightly separated from them both (though he is NOT jealous romantically of Hermione) so he becomes closer friends with Neville and Luna (closer than he is now, not closer than he is to Hermione and Ron). 5. Harry leaves privet drive early to visit Dumbledore and learn Occlumancy and the use of the pensieve and possibly Legillimancy too. That's my 2 knuts worth! Karen From littleleah at handbag.com Sun May 8 10:46:00 2005 From: littleleah at handbag.com (littleleahstill) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 10:46:00 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128628 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Probably Molly Weasley, as JKR has said really tough times for Harry are coming up, and I think another 'maimed mother' is on the cards. Molly seems to have things going on under the surface (attitude to Sirius, rejection of Hermione in GOF), not to mention the trouble with Percy, that may well lead her into a bad situation. McGonagall must also be a strong possibility. The first minor character to die will be Nott senior of his MOM injuries- his death will trigger something in Theodore, who is unaware of the way fellow DEs abandoned his dad, and he will initially become a rival to Draco as top dog in Slytherin and potential head of the DE Youth. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gyrffindor, who is probably, I think, the old lion guy. 3. What is Lily's secret: Wait for book 7. She was an unspeakable studying 'the old magic'; a charm related to eyes will be revealed 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Should be someone new, and probably old lion guy if he is not GG (see above). However, I liked the ideain a previous post that Madeye might return in person. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Parvati- it will not last. Serious stuff with Luna, and eventually, Ginny is book seven 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones is the logical choice. However, JKR has said (on her website, I think) that it will not be Arthur Weasley "alas", and that 'alas' makes me think someone as sensible and seemingly pro-DD as Madam Bones won't get the job. Dolores has discharged herself from the hospital wing.... 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is a sort of collective subconscious pensieve, into which all the head teachers of Hogwarts have put their most important memories. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, though he only gets an E in his OWLS- DD and McGonagall make Snape lower his standards. Snape owes DD because of Occlumency. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, see above. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He gets Os in DADA and COMC, Es in potions and charms and As in the rest. McGonagall gives him lessons in 'remedial transfiguration'. He is allowed an A in History of Magic due to 'illness'. No one gets a mark in astronomy- everyone has to resit the exam due to the disruption in the summer, thus enabling us to see more of Firenze and Trelawny. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Luna learns something of importance during her hunt for the Crumple-horned Snornack 2. McGonagall will become aware of Harry's abilities as a Metamorphmagus. 3. Neville learns more about his plant and the gum wrappers 4. The school becomes more and more divided 5. As in POA, VM is offscreen, regrouping and recruiting openly- the past is important in this book, as is time. Leah 5. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 8 13:48:11 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 13:48:11 -0000 Subject: New Minister of Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128629 I've been surprised at the number of predictions for Amelia Bones as the new Minister of Magic. From what little we've seen of her, I think she would be a very good one. However, JKR answers a question about the new Minister on her website in the FAQ section: Will Arthur Weasley become the new Minister? Alas, No. That wording seems to mean that there is something unfortunate about the new choice for Minister. That is, it would have been better if it had been Arthur. It could also mean that unfortunately, something has happened to Arthur. We know that Harry will leave Privet Drive for a more pleasant reason than a trial,(as in OoP) so I don't think HBP will start with something bad at the Weasley home. I've also thought the new Minister might be Dumbledore, and it's unfortunate that he isn't still Headmaster. But based on DD's comments at the end of OoP, I don't think that's the case either. Potioncat From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Sun May 8 13:51:42 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 06:51:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Predictions not posted yet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050508135142.86000.qmail@web53508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128630 I have had a blast reading all of the predictions!! (I like the squid one!!). I have had some thoughts that I have been waiting for somone to include in their predictions. Some of these have already been discussed but I am just curious as to what everyone's thoughts are on them now. I have seen people predict meeting a Hogwarts teacher's spouse but no one thinks the "Lion Man" is that spouse. Something that I did not include but have been tossing around.... the joke shop.... is it actually a weapons shop "undercover"? What if Tonks is either DADA or helps with DA and she teaches the DA to be - to some degree - metamorphmages.... could you imagine the next battle?? The next person to die, many people have listed as DD but we know that muggles will also be killed. How safe are Hermione's parents? Everyone agrees that a pensive will be included in the next book. Everyone also agrees that Occlumency will be included. What if the pensive is used - not to examine thoughts - but to rid thoughts that LV can use against Harry in a battle. What would those thoughts be? Harry has already mastered the thoughts that the dementors brought out. Just a few questions that have been crossing my mind (I have very little to think about at work with no one to talk to and no radio to listen to) moonmyyst __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun May 8 14:10:57 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 07:10:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rosmerta - First or Last name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01c553d7$c8375270$fe1bf204@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 128631 Geoff: Your comment led me led to wonder in which part of the UK you live. I would never call a female acquaintance by her last name only without the prefix "Mrs." or "Miss" and I have never heard any other adult do likewise. You will occasionally hear teenagers call others by last names but even that is much less common than it was in years past. When I first started teaching in a single-sex school, it was customary to call the boys by their last names but that fell out of use when we went co-educational. I might jokingly call a man "Jonesy" or "Smithy" but otherwise, most informal contact would involve using their first name. Sherry now: I don't have my braille books handy and it's too crazy to look up one particular section in an audio book, but do any adults call Rosemerta "Madam"? Could the title be more of a respect thing for the children to use? When my best friends boys were very small they called me "Miss Sherry", because their parents wanted them to use some kind of respectful title when addressing adults. They didn't like the way kids were going around calling any and all adults by their first names and wanted them to learn some respect for older people. now, the kids call me Aunt Sherry, but it's the same principle except that I'm considered a member of the family and they gave me a family title. However, as we see in the Potter books, the kids routinely call adults some sort of formal title. Here in the states, it's become old-fashioned for kids to refer to adults by titles like Mr. or Mrs. in many cases. Yet in the Potter world, Harry always refers to the Weasley parents as Mr. or Mrs., just to name one example. So, i always thought the words Madam Rosemerta were sort of a courtesy used mostly by the hoards of school children. Sherry From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Sun May 8 16:14:34 2005 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:14:34 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: <427C90BD.5050200@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tigerpatronus wrote: > > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old caracters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore or Prof.McGonagal > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Aberforth or possibly Lockhart > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) The green eyes indicate a power, like parseltongue. Dumbledore knows, and is waiting for Harry to show if he's inherited it. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks or Kingsley > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, as a lead-up to Hermione > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve, but not Dumbledore's. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven: DADA - O, Potions - O, Charms - E, CoMC - E, Transfiguration - E, Herbology - A History of Magic - A Predictions : Prof. Sprout or Madam Pince or Prof. Trelawney will be killed by the D.E.s, as a non-combatant. Ginny and Harry will get together, but it won't work out to be romantic, and they'll part friends. Got to have Ginny in the final battle! Ron will ask Hermione out, and that won't be successful either. Molly or Arthur Weasley will die, returning Percy to his senses and the family fold. There will be a battle at Hogwarts. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria, counting off the days. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 8 17:25:33 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:25:33 -0000 Subject: Peter as Judas? (was: Christians in HP - in a purely historical way) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128633 > > Tonks: > > Good one. Never thought of the silver hand in that way before. > > Could very well be that he is the Judas. I have imagined it to be > > Ron at a later date. But I do like your idea. Perhaps Peter meant > > his telling LV where the Potters were in the same way that Judas did > > with Jesus. That is, Judas was a Zealot (a political group > > advocating a violent takeover) and he thought that if he told where > > Jesus was it would force Jesus' hand to bring about the revolution. > > Judas did not understand that this was not the plan. Judas never > > understood that it would not be a bloody war. When he realized how > > mistaken he was and what he had done he was overcome with remorse, > > after he got the 30 pieces of silver he went and gave it back to > > them. And then he went out and hung himself. So it would fit more > > than I realized before. Perhaps that is what Peter did. If that is > > the case then I will have to change my prediction about Ron. > > > Sophierom: > > Interesting! I never realized that about Judas (my understanding of > Biblical stories and theology is quite limited!). So are you > suggesting, then, that Peter Pettigrew was more of a zealot than a > coward? That somehow he thought turning to LV would spark some sort of > confrontation? (Or were you giving that information as background > about zealotry to explain Judas's decision to hang himself?) > > I can't see Peter Pettigrew as a zealot, especially given his own > admission of fear in the Shrieking Shack I'd say your understanding of "Biblical Stories" is adequate. There is nothing in the New Testament to suggest that Judas was a revolutionary. In fact there is very little known about him at all, aside from his being "one of the twelve" and the traitor. One evangelist out of the four mentions also the sum paid and a suicide committed. However, I would be first to agree, that Judas's being a zealot is a more likely contingency than Pettigrew's being a revolutionary and committing his act of betrayal for the higher purpose. An established view on Judas as a filthy traitor would have suited Pettigrew-Judas analogy far better than any apocryphal one. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 8 17:32:31 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:32:31 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128634 Khilari wrote: > And Draco Malfoy may be next in line to inherit. Not if wizards adhere to the law of primogeniture. And if they don't then Sirius could have willed it to Harry. Or to Remus, for that matter. a_svirn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 8 17:39:20 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:39:20 -0000 Subject: Rosmerta - First or Last name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lea" wrote: > Had an interesting conversation with another HP friend of mine about > Madam Rosmerta. I've always thought that Rosmerta was her last name, > and was surprised to find out others think it is her first name. So, > I'm wondering what your opinions are? > > My reasoning for believing this to be her last name: > > Madam Pomfrey (Poppy Pomfrey), Madam Pince (Irma Pince), .... So why > would Madam Rosmerta be different and be a first name? bboyminn: I think Rosmerta is her first name. I was hoping more people from Britian would respond to confirm, but I don't think this intermediate from of address is that uncommon. Indeed that is exactly what it is, an intermediate form of address that shows both respect and an informal familiarity. For example, it wouldn't be uncommon for a servant who is on very comfortable terms with the young son of his employer, to refer to the son as Master 'first name' as in Master William, Master Harry, etc.... Again, showing both respect and comfortable familiarity. I've seen this often in literature and movies/TV. One would assume that for a girl in the same situation, she would be referred to as Miss 'first name'. Given that Rosmerta is in the hospitality business, she and her customers would want to be on very friendly terms, but even with that friendliness, they would not actually be social friends. Madame Rosmerta is a business woman, which deserves respect, but since she is in the business of 'serving' people, that softens her position by demanding some deferential respect from her. So they reach an unspoken social compromise, resulting in the combination of a formal title and the friendly familiar first name. In Fudge's case, he is the Minister of Magic, presumably the hightest office in the land, that puts him in a position where he has little need to be deferential to anyone. Which is why he is comfortable calling Rosmerta by just her first name. Indeed, it is probable a social plus for Rosmerta to be address in such a comfortable and familiar way by the Minister. I suspect few common people are on first name basis with the Minister. So what we are seeing her is a not unprecedented example of a blend of the formal and the familiar. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun May 8 18:16:26 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 18:16:26 -0000 Subject: New Minister of Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128636 potioncat --------- I've been surprised at the number of predictions for Amelia Bones as the new Minister of Magic. From what little we've seen of her, I think she would be a very good one. However, JKR answers a question about the new Minister on her website in the FAQ section: Will Arthur Weasley become the new Minister? Alas, No. tinglinger ---------- I believe that the new MoM will be Amos Diggory. The MoM needs one more arrogant moron to run things until they are totally discredited as buffoons. (btw I would not be suprised if there is some vampire blood in him, which may be why Cedric wanted Harry to bring his body back to his parents in GOF) potioncat --------- I've also thought the new Minister might be Dumbledore, and it's unfortunate that he isn't still Headmaster. But based on DD's comments at the end of OoP, I don't think that's the case either. tinglinger ---------- Albus reinstated himself after he ordered Fudge to boot out Umbridge. The reinstatement was reported in the Daily Profit (sic) at start of last chapter of OOP potioncat --------- That wording seems to mean that there is something unfortunate about the new choice for Minister. That is, it would have been better if it had been Arthur. It could also mean that unfortunately, something has happened to Arthur. We know that Harry will leave Privet Drive for a more pleasant reason than a trial,(as in OoP) so I don't think HBP will start with something bad at the Weasley home. tinglinger ---------- I don't think so either.... to much else is going on in the WW. I think the first chapter will tell us what happened at GH since that will fill in a lot of the backstory needed to move Book 6 onward before the final Harry-Voldemort confrontation in the first half of Book 7. Then in chapter two the second war will really get rolling. RIP Luna's Dad. Welcome to Privet Drive, Luna! tinglinger who predicts he will post his predictions after the final reading of all five books pre HBP..... and is still busy with potterplots http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun May 8 18:26:10 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 18:26:10 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128637 Khilari ------- And Draco Malfoy may be next in line to inherit. a_svirn ------- Not if wizards adhere to the law of primogeniture. And if they don't then Sirius could have willed it to Harry. Or to Remus, for that matter. tinglinger ---------- When Harry used the fire to ask Sirius for the truth about his dad after SWM, Lupin was suprised in the kitchen reading a piece of parchment, which he took with him when he went to get Sirius. My guess is that piece of parchment was Sirius' will calling for Harry to inherit Grimauld Place if anything were to happen to him and for Lupin to be the will's executor and to be made Harry's guardian and be allowed to live in GP until Harry graduates Hogwarts. That paper, like all papers described in OOP (DDs SK location, the Droobles gum wrapper, and this one) will be very important in HBP. tinglinger ---------- who is happy for electronic paper to post his theories so as not to tick off the driuds and bowtruckles of the trees that otherwise would be sacrificed. more theories and plot points at http:/groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 8 18:26:23 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 18:26:23 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > Khilari wrote: > > > And Draco Malfoy may be next in line to inherit. > A_Svirn > Not if wizards adhere to the law of primogeniture. And if they don't > then Sirius could have willed it to Harry. Or to Remus, for that > matter. > > a_svirn bboyminn: Relative to primgeniture, ask yourself this, who is the oldest living male with Black blood flowing in his veins, and combine that with the general Common Law aspect which does not allow inheritences to /ascend/? That would be Draco. He is the oldest living male, that we know of, who has Black blood. I posted this in the OT group, but since it is being discussed here, I will take this opportunity to post it again. This is a summary, so it's not detailed and doesn't mention how cousins fit in. "Addressing the Duke and Inheriting his Loot" http://it.uwp.edu/lansdowne/als.html - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Which says in part- Normal Rules for Inheritance of Property- Under English Common Law all property descended to the eldest surviving son, or if there were no surviving sons, then was equally divided among the surviving daughters. If there were no daughters it fell to the eldest brother. If there were no brothers it was equally divided among sisters. If there were neither brothers nor sisters it could not ascend to the father, uncles, grandfather etc. It always descended, never ascended. Note that this differs from the rules for titles, which could ascend (to an uncle, for instance). Common Law made no provision whatever for a man's younger descendants other than the eldest's obligation by honor to care for them. Not all were honorable, however, and Common Law could and sometimes did leave the younger descendants in dire straits, as all regency romance readers are well aware (a favorite plot). Thus the origin of entails, settlements and (later) wills. Major landowners (the nobility and the landed gentry) needed a way to ensure that their younger children were not left completely dependent on the primary heir. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - It would be nice if we could find a more detailed explanation so we could see how cousins fit into the scheme. Direct line of decendancy is alway perferred, for example, the son of the dead man's son (grandson) would take precidence over the dead man's brother. The son of a son is directly down the blood line, whereas a shift to the dead man's brother would be sideways. Among eligible females, the oldest is not given preference. Which means either the female Black cousins share equally or Draco gets it all. Of course, IF Sirius created a Will naming Harry, that changes everything. Then it would be a battle between standard inheritance and the stated intent of the dead person. That conflict is enough to bring the matter to the courts for an independant ruling on who gets what. Also, as I like to remind people, there are really two inheritances to contend with Sirius Black's personal estate, and the Black Family estate. I'm assuming slightly different rules would apply. For what it's worth. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 8 18:50:02 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 18:50:02 -0000 Subject: Question about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128639 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wherr009" wrote: > According to the prophecy > > "...AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHERFOR NEITHER CAN > LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES..." > > Does this mean that only Voldemort can kill Harry and if so what > were to happen if someone (not Voldemort) where to use Avada > Kedavra on Harry? > > "wherr009" bboyminn; We've touched on various aspects of this recently, and I think the answer is, we don't know. The question is even more complex than you've stated it. First, it works both ways; Harry and/or Voldemort MUST die at the other's hand. But, if for example, Harry MUST be killed by Voldemort, does it by extention imply that Harry can ONLY be killed by Voldemort, and if ONLY Voldemort can kill him, by reasonable extention NO ONE ELSE CAN KILL HIM. The same applies to Voldemort, if only Harry can kill him, then by extention, no one else is capable of killing him. In a sense, they both have a degree of Immortality, or at least a qualified invulnerability. Further complicating the matter is the every so slight difference between dying and being killed. I speculated in another post that Voldemort had guarded himself against being killed. That means he can't die if you curse, stab, shoot, or throw him off the roof, but it doesn't prevent him from having a heart attack and dying. Then again, if Voldemort gets hit by a bus, is he being killed or is he merely dying? The same could be true about Harry. It could be that Harry can't be killed/murdered by anyone but Voldemort, but he could still die by accident or illness. It's a easy question with a very difficult and complex answer. Steve/bboyminn From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Sun May 8 19:26:14 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:26:14 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128640 OK, it seems everybody publish predictions, so I must hazard some or they'll say I chickened out. > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? None of the really major characters will die. Some secondary will. My candidates: Moody, Percy, Dean, Cho, > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Godric Gryffindor. He was the son of a witch and a royal muggle (probably Harold, the last Anglo-Saxon King of England). Harry will talk to his memory that was preserved in some magical device, possibly the Sorting Hat, a portrait or some great mother Pensieve. > 3.What is Lily's big secret? It's not Snape or Lupin who were in love with her, but Peter. This might wait for Book 7, however. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis, the "Lion man", who is Godic Gryffindor's last descendent. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Cho and Ginny. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? A character we haven't met yet. He/she will turn out to be one of the bad guys and will be demoted by the end of the book. The next Minister will be Arthur Weasley. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It's a Pensieve, but it's not DD's Pensieve. It is a mother Pensieve that retains memories of many people long dead. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, although he only received an A in the OWL test. DD will intervene to get him into the NEWT class, and Snape will not fail to remind him of that. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, because HE received an O in the OWL test. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six: DADA (O), Charms (E), Transfiguration (E), CoMC (E), Potions (A), Herbology (A) > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. After a birthday party thrown by his friends in the Dursley's house, Harry will be transported to Spinner's End, which is the Order's new HQ. It's in the far end of Knocktrun Alley. 2. Harry will spend the holidays vacation in the Longbottoms house. 3. Fred and George in their "Weasley Wizarding Weezies" store, under the disguise of producing joke stuff, will be secretly inventing and manufacturing special magical weapons and/or equipment for the Order of the Phoenix. 4. It will be found that Snape, at DD's orders, testified after VWI that Lucius Malfoy (and probably also Avery, Nott, Macnair, Crabbe and Goyle) were not DEs, in order to convince them he's still a loyal DE at heart. 5. Harry will meet Tom again, in Voldemort's memories through the scar connection. Neri From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 8 19:28:37 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:28:37 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > Khilari wrote: > > > > > And Draco Malfoy may be next in line to inherit. > > > A_Svirn > > Not if wizards adhere to the law of primogeniture. And if they don't > > then Sirius could have willed it to Harry. Or to Remus, for that > > matter. > > > > a_svirn > > > bboyminn: > > Relative to primgeniture, ask yourself this, who is the oldest living > male with Black blood flowing in his veins, and combine that with the > general Common Law aspect which does not allow inheritences to /ascend/? > > That would be Draco. He is the oldest living male, that we know of, > who has Black blood. > I honestly do not think that the rule of primogeniture allows male cousins to inherit through the female line. A girl ? if she is a direct heir ? can inherit on a condition that later the lands, manorial rights etc., etc, would pass to her heirs male. But a cousin can inherit only through the male line and normally only from the original title- or landowner. Since Draco is related to Blacks through his mother, it doesn't apply to him. a_svirn From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Sun May 8 10:31:30 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (parisfan_ca) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 10:31:30 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128642 Well, here's my 2 cents worth.... > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Remus Lupin > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Neville > 3. What is Lily's big secret? I am guessing she did some major spying for DD and got herself into a few compromising postitions. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone new and hopefully on DD's side. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood or Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? That'd be DD's pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes and Snape will be doubly hard on Harry. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I'd say no. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I say Harry will pass everything with flying colours. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. 1. Harry inherits Grimmauld Place (much to his chagrin as well as Kreacher's.) 2. We learn more about Snape (hopefully enough back story to show why he is so bitter but not enough to ruin the character). 3. Neville FINALLY stands up to Snape and tells him to take a royal hike. 4. Draco sides with LV after his dad is in jail but has an 'oh, CRAP' moment once in LV camp and manages to switch sides realizing he ain't as bad ass as his dad and when pa hears this disinherits the lad. 5. Either Snape and/or Lupin had a crush on Lily. Laurie From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sun May 8 11:40:20 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 11:40:20 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128643 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Either Gred or Forge. I'll pick George. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Gryffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? 4.Who will be the new DADA teacher? Old Lion Guy 5.With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He won't have a romantic relationship as such, but he'll spend a considerable amount of time with Luna. 6.Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, of course. How else will he and Snape be able to get in each other's faces? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six. 1. Molly will inadvertentently betray the Order by doing something to try and protect one of her loved ones. 2. Harry will obtain something that had been in Sirius' possession (either willed to Harry or given to him by Remus) that will prove significant in unravelling the secrets of the past. 3. Hermione and Ron finally become an acknowledged couple. 4. Snape's Death Eater past will be at least partially revealed. It will show that while he never murdered anyone directly, his actions contributed to the deaths of others. After all, if there is a redemptive pattern to his character, he has to have done something more awful than simply brew really good tea for Vmort! 5. Finally, for all you One True Way-ers out there, JKR will continue to write about the relationship between Remus and Sirius in ways that could be interpreted to mean that they were lovers at some point in their lives. Marianne From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun May 8 16:29:42 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 16:29:42 -0000 Subject: Rosemerta - first or last name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128645 Definitely Rosemerta is her first name and the students call her Madame Rosemerta out of respect for an adult. This even more underlines the disrespect Harry has for Snape. Harry frequently refers to him as Snape and is constantly reminded by DD to use his title, Professor Snape. DD demands respect for Snape from all most especially Harry. I think DD knows that Harry needs Snape and must learn respect him even if he does not like him. BG From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun May 8 17:06:58 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 17:06:58 -0000 Subject: The Pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128646 In GF DD tells Harry that the pensieve helps him spot patterns in and links between memories. Possibly DD is teaching Harry to find patterns and links from memories in the Pensieve that will help him arm himself for what is to come. DD may also be teaching Harry how to extract his own thoughts and deposit them in the Pensieve. I think DD paces a lot in his study (POA) because he knows what is to come from studying the patterns and links (P&L). This is a history of the WW. Also, it is clear that when one experiences an event using thoughts from the Pensieve it is as if they were there themselves not as person whose memory it is. This way DD can get others viewpoints about the event. And DD can go back to the event and experience it again as an older and wiser person and get a whole new perspective. BG From scolere at gmail.com Sun May 8 18:47:49 2005 From: scolere at gmail.com (Sass) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 19:47:49 +0100 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: <1115554576.6611.62370.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1115554576.6611.62370.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128647 >1. Who will be the most major character to die? Not Dumbledore. I think Dumbledore will sacrifice himself to protect Harry near the end of Book 7 and that will spur Harry to attempt to kill Voldemort (in revenge). If Harry survives, he'll become the DADA teacher (post-book 7) and train to be an Auror. I think it'll be Peter Pettigrew - (a) because JKR seems to be killing off the Marauders in reverse order from the way they're named on the Map, and that means Wormtail's next, and (b) it's about time the bad guys lost someone ! I think PP will try to somehow repay his debt to Harry for sparing his life in PoA, and that Voldemort will learn of it and he'll toture PP with the Cruciatus curse before killing him. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) I really don't know - maybe Felix, the Old Lion Guy (who I think is a descendant of Godric Gryffindor), but it may be another character altogether, but I think it's someone new, because every person or thing named in the book titles has been new (or newly significant in Sirius' case) for that book. >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) No idea ! I didn't realise she had one !! >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix, the Lion Guy. >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Pass ! The teen relationships really don't interest me... >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Probably Madam Bones. >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Can't say I've looked at the pic. of US cover that closely (or indeed the UK one for that matter) - pensieve ? >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes - he'll have got an E because he's exceeded expectations by doing quite well with Snape breathing down his neck !! >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No - for the sake of his own sanity, I think not ! >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Er, can't recall how many he took - probably everything except Divination and History of Magic. > Predictions (0-10 points each): Something bad will happen to one or more of the Weasleys - I've no idea what, or to whom, though ! I'm rather heavily engaged in research for a HP/LotR paper and haven't given book 6 *that* much thought, being so deeply engrossed in re-reading books 1 - 5! I'll give book 6 its due consideration once it's in my hands. . . I'm afraid I really only joined this group to wade through the archives to find out if you'd ever discussed Harry's dreams from books 1 - 3! Sass -- "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca From hannah at readysolve.com Sun May 8 20:51:12 2005 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 20:51:12 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128648 > > Of course, IF Sirius created a Will naming Harry, that changes > everything. Then it would be a battle between standard inheritance and > the stated intent of the dead person. That conflict is enough to bring > the matter to the courts for an independant ruling on who gets what. > > Also, as I like to remind people, there are really two inheritances to > contend with Sirius Black's personal estate, and the Black Family > estate. I'm assuming slightly different rules would apply. > > For what it's worth. > > Steve/bboyminn Thank you. Even if it winds up contested the order are in trouble, I think, since I doubt it's legal to have a place hidden by secret keeper that may not belong to you. Do you think DD would just refuse to reveal it? He doesn't always obey the rules. Khilari. From kersberg at chello.nl Sun May 8 19:19:29 2005 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 19:19:29 -0000 Subject: Question about the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128649 "wherr009" wrote: > "...AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHERFOR NEITHER CAN > LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES..." I don't think the prophecy guarantees any kind of invulnerablity to the both of them against attacks or assassination attempts by others than by one of them. It more or less predicts that all attempts by others will fail, by sheer mishap, coincidence or the sacrifice of an ally. A prophecy most times is a kind of end calculation without showing all the events included all those non-seen events are part and necessary for the outcome of the prophecy. When for instance the prophecy has an included attempt of Dumbledore to A.K. Voldemort, which fails because Lucius sacrifices himself and takes the blow (please, please, please JKR kill Lucius horribly), the prophecy can run its course. If however Dumbledore decides at the critical moment NOT to A.K. Voldemort because he thinks the prophecy says it's impossible, a whole new event will happen, which was not the original course of that prophecy. "kamion53" From hannah at readysolve.com Sun May 8 21:02:42 2005 From: hannah at readysolve.com (khilari2000) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 21:02:42 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128650 Khilari2000 predicts: > > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Charlie Weasley > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Viktor Krum > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She cast an experimental charm on Harry allowing him to survive AK. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone we haven't met, probably the lion guy. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Percy Weasley > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A penseive which DD will teach Harry to use. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? > 6 > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > > 1. Arthur Weasley will raid Malfoy Manor while Lucius is in Azkaban. > 2. A ridiculous sounding story in the Quibbler will turn out to be true. > 3. There will be a major dementor attack which the DA will have to fight. > 4. Snape will be caught spying by LV but will not die. > 5. One of the twins jokeshop products will be used by Harry to escape from a dangerous situation. > > Comments? Suggestions? > >Khilari. From kersberg at chello.nl Sun May 8 13:55:13 2005 From: kersberg at chello.nl (P.Kersbergen) Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 15:55:13 +0200 Subject: Rosmerta - First or Last name References: Message-ID: <004001c553d5$8e72e100$b12ca33e@AHYAXHIL> No: HPFGUIDX 128651 Ray: > Fudge actually calls her, "Rosmerta, m'dear" indicating a > certain level of intimacy. Hagrid also calls her Rosmerta, > so I have to assume that it is, indeed, her first name. Geoff: > I would never call a female acquaintance by her last name only > without the prefix "Mrs." or "Miss" and I have never heard any > other adult do likewise. Maybe the Three Broomsticks has a side job better not mentioned in the non-adult versions and is that the reason Rosmerta is called a Madame. "kamion53" From hells456 at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 8 23:10:56 2005 From: hells456 at yahoo.co.uk (hells456) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 00:10:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050508231056.37691.qmail@web26302.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128653 Khilari: > Even if it winds up contested the order are in trouble, I think, > since I doubt it's legal to have a place hidden by secret keeper > that may not belong to you. Do you think DD would just refuse to > reveal it? He doesn't always obey the rules. Hells: Does anyone official even know that Sirius is dead? Do they know he owns the house? After all you would think someone at the MoM would keep an eye on his house when he was on the run, and I don't think Kingsley was the only one after him. The DEs are hardly likely to say Sirius battled against them and risk exposing Pettigrew. The Order can't say he was on their side in case they get in more hot water for concealing his whereabouts. It also might be immaterial who inherits if the house can't be found, Dumbledore doesn't have to admit to being secret keeper, and if he does he will have time to remove all Order related business first. From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Sun May 8 23:34:44 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 23:34:44 -0000 Subject: Repost of KITTENS & RAINBOWS, part III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128654 TBAY response: The KITTENS & RAINBOWS is rocking quietly with the surf on Theory Bay. Captain Maus, having just finished expounding on why possession and love are the keys to the Battle at the End. The Captain's presentation was so thorough that the crowd is momentarily silenced in awe. Constance Vigilance steps out of the crowd. CV: Captain, your theory, despite the one glaring inaccuracy of claiming that the Q-man is in fact dead at the moment (see my published works), is compelling. I find one thing especially interesting in this context. Herself has stated that eyes are Harry's weakness. I think the true weakness is Love. Harry sees a loving family in the Mirror of Erised, and people are known to have died sitting before that mirror. Dumbledore has to pull Harry away from the Mirror with a warning to that effect. Harry's most beloved parent figure just went through the Veil, and Harry looks longingly at the mirror in Book 5. Could this be the weapon that could be used against Voldemort? If a part of him is currently inside Harry, per KITTENS & RAINBOWS, can we assume that Voldy is learning about love? Perhaps the Mirror or the Veil may end up being the one best way to defeat the most powerful wizard? Captain, while you are in town, perhaps you might like to visit the Hog's Head tavern where TBAY action is alive and well? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hogs_Head/ ~ Constance Vigilance, holding court from Quirrell Corner in the HH From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Sun May 8 23:37:38 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 23:37:38 -0000 Subject: Addendum to HBP Rules Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128655 Please make sure you email me your predictions. Predictions that only go to the list are too hard for me to find. Please make sure you post your predictions. When in doubt, it's a good backup. Predictions are due in my inbox before July 16, 2005, at NOON EDT. Minions will be solicited at a later date. Entering the contest is no excuse. TK -- TigerPatronus From DANCERWH86 at aol.com Mon May 9 00:18:29 2005 From: DANCERWH86 at aol.com (DANCERWH86 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 20:18:29 -0400 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: <1115594849.21682.11082.m29@yahoogroups.com> References: <1115594849.21682.11082.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <8C72243C2DE93BA-E80-A34A@FWM-D29.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128656 I wasn't sure if I'd throw my two cents in, but I decided to go for it! So here are my predictions. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? As many have said, Dumbledore. It would only make sense that Harry's mentor die prior to the final battle. Harry's going to find the person to give him the most guidance, to be the closest to being a father/grandfather figure is no longer there. It may also give him renewed purpose in the battle. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? I'm going to go with Godric Gryffindor. I feel like we learned a lot about Slytherin in Chamber of Secrets (Maybe a lot is an overstatement, but a decent amount), while all we know about Godric is that he felt the school should be open to all people with magical abilities. Being the half blood prince would make sense for his feelings toward Muggle borns and also give us background on him. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Lily's secret I think will be that Harry is related to Voldemort. I think we'll find out more about Lily's family background. Maybe back in the day, way down the bloodlines Tom Riddle Sr. the muggle father of Voldemort was in fact related to the Evans'. This would make Tom and Harry some kind of distant relation. 4.Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone knew that we don't know about yet. That's how it's always been and if there's going to be a change in this (i.e. Lupin coming back, Snape finally getting the job etc...) it won't happen until Book 7. For Book Six it will simply be a transient person who isn't completely on the right page/side of good. This person will be instrumental in whatever battles take place (as the DADA teacher generally is in some way) 5.With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? We'll see the starts of a relationship with Ginny, but nothing to serious will happen in Book 6. There might be some leanings toward romatics between the two, but it'll be innocent and sweet with nothing to serious or anything. They won't be inseperable in other words at this point. 6.Who will be the new Minister of Magic? A DE most likely. Another obstruction for the side of good. Amelia Bones is a decent guess, but I feel like that would make things better and I think things still need to get worse for the good guys. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Harry and Snape have to interact for better or worse. Plus, Harry is a decent student who should be able to get into the class on his merits and we're assuming he's still on the path to being an auror which means he really needs advanced potions. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. I honestly don't think it would be realistic for him to get into the class with his past history in potions and I doubt he would want to (Other than his grandmother wishing him to) 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? At least five. 1. Sirius is in fact dead, but that doesn't mean he's completely gone. I think Sirius will be present in some way though not corporeal. I don't think he'll be a ghost, but I have a theory that like Obi Wan and Yoda in the Star Wars films, Sirius will become one with the force. He'll be gone and at peace after all his suffering, but he may appear in some way when Harry needs him most (particularly if Dumbledore or someone else close to Harry dies). 2. Harry will see the light at the end of the tunnel and know that he has to buckle down and fight for what's right. Lately Harry has been becoming angrier and angrier about his destiny and what not. I think the acceptance of his place in this war will come in Book 6 that Book 7 will be him executing what has to be done. Instead of seeing the opposite (Harry enraged by the growing war and Sirius's death and possibly other deathes) we'll see him really grow up in this book. 3. The Bowl-thing on the US cover is not nerely as important as it seems. I think it is merely a red-herring so that the cover does not give too much away. It will be a detail, but not a key element of the plot. Everyone will be waiting for this thing to materialize and have some great meaning when in fact it will only make whatever true twist lies within twice as more shocking. 4. Hermione's parents will die. Perhaps its too much fanon that has infected my brain, but Hermione is a key player in the war and Voldemort must know this. I doubt he will go about killing other Muggle families and not touch Hermione's. I think her parents are as good as dead with the start of the war. Which leads me to... 5.The Dursleys will be forced to seek refuge in the wizarding world much to their chagrin. Just because they treat Harry bad doesn't mean Voldemort will let them off the hook either. The importance of Lily's blood being near Harry has been recurrent throughout the series so steps will be made to ensure they are safe. This may also change their relationship with Harry (Some sort of understand, thankfulness) and also help Harry by being near his mother's blood throughout the book not just part of the summer. Lindsay ~~~~~ I once saw a forklift lift a crate of forks. And it was way too literal for me! ~Mitch Hedberg [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 9 01:08:58 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 01:08:58 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128657 Neri wrote: > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? > > Yes, although he only received an A in the OWL test. DD will intervene > to get him into the NEWT class, and Snape will not fail to remind him > of that. > > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? > > Yes, because HE received an O in the OWL test. Potioncat: This is the best I-don't-care-if-it-comes-true-it's-still-a-great prediction that I've seen! From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon May 9 01:35:57 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 01:35:57 -0000 Subject: Symbols - A Detective's POV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128658 I have posted from time to time about the Christian Symbols in HP and this has caused some conflict on the list. I would like to explain my POV in a more basis manner and will start where I should have started, from the beginning. Symbols - A Detective's POV When is a story just a story and when is it something else? A number of years ago I had never heard about Harry Potter, but 2 of my elderly friends wanted the book for Christmas and then I heard that the book had been banned in some conservative southern state. Banning a book in this day and age? What is all the fuss over some kid's book? I read a lot, but not fiction; too many books, too little time in one lifetime. I had not read a book of fiction for 30 years. I went to the library and to the children's section and checked out SS. Read it over a weekend and became, like everyone else, hooked forever. There was nothing here that justified banning this book from anywhere. It was a fascinating story, in a compelling world. But there was something else, towards the end of the book. The part where we learn of Harry's scar and his mother's love and her death. "Hummm, there is something familiar here. Could it be? Interesting, wonder what the author was thinking when she wrote that. Hummm. ?? I really like that old wizard with his wise words of wisdom, reminds me of a wise old monk that I know." So when is an image in a story a symbol and when isn't it? Lets look at that part of the book, near the end when DD explains to Harry the meaning of his mothers death. First we have the name of the mother. Lily. It is a woman's name, nothing more. To some it might invoke the image of a flower, to others a specific type of flower. Even then it could be an Asiatic Lily, a day Lily or the pure white lily used by Christian churches on Easter, and often referred to as an Easter Lily. Harry's aunt is Petunia so there is no reason to read anything into his mother being called Lily. Her parents just liked flower names. But wait, there is more. This woman died on Halloween to save her son. We are told that for some yet unknown reason that she did not have to die. LV was not planning to kill her. LV told her to stand aside. Humm.. Then we are told by this wise old wizard that Harry was saved, spared from death by the sacrificial death of his mother because of her love for him. And that the encounter that night at GH left Harry with the scar on his forehead. A really big *Hummm* here. So we have a woman named Lily and a sacrificial death out of Love. A Love so powerful that it triggered an ancient magic that saves her son from death. Those are the facts of the story. Pure facts. So when does a woman's name become a symbol of Christ? The name Lily becomes the image of an Easter lily when we put it together with the rest of this story. Why? Because in a country like the UK where Christianity is such a part of the cultural history that the Queen is considered the head of the church, the story of the sacrificial death of Jesus out of Love is very well know to everyone including non-Christians. If that is not enough, there is Harry's scar. This for me was the real telling sign which pulled it all together. Harry has a scar on his forehead. Now again a scar is just a scar. Even if it looks like a map of the London underground system, it is still only a scar. It means nothing unless it is tied to something else. Is there anything else associated with Harry's scar? Again the facts, madam, just the facts We are told that it is the mark that is left when a really dark wizard tried to kill Harry and the spell rebounded. Everyone in the WW sees it as a symbol of the "boy who lived". It is the symbol of the one who triumphed over death. Everyone in the WW sees it as a symbol of the defeat of the greatest evil wizard of the era. Harry is famous as the only one who came face to face with LV and his curse and lived. These are the facts. The pure basis facts of canon. If we put it all together we have this: A woman named Lily who did not have to die, but chose to die as a sacrifice to save her son from the most evil entity of that time. As a result the evil entity is vanquished and the innocent baby boy, her only son, is left alive and with a mark inflicted by the dark lord on his forehead. Now to RL. When a child or adult is being baptized into the Church is it customary for the priest (in the Anglican Church, which is the C of E in the UK) to mark the person with the sign of the cross on his forehead. It is the sign of Jesus' brush with the forces of darkness in the world and his overcoming death. Again putting all of this together we have both Lily as a symbol of Christ on the cross and His sacrificial Love and the mark of baptism on Harry as *everyman* into the death and resurrection of Christ (overcoming death at the hand of LV.) It is this symbolism in the end of the first book that has led me to wonder if the author was writing about something deeper that a simple fun story of good verses evil. I think, as I have said before, that the HP books are written in the style of the great Jewish Rabbi and scholar Maimonides who wrote "The Guide for the Perplexed". That book was written on 3 levels. Each reader could get something from it depending on their level of spiritual development. I think that JKR (either consciously or subconsciously) has done the same and this is why both children and adults can enjoy the books and even become obsessed by them. There are different layers of symbols in the books. But even if someone reads the books and doesn't see any symbols, it doesn't matter. The underlying message will still come through and that message is that in the war between good and evil, Love will be the answer. Tonks_op From stix4141 at hotmail.com Mon May 9 01:41:57 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 01:41:57 -0000 Subject: FILK: Politics Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128659 POLITICS A filk to the tune of "Politik" by Coldplay, on their wonderful album A Rush Of Blood To The Head. SCENE: OotP?Harry has just arrived at 12 Grimmauld Place and been reunited with his friends, but is still angry. HERMIONE: Every Daily Prophet page Has a mention of your name What they're saying's a disgrace And it happens every day HARRY: Wait a moment, I was there When Albus warned us to beware Dumbledore told Fudge that this Is no time for politics HERMIONE: Open up your eyes! Open up your eyes! Open up your eyes! Albus has no evidence Fudge is totally convinced That he wants the Ministry HARRY: All for listening to me? I'm not cracked, I told the truth Of the return of You-Know-Who! HERMIONE: They say you're a lunatic All because of politics Open up your eyes! Open up your eyes! Open up your eyes! You know we're on your side HARRY: Nobody bothered to tell me what, tell me what's going on Nobody cares what I've been through, been through all summer long -stickbook From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon May 9 02:03:53 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 02:03:53 -0000 Subject: The Whole Picture - and a Prophesy (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128660 I know we have debated this bit by bit, but I am going to try to pull it all together here in one post. I fear that it will be a long one. Also I invite others to do so as well for other religions, because I do think that there are symbols of other religions here as well, but they are not as obvious to me. So I invite someone to write from a Jewish prospective, a Buddhist perspective, and so on. Please don't mix them up. I think that JKR may have mixed them in her cauldron and I would like to take the potion apart and look at the elements. ------------------------------------------ Christian Symbolism in the Harry Potter books (abbreviation: XC mean Christ) DD is the equivalent of God LV is the equivalent of Satan There is probably something beyond the veil in the other world of the Ancient Magic that is the Source of both DD's goodness and LV's evil, but what we see visible in the world is in DD and LV. One could say the Essence of Good and the Essence of Evil exist in that other world, but the energies of Good/God and of Evil/Satan are visible to us in this world in the persons of DD and LV. Harry is Everyman to both WW and MW (all of us), but with Love dwelling within him. His WW counter would be Draco (a pure blood wizard) who is Everyman without the indwelling Love. And his MW counter is Dudley (a pure blood Muggle) is Everyman in the Muggle world without the indwelling Love. The 3 of them serve as examples of how one handles the problems of life in whatever world that you live in. Both DD and LV have lessons to teach us. DD teaches us about Love in all of the little *wise words of wisdom* that he give Harry. And LV teaches us about Hate in his discourses. LV teaches us that Power is everything and death is to be feared. DD says there are worse things than death and doing the right thing even if it is hard is better than taking the easy way. And Peter also shows us what happens to someone who took the easy way instead of dying for what he believed and for his friends. Throughout the series DD and LV are battling for our attention and our trust. But the main battle is between DD and LV within the heart, mind and soul of Harry. Only Harry can defeat LV within himself. They are somewhat like the idea of the demon on one shoulder and an angel on the other, whispering to us "do this", and "no do that". And the final choice is ours. Harry has much Love within him which he got from his mother. We know this because he has his mother's eyes. And Lily had the eyes of Love and Compassion. Lily = Love = XC = child of God (also of both worlds. A witch from Muggle parents. A mud-blood.) Tom Riddle = Hate = Surpant = child of Satan (also of both world. A half-blood) "One must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives." That night at GH part of LV went into Harry, but LV could not take over Harry because part of Lily was in Harry also. Part of XC was in Harry. And the ancient magic know to Lily is that Love is greater than all of the greatest evil. Lily trusted the Ancient magic with her life and soul and the life and soul of her son. LV may have known that there was something about Lily that could protect her from him and for this reason he did not try to kill her. Or perhaps he simply didn't want to take the time to kill her. But when she would not step aside, he became impatient and just killed her to get her out of the way. And that act of freely giving her life increased the Love that was in Harry. Lily's sacrifice is similar to that of Jesus on the cross. The marauders are James, John, Peter and Sirius. And Lily is a symbol of XC. Her giving her life for Harry is a symbol of XC death. The reason for this is that the Lily is a white flower symbol of purity in much the same way as an unblemished lamb is the symbol of purity in the Jewish faith. Lily is also the traditional Easter flower. Jesus was called the lamb of God, Lily serves the same purpose. She did not have to die; Jesus did not have to die. Both could have prevented their death. Jesus by a band of angels and Lily by stepping aside (or perhaps by some magic know to her and to LV.) So we have Lily = XC and the people around her have names of the primary disciples of Jesus. Peter is probably the symbol of Judas as another poster has suggested. Sirius is a star in the constellation of Leo. Leo = Lion, and Jesus is the Lion of Judah. Also in the book of Revelation it says that a rod (son) will come from the root of Jesse. Here this refers to the second coming of Jesus. Another more modern word for Jesse is James. Therefore, in the end time, at the final battle the leader of the battle will be the son of James. The son of James in our story is Harry. The final battle will be in book 7 just as in Revelations the final battle happens when the 7th seal is opened. (There are many other symbols of the book of Revelation in the HP books, but I will not go into them here.) Each book name has a XC symbol. SS/PS is the quest for eternal life. (John Granger has written a book explaining the XC symbols of Alchemy in HP. Alchemy in the Renascence was accepted as a practice that united you with God through purification of your soul. In the Middle Ages many well know Christians practiced Alchemy including Thomas Aquinas.) CS is both the tomb of man in the person of Adam and Eve and the tomb of XC. It is the symbol of both the sin in the garden complete with snake and the "new Adam" of XC overcoming death by the power of the Love of God through the resurrection represented by Faulks. PA is the symbol of the prison we are all in where we are tormented by Dementors day in and day out. Jesus taught us to "what so ever things are good, what so ever things are pure, think on these things," which is the way of overcoming the Dementors. GF is a symbol of the chalice used by XC at the last supper. The chalice is wood in both cases and in GF it has a flame in it that does not consume the wood. A non-consuming flame is the XC symbol of God. OP is a symbol of the Church (AKA the body of XC on earth) since the phoenix is the sign of XC and the order is composed of all sorts of ragamuffins that are battling the forces of evil in the world and in themselves. DD give a gift to the giants of the "everlasting fire" which is the same thing as the non-consuming flame, and a symbol of God the Father. HBP is by the name alone a symbol of Jesus as He was both God and man and the Prince of Peace and King of Heaven. Now my Prediction: I think the last book will be called "The Final Battle". In the end, in book 7 LV will kill Ron and perhaps Hermione also. And Harry will have to overcome the anger and hate within himself to show Love and forgiveness to LV and this is what will defeat LV. Because Love and Hate can not exist at the same time. "One must die at the hand of the other" Hate must die at the hand of Love, or Love must die at the hand of Hate. Harry has had a very hard life and yet in spite of his trials and struggles, trials so terrible that it even bring a tear to DD, Harry comes out time and again on the side of Love. At times Harry is kicking and screaming like us all, but in the end it is Love that wins. It is Love that he chooses. And he always has the choice to choose Hate over Love. The choosing of Love is always harder. Often it is a real sacrifice, sometimes even unto death. Harry may die, or he may not. I think that JKR hints that he will die a physical death. She may be doing this to prepare us for that or to play with us, which she loves to do. But either way we will see a death of LV within Harry, because of Harry's choice to respond to the most intense and brutal Hatred with forgiving Love. Tonks_op From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon May 9 02:45:41 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 02:45:41 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128661 > > > > > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Oh, let's be wild. I'll go with -- Hermione. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Godric Gryffindor, who is the "old lion guy." > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Hmmm. Let's go out on a limb again. Let's say that it wasn't really Dumbledore who worked the "ancient magic" on Harry, but Lily. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis (who isn't the lion guy). > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? In that he has one, it will be with Ginny. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Well, for the sake of being contrary, I'm going to say "No." I don't think it's realistic for Harry to have made an "O" on the Potions test and I don't think DD would want to antagonize Snape by forcing his hand on this. On the other hand, I'll predict that JKR had McGonagall make that remark about "If I have to coach you nightly..." for a reason, and she will give Harry private tutoring to make sure he remains on the path to be an auror. Oh, I predict that the events of the war will leave plenty of opportunity for the Snape/Harry antagonism to play out without Harry being in NEWT Potions. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > 1. Harry will "master his feelings" but not until the end of Book VI. A great deal of Book VI will be about his struggle to come to grips with Sirius' death, his destiny, so on and so forth. 2. We will never see the "old Harry" again. His anger in Book V heralded a permanent change in his character. Even if he does become calmer and more focused, his personality will have changed for the worse in many ways. 3. Similarly, Harry will never regard Dumbledore, Snape, or McGonagall in the same way. This will be a source of great tension in Book VI. 4. Harry will be the Gryffindor Quidditch Captain. He may be initially reluctant to take the job, but Dumbledore and/or McGonagall will insist. Dumbledore will partially reverse his policy with regard to not wanting to "overload" Harry with extraneous duties and will be concerned, perhaps behind the scenes, to involve Harry in activities that will distract him from dwelling constantly on his destiny and his losses. 5. Snape will be definitively revealed in either Book VI or Book VII as having genuinely left Voldemort. However, his inability to deal with the demons of his past will lead him into making a decision and/or taking an action that will result in tragedy for the Order. He will end up being the poster boy, not for redemption, but for the catastrophe that strikes those unable to forgive. There will be great howling and gnashing of teeth in the fandom as legions of Snape lovers complain that JKR has not played fair. Lupinlore From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Mon May 9 02:51:25 2005 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (Andromeda) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 02:51:25 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128662 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" > wrote: > > > Khilari wrote: > > > > > > > And Draco Malfoy may be next in line to inherit. > > > > > A_Svirn > > > Not if wizards adhere to the law of primogeniture. And if they > don't > > > then Sirius could have willed it to Harry. Or to Remus, for that > > > matter. > > > > > > a_svirn > > > > > > bboyminn: > > > > Relative to primgeniture, ask yourself this, who is the oldest > living > > male with Black blood flowing in his veins, and combine that with > the > > general Common Law aspect which does not allow inheritences > to /ascend/? > > > > That would be Draco. He is the oldest living male, that we know of, > > who has Black blood. > > > > > I honestly do not think that the rule of primogeniture allows male > cousins to inherit through the female line. A girl ? if she is a > direct heir ? can inherit on a condition that later the lands, > manorial rights etc., etc, would pass to her heirs male. But a > cousin can inherit only through the male line and normally only from > the original title- or landowner. Since Draco is related to Blacks > through his mother, it doesn't apply to him. > > a_svirn Andromeda now: I don't think the inheritance of the house will be an issue - after all, there's no evidence that Sirius is dead, so nothing to trigger any official inheriting laws. Plus, as long as the house is hidden by DD's Fidelus, no one can show up to claim it. My main qustion with the issue is: what happens with Kreacher? Does anything bind him to the house, or is he bound to find and serve the next inheritor? He stayed with the house as long as Sirius was alive (though absent and at least in some ways disowned). Kreacher must now know Sirius is dead - will he go to Narcissa or Bella or stay with the house? And if he stays, is it because of house-elf rules or because Dumbledore has to keep him there to prevent the spread of more secrets? I know someone suggested he would finally get his wish and have his head hung on the wall, but I just can't see DD doing that! And if Harry does, I'd be very worried about him. -Andromeda From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 9 03:39:59 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 03:39:59 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128663 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin (except he won't really be dead, but we won't find that out until Book 7) > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? The Giant Squid > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) No big Lily secrets in Book 6 > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis, the lion guy > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He will be pursued by Luna, but will start to notice Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Peeves > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. There will be a traitor in the Order 2. Harry will think it is Snape 3. Subtle clues will implicate Lupin 4. Luna Lovegood is a werewolf 5. Hermione will be alienated Pippin From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon May 9 05:01:22 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 05:01:22 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" > wrote: > > > Khilari wrote: > > > > > > > And Draco Malfoy may be next in line to inherit. > > > A_Svirn > > > Not if wizards adhere to the law of primogeniture. And if they > > > don't then Sirius could have willed it to Harry. Or to Remus, > > > for that matter. > > > > > > a_svirn > > > > > > bboyminn: > > > > ...,..., who is the oldest living male with Black blood flowing in > > his veins, ... > > > > That would be Draco. He is the oldest living male, that we know > > of, who has Black blood. > > > a_svirn responded: > > I honestly do not think that the rule of primogeniture allows male > cousins to inherit through the female line. A girl ? if she is a > direct heir ? can inherit on a condition that later the lands, > manorial rights etc., etc, would pass to her heirs male. But a > cousin can inherit only through the male line and normally only from > the original title- or landowner. Since Draco is related to Blacks > through his mother, it doesn't apply to him. > > a_svirn bboyminn: A_svirn, you are right in general principle, but, to the best of our knowledge, the only close living Black relatives are three female (presumably) first cousins, the son (Draco) of one of those cousins, and the daughter (Tonks) of one of the other cousins. Those are the only available relatives left to inherit anything, so whatever the answer is, one or more of them have to be a part of it. Either that, or the inheritance is lost to the state. Of the available, it's either equally among the three first cousins, or Draco, the oldest living male with Black Blood. The alternative is that it is lost, or new Black relatives appear in the story. Uncles, if they exist, generally don't inherit since the inheritance always DESCENDS. The only thing amending this or creating conflict is if Sirius left a Will; a Will that I'm sure will be contested. As far as storyline, the simplest resolution is to divide equally among the female cousins; quick, clean, and the story moves on. The best for interesting story line, and renewed and expanded conflict is for Harry and Draco to fight over it. I do agree with Andromeda that /for now/ the best thing for The Order is to keep Sirius's death quiet, but at some point, sooner or later, it's something that will have to be dealt with. As to Andromeda's point about Kreacher, I don't think Kreacher is still bonded by anything but general loyalty. As far as magical bonds or slavery, he has lost his Master, as well as all other Black ascendants and descendants, and is now a free agent. Again, I want to emphasize that even though I believe Kreacher is a free agent, he is still very loyal and dedicated to the Black family. In truth, sad as it is, and hard as it is to accept, I think Kreacher is dead. Dumbledore, benevolent as he is, simply could not allow a dangerous and unstable liability like Kreacher to continue, especially now that here was nothing to fully bind him to the House of Black. With nothing and no one to fully contain and control Kreacher, he was just too dangerous. It was the life of one very mad and deranged house-elf weighed against the lives of many many others. That's the way I see it. Steve/bboyminn From someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au Mon May 9 06:26:03 2005 From: someoneofsomeplace at yahoo.com.au (Someone) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 06:26:03 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128665 John: >> Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Trevor. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Grawp. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She *did* go out with the Giant Squid when asked to choose between it and James! > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape will finally get his wish...but soon find that the job isn't all it's cracked up to be, and resign, leaving Lupin to take over in book 7. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Bonesy, Susan. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Bonesy, Aunt. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? DD's pensieve, of course! > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Nah. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes Sir! > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Eight. >> Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. DD will shave off his beard, with devastating results. 2. Snape's graying underpants will make a brief reappearance. 3. Ron will feel his inner seer rise from within. 4. The mysterious Florence-from-behind-the-greenhouses will prove to be "at the heart of it all." 5. Luna's beliefs will all, by the end of the book, have been proven correct. Hermione will be gracious in the circumstances. From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Mon May 9 08:17:55 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 08:17:55 -0000 Subject: TigerPatronus's call for predictions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128668 Deborah settles confortably under the hitherto unknown Predicting Hat: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Peter Pettigrew, under the strain of his indebtedness to both HP and LV. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Not who, what? A rather rough pub, perhaps in Knockturn Alley, in which meetings can take place. (Half blood, the other half wine!) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) No big secret; just love. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Tonks, if a woman wouldn't upset the gender balance in the staffroom, or perhaps Karkaroff. I'd love the real Madeye Moody to do it, but I don't see it somehow! 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Padme! (He's already blown it with Parvati ...) 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I fear a DE mole, but if not, then Kingsley Shacklebolt, or perhaps Karkaroff if foreigners are allowed. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, for career reasons. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, for career reasons - seems to be useful to know where one's herbs will end up. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He passed them all, with varying success. Predictions: 1. The giants will be divided, some declaring for LV and some following Hagrid and Mme Maxim to the side of the good. 2. Hermione will give up SPEW on the advice of Dobby and other house-elves. 3. Lupin will be more prominent and play a more personal role as Harry's mentor. 4. The nature of the blood tie (when a wizard saves the life of another) will be revealed more clearly, especially with regard to Peter Pettigrew, who has saved both LV and Harry. 5. Professor Sinistra and Firenze form a (not entirely platonic) partnership - after all, they have got a lot in common. Very pleasant exercise, TigerPatronus - thank you for a lot of fun! From kjones at telus.net Mon May 9 05:06:30 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 08 May 2005 22:06:30 -0700 Subject: HBP Predictions Message-ID: <427EEFD6.7020107@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 128669 Who will be the most major character to die? 1. I predict this will be Harry's shortest stay at #4 Privet because Voldemort will attack the family. I believe that the Dursleys will be killed, removing Harry's protection. Who is the half-blood prince? 2. The half-blood prince will be a new character. If it is the old lion guy, he will be the new Potions instructor. What is Lilly's big secret? 3. Lily was a Seer and knew what was going to happen. She took some steps to potect Harry and leave him alive to defeat Voldemort. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 4 I predict that Snape will be the new DADA teacher. It is becoming imperative that the students be taught fighting skills. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 5. I predict that Harry will not have a romantic relationship in book 6 because his feelings are becoming darker and more hate-centred. I predict that Luna will have the most effect on him. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 6. Amelia Bones. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 7. DD's Pensieve Will Harry take advanced potions? 8. Yes with a new potions teacher Will Neville take advanced potions? 9. Yes, see above How many OWLS did Harry get? 10. 6 1. Petunia will do something during the attack which will allow Harry to escape. 2. Harry will discover something that will allow him to trust Snape. Possibly something to do with the pensieve. 3. Dumbledor will not be able to teach Harry occlumency for one reason or another. 4. Harry will time-travel, possibly to change the circumstances that led to Sirius' death. Sirius will be back. 5. Ron and Hermione will form a romantic attachment in book 6. 6. The Dementors and giants will fight for Voldemort. The elves and goblins will fight against him. 7. The Order will also need to recruit more people. KJ From queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com Mon May 9 12:15:18 2005 From: queen_amidalachic at yahoo.com (Maria) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 12:15:18 -0000 Subject: HBP Predictions In-Reply-To: <427EEFD6.7020107@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128670 Who will be the most major character to die? I think Tonks will die impersonating Harry. 0.o And I think Molly and Wormtail will also snuff it as well. Who is the half-blood prince? I reckon it's a new character ... or either Hagrid, Lupin, Grindelwald or Gryffindor. What is Lilly's big secret? I think Lily was an Unspeakable, and she studied the Love Room in the DoM. Who will be the new DADA teacher? that Lion dude. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? It's a hard one. I'm guessing either Ginny or Luna. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones OR the HBP. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensieve, and I think Harry is exploring his own worst memory. 0.0 Will Harry take advanced potions? Yes, although it would be a good plot twist if he doesn't. Will Neville take advanced potions? I reckon he will, just to give Snape hell, muahahaha! How many OWLS did Harry get? 7 1. I think Harry will calm down after Sirius' death to the point where he waits for trouble to come to him, instead of going toward the trouble. So he'll be more hesitant to do anything, in case he might kill someone. And I think if he does do something he'll do it on his own -- yet I think Dumbledore will be involved. 2. I had noticed on the English Children's HBP cover that Harry's facial expression makes him seem half in awe, half excites/happy for some reason. And I think something very unexpectant had happened while they were battling something. 3. Harry will live early from the Dursleys for a surprise 16th birthday party. :D 4. I think Harry will visit his parents' graves. DOODLINGTEA: HP Art by TeaWithVoldy http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=doodlingtea From feenyjam at msu.edu Mon May 9 15:31:32 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 15:31:32 -0000 Subject: Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection, and Fawkes the Phoenix In-Reply-To: <427C9098.1090009@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128671 digger says: > JKR has stated that Harry will gain a new pet before the series ends, > and that pet must surely be Fawkes. Greenfirespike says: Where did JKR say this? I did a quick search over at the hp-lexicon and couldn't find it. Alternatively, I suggest that the new pet could be Buckbeak. I say this more because I can't handle the idea of DD leaving us in any way other than Nicholas and Perenelle Flamel (i.e. on his own terms). From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Mon May 9 16:05:17 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 16:05:17 -0000 Subject: New Pet for Harry/ was Re: Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com digger says: > JKR has stated that Harry will gain a new pet before the series > ends, and that pet must surely be Fawkes. Greenfirespike says: > Where did JKR say this? I did a quick search over at the > hp-lexicon and couldn't find it. > Alternatively, I suggest that the new pet could be Buckbeak. I >say this more because I can't handle the idea of DD leaving us in >any way other than Nicholas and Perenelle Flamel (i.e. on his own >terms). "K": COMIC RELIEF, 12 March 2001 Q: Could Harry have a pet dragon? JKR: You can't domesticate a dragon, whatever Hagrid thinks. That's simply impossible. So, no, he's got more sense. He might get a different pet at some point, but I'm saying no more at this moment. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon May 9 17:23:56 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:23:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Pet for Harry/ was Re: Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <427F9CAC.4000405@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128673 koinonia02 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > > digger says: > > >>JKR has stated that Harry will gain a new pet before the series >>ends, and that pet must surely be Fawkes. > > > > Greenfirespike says: > > >>Where did JKR say this? I did a quick search over at the >>hp-lexicon and couldn't find it. > > > "K": > > COMIC RELIEF, 12 March 2001 > > Q: Could Harry have a pet dragon? > > JKR: You can't domesticate a dragon, whatever Hagrid thinks. That's > simply impossible. So, no, he's got more sense. He might get a > different pet at some point, but I'm saying no more at this moment. > > Thanks koinonia, I could not have found that quote all by myself! I had remembered the wording as "a new pet", not "a different pet" I was pretty sure that Hedwig would survive, but now I'm not so sure ;-( Maybe Hedwig takes an AK for Harry just like Fawles did for Dumbledore. I will surely shed tears at that point if it happens. digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 06/05/2005 From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon May 9 17:27:14 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 17:27:14 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128674 I've noticed in the responses to Tigerpatronus' HBP prediction challenge that most people (including me) have chosen Felix Felicis for the new DADA teacher. However, over on Sugarquill, I've been reminded that the chapter entitled "Felix Felicis" is numbered Chapter Fourteen. Now, one would expect that, if Felix Felicis was a person, he would be introduced in the chapter named for him. That's the way in worked with "Luna Lovegood" in OOTP, and although it isn't definite, it would seem very odd if that weren't the case. Chapter Fourteen is awfully late to be introducing the new DADA teacher. Even if we allow for a lot happening in the summer, the Hogwarts' year should be well underway by then. Therefore I'm going to have to revise my thinking (although not my prediction for the contest, since fair is fair). It seems more likely that Felicis would be the new Minister of Magic. Chapter Fourteen would not be very late to introduce the new minister -- in fact part of the earlier chapters may detail what happens to Fudge and those around him. Felix Felicis is related to the Latin for "lucky, fortunate, happy," so maybe the new minister is a dunderhead whose career has been based entirely on luck. This is a common kind of character in political satire (not to mention Gilbert and Sullivan), and such a person might make an (i.e. non- threatening) compromise candidate in the wake of a ministerial scandal. Also, JKR has a very negative view of government. She might find having a simpleton chosen for Minister at the moment of crisis to be amusing, and perhaps even true to life (speculating on her views here, not stating my own). What would this mean for our heroes? Well, such characters are generally portrayed as bumbling but benign, so he would be an improvement over Fudge in the way he personally interacted with Harry, et. al. However, he would be likely, like Fudge, to listen to bad advice, since he would be unable to comprehend the crisis facing the Wizarding World, much less act on it. Thus the Ministry would be paralyzed just as Voldemort makes his power grab. The Order, then, would have to act as an unofficial war ministry as far as the struggle against Voldy goes. And it would have to do so just as two of its key members, Harry and Snape, are arguably more interested in fighting each other than Voldemort. Just some theorizing. Lupinlore From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 9 17:41:11 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 17:41:11 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128675 Lupinlore wrote: > I've noticed in the responses to Tigerpatronus' HBP prediction > challenge that most people (including me) have chosen Felix Felicis > for the new DADA teacher. However, over on Sugarquill, I've been > reminded that the chapter entitled "Felix Felicis" is numbered > Chapter Fourteen. > > Now, one would expect that, if Felix Felicis was a person, he would > be introduced in the chapter named for him. That's the way in > worked with "Luna Lovegood" in OOTP, and although it isn't definite, > it would seem very odd if that weren't the case. Chapter Fourteen > is awfully late to be introducing the new DADA teacher. Even if we > allow for a lot happening in the summer, the Hogwarts' year should > be well underway by then. Potioncat: GoF has Chapter 13: Mad-Eye Moody. He's the new DADA teacher, although he is mentioned earlier in the book, and he makes his grand entrance in 12, it's 13 that's named for him. I've no idea if FF is the DADA teacher, but following this example, chapter 14 wouldn't be too late for it to be. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon May 9 18:12:27 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:12:27 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > I've noticed in the responses to Tigerpatronus' HBP prediction > challenge that most people (including me) have chosen Felix Felicis > for the new DADA teacher. However, over on Sugarquill, I've been > reminded that the chapter entitled "Felix Felicis" is numbered > Chapter Fourteen. > > Now, one would expect that, if Felix Felicis was a person, he would > be introduced in the chapter named for him. That's the way in > worked with "Luna Lovegood" in OOTP, and although it isn't definite, > it would seem very odd if that weren't the case. Chapter Fourteen > is awfully late to be introducing the new DADA teacher. Even if we > allow for a lot happening in the summer, the Hogwarts' year should > be well underway by then. > > Lupinlore Hickengruendler: Mad-Eye Moody, Dolores Umbridge and Gilderoy Lockhart (therefore all DADA teachers who had chapters named after them) all were introduced in a chapter before the one named after them. Professor Umbridge is the 12th chapter of OotP and Mad-Eye Moody the 13th of GoF. Therefore it's not totally impossible that this time chapter 14 is named after the DADA teacher. Especially considering, that JKR said this summer would be the shortest stay at the Dursleys, and therefore there is theoretically more time between Harry leaving the Dursleys and him arriving in Hogwarts. (Of course we don't know how much of this time is important for the plot and how much will be left out). From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 9 18:23:47 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 11:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050509182347.55737.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128677 Lupinlore: Therefore I'm going to have to revise my thinking (although not my prediction for the contest, since fair is fair). **************** Is there a rule that one cannot revise their prediction? I was just now working on it--might be good to know. I think you are alright with that guess, however, because the other teachers were introduced fairly late as well. Although, didn't she say this book would not be so terribly long? Lupinlore again: Also, JKR has a very negative view of government. She might find having a simpleton chosen for Minister at the moment of crisis to be amusing, and perhaps even true to life (speculating on her views here, not stating my own). ******************* How do you know this? I don't recall hearing her speak of a general negativity toward government. Theotokos Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lebiles at charter.net Mon May 9 18:24:07 2005 From: lebiles at charter.net (leb2323) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:24:07 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128678 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Unfortunately dear Minerva bless her heart. She won't have quite completely recovered from all those stunners by the next attack. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? The Old Lion Guy whose prince half of the blood will come from Godric himself > 3. What is Lily's big secret? Don't think there is one that will be revealed in this book. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? If it isn't Viktor Krum then I think that Lupin will return to the post. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Parvati > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman -- as I said in a predictions post over a year ago I personally believe the ESE!Ludo conspiracies and think this would make a deliciously wicked plot twist. Think about the pensieve scenes of his trial. The public is just blindly gullible enough to support the popular ex-sports hero. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes -- with many opportunities for Draco to question his being present after having caught Harry taking those "remedial potions classes" last school year. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I'd say at least 7 > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Kreacher's head is on the wall at Grimmauld Place courtesy of Dumbledore 2. Umbridge and/or the ministry will get credit (at least initially for the unusually high scores on the DADA owl exams 3. Sirius will have appointed Lupin as Harry's new guardian and together the two of them will share Grimmauld Place -- this is also the reason he gets to leave the Dursley's early in the book 4. The DEs will be using the Riddle House as their headquarters 5. Percy will remain estranged from the Weasleys and will probably be the ministry employee to lead the raid on the twin's shop because of all the dangerous items they offer for sale From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon May 9 18:55:32 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 18:55:32 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: <20050509182347.55737.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > Lupinlore again: > > Also, JKR has a very negative view of government. She might find > having a simpleton chosen for Minister at the moment of crisis to be amusing, and perhaps even true to life (speculating on her views > here, not stating my own). > ******************* > > How do you know this? I don't recall hearing her speak of a general negativity toward government. GEO: However her portrayal of the Ministry in general is usually quite negative and we see throughout the series the rampant corruption(Arthur Weasley trading favors for Quidditch Tickets, the trading of gold for political favors as seen with Lucius Malfoy and Fudge), disregard for the personal rights of the citizens(Umbridge and the dementors and her attempts to use the Cruciatus curse on Harry, Bagman using his position to try and get out of debt and Crouch sending Sirius Black to Azkaban without a trial not to mention obliviating the mind of Bertha Jorkins) and being generally ineffective and unresponsive(Harry being cited for Dobby's hover charm and also Fudge's refusal to believe in the return of Voldemort) and going to the extremes in order to preserve order(the use of unforgivables on Death Eaters). From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon May 9 19:00:10 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:00:10 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > > GoF has Chapter 13: Mad-Eye Moody. He's the new DADA teacher, > although he is mentioned earlier in the book, and he makes his grand > entrance in 12, it's 13 that's named for him. > > I've no idea if FF is the DADA teacher, but following this example, > chapter 14 wouldn't be too late for it to be. GEO: Yes, but GoF has 37 chapters and as a rule usually the chapter titles with the new teacher in it is around 1/3 of the way into the story with PS/SS being the one that defies the formula however HBP only has 32 chapters and FF is chapter 14 so unless the rule is broken here or FF is not a DADA teacher. From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 9 19:11:17 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:11:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry Potter: The Road Map to Liberating Alchemy Part 1 Message-ID: <20050509191117.55796.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128681 How has Harry Potter been able to capture the hearts of hundreds of millions of children and adults around the world? I believe it is due to the dual nature of the human being. I believe Harry Potter primarily addresses the remnant of the divine, immortal and perfect human being asleep in the heart of the ordinary mortal, flawed person. Humanity as a whole is the only begotten son of God, and originally lived in the Divine Universe. Through a catastrophe millions of years ago, known as the Fall, part of humanity descended into this time-spatial universe. Today humanity has forgotten its divine origins, but in the collective unconscious live archetypes which remind us of the possibility of the return journey. Since the Fall there has been a brotherhood to help those who wish to make this journey. The members of this Brotherhood I call the Masters of Compassion. They have been occupied for millions of years in teaching humanity about the way back to the Original Kingdom in accordance with the Divine Plan. One of their most powerful methods is to hand down symbolic stories which resonate powerfully in the subconscious due to the archetypes. These stories are adapted to time and culture, but are essentially the same: a special person with a great potential for heroic, liberating deeds is hidden inside the ordinary person. This hero is a prince, a king, or a magician who can save the world and lead the people to a great destiny. The stories given to humanity by the Masters of Compassion are known today as The Bible, the Holy Books of all ages, the Greek legends, fairy tales, and the great epics. We are privileged today to see a brand new heros journey being etched into the unconscious of many millions. Harry Potter is the newest version of the ancient and timeless message from the Masters of Compassion who are calling us to awaken the inner hero capable of leading us back to the ineffable heights of eternal life in the Kingdom of the Potter. Since about the 14th century the Path of Liberation has been called alchemy. Early In the 17th century the Masters of Compassion gave to humanity a set of scriptures known as the Rosicrucian Manifestos. One of these was The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross, published in 1616. This very veiled and symbolic tale is a detailed and complete road map to the Path of Liberation from this universe of death and suffering and the ceaseless battle between good and evil. This path leads into the Universe of Eternal Life, the perfect, selfless joy of union with God, and the absolute unending Good of the Divine Plan. The Alchemical Wedding describes the processes of transmutation and transfiguration in which the mortal human, symbolised traditionally by lead, is transfigured into the Son of God, symbolised by gold. This process requires the complete self-sacrifice of the old personality with all its aspects and its past of good and evil actions. The wedding refers to the resurrection of the inner Christ, in whom the old personality, the new soul, and the original divine spirit are melded into one, symbolised by the reborn King and Queen and Christian Rosycross. Anyone who has read The Alchemical Wedding carefully will notice a remarkable number of similarities between this and Harry Potter. Harry goes to an ancient castle for seven years; Christian Rosycross goes to a castle for seven days. Both heroes are given a letter of invitation during a violent storm. Both travel across a lake with mermaids in it. Harry is faced with being sorted into one of four houses; Christian faces four paths to choose from. Both stories mention Paracelsus. In both stories the meals are served up by invisible servants in a hall lighted by levitating candles. There are many more similarities too many to be co-incidence. The actual work of the alchemical processes in The Alchemical Wedding is carried out in the Tower of Olympus. This has seven levels symbolising the liberation of the entire human being with all his vehicles in the seven planes of life. They are: 1. the physical plane 2. the etheric plane 3. the astral plane 4. the mental plane 5. the plane of the mental ego 6. the plane of the emotional ego 7. the plane of the consciousness ego. If we study Harry Potter closely we can clearly see that liberation in the first five planes is described in parts 1-5 in the above order. In part 1, the Philosophers Stone is hidden in such a way, that only one who wanted to find the stone find it but not use it would be able to get it out of its hiding place. Harry and Quirrell face the mirror together. They see the Stone in the mirror, and both know that the Stone can bring an unending healthy life of luxury. Harry is able to take the stone because he doesnt want to use it. He has symbolically overcome the ties to the physical world. Part 2 features elves, gnomes, pixies etc. which are etheric creatures. Harry liberates Dobby the elf by an act of great intelligence, courage and compassion. Part 2 deals with liberation on the etheric plane, just as The Alchemical Wedding does on the second level of the Tower of Olympus. In part 3 Harry meets dementors, who are obviously astral as they suck out happy emotions. The only way to drive them off is to create a Patronus Charm. Near the end of the book Harry sees a hundred dementors heading for him and his friends, ready to suck out their souls. He invokes his Patronus and a beautiful silvery stag drives them all away, saving Harry and his friends. To those familiar with liberating symbols this speaks the clearest language possible: astral liberation is achieved by focusing on the longing for God in the heart. Even if the whole astral world attacks you, the stag in your heart will set you free. In Part 4 Voldemort challenges Harry to a duel. He utters the killing curse and Harry casts the disarming spell. The two magic forces meet half-way and it becomes a battle of will-power. Harrys mental concentration on defeating Voldemort is so intense that he is able to push Voldemorts curse back into his wand. This is Harrys victory on the mental plane. In Part 5 Voldemort begins to take possession of Harrys mental ego but at the climax Harry feels a powerful love for Sirius, who has died for his sake. This drives Voldemorts possession out of Harrys mind. Voldemort cannot bear being inside a person with so much love. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 9 19:11:32 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:11:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry Potter: The Road Map to Liberating Alchemy Part 4 Message-ID: <20050509191132.45647.qmail@web25104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128682 According to Liberating Alchemy the body is a ruined temple which has to be restored to divine glory. A number of organs play a vital role in this. The autonomic nervous system is very much involved, as well as the endocrine glands. In addition there are seven etheric and astral organs which are connected intimately with the nervous system and the glands. These are the chakras. They rotate very rapidly in a clockwise manner and their function is to suck in energy. The teachings of transfiguration tell us that the new soul-force gradually descends along the right string of the sympathetic nerve. As it does so it begins to close off the autonomic nervous system to the influences of the fallen universe. At the same time the chakras slow down their rotation, decreasing the energy intake from this universe. At a certain moment they stop turning altogether. When the new soul-force reaches the end of the sympathetic string it enters the sacral plexus and fights the serpent of the kundalini, symbolised by Harry fighting the basilisk. It then ascends along the left string and the chakras start turning in an anticlockwise direction. They are now absorbing energy from the divine universe, for ever setting the alchemist free from death, decline and disease. These chakras and glands are personified by the Weasleys. In Part 2 we learn that Ginny is taken down underneath the castle and held captive by Tom Riddle, a memory of Voldemort. Riddle symbolises the subconscious mind. Harry comes down to rescue Ginny. After defeating the basilisk he kills Tom Riddle and Ginny wakes up. Ginny has red hair and six siblings. Ginny is the root chakra, connected to the sacral plexus. This chakra is bright red and has six companions. Ronald Bilius symbolises the spleen chakra. He plays a double role, because we have already met him as the earthly personality, whose headquarters are in the spleen-liver system. This all ties in neatly with Ron as former owner of Scabbers, who personifies the blood-ego situated in the spleen-liver system. The twins Fred and George are obviously the adrenal glands, situated on top of the kidneys. They like to joke about toilet seats, a reference to their position in the body. Their chakra is the navel chakra, consisting of ten petals, alternately red and green. Percy is the heart chakra. The name Percy is short for Percival, known in the Grail legends as Parsifal. This knight in quest of the Holy Grail sees a golden city in the distance. When he approaches it, it disappears. Percy, too, is chasing after a golden city, the Ministry of Magic. He too will find his ambitions going up in smoke. But eventually Percy will turn back to Harry and assist him at the end. Charlie and Bill symbolises the throat and the crown chakras respectively. Arthur and Molly symbolise the pituitary gland and the brow chakra. This gland has two lobes, one of which rules the heart and the other the head. The chakra is divided into two colours: red and indigo. Arthur is red headed, the obvious reference to the red half of the chakra. Another person to watch very carefully is Neville Longbottom. He personifies the medulla oblongata, which regulates the heart-beat and breathing. It is in fact the gate-keeper to the alchemists body and is responsible for admitting the divine forces which seek to enter the body and transfigure it from a degenerated tent to a perfect, divine temple in which the Holy Spirit can dwell. God knocks on the gate of the medulla three times; the first time he turns the person into a seeker, the second time he causes the birth of the new soul and the third time he comes as the Holy Spirit. When the gate keeper opens the door, the Holy Spirit enters like a bolt of lightning, shooting down to the sacral plexus along the right string of the sympathetic nerve, then up along the left string. The Spirit then enters the pineal gland, where the Alchemical Wedding of Spirit, Soul and Personality takes place. >From this we can be sure that Neville will have an absolutely vital role in the climax of the book. Without him the alchemical wedding cannot take place. The physical body, seen as a whole, is personified by Narcissa Malfoy. Her name refers to the Greek legend of Narcissus, the young man who fell in love with his own body. Narcissas husband is Lucius, the physical brain with its consciousness. This consciousness has a feeling of superiority, a delusion of being god-like. The brain is linked to the microcosmic self through numerous magnetic lines of force, which is why Lucius is a Death Eater. Their son is Draco, who looks very much like his father. His name gives the most telling clue to what he personifies: the spinal cord with its mortal soul-force known as the serpent-fire. His animosity towards Harry is easily explained. Harry is the new serpent-fire destined to replace the old one. At the end Draco will have to make way for Harry. The spinal cord is surrounded on each side by a string of the sympathetic nervous system. These are personified by Dracos two cronies, Crabbe & Goyle. Before the end of the story they will go over to Harrys side, as the new serpent-fire uses the two sympathetic strings to achieve the new consciousness. The process of transfiguration is summed up by the Rosicrucians as 7 self-initiations. These are named after the closest seven planets to the earth, and are named after Roman Gods. The first five are described accurately in Harry Potter: Mercury (the new mind): Harrys friendship with Hermione (female form of Hermes); Venus (Divine Love): the Room of Love (The sepulchre of Venus in The Alchemical wedding); Mars (the new will): Harrys victory over Voldemort in the duel; Jupiter (leadership): Harrys leadership in Dumbledores Army; Saturn (death): the Gate of Saturn, the arch with the veil. In view of the close parallel between Harry Potter and the Teachings of Liberation it should be easy to predict the main things that happen in the next two books. The next two levels in the Tower of Olympus are 6. The plane of the emotional ego 7. The plane of the consciousness ego. The emotional ego is situated in the inner sanctuary of the heart, near the Room of Love, symbolised in The Alchemical Wedding by the sepulchre of Venus. Harry will no doubt enter this room and, like CRC, will be punished by becoming a gatekeeper (and yet coming home). This makes him a Master of Compassion. Harrys heart will be liberated and filled with Love forever. On the plane of the consciousness ego, Harry will pass through the Gate of Saturn not to die the ordinary death of us, shackled to the wheel of reincarnation, but the death of total self-sacrifice, resulting in the resurrection of the Son of God in an imperishable and indestructible body of glorious majesty. To understand how Harry will defeat Voldemort and liberate himself from his finite consciousness we have to understand the Divine Law of absolute non-violence. Harry will not kill Voldemort. The divine soul cannot fight. It always withdraws from conflict and radiates love to take its place. Evil always destroys itself in the presence of love, and that is what Voldemort will do. And Harry will liberate his consciousness ego, thus entering the universal, omniscient, multidimensional consciousness. He will come Home, but his compassion for humanity will make him work for its redemption until the last fallen soul has returned to the Fathers arms. The story of Harry Potter is so powerful that it has the potential radically to change the future of humanity. There is a great likelihood that a new religion will form as a result of the power that emanates from the work. The founder of the Anthroposophical movement, Rudolf Steiner, said that from the beginning of this millennium all religions will become reconciled in the mystery of Rosicrucianism. Harry Potter is the new Christian Rosycross. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 9 19:11:22 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:11:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry Potter: The Road Map to Liberating Alchemy Part 2 Message-ID: <20050509191122.4246.qmail@web25103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128683 Harry Potter and The Alchemical Wedding are both allegories of the method of Divine Liberation. However there many other liberating symbols and archetypes in Harry Potter besides the above parallels. Harry is born in Godrics Hollow. A hollow is a small valley, and in the name Godric we immediately see the word, God. This is Gods valley. This symbol certainly is universal. For example chapter 6 of Tao Teh Ching of Lao Tzu speaks of the spirit of the valley, who is immortal. This valley is the human heart, the place where the inner God lives. The lily is one of the symbols of the Rosicrucians, the rose and lotus being others. Lily Potter symbolises the immortal, pure and divine remnant of the original Child of God in the heart. James is an animagus who can change himself into a stag, which symbolises the thirst of the Child of God for the Water of Life flowing from the throne of God. That is the pure spiritual food which nourishes the new soul. If we live a pure, spiritual life and have a longing for liberation, a new soul will be born in the heart. Lily and James marry and have a son: Harry. This is the messiah in the life of the alchemist, the long promised Son of Eternal Fullness whose coming has been prophesied. He is the archetypal hero, the liberator who will lead the fallen human being back to the promised land after a journey through the desert for 40 years. In the New Testament he is Jesus, the saviour of the world. This new soul will grow and increase in beauty and strength, gradually replacing the mortal soul. In this context Ron is John the Baptist, the old earthly personality, who will sacrifice himself for the new soul, as foreshadowed in the chess game in part 1. Hermione personifies the growing influence of the radiations of the spirit, which will form the new Mercury Consciousness. In the microcosm there is a conscious force which is the result of thousands of incarnations. This microcosmic or auric self contains all the past experiences of the personality and is virtually immortal as it remains in the microcosm between incarnations. It is neither good nor evil but is the impersonal bearer of all the persons karma, his good and bad characteristics, and everything that is part of the treasure of past experience. This higher self is personified by Voldemort. When the new soul is born a fire of unearthly beauty and power is kindled in the heart. This is a fire from another universe and its light and warmth are of a higher vibration than anything found in this universe. Compared to the new soul, the microcosmic self is composed of darkness, and so the higher self tries to kill the new soul, just as Herod tried to kill the baby Jesus. This turns out to be impossible, and just as light drives darkness away, so the new soul-fire drives the auric self to the boundary of the microcosm. This is symbolised by Voldemort being driven out of his body when he tries to kill Harry. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 9 19:11:12 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:11:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: The religious content of Harry Potter Message-ID: <20050509191112.3393.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128684 Ive been following the discussion about the religious content of Harry Potter with great interest. First of all I want to answer a poster who asked about the quote from Rowling which Ive had as part of my signature for all this year. The exact quote is: Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.'' It can be found on http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm. Ive put this in my signature because in my opinion it is the most significant thing shes ever said about Harry Potter. What shes saying is that the plot CAN BE GUESSED! There IS a pattern, and if you know that pattern, you can work out the message and the climax. And its so obvious, that even a ten year old can work it out. And it is connected to the belief in God! It just so happens that Im 60 and Im absolutely sure I have discovered the pattern the books are based on. It is irrelevant to this discussion whether the pattern itself is factual or a patchwork of lies. Im not asking the members of this group to discuss the pattern. As a loyal, contributing member of HPfGU Im doing my duty in pointing out the pattern that Jo is basing Harry Potter on. Unfortunately so far very few members have taken the trouble to examine the pattern to see whether it resembles Harry Potter. Thats because (a) theyre not interested in it because they find spiritual stuff boring; (b) they dont agree with the pattern, therefore they cant conceive that Jo could possibly have used it to base Harry Potter on; (c) Im inviting you to supply other reasons. I have compiled a (comparatively) short summary of the pattern, with the relevant symbols in Harry Potter. I did mention once that I was going to do this, so here it is. This is actually a summary of my presentation to Accio. Of course by that time well all have read Part 6, and people will expect me to comment on that. Im splitting it up into four parts so people wont receive excessively long emails. In addition heres another quote which speaks volumes: Rowling, [] said she couldn't answer the questions about the book's religious content until the conclusion of book seven. http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-chictimes-tucker.html Now, friends, why would she say that if there were no religious content in the books? How can there still be people in this group who say they dont believe there is a religious content? I must compliment Tonks on a wonderful statement: If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, then may be it IS a duck. OK folks, you may or may not like ducks, but what Im asking you to do is judge to see if maybe, just maybe, it COULD BE a duck. Just a short response to something Geoff Bannister said ages ago to my statement that The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross was a Christian story because of the first name of the main character. Geoff said that first names didnt necessarily mean anything about the character of the person. Well, if we use that as a measuring stick, we would have to conclude that the main character in Pilgrims Progress by John Bunyon was named Christian by coincidence. That, of course, is totally unreasonable. We all know that Pilgrims Progress is an allegory of the journey of a Christian, and the name is 100% relevant and used deliberately. It is obviously the same with The Alchemical Wedding. The hero is called Christian because that name was chosen deliberately to illustrate the point that The Alchemical Wedding is a Christian story. Please note that everything I say is my opinion, but I thought it rather boring to start every sentence like that. I do hope that there will be lots of members of the group who can keeps their minds open and make an honest comparison. The summary is really very brief and very few reasons are given for why the symbols match. These can be found in my previous posts, and via my website which is at the bottom of this message. Warm regards to all, Hans "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 9 19:11:30 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:11:30 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128685 SSSusan here, finally giving in to the temptation and playing along.... 1. Who will be the most major character to die? SSS: Sorry, it's a boring way to start out, but I'm going with Dumbledore. Also, either Arthur or Molly may well be a goner. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? SSS: Remus Lupin. (Though I'm fond of the idea put forth here by a couple of others that it's Viktor Krum.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) SSS: I don't know what it is, but *whatever* it is, I'm betting that it will prove to be the reason Voldy was willing to spare Lily at GH. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? SSS: Felix Felicis. From the beginning I've latched onto the idea that JKR, in her usual playful way with words, is hinting at both "lucky" *and* "Felix the Cat." So I think the new DADA teacher is the leonine guy, and his name is Felix Felicis. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? SSS: I think Harry might go out with Parvati this year (or Susan Bones or Hannah Abbott but definitely *not* Luna); however, it will be "romance light." Then, by the end of the year/book, we'll see that Harry & Ginny both want & will be ready for a mature relationship. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? SSS: I think it will be Amelia Bones, though I would find Ludo Bagman a far more interesting choice. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? SSS: DD's pensieve, in which DD & Harry are looking at [someone's! possibly Harry's own latent??] memories of the attack at GH, which would explain all the AK-green light emanating from it. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? SSS: Yes, having barely squeaked out an "O" on his Potions OWL. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? SSS: No. I think he'll begin focusing more on Herbology and DADA. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? SSS: Six -- DADA (O), Charms (E), Transfiguration (A), Potions (O), CoMC (O), Herbology (A). Predictions (0-10 points each): SSS: 1. After a period of extreme anger & animosity towards Snape (which we may or may not get to see on page), Harry will come to the decision that he is going to set aside the ugliness, whether Snape follows suit or not, and will try to at least be civil and to cooperate with/learn from/work alongside Snape. 2. We will find out what happened in the missing 24 hours, and it will involve DD, Snape, Hagrid & a potion [TBAY to follow soon, I hope]. 3. The reason Harry's stay at Privet Drive will be his shortest yet is that he will be going off to spend time with DD, learning to use a pensieve, finally getting some answers, perhaps trying again to learn Occlumency. 4. At the end of Book 6, very few of us fans will call Draco "two- dimensional" any more. He will have taken some major steps towards the Dark Side by attempting to somehow free his father from Azkaban and by using his position at Hogwarts to assist the DEs in trying to capture someone Harry cares about. 5. Fudge may be kicked out of his position as Minister of Magic, but it won't be the last we see of him. He will reveal himself (at least to some) as the ESE! person that he truly is. 6. The so-called "good Slytherin" will be revealed, and it will be Theodore Nott. 7. Fred & George will *so* be doing more than developing joke products. They'll be developing products which will directly assist the White Hats in VW II. Siriusly Snapey Susan From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 9 19:11:27 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 20:11:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Harry Potter: The Road Map to Liberating Alchemy Part 3 Message-ID: <20050509191127.55808.qmail@web25109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128686 Just as the star shone in the east at the birth of Jesus, and the birth of Horus was announced by Sirius in the Egyptian mysteries, so Harrys birth is announced by another Sirius. Harrys parents have a friend called Sirius, who is Harrys godfather. He personifies an eternal force that was in the microcosm before the Fall, and is now returning in order to be the pattern, the example, and the guide for the new soul. This force is the divine plan that is linked to every microcosm individually. It is the mental conception of the heavenly man. This mental plan is eternal, indestructible, and made by God himself to lead the human being to a development so utterly glorious, so full of refulgent power, and so rapturously ecstatic that no comparison can be made to anything on earth. This force enters the microcosm and radiates in the alchemists aura like a bright morning star. However there is a traitor inside the alchemist: the ego. This is the blood- or desire-ego situated in the spleen-liver system. Its function is to ensure the physical survival of the personality. It is composed of the essence of the microsmic self and is therefore its close servant. This is symbolised by Peter Pettigrew. The ego examines everything to see whether it will be of harm or benefit to the personality. When the new soul is born and the bright morning star begins to send its comforting rays, the ego regards this as its property. It takes the supernal teachings of liberation and weaves a straight-jacket around them. The mental conception of the heavenly man is taken prisoner and put in chains. This is symbolised by Sirius being sent to Azkaban. Pettigrew transforms into a rat named Scabbers, who ends up as a pet to Ron, the earthly personality. The imprisonment of the divine mental conception can last many years, but if the alchemist perseveres in his quest for liberation he will eventually realise that the ego is betraying him and hindering his progress. The mental image can come down into the body and literally drive the ego out of its little nest in the spleen-liver system, from where it takes a up place in the aura, close to the auric self. This is symbolised by Sirius escaping from prison and coming after Scabbers, who is snuggled up against Rons body. Scabbers escapes and returns to Voldemort. The mental conception of the heavenly man grows in beauty and power as the candidate devotes his life to the new soul-fire burning in his heart. When the candidate has reached a certain stage, the divine mental conception begins to disappear from the candidates presence. The explanation of this goes back to the causes of the Fall. The original human being, equipped with his divine faculties, had the task of working in Gods creation to bring it to fruition. He was sent into the Seventh Cosmic Plane as a sorcerers apprentice to learn and work in this vast alchemical laboratory which the Bible calls Paradise. However he was told to work there but not eat of its fruit. However humanity did eat this, and so the Fall ensued. Man was meant to work in this alchemical laboratory, but not live there. His home was the Sixth Cosmic Plane. Alchemy is the reversal of the Fall. When the divine mental image has reached a certain stage of maturity, it goes back to the Sixth Cosmic Plane within the microcosm. There it becomes the new microcosmic consciousness, the Divine Microcosmic Sun. This is symbolised by Sirius disappearing through the arch with the veil, known in Rosicrucian traditions as the Gate of Saturn. Harrys future is assured: he and Sirius will reunite. A very important figure in the septology is Hagrid, Keeper of the Keys at the school. He introduces Harry to the magical world and is obviously equivalent to the gate-keeper in The Alchemical Wedding. This means he is a Master of Compassion who delays his own progress on the Path to help others find it. He loves dragons, a symbol for the fallen human being, who is known in Rosicrucian teachings as a six-winged dragon. His brother Grawp symbolises humanity, whom he regards as his brother. Albus Dumbledore is obviously the equivalent of the very old man in the Tower of Olympus in The Alchemical Wedding. He provides Harry with the opportunity each year to pass the test which liberates him from the appropriate plane of the fallen world, just as the old man in The Alchemical Wedding directs the wedding in the Tower of Olympus. In both cases the old man symbolises the holy, sanctifying spirit who is in control of the whole process of liberation and the alchemical marriage of Soul, personality and Spirit. Minerva McGonagall is the equivalent to the virgin Alchymia in The Alchemical Wedding. Alchymia conducts Christian Rosycross to each floor of the Tower of Olympus and helps him attain complete transfiguration. Minerva is teacher of Transfiguration. She symbolises the alchemical, astral force which makes possible the transfiguration from a mortal, flawed person to the immortal and perfect child of God. She will play an important role in Harrys alchemical wedding in book 7. Severus Snape symbolises the same aspect of the personality as the black king in The Alchemical Wedding. That is the shadow side, the sinful past, the occult aspect of the candidate for liberation. Remus John Lupin is the grey king of The Alchemical Wedding. He symbolises the opposite of Snape, i.e. the good side, the brave and noble deeds of the past, and the honest striving for goodness, truth and justice. However he has a bad flaw: he is a werewolf. In this fallen world nothing is without faults and good people can harm others without wanting to. In The Alchemical Wedding both the black and the grey king subject themselves voluntarily to decapitation for the alchemical rebirth. We can therefore expect both Snape and Lupin to sacrifice themselves for the trio. "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From kking0731 at gmail.com Mon May 9 19:20:50 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:20:50 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128687 Tigerpatronus: Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Snow: Molly Weasley would be a good candidate - the twins would seek vengeance and Percy would finally realize what his family means to him. The statement Lupin made to Molly (The Woes of Mrs. Weasley) about taking care of her kids if anything ever happened to her would come to pass. However, the biggest character to get the axe may be Ron because it would cause the ultimate pain for Harry (and the readers). JKR's website offers a smidge of foreshadowing to this death in the Weasley family: Extra Stuff- Characters "Ron was the only one of three major characters whose surname never changed; he has been 'Weasley' from start to finish. In Britain and Ireland the weasel has a bad reputation as an unfortunate," And of course there is always Ron's middle name to be considered; Bilius, who died after seeing a grim. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Snow: I've always liked Albus Dumbledore to be the Prince of the Half- bloods. There are so many Half-bloods that he has taken in and gave protection to. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Snow: The experiment Lily was working on as an unspeakable in the Dept. of Mysteries, along with coworkers Mrs. Lovegood (the first to attempt the experiment and die) and Mrs. Longbottom (tortured for what she knew). 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snow: Felix Felicus-Double lettered initials are common as far as teachers go MM and SS, not to mention the four founders; GG, SS, HH and RR. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Snow: Ginny-if her mom and/or Ron does die, Harry would be the most likely to console her, which could spawn a relationship 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Albus Dumbledore- foreshadowing for this would be Umbridge in the chapter Career Advise stating that Harry would be an Auror when Dumbledore became MOM. McGonagall's response was good chance then. (Not verbatim) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Snow: It is a Pencieve in the Dept. of Mysteries. It appears old, cracked and on a pedestal (not Dumbledore's); if Lily had been working there, it would have been somewhere she may have placed her memories for contemplation when considering her eventual protection blanket for Harry. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Snow: Of Course! 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Snow: Yep, Cause Snape will finally get the position (in the end) he always wanted and they will need a new potions teacher. We do know that one of the kids gets a teaching job at the end. Hey! You need herbs for potions, right? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Snow: Harry did extremely well in DADA and he thought he did well in Transfiguration, Charms, Potions and Magical Creatures. I think he may have performed well in Herbology and Astronomy also. So I think that Harry will receive 7 OWLs in these subjects, which will be the classes that he will take next year. *********************** Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Harry learns about his grandparents' deaths through memories left in an ancient Pencieve that Lily used. The memory in the Pencieve: Lily and James, while dating, came home to find the Morsmordre Symbol over Lily and James houses. 2. Harry will find that James taught DADA before he and Lily were forced into hiding; James put a jinx on the position until which time he either returned or Voldemort was destroyed. 3. Draco's mommy tries to protect Draco from the Voldemort side of the war, now that daddy is imprisoned, but Draco bolts mommy's protection attempts and detours to save his father thereby connecting to a side of the war that he is not fully capable of committing to any more than Regulus Black was and we all know how that ended up. 4. Neville figures out the clue that his mother is giving him through the gum wrappers, which leads him to the room she was experimenting in at the DOM as an unspeakable. 5. Sirius and his second cousin Tonks switched places before they went to the DOM. See post # 93618 for details. Snow From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 9 19:23:21 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:23:21 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128688 lupinlore wrote: > > I've noticed in the responses to Tigerpatronus' HBP prediction > > challenge that most people (including me) have chosen Felix > > Felicis for the new DADA teacher. However, I've been reminded > > that the chapter entitled "Felix Felicis" is numbered Chapter 14. > > Chapter Fourteen is awfully late to be introducing the new DADA > > teacher. Even if we allow for a lot happening in the summer, the > > Hogwarts' year should be well underway by then. Hickengruendler: > Mad-Eye Moody, Dolores Umbridge and Gilderoy Lockhart (therefore > all DADA teachers who had chapters named after them) all were > introduced in a chapter before the one named after them. Professor > Umbridge is the 12th chapter of OotP and Mad-Eye Moody the 13th of > GoF. Therefore it's not totally impossible that this time chapter > 14 is named after the DADA teacher. Especially considering, that > JKR said this summer would be the shortest stay at the Dursleys, > and therefore there is theoretically more time between Harry > leaving the Dursleys and him arriving in Hogwarts. SSSusan: I agree with Hickengruendler. If we consider think that a *lot* will potentially be happening in the summer, I don't think Chapter 14 is too late. For instance, I'm thinking we've got: 1) Draco's Detour, whatever that is -- and I'm predicting it has to do with a planned breakout of Lucius & crew from Azkaban; 2) Harry potentially dealing with his grief over Sirius & anger at Snape, DD, himself; 3) Harry's shortest stay ever at Privet Drive, for a happier reason than previous ones -- and I'm hoping this means a gooooood loooooong time spent with DD (or potentially DD + other Order members, like Lupin & Moody), getting answers, learning to use the Pensieve (hopefully even somehow tapping his own memories of GH?), learning Occlumency from DD; 4) Some time spent with Hermione, Ron & the Weasleys. If all of this is [or things along these lines are] on tap before heading back to Hogwarts, I don't think Chapter 14 would be too far into the book for a chapter named after the DADA prof. As others have pointed out, it doesn't have to be the first time we've heard of or met the DADA instructor; it's just the time when we have an entire chapter named for him. Of course, it's ALL speculation on my part! ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From sunflowerlaw at gmail.com Mon May 9 19:44:04 2005 From: sunflowerlaw at gmail.com (Lindsay) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 12:44:04 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The religious content of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <20050509191112.3393.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20050509191112.3393.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128689 Hans: > First of all I want to answer a poster who asked about the quote from > Rowling which I've had as part of my signature for all this year. The exact > quote is: "Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, > because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than > that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely > about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to > guess what's coming in the books.'' It can be found on > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm. >There IS a pattern, and if you know that > pattern, you can work out the message and the climax. And it's so obvious, > that even a ten year old can work it out. Lindsay: I think what makes many of us shy away from strong religious theories is that they are religious, but that they are too specific to dogma. If it is so easy that a ten year-old can figure it out, how can it be pulling religious dogma that most people have never even heard of? I think the more prevailing arguement is a simple one. Rowling believes that Love Conquers All, and through that, we can predict what is going to happen. That Love is how Lily saved Harry, that Love is the power the Dark Lord knows not, that Love is how Harry will defeat Voldemort. Love is an underlying theme to many religious beliefs, like Christian ones, despite some of the more violent passages that can be found in many religious texts. Love is a prevailing theme, and that is what Rowling means - the theme to the Harry Potter books is one about the power of Love. --Lindsay From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 9 19:59:30 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 19:59:30 -0000 Subject: New Pet for Harry/ was Re: Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection... In-Reply-To: <427F9CAC.4000405@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128690 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > > "K": > > > > COMIC RELIEF, 12 March 2001 > > > > Q: Could Harry have a pet dragon? > > > > JKR: You can't domesticate a dragon, whatever Hagrid thinks. That's > > simply impossible. So, no, he's got more sense. He might get a > > different pet at some point, but I'm saying no more at this moment. > > digger: > Thanks koinonia, I could not have found that quote all by myself! > > I had remembered the wording as "a new pet", not "a different pet" > I was pretty sure that Hedwig would survive, but now I'm not so sure ;-( > Maybe Hedwig takes an AK for Harry just like Fawles did for Dumbledore. > I will surely shed tears at that point if it happens. Geoff: However, may I point out the use of the conditional tense - "might" get a different pet....... From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 9 20:27:20 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:27:20 -0000 Subject: The religious content of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <20050509191112.3393.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: Hans: > Just a short response to something Geoff Bannister said ages ago to my > statement that "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross" was a > Christian story because of the first name of the main character. Geoff said > that first names didn't necessarily mean anything about the character of the > person. Well, if we use that as a measuring stick, we would have to conclude > that the main character in "Pilgrim's Progress" by John Bunyon was named > "Christian" by coincidence. > > That, of course, is totally unreasonable. We all know that "Pilgrim's > Progress" is an allegory of the journey of a Christian, and the name is 100% > relevant and used deliberately. It is obviously the same with "The > Alchemical Wedding". The hero is called Christian because that name was > chosen deliberately to illustrate the point that "The Alchemical Wedding" is > a Christian story. Geoff: Just to set my mind at rest, I do not recall making a statement such as the one you quote above and I cannot find it in the archive of my messages. To set my mind at rest, can you quote the post number? I wonder if I have been credited with a pearl of wisdom which is not mine to claim.... From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Mon May 9 22:29:27 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 22:29:27 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128692 > > Lupinlore again: > > > > Also, JKR has a very negative view of government. She might find > > having a simpleton chosen for Minister at the moment of crisis to > be amusing, and perhaps even true to life (speculating on her views > > here, not stating my own). > > ******************* > > > > How do you know this? I don't recall hearing her speak of a > general negativity toward government. > > GEO: However her portrayal of the Ministry in general is usually > quite negative and we see throughout the series the rampant > corruption(Arthur Weasley trading favors for Quidditch Tickets, the > trading of gold for political favors as seen with Lucius Malfoy and > Fudge), disregard for the personal rights of the citizens(Umbridge > and the dementors and her attempts to use the Cruciatus curse on > Harry, Bagman using his position to try and get out of debt > and Crouch sending Sirius Black to Azkaban without a trial not to > mention obliviating the mind of Bertha Jorkins) and being generally > ineffective and unresponsive(Harry being cited for Dobby's hover > charm and also Fudge's refusal to believe in the return of > Voldemort) and going to the extremes in order to preserve order(the > use of unforgivables on Death Eaters). Barmaid now: While it does seem that JKR shows some dislike for bureaucracy, and certainly likes to mock ineptitude, I am not sure that we know how she feels about "government" in general. I have questions about a couple of your examples. a) While you may see the story of Arthur and the Quidditch tickets as corruption I do not recall there being anything negative in the presentation of this event in canon, in fact it seemed to be a good thing. b) Is there canon to support that the use of unforgivables was actually officially sanctioned?? --Barmaid From cdayr at yahoo.com Mon May 9 22:36:46 2005 From: cdayr at yahoo.com (cdayr) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 22:36:46 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128693 Hi all- here's my attempt at predicting the unpredictable! Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Griffindor What is Lily's big secret? She is the person who convinced Snape to turn spy for Dumbledore, while working as a spy herself. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character, I think possibly someone brought in from another country this time. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Odd feelings for and about Ginny, but most of the romance in this one will be between Ron and Hermione. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I guess I'm with the Amelia Bones crowd. What is that bowl shaped thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? DD's pensieve Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. And he'll be so much more relaxed. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 1. The "traveler" who gave Aragog to Hagrid 50 years ago will turn out to be a pivotal character. Aragog will reveal more about this person in the chapter "Spinner's End," and then Aragog will die. 2. The first chapter will be a scene from the time of the founders- probably a scene in which we see the rift between Salazar and the other three, especially Godric. The "Old Lion Guy" is a description of GG from that scene. 3. Regulus Black is alive. 4. After some traumatic event in the war, Ron and Hermione will finally realize all their bickering has just been painfully extended flirting, and start a tentative relationship. 5. The version of the prophesy in the pensieve (Dumbledore's memory of it) is incomplete and that is why Dumbledore insists on keeping Trelawney at Hogwarts- she is the only person who truly has a memory of the full prophesy. Ta-da. -CDR From barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com Mon May 9 23:59:18 2005 From: barbara_mbowen at yahoo.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 23:59:18 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128694 Marmelade Mom comes out of lurkerdom to enjoy this contest. Thanks, TigerPatronus! 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Griffyndor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She was an unspeakable (as was James). 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve that does not belong to either Dumbledore or Snape but to the HPB himself. In it, Harry will see both Gryffindor and Slytherin as memories. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, and tie Neville for high marks 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, see above. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. We will learn that House elves are not affected by Dementors and can protect their families from them. 2. Harry will accuse Snape of being a double agent, and of being complicit in both his father's and Sirius' deaths. There will be a * big*, ugly blowup between them and Harry will not back down. 3. Snape will reveal why Dumbledore trusts him. 4. Bill and Fleur will get married. So will Hagrid and Madame Maxime. 5. Stubby Boardman (aka a member of the Black family) will sing at the wedding. His singing will be terrible, but the French just love him. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue May 10 00:53:52 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 00:53:52 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hogsheadbarmaid" wrote: > Barmaid now: > a) While you may see the story of Arthur and the Quidditch tickets > as corruption I do not recall there being anything negative in the > presentation of this event in canon, in fact it seemed to be a good > thing. GEO: Thats frankly your intepretation, but the exchange that occured in my opinion violated certain ethical rules that govern public servants like Arthur Weasley especially since he was hired to uphold the law in relation to muggle artifacts and their enchantments and then there is the whole bit about him accepting gifts of such value. > b) Is there canon to support that the use of unforgivables was > actually officially sanctioned?? GEO: They were authorized by the Minister of Magical Law Enforcement who was the same upstanding citizen that decided to deprive Sirius Black of a trial and busted his own son out of Azkaban so I would certainly deem them officially sanctioned. From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Tue May 10 02:07:06 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 02:07:06 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128696 "greatelderone" wrote: > >Barmaid now: > > a) While you may see the story of Arthur and the Quidditch tickets as corruption I do not recall there being anything negative in the presentation of this event in canon, in fact it seemed to be a good thing. > GEO: Thats frankly your intepretation, but the exchange that occured in my opinion violated certain ethical rules that govern public servants like Arthur Weasley especially since he was hired to uphold the law in relation to muggle artifacts and their enchantments and then there is the whole bit about him accepting gifts of such value. > > b) Is there canon to support that the use of unforgivables was > > actually officially sanctioned?? > GEO: They were authorized by the Minister of Magical Law Enforcement who was the same upstanding citizen that decided to deprive Sirius Black of a trial and busted his own son out of Azkaban so I would certainly deem them officially sanctioned. The Barmaid's reply: Oh yes, of course, anything I have to say about the books is based in my interpretation -- as are you comments! I'm OK with that. In regard to my point "a" what I am trying to get at is that I do not see anything in canon that indicates that the ticket thing would be viewed as "corruption" within the value system in which Arthur operates. Ethics around the giving and receiving of gifts vary greatly from one cultural group to another. I think there is a more universal argument to be made for Arthur being on ethically thin ice over his misuse of Muggle artifact when he is charged with upholding the laws on this. However, it also seems that an argument could be made that JKR does *not* see even this as a real problem, but rather just a humorous bit of irony. In regard to my point "b" I honestly want to know where that is in canon. I am very interested in these sorts of inconsistencies, in particular as we enter a "war" I am very interested in having a clear handle on how "unforgivable" the Unforgivable Curses are generally thought to be. As to Barty Sr. and his clear lapses.... my sense (and yes, I know this is only MY sense) has always been that this is more of an indictment of him as an individual, and an exploration of how those fighting against "the bad guys" can lose sight of what it is that distinguishes them from the bad guys in the first place, rather than a broad criticism of "government" in general. --Barmaid From kmgardner14 at yahoo.com Tue May 10 01:42:06 2005 From: kmgardner14 at yahoo.com (kmgardner14) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 01:42:06 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128697 Hi guys, this is my first post to this group. I have not been reading most of the other messages (bad netiquette, I know), so please forgive me if I inadvertently steal other people's predictions. I at least _think_ I'm being original. "tigerpatronus" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > 5. Professor Sinistra and Firenze form a (not entirely platonic) > partnership - after all, they have got a lot in common. > Er. Now I know why this is an 'adult' forum. Here are the rest of my predictions (actually dashed off in a moment so this isn't a one-line post): -Winky. She's mad as hell, and she's not going to take it anymore. Ugly incident coming with a bazooka and the school Halloween dinner. -Dudley Dursley joins an American pro-wrestling circuit. Fame and fortune are his. -Hedwig and Fawkes. They have a lot in common too. -Hermione takes spew to the next level. Look for her to start wearing a red bandana around her head and breaking into the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures department for a little sabotage. From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue May 10 03:15:19 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 04:15:19 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42802747.20401@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128699 snow15145 wrote: > 2. Harry will find that James taught DADA before he and Lily were > forced into hiding; James put a jinx on the position until which time > he either returned or Voldemort was destroyed. > 'scuse my butting into your predictions, but I'd always assumed that if there really IS a jinx on the DADA position, it was put there by Snape. That way he'd regularly get the chance to apply for it himself. DD is onto him though. Anybody who wants something that much must be mentally unsuitable for the post. digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 06/05/2005 From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue May 10 03:19:58 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 04:19:58 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] New Pet for Harry/ was Re: Albus Dumbledore, Resurrection... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4280285E.3060200@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128700 Geoff Bannister wrote: > However, may I point out the use of the conditional tense - "might" > get a different pet....... > > > Yes, technically you are right. The condition is that she has not yet written that part! But she will.... digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.6 - Release Date: 06/05/2005 From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 10 03:20:10 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 03:20:10 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128701 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. Alas, poor Albus, I knew him well, Ron Bilius... 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) The Old Lion Guy--aka Godric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) LV killed her parents (and Petunia's) when she and James went into hiding. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Well, I'm guessing one of the older Weasley brothers... Let's go with Bill, since he seems more like the DADA type. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I believe he will fall for Ginny, but she won't be ready for him. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. Duh. If I were pressed to specify, I'd say GG's--or DD's, with GG's memories inside... 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yup. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? The odds seem awfully long on that one. But I'll guess yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? EIght. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. The DA will continue as a recognized club. 2. At least two Slytherins will join the DA. 3. One of the DoM Six will become romantically involved with a Slytherin. 4. Ron will be Gryffindor Quidditch captain. 5. At least one of the DoM Six will lose a parent. (Not Harry obviously. Sheesh.) From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 10 04:02:07 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:02:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050510040207.49059.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128702 Lupinlore: [snip]Also, JKR has a very negative view of government.[snip] Theotokos: How do you know this? I don't recall hearing her speak of a general negativity toward government. GEO: However her portrayal of the Ministry in general is usually quite negative and we see throughout the series the rampant corruption[snip examples of government corruption] disregard for the personal rights of the citizens[snip examples of more corruption] and being generally ineffective and unresponsive[snip] *********************** Theotokos again: Yes, but that is her writing. It makes good drama as well as creates more defined boundaries of decency. When someone says, "JKR has a very negative view of government." it means JKR, not the world JKR created. Satire can be used in many ways to make varying points without the satirist being necessarily cynical. In fact some of the greatest satirist I know are very hopeful which is why corruptions sticks out so blatantly for them. But noticing a corruption doesn't lead a logical and intelligent person to conclude it must all be corrupted. We may say what we want about whatever message she may be trying to send in her literature, but unless we have evidence of her views on government (or anything else RL) I think we should leave it alone. Once she puts it out there in an interview or on her website then we may use her words in an analysis of the book. Until that time, I think it is taking liberties where they shouldn't be taken. Theotokos greatelderone wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > Lupinlore again: > > She might find > having a simpleton chosen for Minister at the moment of crisis to be amusing, and perhaps even true to life (speculating on her views > here, not stating my own). > ******************* > > Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 10 04:23:19 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 21:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050510042319.87917.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128703 Barmaid: In regard to my point "a" what I am trying to get at is that I do not see anything in canon that indicates that the ticket thing would be viewed as "corruption" within the value system in which Arthur operates. [snip] I am very interested in these sorts of inconsistencies, in particular as we enter a "war" I am very interested in having a clear handle on how "unforgivable" the Unforgivable Curses are generally thought to be. As to Barty Sr. and his clear lapses.... my sense (and yes, I know this is only MY sense) has always been that this is more of an indictment of him as an individual, and [emphasis by theotokos] *********an exploration of how those fighting against "the bad guys" can lose sight of what it is that distinguishes them from the bad guys in the first place*********************** rather than a broad criticism of "government" in general. [snip] However, it also seems that an argument could be made that JKR does *not* see even this as a real problem, but rather just a humorous bit of irony. ************************** And, barmaid, to follow along with your point, when Harry was talking to Sirius about how evil that Umbridge-woman is, Sirius tells him that the world is not made up of good people and death eaters. This is a very important lesson for everyone to learn. I remember growing up and having to come to terms with the fact that people are not always right, nor are they always wrong. Good people can cause harm, and bad people can love. One of the major threads of these books that I have loved discussing with my daughter is how different everyone is and yet they can be friends. Even while ribbing each other, and getting mad at each other, and so on--they can get on together. It is a basic way to teach our kids that the world is complicated. I wish I could be more prosaic but it is late here and I am going to bed. I hope I don't get torn down to bad--well, really thats just me trying to be polite--I really don't care. 'Night all. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue May 10 08:06:32 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:06:32 -0000 Subject: Filk: Mr Fletcher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128704 Mr Fletcher, to the tune of Mr Sandman by the Chordettes. To Alla Fred and George, working hard on their new Snackboxes, find themselves in need of a few, shall we say, hard to come by ingredients. They sing: Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, etc. Mr Fletcher, bring us some seeds. Oh, Great Purveyor of Illicit Needs. For bloody nose, or nauseus tummy, Just make sure that we don't get caught by Mummy! Fletcher, now we've the clout To make this venture in joke sales work out. Candy that will make you bleed! Mr Fletcher, bring us a seed. Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, etc. Mr Fletcher, bring us some seed, And pardon us if we play on your greed. We've got the murtlap and the doxie venom- Oh, my, the things that our new treats have in'em! Fletcher, such a good bloke. Too bad old Moody can see through your cloak. So let's reword what we agreed- Mr Fletcher, give us the seeds. Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, Dung, etc. Mr Fletcher, once we move on >From Good old Hogwarts up to Diagon We'll have a stash of things that are funny, And, too, we'll have a stash of Wizard money. Fletcher, glory and fame, A trade where Weasley's the prominent name. You're such a friend, a friend indeed, Mr Fletcher, bring us, please, please, please, Mr Fletcher, bring us a seed. Ginger, wondering if the WW has an FDA, and how F&G would explain their ingredients should they ever be investigated. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue May 10 08:51:19 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 08:51:19 -0000 Subject: Filk: Super Stitches Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128705 Super Stitches, to the tune of Superstition by Stevie Wonder To CMC Arthur explains to Molly why his dressing was changed a day early. He sings: They are super stitches. That's how Muggles heal. They are super stitches. Now, dear, please don't squeal. Healer Pye, the trainee, took a Muggle class. Now he's got me stitched up, ribs right down to aaaaaa Aaaaas you can see, these things, which you don't understand, Help the healer. Super stitches are the way. They are super stitches. Sewn up nice and tight. They are super stitches. Healer got them right. Trussed up like a turkey, stuffing kept inside. Helps to stop the bleeding, elsewise I'd have died. As you can see, these things, which you don't understand, Help the healer. Super stitches are the way. They are super stitches. Please don't yell at me. They are super stitches. (looks around) Why'd they run for tea? Taking all my potions, getting my bedrest. Since I love things Muggle, put them to the test. As you can see, these things, which you don't understand, Help the healer. Super stitches are the way. Ginger, on some kind of a roll, or perhaps a bagel. From missvassy at yahoo.com Tue May 10 04:49:50 2005 From: missvassy at yahoo.com (missvassy) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 04:49:50 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128706 Here are mine: Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. I think his mentor needs to die in order for Harry to realize his full power and strength. I think it will happen in this book and not the last one. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I am guessing Godric Griffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I am going out on a limb here, but I think she was working as a double agent like Snape, until the prophecy was revealed. Then obviously she would want to be anywhere near Voldemort. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I am thinking someone entirely new. I assume it will be someone expendable so JKR can kill, maim, or otherwise render them immobile in the end. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think thimgs will start to develop between him and Ginny, but nothing super steamy. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Defintely. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Oddly enough, I think , yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? DADA (yes), Potions (yes), Herbology (yes), Transfiguration (yes), Charms (yes), History of Magic (yes), Astronomy (yes), Divinations (no), Care of Magical Creatures (yes). Eight. I know there is Muggle Studies, Arithmancy, and Ancient Runes which he didn't take. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Hermione and Ron get closer and even share a romantic moment that Harry witnesses unbeknownst to them. They fail to tell him and he becomes closer to Ginny because he feels betrayed by their secrecy. 2. The DA will become an established club and Harry will continue to be the leader. 3. Ron and not Harry will become the Quidditch captain. Harry won't mind because, although he will be reinstated as seeker he will be too busy with DA planning to also be captain. 4. Trelawny will make a prediction that neither Dumbledore nor Harry will like, but only because they misinterpret it. It will actually be important for the end battle and will aid Harry. 5. We will find out what has happened to Karkaroff (presumed dead, but actually being tortured for info), Pettigrew (still Voldy's lackey), Bagman (dead - Goblins put a hit out) since the end of GoF. --Miss Vassy From elfundeb at gmail.com Tue May 10 13:28:51 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 09:28:51 -0400 Subject: Corruption at the Ministry (WAS: Chapter Fourteen of HBP) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80f25c3a05051006286436669e@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128707 The Barmaid: > In regard to my point "a" what I am trying to get at is that I do not > see anything in canon that indicates that the ticket thing would be > viewed as "corruption" within the value system in which Arthur > operates. Ethics around the giving and receiving of gifts vary > greatly from one cultural group to another. There are two distinct questions here: First, whether the exchange of gifts and favors is an acceptable practice at the Ministry. I agree that JKR seems to imply that Arthur is well within customary practice when he trades favours for World Cup tickets or arranges to wire the Dursleys' house to the Floo system for his convenience. However, there is a second question: Does JKR approve of this or is she showing us a MoM that is inherently corrupt? Arthur's use of the favors system is generally benign, but still his receipt of the tickets suggests that favoritism controls decisions at the MoM. Arthur's actions invite comparisons with other examples that are presented in much more sinister fashion, such as Lucius and his generous donations to causes favored by Fudge. I think there is a more > universal argument to be made for Arthur being on ethically thin ice > over his misuse of Muggle artifact when he is charged with upholding > the laws on this. However, it also seems that an argument could be > made that JKR does *not* see even this as a real problem, but rather > just a humorous bit of irony. I might say instead that she does not see this as a *big* problem in the grand scheme of things. I also think it's possible that Arthur draws a distinction between tinkering with Muggle things (which might even be part of the Muggle studies curriculum) and even bewitching them, on the one hand, and putting such bewitched objects back into the hands of Muggles. > In regard to my point "b" I honestly want to know where that is in > canon. I am very interested in these sorts of inconsistencies, in > particular as we enter a "war" I am very interested in having a clear > handle on how "unforgivable" the Unforgivable Curses are generally > thought to be. The canon is in GoF ch. 27, Padfoot Returns, and the information comes from Sirius. He is, of course, highly biased against Crouch Sr. because Crouch was responsible for sending Sirius to Azkaban without trial, but I think we're meant to accept the basic facts as accurate. He states: "[Crouch] rose quickly through the Ministry and he started ordering very harsh measures against Voldemort's supporters. The Aurors were given new powers -- powers to kill rather than to capture, for instance. And I wasn't the only one who was handed straight to the dementors without trial. Crouch fought violence with violence, and authorized the use of the Unforgivable Curses against suspects. I would say he became as ruthless and cruel as many on the Dark side." The implication that the curses were used indiscriminately, and not only in self-defense or when absolutely necessary to bring in a suspect comes later: "I'll say this for Moody, though. He never killed if he could help it. Always brought people in alive where possible. He was tough, but he never descended to the level of the Death Eaters." This statement suggests that there were other Aurors, even possibly Frank Longbottom, who *did* descend to that level. Note that we are told (later, by Dumbledore) that Frank was popular and Sirius says that that a large segment of the public approved of Crouch Sr.'s methods. Long long ago (early in 2002), there was a significant amount of discussion about just what the Aurors were doing with the authority Crouch gave them. Were they shooting AKs at fleeing suspects? Subjecting suspects in custody to Cruciatus? Is this what Frank Longbottom was doing? If so, it's no more than many governments have done to reassure the public that public safety is being restored. (I will resist the temptation to name names.) Canon, AFAIK, doesn't answer any of these questions, but it does raise some interesting speculative possibilities. For example, many people have wondered why Bellatrix & co. insisted on using Crucio on the Longbottoms instead of simply AK'ing them. Aside from the official explanation -- that she thought Frank had information about Voldemort's whereabouts -- how about revenge as a motive for torturing them till they cracked? In fact, it doesn't matter whether or not he actually tortured suspects himself -- any Auror would do for revenge. And (because I am a FEATHERBOAS-wearing theorizer), maybe they even gave Neville a dose of it. > As to Barty Sr. and his clear lapses.... my sense (and yes, I know > this is only MY sense) has always been that this is more of an > indictment of him as an individual, and an exploration of how those > fighting against "the bad guys" can lose sight of what it is that > distinguishes them from the bad guys in the first place, rather than > a broad criticism of "government" in general. What we've seen of WW government suggests that the first rule of governance is retention of power. Protection of one's turf is an instinctive trait. Both Barty Sr. and Fudge pandered to public opinion to gain or maintain power. (Fudge is willing to deny that the most evil wizard of the century has returned in order to discredit his perceived opponent, whereas the text suggests that in authorizing the use of the UCs, Crouch Sr. was following the will of the public in order to set himself up for the top job.) So I think this is a commentary on the corruptive influence of power. There are many gaps in our knowledge of WW government, but there's very little evidence that there are any kind of checks on the power of those at the top in the MoM. (Remember how Cho tried to defend Marietta's actions by arguing that her mother's MoM job was in danger?) Whether the use of the Unforgivables by the Aurors will be sanctioned again depends on who the new Minister of Magic is and who heads the Department of Magical Law Enforcement (Crouch's position in VWI). While I do think that's possible, I certainly don't think the Order will go along with it, because the curses are unforgivable. Debbie who is very interested to see whether the MoM will be calling a general election in HBP or whether Fudge will be ousted in a palace coup From miamibarb at BellSouth.net Tue May 10 13:56:56 2005 From: miamibarb at BellSouth.net (ivogun) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 13:56:56 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128708 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley (in book six) He may be driven to an heroic act of "penance," and he will probably not be able to avail himself of protections provided by the order. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Griffindor (Although I like the idea of Prof. Flitwich--Prince Charming! nah, too corny) 3. What is Lily's big secret? She has figured out Voldemort's big secret. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone new or relatively unknown by Harry...a good person...perhaps another female. Someone who understands mind games and more subtle forms of trickery. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Susan Bones I think she likes Harry, because she seems to "defend" him during the formational meeting of DA. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Tiberius Ogden How can someone with a name like Tiberius not have leadership potential? His quiting the Wizengamot in protest does also seem to portray him as a leader in the opposition camp. (I like Madame Bones, but she seems too circumspect to be a true politician.) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Godric Griffindor's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, Harry can't get rid of Snape that easily. Neither can Snape get rid of Harry. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes (ditto from above.) 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7--Charms, Transfiguration, DADA, Potions, Care of Magical Creatures, Herbology and Divination.) I did think six, because Harry needs the skills from those classes. However, being that Hogwart's now has two teachers of divination, the whole school may well as be now be taking mandatory divination classes. Predictions (or WILD GUESSES, really): 1. Neville will begin to shine in academics, and his newly found confidence will attract (a) girlfriend(s). 2. We will meet a griffon in CoMC class 3. Petunia will display magical abilities. 4. We will meet or learn about someone from McGonagall's family--theother McGonagall. (Well, I'm curious about MM's family.) 5. Arthur (second cousin, once removed) will inherit Grimmauld Place, being that he is the nearest male descent relative, so with primogeniture he's next in line. From darkthirty at shaw.ca Tue May 10 15:58:24 2005 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:58:24 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128709 tigerpatronus wrote: Who will be the most major character to die? - Flitwick Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) - Grindelwald. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) - She's somehow connected to Snape going to the dark side - them green eyes.... Who will be the new DADA teacher? - Mad-eye Moody (ie, Tonks) With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? - Parvati (for most of book 6, anyway, until the end of the year, when he sees Luna in a new light (for some plottish reason) and presto! and so forth...) Who will be the new Minister of Magic? - A DE who is in fact loyal to DD, unbeknownst to us until penultimate chapter. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? - DD's pensieve Will Harry take Advanced Potions? - Yeah, sure Will Neville take Advanced Potions? - Yeah, sure How many OWLs did Harry get? - 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Charlie will "disappear" (go under cover) 2. Harry will visit Romania at the beginning of the book 3. Snape, the bitch, will be nice to HP and NL for most of the book 4. Somehow, Godric's Hollow scene will play on the double meaning of hollow 5. Ten-pin bowling be mentioned again, and dragon blood. Comments? Suggestions? From trube at online.no Tue May 10 18:41:25 2005 From: trube at online.no (ladytiger_no) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 18:41:25 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128710 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley - just after he's redeemed himself. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Dean Thomas > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She and Luna's mother was working together on some ancient magic (combination charm & potion) > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Mad-Eye Moody > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He'll have little time for romance, but might flirt a little with Orla Quirke > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? McGonagall will be asked, but Amelia Bones will accept the job > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledores pensive > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He got 11 (DADA*2 (theoretical & practical), Potions*2, Transfiguration*2, Charms*2, CoMC*2, Astronomy*1 (theory)). He failed Divination and practical Astronomy > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > > 1. There will be more than three good Slyterins > 2. Blaise Zabini will turn out to be one of the good Slytherins. > 3. Petunia will be the one to reveal some secret information about Lily (she knows far more than she's letting on) > 4. Dean Thomas' artistic talents will be important for one of the things that will happen during the year. > 5. Harry will continue to take Occlumency classes, but his teacher will not be professor Snape Regards, LadyTiger From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 10 19:24:25 2005 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:24:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: The religious content of HP: Geoff's restless mind Message-ID: <20050510192425.8665.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128711 Hans priginally said: > Just a short response to something Geoff Bannister said ages ago to > my statement that "The Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross" was a > Christian story because of the first name of the main character. > Geoff said that first names didn't necessarily mean anything about the > character of the person. Well, if we use that as a measuring stick, we > would have to conclude that the main character in "Pilgrim's Progress" by > John Bunyon was named "Christian" by coincidence. > That, of course, is totally unreasonable. We all know that "Pilgrim's > Progress" is an allegory of the journey of a Christian, and the name is > 100% > relevant and used deliberately. It is obviously the same with "The > Alchemical Wedding". The hero is called Christian because that name was > chosen deliberately to illustrate the point that "The Alchemical > Wedding" is a Christian story. Geoff: Just to set my mind at rest, I do not recall making a statement such as the one you quote above and I cannot find it in the archive of my messages. To set my mind at rest, can you quote the post number? I wonder if I have been credited with a pearl of wisdom which is not mine to claim.... Hans: 'Twas message 126195. Here's the relevant bit: >>Geoff: Bear in mind that a person's Christian name (or given name if you prefer) does not necessarily indicate what their personality or world view will be. In my own case, Geoffrey is a variant of "Godfrey" and comes from the German "Gottfried" which means "God's peace". Many of my friends over the years have observed that I was not well-named. :-)<< I hope your mind is at rest. Warm regards, Hans "if I talk too freely about [if I believe in God] I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling _____________________________________ Hans Andra see you at Harry Potter for Seekers http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From celletiger at yahoo.com Tue May 10 20:40:51 2005 From: celletiger at yahoo.com (Marcelle) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 20:40:51 -0000 Subject: Rosmerta - First or Last name In-Reply-To: <000d01c553d7$c8375270$fe1bf204@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128712 > Sherry now: > > I don't have my braille books handy and it's too crazy to look up one particular section in an audio book, but do any adults call Rosemerta "Madam"? Could the title be more of a respect thing for the children to use? When my best friends boys were very small they called me "Miss Sherry", because their parents wanted them to use some kind of respectful title when addressing adults. They didn't like the way kids were going around calling any and all adults by their first names and wanted them to learn some respect for older people. now, the kids call me Aunt Sherry, but it's the same principle except that I'm considered a member of the family and they gave me a family title. > However, as we see in the Potter books, the kids routinely call adults some sort of formal title. Here in the states, it's become old-fashioned for kids to refer to adults by titles like Mr. or Mrs. in many cases. Yet in the Potter world, Harry always refers to the Weasley parents as Mr. or Mrs., just to name one example. So, i always thought the words Madam Rosemerta were sort of a courtesy used mostly by the hoards of school children. > > Sherry celletiger here: Titles are about respect/good manners, IMHO. DD has to remind Harry to say "Professor" Snape. Harry doesn't respect Snape. In contrast, I'd bet that the students always say *Professor* McGonnogal, b/c they respect her. HRH say "Hagrid" b/c he is their friend. I think they say Madame Rosmerta b/c its courteous. I'm from the Southern US, and in my culture, positivley *every* female that is at least one generation older than *you* and not family or a pseudo-aunt is refered to as "Miss First Name" no matter their married status or career status. "Miss First Name" to us down here is simply courteous. Friends from different parts of the country tell me they think this is strange. And from the original post on this topic, apparently, Sherry and I are in the minority in thinking that it's just good manners and not disrespectful that Rosmerta isn't called by her last name. Madame, or Miss Rosmerta (as a first name) seems perfectly normal to me. celletiger, aka Aunt Celle or Miss Marcelle, but certainly NOT Mrs. My Last Name From cat_kind at yahoo.com Tue May 10 21:27:29 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 21:27:29 -0000 Subject: The religious content of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <20050509191112.3393.qmail@web25108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128713 Hans: >> I've been following the discussion about the religious content of Harry Potter with great interest. First of all I want to answer a poster who asked about the quote from Rowling which I've had as part of my signature for all this year. The exact quote is: "Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books.'' It can be found on http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm. >>I've put this in my signature because in my opinion it is the most significant thing she's ever said about Harry Potter. What she's saying is that the plot CAN BE GUESSED! There IS a pattern, and if you know that pattern, you can work out the message and the climax. And it's so obvious, that even a ten year old can work it out. And it is connected to the belief in God! It just so happens that I'm 60 and I'm absolutely sure I have discovered the pattern the books are based on.<< catkind: I'm sure I'm not the only one who has said this before in response to your JKR quote. It can be interpreted in plenty of other ways than a Rosicrucian conspiracy. JKR is known to be a member of the Presbyterian church, so it seems more likely that if there is a religious message it's based on her own religion, not Rosicrucianism. If you think you know better than us what is to come, why not take part in tigerpatronus's predictions competition? Maybe more people would listen to you if you actually had some correct predictions. Hans: >>It is irrelevant to this discussion whether the pattern itself is factual or a patchwork of lies. I'm not asking the members of this group to discuss the pattern. As a loyal, contributing member of HPfGU I'm doing my duty in pointing out the pattern that Jo is basing Harry Potter on. << > > Unfortunately so far very few members have taken the trouble to examine the > pattern to see whether it resembles Harry Potter. That's because > (a) they're not interested in it because they find spiritual stuff boring; > (b) they don't agree with the pattern, therefore they can't conceive that Jo > could possibly have used it to base Harry Potter on; > (c) I'm inviting you to supply other reasons. catkind: One possibility for c) might be that people have read a couple of your posts, decided they disagree with your theory, and moved on. A variant on b) might be that people believe that *JKR* doesn't agree with the pattern, and therefore wouldn't have used it. There's also the point that your theory is very, very complicated. It takes a lot of time to try to work out what you are saying. Most people here are here for fun, not to study esoteric religion. So there's another c), or possibly a): people don't have time. We're not denying the facts, we're just interpreting them differently. For example, I think there are similarities between HP and alchemy because both draw on similar "mystic" traditions. Hans: > In addition here's another quote which speaks volumes: "Rowling, [ ] said she couldn't answer the questions about the book's religious content until the conclusion of book seven." http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-chictimes-tucker.html catkind: I think this is just a journalist paraphrasing the previous quote, actually. Hans: > Please note that everything I say is my opinion, but I thought it rather boring to start every sentence like that. catkind: It would maybe be a good idea to say this at least once or twice in your Accio paper. It would convey a more detached and academic tone if you occasionally said "Rosicrucians believe that ..." or "I believe that". At the moment it is giving the impression that you are trying to convert the reader to your religion, which you say is not your aim. You also present your opinions about JKR's aims as cold facts, which isn't going to come across well to an audience that probably has their own strong opinions about what she might be symbolising. Just my opinion. catkind From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 10 22:02:44 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:02:44 -0000 Subject: The religious content of HP: Geoff's restless mind In-Reply-To: <20050510192425.8665.qmail@web25110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128714 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: > Hans: > 'Twas message 126195. Here's the relevant bit: > > >>Geoff: > Bear in mind that a person's Christian name (or given name if you prefer) > does not necessarily indicate what their personality or world view will be. > > In my own case, Geoffrey is a variant of "Godfrey" and comes from the German > "Gottfried" which means "God's peace". Many of my friends over the years > have observed that I was not well-named. :-)<< > > I hope your mind is at rest. > Warm regards, > Hans Geoff: 'twas your post caused me to overlook this message in my archive because you said it was "ages ago" when it was actually on 16th March this year. However, dank U wel, dear boy, for finding the reference. The end of the message, which you did not quote was also of interest. Best wishes From spaebrun at yahoo.com Tue May 10 22:08:58 2005 From: spaebrun at yahoo.com (spaebrun) Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 22:08:58 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128715 Though in a state of deep lurking, I couldn't miss the opportunity of trying to earn such high honors... and free butterbeer! 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I am pretty sure that Dumbledore will not make it to the end of the series, but if he dies in book 6 it would leave book 7 completely Dumbledore-free and I'm not sure JKR would want that. *If* he dies in book 6, it will happen at the grand finale. If not (which is what I'm leaning towards)... hmmm... what about... Lucius Malfoy? That would make the way free for his son to become whatever he's bound to become. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I opt for it being Godric Griffindore himself. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I like the idea of her working as an Unspeakable on the power in the locked room. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Definitely a new character! It may be 'the old lion guy' but his name is not Felix Felicis, which will not be a person's name at all. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? In the end, it will probably be Ginny, but in book 6 Harry's love life will not play an important role (he's had enough of it in book 5) . The romance part of the book will be dedicated to Ron and Hermione, with Ron becoming aware of his feelings towards her and everything being very complicated possibly also due to a re-appearance of Viktor Krum ;-). 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones - after the shock of Voldemort's return they'll choose someone who's 'pro- Dumbledore'. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course! ;-) 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I don't think so. Why would he do that to himself? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Definitely: DADA, Charms, Transfiguration, CoMC, Herbology, Potions Perhaps also Astronomy and *maybe* Divination, but that won't matter much for the story. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. We will learn more about the founders of Hogwarts, their relationships to one another and the early history of the school. 2. The 'good Slytherins' will make their appearance. There will be attempts of uniting the students of the different Houses which will turn out to be very difficult. Also, some students from *all* Houses will show tendencies to support Voldemort. (At the end of the series I think the House system will be abolished.) 3. We will learn more about Goblins. The question which side they'll take in the war will be important and the way how Wizards treat their fellow magical creatures will be a big issue in this context. 4. Hagrid having taken care of Grawp will make it possible for the Order to convince some of the Giants to fight against Voldemort, but Grawp will also give a lot of trouble to Hagrid. 5. Harry will learn details about the 'prank', probably from Lupin. Still he won't be able to make up with Snape and at the end of the book Snape will look very suspicious - there will be strong hints that he is betraying the Order. ... just 65 more days until we can confirm all this ;-) Reed From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed May 11 02:16:35 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 02:16:35 -0000 Subject: The religious content of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cat_kind" wrote: > Hans: > >> I've been following the discussion about the religious content of > Harry Potter with great interest. First of all I want to answer a > poster who asked about the quote from Rowling which I've had as part > of my signature for all this year. The exact quote is: "Every time > I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said yes, because I do, > but no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that, > and I have to say that does suit me, because if I talk too freely > about that I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be > able to guess what's coming in the books.'' It can be found on > http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm. > > >>I've put this in my signature because in my opinion it is the most > significant thing she's ever said about Harry Potter. > catkind: > I'm sure I'm not the only one who has said this before in > response to your JKR quote. It can be interpreted in plenty of > other ways than a Rosicrucian conspiracy. JKR is known to be a > member of the Presbyterian church, so it seems more likely that if > there is a religious message it's based on her own religion, not > Rosicrucianism. .....edited...... > For example, I think there are similarities between HP and alchemy > because both draw on similar "mystic" traditions. Valky: I think catkind, that what you say here is precisely the significance of the above quote. I believe that the books reflect a fundamental understanding of many religions and the symbols that resonate most deeply with that religion's story of salvation, liberation and the grace of the creator (God). The HP books are overflowing with potent symbolism that calls many, regardless of their religion, to ponder the story of their hero of salvation/liberation again and more deeply. This, in my opinion, is hence why JKR was able to say that a ten year old would probably guess whats coming if they knew the basis of it, because the symbols that many of us have found in searching for the answers to our spiritual questions are there, even the ones that we have known from an early age. Catkind: > If you think you know better than us what is to come, why not take > part in tigerpatronus's predictions competition? Maybe more people > would listen to you if you actually had some correct predictions. > Valky: I have begun to do this myself, I am posting at my own predictions contest group "The Prophecy Orb @ Row 97". http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Prophecy_Orb/ My half year break will begin two weeks before book release and from now until then I will be posting certain predictions I have based on insight from Hans posts. You are welcome to keep track of them and hang me out to dry if I make a big fool of myself. However, I am quite confident that Hans and others who have intricate knowledge of their religious symbols are offering insight into the series that surmounts other efforts. Just in addition, on Hans' T.O.E. (Theory of Everything) I would like to express my appreciation to Hans that he has the courage and faith to share this with others. What is key to Hans interpretation of the books is the title of his essay - Roadmap To Liberation - the HP books have a very moral and courageous message of grace, truth and human failings. Notwithstanding the spiritual port that you would prefer to anchor them to, they make accessible the most powerful and virtuous implication of all religions. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 11 04:20:25 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 04:20:25 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128717 On a lovely, bright, shining day in the Bay, a lone individual sits on the dock, splashing her feet in the water. She can be heard singing a little ditty, thoroughly enjoying herself. Sittin' on the dock of the Bay, Watchin' the boats all sinkin' away.... "Man!" says our unidentified Bay visitor, "There's NOBODY around here. It's like a ghost bay!" She returns to splashing and singing: Sittin' in the morning sun I'll be sittin' when the evening comes Watchin' the ships go NOWHERE Then I watch `em going NOWHERE again. I left my home in Indiana.... "Man!" says this woman who seems to do a lot of talking to herself, "I wish Jen Reese or Grannybat were around, to bounce this idea off of!" At that very moment, a speedboat whizzes by, with skier in tow. Alas, the skier falls, and our visitor discovers that she is none other than Ms. Jen Reese herself. "Wow! I must have some cool, telepathic, magical summoning ability," remarks the woman. She waves an old, beat-up life preserver at Jen, upon which can just be made out the word DRIBBLE. "Jen!" she shouts. "Over here!!" "Goodness gracious," replies the waterlogged skier, climbing up onto the dock. "What are you doing here, SSSusan?" "Well," says SSSusan, "I've been thinking about that old theory of yours & Grannybat's, DRIBBLE." She holds up the faded life preserver. "See?" "Oh, my," says Jen. "I haven't thought of that in ages!" "Well, look," SSSusan cries excitedly, flipping over the life preserver, revealing another faded DRIBBLE and what appears to be a Magic-Markered addendum: SHADOWS. "I've added onto your theory!" "Oh, really? Do tell." "Happy to. First, you do remember what DRIBBLE stands for, right?" "Of course," says Jen. "Grannybat came up with it. It stands for Dragon's Resistance in Blood Brings Life-saving Effects. It was all about the idea that dragons are extra difficult to slay, owing to the *ancient magic* that imbues their thick hides, which none but the most powerful spells can penetrate. And then Grannybat pointed out that it's only reasonable to assume that dragon *blood* contains at least as much protective quality as dragon *hide*." "Right," replies SSSusan. "And you pointed out that JKR has told us Harry's EYES are his most vulnerable area, which is also a *dragon's* most vulnerable point." "Yes!" says Jen, warming to the topic. "And Grannybat wondered if Harry's poor vision came about *because* he's got dragon blood in him." "Yeah!" says SSSusan. "Now, I'll admit, that's the part I had the hardest time going along with. I'm not sure if it's the VISION which indicates the presence of dragon blood protection in Harry. I think it may be the similar point of vulnerability which indicates that. But, whatever! I think I know just how and when that dragon blood protection came into effect for Harry ? and who was behind it!" "Really?? Tell me!" "Okay. But you maybe better grab that beach chair, Jen; this could take awhile." Jen runs to grab two comfy lounge chairs, and the two settle in. SSSusan, having come nicely prepared for the day, pulls a pitcher of margaritas out of the little cooler at her side. "Can I tempt you, Jen?" "Why, thank you," Jen smiles. "Okay. So anyway.... I always liked DRIBBLE and its emphasis on Harry's eyes. Their vivid greenness -- like a Welsh Green? The fact that JKR said a couple of scenes in the PoA movie gave her goosebumps because of their significant foreshadowing -- and I wondered if Harry's glasses coming off under the Whomping Willow might've been one of those. You know, hinting again that his EYES are his vulnerability, and if his glasses come off, then they're not protected? "So I started thinking about what we still need to know, and I think I have fit a whole bunch of things together. "We know Lily protected Harry through her sacrifice, made out of love for him. We know there's also *some* protection afforded Harry through his returning to the Dursleys each year, though we don't know how far that extends and whether it protects him only from Voldy or from the DEs or from any kind of harm. Well, I think there is a *third* protection on Harry, and that is what DRIBBLE: SHADOWS is all about." "So what's it stand for?" "Dragon's Resistance In Blood Bestows Life-saving Effects: Snape, Hagrid And Dumbledore's Ointment Was Supplement." "Hmmmm. Sounds interesting. Tell me more." Sipping greedily at her margarita, and eyes beginning to dance with excitement, SSSusan continues, "I think what happened ? and the reason DD trusts Snape ? is that Snape found out Voldy knew a portion of the prophecy *and* that he was targeting the Potters. Snape decided to turn away from Voldy ? maybe because of old feelings for Lily, who knows? ? but he went to DD with the information. And then these two began to consider what they could do to protect Harry. DD, already knowledgable about dragon blood ? having determined its 12 uses, after all ? asked Snape about the possibility of somehow utilizing it. And Snape?" "Oh! He developed a potion utilizing dragon blood that might protect Harry!" Jen interjects. "Right! An ointment, actually. Only Snape couldn't work on the ointment without help, because he had no access to dragon blood." "Ah, so Hagrid helped." "Yes. Hagrid, having the way with creatures that he does, was able to gather dragon blood samples for Snape. So Snape made the ointment. Only ? of all pieces of bad luck ? it hadn't yet been applied to Harry when Voldy attacked at Godric's Hollow." "Huh?" says a puzzled Jen. "Just hear me out! It was nearly ready, but the attack happened before DD could get to Sirius, who he believed was the Secret Keeper, to find out how to get to Harry and get the ointment applied. So, when Harry survived the attack ? due to Lily's sacrifice ? the Fidelius Charm was broken, and DD sent Hagrid to GH immediately, with *very specific* instructions." "You mean... the missing 24 hours?" "Yup," grins SSSusan. "Dumbledore, mightily relieved that Harry had survived the attack, decided to do anything & everything he could to FURTHER protect Harry, because he believed Voldemort to not truly be dead. He had Hagrid pick up Harry from the wreckage and take him to Snape, who applied the ointment. The ointment needed several hours to sink into the blood stream and to become activated there. Once that had happened, Hagrid flew with baby Harry to meet DD at the Dursleys." "Hmmmm," Jen responds. "It's interesting, anyway." "AND it explains so much!" says SSSusan. "Why Hagrid defends Snape to the Trio all the time. Why DD trusts Snape. What the missing 24 hours was about. Maybe why Snape is so hateful to Harry. Harry, after all, has NO IDEA what Snape's already done for him, and Snape receives no credit for his efforts. It *might* even explain why Harry was able to hold out against Voldy in the graveyard, mightn't it? The extra protection? Harry's dragon-like ability to hold out against powerful spells? I tell you, DRIBBLE: SHADOWS suits me just fine." The two friends sip their margaritas in silence, contemplating the possibilities. Siriusly Snapey Susan, with gratitude to Grannybat for her DRIBBLE TBAY in 83354 From ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com Wed May 11 03:51:21 2005 From: ellendvlmaas at yahoo.com (ellendvlmaas) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 03:51:21 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128718 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I think it will be Pettigrew. He owes Harry, and I think he'll botch his attempt to save Harry (meaning, he'll snuff it trying). We lost Sirius, in the Order. I think it's time for a major player to go on the Dark side. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Tired response, but I agree with Godric Griffindor. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? I don't know about her having a big secret, but I think something about her eyes will be revealed in Book 6. > > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Gotta be someone new. Probably the "lion guy", who is probably related to Godric. > > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one. I hope. Or at least he'd better make a wiser choice than Cho. > > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I also think Amelia Bones is what the wizarding world is wanting. The MoM was starting to come around at the end of Book 5. I think it's ready for a new, reasonable voice. > > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. If not belonging to the HBP, then it will contain crucial information about him. > > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yep. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I think he's starting to feel his oats, now. He might be scared stiff of Snape, but I think Nevelle is ready to start standing up to him. Even if he doesn't make a good enough OWL (or one at all) in potions, I think he'll still find himself starting to be able to face him. Neville getting into Advanced Potions is a long shot, but he really started buckling down in Book 5. So, I'll say... yes. > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Enough to continue with his auror goal. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Harry's "shortest stay yet" at PD will be because he's called to hear Sirius's will -- leaving him with 12 Grimmauld Place and the Black family fortune. (Harry promply buys Lupin some new robes.) Kreacher dies of shock (or some other suitable cause) and Dobby takes his place -- with pay, of course. 2. Nevelle's new wand "chooses him" and he comes into his own with it (LOVED this idea, shared earlier). 3. Ron advances as a tactician. JKR will prepare him for his part as a stratigist in the big attack on Hogwarts (not to happen 'till Book 7, though). Maybe Quiddich Captian is a part of this training, but I don't believe that will happen in Book 6. 4. Ron's quiddich play will improve considerably in 6 (which has to happen first, before he can be Captian). 5. Harry's "life-long" quiddich ban will be lifted (or is this too "duh"???). 6. OK, one more then. Dobby brings Winky to Grimmauld Place, who has wailing matches with Mrs. Black, much to Dobby's -- and the rest of the Order's -- dismay. ellen From joshism1981 at yahoo.com Wed May 11 03:57:21 2005 From: joshism1981 at yahoo.com (joshism1981) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 03:57:21 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128719 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Godric Gryffndor 3. What is Lily's big secret? She knew she was going to die, but was convinced her death would give Harry the power to one day defeat Voldemort. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? a totally new character 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione 6.Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? a pensieve (duh) 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9 OWLs Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. We will learn about the Gryffndor-Slytherin split 2. Hermione will get all her OWLS, but not with a perfect score 3. Katie Bell will be the new Gryffindor Quidditch Captain 4. we'll pretty much know by the end of the book it'll be Harry/Hermione and not Ron/Hermione (and we'll see more Ron/Luna) 5. Wormtail's silver hand will be important at some point in the plot joshism From irreality at mit.edu Wed May 11 05:22:57 2005 From: irreality at mit.edu (komagata_mai) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 05:22:57 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools In-Reply-To: <20050506052240.11455.qmail@web31513.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128720 I would argue that a school like Hogwarts, would be a secular private (not-state owned) school. a) there are no religion classes of any sort. Even in religious schools that do not proselytize a single religion, an overview of theology or world religions still seems to be in the curriculum. Although given Hogwarts students arent taught things like Math either, this might not be a strong argument either way. b) there seems to be no mention of a chapel anywhere in hogwarts. Odds are, it has a non-denominational chapel of some sort (it seems like the sort of thing old castles would have), but if it is not mentioned there seems to be no "school sponsored/scheduled" religious activities of any sort c) Funding for hogwarts does not seem to come from any religious institution, it probably has some sort of endowment set up over the course of 1000 years. Thus, it would serve no purpose for Hogwarts to be religious (it does not need the money), nor would it serve a religious institution to make Hogwarts affiliated to them, since religion is not mentioned at any time as part of the course of study/student life. Now, on the other hand, i dont see anything that particularly ties the wizarding world to pagan religions or witchcraft traditions. Magic, in the WW, does not seem to originate from a divine/mystical source. It seems to be, for most intents and purposes, a genetic mutation, and magic is used as a technology, replacing cars, subways, electricity, engineering. As such, a tool and a science, it has no reason to conflict with most present day religions, which acknowlege that faith and technology should need to be in contradiction (note that I said most, not all). Thus, I see no reason for wizards not to grow up in a society where some people are religious, and some are not, just like in muggle society. a) Their hospital is named after a saint (St. Mungo), who is clearly a wizard and a religious man. b) Their holidays are labeled with Christian names, which implies they dont reject muggle religions, even if they do not impose them. c) the fat friar was a friar and a wizard d) the belief of a soul is common, otherwise a dementor would not be effective against someone. Most major religions have some concept of a soul, or eternal part of the self, so this is not indicative solely of Christianity, but of a religious tradition worldview. Ghosts also imply the existence of a eternal component to the person. bottom line: Hogwarts is probably not religious, but that does not mean that religion is in contradiction with the WW. It seems to fit in just fine. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 11 06:47:15 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 06:47:15 -0000 Subject: Religion in US, UK, Hogwarts Schools In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "komagata_mai" wrote: > I would argue that a school like Hogwarts, would be a secular private (not-state owned) > school. > Geoff: May I just repeat something I wrote in message 128539: "I think that this question of schools is reflected in other areas. Although much of British society is now secular, it needs to be remembered that a huge swathe of institutions in the UK came originally from Christian sources. The public schools, ranging from the big ones such as Eton and Harrow down to smaller, more locally- supported institutions spring immediately to mind. But hospitals are also often linked to Christian backgrounds ? they often sprang from the infirmaries of the old abbeys and monasteries. Likewise our political institutions and ideas of social welfare. Look at the work done by folk like Shaftesbury to remove child labour and Wilberforce to abolish slavery as an example. It was in the long period of development of social conscience over many centuries, underpinned by Christian belief, that Hogwarts was also developing its ethos and traditions. So I see no reason why the school and its staff should not adopt and reflect the mores of the times it lived through." I feel that in the present climate in the UK, religious education has become very diluted and, dare I say, rather wishy-washy but this does not remove the historical facts about institutions as I wrote above. The same malaise could easily have come to Hogwarts, mirroring the declining emphasis on faith in the real world of today. It is perhaps a modern reflection of the times. From cat_kind at yahoo.com Wed May 11 09:08:44 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:08:44 -0000 Subject: Moral messages Re: The religious content of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128722 > > catkind earlier (to Hans): > > I'm sure I'm not the only one who has said this before in > > response to your JKR quote. It can be interpreted in plenty of > > other ways than a Rosicrucian conspiracy. JKR is known to be a > > member of the Presbyterian church, so it seems more likely that if > > there is a religious message it's based on her own religion, not > > Rosicrucianism. .....edited...... > > For example, I think there are similarities between HP and alchemy > > because both draw on similar "mystic" traditions. > > Valky: > I think catkind, that what you say here is precisely the significance > of the above quote. I believe that the books reflect a fundamental > understanding of many religions and the symbols that resonate most > deeply with that religion's story of salvation, liberation and the > grace of the creator (God). The HP books are overflowing with potent > symbolism that calls many, regardless of their religion, to ponder the > story of their hero of salvation/liberation again and more deeply. > This, in my opinion, is hence why JKR was able to say that a ten year > old would probably guess whats coming if they knew the basis of it, > because the symbols that many of us have found in searching for the > answers to our spiritual questions are there, even the ones that we > have known from an early age. catkind: That wasn't the way I meant it though. I think the religious symbolism is not in the detail but in the overlying themes: good versus evil, and how good will win. (Though actually, it's more human vs. evil isn't it?) A religious parallel like that could indeed be simple enough for a ten-year-old to understand, which all these symbolism theories patently aren't. I think the "alchemical" symbolism comes from the fact that JKR draws on traditional ideas of witches and wizards and magic, and those ideas often stem from or are related to the old alchemists and other mystic traditions. For example, the Weasleys have seven children and there are seven books because seven is "well known" to be a magical number (seventh son etc.), not because of seven chakras or seven levels of existence and so on. (Okay, and of course there are generally seven years of secondary education in the UK.) I don't think this is intended as religious symbolism. For the record, I don't see anything deeply moral or religious in the books so far. So there are good guys and bad guys. This goes for an awful lot of books. To me, the best thing they do morally is to ask questions that get us all thinking about the differences between good and nice, or good and "on our side". I'm not even sure if this was deliberate in the earlier books: Hagrid is good, the Dursleys are bad, therefore it's just fine for Hagrid to be nasty to a terrified eleven-year-old boy, whom he's never met before, for being fat. Or maybe this is done on purpose - the good side being fallible (in the sense of doing bad things, not just making mistakes) from the very first. In a slightly tongue-in-cheek attempt to discern moral messages in the HP books, I come up with the following: Loyalty is good. Love is good. Prejudice is bad. Torturing people is bad. (possible exceptions made depending on identity of victim) Killing people is bad. (possible exceptions made depending on identity of victim) Slavery might be bad or not, depending on both slave and master. Fun is good. This really isn't a very impressive list is it? I must have missed something. I did honestly try. > Valky: > I am posting at my own predictions > contest group "The Prophecy Orb @ Row 97". > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Prophecy_Orb/ catkind: I look forward to seeing how all these predictions pan out. Doubtless plenty of us are making fools of ourselves, self included. All part of the fun! catkind (rambling so far it wanders out of the room) From lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com Wed May 11 09:41:25 2005 From: lindseyharrisst at hotmail.com (lindseyharrisst) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:41:25 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128723 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Overall, Snape. I hate to say it, as I'm his absolute biggest fan, but I thik either in book 6 or 7 it would fit the redemptive pattern established so far that he becomes a martyr and at last we see him truly absolved (and so does Harry)through a noble death saving Harry, so Harry can save the world. The book should be re- named "Seversu Snape an dthe Noble Sacrifice" if you ask me :) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? I must confess to not hvaing the faintest idea, but for the game, I'll say Dumbledore! 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She's related to the Heir of Slytherin (whihc is Voldie, isn't it?) in some way. It'd make sense that the heir's of Gryffindor and Slytherin ended up producing Harry the Unifier. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? That Lion Chap 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, revolted as I am... 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Either Amelia Bones or Dumbledore. Probably Amelia, as D will be busy. We know whose side she's on and I don't think it makes narrative sense (here I go...I always say that and am totally wrong, lol) for us to have someone we've never met. Unless it's Lion Chap and Lion chap is the half blood prince and MOM, OF COURSE! 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve (sorry for ebing dull) 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. I know he did much better in the exams than in class, but I still don't see how he will suddenly find Snape amenable to having him in class, and i don't think he'd have achieved the top grade needed. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All of them Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Draco will become a DE, or if he's too young, side with them, in an attempt to avenge his father, but will show some redemptive qualities at the very end, not by suddenly doing something demonstratively charming, but by having the clear, immediate opportunity to capture harry or another DA member and turning a blind eye, or flufing something he was asked to do on purpose. 2. Neville will have the memory charm we can assume is on him to protect him from the memory of what happened to his parents removed and will be revealed to be very quick witted once that burden has gone. He will also be aided by havig his own wand, rather than his Dad's. 3. Percy will be re-united with the Weasleys through something that happens to either him, or one of them that makes them forget their grudge. I don't think it'll be soon, but it will happen. 4. Lupin will tell Harry more about his parents and the significance of Harry having his mother's eyes will be revealed. 5. Lucius will escape from Azkaban and die in the battle. Mrs Malfoy won't mourn and neither will Draco. Ta-da! Snapesangel x From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed May 11 11:45:51 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:45:51 -0000 Subject: Moral messages Re: The religious content of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128725 Catkind: > For the record, I don't see anything deeply moral or religious in > the books so far. So there are good guys and bad guys. This goes for > an awful lot of books. To me, the best thing they do morally is to > ask questions that get us all thinking about the differences between > good and nice, or good and "on our side". > > I'm not even sure if this was deliberate in the earlier books: > Hagrid is good, the Dursleys are bad, therefore it's just fine for > Hagrid to be nasty to a terrified eleven-year-old boy, whom he's > never met before, for being fat. Valky: Ughhh Catkind, is that not a nauseatingly lopsidedly politically correct statement.. ? For the record I think that this particular scene can hardly undermine the moral message of the books, when it is in context a no so bright but bighearted (and admittedly burly) oaf of a man standing for the defense of an oppressed and overwhelmed innocent against his torturers of a decade of his life. Yeah I think it goes to Hagrids failings but also to his virtue as he's not by nature a fighting person, but he'll fight for this cause because he believes in it, he believes Harry deserves his chance to be great and have love. Catkind: > In a slightly tongue-in-cheek attempt to discern moral messages in > the HP books, I come up with the following: > Loyalty is good. > Love is good. > Prejudice is bad. > Torturing people is bad. > (possible exceptions made depending on identity of victim) > Killing people is bad. > (possible exceptions made depending on identity of victim) > Slavery might be bad or not, depending on both slave and master. > Fun is good. > > This really isn't a very impressive list is it? I must have missed > something. I did honestly try. > Valky: Well I suppose you did try but I think that the meaning of the word moral isn't really served justice by that list. Sure it ticks the boxes of basic meaning, but it has a tone of sarcasm that seems to be directed not at the HP books but at the very notion of morality. Not that it is so big a thing if that is how you feel then that is your choice, and then I might also be reading it all wrong and I am sorry if I did that. Anyhow, how about a list of my own? Moral messages in Harry Potter: Bad is not confined to people with deadly weapons and criminal records. Good is not confined to people without them. Truth and honesty are powerful. When someone is wise it doesn't mean they have all the answers, more often than not they have the most questions. Kindness can change somebody's life. We all make choices. > > Valky: > > I am posting at my own predictions > > contest group "The Prophecy Orb @ Row 97". > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/The_Prophecy_Orb/ > > catkind: > I look forward to seeing how all these predictions pan out. Valky: So do I, I have posted one tonight, exams are coming my way so I thought I should get at least a start on keeping my promise... ahh the choices I make.... :D From patientx3 at aol.com Wed May 11 12:24:41 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:24:41 -0000 Subject: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128726 I was reading through SS for the first time in awhile, and something struck me. Its mentioned twice that the Voldemort times lasted eleven years. [first was in the above quote, and second when he says "for eleven years I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper name: /Voldemort/."] Firstly, I was wondering what exactly marked the beginning of the eleven years. Its so specific, it could have easily been rounded to a decade or ten years, but it wasn't, so it makes me think that Voldemort first "showed his true colors" in a big act, which possibly incited all the fear surrounding him at once rather than little-by- little. People have been afraid to even say his name for eleven years, I wonder what he did that made him so prominent. If there wasn't a big act, but rather a large number of quiet disappearences and rumors, but never anything large to mark a beginning of his "reign", why would Dumbledore be so specific? Secondly, I did some basic math with those years and came up with something interesting. According to JKR, Sirius (and by implication, the other three mauraders and Lily and Snape), was 22 at the time Dumbledore said that, which means at the start of Voldemort's rule, they were in their first year at Hogwarts. I guess its pretty obvious, but I had never made that connection before. IMO, this sheds a lot of light on the relationship between Snape and James, and why Sirius made a specific point of mentioning that James hated the dark arts. If Snape was as into the dark art and knew as many curses as Sirius suggested, it makes me wonder who taught him them and why. Were his parents DE's or just concerned about the coming days and taught him those to protect himself? Considering the choices he made later in life, I'd guess the former. After all, being into the dark arts in that sort of climate would be something you'd do better to hide. Its easy to see why Snape would be so unpopular (just like people of certain races have problems when there are wars in their-- or their ancestor's--home countries). Also, this means that Lucius Malfoy was 16 when Voldemort first rose to power, and the other DE's who showed up at the graveyard and the DoM were all most likely still in school as well. Was he already recruiting them? Surely they weren't *already* active DEs, unless they dropped out of school (probably not, since they weren't *open* DEs). Voldemort must not have been as successful as everyone thought then, because it appears all of his original followers either died in prison or were killed before they made it there. Were they the parents of the current DEs? I'd guess that the war going on when James et al were in school is why they all ended up in the Order (unlike Molly and Arthur who weren't in the original Order even though they were older and, presumably, more experienced). Just as Dumbledore has a beyond headmaster relationship with some of pupils now (not just Harry but Hermione and the Weaslys), it makes sense that he would have had acted similarily during the first war. James and Lily were only 22 and had faced Voldemort personally more than once, that's pretty young by any standard to be involved so heavily in the war. Dumbledore must have recruited them right out of school. Oh, and not really related to the above, but I did find something else of note in the first chapter of SS/PS: [chpt 1, pg 12; us hb edi] "Dumbledore gave a great sniff as he took a golden watch from his pocket and examined it. It was a very odd watch. It had twelve hands but no numbers; instead little planets were moving around the edge." Okay, what the heck is that thing? Am I right in saying it hasn't been mentioned since? Perhaps (and just throwing this out) its the way the Order members communicate? He did look at it and comment that Hagrid was late. -HunterGreen (Rebecca, who apologizes if that was all a bunch of rambles, its very late and I haven't posted in a looong time). From ladilyndi at yahoo.com Wed May 11 12:34:43 2005 From: ladilyndi at yahoo.com (Ladi lyndi) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 05:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Chapter Fourteen of HBP; aka Lupinlore's Big OOPS In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050511123443.30329.qmail@web32708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128727 greatelderone wrote: GEO: Thats frankly your intepretation, but the exchange that occured in my opinion violated certain ethical rules that govern public servants like Arthur Weasley especially since he was hired to uphold the law in relation to muggle artifacts and their enchantments and then there is the whole bit about him accepting gifts of such value. Lynn: I'm missing where canon says Arthur did the favour FOR the tickets and exactly what the nature of the favour was. Arthur states that Bagman got them good tickets and that he did a bit of a favour for Bagman's brother by smoothing things over. He doesn't say he did it FOR the tickets but my interpretation of it means that Ludo went the extra mile to get good tickets because Arthur had helped his brother. There are some questions to be raised with this knowledge. Did Arthur pay for lower priced tickets and Ludo upgraded them? Did Ludo pay for the tickets out of his own pocket? Did the tickets even have to be paid for (after all, 3 of the Weasley boys had jobs and thus had their own money)? What exactly was the nature of the favour? The implication is not that Arthur made a consequence go away, but rather helped things so there weren?t greater consequences. Also, is doing these types of favours something Arthur regularly does for people? As for the last question, we know that Arthur rushed to help Moody when he heard there was a problem. Arthur certainly wasn't considering what favours Moody could do for him but rather how he could help smooth things for Moody. In this case it is obvious that Arthur wasn?t trying to hide anything, just limit the damage. So, we know he does smooth things for others without regard to their ability to return the ?favour?. As for the tickets, we don?t know whether Arthur tried to get less expensive seats, more in keeping with what he could afford and those were already sold out. He may have mentioned to those in the office when the World Cup was brought up that he was too late in trying to get the tickets. Now, I've been able to upgrade tickets for a pittance when those expensive seats just haven't sold. It's done all the time, not corruption, just good business sense. This example is one explanation of why it took until a couple of days before the game for Arthur to get those tickets, when the tickets didn?t sell, Ludo told Arthur he could get those seats for the price of the cheaper seats. Thus, Ludo returns the favour but it certainly isn?t corrupt. It also discounts that Arthur did the favour FOR the tickets. Those tickets should have been sold out ages ago. In situations like this, those seats may have been "Ministry" seats much like seats players on a team get, free seats for family and friends. Or, more likely to my mind, Ludo just added 10 extra seats for the Weasleys. We know the Bulgarians wanted 10 extra seats for themselves which may because they found that England had the 10 extra seats that Ludo just put there for the Weasleys. This again would explain why Arthur got those tickets very late. Let's face it, we learned that Bagman didn't have any money so how could he have paid for high priced tickets? While I understand in the reading why you may choose to interpret the situation the way you do, it seems to me that if Arthur was corrupt, he would have done favours to get out of trouble in COS for the Ford Anglia which was of greater consequence and seriousness than upgrades for some tickets. We don't know the full situation with Bagman's brother but if Arthur wasn't going to cover for himself, I doubt he would have covered for some other very serious offence. Besides, Arthur says he smoothed things over, not that he got Otto off the hook, there is a difference. McGonagall did the same for Harry and Ron in COS - they paid the price but not with the added penalty of being expelled. Arthur may have helped to limit the extent of the consequences, not eliminate them. Arthur did a favour for the brother of a co-worker. That co-worker saw that it was in his power to return the favour. That's not corruption, that's helping one another. This situation must be viewed not individually but as a whole with Arthur's behaviour in other situations in order to interpret the actions in an honest light. As I've said before, I'd much rather live in a world where friends and co-workers can help each other out than in one where no one helps because that help will be viewed by others as corruption. Lynn test'; "> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Wed May 11 12:59:25 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 12:59:25 -0000 Subject: FILK: Super-Vicious Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128728 Super-Vicious To the tune of Superstition by Sevvie ? I mean Stevie Wonder Dedicated to Ginger (who keeps us in "super stitches") THE SCENE: The Potions Dungeon. Enter SEVERUS SNAPE SNAPE: Greetings, loyal fans. Perhaps you have been wondering how it is that, year after year, I get away with such blatant emotional abuse of my students ? not to mention my manifest dereliction of duty such as failing to inform my colleagues and superiors when I halted Potter's Occlumency lessons. The answer is quite simple, and is perhaps one you've had occasion to observe in your own place of humble Muggle employment . Little supervision, Dumble's laissez-faire Little supervision, don't have to play fair Thirteen-year old students cower in my class Seven years of bad luck, if OWL exams they pass When you ignore the things that you can't overlook Then they suffer Super-vicious is my way Little supervision, no chain of command Kids are not a problem, that's `cause I'm The Man Harry had these weird dreams, won't empty his mind Who cares if I save him, I won't be fined When you ignore the things that you can't overlook Then it's rougher Super-vicious is my way, yeah, yeah Very superficial performance review Lack of supervision, and so what else is new Thirteen-year old students cower in my class Seven years of bad luck, if OWL exams they pass When you ignore the things that you can't overlook It gets tougher Super-vicious is my way, no, no, no - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with 35 new filks, including seven different versions of "Superstition") From ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com Wed May 11 14:23:07 2005 From: ohneill_2001 at yahoo.com (ohneill_2001) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:23:07 -0000 Subject: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128729 Huntergreen wrote: > Okay, what the heck is that thing? Am I right in saying it hasn't > been mentioned since? Perhaps (and just throwing this out) its the > way the Order members communicate? He did look at it and comment that > Hagrid was late. > Now Cory: Very interesting points about the ages of everybody. I'll ponder all of that and try to respond later. For now, I just wanted to respond to this part. I don't know where the quote appears, but I believe somewhere JKR has told us that Order members have a simple method of communication that requires only the use of their wands. Perhaps someone can provide the quote (or correct me, if I am wrong)? --Cory (who also has not posted in a long time) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 11 15:07:26 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:07:26 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128731 Rebecca: Secondly, I did some basic math with those years and came up with something interesting. According to JKR, Sirius (and by implication, the other three mauraders and Lily and Snape), was 22 at the time Dumbledore said that, which means at the start of Voldemort's rule, they were in their first year at Hogwarts. I guess its pretty obvious, but I had never made that connection before. IMO, this sheds a lot of light on the relationship between Snape and James, and why Sirius made a specific point of mentioning that James hated the dark arts. Alla: Heeee! I am pretty proud of myself for making those connections before, that is why I am so adamant on insisting that animosity between Snape and James/Sirius goes beyond simple hatred of school boys towards each other. I always thought and will continue to think so untill JKR will disillusion me that those fights sort of reflected the situation in the society, the climat outside of Hogwarts, so to speak. Rebecca: Also, this means that Lucius Malfoy was 16 when Voldemort first rose to power, and the other DE's who showed up at the graveyard and the DoM were all most likely still in school as well. Was he already recruiting them? Surely they weren't *already* active DEs, unless they dropped out of school (probably not, since they weren't *open* DEs). Voldemort must not have been as successful as everyone thought then, because it appears all of his original followers either died in prison or were killed before they made it there. Were they the parents of the current DEs? Alla: Now, this is the million dollar question I definitely want an asnwer too. I really, really want to know when Voldemort started recruting for two reasons. I want to know whether Peter indeed was passing information for a year before Potters' death or he was doing it for much longer AND I want to know when Snape was recruited too. It may explain SO many things. As to Lucius Malfoy - well, I won't exclude the possibility that he was recruited at 16. Why not? Just my SPECULATIVE opinion, of course. Alla, who wants to applaud Rebecca for making " eleven years" connection. It is something I never thought of. From cat_kind at yahoo.com Wed May 11 15:40:08 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 15:40:08 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128732 catkind earlier > > Hagrid is good, the Dursleys are bad, therefore it's just fine for > > Hagrid to be nasty to a terrified eleven-year-old boy, whom he's > > never met before, for being fat. > > Valky: > Ughhh Catkind, is that not a nauseatingly lopsidedly politically > correct statement.. ? For the record I think that this particular > scene can hardly undermine the moral message of the books, when it is > in context a no so bright but bighearted (and admittedly burly) oaf of > a man standing for the defense of an oppressed and overwhelmed > innocent against his torturers of a decade of his life. Yeah I think > it goes to Hagrids failings but also to his virtue as he's not by > nature a fighting person, but he'll fight for this cause because he > believes in it, he believes Harry deserves his chance to be great and > have love. catkind now: I'll reply to this point first as it's the easiest. What I mean is, we may know Dudley was oppressing Harry, but all Hagrid's seen is a terrified child. Dudley hasn't said a word in the scene. Hagrid is (rightly) angry with Harry's Aunt and Uncle, and takes it out on Dudley. If Hagrid did somehow know what Dudley's like it would be more excusable, although personally speaking I still find it unpleasant that he takes out his anger on someone who's not caused it, and that he is to some extent descending to their level. I don't think I'm just being PC; although from a PC point of view I think it is still a no-no to be nasty to someone about their weight even if one does think it is due to being a lazy slob. On the other hand, if it's about Dudley oppressing Harry, why bring his size into it? To be honest, the scene made me dislike Hagrid instinctively when I first read it. The rest is rationalization. I'm not saying this particular incident undermines the moral message. You can take it, as you say, as Hagrid doing something wrong out of temper and maybe not being "bright". I rather had the impression we were supposed to be cheering him on. Of course I have no argument that it's great that Hagrid is nice to Harry, and Harry thoroughly deserves it. (I expect most DEs are equally nice to their friends' children, that doesn't mean I like them.) And I'm no Dudley apologist, he's unquestionably a nasty piece of work. Sorry if anyone found my point nauseating, I hope it's less so with explanation :-/ catkind From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed May 11 16:03:45 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:03:45 -0000 Subject: Moral messages Re: The religious content of Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cat_kind" wrote: For example, the Weasleys have seven children and there are seven books because seven is "well known" to be a magical number (seventh son etc.), not because of seven chakras or seven levels of existence and so on. (Okay, and of course there are generally seven years of secondary education in the UK.) Tonks now: OK, now I must add for the record, the number seven is an important number in the Bible. It is not just in magic. And JKR could have started Harry in the equivalent of 7th grade instead of 6th. I don't know how the boarding school system is in the UK. In the US Junior High starts with the 7th grade and it would make more sense to me that a boarding school would also begin then instead of with the 6th grade. But maybe the UK is different. Does the UK consider 6th grade to be part of secondary education, or primary?? Catkind said: For the record, I don't see anything deeply moral or religious in the books so far. So there are good guys and bad guys. This goes for an awful lot of books. To me, the best thing they do morally is to ask questions that get us all thinking about the differences between good and nice, or good and "on our side". I'm not even sure if this was deliberate in the earlier books: Hagrid is good, (etc.) (snip) Tonks now: Hagrid is also referred to as the *keeper of the keys*, a reference IMO to St. Peter who is the *Keeper of the Keys*. I think that JKR chooses her words carefully, and therefore what often go unnoticed are these little symbols. The teaching of DD are very profound words of wisdom as well as moral theology. As I have said before, I think that JKR is writing on multiple levels at one time. Either intentionally or not, it is coming out that way. For those with no religious training it is a nice story about the morality between good and evil. But for those with knowledge of the Christian religion the symbols just scream out at you. And I wonder if that is true for any other religions as well. (I know that someone once wrote a good argument for Harry being the Lamed-Vovnik of the Jewish religion.) I think that the symbols are indeed there, but it is not necessary for someone reading the story to see or understand them in order to both enjoy and get something important out of it. Tonks_op From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 11 16:13:19 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:13:19 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128734 Valky: For the record I think that this particular scene can hardly undermine the moral message of the books, when it is in context a no so bright but bighearted (and admittedly burly) oaf of a man standing for the defense of an oppressed and overwhelmed innocent against his torturers of a decade of his life. Catkind now: What I mean is, we may know Dudley was oppressing Harry, but all Hagrid's seen is a terrified child. Dudley hasn't said a word in the scene. Hagrid is (rightly) angry with Harry's Aunt and Uncle, and takes it out on Dudley. If Hagrid did somehow know what Dudley's like it would be more excusable, although personally speaking I still find it unpleasant that he takes out his anger on someone who's not caused it, and that he is to some extent descending to their level. Alla: Well, I speculated once that Hagrid indeed saw what Dudley did to Harry, because for one reason or another he was substituting for Arabella on her watch. That is why he IS so angry towards Dudley - you know, after maybe witnessing "Harry hunting", or something like that. It IS only speculation on my part, nothing more and most likely wrong, but that is what I think. If it is indeed true, than I not only find Hagrid's reaction to be excusable, but perfectly understandable, since Dudley and the gang indeed caused Harry a lot of grief over those ten years. Catkind: I don't think I'm just being PC; although from a PC point of view I think it is still a no-no to be nasty to someone about their weight even if one does think it is due to being a lazy slob. On the other hand, if it's about Dudley oppressing Harry, why bring his size into it? To be honest, the scene made me dislike Hagrid instinctively when I first read it. The rest is rationalization. I'm not saying this particular incident undermines the moral message. You can take it, as you say, as Hagrid doing something wrong out of temper and maybe not being "bright". I rather had the impression we were supposed to be cheering him on. Alla: Hmmm, I was telling recently someone off list that I still have not figured out exactly what political correctness means and when it is good or bad to be called PC person. If your sincere reaction after reading that scene was instinctive dislike of Hagrid, I can only respect it. On the other hand MY sincere reaction after reading that scene was indeed cheering Hagrid on. Does it mean that I am not being PC here? I am not sure. Am I making sense? I am NOT a skinny person at all and Hagrid reference to Dudley size does not bother me in the slightest, because I just don't think that Hagrid meant to insult Dudley's weight. I get a feeling that Hagrid was indeed defending Harry maybe not the best way, but with the best intentions possible. Catkind: Of course I have no argument that it's great that Hagrid is nice to Harry, and Harry thoroughly deserves it. (I expect most DEs are equally nice to their friends' children, that doesn't mean I like them.) And I'm no Dudley apologist, he's unquestionably a nasty piece of work. Sorry if anyone found my point nauseating, I hope it's less so with explanation :-/ Alla: Right, we agree on it. I just would not go as far as to make a comparison between Hagrid and DE. I think Hagrid is nice to the vast majority of the population and only gets angry when someone hurts his friends. No, I did not find your post to be nauseating at all. :-) Just my opinion and my opinion only of course, Alla From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed May 11 16:14:20 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:14:20 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128735 Just a quick word about Dudley. I think that he represents the sin of gluttony and this is a sign to us about that. He ends up with a pig's tail because as Hagrid said he was already practically there anyway. As to the number 7. There are 7 deadly sins. And this is one of them. I think others are shown as well, but I have not sorted them all out yet. Hagrid zapping Dudley was more than just a big guy taking his anger out on a scared little boy. And I think that Hagrid might well know more than we think that he does about the Dursleys. (but lets not start that fight again.) Tonks_op From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed May 11 16:27:49 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:27:49 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128736 Susan: I think I know just how and when that dragon blood protection came into effect for Harry ? and who was behind it!" "Dumbledore, mightily relieved that Harry had survived the attack, decided to do anything & everything he could to FURTHER protect Harry, because he believed Voldemort to not truly be dead. He had Hagrid pick up Harry from the wreckage and take him to Snape, who applied the ointment. The ointment needed several hours to sink into the blood stream and to become activated there. Once that had happened, Hagrid flew with baby Harry to meet DD at the Dursleys." "AND it explains so much!" says SSSusan. "Why Hagrid defends Snape to the Trio all the time. Why DD trusts Snape. What the missing 24 hours was about. Maybe why Snape is so hateful to Harry. Harry, after all, has NO IDEA what Snape's already done for him, and Snape receives no credit for his efforts. It *might* even explain why Harry was able to hold out against Voldy in the graveyard, mightn't it? The extra protection? Harry's dragon-like ability to hold out against powerful spells? I tell you, DRIBBLE: SHADOWS suits me just fine." Alla: Please forgive me for replying out of TBAY. I love it, but I don't think I will ever master how to write it well enough for my liking I like it and I can buy the assumption that ointment was made from dragon blood and applied during those missing 24 hours. I am just not sure whether this is the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape, or at least the only reason. I absolutely agree though that it can explain perfectly why Hagrid defends Snape to the Trio. Here is my question, if this theory will turn out to be correct? Do you think Voldemort knows or at least suspects about this particular protection? Do you think he knows that eyes are Harry's Achilles Heel for that specific reason? Do you think he knows how to fight Dragon Blood protection? Could it be broken at one point in the books? If it is in Harry's blood permanently though, I guess it truly works as Achilles heel - all parts of Harry's body are protected except his eyes. Alla. From cat_kind at yahoo.com Wed May 11 16:47:05 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:47:05 -0000 Subject: Moral messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128737 > catkind earlier: > > In a slightly tongue-in-cheek attempt to discern moral messages in > > the HP books, I come up with the following: > > Loyalty is good. > > Love is good. > > Prejudice is bad. > > Torturing people is bad. > > (possible exceptions made depending on identity of victim) > > Killing people is bad. > > (possible exceptions made depending on identity of victim) > > Slavery might be bad or not, depending on both slave and master. > > Fun is good. > > > > This really isn't a very impressive list is it? I must have missed > > something. I did honestly try. > > > Valky: > Well I suppose you did try but I think that the meaning of the word > moral isn't really served justice by that list. Sure it ticks the > boxes of basic meaning, but it has a tone of sarcasm that seems to be > directed not at the HP books but at the very notion of morality. > Not that it is so big a thing if that is how you feel then that is > your choice, and then I might also be reading it all wrong and I am > sorry if I did that. > > Anyhow, how about a list of my own? > > Moral messages in Harry Potter: > > Bad is not confined to people with deadly weapons and criminal records. > Good is not confined to people without them. > Truth and honesty are powerful. > When someone is wise it doesn't mean they have all the answers, more > often than not they have the most questions. > Kindness can change somebody's life. > We all make choices. catkind: I am not meaning to be sarcastic about the idea of morality. But I think morality is a subjective thing. Different people have different ideas of what is good or bad. I'm trying to pin down the moral points of view I think are expressed by the HP books, not to find morals in HP that agree with my own world view. Your list seems to me to be more observations on life than what I understand by morals. They are indeed good observations on life, if in some cases somewhat obvious, and I personally agree with them. I understand morals as being ideas of what is right and wrong, good and bad. What would the Ten Commandments of the Potterverse be? Perhaps I misunderstand. Hmm. Regarding your first two points, of course everyone in the wizarding world has a deadly weapon. So we have Snape, who may be good or bad but is presumed to be on our side. I'd say the question of his "goodness" is as yet undecided, to judge by the discussions here. We have Sirius, who may have a criminal record but only due to a miscarriage of justice. We have Umbridge who is on the right side of the law but bad - but actually it turns out she is not on the right side of the law, having illegally sent in dementors, and being prepared to illegally use an unforgiveable curse on a student. Aside from these, it's pretty much criminal records and Dursleys bad, others good. Though by OotP we start to get a bit of good people doing acknowledgedly bad things. Truth and honesty are powerful? I don't see that message very clearly in the books. Our heroes are of necessity very secretive about a lot of things. DD is secretive about lots of things. Harry's father died because a secret was betrayed. Wait - do you mean powerful or good? A lot of the nasty things Draco says are more or less true, and I guess they do have some power to harm. Harry's standing up and truth-telling to Umbridge is of course to be applauded. Can I add repression is bad to my list then? Do you mean DD with someone being wise? He seems to have more answers than questions to me, will have to think more on that one. Kindness. Hmm. Hagrid is kind to Harry, and that definitely improves his life a lot. So as a moral, it is good to be kind to people you meet? That would work. Sirius wasn't kind to Kreacher, and suffered for it. Harry was (debatably) kind to Pettigrew, and it may come to be to his advantage. We all make choices is kind of a truism, isn't it? DD tells Harry that it's his choices that are important. On the other hand, it isn't Harry's choice to be a wizard. Abilities are also important. I'd say the moral questions are more about which is the correct choice to make in a given situation. I'm thinking aloud. Hope I haven't said anything too obviously stupid. catkind (NOT being sarcastic. I try to give it big neon signs when I'm being sarcastic, as my sarcasm often doesn't translate well in print or over the atlantic.) From cat_kind at yahoo.com Wed May 11 16:57:03 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 16:57:03 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128738 Tonks_op: > Just a quick word about Dudley. I think that he represents the sin of > gluttony and this is a sign to us about that. catkind: If you're interested in deadly sins, there are some cool essays on the subject by Pegg Kerr in the files section. I'm not so sure gluttony is a sin in the Potterverse. The first thing Hagrid does to cheer Harry up is feed him sausages and later ice-cream. Hogwarts' feasts are amazing, and there are always desserts, and then there is the sweet-shop. If gluttony is a sin, why all this wonderful food all around? Ron's also quite keen on his dinner if I recall correctly. Or is there a technical definition of gluttony beyond eating lots that I don't know? catkind From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 11 17:06:38 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:06:38 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128739 SSSusan: > > > > I think I know just how and when that dragon blood protection came > > into effect for Harry ? and who was behind it!" > > > "Dumbledore, mightily relieved that Harry had survived the attack, > > decided to do anything & everything he could to FURTHER protect > > Harry, because he believed Voldemort to not truly be dead. He had > > Hagrid pick up Harry from the wreckage and take him to Snape, who > > applied the ointment." > > > "AND it explains so much!" says SSSusan. "Why Hagrid defends Snape > > to the Trio all the time. Why DD trusts Snape. Alla: > I like it and I can buy the assumption that ointment was made from > dragon blood and applied during those missing 24 hours. I am just > not sure whether this is the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape, or at > least the only reason. SSSusan: It wouldn't have to be the only reason, but let me explain why it's *enough* reason for me. This whole scenario would be one in which Snape would be turning against Voldemort, at risk of DEATH for his betrayal. Add to that his willingness to inform DD what he knows and to work with him on a project to PROTECT a man he has despised for years (James), or at least the son of this man. The combination of leaving Voldy, coughing up the details of what Voldy was up to, and being willing to prove his commitment by working on the protective ointment adds up to enough reason for DD to fully trust Snape, for *me* anyway. Alla: > Here is my question.... Do you think Voldemort knows or at least > suspects about this particular protection? Do you think he knows > that eyes are Harry's Achilles Heel for that specific reason? > > Do you think he knows how to fight Dragon Blood protection? Could it > be broken at one point in the books? If it is in Harry's blood > permanently though, I guess it truly works as Achilles heel - all > parts of Harry's body are protected except his eyes. SSSusan: At this point I do *not* think Voldy yet knows... though I believe, whether by chance or by someone's deliberate intention to betray Harry, Voldemort will discover the eye vulnerability. I don't think we know enough about the extent of dragon-blood protection [since this is all made up anyhow ;-)] to know whether Voldy could "break through" it, but my belief is that he will go for the eyes once he knows about that area of vulnerability. Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 11 18:29:37 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 18:29:37 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK/Gluttony Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128740 In message 128733, Tonks wrote: OK, now I must add for the record, the number seven is an important number in the Bible. It is not just in magic. And JKR could have started Harry in the equivalent of 7th grade instead of 6th. I don't know how the boarding school system is in the UK. In the US Junior High starts with the 7th grade and it would make more sense to me that a boarding school would also begin then instead of with the 6th grade. But maybe the UK is different. Does the UK consider 6th grade to be part of secondary education, or primary?? +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Geoff: In message 127769, where we were discussing the transfer age at Hogwarts, I wrote: "Excuse my being pedantic, but large numbers of pupils change schools at 13+ and some at 12+. The percentage of transfers at 11+ is far less than it was in the past. When I started teaching in a UK state secondary school in the 1960s, transfer at 11+ (in the state sector)was almost universal. Followingthe Labour Government's document Circular 10/64 which aimed at making all UK secondary education comprehensive, a large number of Local Education Authorities (LEAs) went for a first/middle/high school structure to replace the infant/junior/secondary layout; for many of them, it kept the costs of converting buildings down. My LEA switched in '69. We then underwent a further change in 1990 when we moved to 12+ as we were transferring Sixth Form pupils to Sixth Form colleges and out of the main schools so that my school then had Years 8-11 only (corresponding to Second up to Fifth Year at Hogwarts)." So, in the UK, schools following the First/Middle/High pattern can change either at Year 4/Year 9 or Year 4/Year 8 while LEAs who stuck with the Ibfant/Junior/Secondary scheme change at Year 4/Year 7. Interestingly, although Hogwarts follows the 11+ transfer age, before the UK started introducing the Middle School concept (as outlined above), many Public schools did transfer at 13+ and therefore didn't match the state system. A further thought. Is the US Grade numbering slightly different to the UK Year? Harry /did/ start Hogwarts in what today is Year 7. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ In post 128738, catkind wrote: I'm not so sure gluttony is a sin in the Potterverse. The first thing Hagrid does to cheer Harry up is feed him sausages and later ice-cream. Hogwarts' feasts are amazing, and there are always desserts, and then there is the sweet-shop. If gluttony is a sin, why all this wonderful food all around? Ron's also quite keen on his dinner if I recall correctly. Or is there a technical definition of gluttony beyond eating lots that I don't know? +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Geoff: I believe there is a subtle difference between the pupils eating well and being gluttons... My dictionary gives definitions as follows: Glutton>noun an excessively greedy eater Gluttony>noun habitual greed or excess in eating I think it's the /excess/ in eating that is the difference. From rxtlc at comcast.net Wed May 11 17:22:12 2005 From: rxtlc at comcast.net (Jenn) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 13:22:12 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128741 This is a lot of fun! 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I'd say, with regret, Lupin. 'Cause I really really want him to live and take care of Harry. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) my first thought has always been Sheamus Finnagan- I think most clues are buried in the Philosopher's Stone 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I really loved the thread a while back that said she was part house- elf! So I'll go with that. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? the lion guy, who is the Heir of Gryffindor. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I'm betting on Luna, if anyone. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Crabbe's dad, the DE 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensive, of course, but I'm not sure to whom it belongs. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, it is amazing what you can do when you are not being hovered over and made nervous. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Alas, no... but Madame Sprout will give him extra lessons 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 9. Predictions: The importance of Harry's eyes will be revealed to be that he sees the world as his mother did, with compassion. The Horned-Toothed snaggle thingie will become an important ally in the fight against LV and thus prove it's existance Neville will be the youngest Herbology professor ever in Hogwarts history Ginny Weasley will be the only one of her family to survive by Book 7 ...That's it, I gotta run, my own Harry is calling for me. Poppy From lhuntley at fandm.edu Wed May 11 18:46:00 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 14:46:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128742 Catkind: > I'm not so sure gluttony is a sin in the Potterverse. The first thing > Hagrid does to cheer Harry up is feed him sausages and later > ice-cream. Hogwarts' feasts are amazing, and there are always > desserts, and then there is the sweet-shop. If gluttony is a sin, why > all this wonderful food all around? Ron's also quite keen on his > dinner if I recall correctly. > > Or is there a technical definition of gluttony beyond eating lots that > I don't know? Geoff: > I believe there is a subtle difference between the pupils eating well > and being gluttons... > > My dictionary gives definitions as follows: > > Glutton>noun an excessively greedy eater > Gluttony>noun habitual greed or excess in eating > > I think it's the /excess/ in eating that is the difference. Excess, but also -- notice how both definitions use the concept of Greed. So, a glutton is someone who eats excessively, but is also obsessive and greedy about it. Thus, Dudley's tendency to take Harry's food, even if it makes him sick (to paraphrase PS/SS). The contrast between Harry's experience of food when he's with the Dursley's vs. when he comes to Hogwarts is very important, IMO. It also sheds a rather positive light on his character -- note how he's *happy* to share the food he gets on the Hogwarts Express with Ron. I think there is a rather interesting (although old) essay at the Lexicon about food in the Potterverse, if you want to look it up. I'm not sure that it deals with gluttony/greed especially, but I remember that is does hit on a lot of interesting themes dealing with food in the books. Laura (noticing that the word "greed" looks very odd indeed after one has typed it six times.) From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed May 11 19:28:48 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 19:28:48 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cat_kind" wrote: If gluttony is a sin, why all this wonderful food all around? Ron's also quite keen on his dinner if I recall correctly. > > Or is there a technical definition of gluttony beyond eating lots that I don't know? Tonks: When I say that Dudley represents the sin of gluttony I am not talking primary of food. Food is there to enjoy just as other things are to enjoy. It is the excesses that make it gluttony. And the main point of Dudley representing gluttony isn't his eating, it is *everything* that he does. He wants more and more. 37 or whatever presents on his birthday aren't enough and he can't be happy with what he has. It is the totality of what Dudley represents in the story. Instead of have one or two presents and being happy because someone loved him enough to give him something, Dudley can't even be happy when he gets more presents than any kid in the whole world would ever get!! Whatever Dudley gets, he wants more, more, more. It's "me, me, me". That is the point of Dudley in this story. He is a role model of what *not* to be. And he even takes Harry's own Birthday cake, without asking, without any manners, etc. He is just being his gluttonous little self, and zap... he get a tail (by JKR). Now I dare folks to say that there is not some sort of symbolism in that, and deliberately so. Tonks_op From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 11 20:32:20 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:32:20 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's morality (wasRe: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128744 >>Valky: >For the record I think that this particular scene can hardly undermine the moral message of the books, when it is in context a no so bright but bighearted (and admittedly burly) oaf of a man standing for the defense of an oppressed and overwhelmed innocent against his torturers of a decade of his life.< Betsy: Except that in order to see Hagrid's attack on Dudley the way you do, Valky, we must take it *out* of context. If we put it back into the surrounding scene Hagrid does not come out well at all, I'm afraid. " 'I AM NOT PAYING FOR SOME CRACKPOT OLD FOOL TO TEACH HIM MAGIC TRICKS!' yelled Uncle Vernon. "But he had finally gone too far. Hagrid seized his umbrella and whirled it over his head, 'NEVER -' he thundered, '- INSULT - ALBUS - DUMBLEDORE - IN - FRONT - OF - ME!' "He brought the umbrella swishing down through the air to point at Dudley - there was a flash of violet light, a sound like a firecracker, a sharp squeal, and the next second, Dudley was dancing on the spot with his hands clasped over his fat bottom, howling in pain." (SS paperback ed. p. 59) So we have a man verbally attack the wizard Hagrid feels a strong allegiance to, and in retaliation Hagrid hits the man's son with a painful and irreversable spell. Frankly, I don't think a Death Eater would have handled things much differently. Especially when you consider that Hagrid's spell went wrong. He'd meant to turn Dudley into a pig, which would have been quite equivilent to killing the boy. A muggle hospital was able to surgically remove the tail - I doubt they could have done anything to turn Dudley back into a boy. (I always found it interesting that the movie version of this scene has Dudley trying to steal some of Harry's cake and bringing down Hagrid's wrath that way. Perhaps the directer felt an unprovoked attack on an already cowering child would not be helpful in establishing Hagrid as one of the good guys?) >>Alla: >Well, I speculated once that Hagrid indeed saw what Dudley did to Harry, because for one reason or another he was substituting for Arabella on her watch. That is why he IS so angry towards Dudley - you know, after maybe witnessing "Harry hunting", or something like that.< Betsy: Except that there's nothing previous to the scene or following the scene to suggest that Hagrid knows *anything* of the treatment Harry has recieved at the hands of the Dursleys, nor how Dudley treats Harry. His very shock that Harry knows nothing about his parents or Hogwarts implies the very opposite. JKR is too good at giving tons of information in a very short amount of space to not give us a tangible hint that Hagrid is aware of Dudley's treatment of Harry. The fact that she gives us nothing suggests to me that it's because there's nothing there to give. >>Alla: >It IS only speculation on my part, nothing more and most likely wrong, but that is what I think. If it is indeed true, than I not only find Hagrid's reaction to be excusable, but perfectly understandable, since Dudley and the gang indeed caused Harry a lot of grief over those ten years.< Betsy: But if Hagrid *is* unaware of Dudley's bullying of Harry (which per canon seems to be the case) then his behavior really has *no* excuse. Which raises an interesting question: why did JKR have one of her main good characters, our inductor to the WW no less, act in such a ruthless manner? I don't buy the idea that JKR doesn't realize that Hagrid is being cruel here. Later on she has him tell Harry the out and out lie that all bad wizards are Slytherins. And it's Hagrid's greed and drunkenness that puts the Stone at risk. (Not to mention Hagrid nearly getting Harry chucked out of Hogwarts all together because of Norbert.) I think JKR is fully aware of the flaws she's piling on to this character. However, I don't think Hagrid is ESE. There's too much good stuff piled on the other side of the scale. Which leaves me still wondering why JKR chose to have Hagrid act in such a manner. >>Catkind: >To be honest, the scene made me dislike Hagrid instinctively when I first read it. The rest is rationalization. >I rather had the impression we were supposed to be cheering him on.< Betsy: Were we? I wonder about that. This scene took me aback too. (Part of the reason the movie scene stood out to me was that I went into the theater wondering how that scene would play to the audience, would folks cheer it on. I was a bit disappointed that the scene was so changed as to completely bypass the issue.) Perhaps children were meant to cheer for Hagrid, but I can't imagine that JKR didn't fully understand that some folks would be find the obviously unprovoked attack a little off-putting. (I'd be interested in hearing from parents how their kids took that scene.) I do like Hagrid. I think he's wonderful to Harry (the photo album of Harry's parents totally melted my heart) and I *do* think he's fully loyal to Dumbledore. But he's definitely a flawed character that does not provide reliable truths and does not always choose the correct course of action. Hagrid should be treated with caution. Betsy From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 11 20:48:17 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:48:17 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128745 >>Rebecca: >Also, this means that Lucius Malfoy was 16 when Voldemort first rose to power, and the other DE's who showed up at the graveyard and the DoM were all most likely still in school as well.< Betsy: But isn't Mr. Nott a great deal older than Lucius? IIRC, JKR said something about that on her website. I'm wondering how you know the ages of the other DEs in the graveyard? Does canon tell us anything? >>Alla: >...I want to know when Snape was recruited too.< Betsy: Well, this is my own little pet theory, but when Snape was saying, "just you wait" (or something like that) to James and Sirius in the pensieve incident in OotP, I think he was speaking of his going off to join Voldemort. And that's why it's Snape's worst memory because he'd been thinking about joining and this scene is when he makes up his mind to go ahead and join. No real canon to back this idea up. Just the thought that Snape was threatening a grand type of revenge only a Death Eater could deliver. Plus, it makes sense that the point where Snape makes the worst decision of his life would rank as one of his worst memories. YMMV, of course. Betsy From feenyjam at msu.edu Wed May 11 21:01:02 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:01:02 -0000 Subject: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128746 HunterGreen said: > I was reading through SS for the first time in awhile, and something struck me. Its mentioned twice that the Voldemort times lasted eleven years. [first was in the above quote, and second when he says "for eleven years I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his proper name: /Voldemort/."]Firstly, I was wondering what exactly marked the beginning of the eleven years. Its so specific, it could have easily been rounded to a decade or ten years, but it wasn't, so it makes me think that Voldemort first "showed his true colors" in a big act, which possibly incited all the fear surrounding him at once rather than little-by-little. People have been afraid to even say his name for eleven years, I wonder what he did that made him so prominent. If there wasn't a big act, but rather a large number of quiet disappearences and rumors, but never anything large to mark a beginning of his "reign", why would Dumbledore be so specific? > Secondly, I did some basic math with those years and came up with something interesting. According to JKR, Sirius (and by implication, the other three mauraders and Lily and Snape), was 22 at the time Dumbledore said that, which means at the start of Voldemort's rule, they were in their first year at Hogwarts. I guess its pretty obvious, but I had never made that connection before. IMO, this sheds a lot of light on the relationship between Snape and James, and why Sirius made a specific point of mentioning that James hated the dark arts. > Also, this means that Lucius Malfoy was 16 when Voldemort first rose to power, and the other DE's who showed up at the graveyard and the DoM were all most likely still in school as well. Was he already > recruiting them? Surely they weren't *already* active DEs, unless > they dropped out of school (probably not, since they weren't *open* > DEs). Voldemort must not have been as successful as everyone thought then, because it appears all of his original followers either died in prison or were killed before they made it there. Were they the parents of the current DEs? > Greenfirespike says: Without doing the math, I have always wondered about when Lucius Malfoy, went to Hogwarts. I have also wondered perpetually about how LV recruited all of the DE's. If we assume that near the end of Tom Riddle's career at Hogwarts he began to use the name LV, then I think we can safely assume that would be the true starting point of LV's evil saga. I have often assumed that LV operated quietly and secretly immediately after graduation from Hogwarts, seeking to improve his skills in the dark arts. I also assume that LV, in order to gain credibility for potential recruits, began to commit certain dark acts while still concealing his identity. It is interesting to note that most of the current DE's were likely to be students during the reign of LV. But IMO there must have been an older generation, and more DE's than have been formally introduced in the books. This makes sense because throughout the series we have heard mention of DE's killed before the fall of LV (during WWI). Perhaps the "11 years" comment refers to this actual time in which LV finally tipped the balance of power towards his army of DE's. Taken in the context that LV began recruiting followers, and committing dark deeds while concealing his identity, he was able to amass a relatively large and loyal following that finally enabled him to publicly defy the Ministry of Magic. Eventually LV and the DE's were able to render the Ministry virtually powerless, and the Order arose as an underground resistance (one hopefully free from the spies saturating the Ministry) (the balance of power favoring LV and his army also helps explain why the Ministry of Magic regressed to a point where people were placed in prison without a trial and unforgivable curses was an acceptable method of fighting any suspected enemy of the Ministry). If the height of LV's reign was occurring during the time Lucisu Malfoy, Snape, James Potter, Lilly, Lupin, and the rest were in school. Perhaps the Order resulted in similar circumstances as Dumbledore's Army did. Furthermore, the conditions during WWI may have been so volatile that young wizards had no choice but to choose a side (something that we may see in HPB also). Thus, if I am following HunterGreen's theory correctly, she is arguing that LV's reign began with one spectacular event, whereby the power of the WW was shifted to LV and the DE's. I argue that LV and the DE's operated initially hid their identities, but left the Dark Mark wherever they committed a crime (dark deed, unforgivable curse, whatever). IMO I think the WW knew that they were under attack, but just didn't know who was responsible. Rumors spread about whom could be responsible; neighbors began to suspect the other, and that good stuff. Then, perhaps in one big moment, LV and the DE's make an attack, something grand, and alter the balance of power to the dark side, finally able to reveal their identities to the WW. Greenfirespike From patientx3 at aol.com Wed May 11 21:07:39 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:07:39 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128747 Betsy: But isn't Mr. Nott a great deal older than Lucius? IIRC, JKR said something about that on her website. I'm wondering how you know the ages of the other DEs in the graveyard? Does canon tell us anything? Rebecca: Of course, the DEs not mentioned might be the older ones, but I wonder why he wouldn't acknowledge the ones he's had the longest? The ones that are mentioned are all ones Sirius mentioned earlier in the book as being part of Snape's 'gang of Slytherins'. So they all had to be in school at the same time as Snape, so they were between the ages of 11 and 18 at the oldest when Voldemort first came to power. I completely agree with you that Snape was probably already being recruited at the time of the pensieve incident. By then Malfoy Sr. would have been out of school, and most likely had already joined Voldemort himself, he probably brought Snape in (just speculation of course, anyone from the 'gang' could have recruited him). -HunterGreen/Rebecca From celletiger at yahoo.com Wed May 11 21:21:40 2005 From: celletiger at yahoo.com (Marcelle) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:21:40 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128748 In message 128733, Tonks wrote: > snip I don't know how the boarding school system is in the UK. In the US Junior High starts with the 7th grade and it would make more sense to me that a boarding school would also begin then instead of with the 6th grade. But maybe the UK is different. Does the UK consider 6th grade to be part of secondary education, or primary?? > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Geoff: > > In message 127769, where we were discussing the transfer age at > Hogwarts, I wrote: > snip > So, in the UK, schools following the First/Middle/High pattern can > change either at Year 4/Year 9 or Year 4/Year 8 while LEAs who stuck with the Ibfant/Junior/Secondary scheme change at Year 4/Year 7. > Interestingly, although Hogwarts follows the 11+ transfer age, before the UK started introducing the Middle School concept (as outlined above), many Public schools did transfer at 13+ and therefore didn't match the state system. > > A further thought. Is the US Grade numbering slightly different to > the UK Year? Harry /did/ start Hogwarts in what today is Year 7. > celletiger here: I have often wondered about the Hogwarts levels and find the explanations from list members of the British boarding school system helpful to make correlations to the US system. So thanks, y'all. To answer Geoff, Harry would have begun Hogwarts in the US 6th Grade - still grammar (elementary) school. Where I'm from, there are no boarding schools and there is no such thing as middle school: We have grammar school from kindergarten (5 years old) through 8th Grade (13 years old) and upon graduating from 8th Grade, we go to high school for 4 years (9th-12th Grade 14-18 years old). There has been an (unfortunate, IMHO) trend in some schools to begin high school with 8th grade instead of 9th grade. It always seemed strange to me that Hogwarts would include 11 year olds with 17 and 18 year olds...I'm not an educator, but certainly some things that are appropriate for older teenagers are not appropriate for 11 year olds? They all share meals together, walk the castle halls, share a common room...its simply foreign to me that Hogwarts throws the students all together. celletiger, who got through 17 years of Catholic education > From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed May 11 21:33:24 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:33:24 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Update! :-) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128749 Hello All, I'm thrilled and gratified that so many people are participating in the HBP prediction contest and thrilled at the high caliber of predictions. (I keep reading predictions and thinking "Wow, I didn't think of that. That's cool!") Until recently, I've been emailing "receipts" to entrants. I'm on vacation right now and am working on the world's slowest dial-up connection. I won't be able to email "receipts" until I get home. I am, however, logging submissions within a day or two, so you won't be penalized if more info is forthcoming from JKR or Bloomsbury. When I get home near the end of May, I'll send confirmations of entry to everyone. Until then, A-LOOOOOOOH-HA! Yours in Potter, TK--TigerPatronus From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed May 11 21:47:48 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:47:48 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest: "DD and HP in forest" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128750 As of 5/12/05, "DD and HP will be in a forest" is no longer a valid prediction. TK -- TigerPatronus From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 11 21:49:19 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 21:49:19 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marcelle" wrote: > In message 128733, Tonks wrote: > > > snip > I don't know how the boarding school system is in the UK. In the US > Junior High starts with the 7th grade and it would make more sense > to me that a boarding school would also begin then instead of with > the 6th grade. But maybe the UK is different. Does the UK consider > 6th grade to be part of secondary education, or primary?? > > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > Geoff: > > > In message 127769, where we were discussing the transfer age at > > Hogwarts, I wrote: > > > snip > > > So, in the UK, schools following the First/Middle/High pattern can > > change either at Year 4/Year 9 or Year 4/Year 8 while LEAs who > stuck with the Ibfant/Junior/Secondary scheme change at Year 4/Year > 7. > > Interestingly, although Hogwarts follows the 11+ transfer age, > before the UK started introducing the Middle School concept (as > outlined above), many Public schools did transfer at 13+ and > therefore didn't match the state system. > > > > A further thought. Is the US Grade numbering slightly different to > > the UK Year? Harry /did/ start Hogwarts in what today is Year 7. celletiger: > I have often wondered about the Hogwarts levels and find the > explanations from list members of the British boarding school system > helpful to make correlations to the US system. So thanks, y'all. > > To answer Geoff, Harry would have begun Hogwarts in the US 6th > Grade - still grammar (elementary) school. > Where I'm from, there are no boarding schools and there is no such > thing as middle school: We have grammar school from kindergarten (5 > years old) through 8th Grade (13 years old) and upon graduating from > 8th Grade, we go to high school for 4 years (9th-12th Grade 14-18 > years old). There has been an (unfortunate, IMHO) trend in some > schools to begin high school with 8th grade instead of 9th grade. > > It always seemed strange to me that Hogwarts would include 11 year > olds with 17 and 18 year olds...I'm not an educator, but certainly > some things that are appropriate for older teenagers are not > appropriate for 11 year olds? They all share meals together, walk > the castle halls, share a common room...its simply foreign to me > that Hogwarts throws the students all together. Geoff: SSSusie also emailed me off-group with similar information. My reply to her was: "Yep, there's one difference in the numbering. Year 11 is the 16+ examination year (Fifth Year in Hogwarts) Years 12/13 are Lower Sixth/Upper Sixth Thanks Geoff" Another difference here is that where there are grammar schools still operating in the UK, they will be for 11+ - 16, Years 7-11 (the old First-Fifth Year). Keep concentrating while you're thinking this one through....... You, at the back there, put that Butterbeer down at once, boy, and pay attention. :-) From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 11 22:44:58 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:44:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128752 SSSusan revives the lost art of TBay: > > "Dumbledore, mightily relieved that Harry had > survived the attack, decided to do anything & everything he could to > FURTHER protect Harry, because he believed Voldemort to not truly be > dead. He had Hagrid pick up Harry from the wreckage and take him to > Snape, who applied the ointment. The ointment needed several hours > to sink into the blood stream and to become activated there. Once > that had happened, Hagrid flew with baby Harry to meet DD at the > Dursleys." > Neri: SSSusan is walking on the beach towards the dock, cooler in hand, when she suddenly steps on something sharp in the sand. "Ouch!" she holds one foot in hand and looks down. "Hey, who's the idiot who left a razor on the beach!" "It's probably Willie's", says Neri, who is just passing on the dock with a pump over his shoulder. "I also step on it from time to time". "Willie?" says SSSusan, puzzled, and looks at the bay. "Not the whale", clarifies Neri, "William of Ockham". "Well, tell him he shouldn't leave razors in the sand!" says SSSusan irritably and wipes a bit of dragon blood from the sole of her foot. "Gee, I hope I didn't catch something". "I doubt it," says Neri helpfully. "He's a Franciscan friar". "So why did I have to step on his razor?" "You probably multiplied assumptions needlessly," says Neri. "Lets see. We already have the "ancient magic" that Lily used, and we have the "ancient magic" that protects dragons. If this is not a coincidence and there's indeed a connection between the two, then the elegant solution would be that they are one and the same. If they are connected but are two different things we run into complications. Such as: what was the magic that saved Harry from Quirrellmort in SS/PS? Was it Lily's sacrifice or Snape's dragon blood ointment? DD said it was Lily's sacrifice that did it, so does this mean the ointment doesn't work? It would be simpler to assume that Snape did finish preparing the ointment before GH, and Lily used it for her spell." Neri From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 11 23:50:45 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 23:50:45 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128753 SSSusan revives the lost art of TBay: > > Neri: > SSSusan is walking on the beach towards the dock, cooler in hand, > when she suddenly steps on something sharp in the sand. > > "Ouch!" she holds one foot in hand and looks down. "Hey, who's the > idiot who left a razor on the beach!" > > "It's probably Willie's", says Neri, who is just passing on the > dock with a pump over his shoulder. "I also step on it from time > to time". > > "Willie?" says SSSusan, puzzled, and looks at the bay. > > "Not the whale", clarifies Neri, "William of Ockham". > > "Well, tell him he shouldn't leave razors in the sand!" says > SSSusan irritably and wipes a bit of dragon blood from the sole of > her foot. "Gee, I hope I didn't catch something". > > "I doubt it," says Neri helpfully. "He's a Franciscan friar". > > "So why did I have to step on his razor?" > > "You probably multiplied assumptions needlessly," says Neri. "Lets > see. We already have the "ancient magic" that Lily used, and we > have the "ancient magic" that protects dragons. If this is not a > coincidence and there's indeed a connection between the two, then > the elegant solution would be that they are one and the same. If > they are connected but are two different things we run into > complications. Such as: what was the magic that saved Harry from > Quirrellmort in SS/PS? Was it Lily's sacrifice or Snape's dragon > blood ointment? DD said it was Lily's sacrifice that did it, so > does this mean the ointment doesn't work? It would be simpler to > assume that Snape did finish preparing the ointment before GH, and > Lily used it for her spell." SSSusan: "Damn! That hurts. "You know, Neri, I realize this is going to sound like a total fabrication, but I actually foresaw this possibility! Which is why I had a tetanus booster and have this handy dandy first aid kit in my cooler!" SSSusan grins as she whips out Neosporin, an Ace bandage & a huge roll of gauze, careful not to knock over the remains in her margarita pitcher. "I really did think someone might suggest this possibility. And I really DO love elegant solutions. I've always said JKR will end the series in some elegantly simple way, you know.... Anyway, you're right ? it *is* more plausible that Snape got the ointment ready in time and Lily used it. But, darn it! Then I don't have an answer for the missing 24 hours, and I really wanted to fit that in, too. "So... let me take you and ol' William (and his $!@#*&!# razor) and accept your simplification. YOU wanna take on the 24 hours, then, Neri? Hmmm??" SSSusan smiles sweetly and waits, hopefully, for Neri's response. Siriusly Snapey Susan From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu May 12 01:05:43 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:05:43 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128754 Catkind: What I mean is, we may know Dudley was oppressing Harry, but all Hagrid's seen is a terrified child. Dudley hasn't said a word in the scene. Hagrid is (rightly) angry with Harry's Aunt and Uncle, and takes it out on Dudley. If Hagrid did somehow know what Dudley's like it would be more excusable, although personally speaking I still find it unpleasant that he takes out his anger on someone who's not caused it, and that he is to some extent descending to their level. Betsy: Except that in order to see Hagrid's attack on Dudley the way you do, Valky, we must take it *out* of context. If we put it back into the surrounding scene Hagrid does not come out well at all, I'm afraid. " 'I AM NOT PAYING FOR SOME CRACKPOT OLD FOOL TO TEACH HIM MAGIC TRICKS!' yelled Uncle Vernon. "But he had finally gone too far. Hagrid seized his umbrella and whirled it over his head, 'NEVER -' he thundered, '- INSULT - ALBUS - DUMBLEDORE - IN - FRONT - OF - ME!' "He brought the umbrella swishing down through the air to point at Dudley - there was a flash of violet light, a sound like a firecracker, a sharp squeal, and the next second, Dudley was dancing on the spot with his hands clasped over his fat bottom, howling in pain." (SS paperback ed. p. 59) So we have a man verbally attack the wizard Hagrid feels a strong allegiance to, and in retaliation Hagrid hits the man's son with a painful and irreversable spell. Valky: Yeah I see the point that you have made Betsy and Catkind, When I said context I was more alluding to the greater context of the story rather than the scene, but I guess I kind of assumed that Dudley had mouthed off at some stage during the night as well, I suppose I should reread the passage before I mouth off, hey ;D In any case I don't see what all the fuss is about turning Dudders into a pig, Its not that vicious, and it's not really an attack on him being 'Fat' at all. What had ever happened to poor little Dudders before this night that could even vaguely prove that he wouldn't benefit from a discipline in what he's become? To be quite frank, why shouldn't we cheer Hagrid on, where else is Dudley going to get a healthy lesson in humility? he's done him a favour IMO. But I am pretty sure neither of you will agree with that at all, so I'm not arguing it just stating that this is in part my veiw of the scene. In this way the attack is upon Vernon, where it counts, believe it or not, The hip pocket. As to wondering how they could pay for Dudley to be restored back after being turned into a pig, well they'd have to go to Diagon Alley wouldn't they or ask Albus (AKA crackpot) to help them, which he of course would do. It wasn't going to be entirely irreversible I am sure, OTOH it panned out neatly because it cost Vernon a packet anyhow. Serve him right! And it wasn't all that much a harm to Dudley. Catkind: I don't think I'm just being PC; although from a PC point of view I think it is still a no-no to be nasty to someone about their weight even if one does think it is due to being a lazy slob. On the other hand, if it's about Dudley oppressing Harry, why bring his size into it? To be honest, the scene made me dislike Hagrid instinctively when I first read it. The rest is rationalization. Alla Hmmm, I was telling recently someone off list that I still have not figured out exactly what political correctness means and when it is good or bad to be called PC person. If your sincere reaction after reading that scene was instinctive dislike of Hagrid, I can only respect it. On the other hand MY sincere reaction after reading that scene was indeed cheering Hagrid on. Does it mean that I am not being PC here? I am not sure. Valky: On the issue of Political Correctness, Alla I think it essentially a good, but like all human things is flawed and corruptible. Like another poster has noted, Umbridge is very much an example of the corruptibility of P.C. Now I really wasn't trying to accuse Catkind of corrupting the notion of Poltically Correct, really. However I did feel that the breakdown of the situation was lopsidedly P.C. because it assumed that Dudley should be protected from his 'Fatness',the whole fact is he is already protected from his Fatness by his parents and that in turn this protection is the more destructive influence on his life, this is where P.C. can fail, as pointed out by the character of Umbridge pressing to her students that the *only* way to defend aginst Dark Arts is negotiation and diplomacy. Clearly this veiwpoint gives no recognition to the fact that a killer like Voldemort could not respond to tact unless it suited his purpose which in turn brings the diplomat down to his level. The Moral message there is that there is a [good] time to fight. So fighting isn't quintessentially Bad, just as giving a child a pigs tail isn't quintessentially bad. Tonks When I say that Dudley represents the sin of gluttony I am not talking primary of food. Food is there to enjoy just as other things are to enjoy. It is the excesses that make it gluttony. And the main point of Dudley representing gluttony isn't his eating, it is *everything* that he does. He wants more and more. 37 or whatever presents on his birthday aren't enough and he can't be happy with what he has. It is the totality of what Dudley represents in the story. Geoff: > I believe there is a subtle difference between the pupils eating well and being gluttons... > > My dictionary gives definitions as follows: > > Glutton>noun an excessively greedy eater > Gluttony>noun habitual greed or excess in eating > > I think it's the /excess/ in eating that is the difference. Laura : Excess, but also -- notice how both definitions use the concept of Greed. So, a glutton is someone who eats excessively, but is also obsessive and greedy about it. Thus, Dudley's tendency to take Harry's food, even if it makes him sick (to paraphrase PS/SS). The contrast between Harry's experience of food when he's with the Dursley's vs. when he comes to Hogwarts is very important, IMO. It also sheds a rather positive light on his character -- note how he's *happy* to share the food he gets on the Hogwarts Express with Ron. Valky: I really like the point that Tonks makes about the Gluttony of Dudley, he is over-indulged to a level that you could only call disgusting. I am a strong believer that this does more harm than good, and I think Tonks, Geoff and Laura sum up nicely what I mean by saying that. Dudley suffers so far as to fear allowing Harry to eat even when he [Dudley] is beyond full. This is a tragedy in my opinion, Dudley has no faith in himself, he suffers constantly with feelings of inadequacy through the actions of his parents. So much so that he fears even that which is not a threat to his value as their child, namely Harry. Its virtual paranoia and he is without the tools to nurture beyond it. When Hagrid gives him a tail, he comes rather the closest he has in canon to having to accept himself and develop courage and self discipline, unfortunately his parents mollycoddle him and indulge him back to his apathetic former self, but the experience I believe will prove to have been worth its weight in gold. The Moral message there is good comes from inside and is not guaranteed by the amount of good that is put in from the outside. Valky From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 11 20:34:31 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Chris Whittaker) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 20:34:31 -0000 Subject: HBP deluxe edition cover Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128755 Hi all! Wizard News (http://www.wizardnews.com/story.20050511.html has a picture and short discription of the new artwork for the HBP deluxe edition. It shows Harry and DD in a forest (The Forbidden Forest?) Also,HPANA (http://hpana.com/imageviewer.cfm?nid=18589&f=hbp-deluxe- cover.jpg)has a high res version of it. I wonder what DD and Harry would be doing in the Forbidden Forest? Comments? Discussion? Flowerchild4 From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu May 12 02:04:36 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 02:04:36 -0000 Subject: Moral messages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128756 > - catkind: I am not meaning to be sarcastic about the idea of > morality. But I think morality is a subjective thing. Different > people have different ideas of what is good or bad. I'm trying to > pin down the moral points of view I think are expressed by the HP > books, not to find morals in HP that agree with my own world view. > > Your list seems to me to be more observations on life than what I > understand by morals. They are indeed good observations on life, if > in some cases somewhat obvious, and I personally agree with them. I > understand morals as being ideas of what is right and wrong, good > and bad. What would the Ten Commandments of the Potterverse be? > Perhaps I misunderstand. > Valky: I see what you are saying about morality, and you can probably guess that I don't think its subjective at all. The subjective morality IMO is not really morality but rather is a form of rhetorical distrust of morality itself. Thats a rather complex debate so maybe we shouldn't get into it right now since I really should study for exams, you're welcome to keep it in mind and question me on it when I have more time though. As you say you understand morals as ideas of right and wrong, I guess thats where we essentially differ as I understand morals to be something of a maxim though that is only one interpretation of the word it is reflected in my list which as you say seems to rather be an observation on life. Catkind: > Hmm. Regarding your first two points, of course everyone in the > wizarding world has a deadly weapon. Valky: Well not really I think, because it is the spell that is the deadly weapon, not the wand. Not everyone possesses the spell. Catkind: > So we have Snape, who may be > good or bad but is presumed to be on our side. I'd say the question > of his "goodness" is as yet undecided, to judge by the discussions > here. We have Sirius, who may have a criminal record but only due to > miscarriage of justice. We have Umbridge who is on the right side of > the law but bad - but actually it turns out she is not on the right > side of the law, having illegally sent in dementors, and being > prepared to illegally use an unforgiveable curse on a student. > Aside from these, it's pretty much criminal records and Dursleys > bad, others good. Though by OotP we start to get a bit of good > people doing acknowledgedly bad things. > Valky: Ok, but on Snape I haven't claimed in my point that he is good, how I think it relates to Snape is that good is not beyond him even with his criminal record. The contrasts of Sirius - Umbridge and Barty Crouch Jr are more striking however to me because they make the point that saying.. good is no criminal record bad is a criminal record good is diplomacy bad is a lack of diplomacy are contradictory to themselves. Bad is capable of diplomacy and avoiding a criminal record too. Good is not always perfectly diplomatic but it is good. Catkind: > Truth and honesty are powerful? I don't see that message very > clearly in the books. Our heroes are of necessity very secretive > about a lot of things. DD is secretive about lots of things. Harry's > father died because a secret was betrayed. Wait - do you mean > powerful or good? A lot of the nasty things Draco says are more or > less true, and I guess they do have some power to harm. Harry's > standing up and truth-telling to Umbridge is of course to be > applauded. Can I add repression is bad to my list then? > Valky: I think the power of truth and honesty may yet be seen in more vivid colour in the books. But as we haven't got that to go on, the best points that I think go to that are that Harry shakes of the Imperius with honesty, and that the truth and truth telling in the books have made huge impact on the plot. Ginny never revealed her truth to anyone, although she knew she was in danger, and this impacted on the school in a great way, Sirius told his truth to Harry about Peter Pettigrew and the GH events which again was more powerful than all the expelliarmus spells that had be thrown around the Shrieking Shack combined, it was the truth that saved Sirius' life and restored to Harry a loving family of his own (if even for only a short while). Catkind: > Do you mean DD with someone being wise? He seems to have more > answers than questions to me, will have to think more on that one. > Valky: Fair enough that you need to think more on that. I also meant that when Harry turns to Sirius for wisdom, and Sirius tries to be forthcoming with his best wisdom, he asks Harry a bunch of questions instead of giving answers. Naturally I did mean DD too, and he does seem to embody wisdom in the series yet he claims to know not very much at all, except that he needs to keep asking questions about it (think silver instruments). Catkind: > Kindness. Hmm. Hagrid is kind to Harry, and that definitely > improves his life a lot. So as a moral, it is good to be kind to > people you meet? That would work. Sirius wasn't kind to Kreacher, > and suffered for it. Valky: I was really alluding to the house elves story here, Dobby's life is changed by Harry's kindness while the point that you made about Sirius and Kreacher proves that Kindness is a life changing thing. I guess I could say Kindness is good, but that would be incorrect, as Hermione's position with the house elves is debatable and may not change their life for the good. In terms of good and bad I think it would be right to say that good is like kindness, but kindness not like good. Catkind: > We all make choices is kind of a truism, isn't it? DD tells Harry > that it's his choices that are important. On the other hand, it > isn't Harry's choice to be a wizard. Abilities are also important. > I'd say the moral questions are more about which is the correct > choice to make in a given situation. > Valky: I again see what you're saying but still have something to add there. Yeah I kind of threw in the choices remark as a truism, so it's only fair to clarify my position as to how it relates to a moral lesson. Since I am running right out of time it will have to be brief. We all make choices, and it is good to recognise this, denying this is bad. From noesumeragi at yahoo.es Wed May 11 22:29:06 2005 From: noesumeragi at yahoo.es (noesumeragi) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:29:06 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128757 As everybody is doing this, here is my part... :) > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? hummm... in HBP, I vote for Draco. I don't remember if Rowling said especifically that he/she would be a *good guy* character... But Draco is a *major* character, more than Sirius, IMHO. Dumbledore is doomed but in the seventh book. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Salazar Slytherin. Would be fitting, and Voldemort-like. (And harry- like, too... :) > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She had done *something*/or *seen* something (like a seer), so she knew that if she was killed, Harry would be protected by her love. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis... who is also the lion-guy and the new DADA teacher! > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody? Lets hope... > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Dunno. Someone from the Wizengamot, but not Dumbledore. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. Really I think so, but *not* Dumbledore's. This one is too big... > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course!!!! The books would not be the same if Snape doesn't teach Harry. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? no. He will get an A or an E, never an O. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Potions, Care of Magical Creatures, Charms, DADA, Transfigurations and Divination. 6 in total. > 1. I'm *sure* we are going to learn something more about the founders. I really hope for more about Salazar and Godric's relationship. > 2. We are going to learn more about the infamous prank against Snape. And maybe we'll know more about those years when the marauders, Lily and Snape were Hogwarts' students, and Voldemort was at the hight of his power. > 3. The Order will move its Heartquarters. No more Grimmauld place. > 4. The other magical beings will be important, we will see werewolves, giants, goblings, elves, centaurs and such taking part in the upcoming war. > 5. The DA will continue, but now openly. However, any slytherin will join. noesumeragi From skater314159 at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 12 00:31:02 2005 From: skater314159 at yahoo.co.uk (Megan) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 00:31:02 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128758 cat_kind wrote: > If gluttony is a sin, why all this wonderful food all around? > Ron's also quite keen on his dinner if I recall correctly. > > Or is there a technical definition of gluttony beyond eating lots > that I don't know? skater314159 now: This reminds me of a story one of my professors/Rabbis told me where he said "Think of life as a banquet - there are all sorts of food on the table... the only setback is that there are only utensils with six foot handles! People who are greedy and think only of themselves sit and complain that they can't feed themselves while those who share and think of others feed their neighbors with their fork and have their neighbors feed them". I think Dudley is a "glutton" because he often had the most and the best when Harry was right beside him and was being treated badly by Petunia and Vernon... he could (should?) have shared or spoken up when he saw that he was getting treated better than Harry unfairly. But he chose not to speak up; I think he really *enjoyed* being treated better. I think what makes Dudley (and others) a "glutton" is that he wants the best for himself, he doesnt share, he doesn't question inequality, and he thinks he *deserves* being coddled simply because of who he is. I think to not be a glutton, one should look at those with less and see that could be them under different circumstances, and then help them out. It seems not to be just about food/eating. But that is just my thinking. Skater314159 From hambtty at triad.rr.com Thu May 12 01:43:46 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:43:46 -0000 Subject: Choose right over what is easy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128759 DD tells all gathered in the Great Hall at the end of GOF "...we are all facing dark and difficult times ....remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldermort. Remember Cedric Diggory". Why use the phrase "strayed across the path of LV"? Is it to point out that Cedric was not prepared for battle? Why does he point out Cedric was good, kind and brave? It doesn't matter how good, kind or brave we are, it matters how prepared we are? Up to this point DD has been teaching Harry lessons in modern-day Stoic philosophy - learn to use reason over emotion. LV taps into emotion and uses it against his foes. In this speech isn't DD calling for all to use emotion - the very thing that gives LV power? I'm confused. Olive H. From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 01:49:39 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 01:49:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128760 Alla: Here is my question.... Do you think Voldemort knows or at least suspects about this particular protection? Do you think he knows that eyes are Harry's Achilles Heel for that specific reason? SSSusan: At this point I do *not* think Voldy yet knows... though I believe, whether by chance or by someone's deliberate intention to betray Harry, Voldemort will discover the eye vulnerability. Bookworm: If you think about it, *we* don't know about Harry's vulnerability ? at least not through the books. The only way we know Harry's eyes are vulnerable is through interviews. If SSSusan is correct that dragon's blood is the basis of Harry's protection, then Voldemort doesn't have to learn about Harry's eyes ? he just has to hear about the dragon's blood. I'm sure he could figure it out from there. Ravenclaw Bookworm From marilynpeake at cs.com Thu May 12 03:04:56 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 03:04:56 -0000 Subject: Moral Messages and Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128761 Hi, everyone, I'm new to this group. Reading through some of the recent posts, I was fascinated by the thread about moral messages and Hagrid. I'd like to join the discussion. What I absolutely love about the Harry Potter books is that J.K. Rowling writes them as though the wizard and muggle worlds are real, as though Harry Potter is a real boy and a real wizard. For me, this puts Hagrid into context. He is simply a flawed character, like many adults in the real world. When Hagrid was first introduced, I found him unsettling, almost like an alcoholic with a bad temper. But, little by little, we see that Hagrid is so much more than his flaws; and that the love he feels for Harry, as well as for animals, is what makes him a better person than he might otherwise be. After he gives Dudley a pig's tail, Hagrid says, "Shouldn'ta lost me temper ..." Hagrid has some sense that he is flawed. He is not a great or wise person like Professor Dumbledore. I think that the genius of the Harry Potter books is that they do more than simply present good vs. evil in simplistic terms to children. I think that the Harry Potter series presents layers of good vs. evil to children, in the way that good and evil truly exist in the real world. Talk about shades of gray! It isn't always the hardworking man in the suburban house (Mr. Dursley, described by J.K. Rowling as "... the director of a firm called Grunnings") who is good. It isn't always his dutiful wife who is good, either. On the other hand, evil doesn't always come dressed in black cloaks. Good and evil are more complicated than that. As children read Harry Potter for the adventure and for the fantastical elements such as "Platform Nine and Three-Quarters", "Bertie Bott's Every Flavor Beans", "Chocolate Frogs", and unicorns, they're absorbing the intricacies of real world good and real world evil. To quickly introduce myself - I'm the author of three children's fantasy adventure novels, I have a Master of Arts in Clinical Psychology and, prior to becoming a writer, worked as a Staff Psychologist. My web site is: http://www.marilynpeake.com . When I read, I have to admit, I tend to analyze books and characters on a psychological level. Cheers, Marilyn Peake ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 03:08:14 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 03:08:14 -0000 Subject: Chapter Fourteen of HBP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128762 lupinlore wrote: However, I've been reminded that the chapter entitled "Felix Felicis" is numbered Chapter 14. Chapter Fourteen is awfully late to be introducing the new DADA teacher. Hickengruendler: Mad-Eye Moody, Dolores Umbridge and Gilderoy Lockhart (therefore all DADA teachers who had chapters named after them) all were introduced in a chapter before the one named after them. Professor Umbridge is the 12th chapter of OotP and Mad-Eye Moody the 13th of GoF. Therefore it's not totally impossible that this time chapter 14 is named after the DADA teacher. SSSusan: I agree with Hickengruendler. If we consider think that a *lot* will potentially be happening in the summer, I don't think Chapter 14 is too late. Bookworm: Let's look at this scientifically : Book 1: Snape makes his dramatic entrance in "The Potions Master" Ch 8 of 17 (47% - almost half-way through the book). Book 2: We see Lockhart at Hogwarts in "Gilderoy Lockhart" Ch 6 of 18 (33%). Book 3: We see Lupin in class in "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" Ch 7 of 22 (32%). [I find it interesting that there is no chapter named after him.] Book 4: Mad-eye Moody makes his teaching debut in "The Unforgivable Curses" Ch 14 of 37 (38%). Book 5: We see Umbridge in class in "Detention with Dolores" Ch 13 of 38 (34%). Book 6: "Felix Felicis" is Ch 14 of ? Book 1: 309 pp/17 Ch = 18.2 pages per chapter Book 2: 341 pp/18 Ch = 18.9 Book 3: 435 pp/22 Ch = 19.8 Book 4: 734 pp/37 Ch = 19.8 Book 5: 896 pp/38 Ch = 23.6 Average pages per chapter (2715 pp/ 132 Ch) = 20.6 So using the average, in book 6, chapter 14 will start on about page 288 (total 672 pages) or 43% of the way through the book. If we use an average of 19 pages per chapter (the average for books 1-4), then chapter 14 will start about page 266, or 40% of the way through the book. This is later than we see the DADA professor in the classroom in books 2-5 (not much later than book 4), but earlier than book 1. So my conclusion is that it is not definite that Felix Felicis is the new DADA teacher, but IMO, it is highly likely :-) I'd ask the rhetorical question of who the new DADA is, but IIRC, none of them have been even mentioned before the book they took the post, so I doubt we have any other clues/hints. Ravenclaw Bookworm From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 12 03:59:15 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 03:59:15 -0000 Subject: Choose right over what is easy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: >....remember, if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy, remember what happened to a boy who was good, and kind, and brave, because he strayed across the path of Lord Voldermort. Remember Cedric Diggory". > (snip> Up to this point DD has been teaching Harry lessons in modern- day Stoic philosophy - learn to use reason over emotion. LV taps into > emotion and uses it against his foes. In this speech isn't DD calling for all to use emotion - the very thing that gives LV power? I'm confused. Tonks: I think that the lesson DD is giving us here is that we need to remember the innocent victims of evil. Evil in one form or another is all around us. We can stumble upon it anywhere. Often we are in circumstances where we might see or be a part of an act of evil, no matter how small. The easy thing is to say nothing, to go along with the crowd, to turn ones head, and so on. That is what DD is telling us. Don't be apathetic to evil, don't turn your back. What happens to any of us happens to all of us. As the author of "For Whom the Bell Tolls" said "never seek to know for whom the bell tolls it tolls for thee". Therefore do something. Speak up, act to stop it, do what you can even thought it is very difficult. And I think that it also means "do what is right even if it means losing your own life". Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 12 04:22:32 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:22:32 -0000 Subject: HBP deluxe edition cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris Whittaker" wrote: It shows Harry and DD in a forest (The Forbidden Forest?) > I wonder what DD and Harry would be doing in the Forbidden Forest? > One of the news articles called it a glen. My first impression was GH and trees have grown up over it. Could be somewhere around the Black family home, the Malfoy home, the Riddle house. Or maybe the FF. The forest could hold many secrets, it is that sort of place. It could also be the Shreaking Shack. There are just too many posibilites to figure this one out, IMO. Tonks_op From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Thu May 12 04:52:23 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 04:52:23 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128765 > SSSusan: > "Damn! That hurts. > > "You know, Neri, I realize this is going to sound like a total > fabrication, but I actually foresaw this possibility! Which is why > I had a tetanus booster and have this handy dandy first aid kit in > my cooler!" > > SSSusan grins as she whips out Neosporin, an Ace bandage & a huge > roll of gauze, careful not to knock over the remains in her > margarita pitcher. > > "I really did think someone might suggest this possibility. And I > really DO love elegant solutions. I've always said JKR will end the > series in some elegantly simple way, you know.... Anyway, you're > right ? it *is* more plausible that Snape got the ointment ready in > time and Lily used it. But, darn it! Then I don't have an answer > for the missing 24 hours, and I really wanted to fit that in, too. > > "So... let me take you and ol' William (and his $!@#*&!# razor) and > accept your simplification. YOU wanna take on the 24 hours, then, > Neri? Hmmm??" > > SSSusan smiles sweetly and waits, hopefully, for Neri's response. > Neri: Hey, you should know that Theory Bay is a dangerous place. At least no one is after you with a big paddle. I still have a half-sunk ship of myself to float, and it doesn't look like I'll manage it before hurricane Jo comes to visit. So what can I say about the 24 hrs? They always seemed superfluous and inelegant to me. Why do we need them at all? Maybe they were just an excuse for Uncle Vernon to see wizards and owls and hear things about the Potters before DD enters left stage. But JKR said she rewrote this chapter so many times, so there's has to be more to it. So what do we know about the 24 hrs? I once decided to write my own copy of "The Fully-Annotated Harry Potter". I actually made it all the way to the end of the first chapter of the first book . Aha, here it is. I knew it would come handy one day. So what can we tell from Ch. 1? A) DD didn't meet Hagrid, or even had a chance to communicate with him in detail during the 24hrs, because when Hagrid appears at the Dursleys' he has to tell DD where he got the motorcycle and that he didn't have problems taking Harry out of the house. Unless they're both putting a show, of course, but for whom? For McGonagall? Besides, Hagrid isn't good at this kind of stuff. B) Yet DD did know that Hagrid was bringing Harry, so either he did have some brief communication with Hagrid, or he saw it in this mysterious watch of him. He looks at his watch and says "Hagrid late". The watch has twelve hands and tiny planets around the edge, and in the Potterverse planets tells about destiny. C) Yet we know that Hagrid either communicated with or met McGonagall during the few hours after the Potter's house collapsed, because she admitted he told her where she can find DD, and she was already waiting near the Dursleys' house in the morning. This means that very early in the morning Hagrid already knew he has to bring Harry to the Dursleys. D) But why did she have to wait there the whole day? Either Hagrid failed to tell her he'll be there only late in the evening, or he didn't know himself when he'll be there (at least he didn't know in the morning when he told her). This suggests that he communicated with DD during the day. E) During these 24 hrs DD placed on Harry the blood protection charm that Petunia sealed by taking Harry. This sounds like he had Harry with him (a slight problem with A) unless he can perform this charm from a distance, or unless merely putting the baby on the Dursleys' doorstep consists of the whole charm, which would be slightly disappointing. F) By the morning the whole WW already know that there was an attack on the Potters, that there was something with their son Harry, and that Voldy lost his powers. Well the third one isn't such a big mystery, I guess, because all these imperioed Wizards probably came back, or there were other indications that Voldy's powers broke. Still, someone seemed to come out very early with the news, and DD is the main suspect. G) We also know that DD had corresponded with Petunia before, but it doesn't look like he did during the 24hrs, because Petunia was in a very good mood when Vernon was back from work. So, here is one scenario that would fit: 1. Hagrid is sent by DD and takes Harry out of the wreckage. He borrows the motorcycle from Sirius. Then he gets a birdie from DD that he has to deliver Harry to the Dursleys', but first he has to leave him somewhere else. How about Hogwarts? He leaves Harry for DD there but doesn't actually meet DD (keeping with A). Then McGonagall, who has no idea where's DD and what's happening, corners Hagrid and he lets out (as usual) that DD will be at Number 4 Privet Drive, but not when or why. In the meantime DD had already sent many owls with the news of what happened in GH, and now he takes Harry to place the protection charm over him. When he's through with this, he leaves Harry with someone and goes to do something else, while Hagrid comes to pick Harry (still keeping with A) and delivering him to the Dursley's. They passed over Bristol in the way. Hmmm, elegant it most definitely ain't, and there's too many somewheres, someones and somethings, but I think I didn't make any superfluous assumptions . Here's a slightly simpler scenario: 2. Hagrid is sent by DD and takes Harry out of the wreckage. He borrows the motorcycle from Sirius. Then he gets a birdie from DD that he has to deliver Harry to the Dursleys', but in the meantime he has to wait with him somewhere else. During this wait McGonagall calls Hagrid, and he tells her that DD will be at Number 4 Privet Drive, but not when and why. In the meantime, DD at Hogwarts watches green smoke coming out of silvery instruments, and carefully mixes the essence of Harry with the essence of Petunia (or whatever). When he's through with this (no way to know how long it takes; could be enough to justify any part of the 24 hrs) he sends a birdie to Hagrid to bring Harry to the Dursleys', and apparates there himself. Still far from elegant, but JKR said Ch.1 wasn't the best thing she wrote because she needed to tell a lot but hide even more. She had to introduce us to the Dursleys and several wizards, tell us about the Potters, that Harry was delivered and that he had a scar. We already know she had to hide what exactly happened in GH, that DD placed a charm on Harry, that he communicated with Petunia before and that there's a story about Sirius. The question is, is this enough to justify 24hrs, or are there additional things she haven't told us yet? And if there are, how can they make scenarios 1 or 2 more elegant? Neri From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 12 06:44:33 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 06:44:33 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128766 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Megan" wrote: skater314159: > This reminds me of a story one of my professors/Rabbis told me where > he said "Think of life as a banquet - there are all sorts of food on > the table... the only setback is that there are only utensils with six foot handles! People who are greedy and think only of themselves sit and complain that they can't feed themselves while those who share and think of others feed their neighbors with their fork and have their neighbors feed them". Geoff: This is also a well-known story in Christian circles and is used as a description of the difference between Hell and Heaven. Our version runs like this: A man was taken by an angel to visit Hell and Heaven. When he visited Hell, he found that the residents were sitting at well-laden tables with six-foot long knives and forks which they had to use; they were all looking very sad and gloomy because they were unable to feed themselves. Then he visited Heaven and found a similar scenario but the residents appeared to be cheerful and well. On asking the angel why this was so, he was told, "Well, in Heaven, those present succeed by feeding each other." From cat_kind at yahoo.com Thu May 12 08:13:43 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:13:43 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128767 > Betsy: > So we have a man verbally attack the wizard Hagrid feels a strong > allegiance to, and in retaliation Hagrid hits the man's son with a > painful and irreversable spell. > > > Valky: > In any case I don't see what all the fuss is about turning Dudders > into a pig, Its not that vicious, and it's not really an attack on him > being 'Fat' at all. What had ever happened to poor little Dudders > before this night that could even vaguely prove that he wouldn't > benefit from a discipline in what he's become? To be quite frank, why > shouldn't we cheer Hagrid on, where else is Dudley going to get a > healthy lesson in humility? he's done him a favour IMO. But I am > pretty sure neither of you will agree with that at all, so I'm not > arguing it just stating that this is in part my veiw of the scene. > > In this way the attack is upon Vernon, where it counts, believe it or > not, The hip pocket. catkind: Okay, even supposing Hagrid does know what Dudley is, this argument doesn't really work, because Dudley doesn't know he knows. If Hagrid said "let this teach yer a lesson, pickin' on poor 'Arry like tha'!" then Dudley might indeed get said lesson. As it is he's terrified for the whole scene, he's hiding behind his parents, he's not showing any kind of lack of humility, or gluttony (well, he twitched at the sight of some sausages, but then even Harry is canonically starving by this point, and Harry isn't used to eating as much as Dudley), and for him the punishment comes totally out of the blue. Dudley certainly needs to be taught a lesson, but I think the only lesson he's learned here is that wizards are powerful and frightening. It has to come over to Dudley as an attack on his weight, doesn't it? Hagrid's calls him "yer great lump", tells Vernon "Yer great puddin' of a son don' need fattenin' anymore, Dursley, don' worry," and then gives him a pig's tail. I don't think Dudley feels the attack is on his father's wallet. Given their over-fondness for Dudley, I don't think even Vernon does. Admittedly it probably doesn't take much to have Dudley "howling in pain", but then there's the humiliation factor, plus the sheer horror of the whole idea of being physically changed like that. > Valky: > I really like the point that Tonks makes about the Gluttony of Dudley, > he is over-indulged to a level that you could only call disgusting. I > am a strong believer that this does more harm than good, and I think > Tonks, Geoff and Laura sum up nicely what I mean by saying that. catkind: Thanks to Tonks, Geoff and Laura for the definitions of gluttony. So we have two ideas - greed, and excess. How do we define excess? Eating so much that it's bad for your health? That line would be crossed long before Dudley's state. In my moral code that's stupid, but bears its own punishment. I guess religious people are more likely to rate it morally wrong, as your body is a gift from the gods etc. Greed - okay, so greediness is about wanting things for yourself and taking them away from others. This breaks all sorts of other rules about manners and fair play and bullying too. I'm still not entirely sure where the sin lies with gluttony. If I buy and eat three ice-creams in a row, am I breaking this moral code or not? (I wanted to include bullying in my list of Potterverse "Thou Shalt Not"s, and was deterred by too many apparently non-condemned incidents, this one included.) Good luck with the exams, Valky! catkind From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Thu May 12 08:37:39 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:37:39 -0000 Subject: In defence of Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128768 Dudley and his curly tail have been on people's minds and in their posts lately. I'd like to run a couple of ideas past the group ... Yes, I'm sure we are meant to be cheering Hagrid on, based on our experience as readers. We are familiar with all the bullying, ill treatment and misery associated with Harry's stay at PD, and we have every reason to dislike Dudley intensely. Naturally, if we deplore a child bullying and ill-treating another child, we cannot in any way endorse an adult bullying and ill-treating a child. And Hagrid is a daunting figure even without his ability to hand out tails at will. But this, I think, is the crux... at will? The isolated examples of magic that we've seen so far, excluding the Hogwarts letters, have all been done by Harry, and have all been unintentional. Under the influence of an intensely powerful emotion - usually fear, sometimes frustration, once even love - Harry lands on the school roof or frees a snake from a zoo cage. (Isn't that the point of the snake incident? Harry identifies with the snake's sad, deprived, imprisoned life, and off it goes to its ancestral forest. Dudley in the cage is a side effect.) So, in the presence of someone with magical talent, magic can be rather like static electricity; not usefully channelled along wires or wands, but capable of collecting and discharging where conditions permit. Hagrid first threatens Uncle Vernon with his umbrella, but that is all. He does not actually use it - though given the great love and loyalty he feels for DD, this must have taken considerable self control. The power not used on Vernon was not able to dissipate - it had built up like static electricity and when he moved the umbrella away, it earthed itself on Dudley. There need not have been any such intention on Hagrid's part. If he was thinking something like "What a pig!", that would have been sufficient for the magic to give Dudley a porcine feature. (Lucky for Dudley that he wasn't thinking: "What a load of old rubbish!".) And if Petunia had been in the way, then perhaps her ears - so useful for finding out what the neighbours are up to - might have moved up her head and become enlarged, pink, triangular flaps? Deborah, pleased with herself but prepared to be refuted! From cat_kind at yahoo.com Thu May 12 09:08:51 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:08:51 -0000 Subject: Moral Messages and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128769 catkind: Hi Marilyn, and welcome, if I'm allowed to say that as a relative newcomer myself. Marilyn Peake: > What I absolutely love about the Harry > Potter books is that J.K. Rowling writes them as though the wizard > and muggle worlds are real, as though Harry Potter is a real boy and > a real wizard. catkind: I too love the realistic touches. (Harry getting to know Ron over chocolate frogs; Harry's disastrous date with Cho.) On the other hand there are other times when Rowling throws realism for her characters out of the window. A realistic Vernon Dursley would never have ended up in the Hut on the Rock in the first place, and wouldn't have a clue what to do with a gun. It would be far too exotic and dangerous for him. A realistic Hermione couldn't possibly be so stupid as to think SPEW a good acronym. I think it can be fun and dramatic when characters act like caricatures of themselves too. This combination of realism and caricature seems to me to be unique to HP. Marilyn: > I think that the genius of the Harry Potter books is > that they do more than simply present good vs. evil in simplistic > terms to children. I think that the Harry Potter series presents > layers of good vs. evil to children, in the way that good and evil > truly exist in the real world. Talk about shades of gray! It isn't > always the hardworking man in the suburban house (Mr. Dursley, > described by J.K. Rowling as "... the director of a firm called > Grunnings") who is good. It isn't always his dutiful wife who is > good, either. On the other hand, evil doesn't always come dressed in > black cloaks. Good and evil are more complicated than that. As > children read Harry Potter for the adventure and for the fantastical > elements such as "Platform Nine and Three-Quarters", "Bertie Bott's > Every Flavor Beans", "Chocolate Frogs", and unicorns, they're > absorbing the intricacies of real world good and real world evil. catkind: I'm not sure. There *is* a large degree of evil coming dressed up in black cloaks, so far at least. The dark side comes neatly labelled: Death Eaters, the Dark Lord, Dark Arts, the High Inquisitor. In real life, it's not half so easy. JKR does play with mislabelling to some extent: Sirius Black mislabelled as DE, for example. Snape is supposedly mislabelled as evil, but he also behaves in "evil" ways, but he is on the side of good (so far at least). I'm lost as to what if any moral message there is there, the best I can do is to say JKR's getting us to think about the questions. If we weren't doing so before, we certainly are after the pensieve scene. I don't see the Dursleys as shade-of-grey at all. They're absolutely and stereotypically all that is wrong with dull suburbia, combined with being nasty bullies. Maybe all will become clearer when we see how the saga ends. catkind From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Thu May 12 11:29:14 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:29:14 -0000 Subject: Moral messages (and Hagrid) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128770 > > Valky: > > In any case I don't see what all the fuss is about turning Dudders > > into a pig, Its not that vicious, and it's not really an attack on > > him being 'Fat' at all. What had ever happened to poor little > > Dudders before this night that could even vaguely prove that he > > wouldn't benefit from a discipline in what he's become? > catkind: > Okay, even supposing Hagrid does know what Dudley is, this > argument doesn't really work, because Dudley doesn't know he knows. > If Hagrid said "let this teach yer a lesson, pickin' on poor 'Arry > like tha'!" then Dudley might indeed get said lesson. As it is he's > terrified for the whole scene, he's hiding behind his parents, he's > not showing any kind of lack of humility, or gluttony (well, he > twitched at the sight of some sausages, but then even Harry is > canonically starving by this point, and Harry isn't used to eating > as much as Dudley), and for him the punishment comes totally out of > the blue. Valky: Good points all, catkind and I do concede I really don't have canon to continue with arguing for my above point. But I must admit I was gratified to see Dudley facing this adversity in this scene, it seemed right for him to do so then and it still does now. I felt sorry for Dudley before this scene more than after and I didn't think that it was unhealthy or unfair for him to see that people can't always control themselves and burden themselves for his sake like his parents ineffably did day to day. What I mean is that he should know that he will be OK if someone 'looks at him sideways' (in a manner of speaking) for no apparent reason, the fact that he didn't was what made me feel sorry for him, not the fact that somebody did. Catkind: > Dudley certainly needs to be taught a lesson, but I think the only > lesson he's learned here is that wizards are powerful and frightening. > It has to come over to Dudley as an attack on his weight, doesn't it? > Hagrid's calls him "yer great lump", tells Vernon "Yer great puddin' > of a son don' need fattenin' anymore, Dursley, don' worry," and then > gives him a pig's tail. > Valky: What you are saying is logical catkind but I really don't feel so passionately that these things are something a person *needs* to be protected from. Now to a great degree I advocate that people should be respectful to each other and not deliberately cause emotional harm through abusive words but also I factor into that that it is healthy for people to be forgiving and able to build confidence in themselves that the things other people say in anger won't destroy them. So to say that Hagrid's bitter words were in honesty, he was sad and fed up with seeing Harry suffer and he didn't try to hide it for Dudleys sake which would be deceitful quintessentially a worse thing than speaking out of turn. I am circling around the point a lot here, I think, so I'll just suffice to say I see a moral question here that it might be bad to say nasty things because you're angry but isn't it worse to conceal from each other that we feel anger at all (read Petunia's pursed lips). Dudley has suffered more than this at the hands of his repressed parents. > catkind: Thanks to Tonks, Geoff and Laura for the definitions of > gluttony. > > So we have two ideas - greed, and excess. How do we define excess? > Eating so much that it's bad for your health? That line would be > crossed long before Dudley's state. In my moral code that's stupid, > but bears its own punishment. I guess religious people are more > likely to rate it morally wrong, as your body is a gift from the > gods etc. Valky: That is not my veiw of Gluttony to be precise. To define the excess that is the quality befitting gluttony I think we should scarcely cling to the word excess. The problem I see with all the deadly sins is that they are sins against oneself, they are the demons of fear that haunt us. The sin of Gluttony is clinging to self pity denial and hatred, as are all the sins IMO. Gluttony is the fear of inadequacy the fear that all will be taken away from you so there will never be enough to make you safe from that. An inadequate feeling person translates well into a hungry person and the difference between this and greed is that greed is the fear one cannot survive without more while gluttony is the fear that even if one has more and more it will all mean nothing or been taken from you anyway. In sinning as I see it the problem is not that these things are not true, because they generally are truth, but that the sin is **fearing them and acting on that fear**, in extreme cases obsessively which is particularly demonstrated by the obsessive manner in which Dudley acts on his fears and feelings of inadequacy. Catkind: > ...edit.. where the sin lies with gluttony. If I buy and eat > three ice-creams in a row, am I breaking this moral code or not? > Valky: LOL I don't think this on its own really fits my above criteria, it sounds to me a little bit like enjoying yourself. ;D From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu May 12 11:02:19 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:02:19 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marcelle" wrote: > It always seemed strange to me that Hogwarts would include 11 year > olds with 17 and 18 year olds...I'm not an educator, but certainly > some things that are appropriate for older teenagers are not > appropriate for 11 year olds? They all share meals together, walk > the castle halls, share a common room...its simply foreign to me > that Hogwarts throws the students all together. > I've read this about three times and I have no idea what you are referring to. Why would sharing meals, walking in the same castle halls or sharing a common room be anything other than completely normal? Gerry From kida12 at gmail.com Thu May 12 04:26:11 2005 From: kida12 at gmail.com (Kay D.) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:26:11 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP deluxe edition cover References: Message-ID: <0fa901c556aa$bab46220$6400a8c0@KAYSHP> No: HPFGUIDX 128772 I wonder what DD and Harry would be doing in the Forbidden Forest? Maybe it is the forest where LV went to hide? Did he also practice the dark arts there before his rise to power? They could be in the forbidden forest to recruit the centaurs or check on Gwarp? Or it could be to find a whole new creature group. Wonder if the Anglia car will resurface? Did Umbridge come out of the forest? What exactly is LV seeking? I'm guessing it is no longer eternal life? Does he want to rule the wizarding world, and ultimately the Muggles? I was pondering if the HBP could be someone from the far past, like Nicholas Flamel? If some of the chapters were almost in the first book, I have to wonder if it could be someone from the past. Has anyone given thought to the possibility that Hagrid's umbrella is actually his wand? (Rather than his wand being hidden within) Would LV have been around 40 when he rose to power and Harry's parents were 11ish? Kay D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kida12 at gmail.com Thu May 12 04:30:26 2005 From: kida12 at gmail.com (Kay D.) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:30:26 -0600 Subject: House Elves and Dobby References: Message-ID: <0fb301c556ab$5311a9b0$6400a8c0@KAYSHP> No: HPFGUIDX 128773 I was really alluding to the house elves story here, Dobby's life is changed by Harry's kindness Why did Dobby help Harry? Why do house elves have so much power (even without wands), and yet allow themselves to be enslaved? Will they become a factor in the next two books? Kay D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kida12 at gmail.com Thu May 12 04:34:10 2005 From: kida12 at gmail.com (Kay D.) Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:34:10 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Choose right over what is easy References: Message-ID: <0fbd01c556ab$d86cc310$6400a8c0@KAYSHP> No: HPFGUIDX 128774 Up to this point DD has been teaching Harry lessons in modern-day Stoic philosophy - learn to use reason over emotion. LV taps into emotion and uses it against his foes. In this speech isn't DD calling for all to use emotion - the very thing that gives LV power? I'm confused. Olive H. Perhaps DD is just making them aware that life is not fair; and that some things are worth fighting for. Or as Sirius said, worth dying for. I wonder if he was thinking of Lily when he said that? Kay D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From scolere at gmail.com Thu May 12 05:07:37 2005 From: scolere at gmail.com (Sass) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 06:07:37 +0100 Subject: Voldemort's Recruitment/School year system in the UK In-Reply-To: <1115848165.34405.70259.m24@yahoogroups.com> References: <1115848165.34405.70259.m24@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128775 > Subject: Re: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... Betsy wrote: > But isn't Mr. Nott a great deal older than Lucius? IIRC, JKR said > something about that on her website. I'm wondering how you know the > ages of the other DEs in the graveyard? Does canon tell us anything? Draco tells Harry & Ron (when they've Polyjuiced themselves into Crabbe and Goyle in CoS) that Lucius was at school when the Chamber was opened the first time - and we know that Tom Riddle (aka LV) was at school when he opened it for the first time - which puts Lucius at about the same age as LV - I'm betting Lucius was one of LV's friends and that's how he got recruited... > Subject: Re: School year system in the UK Celletiger wrote: > It always seemed strange to me that Hogwarts would include 11 year > olds with 17 and 18 year olds...I'm not an educator, but certainly > some things that are appropriate for older teenagers are not > appropriate for 11 year olds? They all share meals together, walk > the castle halls, share a common room...its simply foreign to me > that Hogwarts throws the students all together. Well it seems strange to you, because you're not used to it ! Those of *us* who went to the same school from ages 11-18 consider it perfectly normal and not in the least weird !! Since I'm only a couple of years younger than JKR, I'm guessing our school experiences (based on the way Hogwarts is organised) are the same - and it is very like my real life experience of school (except for the magic and the fact I went to an all-girls day school !) Older pupils were Prefects and helped the teachers keep the younger ones in order, we had a head girl too... And the older girls often organised after-school activities (I got my first intro. to computers aged 14 as a consequence of an after-school computer club organised by some 17/18 year olds). And I can vividly recall when I was 11 admiring the 17 and 18 year olds and wanting to be grown up like them... Sass -- "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca From jmoses22002 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 11:22:00 2005 From: jmoses22002 at yahoo.com (jmoses22002) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:22:00 -0000 Subject: HBP deluxe edition cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris Whittaker" wrote: > Hi all! > Wizard News (http://www.wizardnews.com/story.20050511.html has a > picture and short discription of the new artwork for the HBP deluxe > edition. It shows Harry and DD in a forest (The Forbidden Forest?) > Also,HPANA (http://hpana.com/imageviewer.cfm?nid=18589&f=hbp-deluxe- > cover.jpg)has a high res version of it. I wonder what DD and Harry > would be doing in the Forbidden Forest? > > Comments? Discussion? > > Flowerchild4 DD is not exactly wanted in the FF right now is he? You know with Firenze and all. Unless he was going to make peace, but then why would he take Harry. Didn't they threaten Harry's life too. Jmoses22002 From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu May 12 12:13:19 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:13:19 -0000 Subject: Choose right over what is easy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "B.G." wrote: > Why use the phrase "strayed across the path of LV"? Is it to point > out that Cedric was not prepared for battle? Why does he point out > Cedric was good, kind and brave? It doesn't matter how good, kind or > brave we are, it matters how prepared we are? Gerry: I think the point he is trying to make here is that Cedric died because he was at the wrong place at the wrong time and for no other reason at all. He was killed the same way someone would squash a fly. He was a special person, yet he died. Not because he fought evil, though undoubtedly he would have, but because the evil did not care about who or what he was or what he stood for. He was there, he should not have been, and therefore a very promising life was ended. Its a lesson. If any other person would have been there, the outcome would have been exactly the same. This speech tells the student exactly what kind of people LV and his DEs are and what will happen if they rise to power. > Olive: > Up to this point DD has been teaching Harry lessons in modern-day > Stoic philosophy - learn to use reason over emotion. LV taps into > emotion and uses it against his foes. In this speech isn't DD calling > for all to use emotion - the very thing that gives LV power? I'm > confused. Gerry No, though he uses an emotional speech, that is not the point. Choosing what is right above what is easy is making that step above your emotions. Using your inner compass to guide your actions. Choosing the easy way, sticking your head in the sand, letting evil get its way will create a climate where there will be quite a number of Cedrics. People who died because they were in the way. Choosing what is right is fighting evil, even though you are scared, even though you might get hurt or even die. This scene reminds me of a quote a read somewhere (trying to translate here): The people who quietly mind their own business are a dictator's best subjects. Fudge choose easy over right. He did not want to believe LV was back, he tried everything he could to stop the voices that told the truth. Why? Because that would mean preparing for war, the end of the cosy life he had now. So he opted for discrediting Harry and Dubledore, and for making sure his pet Umbridge culled Hogwarts from all possible subservities. The results: LV had almost a year to prepare his come-back whereas the MoM has lost a year. LV got a number of his most important supporters back All students who are not in the DA (and especially the 7th years who graduated) have gaps in their abilities to defend themselves against the DE's. Gerry From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu May 12 13:28:45 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:28:45 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128778 With a few margaritas under her belt, Jen mused about SSSusan's new addition to the slightly beat-up DRIBBLE life-preserver, a small gray object carelessly stored in a ramshackle tool shed. No one remembered to take it with them once when the denizens of Theory Bay left for an extended vacation. So far no one had returned. Until today. "That life-preserver kept Grannybat afloat for quite a few days once upon a time," Jen commented to SSSusan idly, "when Theory Bay was hopping with activity and George served up a mean fire-whisky at the bar. They said no one would ever return here! Especially not with Hurricane Jo on the horizon. But here you are SSSusan, bravely fighting the winds to bring DRIBBLE SHADOWS to the Bay--here's a toast to you!" The two clink glasses in a companionable way and SSSusan, barely able to contain herself, bounces on the creaky beach chair. "WELL, enough reminiscing Jen, What do you THINK?! About DRIBBLE SHADOWS? "Oh, sorry, got lost in thought there. What did you put in these margaritas anyway? I'm feeling a bit....well, erm, anyway...It's *perfect* is what I think. A perfect solution to several things bothering me for quite awhile now." "You mean something new, something other than what I proposed last night?" SSSusan waited expectantly. Jen spied several other figures lounging in the Bay at the moment, unheard of this time of year. Alla sat under a beach umbrella with the word SNAPE emblazoned across the top, and a big "X" marking through his name. Alla! She never did care for the Potions Master, once the most prolific theory subject in this part of the world. Jen shaded her eyes and looked in the distance. "Is that Neri too?!? What's he doing over there, hopping on one foot and trying to wipe blood off the other one?" "Well, erm," SSSusan evaded Jen's eyes, "he must have had an accident. There are razors out there you know, left over from that Friar who wandered around here. Maybe Neri, you know, stepped on one." Jen looked curiously at her friend. "SSSUSAN! Did *you* do that?!? "Well he called my theory *inelegant*, the nerve of some people! Here, I'll give him a margarita for gosh sakes, don't get all snarky on me!" SSSusan called Neri over and he accepted the drink gratefully, mumbling about the need for a fire-whiskey at the moment to use as aniseptic. "You know Neri," Jen remarked casually, "Snape's potion could still have been used for the protection during the missing-24 hours and not be redundant. Haven't you ever wondered exactly how Harry is protected at Hogwarts?" Neri surveyed Jen suspiciously. Everyone knew the shiny canon that Harry was safest at Hogwarts because he was under the watchful eye of Albus Dumbledore, and due to all the extra precautions there. "I find it a bit odd myself, that the one place Harry is safest besides the blood protection of Privet Drive, is at Hogwarts. Surrounded by the three people who would be able to administer the dragon-blood ointment to Harry at verious intervals throughout the year. Don't you?" While Neri pondered the possibility, SSSusan suddenly sat straight up in her chair. "Madam Pomfrey!" she said excitedly, "how many times every year does Harry visit the hospital wing and even sleep there! A perfect place to administer the ointment!" She and Jen click glasses again, while Neri frowns at this new information. Both suspect an objection might be on the way, the razor so recently uppermost in his mind. Jen swung her legs over the side of the lounge chair, "excuse me, there's something I need to tell Alla. About Snape. You see, it's so perfect! Snape risked his life to deliver the carefully prepared ointment to James and Lily at Godric's Hollow on that fateful afternoon, and was met at the door by James and possibly Sirius Black. They chided him! They sneered at him! Here Snape was risking his life to tell them the Dark Lord was on the way and the ointment would protect baby Harry, and SLAM! Right in his face. Snape kept the ointment and it was administered during the missing 24-hours. Viola!" "It explains what Snape told Harry in POA: 'Like father, like son Potter! I have just saved your neck and you should be thanking me on bended knee!...You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black--'" Jen beamed at the assembled group, happy to feel the water tickling her toes in Theory Bay once again and certain rain would fall on her speculations soon, as often happened when you dabbled in the Bay. From nrenka at yahoo.com Thu May 12 13:31:07 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:31:07 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Recruitment/School year system in the UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sass wrote: > Draco tells Harry & Ron (when they've Polyjuiced themselves into > Crabbe and Goyle in CoS) that Lucius was at school when the Chamber > was opened the first time - and we know that Tom Riddle (aka LV) was > at school when he opened it for the first time - which puts Lucius > at about the same age as LV - I'm betting Lucius was one of LV's > friends and that's how he got recruited... You have your quotes confused. Draco says: "Of course, it was fifty years ago, so it was before his time, but he knows all about it, and he says that it was all kept quiet and it'll look suspicious if I know too much about it." And, per OotP canon, Lucius Malfoy is 41. Not a contemporary of Tom Riddle at all. It's an open question, and one of the most interesting ones, how and when the DEs got recruited. Were there people at Hogwarts openly sympathetic to the cause? Was the political situation affecting the relationships of the people at school to each other? Signs point to yes, given the "precious little to celebrate for the past 11 years" in PS/SS. -Nora gets back to trying to finish paper #2 out of 3 From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 12 13:49:46 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:49:46 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128780 Neri: > Hey, you should know that Theory Bay is a dangerous place. At least > no one is after you with a big paddle. I still have a half-sunk > ship of myself to float, and it doesn't look like I'll manage it > before hurricane Jo comes to visit. SSSusan: You mean VASSAL, Neri? Aw, give yourself some credit -- she's still seaworthy! Neri: > So what can I say about the 24 hrs? They always seemed superfluous > and inelegant to me. Why do we need them at all? SSSusan: EXACTLY. Why build them into the story if they're not essential in some way? Neri: > So what do we know about the 24 hrs? drawers> I once decided to write my own copy of "The Fully-Annotated > Harry Potter". I actually made it all the way to the end of the > first chapter of the first book . Aha, here it is. I knew it > would come handy one day. So what can we tell from Ch. 1? > So, here is one scenario that would fit: > Hmmm, elegant it most definitely ain't, and there's too many > somewheres, someones and somethings, but I think I didn't make any > superfluous assumptions . Here's a slightly > simpler scenario: > > 2. Hagrid is sent by DD and takes Harry out of the wreckage. He > borrows the motorcycle from Sirius. Then he gets a birdie from DD > that he has to deliver Harry to the Dursleys', but in the meantime > he has to wait with him somewhere else. During this wait McGonagall > calls Hagrid, and he tells her that DD will be at Number 4 Privet > Drive, but not when and why. In the meantime, DD at Hogwarts > watches green smoke coming out of silvery instruments, and > carefully mixes the essence of Harry with the essence of Petunia > (or whatever). When he's through with this (no way to know how long > it takes; could be enough to justify any part of the 24 hrs) he > sends a birdie to Hagrid to bring Harry to the Dursleys', and > apparates there himself. SSSusan: Well, hmmm, Neri. Can I say first that I think it is fantastic that you came up with all this on such short notice from a newbie to the bay's pleading? :-) I guess I do see one bit of, if not superfluous assumption, still of... inexplicableness? That is, WHY would DD need to have someone else bring Harry to Privet Drive if DD had already been with him to administer the charm? I mean, why wouldn't DD just take Harry himself? THAT I don't get at all. It seems a convoluted way to handle things. Neri: > The question is, is this enough to justify 24hrs, or are there > additional things she haven't told us yet? And if there are, how > can they make scenarios 1 or 2 more elegant? SSSusan: Ack, I think there must be something else missing, Neri. While things could definitely have happened as you've outlined here in 1 (which I snipped) or 2, I can't get past the bizarreness of DD placing the charm on Harry somewhere after GH and before Privet Drive (presumably Hogwarts) but then still having *Hagrid* transport Harry to Privet Drive while he (DD) simply apparates there later. Sure, he might have had more business to attend to in the intervening hours, but if the charm was in place, why not just deliver Harry then? Plus, I'm back to your point A, which was this: >>> A) DD didn't meet Hagrid, or even had a chance to communicate with him in detail during the 24hrs, because when Hagrid appears at the Dursleys' he has to tell DD where he got the motorcycle and that he didn't have problems taking Harry out of the house. Unless they're both putting a show, of course, but for whom? For McGonagall? Besides, Hagrid isn't good at this kind of stuff.<<< I just don't see why DD would put on a show about the motorcycle. But if Hagrid had already brought Harry to DD for charm application, DD would *know* about the mechanism of transport, no? So it doesn't quite seem to fit. ******************************************************* SSSusan pats her bandaged foot gingerly, stares out into the Bay for a moment, then nods determinedly and announces, "You know? I think it's actually easier for *my* poor brain to stick with the scenario of Snape being the one with Harry in the 24 hours, applying that ointment, no matter how bloody convoluted it might seem. "But you go right on working on simplifying those missing 24 hours, if you like," she says with the hint of a wink. "Thanks for the company, Neri." And she heads off, limping, down the beach. A moment later SSSusan thinks perhaps, just perhaps, she hears words floating out from behind her. Something like... "Deluded, that one." Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 12 14:30:42 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:30:42 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128781 SSSusan and Jen look up to see Potioncat walking down the dock. "Come join us, we have margaritas!" SSSusan calls. Potioncat's pace quickens and soon she is sitting in a beach chair, sipping a margarita. "I couldn't help but overhear your conversation," Potioncat said. "No, of course you couldn't. Not with those extendable ears," Jen pointed out." Potioncat hastily stowed them in a pocket, and kept talking. This idea sounds very good. You were saying: >DRIBBLE SHADOWS > > "Dragon's Resistance In Blood Bestows Life-saving Effects: Snape, > Hagrid And Dumbledore's Ointment Was Supplement." > > Sipping greedily at her margarita, and eyes beginning to dance with > excitement, SSSusan continues, "I think what happened ? and the > reason DD trusts Snape ? is that Snape found out Voldy knew a > portion of the prophecy *and* that he was targeting the Potters. > Snape decided to turn away from Voldy ? maybe because of old > feelings for Lily, who knows? ? but he went to DD with the > information. And then these two began to consider what they could > do to protect Harry. DD, already knowledgable about dragon blood ? > having determined its 12 uses, after all ? asked Snape about the > possibility of somehow utilizing it. Potioncat: I like DRIBBLE SHADOW! Keep all your ideas and add this variation: What if dragon's blood was part of LV's experiments with immortality? Remember, JKR says we should ask why LV didn't die, not why Harry lived. Under DD's protection and with Hagrid's help, Snape is also investigating the uses for dragon's blood in the hopes of coming up with either a protection for whichever child LV marks, or a way to foil LV? In the meantime, the attack happens. The AK is reflected and Harry sustains some injuries. Perhaps at this point DD already suspects some transference from LV to Harry. Or perhaps he's worried about the contamination in the scar or that Harry's injuries are very serious. At any rate, Hagrid dashes Harry off to Snape who gives an antidote made from dragon blood to Harry. All three pause, taking gulps of margaritas as they picture Professor Snape trying to get a 15 month old to take his medicine. It's not a pretty picture. The only difference from your idea is that LV was also using Dragon blood and perhaps that Snape's original goal was to defeat LV more than to protect Harry. But of course, his work in one direction had an unexpected outcome. It still fits with his not getting the recognition he wanted. I like DRIBBLE SHADOW! Potioncat agrees. And we can call my part OOPS! Offering Other Potion Swiftly! SSSusan rolls her eyes and Jen just shakes her head. "OK, never mind," Potioncat sighs, "I just wanted an excuse to use it." Potioncat (Honestly, just kidding about Oops.) From happydogue at aol.com Thu May 12 15:25:44 2005 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 11:25:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves and Dobby In-Reply-To: <0fb301c556ab$5311a9b0$6400a8c0@KAYSHP> References: <0fb301c556ab$5311a9b0$6400a8c0@KAYSHP> Message-ID: <8C7251DFFEDE0E9-B0C-2E02F@FWM-D38.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128782 I have always wondered what brought Dobby to help Harry? There seems to be a strong loyality for House Elves and "their" famlies. Was there a connection to the Potter family and Dobby? If Dobby had been a House Elf for some branch of the potter family, how did he get to to the Malfoy's? Does that mean that there is a connection between the Potter's and Malfoy's? Joan -----Original Message----- From: Kay D. To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 11 May 2005 22:30:26 -0600 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House Elves and Dobby I was really alluding to the house elves story here, Dobby's life is changed by Harry's kindness Why did Dobby help Harry? Why do house elves have so much power (even without wands), and yet allow themselves to be enslaved? Will they become a factor in the next two books? Kay D. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coronaborealisla at hotmail.com Thu May 12 13:12:41 2005 From: coronaborealisla at hotmail.com (Kendall McCallum) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:12:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: School year system in the UK/Gluttony References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128783 Marcelle wrote: > > It always seemed strange to me that Hogwarts would include 11 > > year olds with 17 and 18 year olds...I'm not an educator, but > > certainly some things that are appropriate for older teenagers > > are not appropriate for 11 year olds? They all share meals > > together, walk the castle halls, share a common room...its simply > > foreign to me that Hogwarts throws the students all together. Gerry wrote: > I've read this about three times and I have no idea what you are > referring to. Why would sharing meals, walking in the same castle > halls or sharing a common room be anything other than completely > normal? In my Middle School the seventh and eighth grades had all their classes in different hallways, they ate lunch in different cafeterias, and the teachers discouraged any mixing between the two grades. In high school this separation continued for the most part, if only through habit. You only had classes with the people in your grade and so you only talked to the people in your grade, unless you were in the music program or involved in sports which mixed the grades. It therefore seems strange that Hogwarts would toss all the age groups into social situations with each other. -Kendall From elvenlady0903 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 13:47:35 2005 From: elvenlady0903 at yahoo.com (Sandy) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 06:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP deluxe edition cover In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050512134735.17349.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128784 jmoses22002 wrote: DD is not exactly wanted in the FF right now is he? You know with Firenze and all. Unless he was going to make peace, but then why would he take Harry. Didn't they threaten Harry's life too. Elvenlady: Actually didn't it say at the end of OOTP that DD went and got Umbridge back from the centaurs? He may still have some power with them. He was able to get her back. Sandy From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 16:06:31 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050512160631.51942.qmail@web30110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128785 --- Kendall McCallum > In my Middle School the seventh and eighth grades > had all their classes in different hallways, they > ate lunch in different cafeterias, and the teachers > discouraged any mixing between the two grades. In > high school this separation continued for the most > part, if only through habit. You only had classes > with the people in your grade and so you only talked > to the people in your grade, unless you were in the > music program or involved in sports which mixed the > grades. It therefore seems strange that Hogwarts > would toss all the age groups into social situations > with each other. > -Kendall I'm from the US, and from a small school (about 800 students, K-12). We had one lunch room. Generally the youngest students went first until you reached 7th grade and started changing classes (probably two or three grades at a time). Then you went by class rather than grade. As I was eating my lunch (as a senior) the seveth graders were in line to get theirs. PE and studyhall (before they canceled our studyhall) were mixed classes (several grades). So was creative writing (which was really just yearbook for half the year). Typing and home ec was generally mostly one grade with two or three people from another grade also in there (though sometimes it was split pretty evenly). I assume ag was the same. (Note: all these "mixed" cases are 7-12). Kindergarteners had recess alone. First and second together, third and fourth, and fifth and sixth, were paired. 7-12 all had recess together at the same time. So, what you're suggesesting seems odd to me. I can sort of get the separate common rooms (or at least two common rooms, one for older, one for younger) but beyond that it just seems strange. Rebecca Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/mobile.html From mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 14:25:08 2005 From: mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com (Amy Klein) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 07:25:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050512142508.80723.qmail@web30013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128786 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? For some reason Hagrid comes to mind. I've been thinking about this for a few days and I don't know why. He is close to Dumbledore and we know that he has connections with the Giant world, esp since he now has his brother Grawp. May be DD will send him on a mission? > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Half-Blood I think of people who aren't pure blood wizards, so that leaves out Draco and Sirius. I'm going to have to say it's someone we haven't been formally introduced to yet. I don't think it's any of the characters that have always been apart of the story line. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? I will laugh so hard if her big secret is built up so much that people are disappointed when the really find out what it is...lol This one I'm really not sure of, my best guess is that she was a DE, like Snape, but LV found out about her being on both sides and therefore went after her because she knew too much...I honestly don't know. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Harry...lol(well he probably is better at DADA than any teacher they could hire) I think that I'm going to have to say Lupin will come back. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Well, I honestly think that Hermione and Krum will be an item, after all she is going to his Villa as Skeeter sneakingly found out. I don't see Harry and Hermione going out, they're too different. I think Harry will get together with Cho Chang, after she's had some time over the summer to go and see a shrink, I think she'll be fine. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I like the idea of Madame Bones being the next Minstress of Magic. But, for some reason JKR makes it seem like we are going to be disappointed...yet I don't think it's Umbridge. I'm going with Percy on this one. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve- I think that DD and Harry see something that will happen in it and this causes them to find out about the Half-Blood Prince and thus go and find him to seek his help. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, Harry will take advanced potions. Everyone knows that people do better at potions when Snape is not around, so I think Harry will just scrape by with the OWL needed for advanced potions or DD will force Snape to teach Harry potions. Some how I also think Harry ends up in private advanced lessons, whether it's Potions I'm not sure. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, I think Neville will. As stated above everyone does better without Snape around. McGonagal even said that the only thing wrong with Neville's work is that he just needs confidence. Which makes me think that Neville is a great wizard, I think that he will get more OWL's than he thinks and this will give him the confidence that he needs. We might see a new Neville in this book and I think he'll be just as surprised as us, at the things he can do. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I think Harry will get 10 OWL's. Not sure how it will be split up or how they calculate them. But that number comes to mind. We all know that Hermione will get a clean sweep on hers. > 1. I think Harry will learn that he is actually a descendent of Godric Gryffindor > 2. We will learn more about Aunt Petunia and Lily's childhood- why Petunia acts so against the WW, but knows so much...may be she's a witch too in disguise? > 3. Sirius will come back to help Harry in some form. > 4. Dumbledore will find some way to get to the Giants and convince them to join his side. > 5. We will hear more about the connections between the muggle and ww. Muggles are apart of helping to keep the ww secret, but they also know more that the ww thinks they do. They will end up helping in the war. mohalagirl25 From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 12 16:10:22 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:10:22 -0000 Subject: HBP deluxe edition cover In-Reply-To: <20050512134735.17349.qmail@web53501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sandy wrote: > jmoses22002 wrote: > DD is not exactly wanted in the FF right now is he? You know with > Firenze and all. Unless he was going to make peace, but then why > would he take Harry. Didn't they threaten Harry's life too. Sandy: > Actually didn't it say at the end of OOTP that DD went and got Umbridge back from the centaurs? He may still have some power with them. He was able to get her back. Tonks: I haven't read the book in awhile, but aren't the Centaurs just upset with Firenze and Firenze's choice to help the humans? I don't remember them changing their respect for DD because of this. Unless I have forgotten something, I think the Centaurs still have respect for DD. Tonks_op Guess I had better start listening to my tapes again in prep for the next book. ;-) Getting a bit senile. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 12 16:25:53 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:25:53 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: <20050512160631.51942.qmail@web30110.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: (Snip)> Kindergarteners had recess alone. First and second > together, third and fourth, and fifth and sixth, were > paired. 7-12 all had recess together at the same time. > So, what you're suggesesting seems odd to me. I can sort of get the separate common rooms (or at least two common rooms, one for older, one for younger) but beyond that it just seems strange. Tonks: Well I didn't realize that there was so much variety is the US. I went to school back in the dark ages in a small town. We had different building for the K-6, 7-8, and 9-12. And 7-12 did not have recess. Can you imagine the sorts of trouble that age group could get into by having recess? And this was in the 50's, early 60's, when the worst that would happen is some older kids might sneek off to have a cigarette. I can't imagine it today! Kids in what the US calls Jr. High (7 & 8) would pick up some very bad ideas from kids in 9-12. And that(Jr.High) is the age group that are most impressionable, so IMO they should be kept seperate. Younger than 7th grade just need to be protected more from everyone. I can't imagine that there wouldn't be some serious problems with mixing all of these grades. Of coures, in the old days... when my parents went to school they had the old one room country school and everyone was there. But those were much different days and I think that kids were more mature back then. Tonks_op From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 16:55:15 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 09:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050512165515.99827.qmail@web30101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128789 --- Tonks wrote: > I can't > imagine that there wouldn't be some serious problems > with mixing all > of these grades. I graduated less than 10 years ago, and we didn't have serious problems. I can't say I agree with your philosophy, but that'd be getting off topic. I only wanted to contribute that with small schools, mixing is common. BTW, we did have separate buildings - one for K-3, one for 4-6 (and the lunch room) and then several building for 7-12 classes. I also get confused when people comment on school administration looking down on teachers dating/married to each other. We had two or three married couples at my school. Rebecca __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From kking0731 at gmail.com Thu May 12 17:22:46 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:22:46 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128790 Snow: Here are some very quick thoughts on the missing 24 hrs Neri hugely snipped: G) We also know that DD had corresponded with Petunia before, but it doesn't look like he did during the 24hrs, because Petunia was in a very good mood when Vernon was back from work. Snow: How about Dumbledore met with Petunia after Vernon had gone off for the day. Petunia was contacted directly after Vernon had left, via a large tawny owl (SS pg. 2), about the situation with her sister Lily. Dumbledore convinced Petunia to take Harry and told her that Harry would arrive that night. When she finally agreed to the proposal they both agreed on, Dumbledore used Petunia/Lily's blood to bind the contract that when she picked the baby up in her arms the contract was activated and Harry was protected by both his mother's blood and Petunia's home. (Dumbledore didn't need Harry, just the family blood that ran through Harry's veins also.) As to Petunia being in a good mood that day: Petunia, when questioned by Vernon about her sister, immediately becomes "shocked and angry" (SS pg. 7). Petunia becomes snappish to any further discussion to the point were Vernon discontinues the conversation and they both immediately went to bed. (I would think that would be a perfect way in which to disguise the fact that you knew anything at all eliminate the conversation.) Another clue is just how quickly Petunia feigned sleep. This dreadful conversation about her presumably hated sister's child with Vernon had just concluded and yet she was capable of quickly falling asleep, I don't think so. I can visualize many reactions to an upsetting conversation but sleep isn't one of them. I think Petunia is a right little actress, she has managed to keep a lot of what she knows about the wizarding world a secret from everyone around her. > snipped Neri's suggestions for the missing 24 hours< Snow with a proposal of the missing 24 hours: Dumbledore October 31st 1991 becomes aware of the circumstances at GH and tells Hagrid that he must collect baby Harry (whom he knows is still alive via the watch, each number corresponds to a specific person, similar to the Weasley clock). Dumbledore asks Hagrid to take the baby to the Longbottoms who have the facilities and know-how to care for an infant until later that evening when he should proceed to Number 4 Privet Drive unless he hears from him to do otherwise (since he hasn't met with Petunia yet and can't be 100% sure of her answer). Dumbledore left the castle by way of Fawkes to an unknown destination to contact and meet with Petunia. Hagrid proceeded to the GH destination only to be confronted by McGonagall, ever so briefly, on his way out of the castle. Hagrid may have said something like "there's been trouble at the Potters Dumbledore will be at Number 4 Privet Drive later and can tell you everything". McGonagall sets out for Privet Drive immediately, not knowing when `later' would be. McGonagall noticed Vernon at the corner while looking at her map at about the same time the large tawny owl arrives with news from Dumbledore about her sister Lily. Petunia gets ready and takes off to meet Dumbledore with Dudley kicking her all the way down the street yelling for sweets. Dumbledore meets with Petunia (where is questionable). Albus tells Petunia the state of the matter at which point Petunia asks what this has to do with her. Dumbledore illuminates her memory of what Voldemort had done not only to her sister but to her own parents and although Voldemort is gone for now, he may someday return. Dumbledore continues to explain that not only is Harry protected by Lily's blood but her and Dudley will be also as long as they give Harry houseroom but on the day Harry is denied houseroom Petunia and Dudley lose this protection along with Harry. Petunia is still a bit apprehensive until Dumbledore tells Petunia that along with the Lily sacrifice/Dumbledore charm will be some of Lily's witching abilities. (Petunia is neither a witch or a squib but has abilities through the Lily sacrifice/Dumbledore charm) Petunia always craving the abilities her sister was born with accepts the conditions with a note of concern, and a demand of her own, that Vernon never becomes aware of the circumstances to the pact. Dumbledore and Petunia together plan the arrival of Harry along with the letter that accompanied him so that Vernon was totally unaware of neither Petunia and Dumbledore's meeting nor the pact between them. Snow From kking0731 at gmail.com Thu May 12 17:30:17 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:30:17 -0000 Subject: HBP deluxe edition cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris Whittaker" > wrote: > It shows Harry and DD in a forest (The Forbidden Forest?) > > I wonder what DD and Harry would be doing in the Forbidden Forest? > > > > One of the news articles called it a glen. My first impression was GH > and trees have grown up over it. Could be somewhere around the Black > family home, the Malfoy home, the Riddle house. Or maybe the FF. The > forest could hold many secrets, it is that sort of place. It could also > be the Shreaking Shack. There are just too many posibilites to figure > this one out, IMO. > > Tonks_op Snow: How about Dumbledore is leading Harry to Godric's Hollow, which has since that historical night, been magically encouraged to overgrow with foliage from muggle sight. The muggles that had seen the rubble of the disaster that fateful night most likely had their memories modified and were possibly relocated so they wouldn't further question the house and how it was destroyed. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 12 17:37:22 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 10:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP deluxe edition cover In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050512173722.29885.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128792 Tonks: I haven't read the book in awhile, but aren't the Centaurs just upset with Firenze and Firenze's choice to help the humans? I don't remember them changing their respect for DD because of this. Unless I have forgotten something, I think the Centaurs still have respect for DD. ************* Well, they were threatening toward Hagrid and the kids entering the forest as a result of Hagrid's helping Firenze escape the other centaur's beating. I would assume they would also not want DD in the forest since he is the reason Firenze "betrayed" them. I would also assume they would have some reverence for DD as a powerful wizard and adversary. I don't think they would be as free with their threats as they are with Hagrid. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Thu May 12 17:47:18 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 17:47:18 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: <20050512142508.80723.qmail@web30013.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128793 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid. If not him then I'm going to choose a woman because so far we've had two men die. Tonks? > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Hagrid. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? That she was more powerful than any of the Marauders and that she used a form of questionable magic to protect Harry. One well thought out and planned for. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The Lion Guy. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think Harry will date a couple of girls but nothing too seriously. Perhaps Cho again and maybe Susan Bones or one of the Patel twins. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Don't know their name but someone just as useless as Fudge. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensive. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes because of his plans to become an Auror. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Nope, and he will blossom because of it. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All except History. Now for my predictions: 1) Ron will kind of fall into dating Luna, through no effort of his own. This will drive Hermione crazy, which will completely go over Ron's head. He'll just notice that she's still seeing Krum. (They won't get together until the final book). 2) Neville comes back from Summer vacation a much changed boy. Much more focused (although still shy and forgetful) and skilled. He will continue to grow throughout the book. 3) Major suspicion will be placed on Snape, again, but this time it will look real, with us doubting his loyalty as the book comes to a close. He will be proven "good" in book 7. 4) We find out that Snape left Voldemort when he finds out about the plans to kill the Potters. The way he finds out is that Lily comes to him in search of a strong spell, even if it's dark, to protect her son. 5) Draco becomes more of a menace. With his father in Azkaban he is so enraged that he stops being just a bully and becomes a true foe to Harry. Casey From dk59us at yahoo.com Thu May 12 18:13:38 2005 From: dk59us at yahoo.com (Eustace_Scrubb) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:13:38 -0000 Subject: What LV did with his advantage (was Re: Choose right over what is easy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128794 Gerry wrote: > Fudge choose easy over right. He did not want to believe LV was back, > he tried everything he could to stop the voices that told the truth. > Why? Because that would mean preparing for war, the end of the cosy > life he had now. So he opted for discrediting Harry and Dubledore, and > for making sure his pet Umbridge culled Hogwarts from all possible > subservities. The results: > LV had almost a year to prepare his come-back whereas the MoM has lost > a year. > LV got a number of his most important supporters back > All students who are not in the DA (and especially the 7th years who > graduated) have gaps in their abilities to defend themselves against > the DE's. Eustace_Scrubb: Absolutely right on Fudge's folly. And the results could have been quite disastrous. However, on balance, has LV's apparent single-minded focus on the Prophecy a mistake that has evaporated the advantage that Fudge handed him? I wonder. Comparing the names of the dozen Death Eaters involved in the Ministry fight with the ten who escaped from Azkaban gives some idea of how many known followers LV still has at his disposal. Only three of the ten escapees are named in the text: Bellatrix, Dolohov and Rookwood. However, we can add Rodolphus and Rabastan Lestrange to the list, as we know from GoF that they were imprisoned in Azkaban and from OoP that they were free by the Minstry battle. We can add Mulciber to the list as Crouch Sr. tells Karkaroff in the GoF pensieve scene that the Ministry already had Mulciber and again he was at the OoP Ministry battle. That leaves 4 escapees unidentified We know the names of all 12 DEs in the Ministry battle (this assumes that when Harry saw the "dozen lit wand tips" appear in the DoM that this meant there were in fact a dozen DEs, no more and no less): Malfoy, Bellatrix, Nott, Jugson, Rodolphus [Lestrange], Rabastan [Lestrange], MacNair, Avery, Rookwood, Mulciber, Crabbe Sr., Dolohov. Of these we know that Malfoy, Nott, MacNair, Avery, and Crabbe Sr. are not among the Azkaban escapees as they were at large and able to apparate to the graveyard in GoF. Jugson, if I am not mistaken, is the only DE at the Ministry battle who can't definitely be identified as an escapee or a non-escapee. So there are either 4 or 5 of the escapees still at large (the 3 or 4 who are nameless, plus Bellatrix who LV dragged away with him). Of the DEs who went to the graveyard in GoF, only Goyle Sr. remains unaccounted for. And of course there's dear old Wormtail, from whom we've not heard since the end of GoF. Of course we don't yet know what will become of the DEs captured at the Ministry, though Draco may be right that they'll be out soon with no Dementors to feed off them. But for right now, what does LV have to show for his year's headstart? No prophecy, 11 of his followers detained, the intensely-loyal-if-unstable Bellatrix on his hands (along with the diffident Wormtail) and 3 or 4 unnamed followers. The only contact we know of on the outside would be Goyle Sr., who may not be too reliable if his son takes after him and who is probably under suspicion anyway at this point. The element of surprise is gone now. I'm not overly impressed with what LV has accomplished during Fudge's year of denial. _Unless_ Wormtail and the 3-4 other DE escapees have been working on another plan of which Harry and the reader knows nothing as yet. And unless having the Dementors on LV's side is enough by itself to give him the advantage over the Ministry and the Order. We'll just have to see... Cheers, Eustace_Scrubb From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 12 18:25:43 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:25:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128795 Feeling the affects of the margaritas, Potioncat stays on the dock while SSSusan goes for a walk. Potioncat watches as SSSusan meets up with Neri and encounters something sharp. SSSusan's voice carries over the water: > SSSusan: > "Damn! That hurts. snip > SSSusan grins as she whips out Neosporin, an Ace bandage & a huge > roll of gauze, careful not to knock over the remains in her > margarita pitcher. SSSusan begins wrapping her foot with the gauze, from here it looks like she has a turban on her foot. "TURBAN!" Potioncat yells. "That's it!" She dashes, (well, staggers) off to join SSSusan and the gathering crowd. She grabs the first aid kit and writes TURBAN on it. Then she starts to speak: Dreams! Right after chapter one is chapter two. (Everyone shakes their heads in pity.) It starts with the dream about a flying motorcycle. Harry doesn't remember the bike, but we do. It acts as a bridge for the missing ten years. But JKR has Harry bring it up again. JKR wants us to remember the bike or the dream. Harry doesn't remember the giant that rode the bike, just that it was a pleasant dream that he thought he'd had before. Skip a few and we get to chapter 7. Remember the dream that Harry forgot? SS/PS chapter 7 "Perhaps Harry had eaten a bit to much, because he had a very strange dream. He was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didn't want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tightened painfully--and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it--then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold--there was a burst of green light and Harry woke, sweating and shaking." What if this dream is a jumble of images? New experiences from that day mixed with forgotten events: The sorting hat; Draco and all that is unpleasant about Slytherin; The Potions Master who appears to make Harry's scar hurt; Quirrell's purple turban. The word destiny wasn't used by the Sorting Hat at the Feast. But it's in his dreams. Could someone have had a conversation in the past about Harry's destiny? Picture this: Hagrid delivers Baby Harry to Snape, possibly at Hogwarts. Hagrid runs an errand within the castle (meeting McGonagall, but not telling her Harry is there.) Snape treats the wound on Harry's head with the dragon blood ointment, wrapping a bandage around Harry's head. He wraps it tightly and it hurts. Baby Harry doesn't like that one bit! Finally Hagrid comes back and takes Harry on the pleasant bike ride. Back to the dream: The sorting hat merges with the turban which becomes the forgotten bandage. Snape looking past Quirrell's turban recalls to Harry's mind Snape applying a turban to his head. It makes his head hurt and jolts a memory of the real cause of the injury, high laughter and a green light. TURBAN! Tying Unguent 'Round Baby 'Arry's Noggin. Potioncat aplogizes to SSSusan for the goofy acronyms, but thinks the dream may support some protective action on Snape's part when Harry was young. From kersberg at chello.nl Thu May 12 16:26:24 2005 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 16:26:24 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Dobby In-Reply-To: <0fb301c556ab$5311a9b0$6400a8c0@KAYSHP> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kay D." wrote: > I was really alluding to the house elves story here, Dobby's life is changed by Harry's kindness > > Why did Dobby help Harry? Why do house elves have so much power (even without wands), and yet allow themselves to be enslaved? Will they become a factor in the next two books? I think Rowling's House elves are like most magical creatures a sort of one-dimensional creatures, they most time corporate what is subconscious on men's mind. Fear and fastination for water lead to the believe in kelpies for instance. Subconscious fear can have enormous power over somebody, so the power of a elf or other magical creature is a big as the one believing in them contributes to them.... and therefor such a creature is also the slave of that person. It cease to exist once one stop believing in them. The same kind of principal is used in the Boggart. Neville can laugh at his own fear for Snape and beat the boggart, Molly Weasly cannot laugh at her fear for getting her children and beloved killed and a pretty powerful witch as she is cannot beat the boggart. But then she is not as brave as Neville is. Back to Dobby. He makes it very clear that he is driven by a common need to improve the whereabouts of all house-elves, with Voldemort in power the situation of house-elves will be as bad as his own is in the Malfoy Manor. Rowling does not specify if he is the only houseelf in the Manor or if there are more. But as a typical magical creature he is also very shortsighted his logic is direct. Potter = Hope, Hogwarts = danger for Potter, no Potter = no Hope-----> stop Potter. No hidden family ties are needed between the Potter clan and the Malfoy clan. And I think that in the house of a selfconscious wizard as Lucius Malfoy house elves are ordered to do pretty nasty things for which a lot of power is needed sometimes. thinking himself in total control Lucius is the kind of wizard that allows a lot of power to be in his house-elves. That a house-elf would ever be able to turn against him is probably the last think he ever thought about. Kamion53 From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu May 12 18:38:30 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:38:30 -0000 Subject: Who was at the DoM (was: What LV did with his advantage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128797 Eustace Scrubb (hi, Eustace!) said: > We know the names of all 12 DEs in the Ministry battle (this assumes > that when Harry saw the "dozen lit wand tips" appear in the DoM that > this meant there were in fact a dozen DEs, no more and no less): > Malfoy, Bellatrix, Nott, Jugson, Rodolphus [Lestrange], Rabastan > [Lestrange], MacNair, Avery, Rookwood, Mulciber, Crabbe Sr., Dolohov. (snip) Of > the DEs who went to the graveyard in GoF, only Goyle Sr. remains > unaccounted for. Ginger: I was rereading OoP the other day, and I noticed something I hadn't before. Knowing me, it has been discussed to death, and I was off Filking or something, but here goes: (page references are US hardcover, chapter 35) The 12 you listed above are canon from p. 788, where Malfoy splits them up to chase after the kids. However, on p. 787, when Harry is running away from the DE's, a hand grabs him, Hermione yells "stupify" and the hand releases him. To whom did the hand belong? Was it Goyle, Sr. who was then left behind (thus not sent anywhere by Malfoy) or was it one of the other 12, and someone stopped for a quick "enervate" as they chased the kids. I kind of doubt this, as people we've seen enervated are a bit disoriented (Winky comes to mind) and the chase is immediately after the stupfication. Perhaps the DE's were doomed from the start for bringing 13 along? Thoughts? Ginger, getting company today and not at all ready. From oppen at mycns.net Thu May 12 18:54:15 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ravenclaw001) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:54:15 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Dudley---let's try this again... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128798 I tried posting this before, but with online jamups, I'm not sure it got through. Reading what people have had to say here about Hagrid in the Hut on the Rock, I have to admit that I think Hagrid was out of line giving Dudley a pig's tail because he was flamed at Vernon. At the same time, the theory that it was "unconscious magic" of the sort that Harry did when he was upset has a lot to recommend it, and I would like to know if people would have liked this better: "I am not paying for some crackpot old fool to teach him magic tricks!" yelled Vernon. Hagrid thrust his hands into his pockets, dropping his umbrella, and when they came out, he had a set of brass knuckle-dusters on one hand and a sawed-off baseball bat, looking smaller than it was against his gigantic frame, in the other. Smiling a predator's smile, Hagrid purred: "You, my friend, have just made a truly gigantic mistake!" (The ensuing scene of mindless ultraviolence has been censored for your protection by the Internet Board of Good Taste.) Also, I kind of think that Hagrid wanted to make it clear to this Muggle that what Harry would be learning is Real Sorcery, not the sort of "magic tricks" done by Muggle magicians like Harry Houdini or David Copperfield. --Eric Oppen, who, if he'd been present in the Hut on the Rock, would have been absolutely on fire with curiosity and bombarded Hagrid with questions: "How'd'ya do that? Can you teach me how to do that? What else can you do?" From oppen at mycns.net Thu May 12 18:58:26 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ravenclaw001) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:58:26 -0000 Subject: Dudley and Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128799 You know, a thought just occurred to me. In the Dursley household, the rule is "What Dudders wants, Dudders gets"---right? What if Dudley had taken right to his little cousin from the minute he first saw Harry, and damn-well _insisted_ on Harry getting commensurate treatment with him? Would this have resulted in Harry growing up just as spoilt as Dudley, or would the Dursleys have throttled back on Dudley-spoiling, just to avoid having to spoil Harry too? --Eric Oppen, who thinks about alternate outcomes a bit too much for his own good. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu May 12 19:04:19 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:04:19 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kendall McCallum" wrote: > In my Middle School the seventh and eighth grades had all their classes in different hallways, they ate lunch in different cafeterias, and the teachers discouraged any mixing between the two grades. In high school this separation continued for the most part, if only through habit. You only had classes with the people in your grade and so you only talked to the people in your grade, unless you were in the music program or involved in sports which mixed the grades. It therefore seems strange that Hogwarts would toss all the age groups into social situations with each other. > -Kendall Thanks, so Hogwarts is just different from what you are used to. What you describe seems very strange to me. Especially the discouraging part, what Hogwarts does I consider perfectly normal. In your original post I got the impression your school had actually reasons for doing so (though I cannot imagine what those could be. What you describe now seems to me just a (weird) custom. Do I see this correctly? Gerry Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Thu May 12 19:19:44 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:19:44 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128801 > Tonks: > Well I didn't realize that there was so much variety is the US. I > went to school back in the dark ages in a small town. We had > different building for the K-6, 7-8, and 9-12. And 7-12 did not have > recess. Can you imagine the sorts of trouble that age group could > get into by having recess? And this was in the 50's, early 60's, > when the worst that would happen is some older kids might sneek off > to have a cigarette. I can't imagine it today! Kids in what the US > calls Jr. High (7 & 8) would pick up some very bad ideas from kids > in 9-12. And that(Jr.High) is the age group that are most > impressionable, so IMO they should be kept seperate. OK, big question mark here. Keeping age groups separate because they might pick up bad ideas? So what happens at home? Need siblings to be kept separate too? Should children not talk to their older siblings friends? Or only with a parent there for fear of contamination? Should they be forbidden to watch TV programs with older children in them? And why would children of 9-12 have bad ideas? Especially the kind that cannot picked up from TV, books, newspapers or the internet? I'm sorry to say, but to mee this seems a rather paranoid view of children, motivated by fear and seeing the worst,instead of a positive view that gives children role models in growing up. What we see in Hogwarts is what I know from my school (age 12-18). People usually hang out with their peers, not with much older children as they are not interested in having younger ones around them. Unless there is a family connection. In case of Harry, we see him having contact with Fred and George through Ron, and a bit with the memebers of his Quidditch team. Gerry From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu May 12 20:15:01 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:15:01 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128802 This will probably get long. Sorry for that in advance. This would also be a good time to insert the "my opinion only" statement so I don't have to type IMO over and over. Hem hem: All opinions herein are my opinions and mine alone. Agreement, disagreement, discussion and other civil exercises are welcome. Any disagreement with the content of previous posts is not intended as a personal attack, and the rights and opinions of the writers of said posts are in no way questioned or dismissed. Ok, now to business. Time and time again, listees have expressed concern about fairness in certain scenes. I am going to refer specificly to Snape in the Pensieve, Dudley's tail, and Ferret!Draco. In each case someone who is supposed to be good (In Fake!Moody's case, I am going with our initial reading. That is, that from Harry's perspective, he WAS Moody.) Yet each did something that was a bad thing. Each did it to a character to whom we are not sympathetic. I have a theory on this. I am one who does not see any religious significance in the books. Then again, I'm as thick as the probervial concussed troll, so YMMV. I do believe that JKR, as a Christian has her faith and beliefs floating around in her head and that it effects her writing as much as any other aspect of her life. This will not be a religous post. But I do have to dip into some religious terminology. I think that JKR has merged 2 concepts of Christianity as a literary devise. I don't think she uses them in a religious sense, but that her religion has given her the background and insights. Caveat: Anyone who avoids religious stuff can take a deep breath and read the next two paragraphs quickly. After that, I promise, the rest won't have any religious discussion. The purpose of this paragraph is basicly defining terms. One of the cornerstone concepts of Christianity is "vicarious atonement". In the Bible, it is stated that all have sinned, all must atone, and that we are not able to do this on our own. Christ willingly took all our sins upon himself and paid the price of eternal damnation for us. Since he was perfect, he did not *deserve* punishment, yet he received it. Since he received it in our place, we will not be punished as atonement has been made. Another concept is "divine retribution". In the Bible, it states that God is responsible for vengence, not us. We are not to act out in anger, but to leave it to God. Ok, religious stuff over. Feel free to breathe. I didn't include Bible references, as that was not the intent of the post, but interested parties may feel free to contact me offlist. I feel that JKR has combined elements of these two concepts and merged them into what I will call "vicarious retribution". In each of the cases I listed: 1) A "good" character does something "bad" to a "bad" character. (This is oversimplified for the moment-bear with me.) 2) The "bad" character is one who has repeatedly caused Harry grief. 3) Harry is generally not able to avenge himself for these wrongdoings. 4) Each particular incident involves a "bad" person being humiliated in a manner which cannot be justified *within the context of the immediate situation*. In the case of Dudley, Hagrid gives him a pig's tail despite the fact that Dudley has done nothing to Hagrid, nor is he *at that time* causing Hagrid any trouble. Moody turns Draco into a ferret (and bounces him) despite the fact that Draco has done nothing to Moody. Granted, Moody is acting as a teacher, but his choice of punishment is not consistant with that allowed a teacher. The punishment doesn't fit the crime committed *at that time*. Snape is humiliated by James and Sirius for no reason *at that time*. People have wondered if we are supposed to cheer simply because one character is "good" and the other "bad" or if this is a case of JKR showing the grey in human nature, as opposed to black and white. I propose that JKR is using a literary sense of "cosmic justice" for lack of a better word (or phrase). "Vengance is mine", saith JKR, so to speak. Harry can not avenge himself for the sufferings he has received at that hands of Dudley, Draco and Snape, so JKR does it for him. Perhaps she doesn't want him to sink to their level, but still wants these three to pay for what they have done to Harry. By avenging Harry through others, she allows the reader a sense of justice. Each character gets his comeuppance (or in Snape's case, dropdownance) for the way they have treated Harry. Kind of a "what comes around, goes around" philosophy. Notice Harry's reaction to Dudley's tail and Ferret!Draco. He doesn't feel bad for them but he doesn't outright cheer either. In Dudley's case, he goes on to ask Hagrid about magic. In Draco's case, his reaction isn't shown, rather his reaction to Ron's reaction is shown. He laughs at Ron's reaction rather than at Draco. This is in contrast to his reaction to Snape. In this case, he is horrified. In the grand scheme of things, readers want to see Snape shown up by someone, but in the pensieve, it rings hollow. It is out of chronology. Snape has, in his life, yet to do the things for which we wish to see him have to answer. I think that when all is said and done, that Harry will not "pay back" any of the wrongs done to him, either through circumstance of by his own choice. I think that JKR doesn't want the readers to feel that Draco, Snape, and Dudley have "gotten away with it", so she takes matters into her own hands. Justice is served, but in a roundabout way. I also think she plays it for laughs with the first two scenes, and for insight into character in the Snape's case. Not that there isn't a laugh there if one is the sort to find it. I can't speak for JKR on that one, but I got a laugh out of it. So there you have it. Vicarious retribution. Harry won't get back at people, but JKR will. Harry does not need to seek revenge, nor do the Snape, Draco and Dudley have to seek atonement. It has been taken care of. Ginger, whose company is due to arrive at any minute. Gaah! From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 20:41:58 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:41:58 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128803 Quigonginger wrote: I propose that JKR is using a literary sense of "cosmic justice" for lack of a better word (or phrase). "Vengance is mine", saith JKR, so to speak. Harry can not avenge himself for the sufferings he has received at that hands of Dudley, Draco and Snape, so JKR does it for him. Perhaps she doesn't want him to sink to their level, but still wants these three to pay for what they have done to Harry. By avenging Harry through others, she allows the reader a sense of justice. Each character gets his comeuppance (or in Snape's case, dropdownance) for the way they have treated Harry. Kind of a "what comes around, goes around" philosophy. Notice Harry's reaction to Dudley's tail and Ferret!Draco. He doesn't feel bad for them but he doesn't outright cheer either. In Dudley's case, he goes on to ask Hagrid about magic. In Draco's case, his reaction isn't shown, rather his reaction to Ron's reaction is shown. He laughs at Ron's reaction rather than at Draco. This is in contrast to his reaction to Snape. In this case, he is horrified. In the grand scheme of things, readers want to see Snape shown up by someone, but in the pensieve, it rings hollow. It is out of chronology. Snape has, in his life, yet to do the things for which we wish to see him have to answer. So there you have it. Vicarious retribution. Harry won't get back at people, but JKR will. Harry does not need to seek revenge, nor do the Snape, Draco and Dudley have to seek atonement. It has been taken care of. Alla: I absolutely agree with the idea of "vicarious retribution", only I like calling it "carmic payback". I may borrow yours though for my future musings. I will not touch on the connections with the religion, because I think we differ a bit on it, but will just comment on this idea independently. I am 100% in a agreement with you that JKR is VERY good on "carmic payback punishments", only I used to think that the reason for them is simply because direct punishment may not fit with the plot well. I like your idea that JKR as Creator of the Potterverse may simply not want Harry to " make his hands dirty", so she will do it for him. What I disagree with is that Pensieve scene is there to provide "vicarious retribution" for Snape/Harry interactions. As you mentioned it indeed rings hollow for that because Harry was not born yet. :-) I said it before , but let me say it again - I think that Snape/boggart scene is MUCH more fitting candidate for vicarious retribution for at least Snape/Neville interactions. Granted, it does not exactly fits your described pattern ( good character does something bad to bad character, etc., unless Pippin will be commenting on it, of course :-)), BUT we see Snape humiliated and we see Neville laughing at him for the first time in the books, even if it is only Boggart. Personally I think that Snape is still about to receive "vicarious retribution" for what he does to Harry. I don't think we read that scene yet. I have to agree with you, unfortunately, I don't believe that Harry will punish Snape personally. Too bad, I at least hope we will see Harry laughing at him or even better publicly expressing REAL pity for him, which Snape will of course take for mockery. :-) I think pensieve scene is there for different reasons, not very clear to us yet. But this is of course just my opinion and my opinion only, Alla From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu May 12 20:44:45 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:44:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley and Harry In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050512204446.15763.qmail@web53104.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128804 > What if Dudley had taken right to his little cousin from the minute > he first saw Harry, and damn-well _insisted_ on Harry getting > commensurate treatment with him? Would this have resulted in Harry > growing up just as spoilt as Dudley, or would the Dursleys have > throttled back on Dudley-spoiling, just to avoid having to spoil > Harry too? > > --Eric Oppen I think both boys would have more normal childhoods, with Dudley being not nearly as spoiled as he is and Harry being not nearly as neglected. Not to mention that Harry would have been hanging out with Dudley's gang and might have been witness to bouts of uncontrolled magic when Harry was quite young. But then we wouldn't have had a series.... Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu May 12 20:57:08 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050512205708.95221.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128805 --- quigonginger wrote: > I feel that JKR has combined elements of these two concepts and > merged them into what I will call "vicarious retribution". > [SNIP] > I think that when all is said and done, that Harry will not "pay > back" any of the wrongs done to him, either through circumstance of > by his own choice. I think that JKR doesn't want the readers to > feel > that Draco, Snape, and Dudley have "gotten away with it", so she > takes matters into her own hands. Justice is served, but in a > roundabout way. > > Ginger, whose company is due to arrive at any minute. Gaah! I don't buy it. I think she sticks the episodes in there so the reader enjoys it at the time (Dudley's pigtail, Dudley's ten-ton tongue, Draco's ferrethood) but later on after some time of reflection we realize what we should have seen at the time. Namely that it's wrong to inflict pigtails and mutant tongues on people and that even ferrets can be hurt. There's a lot of that kind of second-thoughtism in OOTP. In the first couple of books, we've seen the ghosts as comic and sympathetic figures. Man, wouldn't it be cool to be a ghost? Come on, how many people envied Myrtle her opportunities to haunt others? But then Harry talks to Nick about Sirius being a ghost and Nick explains and suddenly being a ghost isn't cool, it's kind of....sad...and pathetic. We feel sorry for Nick. Ditto with the VR Ginger describes. We're not supposed to cheer for the acts of violence/humiliation; JKR makes that clear. Arthur Weasley is enraged and shouts at the twins over the tongue toffee, listing real reasons why it was wrong. McGonagall is horrified by the treatment of Draco as a ferret. And Harry is properly shocked by what he sees in the pensieve. I realize that everyone wants to see unpopular characters punished but the big lesson I take from JKR is that being good or bad isn't like Quidditch teams: you don't pick one side and you're that side as long as you wear the team colours. Your goodness or badness depends on your actions and you're constantly affirming or repudiating your goodness or badness with the actions you take every day. There's no one so bad (except Voldemort) who can't be redeemed someday - if they take the right actions for good. Similiarly being a good guy doesn't give you a free ticket to hurt or attack others, even people you don't like or who go after you. Probably the most moral thing JKR affirms in this series is that actions and choices have consequences. You don't get by on good intentions or extenuating circumstances. You make a bad choice, you have to pay sometime down the road. Magda __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 21:24:48 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:24:48 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: <20050512205708.95221.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128806 Magda Grantwich : I realize that everyone wants to see unpopular characters punished but the big lesson I take from JKR is that being good or bad isn't like Quidditch teams: you don't pick one side and you're that side as long as you wear the team colours. Your goodness or badness depends on your actions and you're constantly affirming or repudiating your goodness or badness with the actions you take every day. There's no one so bad (except Voldemort) who can't be redeemed someday - if they take the right actions for good. Similiarly being a good guy doesn't give you a free ticket to hurt or attack others, even people you don't like or who go after you. Alla: Right. I agree. I just don't see how what you wrote excludes the idea of "vicarious retribution'. Bad guys CAN be redeemed, if they make the right choices down the road, but it does not mean that they necessarily WILL be redeemed, if they fail to make the right choices over and over again AND even if they make the right choice eventually at the end, the reader still wants to see them punished for the wrongs they committed ( I am talking about myself only of course), which is not always possible in a normal way. How large is the possibility for example that Draco will be expelled for making racial slurs against Hermione over and over again? There will be nobody to fight with Trio on Hogwarts. He is a weak adversay, but he is getting stronger, I hope at least. How large is the possibility that Draco will be somehow punished for example for campaigning for execution of Buckbeak? I remeber reading post by Amy Z ( I think) in the archives that trying to get Buckbeack executed could be Draco's biggest crime yet. So, we see amasing bouncing ferret and some other things done to him - sort of indirect punishment. How large is the possibility that Dudley will somehow pay for ten years or more of "Harry hunting" by .. I don't know some kind of RL punishment ( Social Services supervision or something) That is not the story JKR writes , but she wants to punish Dudley somehow and we get the pigtail. How large is the possibility that Snape will get fired for emotional abuse he subjects Harry and Neville to routinely? ( Just my opinion, just my opinion, just my opinion :-)) Right, we won't have a story without Snape in Hogwarts, so we take what we can get as punishment. So, what was I getting at? Oh, yes, good guys. OF COURSE those actions are wrong as metaphors for RL punishments,because people need to be punished for the offense they committed by the people who are allowed to do that but at the same time this reader gets immense satisfaction that bad guys get punished SOMEHOW. JKT does not give good guys FREE ticket to hurt people, IMO, but the fact that they punish characters who are so obviously guilty fo wrongdoings ( IMO only) allows them to remain good guys. Just my opinion of course, Alla From dad at pratthobbies.com Thu May 12 20:48:33 2005 From: dad at pratthobbies.com (Doug Pratt) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 20:48:33 -0000 Subject: I can't do the math! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128807 Yes, I actually am a rocket scientist...but I am having problems getting my head around some of the dates in the HP canon. Let me see if I have this right. Tom Riddle and Hagrid were in school together, although not necessarily the same year. Hagrid gets expelled and Dumbledore persuades Dippet to train him as gamekeeper. Malfoy, Arthur Weasley and Molly Soon-to-be-Weasley were in school at around the same time. Molly tells stories about Ogg, the gamekeeper before Hagrid, to Harry when she visits him at school. Maybe Hagrid was Ogg's assistant while Malfoy, the Weasleys and the Marauders were in school? Riddle graduated, disappeared for a while, and reappeared as Voldemort. He was a serious threat to the MOM and the WW for eleven years. That threat ended when Harry stopped him at GH, just before the opening chapter of Book One. How old was Harry? Young enough to sleep wrapped in a blanket on a doorstep, so I would think under 1 year, based on my own experiences trying to get kids to sleep... In between the time Riddle graduated and reappeared, Lucius, Arthur, Molly and the Marauders get through school. Arthur gets a job with the Ministry and the Weasleys get their family started. There is enough time in between this and the events of Book One for two Weasleys to be born, get through adolescence, graduate from Hogwarts, and get jobs...and for four more Weasleys to be born. Has anyone tried to diagram this out or make a timeline? It's beyond my poor little mind... Doug Pratt From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 12 21:37:46 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:37:46 -0000 Subject: Choose right over what is easy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128808 > Tonks: > As the author of "For > Whom the Bell Tolls" said "never seek to know for whom the bell > tolls it tolls for thee". Therefore do something. Speak up, act to > stop it, do what you can even thought it is very difficult. And I > think that it also means "do what is right even if it means losing > your own life". > It was actually John Donne who said this, not Hemingway. And I think it means something else: it conveys the sense of (in?)significance of a single man's life during the major historical conflicts. a_svirn From scolere at gmail.com Thu May 12 17:37:54 2005 From: scolere at gmail.com (Sass) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:37:54 +0100 Subject: HBP deluxe edition cover In-Reply-To: <1115898692.13148.51966.m29@yahoogroups.com> References: <1115898692.13148.51966.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128810 Kay D writes: > I wonder what DD and Harry would be doing in the Forbidden Forest? > > Maybe it is the forest where LV went to hide? Did he also > practice the dark arts there before his rise to power? > They could be in the forbidden forest to recruit the centaurs or > check on Gwarp? Or it could be to find a whole new creature > group. Wonder if the Anglia car will resurface? Did Umbridge > come out of the forest? Er, did you not *read* the end of OoP ? (*grins*) If you had, you wouldn't have asked that question because we see Umbridge in the hospital wing, whilst Harry's visiting Ron and Hermione (with Luna, Neville and Ginny) (chapter 38, 'The Second War Begins') after Dumbledore goes into the Forbidden Forest alone and rescues her, and just a few pages later we hear of her trying to sneak out of Hogwarts, and being chased and whacked by Peeves, who's armed with Prof. McGonagall's walking stick and a sock full of chalk ! > What exactly is LV seeking? I'm guessing it is no longer eternal > life? Does he want to rule the wizarding world, and ultimately > the Muggles? World domination/subjugation of the "lesser peoples" - the same things that *any* Dark Lord wants ! Or indeed any RL dictator whom you care to name ! > Has anyone given thought to the possibility that Hagrid's umbrella > is actually his wand? (Rather than his wand being hidden within) I've always assumed that Hagrid's wand had been disguised as an umbrella... > Would LV have been around 40 when he rose to power and Harry's > parents were 11ish? OK, let's do the sums. In CoS, we learn Tom Riddle had taken 5 years to find out everything he could about the Chamber. Assuming that he started his research when he arrived at Hogwarts, age 11, he was 16 when it was opened (and we know that his diary preserves his 16 year old self). That was 50 years from the point at which Harry is aged 12 (and so LV is then 66). We know that LV lost power 11 years before that point (making him 55), but that he had risen to power 11 years before that (from what Prof. McGonagall says to Prof. Dumbledore in PS/SS, so unless my maths is totally out (which it quite easily could be) and assuming that the dates are exact (which they might not be), LV was 44 at the time he rose to power. (Now my head hurts, but hey, the result of re-reading the HP series (and in reverse publication order), means that all this is fresh in my brain to answer this question !) Sass -- "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 12 21:48:55 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:48:55 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK/Gluttony In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: Gerry: > What we see in Hogwarts is what I know from my school (age 12-18). > People usually hang out with their peers, not with much older children > as they are not interested in having younger ones around them. Unless > there is a family connection. In case of Harry, we see him having > contact with Fred and George through Ron, and a bit with the memebers > of his Quidditch team. Geoff: I would tend to agree. I went to an all-boys day grammar school in South London. There was a great deal of mixing which went on outside the classrooms. There was a cafeteria system for meals so you went in when you wanted to which allowed for interaction between different years. There were a lot of out-of-school societies and clubs and you would mix with pupils of different years there. For example, I was a fairly keen chess player at that time and as a First or Second year pupil would often find myself playing (and probably being thrashed) by a Fourth, Fifth or even Sixth Former. For games afternoons, two years at a time would often go - usually close combinations like First/Second Years, Third/Fourth and so on. this sort of structure was encouraged by the school. From patientx3 at aol.com Thu May 12 21:52:43 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:52:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128812 Neri (hugely snipped): >>G) We also know that DD had corresponded with Petunia before, but it doesn't look like he did during the 24hrs, because Petunia was in a very good mood when Vernon was back from work.<< Snow replied: > How about Dumbledore met with Petunia after Vernon had gone off for > the day. [snip] > Dumbledore used Petunia/Lily's blood to bind the > contract that when she picked the baby up in her arms the contract > was activated and Harry was protected by both his mother's blood > and Petunia's home. (Dumbledore didn't need Harry, just the family > blood that ran through Harry's veins also.) [large snip] > Dumbledore and Petunia together plan > the arrival of Harry along with the letter that accompanied him so > that Vernon was totally unaware of neither Petunia and Dumbledore's > meeting nor the pact between them. Rebecca: Great theory Snow! It fits very well with canon and explains why Dumbledore would have been away from Harry/Hagrid all day. Its perfect except for one thing. OotP heavily implies that the agreement was made in a letter: (emphasisis mine) "`But she took you,' Dumbledore cut across him. `She may have taken you grudgingly, furiously, unwillingly, bitterly, yet still she took you, and in doing so, *she sealed the charm I placed upon you*. Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you.' [snip] Your aunt knows this. *I explained what I had done in the letter I left, with you, on her doorstep*. She knows that allowing you houseroom may well have kept you alive for the past fifteen years.' " Unless Dumbledore was lying or bending the truth there, he explained Petunia's end of the deal in a letter, not in person. Also, he implies (the words "charm I placed on you") that he personally placed a charm on Harry, but that doesn't make sense either. His reaction to Harry and Hagrid is one of someone who hasn't seen either person all day. He certainly didn't place any charms during the brief scene before putting Harry on the doorstep, so what is he talking about? When was it placed? My only theory (and I'll admit that its unlikely) is that he placed the charm on the *letter*, and it became sort of like a contract. The moment that she took Harry in (in other words made Privet Drive his home, perhaps whenever her or Vernon cleaned out the cupboard and put Harry there), that sealed the charm. The whole thing is sort of confusing. Dumbledore says its the same ancient magic that started when Lily died to save Harry, so why would a charm be needed at all? We know whatever it needed to work was done either by her simply dying for him or by something done beforehand, so why would something additional be needed? -Rebecca / HunterGreen From parisfan_ca at yahoo.com Thu May 12 19:11:13 2005 From: parisfan_ca at yahoo.com (laurie goudge) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 12:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dudley and Harry In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050512191113.50723.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128813 Eric Oppen: > What if Dudley had taken right to his little cousin > from the minute he first saw Harry, and damn-well > _insisted_ on Harry getting commensurate > treatment with him? Would this have resulted in > Harry growing up just as spoilt as Dudley, or > would the Dursleys have throttled back on > Dudley-spoiling, just to avoid having to spoil Harry > too? laurie comments: That IS an interesting thought. MY take on Petunia is that most likely she would have squashed any interest Dudley had in Harry simply due to he (Harry) is Lily's son and would probably have had a coronary if she had to pamper Harry as well as Dudley. laurie From patientx3 at aol.com Thu May 12 22:08:04 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:08:04 -0000 Subject: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128814 Doug Pratt wrote: >>Let me see if I have this right. Tom Riddle and Hagrid were in school together, although not necessarily the same year. Hagrid gets expelled and Dumbledore persuades Dippet to train him as gamekeeper.<< Rebecca: I believe Tom Riddle was in his sixth year when Hagrid was in his third, so they are very close in age. Doug: >> Malfoy, Arthur Weasley and Molly Soon-to-be-Weasley were in school at around the same time. Molly tells stories about Ogg, the gamekeeper before Hagrid, to Harry when she visits him at school. Maybe Hagrid was Ogg's assistant while Malfoy, the Weasleys and the Marauders were in school? << Rebecca: The Weasley parents were probably *not* in school the same time as the mauraders, unless Arthur and Molly were already having kids before they graduated. I think you're right about Hagrid being an assistant to Ogg when Molly and Arthur were in school. Ogg may or may not have left before James et al came to Hogwarts (we do know that Hagrid knew them well enough and was quite fond of them). Doug: >>Has anyone tried to diagram this out or make a timeline? It's beyond my poor little mind...<< Rebecca: I think the Lexicon might help you out here. http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/main/timeline_1970-1990.html If you exclude the Weasley parents from being the same age as Harrys parents then it makes a lot more sense. From redlena_web at yahoo.com Thu May 12 22:15:13 2005 From: redlena_web at yahoo.com (redlena_web) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:15:13 -0000 Subject: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128815 Doug Pratt wrote: > Maybe Hagrid was Ogg's assistant while Malfoy, the Weasleys > and the Marauders were in school? RedLena: I don't have the time at the moment to sort of the whole time line, but it seems that you're assuming that the Weasleys were in school at the same time as Lily, James, and the rest of the Marauders. I think this assumption is incorrect. The Weasleys are more likely to be a number of years older than the Potters. Doug Pratt wrote: > How old was Harry? Young enough to sleep wrapped in a > blanket on a doorstep, so I would think under 1 year, > based on my own experiences trying to get kids to sleep... RedLena: As already pointed out by Geoff in a reply to you, Harry was 15 months old when he was left on the Dursley doorstep. I have a 20 month old son and I agree that it's not realistic to think a 15 month old would be swaddled in blanket sleeping peacefully. I've always just put that aside as an iconic image used with a degree of literary license. But also, every kid is different so I suppose maybe Jo's first child could have sleep peacefully wrapped in a blanket at that age and that was her frame of reference. -- RedLena From andrew at rgmm.co.uk Thu May 12 21:52:26 2005 From: andrew at rgmm.co.uk (Andrew Pepper) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:52:26 -0000 Subject: 100 years ago... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128816 moonmyyst: > What happened to that other wizard and quidditch player? > The ones in this century are facing each other. What > happened with the other two? Mecki: > What about Dumbledore and Grindelwald? Just an idea That was dated as 1945 in the first book, of course it may just be a slip of the mind a la Mark Evans, but it's struck me as odd since I read book 1. -Andrew From DANCERWH86 at aol.com Thu May 12 22:25:46 2005 From: DANCERWH86 at aol.com (DANCERWH86 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 18:25:46 -0400 Subject: Combining Students (Was Re: School year system in UK/Gluttony) In-Reply-To: <1115928970.60920.74590.m27@yahoogroups.com> References: <1115928970.60920.74590.m27@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <8C72558ADA9709A-1BC-2296B@mblk-r27.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128817 Gerry wrote: <<<<>>> Speaking from personal experience I can understand the discouraging part especially in the US (since I've never been to a UK school and wouldn't want to speculate). Public and private schools are so different from one another in the US and it seems to me that the public ones are far more discouraging from student interaction within grades. I went to public elementary and middle school (Kindergarden-8th grade...So from ages 5 to 13 give or take). In middle school there was quite a bit of gang activity and at the high school it was just as bad if not worse. As a result the adminstration and on campus cops cracked down (I don't even know if the UK has school security like that). Lunches were much more seperated by grades and the inter grade classes were eliminated. I went to a private school for high school (for this reason...my parents didn't like the idea of the gang problems and their baby in the same school ;) ). There it was just the opposite. We were encouraged to talk to one another. Seniors who had graduated came back to talk about there colleges and we were all freshman to senior encouraged to talk to them. In my senior year I took a class with a lot of sophomores and also a friend took a class that was basically teaching Freshman with another teacher. We had breaks and studies and lunches together (late lunches usually went to juniors and seniors because seniors mostly had last period studies and got to leave so they could leave at lunch instead of hanging around). There was never a concious thought to seperating the groups. I would imagine that Hogwarts being a private institution albeit in the UK it would be quite different than a large public school. Also, the fact that its a boarding school it may be a better idea to encourage interaction in an attempt to rid anamosity from groups. Plus, I know when I was 11 I was intimidated by older kids and stuck with my own friends so the interaction may not be that great. A 17 year old probably isn't spending a lot of time with the 11 year old acquaintance. Just talking from personal experience and conjecture though. Lindsay [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From anurim at yahoo.com Thu May 12 22:03:54 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 15:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050512220355.47072.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128818 Geoff: > Just for completeness. Harry was exactly 15 months > old when Voldemort attacked him at Godric's Hollow. > > He was born on 31/07/81 and Voldemort attacked him > on Hallowe'en 1982 (31/10/82). Hi, Sorry for being thick (on top of a newbie), but I see the Lexicon places Harry's birth in 1980, not 1981. The day when Harry was left with the Dursleys is given in the book as a Tuesday, one week ahead of Bonfire Day, which should place the attack on the night between Monday 26 and Tuesday 27 October. Which is the right date, then? ALuna From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu May 12 22:36:04 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:36:04 -0000 Subject: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: <20050512220355.47072.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mira wrote: > Geoff: > > Just for completeness. Harry was exactly 15 months > > old when Voldemort attacked him at Godric's Hollow. > > > > He was born on 31/07/81 and Voldemort attacked him > > on Hallowe'en 1982 (31/10/82). > > Hi, > > Sorry for being thick (on top of a newbie), but I see > the Lexicon places Harry's birth in 1980, not 1981. > The day when Harry was left with the Dursleys is given > in the book as a Tuesday, one week ahead of Bonfire > Day, which should place the attack on the night > between Monday 26 and Tuesday 27 October. Which is the > right date, then? > > ALuna Hickengruendler: Harry's parents died on Halloween. This is confirmed later in the books. And during Nick's 500th Deathday party in CoS, his deathdate is given as Halloween 1492, making this scene takes place in 1992. Harry is 12 at this points, his parents were killed when he was 15 months, therefore the first chapter of book 1 takes place in 1981, according to this source. There are several other dates in Canon contradicting this. The weekdays are generally problematic. It's obvious JKR didn't pay attention to them, therefore they are plenty of mistakes in them. (For example, both in GoF and OotP September 2nd is a Monday, according to the Lexicon), which obviously is impossible. Generally, it's impossible to bring logic in this, but since the date on the deathday cake is the only concret date given in the book, it's the one most people work with. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 12 22:39:53 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:39:53 -0000 Subject: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doug Pratt" wrote: Doug Pratt: > Riddle graduated, disappeared for a while, and reappeared as > Voldemort. He was a serious threat to the MOM and the WW for eleven > years. That threat ended when Harry stopped him at GH, just before the > opening chapter of Book One. How old was Harry? Young enough to sleep > wrapped in a blanket on a doorstep, so I would think under 1 year, > based on my own experiences trying to get kids to sleep... Geoff: Just for completeness. Harry was exactly 15 months old when Voldemort attacked him at Godric's Hollow. He was born on 31/07/80 and Voldemort attacked him on Hallowe'en 1981 (31/10/81). From beckimajor at yahoo.com Thu May 12 22:19:35 2005 From: beckimajor at yahoo.com (thyladyanwyn) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:19:35 -0000 Subject: Hagrid's wand / James as role model / Harry's methodology / Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128821 Hi. I'm new here and have been reading the posts. One thing that stands out for me all along is that even though Hagrid was cleared in PoA, he was never officially given his wand back. We 'know' that he has his wand in his umbrella though. Another thing is that in OoP, Harry comes to the realisation that maybe he doesn't want to be like his father in that James was too much into the pranks, etc. I think that Harry and Snape will somewhat come to terms with one another (and perhaps gain a healthy respect for one another because: 1. It will prove out that Harry does not want to be as much like James as Snape has him pegged. 2. Harry is already faced with the decision of choosing right or easy. Since Voldemort has already confronted him about his predictibility, Harry will have to change his methodology in the way he deals with things. It is clear to me that Harry and Snape will have to work together, and that Snape will not be allowed to dismiss him as he did during the Pensieve tutilage. Snape is already prepared to do the work he has been requested to do by Dumbledore, and I think that it at least includes tracking down the missing DEs. My four cents' worth... Anwyn From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu May 12 22:44:52 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:44:52 -0000 Subject: 100 years ago... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Pepper" wrote: > moonmyyst: > > What happened to that other wizard and quidditch player? > > The ones in this century are facing each other. What > > happened with the other two? > > Mecki: > > What about Dumbledore and Grindelwald? Just an idea > > That was dated as 1945 in the first book, of course it may just be a > slip of the mind a la Mark Evans, but it's struck me as odd since I > read book 1. > -Andrew Geoff: Perhaps Grindelwald was not considered as great a wizard as Voldemort. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Thu May 12 22:49:13 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 22:49:13 -0000 Subject: Isn't his real name Tom Riddle?(was Precious little to celebrate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > I was reading through SS for the first time in awhile, and something > struck me. Its mentioned twice that the Voldemort times lasted eleven > years. [first was in the above quote, and second when he says "for > eleven years I have been trying to persuade people to call him by his > proper name: /Voldemort/."]ted in a looong time). Marianne: I've also started re-reading the whole series in preparation for HBP, and this is exactly one of the questions that occurred to me. Everyone is scared to death of saying Voldemort, which I think lends too much power to him in everyone's mind. Why, then, didn't DD or the Order or the Ministry simply start calling him Tom Riddle? It's rather a pleasant name, and not at all scary. Did they really go through the entire 11 years not knowing his real identity? Marianne From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 23:11:17 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:11:17 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128824 >>Rebecca: >Of course, the DEs not mentioned might be the older ones, but I wonder why he wouldn't acknowledge the ones he's had the longest? The ones that are mentioned are all ones Sirius mentioned earlier in the book as being part of Snape's 'gang of Slytherins'. So they all had to be in school at the same time as Snape, so they were between the ages of 11 and 18 at the oldest when Voldemort first came to power.< Betsy: Ahh. I'd completely forgotten that Sirius had named several Death Eaters and conveniently given us an age range. And I would think that because no older Death Eaters are mentioned by Voldemort in the graveyard scene, it is logical to assume that JKR means us to see these particular Death Eaters as a social group (especially with the earlier commentary by Sirius). So we're back to your original question of what happened to all the older Death Eaters. It's illogical to think that they were all defeated in VWI. After all, Lupin tells us that the Death Eaters were mopping the floor with the good guys. So I think we're to assume that most Death Eaters who didn't claim Imperius curse were rounded up and sent to Azkaban (not a friendly environment for older wizards and witches, I would think) in the aftermath of Voldemort's disembodiment. (Which would make sense. Voldemort's defeat came out of nowhere. I'm one of the few folks who thinks he's actually a pretty cunning and intelligent adversary so I'm sure many of his people were left wrong footed without his guidance to rely on.) And I think the reason all the surviving Death Eaters are from a similar social circle is because they all followed Lucius Malfoy's lead. I think that we can cautiously start thinking that Lucius is pretty much in charge of this surviving band of evil brothers, and that would further explain why Voldemort didn't Crucio Lucius. Lucius didn't try and find Voldemort, it's true, but he did manage to keep a fairly powerful and well placed group of Death Eaters out of Azkaban and together. Because of Lucius, Voldemort still has a reasonable sized terrorist cell he can send into action. All my opinion of course. Betsy From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu May 12 23:46:59 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:46:59 -0000 Subject: What LV did with his advantage (was Re: Choose right over what is easy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128825 >>Eustace_Scrubb: >Absolutely right on Fudge's folly. And the results could have been quite disastrous. However, on balance, has LV's apparent single- minded focus on the Prophecy a mistake that has evaporated the advantage that Fudge handed him? I wonder.< >Of course we don't yet know what will become of the DEs captured at the Ministry, though Draco may be right that they'll be out soon with no Dementors to feed off them. But for right now, what does LV have to show for his year's headstart? No prophecy, 11 of his followers detained, the intensely-loyal-if-unstable Bellatrix on his hands (along with the diffident Wormtail) and 3 or 4 unnamed followers.< Betsy: But Voldemort has also gained the chaos the WW is now in, plus the fear that comes from realizing that his people got right into the heart of the DoM, probably one of the most protected places in the WW. I agree that things didn't go as planned, and Voldemort would have much prefered to remain hidden in the dark. But can you really blame him for concentrating on finding out the prophecy? After all, it was his ignorance of the prophecy that led to his first defeat. And he has to wonder why his last couple of attempts to kill Harry have failed so miserably. It would have been foolish of him to try and take down Dumbledore and Harry without knowing what's so darn special about the boy. >>Eustace_Scrubb: >The element of surprise is gone now. >I'm not overly impressed with what LV has accomplished during Fudge's year of denial.< Betsy: Well yes, Voldemort cannot be happy with how things turned out in the end. But for a full year he had the WW dancing to his tune. And he had Harry dancing as well. That Harry would turn up at the DoM with a group of students, Voldemort could not have predicted - especially when we remember how insistent Harry was to go it alone (Voldemort seems to know Harry very well). And Voldemort does not seem to realize that Snape is a spy. As far as Voldemort knew, Harry was without adult allies at Hogwarts; the sudden appearance of the Order was also unpredictable. >>Eustace_Scrubb: >_Unless_ Wormtail and the 3-4 other DE escapees have been working on another plan of which Harry and the reader knows nothing as yet. And unless having the Dementors on LV's side is enough by itself to give him the advantage over the Ministry and the Order. >We'll just have to see...< Betsy: Of course we could say *anything* about what the extra Death Eaters have been up to. The jury will have to remain out on that one. I would point out that we *do* know Voldemort was actively and successfully recruiting the Giants, so there was at least *some* multi-tasking going on. And at the very least, having the Dementors on his side means that Azkaban could potentially have a revolving door when it comes to captured Death Eaters, so the only downside to the DoM roundup is the exposure (not an inconsiderable downside, I grant you). Things are not going Voldemort's way, it's true (this is a children's series after all - the bad guy is very unlikely to win). But I don't think it's because Voldemort has acted with extreme foolishness. Doing away with the always 20/20 hindsite, I think Voldemort has acted in a fairly cautious and well thought out manner. Luck, however, is just not on his side. Betsy From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 13 00:11:55 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:11:55 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128826 > Betsy: > So we're back to your original question of what happened to all the > older Death Eaters. It's illogical to think that they were all > defeated in VWI. After all, Lupin tells us that the Death Eaters were > mopping the floor with the good guys. So I think we're to assume that > most Death Eaters who didn't claim Imperius curse were rounded up and > sent to Azkaban (not a friendly environment for older wizards and > witches, I would think) in the aftermath of Voldemort's > disembodiment. (Which would make sense. Voldemort's defeat came out > of nowhere. I'm one of the few folks who thinks he's actually a > pretty cunning and intelligent adversary so I'm sure many of his > people were left wrong footed without his guidance to rely on.) > > And I think the reason all the surviving Death Eaters are from a > similar social circle is because they all followed Lucius Malfoy's > lead. I think that we can cautiously start thinking that Lucius is > pretty much in charge of this surviving band of evil brothers, and > that would further explain why Voldemort didn't Crucio Lucius. Lucius > didn't try and find Voldemort, it's true, but he did manage to keep a > fairly powerful and well placed group of Death Eaters out of Azkaban > and together. Because of Lucius, Voldemort still has a reasonable > sized terrorist cell he can send into action. All my opinion of > course. > We don't know for sure if indeed something happened to them. There were about 30 DE in the Graveyard, and we've been told only about a dozen names. Maybe the rest of the lot is the older and wiser ones, who unlike these young hotheads hadn't got caught during the wars. On the other hand this generation gap does seem strange. We've been told by Tom Riddle that his friends started to call him LV while still in Hogwarts. Well, where are they, those friends? One would have thought that Lucius's father (or mother?) would have been among them, since he has in his possession Tom Riddle's school things. It seems that his parents are not in the picture though, and he is the head "of the house of Malfoy" so to speak. Now, from what we know about wizards' longevity it's kind of unnatural. Even his grandparents should be still alive. It looks as though something or someone wiped out the elder generation of DE. My guess is that there was a kind of coup d'?ta at some point of the DE history, when LV disposed with his old school friends with the assistance of the younger generation. It would also explain why most of those we do know about are from such a close-knit social circle. If originally DE were not such an authoritarian organization, it could have had the same structure as English aristocratic exclusive clubs or secret societies (the DE clique does resemble them in other respects). In this case there could have been several "Masters" each with his own area of influence and they would recruit from different milieus. LV with the little help of Lucius simply cropped the cohorts of Slytherin graduates since 1972 (3?) ? and then threw them into his inner power games. This was probably why Regulus bolted ? being his parents' favorite son, I don't think he suddenly got queasy with the Muggle-torture. But he could have had flinched from the task of eliminating his comrades. a_svirn From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 00:27:06 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:27:06 -0000 Subject: The Killing Quandry -- Prophesy Related Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128827 I'm a bit (OK, more than a bit) fuzzy on what would happen if someone other than Harry killed Voldemort or someone other than Voldemort killed Harry. Could Quirrell have killed Harry without Voldemort being in him? On another post, in response to one of my questons, someone suggested that DD hasn't killed Voldemort because he may fear that will also harm/kill Harry, which makes perfect since, because Harry has Voldy bits in him due to whatever happened to cause the scar and whatever connection they have due to their wands locking. But Voldy has Harry's blood in him, and yet, the reverse doesn't seem to be true, meaning it doesn't seem that Voldemort thinks he would be harmed/killed if someone else kills Harry. Voldemort entered Harry in OOP in order to get DD to try to kill Harry, but even if DD had killed Harry, I don't believe it would have killed Voldemort. He doesn't seem to be the suicidal type. Of course, he may just be wrong since he doesn't know the full prophesy. Speaking of which, the prophecy says that either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. While I believe that either Harry will kill Voldemort or vice versa, I don't see why the prophecy must mean that ONLY Harry can kill Voldemort or that ONLY Voldemort can kill Harry. (No one's going to convince me that DD couldn't kill Voldemort or Harry.) Could the prophesy simply mean that neither Harry nor Voldemort will truly "live" until the other is dead? For the sake of discussion, if it is the case that only Harry can kill Voldemort and vice versa, was that so before their wands locked in GOF? If it wasn't so before GOF, then it seems the locking of the wands is an unprophesied part of the prophesy (unless the locking of the wands was marking Harry as Voldemort's equal?) Hope this babbling makes sense. I'm feeling rather Yogi Berra today. Angie (who feels better know that this is out of her head, and who is leaving town tommorrow and will respond to everyone's excellent posts when she returns) From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 00:33:04 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:33:04 -0000 Subject: HBP deluxe edition cover In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sass wrote: > Kay D writes: > > > I wonder what DD and Harry would be doing in the Forbidden Forest? > > > > Angie replies: Maybe it's just me, but it looks to me as though Harry and DD are standing behind a broken split-rail fence. Could they be in Godric's Hollow, looking at the ruins of the old home-place? From sophierom at yahoo.com Fri May 13 00:36:40 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:36:40 -0000 Subject: Isn't his real name Tom Riddle?(was Precious little to celebrate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128829 > Marianne: > > I've also started re-reading the whole series in preparation for HBP, > and this is exactly one of the questions that occurred to me. > Everyone is scared to death of saying Voldemort, which I think lends > too much power to him in everyone's mind. Why, then, didn't DD or the > Order or the Ministry simply start calling him Tom Riddle? It's > rather a pleasant name, and not at all scary. Did they really go > through the entire 11 years not knowing his real identity? > Sophierom: Here's a section in CoS which somewhat answers your question, if you believe Dumbledore, at least: *** Dumbledore "turned around to the Weasleys, who were looking utterly bewildered. 'Very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle. I taught him myself, fifty years ago, at Hogwarts. He disappeared after leaving the school ...traveled far and wide...sand so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable. Hardly anyone connected Lord Voldemort with the clever, handsome boy who was once Head Boy here'" (CoS, Am. ed., 329). *** The Weasleys, a pure blood family, seem not to be able to connect Tom Riddle to Voldemort until Dumbledore tells them. Indeed, I would guess very few of LV's followers are aware of this connection. This might explain why, in OotP, Bellatrix is so shocked and appalled by Harry's claim that Voldemort is a half-blood (Am. ed., 784). Had they known his real name, the Death Eaters might have been able to find out more about him, and he would have lost his credibility before he'd been able to gain much power. Still, this does beg the question: if the Wizarding World is a fairly small and tight-knit community, how does an outsider - even with a pretentious name like Lord Voldemort - gain power? Apparently his followers recognized his ability to harness dark magic. Probably some don't really care about his heritage so long as he can teach them what they want to learn and give them power. I don't think Rowling is all that interested in Voldemort, aside from his role as supreme villain, but it would be fascinating to discover more of his backstory. Sophierom From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Fri May 13 00:47:54 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:47:54 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128830 Jen, SSSusan, Neri, Potioncat, Alla and Snow were sitting on the beach of Theory Bay with margaritas and bandages. > "You know Neri," Jen remarked casually, "Snape's potion could still > have been used for the protection during the missing-24 hours and > not be redundant. Haven't you ever wondered exactly how Harry is > protected at Hogwarts?" > > Neri surveyed Jen suspiciously. Everyone knew the shiny canon that > Harry was safest at Hogwarts because he was under the watchful eye > of Albus Dumbledore, and due to all the extra precautions there. > > "I find it a bit odd myself, that the one place Harry is safest > besides the blood protection of Privet Drive, is at Hogwarts. > Surrounded by the three people who would be able to administer the > dragon-blood ointment to Harry at verious intervals throughout the > year. Don't you?" At that moment, a thunderous BANG came from the direction of Theory Bay's Canon Museum. "I think we might want to take cover", remarked Neri. "Is it something I sa..." started Jen, but before she could finish a round object landed not three feet from the company, spraying them all with sand. "Oh, it's a can(n)on ball" coughed Jen and picked it up. "There's something written on it". GoF, Ch. 33: "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there. ...Then, of course, there was the Quidditch World Cup. ...I thought his protection might be weaker there, away from his relations and Dumbledore, but I was not yet strong enough to attempt kidnap in the midst of a horde of Ministry wizards. And then, the boy would return to Hogwarts, where he is under the crooked nose of that Muggle-loving fool from morning until night. So how could I take him?" Jen tossed the can(n)on ball away. "This does sound as if the `ancient magic' part refers to the protection at the Dursleys", she admitted. "Yes," said Neri, "and if so it could be the dragon blood ointment employed during the 24hrs without being redundant. Only in this case, how can Harry's eyes be the weak link in the protection at the Dursleys' house?" While Jen was pondering this, SSSusan said: > Ack, I think there must be something else missing, Neri. While > things could definitely have happened as you've outlined here in 1 > (which I snipped) or 2, I can't get past the bizarreness of DD > placing the charm on Harry somewhere after GH and before Privet Drive > (presumably Hogwarts) but then still having *Hagrid* transport Harry > to Privet Drive while he (DD) simply apparates there later. > > Sure, he might have had more business to attend to in the intervening > hours, but if the charm was in place, why not just deliver Harry > then? Plus, I'm back to your point A, which was this: > > >>> A) DD didn't meet Hagrid, or even had a chance to communicate > with him in detail during the 24hrs, because when Hagrid appears at > the Dursleys' he has to tell DD where he got the motorcycle and that > he didn't have problems taking Harry out of the house. Unless they're > both putting a show, of course, but for whom? For McGonagall? Besides, > Hagrid isn't good at this kind of stuff.<<< > > > I just don't see why DD would put on a show about the motorcycle. > But if Hagrid had already brought Harry to DD for charm application, > DD would *know* about the mechanism of transport, no? So it doesn't > quite seem to fit. "Oh", said Neri, "I think you misunderstood my Scenario 2. In this Scenario both Hagrid and Harry never meet DD. DD sent Hagrid a message to stop on the way. It could be at the Longbottoms house like Snow suggested or anywhere else, and Hagrid and Harry spent there most of the day while DD was away at Hogwarts. During that time DD placed the protection magic on Harry from afar. This would make sense if the protection magic doesn't require the protected person to be present, but it does require some heavy and/or delicate machinery that would be difficult to transport from Hogwarts, which is why I thought about the silvery instruments. Now that I think about it... try this one: Snape prepared ink from the dragon blood, and DD used it to write the letter to Petunia. Once Petunia would read the letter and take Harry the magical pact would be sealed. It's similar to the Fidelius charm and the jinx Hermione put on the DA member list. This would explain why DD didn't need either Hagrid or Harry before they met at Number 4, Privet Drive." Just as Neri was saying this, a big owl swooped down on him and dropped a letter right on his head (addressed "Obsessive Nitpicker, The Beach, Theory Bay"). Neri opened it and read: Rebecca / HunterGreen already wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128812 > My only theory (and I'll admit that its unlikely) is that he placed > the charm on the *letter*, and it became sort of like a contract. The > moment that she took Harry in (in other words made Privet Drive his > home, perhaps whenever her or Vernon cleaned out the cupboard and put > Harry there), that sealed the charm. "Well", sighed Neri "I did think about it even before I'd read Rebecca's theory, which just goes to show it's very reasonable. Why do you think it's an unlikely theory, Rebecca? I'd say it has more canon support than the ointment." Potioncat, however, was ready to defend the Potions master's honor with a new theory: > Picture this: Hagrid delivers Baby Harry to Snape, possibly at > Hogwarts. Hagrid runs an errand within the castle (meeting > McGonagall, but not telling her Harry is there.) Snape treats the > wound on Harry's head with the dragon blood ointment, wrapping a > bandage around Harry's head. He wraps it tightly and it hurts. Baby > Harry doesn't like that one bit! Finally Hagrid comes back and takes > Harry on the pleasant bike ride. > > Back to the dream: The sorting hat merges with the turban which > becomes the forgotten bandage. Snape looking past Quirrell's turban > recalls to Harry's mind Snape applying a turban to his head. It makes > his head hurt and jolts a memory of the real cause of the injury, > high laughter and a green light. > > TURBAN! Tying Unguent 'Round Baby 'Arry's Noggin. "Cool acronym", grinned Neri. "However, if it were Snape and Hagrid that did everything, it would be a bit pretentious of DD to say that he placed the charm on Harry, and this would hardly be in character". Neri From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri May 13 01:46:03 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 01:46:03 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: <20050512205708.95221.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > Your goodness or badness depends on your actions and you're > constantly affirming or repudiating your goodness or badness with > the actions you take every day. There's no one so bad (except > Voldemort) who can't be redeemed someday - if they take the right > actions for good. Similiarly being a good guy doesn't give you a > free ticket to hurt or attack others, even people you don't like or > who go after you. I'd add a qualifier: I think it's not only your actions, but your character that matter for JKR. Character includes the immediate intentions and motivations behind actions, but also the more abstract ones (is something done out of duty, to obey a law, or because it corresponds to a virtue--those are the three main threads in modern ethics). Take Draco. Draco has done mostly petty schoolboy things, although as Alla points out downthread (and has been discussed in the past), the execution of Buckbeak is more major than we might give it credit for. Some have argued that the Twins have done more overt damage than Draco. Why do they get a comparatively free pass from the author? They aren't motivated by malice and an ideology of hatred in the way that Draco is. Draco's character is not a good one, and he has so far evinced a lack of interest in cultivating virtues. Hagrid screws up, but his intentions and thus his character are solid--and Dumbledore trusts in him because of his character. Choices show character in the Potterverse; choices don't make it. (Alas). How this works out with our more contentious characters remains to be seen; but I suspect that those who act for the wrong reasons, whatever the results of the actions, are going to end up getting the short end of the stick in authorial treatment. -Nora had this insight the other day about Rowling as a virtue ethicist, and finds it discomforting but if the shoe fits... From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Thu May 12 17:43:13 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 13:43:13 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Re - School year system in the UK/Gluttony References: Message-ID: <428395B1.000012.02084@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 128832 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: (Snip)> Kindergarteners had recess alone. First and second > together, third and fourth, and fifth and sixth, were > paired. 7-12 all had recess together at the same time. > So, what you're suggesesting seems odd to me. I can sort of get the separate common rooms (or at least two common rooms, one for older, one for younger) but beyond that it just seems strange. Tonks: Well I didn't realize that there was so much variety is the US. I went to school back in the dark ages in a small town. We had different building for the K-6, 7-8, and 9-12. And 7-12 did not have recess. Can you imagine the sorts of trouble that age group could get into by having recess? And this was in the 50's, early 60's, when the worst that would happen is some older kids might sneek off to have a cigarette. I can't imagine it today! Kids in what the US calls Jr. High (7 & 8) would pick up some very bad ideas from kids in 9-12. And that(Jr.High) is the age group that are most impressionable, so IMO they should be kept seperate. Younger than 7th grade just need to be protected more from everyone. I can't imagine that there wouldn't be some serious problems with mixing all of these grades. Of coures, in the old days... when my parents went to school they had the old one room country school and everyone was there. But those were much different days and I think that kids were more mature back then. Donna says: I admit I'm old. My first pet was, after all, a pterodactyl. When I started school, kindergarden was a place for the rich to get rid of their little ones for half a day. Depending on what school district we attended (I attended 3 schools within 6 weeks once), recess was either separated by sex or enjoyed by all grades. Recess stopped after grade 6. From 7 on gym (phys ed) was segregated by sex and separate gyms. Lunches were by class and time with all eating within a certain time frame. Schools were K-6 (elementary), 7-9 (jr. high - now middle), and 10-12 high. Once in high school, there could be students from all three grades in an elective class. If I remember correctly, at Hogwarts dorms are separated by sex and year. The prefects and, I assume, headpersons share separate bathrooms from the general population. But the common rooms are just that, common rooms within each house shared by all ages and grades. Required classes are set up by year with elective classes starting in year 3. As far as eating goes, I see nothing wrong with "healthy" eating as demonstrated at Hogwarts. The students must walk and/or climb many stair cases to get to class. HHR always seem to be running somewhere. There appears to be very little, if any, eating between meals with the only exception being special parties in the common rooms with food "nicked" from the kitchens. With all that exercise between classes, I can't see any of the students over eating, just eating healthy for healthy bodies. From hambtty at triad.rr.com Fri May 13 02:41:19 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 02:41:19 -0000 Subject: Tom Riddle to LV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128833 BG writes: The email regarding Tom Riddle and his transformation into LV made me think about an interview with JKR. She said she has volumes on her characters - even on some who were never fully developed in the books. Dean Thomas was the focus of the quote I remembered and found online (see below). So you know she has volumes on LV and the other characters we have come to know, love or hate. I for one, hope she publishes these character bio's once she has completed the series. "When it came to the casting on the film version of 'Philosopher's Stone', however, I told the director, Chris, that Dean was a black Londoner. In fact, I think Chris was slightly taken aback by the amount of information I had on this peripheral character. I had a lot of background on Dean, though I had never found the right place to use it. His story was included in an early draft of 'Chamber of Secrets' but then cut by me, because it felt like an unnecessary digression. Now I don't think his history will ever make it into the books. Dean is from what he always thought was a pure Muggle background. He has been raised by his mother and his stepfather; his father walked out on the family when Dean was very young. He has a very happy home life, with a number of half-brothers and sisters. Naturally when the letter came from Hogwarts Dean's mother wondered whether his father might have been a wizard, but nobody has ever discovered the truth: that Dean's father, who had never told his wife what he was because he wanted to protect her, got himself killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them. The projected story had Dean discovering all this during his school career. I suppose in some ways I sacrificed Dean's voyage of discovery for Neville's, which is more important to the central plot." JKR From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 13 02:45:12 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 02:45:12 -0000 Subject: What LV did with his advantage (was Re: Choose right over what is easy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Eustace_Scrubb" wrote: > I'm not overly impressed with what LV has accomplished during Fudge's > year of denial. _Unless_ Wormtail and the 3-4 other DE escapees have > been working on another plan of which Harry and the reader knows > nothing as yet. And unless having the Dementors on LV's side is > enough by itself to give him the advantage over the Ministry and the > Order. Gerry Well, we don't kow everything he has done. We only know the things the Order found out and communicated to Harry or the things that became public. But as LV spent time and resources to get the giants on his side, and the dementors I cannot imagine him having done nothing on the wizard recruiting level, found new spies in strategic places like the MoM. Especially as the OoP has done the same, though not very succesful. My guess is that LV knew he could not hide forever. He wanted the prophesy so he could plan his grand entree and the following fight on his terms. Gerry From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri May 13 02:55:22 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 02:55:22 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > > How this works out with our more contentious characters remains to be > seen; but I suspect that those who act for the wrong reasons, > whatever the results of the actions, are going to end up getting the > short end of the stick in authorial treatment. > I take it you mean, among others, our beloved Potions Master? Chuckle. Just calling a spade a spade. I tend to agree with you. Rowling DOES care a great deal about character and virtue, and I suspect that is going to become clearer as we move on. To introduce another concept into this, let me bring up the idea karma (not in the formal sense but simply in the sense that people's fates in literature are often revealed in their character). Rowling tends to be big into karmic justice. Given that, fate is predicted in the large by character, although not in detail. Now, and I think we will find this very important for Rowling, how is character itself revealed? In choices, true, but in what kind of choices? Just the big ones? No, I suspect it is revealed as much, if not more, in the everyday choices, especially the hundreds of interactions we have on a routine basis. Thus Draco's racist remarks, Snape's classroom snarkiness, and Hagrid's small kindnesses are going to matter, I think, more than a lot of people think they will -- or want them to. Lots of readers like to say that Rowling draws a distinction between nice and good. I'm not at all sure she does. Often I suspect that is a distinction the reader draws and then reads into the story. Whether Rowling sees things that way or not will be revealed in the final two books. Lupinlore From stix4141 at hotmail.com Fri May 13 03:39:57 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 03:39:57 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128836 HunterGreen mused: Unless Dumbledore was lying or bending the truth there, he explained Petunia's end of the deal in a letter, not in person. Also, he implies (the words "charm I placed on you") that he personally placed a charm on Harry, but that doesn't make sense either. My only theory (and I'll admit that its unlikely) is that he placed the charm on the *letter*, and it became sort of like a contract. The moment that she took Harry in (in other words made Privet Drive his home, perhaps whenever her or Vernon cleaned out the cupboard and put Harry there), that sealed the charm. at which stickbook quips: A few years ago there was a similar idea that was bandied about, but I don't know that it ever got it's own proper acronym. The theory was that Petunia kept the letter and that ever since it's been hidden under the first stair. Or maybe it was the second stair, I can't remember. Anyway, that's why that stair creaks. There was never any real canon to go on, other than the fact that it seems to be mentioned an awful lot for a single stair. Does anyone else remember this discussion? It would be very interesting if that letter is the magical object that insures the Dursley's house against WW unpleasantness. From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Fri May 13 04:45:43 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:45:43 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128837 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I'm picking Albus Dumbledore for this one, although I think one or more of the Weasleys are in danger (perhaps Molly?) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I picking someone related to Harry ? so I'm saying `the old lion guy' who I'm predicting will somehow be related to Harry through his father's side. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) If there is a big secret, I think it will be something to do with Lily and Petunia's relationship. It will be related to Lily's eyes and the protection she gave Harry when she died. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Dumbledore. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I think he might be pushed/ encouraged into a relationship (of sorts) with Ginny by Ron (and perhaps other Weasleys) but this will be shortlived. Ultimately I think his serious relationship will be with Hermione in book 7. I also think we'll see Harry examining his feelings for Hermione by the end of the book (as his subconscious feelings become more conscious). This will cause friction with Ron. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 Predictions 1. Ron will make a move on Hermione in some way and be turned down. This may take the form of one date or a talk or something similar that is related to us only `after-the-fact'. 2. Ron and Harry will experience a serious rift in their friendship with each other (more serious than the GoF fight). Harry will be Quidditch captain and this rift will play itself out somehow on the Quidditch field. 3. The time-turner will be back (or some other form of time travel will play a role) 4. Wormtail will return and we'll see his life-debt to Harry play itself out. 5. We'll learn about a secret Hermione's been keeping. There may be information about her parents that comes as a surprise. I think too that Hermione will be in danger in this book from a surprise attack or perhaps to a personal attack by Rita. That's it for me! :) Sienna From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 05:42:04 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 05:42:04 -0000 Subject: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doug Pratt" wrote: > Yes, I actually am a rocket scientist...but I am having problems > getting my head around some of the dates in the HP canon. > > Let me see if I have this right. Tom Riddle and Hagrid were in school > together, although not necessarily the same year. Hagrid gets expelled > and Dumbledore persuades Dippet to train him as gamekeeper. Malfoy, > Arthur Weasley and Molly Soon-to-be-Weasley were in school at around > the same time. Carol responds: I'm sure that by now you've consulted the Lexicon, but just in case you haven't--Tom Riddle aka Voldemort is about 66 at the time of "Chamber of Secrets"; Lucius Malfoy is 41 at the end of "Goblet of Fire." He's about five years older than the Marauders and Snape, nowhere near the same age as Riddle/Voldemort and the slightly younger Hagrid. The Weasleys are problematic, but they seem to be even older than Voldemort. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 05:58:15 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 05:58:15 -0000 Subject: Choose right over what is easy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128839 Tonks wrote: > > As the author of "For Whom the Bell Tolls" said "never seek to know for whom the bell tolls it tolls for thee". Therefore do something. Speak up, act to stop it, do what you can even thought it is very difficult. And I think that it also means "do what is right even if it means losing your own life". > > > a_svirn responded: > It was actually John Donne who said this, not Hemingway. And I think it means something else: it conveys the sense of (in?)significance of a single man's life during the major historical conflicts. Carol adds: I happen to have a link to "Devotions upon Emergent Occasions, #17," the Donne sermon in question. If the spelling gets in the way of comprehending it, try the audio link at the bottom. It's a beautiful thing, worth listening to for the poetic imagery and power of the language. Whether it can be thematically related to the Potter books, I don't know. I confess I haven't made the effort. http://www.global-language.com/devotion.html Want to give it a shot, Tonks? Or a-svirn, or anybody? (Geoff?) Carol From bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 06:15:57 2005 From: bbkkyy55 at yahoo.com (bbkkyy55) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:15:57 -0000 Subject: Isn't his real name Tom Riddle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128840 Marianne said: > snip > Everyone is scared to death of saying Voldemort, which I think lends too much power to him in everyone's mind. Why, then, didn't DD or the Order or the Ministry simply start calling him Tom Riddle? It's rather a pleasant name, and not at all scary. Did they really go through the entire 11 years not knowing his real identity? Bonnie now: This is rather a negative point of view, but maybe DD didn't exactly want it broadcasted around that a former Hogwart's headboy became Lord Voldemort. DD must feel responsible to a certain degree, maybe feeling like he might have been able to do something to direct Tom's efforts in a more positive direction, etc. DD always seems a little sad when he is referring to Tom Riddle. From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Fri May 13 06:40:18 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:40:18 -0000 Subject: Cedric's death and Dumbledore Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128841 Dumbledore's address to the school is rightly stimulating comments. The message to be remembered by the school is, surely, that simply being a good person with outstanding personal qualities did not save Cedric, because he was totally unprepared for his encounter with the powers of evil. In other words, constant vigilance! Cedric didn't make his choice; he was unaware that he should. And, in life as in law, ignorance was no defence. It would be very harsh on Cedric to assume that he failed in some way. But rather that implication than the prospect of having more deaths (and worse) among the students because they were unprepared. Or because they made inaccurate assumptions. Has there ever been a teenager who hasn't thought: "It can't happen to me"? Or who hasn't indulged in dangerous, reckless, thoughtless behaviour? Isn't the assumption there that, more or less: I'm a nice person, I don't deserve bad luck, I'm just doing (whatever) this one time, it'll be fine. And doesn't that leave a gap in their defences that LV could drive a fleet of assault brooms through? Here in South Africa we experienced over 20 years of civil unrest before finally achieving democracy. And at the beginning of that period, the emotions of a crowd of black people just boiled over on one occasion and they became, for a time, murderously violent and destructive. A car with a white woman in it - an aid worker - was stopped and she was killed. Innocent victim, like Cedric, so far. But when she realised what was happening, she shouted out: "I'm English!" - wrongfully believing that the crowd would only target Afrikaans-speaking whites (identified with the then government) and that she'd therefore be safe. I have always been horrified and, yes, embarrassed by her story, and hoped that if I ever got into a similar situation I wouldn't do the same. But in fact all she could do was die; her choices had run out. It is confusing, like the situation in the graveyard. But DD's other message, besides the good old Be Prepared, is surely the educator's favourite: knowledge is power. Know what you are actually facing, and it will be easier for you. Deborah, with a bleak post today. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri May 13 06:50:33 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 06:50:33 -0000 Subject: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: Hickengruendler: > Harry's parents died on Halloween. This is confirmed later in the > books. And during Nick's 500th Deathday party in CoS, his deathdate > is given as Halloween 1492, making this scene takes place in 1992. > Harry is 12 at this points, his parents were killed when he was 15 > months, therefore the first chapter of book 1 takes place in 1981, > according to this source. Geoff: This date is confirmed quite early in the development of the story by Hagrid. '"Maybe he (Voldemort)thought he could persuade 'em... maybe he just wanted 'em outta the way. All anyone knows is, he turned up in the village where you was all living, on Hallowe'en ten years ago. You was just a year old. He came ter yer house an' - an' -" Hagrid suddenly pulled out a very dirty, spotted handkerchief and blew his nose with the sound like a foghorn. "Sorry," he said. "But it's that sad - knew yer mum an' dad, an' nicer people you couldn't find - anyway - You-Know-Who killed 'em."' (PS "The Keeper of the Keys" p.45 UK edition) From s_ings at yahoo.com Fri May 13 07:44:06 2005 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 07:44:06 -0000 Subject: Deadline for The Witching Hour Submissions Approaching Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128843 NEWS RELEASE FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE DEADLINE FOR THE WITCHING HOUR SUBMISSIONS APPROACHING Gather your theories, thoughts and speculations by 11:59 p.m. EST May 15 Pick up your quill and get to work ? the deadline for submitting presentations, panels, round tables, workshops and more to The Witching Hour is quickly approaching. We want to remind everyone that The Witching Hour, an academic symposium in Salem, Mass., from Oct. 6-10, accepts intelligent proposals from anyone. Whether you're a fan with extensive theories on the use of dragons in J.K. Rowling's work, or an academic who wants to talk about perspectives on Draco in the fandom, we're looking for you! Several proposals already have been accepted, including: Presentations Pottermania in the Classroom, Doris Herrmann Snape's Appeal in Canon: Severus, Meet Sherlock, Vivienne D'Avalon MAGUS LEGIS: A Closer Look At 'The Hearing', Cherie del Rio How Dark Is It? ? and How Is It Dark?, Diana Patterson, Mount Royal College Round Tables Left My Heart: Keeping Your OTP Alive in a Changing World, Aja Romano Unfogging the Future ? Predictions for Book 7, C.J. Burnett But we have room for many more! Please make all submissions using our online system located at www.witchinghour.org/submissions. For more information, check out www.witchinghour.org/submissions/ or e-mail programming at witchinghour.org. From patientx3 at aol.com Fri May 13 08:50:37 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 08:50:37 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128844 Betsy wrote: >> And I think the reason all the surviving Death Eaters are from a similar social circle is because they all followed Lucius Malfoy's lead. I think that we can cautiously start thinking that Lucius is pretty much in charge of this surviving band of evil brothers, and that would further explain why Voldemort didn't Crucio Lucius. << Rebecca: Ah, now that makes sense. After all, when Kararoff [sic?] was on trial and throwing out names, all of them had been caught already. In those dark times, probably being openly anti-muggle was pretty suspicious and it wouldn't be hard to connect certain people to certain crimes. It also explains why Malfoy appears to be in such a high position with Voldemort (though he might not be), when he was only 16 when Voldemort first rose to power. Though, on the other hand, there were only three missing DEs who were not mentioned specifically ('three dead in my service') other than the ones who we know (or can assume) to be Crouch Jr., Snape and Karkaroff. Unless there's another empty place in the circle no mentioned, only three DEs from an older generation is pretty small. There's the issue of the Lestranges as well. Why weren't they caught right away? Was Bellatrix's loyalty more hidden right after Voldemort's demise than it was at the trial? We don't know exactly how much time passed between the two events though, it could be they were looking for her (and her brother-in-law and husband) and didn't find them until the attack on the Longbottoms. She doesn't seem the type to just turn tale and listen to Malfoy's advice about fake cases of being imperio-ed. a_svirn wrote: >>We don't know for sure if indeed something happened to them. There were about 30 DE in the Graveyard, and we've been told only about a dozen names. Maybe the rest of the lot is the older and wiser ones, who unlike these young hotheads hadn't got caught during the wars.<< Rebecca: Were there 30 in the graveyard? From the description in the book it seems like 20 at the most, though I could be mistaken. Even so, the only person there who isn't of the younger generation is Nott (almost forgot about him again), only one older Death Eater in attendance points to some severe losses on his side during the beginning of VW1. If he lost a large amount of DEs coming to power, that would explain why he was so interested in dark wizards right out of Hogwarts. a_svirn continued: >>My guess is that there was a kind of coup d'?ta at some point of the DE history, when LV disposed with his old school friends with the assistance of the younger generation. It would also explain why most of those we do know about are from such a close-knit social circle. If originally DE were not such an authoritarian organization<< Rebecca: That's an idea. From what we've seen, Voldemort is not a pleasant person to work for. It would have been difficult to have peers tolerate that type of totalitarian behavior. It makes sense that once he decided (or once he had enough power to) become an unquestioned leader of the group that he purged all the members who wouldn't give him that sort of respect. After all, you don't just "quit" being a death-eater, and he certaintly can't leave any room for an internal uprising. (a note here, I always wonder why anyone would choose the "bad" side in these types of stories, when the bad-side leader is so willing to kill or torture you at the drop of a hat...you'd have to REALLY hate muggle-borns, I suppose). -Rebecca / HunterGreen From lavaluvn at yahoo.com Fri May 13 09:33:12 2005 From: lavaluvn at yahoo.com (Andromeda) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:33:12 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128845 What fun, I just couldn't resist joining in... 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Dumbledore 3. What is Lily's big secret? NOt sure there is one, but I hope we find out if all the harping about her eyes really means anything. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Dumbledore? NO, I'll go with someone new: the old lion guy (who either is Felix or uses the Felix spell) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one important in this book, but his relationship with Ginny will deepen in prep for year 7. ROmantic/comedic moments will center around others for this book. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? For his sake I hope not, he needs to get away from Snape. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Ron & Hermione will finally make some tentative steps toward a relationship, but Viktor's return may complicate things. 2. There won't be any "good Slytherins" (though I hope this one isn't true) 3. Harry is Quidditch captain (he's an experienced player and a good leader - and it might not hurt to give him more leadership experience - though I guess Katie will still be there, so maybe she'll get it). 4. Ron will finally be useful in a confrontation/battle and not just along for moral support(since PS/SS). Ditto for Ginny, two-time victim/target. 5. The new DADA teacher will die. -Andromeda (trying madly to think of some new ones...) From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 13 10:49:33 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 10:49:33 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128846 > > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hmm--mm. Remus Lupin. I believe the rat will kill him. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Someone whose name we do not know as yet or Aberforth Dumbledore. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily's big secret is -- that green things - like eyes - reflect green light (and thus the AK curse)... > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis. But I'd really love to see Aberforth do this, too... > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood - or he'll be to busy to have one. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory or Amelia Bones. I certainly hope it's not Percy! > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve, of course - supposedly Dumbledore's. He and Harry use it to study Occlumency, as well as Legilimency. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Either he got an 'O' or we'll meet a secondary Potions' teacher. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. I suspect Neville wants to be a Healer, so he's going to need to know how to brew Skele-Gro and such... > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? DADA: definately an O and highest grade of the century (or Umbridge is messing with the Educational Committee, but I suspect Professors Marchbanks and Tofty and... will let her). Charms: A pass, at least - an E or O. Patronus is a Charm, too! Transfiguration: E or O. We must have Harry for the NEWT-level Transfiguration. Care of Magical Creatures: O. For someone who happily rides a Hippogriff and is at friendly terms with a Phoenix. Potions: Must pass-- full points for the 'Polyjuice potion'-question at least. Probably an O, despite of Snape's expectations. I think Snape grades them as a NEWT-level! Herbology: Hmm-mm. If they asked about Devil's Snare, Harry got that right. Or about the Mandrakes. I think he'll pass, after all that weeding for Aunt Petunia. Astronomy & Divination: FAIL. (you should have died last tuesday??? and that practical didn't go well, either.) History: Well... depending on how much the exam had questions of Middle Ages & Witch-Burnings, I'm guessing on A/P. Hmm... he fainted. Maybe they'll take that into consideration and give him a pass. So- I'd say 7 out of 9. (the 3 not attempted for Harry are: Muggle Studies, Ancient Runes and Arithmancy... I think Hermione could pass 12 -- no, discount Divination. 11.) > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > > 1. Harry's going to leave Dursleys within the First Chapter, titled Spinner's End, having been a week at most. (OK, we do know it's going to be *shortest* stay ever, but -- I checked the books: It's *always* been Harry's birthday or later that Harry leaves them! it's Harry's birthday in PS, and that's just a short visit until 1st September he *really* leaves. In CoS, Harry's Worst Birthday is a big issue taking several chapters - Dudley teases Harry about not getting any cards... later, Harry leaves; PoA, Harry tried to keep his magic/temper down by thinking a birthday-gift, but Marge *did* blow up; GoF, Harry's living on birth-day cakes due to Dudders' diet; and in OOP, we even get the date: 2nd August (Dementor-attack/Patronus. We got the date from the trial). Now, if Harry would leave at 30th July, it'd STILL be shortest ever. I predict it to be much earlier than Neville's birthday-party. > 2. Hermione will have a big secret: she's learning to become an animagus with McGonagall. This will be the saver in the end of book #6, like her Time-Turner. > 3. Harry will learn effective Legilimency by the end of his 6th year. > 4. We will properly meet Aberforth Dumbledore. > 5. The happier-than-trial-thing will, I believe, be related to Harry's investment to Weasley Wizard Wheezes. Finwitch From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri May 13 12:21:54 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:21:54 -0000 Subject: JKR's website Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128847 ...has been updated. Of much interest is an answer to the "Why didn't the Ministry use Veritaserum?" question, at http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=105 "Veritaserum works best upon the unsuspecting, the vulnerable and those insufficiently skilled (in one way or another) to protect themselves against it. Barty Crouch had been attacked before the potion was given to him and was still very groggy, otherwise he could have employed a range of measures against the Potion - he might have sealed his own throat and faked a declaration of innocence, transformed the Potion into something else before it touched his lips, or employed Occlumency against its effects. In other words, just like every other kind of magic within the books, Veritaserum is not infallible. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial. Sirius might have volunteered to take the potion had he been given the chance, but he was never offered it. Mr. Crouch senior, power mad and increasingly unjust in the way he was treating suspects, threw him into Azkaban on the (admittedly rather convincing) testimony of many eyewitnesses. The sad fact is that even if Sirius had told the truth under the influence of the Potion, Mr. Crouch could still have insisted that he was using trickery to render himself immune to it." Veritaserum can be resisted. It is not considered infallible, but can be argued against in such a way that the testimony from it can always be quibbled with. Crouch was never going to let Sirius have that chance, either. One can use Occlumency against Veritaserum-- oooh, nifty. Discuss! -Nora gets back to finishing the #2 out of 3... From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri May 13 12:25:47 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:25:47 -0000 Subject: Isn't his real name Tom Riddle?(was Precious little to celebrate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128848 > Marianne: > > I've also started re-reading the whole series in preparation for HBP, > and this is exactly one of the questions that occurred to me. > Everyone is scared to death of saying Voldemort, which I think lends > too much power to him in everyone's mind. Why, then, didn't DD or the > Order or the Ministry simply start calling him Tom Riddle? It's > rather a pleasant name, and not at all scary. Did they really go > through the entire 11 years not knowing his real identity? > > Marianne Valky: I think the quote Huntergreen added to her post leads us to the answer to that one. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" > [Dumbledore] when he says > "for eleven years I have been trying to persuade people to call him > by his proper name: /Voldemort/." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it's fair to say that a great deal of what the Order knows about Voldemort is what Dumbledore and his cohort of Magical Sages have discovered slowly through contemplation and study of the evidence. And it is canon that Dumbledore doesn't like to jump to conclusions. If DD had been trying to get the WW to call him Voldemort it may have been because he hadn't yet discovered that he was Tom Riddle. In the quote from COS that Sophierom posted - 'Very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle. I taught him myself, fifty years ago, at Hogwarts. He disappeared after leaving the school ...traveled far and wide...sand so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable. Hardly anyone connected Lord Voldemort with the clever, handsome boy who was once Head Boy here'" - Note that Dumbledore says very few people **know**... not very few people **knew**, and he says that hardly anyone **connected** Voldemort to Tom Riddle, not that this group of 'hardly anyone' had come to a conclusion that he **was** Tom Riddle. So I see JKR has left the gap there for us to discover that DD didn't figure out the whole Tom = Voldemort equation until after VWI or until close to the end of it, by which time the WW was probably in no fit state to make it known. Looking at it this way sheds a new light on the Showdown in the MOM now doesn't it? When Dumbledore directly names Voldemort Tom Riddle, it might be the first time he had been addressed that way in a loooong time. There may have been more power in those words than we knew? "Secret Dumbledore's Business" makes a comeback.. ;D Valky From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri May 13 12:45:56 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 05:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050513124556.63868.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128849 --- dumbledore11214 wrote: > JKT does not give good guys FREE ticket to hurt people, IMO, but > the fact that they punish characters who are so obviously guilty fo > wrongdoings ( IMO only) allows them to remain good guys. > > Just my opinion of course, > > Alla How convenient for the good guys - but what if they happen to be wrong about whether someone is "so obviously guilty of wrongdoings"? Does it somehow not count? After all Barty Crouch Sr. - who was "power mad" (according to JKR's new website update) but still risked a lot fighting DE's - thought Sirius was "so obviously guilty of wrongdoings". Is it really enough just to say "Oooops! My bad!"? There has to be some kind of mechanism to determine guilt/innocence beyond the subjective and possibly incorrect one of common perception. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anurim at yahoo.com Fri May 13 02:45:30 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 19:45:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050513024530.58583.qmail@web32604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128850 1. Who will be the most major character to die? McGonagall, but it's hard to quantify which character is most important. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Salazar Slytherin. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She worked in the DoM, in the Death chamber. She knew, or was very close to know, technical means to achieve immortality (other than PS, perhaps a perpetual rebirth, Phoenix-like). 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Professor Flitwick. One of the twins will teach Charms. Nobody will know which :-) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna. It will come as a major surprise for both of them. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman. He'll charm his way through so that he'll acquire immunity from goblins. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? An object from the Chamber of Secrets, part of the statue or one of the snake pillars or a fountain that hasn't been described (as far as I remember). 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8. Predictions 1. Dudley will start to ask Harry questions about magic. Harry will recruit Dudley for the good cause, and by the end of the books at least Petunia, if not Vernon as well, will become the biggest fans of the wizarding world. 2. Centaurs will make a choice of giving up their observer status for once, and help wizards. 3. One of the good guys will become a DE, possibly in an attempt to vanquish LV on his own. Possibly Percy, but not necessarily. 4. More people will learn to say Voldemort's name aloud. 5. Peter will pay his debt to Harry in HBP, by informing him, either using his Animagus form or indirectly, through the scar connection, that Snape is in danger, that Voldemort has decided to break him and learn secrets of the Order. Harry will hesitate, but will finally decide to help. Pettigrew will die during the whole adventure. And: 6. I'll be in huge trouble tomorrow for staying up so late (this one is sure to come true!) ALuna Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From caseyhrobinson at sbcglobal.net Fri May 13 04:29:36 2005 From: caseyhrobinson at sbcglobal.net (Casey Robinson) Date: Thu, 12 May 2005 21:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP Precition Contest Message-ID: <20050513042936.74808.qmail@web81502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128851 Well I guess I'll make my very first entrance into the group my predictions. I must add that I am so happy to see such intelligent conversation on this group, I've been reading for a week without answering, and wow, you all have some wonderful ideas, beliefs, and insight. > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Mad Eye > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Gordic Gryfindor > 3. What is Lily's big secret? I don't think its the blood love magic everyone is talking about. I just see that as an act of a mom who doesn't want to see her baby die, I don't think she specialized in it or researched it. If Lily has a secret it's more of Petunias secret in that she had some form of contact with Petunia about the Wizarding World. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I'd love to see Lupin, but I think he's better served being part of the Order. THe new DADA could be the real mad eye- but I doubt it. I think the best bet if it's someone who we know is Tonks, whose injuries prevent her from returning to Auror duties, or someone we've never met. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He will have minor flirtations with Cho again, and probably a few others, some Ginny sparks may start to fly, but I don't see a major relationship. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I don't think it could be any of the completey suppotive of DD or Fudge, so I will say probably Amos Diggory - hard line on the law but not unfriendly. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It's some sort of penseive, but I don't think the thoughts come from either Harry or DD - it may be some long lost penseive, or maybe we find out that someone's thoughts can be taken from a pensieve and put into your own brain, a transference of memory. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes - the idea of killing Harry's dream of being an Auror this early would just be dumb. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes - Neville's confidence is rising and the idea of a Neville Longbottom auror just sounds intriguing. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Harry got all he could possibly get minus of course Divination. SO that would be Care of Magical Creatures, DADA, Charms, Transfiguration, Potions, Herbology, and Astronomy, History of Magic. yes he scraped by in Astronomy with a great score on the theory. SO my answer is 8. Predictions 1. Ginny Weasely will be made a prefect. 2. We will finally learn the jobs of Lily and James. 3. We will learn the meaning of the word Draco, which is not only Malfoy's name, but in the Hogwart's crest. 4. We will learn what caused the split between Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin 5. We will find out what happened between Umbridge and the Centaurs. Casey [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cat_kind at yahoo.com Fri May 13 13:22:10 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 13:22:10 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: <20050513124556.63868.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128852 Alla: > > JKT does not give good guys FREE ticket to hurt people, IMO, but > > the fact that they punish characters who are so obviously guilty fo > > > wrongdoings ( IMO only) allows them to remain good guys. > > > > Just my opinion of course, > Magda: > How convenient for the good guys - but what if they happen to be > wrong about whether someone is "so obviously guilty of wrongdoings"? > Does it somehow not count? > > After all Barty Crouch Sr. - who was "power mad" (according to JKR's > new website update) but still risked a lot fighting DE's - thought > Sirius was "so obviously guilty of wrongdoings". Is it really enough > just to say "Oooops! My bad!"? > > There has to be some kind of mechanism to determine guilt/innocence > beyond the subjective and possibly incorrect one of common > perception. catkind: Oooh, I do like this theory of Quigonginger's. It makes sense of various HP scenes that previously worried me. Kind of Potterverse meta-morals as opposed to actual Potterverse morals? So you're allowed to punish someone if the all-seeing reader knows they deserve it, with no reference to what the character knows or internal due process or whatever. Maybe it's kind of cheating though, if we have to revert to meta-thinking to explain things. It sends all sorts of confused messages to people who don't understand these rules. Or perhaps children have an intuitive grasp of Vicarious Retribution - they don't think so much about what exactly which characters know as us over-analysing Grown-Ups. The one scene I can't subsume here is the pensieve scene. I don't think the authorial voice is trying to pass that off as Vicarious Retribution, at least to judge by Harry's reaction. Yet it does fit the pattern of doing nasty things to nasty people. Is JKR asking us to question the earlier incidents by making this one so blatant? catkind, who as usual has questions not answers, and is hoping Valky will call it wise :-P From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 14:13:07 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:13:07 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: <20050513124556.63868.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128853 Alla wrote: JKT does not give good guys FREE ticket to hurt people, IMO, but the fact that they punish characters who are so obviously guilty of wrongdoings ( IMO only) allows them to remain good guys. Magda: How convenient for the good guys - but what if they happen to be wrong about whether someone is "so obviously guilty of wrongdoings"? Does it somehow not count? After all Barty Crouch Sr. - who was "power mad" (according to JKR's new website update) but still risked a lot fighting DE's - thought Sirius was "so obviously guilty of wrongdoings". Is it really enough just to say "Oooops! My bad!"? There has to be some kind of mechanism to determine guilt/innocence beyond the subjective and possibly incorrect one of common perception. Alla: I am saying that what matters in this theory, if I am not misunderstanding Guinger is whether JKR and/or reader is sure that character is guilty, not other characters. Sirius' example is actually an interesting one. He obviously was not guilty in betraying the Potters and suffered in Azkaban unjustly. But as Snape fan ( I am not making assumptions here, right? :-))won't you say that some carmic justice was served by Sirius being in Azkaban and that in indirect way he was punished for whatever wrongs he committed towards Snape? Would it be better if he was punished for what he was guilty of? Of course ( I happen to think that somehow he was punished in school, just not expelled), BUT if JKR for whatever purposes chose indirect punishment, it is fine with me. Am I making sense? I am not happy that Sirius was sent to Azkaban because he WAS innocent of betraying Potters, but BECAUSE of that event even if it will turn out that Sirius was always always a villain and Snape was always always a victim in their relationship, I won't like Sirius any less simply because in my mind he paid tenfold for whatever sins he committed against Snape, even if indirectly. Catkind: Kind of Potterverse meta-morals as opposed to actual Potterverse morals? So you're allowed to punish someone if the all-seeing reader knows they deserve it, with no reference to what the character knows or internal due process or whatever. Alla: Well, no, I think of it more like when the plot won't allow the writer to do proper punishment, but when the character needs to be punished nevertheless. ( I hope I am not misstating what Ginger thinks here).It does not mean that all proper punishments are forgotten, when they could be fit in the story. Catkind: Maybe it's kind of cheating though, if we have to revert to meta-thinking to explain things. It sends all sorts of confused messages to people who don't understand these rules. Or perhaps children have an intuitive grasp of Vicarious Retribution - they don't think so much about what exactly which characters know as us over-analysing Grown-Ups. Alla: I think I agree with your last sentence - I don't think that overanalysing is bad, but sometimes children indeed have intuitive grasp of those ideas. I cannot offer statistics, but couple of kids I know had no problem whatsoever with Dudley pigtail for example Catkind: The one scene I can't subsume here is the pensieve scene. I don't think the authorial voice is trying to pass that off as Vicarious Retribution, at least to judge by Harry's reaction. Yet it does fit the pattern of doing nasty things to nasty people. Is JKR asking us to question the earlier incidents by making this one so blatant? Alla: I also said upthread that I don't think that Pensieve scene fits for many reasons, the main one being that Harry was not born yet, so nobody to inflict retribution for. The other thing is that IMO quite a few vicarious retribution punishments are funny ( not all of them of course). Just my opinion of course, Alla From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 14:23:10 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:23:10 -0000 Subject: Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius' trial? WasRe: JKR's website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128854 Nora wrote: Of much interest is an answer to the "Why didn't the Ministry use Veritaserum?" question, at http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=105 Veritaserum can be resisted. It is not considered infallible, but can be argued against in such a way that the testimony from it can always be quibbled with. Crouch was never going to let Sirius have that chance, either. One can use Occlumency against Veritaserum-- oooh, nifty. Discuss! Alla: To tell you the truth, now I am wondering even more whether non-use of Veritaserum was a plot hole. She basically said nothing that fanfiction writers did not predict. Yes, the only way to get out of non-use of the Veritaserum is to say that it is not 100% correct, that it can be resisted, etc. etc. etc. The question is whether she planned it that way from the beginning or she had to come with the answer now,when many fans undoubtedly asked her that. The only new thing is that you can use Occlumency against Veritaserum, but it is also part of resistance, right? Just my opinion, Alla. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 13 14:47:23 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:47:23 -0000 Subject: Isn't his real name Tom Riddle?(was Precious little to celebrate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128855 Marianne: > Everyone is scared to death of saying Voldemort, which I think > lends too much power to him in everyone's mind. Why, then, didn't > DD or the Order or the Ministry simply start calling him Tom > Riddle? It's rather a pleasant name, and not at all scary. Did > they really go through the entire 11 years not knowing his real > identity? SSSusan: One of the more interesting theories I've heard about this (and wish I could remember whom to credit, darn it) is that DD hasn't revealed the connection between Voldy & Tom Riddle because doing so would *hurt* someone he cares about. The suggestion, IIRC, is that someone -- perhaps even Minerva McGonagall -- was married to Tom Riddle, might even have had a family, and that some of the WW knows about that marriage, whereas very few know that Tom Riddle became Voldy. So, to broadcast to the WW that TR = Voldy might be hurtful to this woman/this family or could tarnish their reputation. Far-fetched, I suppose, but still an intriguing possibility. Siriusly Snapey Susan From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 15:24:29 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:24:29 -0000 Subject: Draco's crime ( Repost of Amy Z post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128857 Alla: OK I found Amy Z Post about Draco and Buckbeak. It is in the recommended posts ( 25303). I agree with her that this was evil action, but then I think that everything Draco does is evil or at least has evil potential. :-) Amy Z wrote: I think Draco's worst crime wasn't trying to get Hagrid fired or gloating over Cedric. The thing I think was worst was trying to get Buckbeak killed. This isn't Amy the touchy-feely, kittycat-loving, animal-rightsist bleeding-heart speaking--as bad as killing a puppy or kitten, or someone's pet, is, I think killing Buckbeak is far worse in the eyes of the wizarding world. Before I explain, I just want to say that I don't think that this means Draco is or isn't evil or unredeemable. For the record, I think he is a really evil person, not just a slimy little twerp, and I also hold out hope that he'll make a substantial turn to the good before the end of Book 7. In the eyes of the wizarding world, Buckbeak has a status above that of an ordinary animal. (1) He is sentient; one might not be able to explain to him that he has to go into hiding, but he understands when he's being insulted (very gratifying moment, that) and he understands a bow. (2) When one kills a violent animal, one refers to it as "destroying" or "putting down" or perhaps "euthanizing" the animal. Buckbeak's imminent death is referred to as an execution-- not just by Hermione (14) and Lupin (17) but Fudge (16)--a term usually reserved for humans. (3) There is a hearing and an appeal, again more on a human model of justice than along the lines of what is typically done for a biting dog. (4) The Minister of Magic and a member of the Committee come up to witness the execution and are both quite grim about it--again, well beyond what one would expect if a hippogriff were merely an ordinary animal orpet. Trying to get Buckbeak killed--framing him, in fact--isn't as bad as trying to get a human killed, but it is definitely treated as something in between killing an animal and killing a person. It appears to be a very serious offense. From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 13 15:42:00 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:42:00 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128858 In Post 1128802 Ginger wrote: snip > By avenging Harry through others, she allows the reader a sense of > justice. Each character gets his comeuppance (or in Snape's case, > dropdownance) for the way they have treated Harry. Kind of a "what > comes around, goes around" philosophy. snip > > I also think she plays it for laughs with the first two scenes, and > for insight into character in the Snape's case. Not that there isn't > a laugh there if one is the sort to find it. I can't speak for JKR > on that one, but I got a laugh out of it. > > So there you have it. Vicarious retribution. Harry won't get back > at people, but JKR will. Harry does not need to seek revenge, nor do > the Snape, Draco and Dudley have to seek atonement. It has been > taken care of. Potioncat: Somewhere, JKR has also commented on the fact that kids either like the stories or they don't but at least they don't over analyze them. Of course that's why this isn't HPfK. I think Ginger is on to something...whether anyone likes the idea or not. Look at this quote: ++++++++++++++++ America Online chat transcript, AOL.com, 19 October 2000 AOL Live presented an exclusive live chat with "Harry Potter" creator J.K. Rowling. Ms. Rowling, which character besides Harry is your favorite, and why? I think that would have to be Hagrid -- but I love Ron and Hermione too, and I also love writing characters like Gilderoy Lockhart, Snape, the Dursleys... it's such fun doing horrible things to them. +++++++++++++++++++++++ So, she enjoys the retribution. We are supposed to laugh. And isn't there a quote somewhere about JKR enjoying some dastardly scene she'd written for HBP? Some of the examples, which I snipped, gave me nothing but amusement the first time I read them. And it wasn't until some thought went into the scene, or more likely, a more sensitive member of the list pointed out the situation, that I began to question things. But you know, in real life, Life-Isn't-Fair. And how often do we cheer when the car that cut us off a few moments ago is stopped by a red light, or trapped in a slower line of traffic as we go by? Or if the office jerk spills coffee all over his shirt? Of course, in that case, it's random life delivering the justice, not another person dishing out an unfair dose. So... I just don't know what JKR's up to. But she seems to be having fun at it. >From Catkind's Post of 128852 Cat-Kind wrote: > Magda: > > How convenient for the good guys - but what if they happen to be > > wrong about whether someone is "so obviously guilty of wrongdoings"? > > Does it somehow not count? Potioncat: I agree. And, after all, isn't that Professor Snape is doing to Harry? He's sure Harry is guilty of pride, rule breaking and any number of misbehaviors and so dishes out retribution which is every bit as fair as Dudley's pigtail. (Come to think of it, Dudley's tail is for his father's actions...) > > catkind: > > Maybe it's kind of cheating though, if we have to revert to > meta-thinking to explain things. It sends all sorts of confused > messages to people who don't understand these rules. Or perhaps > children have an intuitive grasp of Vicarious Retribution - they don't > think so much about what exactly which characters know as us > over-analysing Grown-Ups. > > The one scene I can't subsume here is the pensieve scene. I don't > think the authorial voice is trying to pass that off as Vicarious > Retribution, at least to judge by Harry's reaction. Yet it does fit > the pattern of doing nasty things to nasty people. Is JKR asking us > to question the earlier incidents by making this one so blatant? > > catkind, who as usual has questions not answers, and is hoping Valky > will call it wise :-P Potioncat: Questions, not answers...it's the nature of us cats. ;-) I think your question "Is JKR asking us to question..." is a good one. Afterall, throughout the series we have examples of both situations. Are we supposed to think? Or in JKR's mind is it very different? Can't get that quote out of my head, and can't keep thinking how we like to see "bad" guys get it, however it comes about! From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 13 16:12:24 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:12:24 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128859 a_svirn: >>My guess is that there was a kind of coup d'?ta at some point of the DE history, when LV disposed with his old school friends with the assistance of the younger generation.<< Rebecca: > That's an idea. It makes sense that once he decided (or once he had > enough power to) become an unquestioned leader of the group that he > purged all the members who wouldn't give him that sort of respect. > After all, you don't just "quit" being a death-eater, and he > certaintly can't leave any room for an internal uprising. > (a note here, I always wonder why anyone would choose the "bad" > side in these types of stories, when the bad-side leader is so > willing to kill or torture you at the drop of a hat...you'd have to > REALLY hate muggle-borns, I suppose). SSSusan: Why choose the bad side, knowing this? Either that (REALLY hating muggle-borns) or REALLY getting off on cruelty or REALLY craving power! The idea of a coup d'etat within the DE ranks at some point is interesting. I wonder about old slippery Lucius. Perhaps if that did happen, he was still young enough to not be seen as much of a threat by Voldy? Because I so *do* see him as one who's power- hungry. I think, for instance, that his CoS diary stunt was all about trying to play for his own power and not at all about bringing back Voldy. So I guess, to your question of why would someone join the baddies, knowing the tendency for baddie leaders to "eliminate" not just enemies but fellows who tick them off, I would suggest the power- crazed individual. *Particularly* a power-crazed individual who is so confident in his own ability to manipulate and to play a part that he believes he can *convince* the current Chief Evil Guy of his loyalty, while all the while planning his own takeover at the key moment. Yup, I could see Lucius falling into this category quite nicely. Of course, whether he's misguidedly *over*confident about his skills is another story. Just a thought. Siriusly Snapey Susan From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri May 13 16:53:24 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 09:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050513165325.48891.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128860 > a_svirn: >My guess is that there was a kind of coup d'ta at some point of >the DE history, when LV disposed with his old school friends with the >assistance of the younger generation. It would also explain why >most of those we do know about are from such a close-knit social >circle. Or it's possible that when VOldemort fell, a 20-something Lucius Malfoy was astute enough to make a grab for leadership of the suddenly leader-less group. He would have let the older Friends-of-Tom go off to Azkaban but worked hard to get his own friends and peers off the hook by pleading imperio, etc. FoT's would have sneered at the idea of trying to get off the hook; they would have been proud of being DE's. So that when the dust settled, the only DE's out of jail were Lucius' friends - and grateful to Lucius. Another reason why Voldemort referred to him as "my slippery friend". Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From willsonkmom at msn.com Fri May 13 16:59:14 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 16:59:14 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128861 Neri wrote: > > > > TURBAN! Tying Unguent 'Round Baby 'Arry's Noggin. > > "Cool acronym", grinned Neri. "However, if it were Snape and Hagrid > that did everything, it would be a bit pretentious of DD to say that > he placed the charm on Harry, and this would hardly be in character". > Potioncat retrieves the can(n)ball tossed aside by Jen and reads it aloud again: > GoF, Ch. 33: > "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected than > I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by Dumbledore long > ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future. Dumbledore > invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he > is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there. ...Then, of > course, there was the Quidditch World Cup. ...I thought his protection > might be weaker there, away from his relations and Dumbledore, but I > was not yet strong enough to attempt kidnap in the midst of a horde of > Ministry wizards. And then, the boy would return to Hogwarts, where he > is under the crooked nose of that Muggle-loving fool from morning > until night. So how could I take him?" Potioncat begins to explain: "See, if we're going to take LV's word at this, he says '...in ways devised by DD...' More than one way! There's the ancient magic that works at the Dursleys. And it could have been set up by DD without Harry actually being there. The idea of a letter is a very good one, and..." Just then another owl flew down and dropped a letter on Potioncat's head addressed: "Dreamer, on the Beach, Theory Bay" written by stickbook (Post # 128858) A few years ago there was a similar idea that was bandied about, but I don't know that it ever got it's own proper acronym. The theory was that Petunia kept the letter and that ever since it's been hidden under the first stair. Or maybe it was the second stair, I can't remember. Anyway, that's why that stair creaks. There was never any real canon to go on, other than the fact that it seems to be mentioned an awful lot for a single stair. Does anyone else remember this discussion? Potioncat looks up from the letter, "So, letters get a lot of votes. You know it would be even funnier if HBP opens with Dudley's announcement that he's fixed the step by finding and tossing out an old piece of paper stuck under the wood." But back to SHADOW and TURBAN. We know DD wasn't at Hogwarts: McGonagall was looking for him. So he did his magic somewhere else. It could still have been a letter. He doesn't seem to have talked to Hagrid, or seen Harry because he asks about the trip. So, DD performs or prepares his magic at an undisclosed site. That was one way of protecting Harry. Hagrid talks to McGonagall, so he must have been at Hogwarts late enough in the day to run into her; but she doesn't see Harry either, or even know for sure about James and Lily. We don't know what Hagrid told her. Hagrid and Snape apply Dragon blood protection or Dragon blood remedy to Harry. Hagrid takes Harry to the Dursleys. The Feast Night dream now serves both to paint Snape as "The Bad Guy" which is what everyone thought it was supposed to for most of SS/PS, but now it also works to tie the events of GH to Harry's later experiences. It's still appropriate that DD say he performed a charm. A charm is not a potion and there are some who might not think potion-making is magic anyway...and we have good old Tom telling us that DD devised several ways of protecting Harry." Potioncat looks around. Everyone is thinking. But what, she wonders, are they thinking? The slight breeze is growing stronger and cooler. Comfortable now, but threatening a real storm. Potioncat looks out at the vessels in the bay. Even the most seaworthy ones look a bit battered. "Does anyone know which boats are still manned? And which ones still have some power to them?" she asks. From marilynpeake at cs.com Fri May 13 04:39:28 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:39:28 -0000 Subject: Moral Messages and Hagrid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128862 catkind: I too love the realistic touches. (Harry getting to know Ron over chocolate frogs; Harry's disastrous date with Cho.) On the other hand there are other times when Rowling throws realism for her characters out of the window. A realistic Vernon Dursley would never have ended up in the Hut on the Rock in the first place, and wouldn't have a clue what to do with a gun. It would be far too exotic and dangerous for him. A realistic Hermione couldn't possibly be so stupid as to think SPEW a good acronym. I think it can be fun and dramatic when characters act like caricatures of themselves too. This combination of realism and caricature seems to me to be unique to HP. Marilyn: You're absolutely right. Overall, J.K. Rowling's world in the Harry Potter books is realistically portrayed, as if all of it could truly exist, from muggle to wizard to unicorn. Yet there are those fantastical elements that don't fit like Vernon Dursley escaping to the Hut on the Rock. catkind: I'm not sure. There *is* a large degree of evil coming dressed up in black cloaks, so far at least. The dark side comes neatly labelled: Death Eaters, the Dark Lord, Dark Arts, the High Inquisitor. In real life, it's not half so easy. I don't see the Dursleys as shade-of-grey at all. They're absolutely and stereotypically all that is wrong with dull suburbia, combined with being nasty bullies. Marilyn: Within the Harry Potter books, the Dursleys are indeed caricatures, very black-and-white "bad guys". What I meant by the Dursley characters representing shades of gray is that they can teach children who read the Harry Potter books about shades of gray. As children read the books, they get to absorb the idea that not everyone who protects their standing and outward appearance as a "good guy" is truly a "good guy". Looking at the Dursleys from the outside, they are successful, neat, etc. However, looking at them from inside their home, they are clearly the "bad guys". I think that J.K. Rowling's hilarious portrayal of the Dursleys is like a spoonful of sugar for the bad taste lesson that a regular person can be a bad guy. And J.K. Rowling explores evil on many different levels within many different characters. I believe that she's a master at this. Cheers, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From marilynpeake at cs.com Fri May 13 04:54:46 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 04:54:46 -0000 Subject: Dudley and Harry In-Reply-To: <20050512191113.50723.qmail@web30715.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128863 Eric Oppen: >> What if Dudley had taken right to his little cousin from the minute he first saw Harry, and damn-well _insisted_ on Harry getting commensurate treatment with him? Would this have resulted in Harry growing up just as spoilt as Dudley, or would the Dursleys have throttled back on Dudley-spoiling, just to avoid having to spoil Harry too?<< laurie comments: > That IS an interesting thought. MY take on Petunia is > that most likely she would have squashed any interest > Dudley had in Harry simply due to he (Harry) is Lily's > son and would probably have had a coronary if she had > to pamper Harry as well as Dudley. Marilyn: Interesting idea about what might have been different had Dudley demanded fairness for Harry! I agree with Laurie, though. I think that Petunia resented her sister for so many reasons, she would have taken it out on Harry anyway. And Petunia had so pathologically spoiled Dudley, he wasn't really capable of making room for any other child in the family. Cheers, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From empooress at yahoo.com Fri May 13 05:35:44 2005 From: empooress at yahoo.com (Flunky Bananabrain) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 05:35:44 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128864 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Really a tough one. Let's see 1st book ... Quirrell, a professor 2nd book ... Tom Riddle,an aparition 3rd book ... no one died 4th book ... Frank Bryce, Riddle's caretaker Bertha Jorkins, Ministy employee Cedric Diggory, a well like student 5th book ... Sirius Black, beloved of our Hero 6th book ... mmm I'm thinking it's about time that Lucius Malfoy gets done in. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion > Guy," describe more.) Ok, so here's far fetched. The most ancient and noble house of Black, sounds royal to me. Regulus Black's son by a muggle woman who will be starting at Hogwarts this year. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be > eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret > is revealed.) That she worked as an Unspeakable > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new charecter,Lion guy, whom Harry will "meet" (or bump into) prior to the start of the new school term. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, it's just seems right. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Mafilda Hopkirk, mention only as signing the letters sent to Harry in OotP > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's pensive > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? no > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Assuming one is awarded for the practical as well as the written, I'll say 9 Tigerpatronus: > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory > Question section. empooress: 1.Petunia will finally come clean about what she knows about Godric's Hollow 2. We will learn that James saved Snape twice, once being the prank and the other being from his fellow DE and this is why he now works for Dumbledore. 3.The DA will continue but above ground and will be directed by Dumbledore. 4. Harry's new pet will be Buckbeak 5. Spinner's End will be another "safe" location of the Order empooress From lyraofjordan at yahoo.com Fri May 13 14:33:25 2005 From: lyraofjordan at yahoo.com (lyraofjordan) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 14:33:25 -0000 Subject: more on JKR website update Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128865 Lyra: Ohh, thanks for link. I've found another new FAQ that brings up a question: What education do the children of wizards have before going to Hogwarts? They are, as many of you have guessed, most often home educated. With very young children, as you glimpsed at the wizards' camp before the Quidditch World Cup in 'Goblet of Fire', there is the constant danger that they will use magic, whether inadvertently or deliberately; they cannot be trusted to keep their true abilities hidden. Even Muggle- borns like Harry attract a certain amount of unwelcome attention at Muggle schools by re-growing their hair overnight and so on. "Muggleborns like Harry"? Does she mean muggle-raised (or reared, if you prefer)? Or is she changing the meaning of the word or dropping us a clue? (Dear Jo, if you need someone to copyedit for you, I'm highly qualified and available. Just let me know where to send the resume.) From geekessgoddess at yahoo.com Fri May 13 15:20:40 2005 From: geekessgoddess at yahoo.com (Freud) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 15:20:40 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128866 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasley ...and it will be one of the biggest mistakes the DEs make. Harry, who always seems to lose any possible parental support, will have yet another reason to destroy Voldemort and the remaining members of the Weasley family, with the exception of Percy, will unite in grief and combat and seek revenge in a most ingenious way. Ron will be so heartbroken and enraged he will grow out of his lazy streak in a hurry and start applying himself to learning and also add his tremendous gift for strategy to the war effort. Ron won't be the lazy sidekick in book six and seven - he will change and become such an energetic force, even Hermione will be impressed. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? James Potter. Where else would Harry's money stash come from? James had to be royalty of some kind. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She isn't dead in the sense that her spirit now resides in Harry She set a charm that she would be around to protect Harry no matter what. When Voldemort killed her, it activated the charm and her soul, instead of rising to heaven, merged with her son and his eyes, which were another color, also became green. Lily is the voice of reason Harry occasionally hears in his head. She does not overpower him but she does help him and Lily is the reason he could fly a broom without prior experience, and Lily is the reason he is so good at magic. Lily is also the reason he never lost his good heart, despite his bitter treatment at the hands of the Dursleys. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Dobby - he has lots of experience resisting the dark arts after living with Lucius, and he can do magic. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Someone new. Someone he meets during the summer. Maybe even a muggle. Alas, poor Ginny will continue to pine for Harry in vain. He still thinks of Ginny as Ron's little sister. A death knoll to any potential romance. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Delores Umbridge - with Fudge gone, they will promote his highest underling in his place. Percy will be delighted to be her new secretary. Poor Hogwartz will suffer yet another year of insane proclamations. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Salazar Slytherin's pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, poor Harry just can't get a break, he was born to suffer. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, and blow up a few more cauldrons. Snape better stock up. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven - When you save the world they don't quibble over insignificant details like not finishing a test..> > > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry, unable to hold his tongue since losing Sirius, will let Petunia have it. He will rip her up one side and down the other for keeping secrets, for denying him knowledge of his parents and for mistreating him. Petunia, unable to maintain her denial in the face of his anger, will finally reveal to Harry why she resents him so much. 2. Arthur Weasley will die heroically, protecting Muggles. 3. Neville will be suddenly released from the memory spell that has plagued him. This will happen on his birthday. Unfortunately, his recovered memories will be very painful and he won't be able to deal with them very well. Students at Hogwartz will find he has an altered personality. The days of a timid, self-conscious Neville will be gone. He will be even more determined to find a way to heal his parents and he will find a way, but it will require him to betray the Order. 4. The trio, like the marauders, will practice in secret and find out how to change into their animal form. I believe Harry will discover he can do more than one kind of animal. 5. Ron and Hermione will find themselves in a dangerous situation where they are compelled by circumstances to finally reveal deep feelings for each other. Saved at the last moment, they will return to Hogwartz deeply embarrassed by the experience and more awkward with each other than ever. 6. Harry isn't the only one getting little romance. Snape will be assigned a competent assistant in Potions since he has more and more to do for the Order. This person will be an attractive female who can really challenge him and force him to be a nicer teacher. 7. At the end of Book 6, Mcgonagall will die in a direct confrontation with Voldemort. She won't make it easy for him to kill her though. She will change into her formidable cat form and cause him some serious pain and scratches before giving up the ghost. After her death, she will join the other ghosts who like to live at Hogwarts. -Tabekat, who insanely volunteered to help run a motel by the ocean and now has little time to write and lurk. From mama_loba_gris at yahoo.com.ar Fri May 13 15:58:58 2005 From: mama_loba_gris at yahoo.com.ar (loba gris) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 12:58:58 -0300 (ART) Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: <20050513155858.1307.qmail@web51710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128867 Even though I'm not good at Divination I'll give this one a try. After all at least one of Harry's made-up predictions did come true in the end. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I believe we are going to lose Dumbledore in book six. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Albus Dumbledore is the half blood prince but in a symbolic way rather than in a royal one. 3. What is Lily's big secret? We are not going to know it yet, it will be revealed in book 7, and is the reason why Voldemort wanted to spare her life, and I am clueless about what it can be. Also the powers of her eyes (and Harry's) will be revealed in book 7 not in book 6. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis! and he is the lion-guy but he is not going to be a good DADA teacher. He is not an evil man, just incompetent as a DADA teacher. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I'm inclined to think that shipping wouldn't be important but I guess Ginny has a chance to be spotted by Harry now that he thinks she is over him (ships are weird!). 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones, she has quite an important position in the Ministry already and she looks pretty objective, intelligent and quite decent so far. I think she would make a competent Minister. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I believe it is Dumbledore's pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, he will, because he would get an O in Potions OWL. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, for he too would have an O in his OWL, exactly as Harry. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? DADA, Potions, Charms, Care of Magical Creatures, Transfigurations, Herbology and Divination. 7 in total. 1. Draco will leave school and join the death eaters (that's what "Draco's Detour" chapter is all about). 2. We will see the Hand of Glory in action. 3. Aragog will be helpful in a big way but will die afterwards. 4. Percy will persevere in his attitude and will unintentionally help the death eaters with catastrophic consequences for the good side. 5. Wormtail's silver hand will come into play against Lupin. Best Regards, Lobagris From marilynpeake at cs.com Fri May 13 17:43:04 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:43:04 -0000 Subject: House Elves and Dobby In-Reply-To: <0fb301c556ab$5311a9b0$6400a8c0@KAYSHP> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128868 Kay D.: I was really alluding to the house elves story here, Dobby's life is changed by Harry's kindness Why did Dobby help Harry? Why do house elves have so much power (even without wands), and yet allow themselves to be enslaved? Will they become a factor in the next two books? Marilyn: I was at first shocked at Dobby's introduction into the Harry Potter series - a slave who masochistically punishes himself. However, after awhile, I thought that Dobby represented another genius attempt by J.K. Rowling to introduce complex ideas about good and evil to children. In the real world, people often cooperate with the enslavers. If everyone stood up for what is wrong exactly when it first occurs - if a nation refused to allow others to be enslaved, if everyone acted like Harry - the world would be a much better place. And Harry's first reaction was to demand that Dobby stop hurting himself, no matter what the political consequences to Dobby. Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From marilynpeake at cs.com Fri May 13 17:53:34 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 17:53:34 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128869 catkind: Oooh, I do like this theory of Quigonginger's. It makes sense of various HP scenes that previously worried me. Kind of Potterverse meta-morals as opposed to actual Potterverse morals? So you're allowed to punish someone if the all-seeing reader knows they deserve it, with no reference to what the character knows or internal due process or whatever. Maybe it's kind of cheating though, if we have to revert to meta-thinking to explain things. It sends all sorts of confused messages to people who don't understand these rules. Or perhaps children have an intuitive grasp of Vicarious Retribution - they don't think so much about what exactly which characters know as us over-analysing Grown-Ups. Marilyn: I agree - I think the answer lies in how children perceive books. Children learn every day that things are unfair in real life: the bully doesn't always get punished, sometimes the bully actually gets rewarded when the adults fail to see what the bully did to provoke the good kid, sometimes the good kid gets punished because the adults only see the good kid strike back. In Harry Potter, children already know that Dudley and his parents are tormentors. It must be such great joy for a child to read along and discover that even Hagrid knows who should be punished! Cheers, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From feenyjam at msu.edu Fri May 13 19:16:09 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:16:09 -0000 Subject: Isn't his real name Tom Riddle?(was Precious little to celebrate) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128870 Marianne said: > > Everyone is scared to death of saying Voldemort, which I think > > lends too much power to him in everyone's mind. Why, then, didn't DD or the Order or the Ministry simply start calling him Tom Riddle? It's rather a pleasant name, and not at all scary. Did they really go through the entire 11 years not knowing his real identity? SSSusan said: > One of the more interesting theories I've heard about this (and wish I could remember whom to credit, darn it) is that DD hasn't revealed the connection between Voldy & Tom Riddle because doing so would *hurt* someone he cares about. > The suggestion, IIRC, is that someone -- perhaps even Minerva > McGonagall -- was married to Tom Riddle, might even have had a > family, and that some of the WW knows about that marriage, whereas > very few know that Tom Riddle became Voldy. So, to broadcast to the WW that TR = Voldy might be hurtful to this woman/this family or could tarnish their reputation. > > Far-fetched, I suppose, but still an intriguing possibility. Greenfirespike says: I don't think Tom married Minerva, cannon makes pretty clear that LV (and thusly Tom) never experienced love. I am sure Minerva would never enter into a loveless marriage, a foolish young love fling I can see, but not a loveless one. For what it is worth, I think DD and Minerva are married; or former lovers. Perhaps DD calling LV by his birth name, Tom, while in the ministry was twofold; first letting Tom know that DD is well aware of who he is and who he was, and secondly letting the remaining DE's know that their leader is a half-blood himself. IMO DD didn't know that LV was Tom Riddle until the end of VWI. Greenfirespike As an aside, did anyone else notice this!?! In FQA, about the book, JKR said is response to the question: What education to children of wizards have before going to Hogwarts? "Even Muggle-borns like Harry attract a certain amount of unwelcome attention at schools by re-growing their hair overnight and so on." From patientx3 at aol.com Fri May 13 19:37:45 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 19:37:45 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128871 Siriusly Snapey Susan wrote: >>The idea of a coup d'etat within the DE ranks at some point is interesting. I wonder about old slippery Lucius. Perhaps if that did happen, he was still young enough to not be seen as much of a threat by Voldy? Because I so *do* see him as one who's power- hungry. << Rebecca: Lucius always seems sort of suscipcious to me as well. The comparison has been made here before between him and Number 2 in the Austin Powers movies, which fits in a way. He was a lot better off before Voldemort came back. Voldemort, like a lot of evil overlords, doesn't make the best decisions all the time. I'm sure if it were up to Malfoy the whole dueling thing in the graveyard wouldn't have happened, and I'm sure it wasn't *his* idea to hang out in the DoM (though he probably enjoyed disabling the guards). SSSusan: >>I think, for instance, that his CoS diary stunt was all about trying to play for his own power and not at all about bringing back Voldy.<< Rebecca: That's curious. What do you think he could have been trying to do? Just get rid of Dumbledore? If he did, and got Snape, or some other "dark" person as the new Headmaster (of course he thinks Snape is still on the DE side), he would have suceeded in taking over Hogwarts, which is something Voldemort never even attempted. SSSusan: >>So I guess, to your question of why would someone join the baddies, knowing the tendency for baddie leaders to "eliminate" not just enemies but fellows who tick them off, I would suggest the power- crazed individual. *Particularly* a power-crazed individual who is so confident in his own ability to manipulate and to play a part that he believes he can *convince* the current Chief Evil Guy of his loyalty, while all the while planning his own takeover at the key moment.<< Rebecca: Yes, Lucius falls right into that catagory. Another comparison could be Saruman in LOTR. Lucius *thinks* that Voldemort has no idea about his (possibe) takeover plans. I'm sure Voldemort knows that Malfoy is disloyal deep down (as many of his followers might be, they are, after all, mostly Slytherins and we know Slytherins aren't known for their loyalty). Hmm, I wonder if it'll come down to Voldemort killing Lucius, or if Lucius will end up in Azkaban at the end of the series. Killing would certainly be more interesting. I think the other catagory for the ones who joined the DEs would have to be the ones who joined looking for a little power, and then just became sort of brain-washed by Voldemort, like they are inside a cult. This is what appears happened to Bellatrix and Crouch Jr. Both of them are beyond sanity (though Crouch Jr. might have been okay *before* he was imprisoned in his father's house for over ten years). There's a sort of hero worship surrounding them and Voldemort, its got to be that extreme hatred of Muggles and "Muggle-Lovers" like Dumbledore. Voldemort is the one telling them that all their crazy prejudices are perfectly fine to have, and that its equally fine to act on them. No wonder Bellatrix loves him. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 13 20:02:48 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:02:48 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128872 > > Rebecca: >> There's a sort of hero worship surrounding them and Voldemort, its > got to be that extreme hatred of Muggles and "Muggle-Lovers" like > Dumbledore. Voldemort is the one telling them that all their crazy > prejudices are perfectly fine to have, and that its equally fine to > act on them. No wonder Bellatrix loves him. > She's the only one, though. Well, apart from the poor desouled Barty Crouch. And note that both of them have a less than balanced personality. Or had in Barty's case. a_svirn From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Fri May 13 20:05:05 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:05:05 -0000 Subject: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lyraofjordan" wrote: > Lyra: > Ohh, thanks for link. I've found another new FAQ that brings up a > question: > > What education do the children of wizards have before going to Hogwarts? > They are, as many of you have guessed, most often home educated. With > very young children, as you glimpsed at the wizards' camp before the > Quidditch World Cup in 'Goblet of Fire', there is the constant danger > that they will use magic, whether inadvertently or deliberately; they > cannot be trusted to keep their true abilities hidden. Even Muggle- > borns like Harry attract a certain amount of unwelcome attention at > Muggle schools by re-growing their hair overnight and so on. > > "Muggleborns like Harry"? Does she mean muggle-raised (or reared, if > you prefer)? Or is she changing the meaning of the word or dropping us > a clue? > > (Dear Jo, if you need someone to copyedit for you, I'm highly qualified > and available. Just let me know where to send the resume.) Tammy: Another possible inadvertent hint is in the Luna-Snape question. I found it interesting that she said "Snape does not have a daughter." She didn't say Snape doesn't have kids, she said he doesn't have a daughter. The conspiracy theorist in me says that it means he does have a son (mmm... Harry? wait, she already said no to that one... mmm... Neville! HAH! that's it!) -Tammy, who wants Snape to have a son somewhere - even if he's the so-called "good slytherin" From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 13 20:13:04 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:13:04 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128874 > a_svirn wrote: > >>We don't know for sure if indeed something happened to them. There > were about 30 DE in the Graveyard, and we've been told only about a > dozen names. Maybe the rest of the lot is the older and wiser ones, > who unlike these young hotheads hadn't got caught during the wars.<< > > Rebecca: > Were there 30 in the graveyard? From the description in the book it > seems like 20 at the most, though I could be mistaken. a_svirn: That was at the beginning at the Chapter 34: "At these words Harry remembered, as though from a former life, the dueling club at Hogwarts he had attended briefly two years ago. ... All he had learned there was the Disarming Spell, "Expelliarmus". . . and what use would it be to deprive Voldemort of his wand, even if he could, when he was surrounded by Death Eaters, outnumbered by at least thirty to one?" a_svirn From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri May 13 20:24:36 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:24:36 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128875 SSSusan: >>I think, for instance, that his CoS diary stunt was all about trying to play for his own power and not at all about bringing back Voldy.<< Rebecca: > That's curious. What do you think he could have been trying to do? > Just get rid of Dumbledore? If he did, and got Snape, or some > other "dark" person as the new Headmaster (of course he thinks > Snape is still on the DE side), he would have suceeded in taking > over Hogwarts, which is something Voldemort never even attempted. SSSusan: Any number of possibilities have been suggested: *That he deliberately chose Ginny, trusting she'd get caught, and thus the Weasley family (read: Arthur) would be discredited, and Arthur's Muggle Protection Act proposal would fail. *That he hoped Harry would be either killed or implicated & expelled. *That he wanted to wreak havoc & get a few "Mudbloods" killed. *That he hoped said havoc would get DD discredited and kicked out as headmaster, leaving the position open *either* for himself or for someone he'd hand-pick. *Even, if one assumes that Lucius did understand the possibility that Tom Riddle could return, that Lucius thought it would be better to have a young, more-potentially-controllable Tom around whom he could mold and manipulate and *use* in his own rise to power. Any of these strike your fancy? :-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 13 20:42:45 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:42:45 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128876 --- > > SSSusan: > So I guess, to your question of why would someone join the baddies, > knowing the tendency for baddie leaders to "eliminate" not just > enemies but fellows who tick them off, I would suggest the power- > crazed individual. *Particularly* a power-crazed individual who is > so confident in his own ability to manipulate and to play a part that > he believes he can *convince* the current Chief Evil Guy of his > loyalty, while all the while planning his own takeover at the key > moment. > > Yup, I could see Lucius falling into this category quite nicely. Of > course, whether he's misguidedly *over*confident about his skills is > another story. > I am afraid that you give Lucius too much credit. In the absence of LV he can be as power-hungry as they come, which is why he was in no hurry to bring him back. But as long as LV is once again in the picture Lucius is as much of his pawn as your next Death Eater. As for coup d'eta I think that Malfoy assisted LV in good faith (pardon the pun). He was not out of his teens when he was recruited, he probably followed the stapes of his father before him, he was over-eager to prove himself as it usually the case with novices, he must have been heady with his fist taste of blood and violence and yes! overambitious too. In other word he was easy pray for a consummate manipulator. And ? if I am right concerning the structure of the "old" DE organization he was answerable only to the "Master" who recruited him and was supposed to keep all their activity in secret. Which means that he could have realized what was happening only when it was already too late. And it doesn't look like he "convinced" LV of anything. The current chief evil guy may be crazed both power- and otherwise, but he is not stupid, if his words at the graveyard any indication. a_svirn From feenyjam at msu.edu Fri May 13 20:47:27 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:47:27 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128877 > SSSusan: > >>I think, for instance, that his CoS diary stunt was all > about trying to play for his own power and not at all about bringing > back Voldy.<< > > Rebecca: > > That's curious. What do you think he could have been trying to do? > > Just get rid of Dumbledore? If he did, and got Snape, or some > > other "dark" person as the new Headmaster (of course he thinks > > Snape is still on the DE side), he would have suceeded in taking > > over Hogwarts, which is something Voldemort never even attempted. > > > SSSusan: > Any number of possibilities have been suggested: > > *That he deliberately chose Ginny, trusting she'd get caught, and > thus the Weasley family (read: Arthur) would be discredited, and > Arthur's Muggle Protection Act proposal would fail. Not sure how this would work, as we know that very few knew that LV was TR. This would really only work if LV was outed at TR before the diary was found. > > *That he hoped Harry would be either killed or implicated & expelled. *That he wanted to wreak havoc & get a few "Mudbloods" killed. *That he hoped said havoc would get DD discredited and kicked out as headmaster, leaving the position open *either* for himself or for someone he'd hand-pick. > > *Even, if one assumes that Lucius did understand the possibility that Tom Riddle could return, that Lucius thought it would be better to have a young, more-potentially-controllable Tom around whom he could mold and manipulate and *use* in his own rise to power. > > Any of these strike your fancy? :-) > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Greenfirespike says: These I like much more. Although, it was quite a risk for LM to take, and I often wonder why he would plan to take such a risk. The fact that Dolby knew of the threat/plot against Harry makes me think there was more than just LM and NM involved in the idea/planning. LM even had a chanse to sell the book before he was cought with it. So, who else was in on the plot? Greenfirespike From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 20:53:24 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:53:24 -0000 Subject: Draco's crime ( Repost of Amy Z post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128878 >>Amy Z wrote: >I think Draco's worst crime wasn't trying to get Hagrid fired or gloating over Cedric. The thing I think was worst was trying to get Buckbeak killed.< Betsy: Erm... When did Draco try and kill Buckbeak? I don't think he even stood as witness at any of Buckbeack's trials. IIRC, Lucius was the Malfoy bringing pressure to bear upon the court, not Draco. I don't think Draco was *sorry* Buckbeack was brought up on charges, and I think he was looking forward to the execution, but he had a pretty passive role in the whole thing. >>Amy Z: >In the eyes of the wizarding world, Buckbeak has a status above that of an ordinary animal. (1) He is sentient; one might not be able to explain to him that he has to go into hiding, but he understands when he's being insulted (very gratifying moment, that) and he understands a bow.< Betsy: I'll argue that hippogriffs have about the same intelligence as dogs - maybe a bit higher. It's hard for me to overlook the whole disinterest in escaping his own death bit. (I am not arguing that this means Buckbeack deserved to die. Hagrid should have been disciplined for reckless endangerment, but Buckbeak was acting true to his nature.) >>Amy Z: >Trying to get Buckbeak killed--framing him, in fact--...< Betsy: Framing Buckbeak? So Buckbeak didn't slash Draco with his "steely talons", that was all mirrors? I suppose the "blossoming" and "splattered" blood was ketchup? (PoA scholastic hardback p. 118) Betsy From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 13 20:55:03 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:55:03 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's recruitment . Was: Precious little to celebrate for 11 years... In-Reply-To: <20050513165325.48891.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > a_svirn: > >My guess is that there was a kind of coup d'?ta at some point of > >the DE history, when LV disposed with his old school friends with > the > >assistance of the younger generation. It would also explain why > >most of those we do know about are from such a close-knit social > >circle. > > magda: > Or it's possible that when VOldemort fell, a 20-something Lucius > Malfoy was astute enough to make a grab for leadership of the > suddenly leader-less group. He would have let the older > Friends-of-Tom go off to Azkaban but worked hard to get his own > friends and peers off the hook by pleading imperio, etc. FoT's would > have sneered at the idea of trying to get off the hook; they would > have been proud of being DE's. > > So that when the dust settled, the only DE's out of jail were Lucius' > friends - and grateful to Lucius. Another reason why Voldemort > referred to him as "my slippery friend". > a_svirn: It might explain why he is a "slippery friend", but it in no way explains the conspicuous absence of the older wizards among the DE. Besides Lucius aspirations to take LV place would be a reason enough to dispose of him, preferably publicly so that others learn their lesson. Instead, LV didn't even Crucio him. a_svirn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 21:03:50 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:03:50 -0000 Subject: Draco's crime ( Repost of Amy Z post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128880 Betsy: I'll argue that hippogriffs have about the same intelligence as dogs - maybe a bit higher. It's hard for me to overlook the whole disinterest in escaping his own death bit. (I am not arguing that this means Buckbeack deserved to die. Hagrid should have been disciplined for reckless endangerment, but Buckbeak was acting true to his nature.) Alla: How Hagrid recklessly endagered anybody? Hagrid did give all warnings to the students that hypoggriffs should be handled very carefully, only Draco was not very much engaged in listening to what the teacher was saying. No, I would say that Hagird was absolutely blameless in the matter and Draco had nobody to blame but himself for what happened and as you yourself said Bucky was acting true to his nature. Amy Z: Trying to get Buckbeak killed--framing him, in fact--...< Betsy: Framing Buckbeak? So Buckbeak didn't slash Draco with his "steely talons", that was all mirrors? I suppose the "blossoming" and "splattered" blood was ketchup? (PoA scholastic hardback p. 118) Alla: Oh, Draco was injured, no questions about it. He was framing Bucky, IMO, by milking his injury for MUCH more it was really worth. No book with me right now, but wasn't he smirking at Ron while Snape was not looking when Ron was ordered to cut beets for him in Potions lesson. Me thinks dear Draco was perfectly able to do it himself, if he wanted to. Just my opinion, Alla From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri May 13 21:12:22 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:12:22 -0000 Subject: School year system in the UK - US Perspective In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > Tonks: > Well I didn't realize that there was so much variety is the US. I > went to school back in the dark ages in a small town. We had > different building for the K-6, 7-8, and 9-12. And 7-12 did not have > recess. ...edited... > > Tonks_op bboyminn: I'm going to drift off-topic slightly to make an observation about the generally common USA system. Grades = life stage K->6 (grade/grammer school) = pre-pubescent 7-8 (Middle/JuniorHigh school) = transitionally pubescent 9->12 (High School) = post-pubescent While I suspect this was somewhat subsconscious, I think it does play a factor. In a sense in the USA, we separate the innocent from the volatile from the (relatively speaking) corrupt. This intent is to minimize the impact of each group on the other. In medium size towns and larger in the USA, as Tonks pointed out, these three groups of students would actually go to different schools in different parts of the city which even further isolates the groups from each other. As others have pointed out, while not uniform, this division of students is very common in the US which is why we find it odd that you, the Brits, are mixing innocent 11 and 12 year olds with hormonally-crazed sexually-obssessed pot-smoking beer-drinking angst-ridden teenagers. Sadly, in this day and age, 11 and 12 year olds are not as innocent as the used to be. Just passsing it on. Steve/bboyminn From celletiger at yahoo.com Fri May 13 21:18:08 2005 From: celletiger at yahoo.com (Marcelle) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:18:08 -0000 Subject: Mixing pre-teens and young adults in WW & RW was Re:School year system in the UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > > > Tonks: (with snippage): >>>Kids in what the US calls Jr. High (7 & 8) would pick up some >>>very bad ideas from kids in 9-12. And that(Jr.High) is the age >>>group that are most impressionable, so IMO they should be kept >>>seperate. Gerry replied: > OK, big question mark here. Keeping age groups separate because >they might pick up bad ideas? So what happens at home? Need >siblings to be kept separate too? Should children not talk to their >older siblings friends? Or only with a parent there for fear of >contamination? celletiger now answers: What you see as a weird custom is simply letting children be children and leaving *boring* adult matters to adults. The dynamics among siblings at home or even at school are much different than the influences of /peer/ pressure at school and on the playground, IMO. I'm not talking about different ages mixing in structured, after school clubs, where there is a purpose to the gathering and an adult moderator. My point is that the 17 year olds are sitting at the same relaxed lunch table right next to the 11 year olds, who are simply soaking up all the ridiculous teenage drama that the older kids have experienced in a few short years. Its not that I think the 7th years are hanging out with the 1st years teaching them how to smoke cigarettes and do tequila shots ? to me it's the younger kids keeping their ears open from the corners of the common room, "learning" by hearing tidbits of teenage "wisdom." IE: Parts of more advanced, potentially more dangerous magic. Parts of hormonal encounters. IMHO, kids younger than 15 have plenty enough kid stuff to keep them occupied other than hormones. JKR doesn't introduce dating as a concept for the main characters until GOF. The only mention of teenage dating before that that I can remember is Percy and Penelope ? when Percy was a sixth year (16 y.o.) in COS. Gerry continued: >Should they be forbidden to watch TV programs with older children >in them? And why would children of 9-12 have bad ideas? Especially >the kind that cannot picked up from TV, books, newspapers or the >internet? I'm sorry to say, but to mee this seems a rather paranoid >view of children, motivated by fear and seeing the worst,instead of >a positive view that gives children role models in growing up. snip to which celletiger answers: Yes, but positive role models must be available. My mother is my role model now, but believe me, when I was a teenager, I worshiped rock stars and the stupid older high school guys who could get beer. Bad influences, certainly, but it wasnt cool to worship mom who said no alcohol when the cute football player was holding the tap. Assume the same goes in the WW - if an older kid knows how to do certain magics - isn't there an allure for some younger kids to want to learn those secret/more advanced/dangerous/dark! magics? You bring up the influences of media and entertainment on children. This is what I'm talking about. Especially BOOKS in the Potterverse. There's a reason there is a restricted section in the Hogwarts library, where IIRC, only students taking a NEWT course may retrieve a specific book. Sure, Hermione made polyjuice potion correctly, but look what happened to her. Also, IMO, there is some material presented in the entertainment venues as well as the general news media and internet that is inappropriate for pre-teens. There are some tv shows and movies I would never let a pre-teen see, as well as books and internet sites. And I don't consider myself conservative. It's a crazy world out there and I just think children's imaginations should be nurtured and not filled with some *adult* garbage. After all, look what the /adults/ on this group are reading... celletiger, who doesn't even have kids to be over-protective about From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri May 13 21:26:20 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:26:20 -0000 Subject: Draco's crime ( Repost of Amy Z post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128883 > Betsy: > I'll argue that hippogriffs have about the same intelligence as > dogs - maybe a bit higher. It's hard for me to overlook the whole > disinterest in escaping his own death bit. (I am not arguing that > this means Buckbeack deserved to die. Hagrid should have been > disciplined for reckless endangerment, but Buckbeak was acting true > to his nature.) I don't know about that. I think Amy's post brings up a good point when she says that the whole thing is oddly formal for the simple putting down of an animal. there was a criminal trial with lawyers and witnesses and everything else you would attribute to a human criminal trial. The man who did it was an executioner and the Minister of magic himself showed up to preside over it. Prime minister is kind of an important job and you would think that he would have something better to do than show up at what basically amounts to putting an animal to sleep. I think Draco's actions were going to end up getting a pretty sophisticated creature being killed. And I don't think that Hagrid should be prosecuted for reckless endangerment. He told everyone exactly what to do and what to expect. It was solely because of Draco's stupidity that he was injured. Frankly I think Hagrid is a much better teacher than he gets credit for. I would have loved to see creatures like that in one of my biology classes. He just doesn't get the classroom respect the other teachers do which flusters him. Same thing happened to me when I did my student teaching. You grow out of it. > >>Amy Z: > >Trying to get Buckbeak killed--framing him, in fact--...< > > > Betsy: > Framing Buckbeak? So Buckbeak didn't slash Draco with his "steely > talons", that was all mirrors? I suppose the "blossoming" > and "splattered" blood was ketchup? (PoA scholastic hardback p. 118) I think she is refering to the way that he played up his *relatively* minor injury for sympathy which kept the incident alive and escalated the backlash to both Hagrid and Buckbeak beyond what would have otherwise happened. IIRC, Draco also bragged about what his father was going to do. If he didn't deliberately seek to frame buckbeak he certainly manipulated the aftermath pretty ruthlessly. I don't think it would be out of bounds to lay BB's death squarely at his feet--at least in part. phoenixgod2000 From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri May 13 21:50:54 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 21:50:54 -0000 Subject: Draco's crime ( Repost of Amy Z post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: > I think she is refering to the way that he played up his > *relatively* minor injury for sympathy which kept the incident > alive and escalated the backlash to both Hagrid and Buckbeak beyond > what would have otherwise happened. IIRC, Draco also bragged about > what his father was going to do. If he didn't deliberately seek to > frame buckbeak he certainly manipulated the aftermath pretty > ruthlessly. I don't think it would be out of bounds to lay BB's > death squarely at his feet--at least in part. "I'm afraid he won't be a teacher much longer," said Malfoy in a tone of mock sorrow. "Father's not very happy about my injury--" ... "--he's complained to the school governors. *And* to the Ministry of Magic. Father's got a lot of influence, you know. And a lasting injury like this"--he gave a huge, fake sigh--"who knows if my arm'll ever be the same again?" "So that's why you're putting it on," said Harry, accidentally beheading a dead caterpillar because his hand was shaking in anger. "To try to get Hagrid fired." "Well," said Malfoy, lowering his voice to a whisper, "_partly_, Potter. But there are other benefits too. Weasley, slice my caterpillars for me." (PoA, US HB, p. 125) It's an extremely uphill argument if you want to make the case that Draco is not malingering. As in, you have to deal with both the potentially biased perceptions of other characters but also a lot of plain fact. There's no lasting damage to his arm mentioned in canon. He admits to what he's doing and what benefits he derives from it here. So what we have is a boy who has a degree of malice or at minimum lack of empathy to feign injury to get a teacher fired and a sentient creature *executed*. He hides behind the authority of others in a refusal to take responsibility for his own actions. Definitely lacking in the virtues (such as compassion, honor, and honesty) and other aspects of character, Draco is. I forsee a sticky end, without drastic change. -Nora keeps playing her virtue ethics card for now From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 22:24:33 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:24:33 -0000 Subject: Draco's crime ( Repost of Amy Z post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128885 >>Alla: >No, I would say that Hagird was absolutely blameless in the matter and Draco had nobody to blame but himself for what happened and as you yourself said Bucky was acting true to his nature.< Betsy: And that's exactly why Hagrid *is* to blame. He knows the Hippogriff nature. He knows they're prickly, and he knows that they are dangerous enough to a full grown man, let alone thirteen year old children. Seriously, if you were introducing children to horses for the first time, would you choose an amiable creature, tolerant of children and not offended if her coat is patted in the wrong direction, or a thoroughbred racing stallion, high strung and nervous, known to kick if approached from the wrong direction? Sure, if you're a horse lover, the placid old nag is a bit boring and the thoroughbred a much more interesting creature, but Hagrid is dealing with first-timers here. Something I think he didn't fully comprehend. Also, I really see a bias here when folks jump all over Draco for not being all ears during Hagrid's lecture (taking place outside, where it's even easier to drift) and then turn around and blame Snape because Neville doesn't follow directions written out on a blackboard. Every other professor at Hogwarts starts their classes out with fairly benign magic, and still caldrons get melted and feathers blow up. Hagrid decides to start *his* class out with a creature that earns a level 3 classification from the MoM. (My theory is that Hagrid geared his classes towards his own preferences rather than thinking about his students. A beginners mistake, I would imagine.) >>Alla: >Oh, Draco was injured, no questions about it. He was framing Bucky, IMO, by milking his injury for MUCH more it was really worth.< Betsy: But milking an injury isn't the same as faking an injury. The truth of the matter is that he was attacked by Buckbeack and blood was drawn (enough to get a dog executed in some States here in the US). The rest was just flowers and chocolates, I would imagine. >>Phoenixgod: >IIRC, Draco also bragged about what his father was going to do. If he didn't deliberately seek to frame buckbeak he certainly manipulated the aftermath pretty ruthlessly. I don't think it would be out of bounds to lay BB's death squarely at his feet--at least in part.< Betsy: Oh, Draco manipulated the aftermath magnificently. But again, the attack happened, Lucius used it to try and hurt Dumbledore, and Draco went along for the ride. Seems a little passive for murder accusations to me. >>Nora: >It's an extremely uphill argument if you want to make the case that Draco is not malingering. As in, you have to deal with both the potentially biased perceptions of other characters but also a lot of plain fact. There's no lasting damage to his arm mentioned in canon. He admits to what he's doing and what benefits he derives from it here. >So what we have is a boy who has a degree of malice or at minimum lack of empathy to feign injury to get a teacher fired and a sentient creature *executed*. He hides behind the authority of others in a refusal to take responsibility for his own actions. Definitely lacking in the virtues (such as compassion, honor, and honesty) and other aspects of character, Draco is.< Betsy: I'm not arguing that he's not malingering. And I'm not arguing that he's a fine upstanding citizen whose been grievously misrepresented. I *am* arguing that he was a fairly passive tool in his father's war against Dumbledore, and that if left to his own devices Draco would have used his injury for tears and sympathy (and Harry's gnashing teeth) and possibly some quidditch strategy. Killing Buckbeak and firing Hagrid was Lucius' bugaboo. One Draco was thrilled to witness, but not something he did himself. (And I still don't buy the "sentient" argument. So the WW pulled out all the stops to examine whether a magical creature should be killed. Don't mean Buckbeak is that much more aware than an above average dog. I don't mean to keep harping on the, unaware of impending doom, but... the creature nearly flubbed up his own rescue for goodness sakes.) Betsy From alishak at spu.edu Fri May 13 22:54:46 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:54:46 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128886 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. But if he does it will be in an Obi-Wan sort of way. Not that I think he will "live on" as a voice in Harry's head, but he will deliberately allow Voldemort to kill him with Harry watching. This will cause Harry to resent DD for his death at first, but will later prevent him from hating Voldemort for killing his mentor. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Felix Felicis 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) The secret is that she, like James, once saved Snape's life, and, unlike James, Snape never resented her for it. It was, in fact, the event that precipitated Snape's "turn" to the good side. One of the reasons Snape hates Harry so much is that he was unable to repay the life-debt he owed to Lily (adding that to the life-debt he owed James makes Harry's presence insufferable for our dear potions master). 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Yeah, Felix again. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No One! He won't have the time, and when he finally comes to his senses and asks Ginny out, he will find that she has indeed moved on and sees him as an older brother and nothing more. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I like Amos Diggory for this one. It would make things interesting as well as frustrating. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve I think it's James's 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Although he only received an "E", Dumbledore will intervene because Harry will need his potion skills before the end. This will, of course, cause much more tension and resentment between the two. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Absolutely not. There is no way he managed to even pass his OWL. Both he and Snape will be happier for it. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Everything but History of Magic, Divination and Astronomy Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Amos Diggory, the new MoM, will be put under the Imperius curse. Harry will misinterpret all his actions as punishment for his survival at the end of GoF. 2. We will finally see the reverse of Sirius' "The world is not divided into good people and Death Eaters." Namely: the world is also not divided into bad people and Order/DA members. In other words, someone not actively connected to the Order, the DA or even Harry will have a crucial part to play in the fight against Voldemort. And the real surprise here is that it will be a Slytherin. 3. Harry, not Ron, will be the new Quidditch captain, and this will cause a nearly insurmountable rift to appear between the two of them. 4. Prediction 3 will make quidditch practices unbearably tense, so it will be Ginny, not Hermione, who finally brings the two to some reconciliation. 5. Harry's fight with Ron will make him spend more time with Neville, Luna and Ginny (he will avoid Hermione, because he will perceive her attempts to help as siding with Ron). We will see Neville and Luna develop more as a result. 6. Neville's Mimbulous Mimbletona (is that right?) will prove to be highly important to the plans of the Order. 7. Harry, disappointed with his father, will begin to wonder more about his mother and her connection to his survival. He will seek out Lupin for more information about her, and it is through Lupin that he will discover that Lily once saved Snape's life, in a much more active way than James had. This knowledge, combined with Snape's Worst Memory, will cause Harry to pity Snape, which will make Snape loathe him even more. 8.Draco will take his father's incarceration as reason to fully support Voldemort in whatever way he can. Regulus-style, he will be appalled by what he learns, and at some point Harry will have to make the choice to save his life or leave him in LV's hands. -Alisha "The difference between the right word and the almost right word is like the difference between lightning and a lightning bug." -Mark Twain From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Fri May 13 20:59:19 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:59:19 -0000 Subject: Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius' trial?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128887 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > > To tell you the truth, now I am wondering even more whether non-use > of Veritaserum was a plot hole. I know a plot hole when I see one,and in no way is that a plot hole! I am not the slightest bit surprised that Veritaserum was not used at Sirius' trial. In the first place Sirius never had a trial, in the second place finding the truth was never an important consideration by the cowardly, corrupt and moribund Ministry Of Magic. A dozen people were murdered and the public demanded somebody to blame and the Ministry supplied the villain, Sirius Black; everybody was happy and they could all now continue with their pointless dull life. Those incompetent paper pushers were are not about to say the real culprit is a guy named Pettigrew and he's free because he outsmarted us. They probably even managed to convince themselves that Sirius was guilty but the idea of using Veritaserum would terrify them, they might hear something they'd rather not know. Eggplant From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 23:15:03 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:15:03 -0000 Subject: Vicarious Retribution (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128888 >>Ginger: >Time and time again, listees have expressed concern about fairness in certain scenes. I am going to refer specificly to Snape in the Pensieve, Dudley's tail, and Ferret!Draco.< >People have wondered if we are supposed to cheer simply because one character is "good" and the other "bad" or if this is a case of JKR showing the grey in human nature, as opposed to black and white. >I propose that JKR is using a literary sense of "cosmic justice" for lack of a better word (or phrase). "Vengance is mine", saith JKR, so to speak. Harry can not avenge himself for the sufferings he has received at that hands of Dudley, Draco and Snape, so JKR does it for him. Perhaps she doesn't want him to sink to their level, but still wants these three to pay for what they have done to Harry.< Betsy: I'm going to have to disagree with this theory for a couple of reasons. First, it strikes me as fairly sloppy story telling. The bad guys get their's but not at the hands of the hero and without a clear line of retribution? I just can't see JKR, who has already proven herself well able to handle heavy plotlines, throwing in such an unnecessary and esoteric complication. I think we should also keep in mind that this is a children's series: justice will, more than likely, be obviously served. Second, who says Harry hasn't "sunk to the bad guys' level" at times or at least delt out some righteous retribution of his own? How many times has Harry and others stomped Draco? Harry and friends have left Draco covered in hexes in at least two books, and Harry beat the crap out of him (with George's help) in one. I think Harry has done a fine job of handing Draco some retribution all on his own without authorial help. I think Harry has served retribution on Dudley as well, though not as dramatically as with Draco. From CoS on Harry has been threatening Dudley with magic, and Dudley has been terrified of him. (I actually think Dudley was quite brave when he punched Harry in OotP.) The worm definitely turned in this case. Snape has been publically humiliated because of actions Harry took (PoA), and privately humiliated when Harry saw his worst memory (OotP). Again, Harry has managed to get some revenge, especially as a schoolboy taking on a schoolteacher. I would also question the idea that JKR sees the scenes mentioned as proper justice. An easy and telling test, in my opinion, is to imagine how Dumbledore would have reacted to those scenes. Keep in mind that two involved a child being attacked by an adult. And remember this scene from OotP (scholastic ed p. 616): "Professor Umbridge seized Marietta, pulled her around to face her, and began shaking her very hard. A split second later Dumbledore was on his feet, his wand raised. Kingsley started forward and Umbridge leapt back from Marietta, waving her hands in the air as though they had been burned. " 'I cannot allow you to manhandle my students, Dolores,' said Dumbledore, and for the first time, he looked angry." I don't think I'm going too far out on a limb to say that Dumbledore would not have approved of any of the proffered scenes. And if Dumbledore wouldn't approve, I dare say JKR would not approve either. No, I'm pretty sure that any evil doers will suffer a fairly clearcut form of justice, possibly even a poetic one (Umbridge?), but not, I think, a vicarious one. Betsy, whose first attempt at a response was apparently eaten by Yahoo!mort From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 13 23:15:24 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:15:24 -0000 Subject: Mixing pre-teens and young adults in WW & RW was Re:School year system in the UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marcelle" wrote: > I'm not talking about different ages mixing in structured, after > school clubs, where there is a purpose to the gathering and an adult > moderator. My point is that the 17 year olds are sitting at the > same relaxed lunch table right next to the 11 year olds, who are > simply soaking up all the ridiculous teenage drama that the older > kids have experienced in a few short years. Its not that I think > the 7th years are hanging out with the 1st years teaching them how > to smoke cigarettes and do tequila shots ? to me it's the younger > kids keeping their ears open from the corners of the common > room, "learning" by hearing tidbits of teenage "wisdom." IE: Parts > of more advanced, potentially more dangerous magic. Parts of > hormonal encounters. Well, 13 and 14 year old kids have plenty of hormones, as I know from experience. Its all part of growing up. As for learning: there will always be kids that want to experiment, and they will do so, no matter how much people try to 'protect' them. Anybody who truly believes keeping children in the dark works is i.m.o. naive. > IMHO, kids younger than 15 have plenty enough kid stuff to keep them > occupied other than hormones. JKR doesn't introduce dating as a > concept for the main characters until GOF. The only mention of > teenage dating before that that I can remember is Percy and > Penelope ? when Percy was a sixth year (16 y.o.) in COS. If children younger than 15 are early developers they will have plenty of hormones to deal with. A body develops in its own time, not according to what other people think is appropriate. And 13 and 14 year olds can have lot of hormones to deal with. I prefer them to know what happens in their bodies and to give them means how to handle it. We see Harry develop feelings for Cho in PoA, when he is 13 years old. We see Hermione have a huge crush on Lockhart in CoS. > to which celletiger answers: > Yes, but positive role models must be available. My mother is my > role model now, but believe me, when I was a teenager, I worshiped > rock stars and the stupid older high school guys who could get > beer. Bad influences, certainly, but it wasnt cool to worship mom > who said no alcohol when the cute football player was holding the > tap. Well, that is what you get when mom says no alcohol, as if drinking is evil instead of mom learning the kid how to handle it. I'm dutch and the legal age of buying low alcohol level drinks like beer is 16 years. Most of us have had beer before that, usually at home. I've had wine for Christmas dinner when I still was at primary school. Just a little bit, to be included and feel grown up too, which I did not finish because it tasted horribly. Its not a big deal. Unless ofcourse people make it so, by forbidding it and making it in this mysterious only grown up, dangerous thing. Then its suddenly cool, etc. The lure of the forbidden fruit and all that. Assume the same goes in the WW - if an older kid knows how to > do certain magics - isn't there an allure for some younger kids to > want to learn those secret/more advanced/dangerous/dark! magics? Nope. If a younger kid wants to learn these things it will go looking for them. Knowing these things exist is usually enough. And depending on how much he wants to learn, he will succeed. The only reason things got wrong in her case is that she used the wrong kind of hair. But for Ron and Harry it worked beautifully. Hermione did, and succeeded quite easily. Hermione heard about polyjuice in class, from her teacher. I expect there is plenty more information about dangerous magics in the Daily Prophet for example. Or in wizard children's books with evil characters. I've known 14 year olds who smoked pot. Most of us were just not interested. Not in smoking, not in pot. Growing older did not make a difference. Gerry From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri May 13 23:25:24 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:25:24 -0000 Subject: Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius' trial?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" wrote: > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > > > > > To tell you the truth, now I am wondering even more whether non-use > > of Veritaserum was a plot hole. > Angie here: Along that same vein, I've wondered why it Veritaserum wasn't used on the students in COS, or for that matter, when the Chamber was opened the first tine. I know all about privacy rights, the right not to condemn yourself, etc., but sometimes those rights are outweighed by safety considerations. Not that I would condone its use for every little thing, but the events in COS would seem to me to be the type of extraordinary circumstances which would warrant its use, especially when someone died the first time the Chamber was opened. From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Fri May 13 23:25:33 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 23:25:33 -0000 Subject: Mixing pre-teens and young adults in WW & RW was Re:School year system in the UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128891 > to which celletiger answers: > Yes, but positive role models must be available. My mother is my > role model now, but believe me, when I was a teenager, I worshiped > rock stars and the stupid older high school guys who could get > beer. Bad influences, certainly, but it wasnt cool to worship mom > who said no alcohol when the cute football player was holding the > tap. Assume the same goes in the WW - if an older kid knows how to > do certain magics - isn't there an allure for some younger kids to > want to learn those secret/more advanced/dangerous/dark! magics? Years ago, when my oldest started Jr. High (in S.E. Michigan) there was a panic because they were combining the Jr. High and the High School. There were all kinds of parent meetings before the term started to try to calm them down. It's been years now and nothing at all happened. The 11 yo's weren't led astray by the older kids, nor were they invited to even hang around them. Face it, older kids do not want younger kids around. As far as role models, I'm thinking that's what the prefects and head boys and girls are for. Not to mention that if Hogwarts is anything like the schools around here, misbehavior or poor grades can get a Quidditch player kicked off of the team. As the mother of two grown daughters I don't see a problem with a mixed school. Face it, years ago it was the norm, and just because we don't do it here in the US for the most part, doesn't mean it's wrong. I'm sure that if it caused problems the UK would have changed things. Obviously it hasn't. In the HP universe the only older kids that the trio seem to be involved with are fellow Quidditch players or Ron's older brothers. The twins do use the younger kids for their experiments, but then the other kids (Hermione) watches out for them. Sounds pretty normal to me. Casey From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat May 14 01:14:09 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 01:14:09 -0000 Subject: TBAY: DRIBBLE SHADOWS (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128892 > Potioncat looks around. Everyone is thinking. But what, she wonders, > are they thinking? The slight breeze is growing stronger and cooler. > Comfortable now, but threatening a real storm. Potioncat looks out > at the vessels in the bay. Even the most seaworthy ones look a bit > battered. "Sure is pleasant, isn't it?" Jen remarked to Potioncat, noticing the group around the battered life preserver had dispersed one-by-one for the weekend. Or maybe the empty margarita pitcher had something to do with it. "You know what I'm thinking?" Jen said suddenly, animated by the thought of a good canon discussion. "No, actually I don't," Potioncat sighed, "SSSusan is the Occlumens, remember?" Jen grimaced at Potincat's little joke and went on. "It's about that shiny canonball Neri summoned earlier today, Voldemort's speech at the graveyard." Potioncat murmured something in agreement, her head resting on the back of the lounge chair, eyes closed. A drifting audience never stopped Jen though, she pushed ahead. "Well first, just to set things straight with Neri, I originally said the dragon ointment was an *additional* protection" Jen pouted, "One that keeps Harry safe at times when forced to leave the blood protection at the Dursleys. I never said that the ancient magic/blood protection isn't what keeps Harry safe at Privet Drive." Jen continued, oblivious to snoring from the general direction of Potioncat, who now had her head covered by a TURBAN-like towel and was looking quite distinguished. "So say the dragon blood is administered originally to Harry during the 24-hours, until he could get to the safety of the Dursleys. When the threat of LV returned Harry's first year, the ointment is re- administered and he continues to receive boosters throughout each year before returning to Privet Drive. Because surely there's more keeping him safe than 'being under the watchful eye of that Muggle-loving fool from morning to night'. Really, LV gives Dumbledore a bit too much credit, don't you think? It's not DD's mere prescence that messes things up for Voldemort, it's his **clever ideas**." Potioncat mumbled again, and Jen realized she was actually listening while dozing, quite an impressive skill. "So, what's your point Jen? I mean, we're getting to that, right?" A little huffily, Jen rummaged around in her backpack and pulled out a shiny ball labeled 'Prophecy'. "Useful, isn't it? No one knows exactly what it means and yet, on occasions like this, you pull it out and conjure up whatever you want. I asked Stoned!Harry to pick it up for me and he was quite obliging. Sweet boy, really. Surly at times, but...." She rolled her eyes. 15 year-old boys needed little explaining to Potioncat. "So, this orb tells us Harry possesses a 'power Voldemort knows not' right? Well, I think being protected by dragon blood, being extremely hard to bring down in any manner unless you hit the vulnerable area, is quite powerful isn't it? Harry gets nothing but protection while living at the Dursleys. With the ointment....he has power over LV." "And it really doesn't matter if the prophecy was made prior to his birth. The old self-fulfilling prophecy at work, eh? By attacking baby Harry, Voldemort sets in motion not only his own temporary demise, but also propels Dumbledore to think up one of his clever ideas, thus protecting Harry even more." Oblivious to Potioncat's snores, Jen happily speculated away, "And another thing, remember the infamous gleam? Well, DD sure knows where LV is vulnerable now, doesn't he? Right in the red, gleaming eyes. Hehehehe." Suddenly a shadow fell across her backpack, and Jen looked up to see SSSusan re-joining the party. "Suse! Hey! With more margarita mix, you dog, you. Sit down, sit down!!" The word 'margarita' caused Potioncat's eyes to fly open and she quickly resumed normal posture, reaching out her empty glass at the same time. "Fill 'er up, SSSusan. And please stay, won't you, please? We were just, er, chatting" Potioncat swung her head a few times in Jen's direction, oblivious to the frowns. "First, another toast!" SSSusan said enthusiastically, "To TURBAN!! A bloody brilliant idea from Potioncat, and a fine addition to DRIBBLE SHADOWS! Jen and I especially liked the visual of Snape wrestling with 15-mos. old Harry as he tightened the TURBAN around his head!" SSSusan, obviously a few margaritas down the road from Jen and Potioncat, fell laughing off the longe chair, undoubtedly imagining Alan Rickman as Snape in that particular scene. ;) "Seriously though," SSSusan sat back down, "This issue about Dumbledore is bothering me. People accusing him of lying because he said *he* placed the charm. The dragon ointment was his idea!! He's the one who understands the 12 uses for dragon blood and recruited Snape and Hagrid. Maybe there's even a Dumbledore incantation you have to mutter while applying the ointment! Heck if I know" "But why did he have to say 'my charm' in OOTP?!" Jen exclaimed, "people don't like him taking the glory if several people were involved with the dragon-blood ointment. Especially Snape fans. You *know* how people feel about Snape losing his rightful glory!" Susan looked surpised, expecting a little more canon depth from her friend at the moment. "He's not exactly going to sit Harry down in OOTP, at the moment he hates Snape more than he ever has, and tell him Snape actually helped protect him! You think Harry would believe that? Duh. And if he brings up Hagrid, well Harry would never believe Hagrid mixed an ointment of dragon-blood on his own. All roads lead to Snape on this one. Better to give Harry part of the story and move on." Jen nodded wisely, "Ahhhhhh, yes. Smart guy, Dumbledore. I would have done the same, of course." SSSusan neatly covered her mouth with her hand and made what sounded to be a choking noise. Potioncat feigned a noisy nose-blowing, and for a brief moment, Jen was finally silent. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 14 01:31:22 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 01:31:22 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128893 SSSusan: > > Any number of possibilities have been suggested: > > > > *That he deliberately chose Ginny, trusting she'd get caught, > > and thus the Weasley family (read: Arthur) would be discredited, > > and Arthur's Muggle Protection Act proposal would fail. greenfirespike: > Not sure how this would work, as we know that very few knew that > LV was TR. This would really only work if LV was outed at TR > before the diary was found. SSSusan: Actually, I'm not sure how people knowing about TR & Voldy would play into this particular scenario at all. If I've understood the argument, it's simply that Lucius Malfoy knew what the diary could do -- that is, release the basilisk. *If* he knew that could happen, and *if* he suspected the possessor of the diary would be caught & blamed, then he could frame a Weasley as a murderer, which would discredit Arthur at the ministry. This isn't one of the options that I actually buy into, but it's one I've seen bandied about here many times, which is why I presented it in the list of things which might've motivated Malfoy. I'd welcome correction of details from someone who knows this hypothesis better. Siriusly Snapey Susan From sophierom at yahoo.com Sat May 14 02:15:39 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 02:15:39 -0000 Subject: Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius' trial?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128894 "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > > > > > > > To tell you the truth, now I am wondering even more whether non-use > > > of Veritaserum was a plot hole. > Angie here: > > Along that same vein, I've wondered why it Veritaserum wasn't used on > the students in COS, or for that matter, when the Chamber was opened > the first tine. I know all about privacy rights, the right not to > condemn yourself, etc., but sometimes those rights are outweighed by > safety considerations. Not that I would condone its use for every > little thing, but the events in COS would seem to me to be the type of > extraordinary circumstances which would warrant its use, especially > when someone died the first time the Chamber was opened. Sophierom: If I understand correctly, Veritaserum has a parallel in real life or "muggle" society: Sodium Pentothal and other so called "truth serums". Even in the extraordinary circumstance of a school-related death, law enforcement in the U.S. (and I'd in suspect the U.K., as well) would not be authorized to use the substance on suspects without their consent. Also, truth serums are not guaranteed to provide the "truth"; they lower inhibitions, making it less likely that the individual under the influence of the serum will lie. From what I know (and I'll be the first to admit I don't know much!), truth serums are used in torture and interrogation settings, not in law enforcement and legal settings. Now, I know that Vertiaserum is a potion in a magical world, so we can assume or imagine that it would be more accurate or more powerful than a "muggle" truth serum. But I'm guessing that JKR did not just make up the most recent bit about Vertiaserum to cover a plot hole; I'll bet that Vertiaserum was actually based heavily on real-life truth serums. When do we actually see Veritaserum in canon? 1. Snape introduces the potion in Chapter 27 of GoF when he threatens to "slip" some into Harry's pumpkin juice (this is after Snape admits that Veritaserum is "controlled by very strict Ministry guidelines" Am. ed., 517). 2. Dumbledore actually uses it on Barty Crouch, Jr. in Chapter 35. My guess is that this is Dumbledore acting not as Headmaster or Chief of the Wizengamot, but as the head of the Order of the Phoenix. In this sense, he's acting outside of the law. 3. The other major use of Vertiaserum that I can remember is Umbridge in OotP; she slips some into Harry's tea, which he is smart enough not to drink. My reading of this is that Umbridge is doing this not as Undersecretary or Interim Headmistress but instead is acting in the same vigilante manner as she did when she sent the Dementor to attack Privet Drive in the beginning of OotP. Are there other examples from canon? As far as I can tell, all of the cases when JKR does use Vertiserum are examples of extra-legal activity of some kind or another. It doesn't seem to be a potion that the Ministry could use to prosecute a legal case; instead, it's a potion that's used to gain information. As Eggplant pointed out in post #128887, the Ministry is not interested in gaining information in the case of Sirius. If they were, they'd have held a trial and Sirius might have offered to testify under the influence of Vertiaserum (JKR's website). Instead, the Ministry was reacting to a long war and wanted nothing but to lock Sirius away. In the case of the Chamber of Secrets being opened in Tom Riddle's day, there's no desire to find out the "truth" when the officials accept Tom Riddle's story and call the situation a bad accident, expelling Hagrid in the process. Now, Hagrid could have demanded to tell his side of the story under Veritaserum, but he was expelled in his third year at Hogwarts. Harry doesn't even discover Veritaserum until his fourth year, and even then it's only because Snape threatens him with it. So, there's no guarantee that Hagrid even knew of Veritaserum. Sophierom From ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com Sat May 14 02:24:35 2005 From: ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com (ReturnOfTheMutt at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 22:24:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mixing pre-teens and young adults in WW & RW was Re:Schoo... Message-ID: <8.68691412.2fb6bb63@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128895 Haven't really been following the conversation, and this is a random thought that poped into my head before finishing the first message I read in this thread, but: I think the reason wizarding classrooms are segregated by age is for the same reason they do it in the real world. It's easier to teach children who are at the same level. It's difficult to determine the abilities and levels of each individual, so the easiest thing to do is assume that children of the same age learn at the same level. They can't been that far off from each other anyway. It has nothing to do with picking up bad things from the older kids. Mutt. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celletiger at yahoo.com Sat May 14 02:27:22 2005 From: celletiger at yahoo.com (Marcelle) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 02:27:22 -0000 Subject: Mixing pre-teens and young adults in WW & RW was Re:School year system in the UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128896 Snip > As far as role models, I'm thinking that's what the prefects and > head boys and girls are for. Not to mention that if Hogwarts is > anything like the schools around here, misbehavior or poor grades > can get a Quidditch player kicked off of the team. > > As the mother of two grown daughters I don't see a problem with a > mixed school. Face it, years ago it was the norm, and just because > we don't do it here in the US for the most part, doesn't mean it's > wrong. I'm sure that if it caused problems the UK would have changed > things. Obviously it hasn't. > > In the HP universe the only older kids that the trio seem to be > involved with are fellow Quidditch players or Ron's older brothers. > The twins do use the younger kids for their experiments, but then > the other kids (Hermione) watches out for them. Sounds pretty normal > to me. > > Casey celletiger: I never meant that "mixing" was wrong. I simply meant that, to me - and from my life experiences - it seems foreign and potentially unhealthy that the 11 year old witches and wizards would be at school with the 17 year old magicians. I suppose I've seen too much in the various media and entertainment venues to not want children involved in adult matters - or half of what is "out there" today. I, for one was a perfect little golden child who got mixed up with a crazy bunch of older teens. The bad choice I made as a 14 year old to hang out with the more worldly 16 year olds affects my life to this day. This is teetering OT - I've tried to keep it safe by demonstrating the correlation between the RW and student life at Hogwarts. I think restricting certain books that contain information unsuitable for all students at Hogwarts is illustriative of my point. There are other examples of age being an appropriate barrier for younger people in the WW. Entering the TT, of course. Apparation. Membership in the OotP. I think that many of us remember parts our adolescence with strong emotions and everyone is entitled to trip down their own memory lane. I, for one, am enjoying reading about this particular young wizard and his teenage triumphs and tribulations. celletiger From patientx3 at aol.com Sat May 14 02:56:50 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 02:56:50 -0000 Subject: Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius' trial?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128897 dumbledore11214 wrote: > To tell you the truth, now I am wondering even more whether non-use > of Veritaserum was a plot hole. Eggplant replied: >>I know a plot hole when I see one,and in no way is that a plot hole! I am not the slightest bit surprised that Veritaserum was not used at Sirius' trial. In the first place Sirius never had a trial, in the second place finding the truth was never an important consideration by the cowardly, corrupt and moribund Ministry Of Magic. A dozen people were murdered and the public demanded somebody to blame and the Ministry supplied the villain, Sirius Black; everybody was happy and they could all now continue with their pointless dull life.<< Rebecca: I agree with Eggplant, its not surprising at all that Veritaserum wasn't used when he was arrested. In addition to above, you also need to consider Sirius' frame-of-mind when he was arrested. Even if they did use it, its likely that he would have said he *was* responsible since his guilt made him feel like that was true (he claims to be responsible in the Shrieking Shack). Also, he was near-insane (as far as the laughter indicates) when he was arrested, and I'd guess, from the fact that his best friend was just murdered, that after he calmed down he became depressed and apathetic. It might be that he wasn't trying that hard to claim his innocence. Veritaserum, like Legimency, becomes too much of an "easy way out" for much of the plot. I don't think people in the WW would jump to either one for anything that seems out of order (like Dumbledore using it on *every* member of the original Order to find out who the traitor was). There's just too many variables, and its in violation of personal privacy (as corrupt as the MoM is). If they used it on any person who was suspected of a crime, I can just imagine how it could be abused. If they suspected someone of a crime they couldn't prove, they could just arrest them for someone else's crime, and then when the person proclaims their innocence, just pull out the Veritaserum and ask whatever they want (rough example, I know). And, of course, there are people like Umbridge who would just use it without telling the person. If it was universally believed, no secret would be safe, whether it was illegal activity or not. This could have caused quite a bit of problems during OotP, imagine if the Ministry had the power to give every worker Veritaserum and ask them all if they are working with Dumbledore? Thank God their corruption can't reach *that* far. -Rebecca From celletiger at yahoo.com Sat May 14 03:02:43 2005 From: celletiger at yahoo.com (Marcelle) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 03:02:43 -0000 Subject: Fake Veritaserum/Good!Snape?? wasRe: Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128898 Sophierom noted from canon: > 3. The other major use of Vertiaserum that I can remember is Umbridge > in OotP; she slips some into Harry's tea, which he is smart enough not > to drink. My reading of this is that Umbridge is doing this not as > Undersecretary or Interim Headmistress but instead is acting in the > same vigilante manner as she did when she sent the Dementor to attack > Privet Drive in the beginning of OotP. snip celletiger: I always figured that the Veritaserum that Umbridge attempted to give Harry wouldn't have worked even if he did drink it, because Snape made it for her, and Snape is a member of the OotP and a veteran memeber of the Hogwarts faculty. Just like he "convieniently" doesnt have anymore Veritaserum to offer Umbridge after catching H & H in her office. Love that scene. Am I wrong about Snape and the potency of the Veritaserum in Umbridge's tea? celletiger From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 14 03:49:33 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 03:49:33 -0000 Subject: Fake Veritaserum/Good!Snape?? wasRe: Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128899 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marcelle" wrote: > celletiger: > I always figured that the Veritaserum that Umbridge attempted to give > Harry wouldn't have worked even if he did drink it, because Snape made > it for her, and Snape is a member of the OotP and a veteran memeber of > the Hogwarts faculty. Just like he "convieniently" doesnt have anymore > Veritaserum to offer Umbridge after catching H & H in her office. > Love that scene. Am I wrong about Snape and the potency of the > Veritaserum in Umbridge's tea? > celletiger Dubledore says it was fake to Harry, p. 734 OoP Bloomsbury hardcover edition Gerry From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sat May 14 04:43:41 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 04:43:41 -0000 Subject: Draco's crime ( Repost of Amy Z post) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128900 > Betsy: > Also, I really see a bias here when folks jump all over Draco for > not being all ears during Hagrid's lecture (taking place outside, > where it's even easier to drift) and then turn around and blame > Snape because Neville doesn't follow directions written out on a > blackboard. Every other professor at Hogwarts starts their classes > out with fairly benign magic, and still caldrons get melted and > feathers blow up. Hagrid decides to start *his* class out with a > creature that earns a level 3 classification from the MoM. (My > theory is that Hagrid geared his classes towards his own preferences > rather than thinking about his students. A beginners mistake, I > would imagine.) You could make the same argument about Snape. As I recall, when we were talking about Snapes teaching style, one of the things (positively) brought up was that his students were so very advanced for their grade. Maybe Snape's at fault for Neville by teaching students how to run before they can walk in potions? Or I could make the opposite arguement about Hagrid. Maybe he was merely attempting to help the kids become advanced :) Which Harry (who followed instructions) certainly seems to become considering what he accomplishes later. I mean, if Hagrid were really an awful teacher DD wouldn't have let him teach, right? He would never sacrifce the wee one's education for any reason, right? I think the difference between Neville and Draco is this: There isn't any evidence that is deliberately not following instructions and more than ample evidence he is just screwing up because Potions is hard. I can remember being in my chem classes and screwing up all the while following directions. some things are just difficult to do and more than just pluging things into an equation. Draco on the other hand was in total safety and would have been fine if he just listened. he didn't accidently screw up, he deliberately disobeyed Hagrid because he was didn't want to listen to the stupid half-blood freak. wildly different animals imo. > Betsy: > But milking an injury isn't the same as faking an injury. sure it is. its called fraud. and it happens to be very illegal. which is why, If I slip and fall on my behind in wallmart I can't walk into court with a neckbrace on and get more money. > Betsy: > Oh, Draco manipulated the aftermath magnificently. But again, the > attack happened, Lucius used it to try and hurt Dumbledore, and > Draco went along for the ride. Seems a little passive for murder > accusations to me. Well, maybe not murder, but how about Accessory After the Fact? He could have spoke up at anytime and said what his injuries actually were and what the responsibility he bore in the incident was, but he didn't. I think that is enough for him to bear at least some responsibility for the creatures death. phoenixgod2000, who didn't really want to bring Snape back into the argument but just had to. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat May 14 05:45:45 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:45:45 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Actually, I'm not sure how people knowing about TR & Voldy would > play into this particular scenario at all. If I've understood the > argument, it's simply that Lucius Malfoy knew what the diary could > do -- that is, release the basilisk. *If* he knew that could > happen, and *if* he suspected the possessor of the diary would be > caught & blamed, then he could frame a Weasley as a murderer, which would discredit Arthur at the ministry. > > Tonks: Sorry to bring all of this up again. But heck, why not. This whole thing about LM having Tom Riddles "old things" is quite a mystery to me. First LM can't be a relative, because Tom is the last of the Slytherin line. Course the way that all the old wizarding families are related might make LM and Tom relatives of some sort, through Tom's mother's side. It would seem that unlike all the other DE'er including LM's very own sister-in-law, LM knows that LV and TR are the same. Or does he? How can this be? Wouldn't he have told his own wife and she would have told her sister Bella?? So does LM know or not? Didn't the diary have Tom's name on it?? Was LM LV's right hand man and that is how he got everything. And even then how did he get these things and when? And how does LM know what the diary will do? Has he tried to use it? Surely he knows better than to do that if he doesn't know what it will do. Did LV tell him? Why? Wouldn't LV not want anyone to know that he was Tom? And Dobby must have overheard something more than just LM and NM talking. There are just too many unanswered questions here. Was Dobby always the Mayfoy's elf, or was he connected to LV and that is why he knows? Maybe this is part of what HBP will expand upon. There certainly is a lot left out of book 2. What did LM know or not know? What did he expect to happen? And the second question would depend on the answer to question 1. I don't think that we can really know anything for sure. Let's look at the facts and questions: 1. Ministry raids and ML must get rid of things that would be "dangerous" to him if found. (I forgot if it would be because he had items of "dark magic", or LV things. Why was the ministry raiding when they did not think that LV was around?? Who initiated the raids and why? ) 2. Dobby knows something. We really don't know what he knows, how he found it out and if he really came on his own. It seems that he came on his own, but why would he do something so out of character for a house elf? 3. LM sells some items at Knockturn Alley. He still has the diary when he meets the Weasley's at the bookstore. Now we do not really know what LM planned to do with the diary. It could be that giving it to Ginny was done on the spur of the moment out of anger. Maybe he only intended to have an item of Dark Magic show up in the Weasley home where Arthur would get in trouble. Maybe LM didn't know it would end up at school. Maybe only Dobby knew, sort of a seer himself. I just can't see a direct cause and effect here. Granted it has been awhile since I read the 2nd. book. I did see the "other media" last week, but I know that it doesn't always match the book. There just seems to be some gapping holes in this whole "plot". Holes that JKR hopes that we will fill in with the wrong information I am sure. Again some part of the "plot" that we as a group have explored just don't fit quite right with other information such as Bella not knowing. Yes, she was in Askaban until book 5, but even so it still seems strange. LM would have had to get the stuff just after LV turned to vapor and when Bella went to prison and what?... figured out that LV was Tom then? I just can't figure it all out. How would LM have known what the diary would do? Just too many loose ends here. ??????????? Tonks_op From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sat May 14 09:20:11 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:20:11 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128902 *might as well participate* 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hedwig or Ron or both. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Merlin. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She was blind. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones or a new character Percy will work under. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. (Be afraid.) 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All but History of Magic/possibly Divination. I think he'd be excused partially for his Astronomy mapping since the distraction halted the class prematurely. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Ron and Hermione will Kiss. 2. Grawp will actually get better at English; (seemingly on his own, unless Hagrid helps.) 3. Harry's dreams will become more controllable. (Lucidly dreaming? I do think he's more of a Legillimens that's why he's having problems with Occlumency training.) 4. Pr. Binns will finally retire. 5. Part of Molly's bogart vision will come true. From aggiescatz at aol.com Fri May 13 20:53:26 2005 From: aggiescatz at aol.com (kittykataddict) Date: Fri, 13 May 2005 20:53:26 -0000 Subject: Number of DEs in Graveyard (was Re: Voldemort's recruitment . ..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128903 > > a_svirn wrote: > > > There were about 30 DE in the Graveyard, and we've been > > > told only about a dozen names. > > > > Rebecca: > > Were there 30 in the graveyard? From the description in the > > book it seems like 20 at the most, though I could be mistaken. > > a_svirn: > That was at the beginning at the Chapter 34: > > " and what use would it be to deprive Voldemort of his > wand, even if he could, when he was surrounded by Death Eaters, > outnumbered by at least thirty to one?" In a stressful situation, particularly when death seems imminent and especially in the dark, I think the human mind has a habit of exaggerating the threat. Ten people can look like fifty. I would like to think JKR is aware of this and uses it most effectively to accentuate the sense of danger Our Boy feels in his current predicament. We are seeing the World through Harry's eyes - which of us can claim, with conviction, that the way we see things is as they truly are? (and if you can - the men in white coats are just around the corner...). How much time do you think he had to count the number of adversaries? It's all about perspective - at least this is the theory I've applied to the several numbers/names/figures discrepancies I've come across in the books. Does it really matter how many DEs there were? Is it important to the plot-line? When a few get wiped out, I'm sure some more will appear to fit the story. In the end, it only matters what JKR wants us to see and when she will allow us to see it. T From wherr009 at umn.edu Sat May 14 05:28:38 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 05:28:38 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction (too lazy to do entire contest) - Pensieve Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128904 I'm too lazy to actually do the entire prediction contest so I'm only going to do one. I think that the bowl thing on the American cover is a pensieve, just like everyone else. My thoughts differ on whose it is. I think it might just be Lily or James' pensieve and this is how we find out more about Harry's parents. "wherr009" From wherr009 at umn.edu Sat May 14 06:21:21 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 06:21:21 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128905 Tonks wrote: > How would LM have known what the diary would do? Just too many > loose ends here. ??????????? wherr009 here: What if LM had used the diary and talked with Tom Riddle in it and they set the whole thing up together? From patientx3 at aol.com Sat May 14 11:47:14 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 11:47:14 -0000 Subject: Number of DEs in Graveyard (was Re: Voldemort's recruitment . ..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128906 a_svirn wrote: >>>> There were about 30 DE in the Graveyard, and we've been told only about a dozen names. <<<< Rebecca previously: >>> Were there 30 in the graveyard? From the description in the book it seems like 20 at the most, though I could be mistaken. <<< a_svirn replied: >> That was at the beginning at the Chapter 34: " and what use would it be to deprive Voldemort of his wand, even if he could, when he was surrounded by Death Eaters, outnumbered by at least thirty to one?" << kittykataddict replied: >> In a stressful situation, particularly when death seems imminent and especially in the dark, I think the human mind has a habit of exaggerating the threat. Ten people can look like fifty. << Rebecca: First, thanks a_svirn for providing the quote, I missed that when I was skimming the chapter for a reference to the number of death- eaters. HOWEVER, I do agree with kittykataddict that its possible that Harry's mind exaggerated the number of DEs. If there were really thirty, I'd wager that *at least* one of them is going to be important later, since they were explicably *not* mentioned (were there any that Sirius mentioned earlier in the book that Voldemort didn't mention? Or that were in the DoM in OotP?). It'd be easy enough to fill the empty DE places with your ESE! theory of choice; except, of course, for any of the people who were known to be at Hogwarts at that time (which, sadly, includes Fudge, my favorite ESE!...but that's another matter). kittykataddict continued: >> Does it really matter how many DEs there were? Is it important to the plot-line? << Rebecca: It was relevent to the discussion we were having about the seeming absense of any older generation Death Eaters. If there are a large number of Death Eaters not mentioned, then it greatly increases the chances that there are some non-imprisoned, living DEs out there who weren't still in school when Voldemort first rose to power. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sat May 14 13:00:15 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:00:15 -0000 Subject: Skewed Justice (was Draco's crime) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: I think Amy's post brings up a good point > when she says that the whole thing is oddly formal for the simple > putting down of an animal. there was a criminal trial with lawyers > and witnesses and everything else you would attribute to a human > criminal trial. The man who did it was an executioner and the > Minister of magic himself showed up to preside over it. Prime > minister is kind of an important job and you would think that he > would have something better to do than show up at what basically > amounts to putting an animal to sleep. I think Draco's actions were > going to end up getting a pretty sophisticated creature being killed. Marianne: Yes, it does sound like a lot of formality for the task at hand. And if you are correct that the basis of all of this (trial, lawyers, executioner and the attendance by the Minister of Magic) is because of the level of sophistication or sentience of Buckbeak, this once again shows the skewed nature of the justice system in the WW. All of this process and effort and time is devoted to an animal, while humans are summarily thrown into Azkaban with no trial whatsoever. Unless, of course, all of the attention given to Buckbeak's, and by extension, Hagrid's, situation is merely to heighten the tension for the reader. OTOH, perhaps this is not so far removed from instances in our own world. When reading Phoenixgod's post I couldn't help but think of a recent event in South Carolina, where a law was passed making cock- fighting a felony. At the same time efforts to raise the severity for domestic violence crimes to the felony level were defeated. Marianne From aggiescatz at aol.com Sat May 14 12:32:54 2005 From: aggiescatz at aol.com (kittykataddict) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 12:32:54 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128908 1. Most major character to die: One of the Weasleys (Percy or Molly). I think Ron (and possibly Hermione)will die in Book 7. (PLEASE PLEASE not Lupin!) 2. HBP: a new character. 3. Lily was a Seer. (Possibly the young woman from one of the prophecies smashed the night Sirius died) 4. DADA teacher: a new character, as useless as Lockhart and more evil than Umbridge. 5. Harry will have another fling with some shallow pretty girl (Parvati, Cho's balaklava'd friend?) before moving on to his true soulmate, Ginny, in Book 7 6. New MOM: Have to jump on the bandwagon and say Amos Diggory 7. Bowl-thing: The Hogwarts Pensieve 8. Harry will definitely take Advanced Potions (we don't want Snape to have an easy life!) 9. Neville won't (we don't want Snape to have an easy life!) in order to devote more time to Herbology, in preparation for a career as a Hogwarts teacher. 10. OWLs: Potions O (no reason to believe he can't if Snape's not around to sabotage him), Herbology A, Astronomy A (allowances will be made), CoMC O (he's had enough practice with Hagrid!), Transfiguration E, Charms E, DADA O (of course) Predictions: 1. Harry will start to rely on Ginny's frienship and advice more. 2. Narcissa Malfoy will try to get Dumbledore sacked (or killed) 3. Harry will become Quidditch captain 4. The Trio will have a massive fight and not talk to one another for several weeks (Harry will spend more time with Ginny, who'll be a Gryffendor Chaser) 5. Harry will find a way to talk to Sirius again (even though he really IS dead) kittykataddict From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat May 14 13:35:09 2005 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 06:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mixing pre-teens and young adults in WW & RW was Re:School year system in the UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050514133509.25800.qmail@web30111.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128909 > Assume the same goes in the WW - if an older kid > knows how to > > do certain magics - isn't there an allure for some > younger kids to > > want to learn those secret/more > advanced/dangerous/dark! magics? The interesting point here is that in HP (and I'm going to keep it about the book, because if I start talking about my personal views I will never shut up) the times that we have seen characters do this is has been thier idea and not something they picked up from older students. I mean, Hermione didn't need some older student to tell her about polyjuice potion - she learned about it in class. Dumbledore even gave Harry the cloak for sneaking around. Older students didn't tell them to go into the COS or to go looking for the PS. What info/help they got from Fred and George they sought out - didn't just overhear and decide to do it (possible exception of passageways to Hogsmeade here). MWPP also didn't seem to get their cue from the older students. I just think it's worth pointing out. Rebecca __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Sat May 14 15:20:42 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 15:20:42 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128910 First, an apology to everybody for replying so late to a post. Work, life, etc. But that is no excuse for not keeping up. I'll iron my hands later. To business: --- Steve wrote: I don't think Kreacher is > still bonded by anything but general loyalty. As far as magical bonds > or slavery, he has lost his Master, as well as all other Black > ascendants and descendants, and is now a free agent. Again, I want to > emphasize that even though I believe Kreacher is a free agent, he is > still very loyal and dedicated to the Black family. > Constance Vigilance (me): I agree with you up to this point. I think Kreachur is not bound to anybody. But Kreachur is an interesting case. No longer bound, he does have powerful feelings of loyalty. There are no Blacks (unless you count the sisters and Draco), but I think there may be one new one that may inspire Kreachur's loyalty. I'm referring to Hermione. I think her Christmas gift to him may affect him deeply. Let's think about Dobby for a minute. In CoS, Harry speaks gently to him and Dobby is overwhelmed. Harry and Ron give him Christmas gifts and Dobby is thrilled. It is even a gift (of clothing) that breaks his bonds. Kindness and generosity are powerful things in the House Elf world. We do not know how similar Kreachur might be to Dobby. But I do think that Hermione's kindness and generosity will rebound in a good way with Kreachur. Steve: > In truth, sad as it is, and hard as it is to accept, I think Kreacher > is dead. Dumbledore, benevolent as he is, simply could not allow a > dangerous and unstable liability like Kreacher to continue, especially > now that here was nothing to fully bind him to the House of Black. > With nothing and no one to fully contain and control Kreacher, he was > just too dangerous. It was the life of one very mad and deranged > house-elf weighed against the lives of many many others. While I think that Dumbledore can be ruthless when necessary, I just don't see this happening in this case. I think Kreachur can be turned with kindness. The Headmaster has sort of said that when he kept telling Sirius to treat Kreachur with kindness. I think that not only is Kreachur alive, but that he will be a critical ally in the coming war. Maybe not right away. Kreachur is in a position of great personal conflict. And we know that House Elves are predisposed to angst. It will be interesting. ~Constance Vigilance From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Sat May 14 16:19:47 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:19:47 -0000 Subject: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doug Pratt" wrote: > > Yes, I actually am a rocket scientist...but I am having problems > > getting my head around some of the dates in the HP canon. > > > > Let me see if I have this right. Tom Riddle and Hagrid were in school > > together, although not necessarily the same year. Hagrid gets expelled > > and Dumbledore persuades Dippet to train him as gamekeeper. Malfoy, > > Arthur Weasley and Molly Soon-to-be-Weasley were in school at around > > the same time. > > > Carol responds: > I'm sure that by now you've consulted the Lexicon, but just in case > you haven't--Tom Riddle aka Voldemort is about 66 at the time of > "Chamber of Secrets"; Lucius Malfoy is 41 at the end of "Goblet of > Fire." He's about five years older than the Marauders and Snape, > nowhere near the same age as Riddle/Voldemort and the slightly younger > Hagrid. The Weasleys are problematic, but they seem to be even older > than Voldemort. > > Carol I'm not sure they have to be that much older then Harry's parents. The Lexicon lists James and Lily as havinging been born in 1960. Charlie the oldest Weasley child went to Hogwarts starting in 1984 which would mean he was born in 1972. So the Weasleys could be born in as late as 1952 and graduating around 1970. The problem with that is the gamekeeper position. Hagrid was expelled and around 1943. He would need to be in training for the gamekeeper job for for almost 20 years for this to be right. Lets split the diference. Lets say Hagrid was training for about 10 years. Then Molly would have been born in 1942. She would have been 30 years old when she first had Charlie and 39 when she had Ginny (born in 1981). So the most likely age would be closer to this. I doubt she would have been much older then 30 before she started having kids. Maybe she had a job before she started thinking about kids. It seems Wizards live long lives if they don't get killed. Since it sounds like she knew Ogg for a few years this could push the training to a bit longer. So I don't think she has to be anywhere near LV age to have this work out unless she didn't start having kids until she was in her mid to late 40s. Brent From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 14 16:51:12 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:51:12 -0000 Subject: HBP launch information Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128912 BBC Ceefax (page 502) is carrying news that the launch of HBP will be at Edinburgh Castle. At 00:01 on 16th. July, JKR will be reading from the book. From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 14 17:31:46 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:31:46 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128913 What is Lily's big secret? She was blind. This would be so amazing. Can anyone find canon to confirm or refute this suggestion? From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Sat May 14 17:39:39 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:39:39 -0000 Subject: Nit-picking Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128914 My son has just pointed out to me what may be a small mistake in Chapter 30 of Order of the Phoenix. On page 602 it says "They found seats in the topmost row of the stands". On the following page it says "Apparently he (Hagrid) had squeezed his way all along the row behind" Not in any way important, it's just that at 13 you feel delighted to have caught out an adult in a small mistake. Or are we mis=reading? From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat May 14 17:44:09 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:44:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I can't do the math! Message-ID: <192.3ff2c244.2fb792e9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128915 In a message dated 5/14/2005 12:22:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, spoonmerlin at yahoo.com writes: Charlie the oldest Weasley child went to Hogwarts starting in 1984 which would mean he was born in 1972. So the Weasleys could be born in as late as 1952 and graduating around 1970. The problem with that is the gamekeeper position. ----------------- Sherrie here: Except that Charlie ISN'T the oldest Weasley - he's the second-oldest. Bill is the oldest - at least a year, though I'm more inclined to think it's two. Sherrie Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stix4141 at hotmail.com Sat May 14 19:45:29 2005 From: stix4141 at hotmail.com (stickbook41) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 19:45:29 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128916 Chys Sage Lattes: > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? > She was blind. > stickbook: That's food for thought. Out of curiousity, what led you to this conclusion, Chys? CSL again: > 1. Ron and Hermione will Kiss. stickbook: I have a question about this contest. What if some thing like the above happens off-screen and Harry doesn't find out until much later (as in, Book 7), how will people get credit? Harry is wonderful, but let's face it, he's not the most astute observer. Shouldn't the contest requirement be that these predictions have to pan out in a way that Harry actively notices them? Ah, just another problem with the Shipping Wars... From HP5Freak at aol.com Sat May 14 20:42:31 2005 From: HP5Freak at aol.com (HP5Freak at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:42:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: I can't do the math! In-Reply-To: <192.3ff2c244.2fb792e9@aol.com> References: <192.3ff2c244.2fb792e9@aol.com> Message-ID: <8C726DC95CB0307-CFC-3654D@FWM-R27.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128917 -----Original Message----- From: MadameSSnape at aol.com To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 14 May 2005 13:44:09 EDT Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: I can't do the math! In a message dated 5/14/2005 12:22:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, spoonmerlin at yahoo.com writes: Charlie the oldest Weasley child went to Hogwarts starting in 1984 which would mean he was born in 1972. So the Weasleys could be born in as late as 1952 and graduating around 1970. The problem with that is the gamekeeper position. ----------------- Sherrie here: Except that Charlie ISN'T the oldest Weasley - he's the second-oldest. Bill is the oldest - at least a year, though I'm more inclined to think it's two. Sherrie Now, Amberlyn-- It is ENTIRELY possible, though, that Hagrid didn't become gamekeeper or asst gamekeeper right away. I mean he was 13-14 years old when expelled. Perhaps Dumbledore helped him out in some way. Then while Molly and Arthur were in school, they would have had Ogg. And when he retired, much like with Prof. Kettleburn, Dumbledore came to Hagrid with a job. Perhaps Hagrid worked at the Hog's Head for Aberforth, and took care of his goats. Maybe he traveled the world learning how to take care of creatures. From HP5Freak at aol.com Sat May 14 20:45:40 2005 From: HP5Freak at aol.com (HP5Freak at aol.com) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 16:45:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nit-picking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C726DD06914D66-CFC-36564@FWM-R27.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128918 -----Original Message----- From: rochesteruponmedway To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 14 May 2005 17:39:39 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nit-picking My son has just pointed out to me what may be a small mistake in Chapter 30 of Order of the Phoenix. On page 602 it says "They found seats in the topmost row of the stands". On the following page it says "Apparently he (Hagrid) had squeezed his way all along the row behind" Not in any way important, it's just that at 13 you feel delighted to have caught out an adult in a small mistake. Or are we mis=reading? Amberlyn: I noticed this same mistake in my copy. I figure it's just a minor flint. It doesn't say in the book that they moved seats at any point in the game. Or maybe there are 2 rows of seats in the topmost row. Since Quidditch is played above ground, the necessity for tiered seats may be somewhat negated. From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Sat May 14 21:45:33 2005 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:45:33 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128919 Compulsory Questions: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Vernon Dursley. I also think that one of the Creevey brothers will die, probably Dennis. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Hagrid. JKR said that COS held a key regarding this question. My question is: Why did Riddle want to get rid of Hagrid ? just because he wasn't a `pure-blood'? I don't think so. There's more to this than we know. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Lily knew about Lupin and had been helping him. It was thru this effort that she finally understood what James and his friends had gone thru to `protect' Lupin. Her heart softened, and let James in. The big secret is that Lupin really cared deeply for Lily ? and though she cared for him just as much, it wasn't `that' kind of love to her. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? So far it has always been a new character, being introduced for the first time. I don't think this formula will change. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. The ending of OOP gave us a clue that he sees her through different eyes. Perhaps by the end of HBP we'll start seeing Harry look at Ginny differently as well. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Dolores Jane Umbridge, who had previously been the undersecretary to the Minister. To keep the drama going, there has to be someone inept in this position. Hem, Hem, that said, Dolores would be the perfect person for the job. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It's definitely a pensive, but it doesn't look like Professor Dumbledore's. His was never described as cracked. I believe it will be pivotal to the plot, though. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Definitely. Without Snape's constant interruptions, Harry did well on his O.W.L.s 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. He has no interest in continuing with potions. If he does continue, it will be due to a relationship between Herbology and potions. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine. Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Spinners End will be where Petunia and Lily grew up. Harry will be taken there to show him happier times and better memories. 2. It will be discovered that Kreacher had placed a potion in the food/drink Sirius ate/drank, one that would make him very reckless. It built up over a period of time, to the point that instead of protecting himself in the fight in the Dept. of Mysteries, he actually felt infallible. 3. Whether it will come out in HBP or in Book 7, Snape was actually fostering Harry's inability to keep Voldemort out of his head. Not just because he got a kick out of it (which he did), but also because he needed to keep the dark lord appeased, or he might realize he was spying for Dumbledore. (Doesn't matter cuz Voldemort trusts no one.) 4. Harry and Ginny will get together, but probably not till Book 7. 5. Dobby will play an important role in the last book. 6. Barty Crouch, Jr. is alive and well, and should be in HBP, although still using Polyjuice potion to further Voldemort's aims. KathyO From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat May 14 21:50:32 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 21:50:32 -0000 Subject: Nit-picking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > My son has just pointed out to me what may be a small mistake in > Chapter 30 of Order of the Phoenix. > On page 602 it says > "They found seats in the topmost row of the stands". > On the following page it says > "Apparently he (Hagrid) had squeezed his way all along the row > behind" Not in any way important, it's just that at 13 you feel > delighted to have caught out an adult in a small mistake. Or are we > mis-reading? bboyminn: Language, it's a very trick thing; without it we can't communicate, but with it we fair only slightly better. This may be a mistake, but any good author with a good imagination can turn a mistake into an 'Oops, I meant to do that'. The quoted line indicates the top most row of STANDS; now we must wonder exactly what 'stands' means. Is it possible for the highest 'stand' to contain several rows of seats? If I was the author caught in the same mistake, that would certainly be my explanation. Now, if you are really looking for an inconsistency in stands/row/seats/chairs, re-read the Quidditch World Cup. By one measure there are two rows of chairs in the Top Box -- (pg 96) "About 20 purple-and-gilt chairs stood in two rows...". Harry and Co took up the entire front row; the Ministers (Fudge, Bagman, and at least 2 Bulgarians) , Malfoys(3), and Crouch's elf(2) took up the remaining back row. Yet, (pg99) "The Box gradually filled around them over the next half hour". Further (pg100) "Mr. Weasley kept shaking hands with people who were obviously very important wizards. Percy jumped to his feet so often that he looked as though he were trying to sit on a hedgehog". Also remember that this wasn't the top 'row', it was the top BOX, which implies it was a containted area. Further when the Veela began to dance, both Harry and Ron were ready to jump from the railing of the Top Box which implies that there weren't rows of seats in front of them. So, now the question becomes where did all these many many wizards who appear over the course of a half hour sit? No room in the box (only 20 seats), no room in front of the Box apparently, if they sat in other near by boxes then why were they in the Top Box? Again, with a little imagination, I can invent explanations, but lacking that necessarry imagination, the answer doesn't seem obvious. I really don't mind the inconsistencies as long as I only see them after-the-fact. As long as they don't interupt my reading, and so far they haven't, it does't bother me. Steve/bboyminn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 14 22:03:16 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 22:03:16 -0000 Subject: Number of DEs in Graveyard (was Re: Voldemort's recruitment . ..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "huntergreen_3" wrote: > a_svirn wrote: > >>>> There were about 30 DE in the Graveyard, and we've been told > only about a dozen names. <<<< > > Rebecca previously: > >>> Were there 30 in the graveyard? From the description in the > book it seems like 20 at the most, though I could be mistaken. <<< > > a_svirn replied: > >> That was at the beginning at the Chapter 34: > > " and what use would it be to deprive Voldemort of his > wand, even if he could, when he was surrounded by Death Eaters, > outnumbered by at least thirty to one?" << > > kittykataddict replied: > >> In a stressful situation, particularly when death seems imminent > and especially in the dark, I think the human mind has a habit of > exaggerating the threat. Ten people can look like fifty. << > > Rebecca: > First, thanks a_svirn for providing the quote, I missed that when I > was skimming the chapter for a reference to the number of death- > eaters. HOWEVER, I do agree with kittykataddict that its possible > that Harry's mind exaggerated the number of DEs. If there were really > thirty, I'd wager that *at least* one of them is going to be > important later, since they were explicably *not* mentioned (were > there any that Sirius mentioned earlier in the book that Voldemort > didn't mention? Or that were in the DoM in OotP?). It'd be easy > enough to fill the empty DE places with your ESE! theory of choice; > except, of course, for any of the people who were known to be at > Hogwarts at that time (which, sadly, includes Fudge, my favorite > ESE!...but that's another matter). > > kittykataddict continued: > >> Does it really matter how many DEs there were? Is it important to > the plot-line? << > > Rebecca: > It was relevent to the discussion we were having about the seeming > absense of any older generation Death Eaters. If there are a large > number of Death Eaters not mentioned, then it greatly increases the > chances that there are some non-imprisoned, living DEs out there who > weren't still in school when Voldemort first rose to power. a_svirn: Well, I suppose it possible that Hurry's calculations were somewhat exaggerated. However we mustn't forget that at that point most of the DE who would later feature at the DoM was still at Askaban. Out of those "thirty" DE who were present, only Lucius, McNair, Nott, Goyle and Avery were actually named by LV. So even if the stressed out Harry counted extra ten-odd DE it still leaves quite a few DE who went uncovered. And there is no question that there was DE whose identities is still unknown: "He walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them. "Macnair . . . destroying dangerous beasts for the Ministry of Magic now, Wormtail tells me? You shall have better victims than that soon, Macnair. Lord Voldemort will provide. ..." So who were those whom he passed in silence? We don't know and it is not out of the range of possibility that they were the missing "older" wizards. Moreover it would make sense for LV who is nothing after all, if not practical to put at risk those DE who had already been compromised. Remember Fudge reaction to Hurry's revelations in the hospital wing? He said: "You are merely repeating the names of those who were acquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!" said Fudge angrily. "You could have found those names in old reports of the trials! " a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 14 22:44:20 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 22:44:20 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128922 > Constance Vigilance: > > Kindness and generosity are powerful things in the House Elf world. We > do not know how similar Kreachur might be to Dobby. But I do think > that Hermione's kindness and generosity will rebound in a good way > with Kreachur. > a_svirn: Not likely, I am afraid. If we hate and despise someone we don't react in a positive way to their displays of kindness and generosity. In fact we would much rather prefer if they weren't kind and generous. It would only condemn them further in our eyes adding hypocrisy to the list of their sins. (And in case of Hermione- Kreacher dynamics he wouldn't be that far off thinking her a hypocrite). > > Constance Vigilance: I think Kreachur can be turned > with kindness. The Headmaster has sort of said that when he kept > telling Sirius to treat Kreachur with kindness. > a_svirn: I believe he sort of said that Kreacher could prove to be a problem. And so he did. a_svirn From jaanise at hello.lv Sun May 15 00:03:57 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JanisE) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:03:57 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's website In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c558e1$978af780$fac5f554@janisdat> No: HPFGUIDX 128923 -----Original Message----- From: Nora In other words, just like every other kind of magic within the books, Veritaserum is not infallible. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial. -------------------------- Jaanis: So, cannot elfs with their powerful magic resist the Veritaserum?... From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 15 01:26:40 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:26:40 -0000 Subject: Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius' trial?. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128924 Rebecca wrote: > I agree with Eggplant, its not surprising at all that Veritaserum wasn't used when he was arrested. In addition to above, you also need to consider Sirius' frame-of-mind when he was arrested. Even if they did use it, its likely that he would have said he *was* responsible since his guilt made him feel like that was true (he claims to be responsible in the Shrieking Shack). Also, he was near-insane (as far as the laughter indicates) when he was arrested, and I'd guess, from the fact that his best friend was just murdered, that after he calmed down he became depressed and apathetic. It might be that he wasn't trying that hard to claim his innocence. > > If it was universally believed, no secret would be safe, whether it > was illegal activity or not. This could have caused quite a bit of > problems during OotP, imagine if the Ministry had the power to give > every worker Veritaserum and ask them all if they are working with > Dumbledore? Thank God their corruption can't reach *that* far. Carol responds: What about performing Priori Incantatem on Sirius Black's wand (which must have been taken directly from his own hand when he was arrested)? Wouldn't that be less subject to abuse (certainly not dependent on the suspect's emotional state) than veritaserum or legilimency? If Black's wand was "not guilty" of performing a recent spell capable of blowing up a street, then he also would be "not guilty"--unless he somehow traded wands with Pettigrew, whose wand did contain the record of such a spell--and was presumably left lying in the street. (He did not have a wand with him when he was forced to assume human shape in the Shrieking Shack.) A DE like Lucius Malfoy might have more than one wand--one for performing illegal spells and one for daily use that could be inspected by the MoM with impunity--but in the case of someone caught in the act, as Black apparently was, it seems like a serious oversight to ignore the wand's "testimony." If Amos Diggory used it to incriminate poor Winky, surely one of the aurors investigating the murders would have used it to incriminate Sirius? (Or maybe the aurors refrained from doing it on the spot expecting that Mr. Crouch would want the evidence presented in court?) Now *there's* a plot hole if you want one. Carol, who does think JKR is just covering her tracks regarding veritaserum but has no way of supporting that opinion and consequently won't pursue the subject From yutu75es at yahoo.es Sun May 15 01:36:30 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:36:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted References: Message-ID: <003a01c558ee$868b1610$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 128925 My turn (Fridwulfa): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Victor Krum and/or Charlie Weasley. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She worked for the MoM / was able to perform wandless magic. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A new character. Felix Felicis, probably. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? With no one. He'll be too busy grieving for Sirius and fighting the bag guys. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Mafalda Hopkins 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Voldemort's pensieve, found in Lucius Malfoy's secret chamber. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? You bet. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? He most certainly will. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Six. He won't get OWLs in Divination, History of Magic and Astronomy Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Firenze will save Harry's life or help him the way he did in PS. 2. Hermione will help Hagrid teach Grwap some English and become very fond of the giant, who will learn faster thanks to her. 3. We'll see Aragog again and this time he and his "children" will help Harry. 4. Muggles will die. The Dursleys will be in great danger but not while Harry is with them. LV will understand that Harry's protected as long as he can return to his "home" once a year, and therefore try to destroy the Dursley's home and kill Petunia so he doesn't have said protection anymore. They'll survive, and Harry will visit Privet Drive on Xmas where he'll learn a lot of stuff about her mother. 5. Malfoy and the DE at the MoM will escape from Azkaban. 6. We'll meet Mr. Lovegood. 7. We'll see Rita Skeeter and Lockhart again. 8. Ron and Hermione will NOT start dating. From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 15 01:45:31 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 01:45:31 -0000 Subject: World Cup/papers from OoP/Amos and Winky/Hans Andrea/Neville/Godric's Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128926 Louis Ward wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128623 : << Hermione will have attended a second World Cup over the summer, on the invitation of Viktor. >> I think it would be the European Cup, or maybe 'just' the League Championship, because the QWC is only once every four years. Ludo was wrong (GoF UK hardcover p93) when he said it was the four hundred and twenty-second Quidditch World Cup. Quidditch Through the Ages, page 39-40 "The year 1473 saw the first ever Quidditch World Cup ... The World Cup has since been held every four years, altho' it was not until the seventeenth century that non-European teams turned up to compete. In 1652 the European Cup was established, and it has been played every three years since." Ludo was wrong (GoF UK hardcover p93) when he said it was the four hundred and twenty-second Quidditch World Cup. (4 * 422) + 1473 = 3161, no6 1995. Even if he meant 422nd *anniversary* of the QWC, that would be 1473 + 422 = 1895, not 1995. I guess Ludo is as bad at maths as JKR is. Tinglinger wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128637 : << That paper, like all papers described in OOP (DDs SK location, the Droobles gum wrapper, and this one) will be very important in HBP. >> There were also papers that Bill was showing to the adults of the Order when Harry arrived at Grimmauld Place, which he vanished with "Evanesco!" OOP UK hardcover p.77: "In the flash of light caused by Mrs Weaseley's charm Harry caught a glimpse of hwat looked like the plan of a building. Mrs Weasley had seen him looking. She snatched the plan off the table and stuffed into bill'slready overladen arms. 'This sort of thing ought to be cleared away promptly at the end of meetings,' she snapped, before sweeping off toward an ancient dresser from which she started unloading dinner plates. Bill took out his wand, muttered 'Evanesco!' and the scrolls vanished." 1) How did Bill have a spare hand for his wand? 2) Elsewhere in OoP, Evanesco! makes things go out of existence. Was Bill making these scrolls go out of existence? If they were documents that spies had risked their lives to steal from the enemy, destroying them seems wasteful.... K.M.G. wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128697 : << Remember how Amos Diggory treated Winky? >> Yes, but there are two different obvious perceptions. One is Amos Diggory is a bully, etc, and Arthur Weasley is a nice guy. Another is that Arthur and Amos were playing 'good cop, bad cop'. It is a well-known interrogation technique. One partner (the 'bad cop') begins the interrogation by asking questions in a bullying way, calling the suspect bad names, and threatening him. The other partner (the 'good cop') may be secretly watching from outside to know when to come into the interrogation, or may be present and showing ever more signs of discomfort at the harsh tactics. The 'good cop' interrupts the 'bad cop' by suggesting that he is being too hard on the suspect, speaks to the suspect kindly, sometimes offering him a cup of coffee or suggesting that he explain how it is that he is innocent. The suspect ends up giving the desired information (which might be used to prove his guilt) to the 'good cop' because of emotional feelings of trust and gratitude to the person who saved him from the 'bad cop' and treated him kindly. That Amos and Arthur could fall so automatically into a 'good cop, bad cop' procedure together suggests to me that, earlier in their Ministry careers, they were partners in some investigative or law-enforcement positions. Maybe even 'acting Aurors' when the first Voldemort crisis required a big increase of the Auror corps, and sent back to their previous departments after LV was defeated. Of course, the 'bad cop' role fits Amos's style -- he was pretty bullying in the way he spoke to Harry, enough so as to embarrass his son, and he didn't mean any harm or racism by it. Of course, the 'good cop' role fits Arthur's style -- we so often see him giving the soft answer that turneth away wrath. To the point that when (I can't remember when!) he said Hermione was right about House Elves being mistreated, but they don't have time to talk about that now, I suspected him of just 'diplomatically'getting her to shut up. Catkind wrote to Hans Andrea in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128713 : << Maybe more people would listen to you if you actually had some correct predictions. >> IIRC Hans correctly predicted that Harry would be injured in his hand in Book 5. Reed spaebrun wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128715 : << 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I don't think so. Why would he do that to himself? >> I have no idea whether Neville will take Advanced Potions, but I think he might secretly want to become a Healer (*waves at Finwitch*) and that requires the same NEWTs as McGonagall said are required for becoming an Auror. I don't think he would have *told* McGonagall (at Career Advice) that he wanted to be a Healer, because he would think it was too immodest; I wonder what he did tell her: blush bright red, look at the floor, and mumble "My Gran wants me to be an Auror"? Jen TBAYed in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/128778 : << Snape risked his life to deliver the carefully prepared ointment to James and Lily at Godric's Hollow on that fateful afternoon, and was met at the door by James and possibly Sirius Black. They chided him! >> How did Snape go to Godric's Hollow when it was hidden under Fidelius Charm? I've already argued that DD had the information in a note written by the Secret Keeper, Peter, but it was written in an imitation of Sirius's handwriting so as not to reveal to DD that Sirius wasn't the SK. Did DD show the note to Snape? That would have been a pretty big thing to do with someone else's Secret! In my theory, DD wouldn't have had to show the note to Hagrid because James would have sent Hagrid his own note. I'm sure James and Sirius trusted the big guy as much as DD did. From kersberg at chello.nl Sat May 14 20:51:21 2005 From: kersberg at chello.nl (kamion53) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 20:51:21 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128927 SSSusan: >>>I think, for instance, that his CoS diary stunt was all about trying to play for his own power and not at all about bringing back Voldy.<<< Rebecca: >> That's curious. What do you think he could have been trying to do? SSSusan: > Any number of possibilities have been suggested: > *Even, if one assumes that Lucius did understand the possibility > that Tom Riddle could return, that Lucius thought it would be > better to have a young, more-potentially-controllable Tom around > whom he could mold and manipulate and *use* in his own rise to > power. kamion53: I don't think Lucius was spontanious playacted to have a more potential controlable Tom Riddle back by dumping the TR-diary in Ginny cauldron. I think it's a action well planned about 12 to 13 years before by Voldemort himself, propably around the time he gets yeast of the prophesy. Voldemort is obsessed with conquering Death, and he had some 50 years time to build saveguards of all kind, one of the first is the TR-diary. Another it the spell/potion used in Goblet of Fire. Malfoy Manor as one of his bases with a whole arsenal of artifacts stored is not that unlikely. In GoF Harry, the Enemy is crucial to the return of Voldemort. I think in CoS he was too, not for restoring Riddle/Voldemort to life, but for restoring him to full power. The power/lifeforce taken from Ginny would be not enough to give Voldemort the power he needed. After the first year at Hogwarts it is clear to Voldemort and the Malfoy what a potential cauldron of power Harry is. Playing the diary directly into Harry's hand would have been stupid Harry would have been very suspicious when something like that suddenly appeared between his useless collection of Lockhartbooks and he neither would have started writing his diary in in. He isn't the diary-type. As the one to play the diary into the victims hand Lucius is the ideal tool, he is a predator but a snake in method... snakes lay in wait before striking sensing the heat of their victims. And Ginny radiates as much heat as a lighthouse that day. I think Lucius didn't need much more of an order in the year before Voldemort fall as: " when such and such may happen, use the opertunity to strike, my slippery friend." It is even possible that Lucius kept the diary-Tom Riddle informed of what happened after the fall of Voldemort. I got the impression that diary-Tom Riddle knew about things that happened long after he made his diary. Some of that information is from Ginny of course, but is the scenario of Lucius Malfoy writing in the diary and getting direct instructions a strange one? In that case the action of Lucius is even more consieus and direct. Why else should he be visiting Knockturn Alley to sell " hot" goods at a day Diagon Alley is crowded with peopel buying schoolgear for their kids. I would have taken a more quiet day for showing up in that neighbourhood. Kamion53 From marc at jadebox.com Sat May 14 22:03:45 2005 From: marc at jadebox.com (Marc Harry) Date: Sat, 14 May 2005 23:03:45 +0100 Subject: predictions - I'll play! In-Reply-To: <1115898692.13148.51966.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <200505142201.j4EM0QH3001028@server1.rogersmithsoftware.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128928 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Ron > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Voldemort > 3. What is Lily's big secret? Something to do with Snape > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis... who is also the lion-guy and the new DADA teacher! > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione, I hope! I don't know why so many people seem to think they weren't made for each other! I've thought that since they met! > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Arthur Weasley!!! > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. The cover of the book gives this away - maybe NOT with Snape > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes - but also perhaps not with Snape > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 What else? We'll find out more about Mrs Norris - she wasn't always a cat Dobby will have a romance Harry will help educate younger pupils in some way Slytherin will win the house cup Voldemort will be WAY in front by the end of the book - 'good' will be almost certain to be defeated and book 7 will be astonishingly good! (further ahead - Dumbledore will die in book 7) Marc -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 13/05/2005 From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 15 02:54:56 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 02:54:56 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128929 Tonks wrote: > This whole thing about LM having Tom Riddles "old things" is quite a > mystery to me. It would seem that unlike all the > other DE'er including LM's very own sister-in-law, LM knows that LV > and TR are the same. Or does he? How can this be? Didn't the diary have Tom's name on it?? > Was LM LV's right hand man and that is how he got everything. And > even then how did he get these things and when? And how does LM > know what the diary will do? Has he tried to use it? Surely he > knows better than to do that if he doesn't know what it will do. Did > LV tell him? Why? Wouldn't LV not want anyone to know that he was > Tom? And Dobby must have overheard something more than just LM and > NM talking. There are just too many unanswered questions here. What did LM know or not know? > What did he expect to happen? And the second question would depend > on the answer to question 1. I don't think that we can really know > anything for sure. > > Let's look at the facts and questions: > 1. Ministry raids and ML must get rid of things that would > be "dangerous" to him if found. (I forgot if it would be because he > had items of "dark magic", or LV things. Why was the ministry > raiding when they did not think that LV was around?? Who initiated > the raids and why? ) > 2. Dobby knows something. We really don't know what he knows, how > he found it out and if he really came on his own. It seems that he > came on his own, but why would he do something so out of character > for a house elf? > 3. LM sells some items at Knockturn Alley. He still has the diary > when he meets the Weasley's at the bookstore. Now we do not really > know what LM planned to do with the diary. It could be that giving > it to Ginny was done on the spur of the moment out of anger. Maybe > he only intended to have an item of Dark Magic show up in the > Weasley home where Arthur would get in trouble. Maybe LM didn't know > it would end up at school. Maybe only Dobby knew, sort of a seer > himself. > > I just can't see a direct cause and effect here. Granted it has > been awhile since I read the 2nd. book. I did see the "other media" > last week, but I know that it doesn't always match the book. There > just seems to be some gapping holes in this whole "plot". Holes > that JKR hopes that we will fill in with the wrong information I am > sure. > > Again some part of the "plot" that we as a group have explored just > don't fit quite right with other information such as Bella not > knowing. Yes, she was in Askaban until book 5, but even so it still > seems strange. LM would have had to get the stuff just after LV > turned to vapor and when Bella went to prison and what?... figured > out that LV was Tom then? I just can't figure it all out. How > would LM have known what the diary would do? Just too many loose > ends here. ??????????? Carol responds: I've been asking myself some very similar questions. Clearly Lucius knew that the diary belonged to Tom Riddle (it did have his name on it), and I think that as a Slytherin at Hogwarts he would have learned about his house's most illustrious member, who had been Head Boy and had earned a special award for (ostensibly) freeing the school from a monster. It's quite possible, and I think quite probable, that he knew a lot more--that the real monster was a basilisk, that Tom Riddle was a Parselmouth who controlled it, and that Tom was the Heir of Slytherin who had taken on himself the duty of continuing Salazar Slytherin's "noble work" (ridding Hogwarts of Muggleborns). I think he knew that Tom's diary was full of Dark Magic and that it was the key to releasing the basilisk again. I also think he knew that Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort were one and the same. How could Malfoy know all this? My hypothesis is that Lucius Malfoy's father, who would have been about Tom Riddle's age and a Slytherin, was one of the close friends to whom Tom revealed his new name and his heritage as Heir of Slytherin. These friends would have known that Tom was releasing the basilisk, and being his devoted followers and believers in the pureblood ethic, would have approved of what he was doing. Later, before Tom disappeared to consort with "the worst of our kind" to learn the secrets of immortality, I think he left his diary (and possibly most of his worldly possessions except his wand) with his friend Malfoy, the future father of Lucius. I'm guessing that Malfoy Sr. was among the first to become a Death Eater after Voldemort returned and that he was one of the few who knew Voldemort's true identity (everything except Voldemort's status as a halfblood who had murdered his Muggle relatives at seventeen). Probably Malfoy Sr. revealed these secrets to young Lucius at some point, so when Malfoy Sr. was killed or died in Azkaban some time during Voldemort's eleven-year-reign of terror or soon afterwards (he doesn't seem to be alive at the time of CoS), Lucius had a good idea of what he was inheriting. Quite possibly he wrote in the diary as Harry did and was told how it could be used to open the Chamber of Secrets and release the monster to kill Muggleborns. (Even Draco knew that the Chamber had been opened fifty years before, and it was Lucius who told him.) Whether he also knew that it could be used to resurrect Voldemort in the form of a teenage boy is harder to determine. It would depend on how much Tom had told his Hogwarts friends and how much Diary!Tom confided to Lucius if he did indeed write in the diary. Why use the diary at the beginning of Harry's second year? Because the MoM is snooping around and Lucius has to get rid of his Dark artifacts--but this one he wants to use rather than sell. Voldemort is stirring in the WW and trying to make a comeback by possessing people: Why not aid him by striking a blow against his worst enemies, the old Muggle-lover and the Potter boy--and just possibly providing Voldemort with his own former self to house his seemingly immortal spirit? Anyway, I seriously doubt that Lucius's chief motive was to get the Weasleys into trouble; it was just a felicitous little coincidence that Ginny Weasley happened to be on hand to be the recipient of the diary. The scenes with Dobby and Draco strongly suggest that Lucius wanted to kill or injure Muggleborns. He almost certainly wanted to disgrace Dumbledore and engineer his removal. He also seems to have wanted to hurt Harry, though how that was possible if the basilisk killed only Muggleborns is hard to say. Maybe he thought that with Diary!Tom controlling the monster, it would change its target once Tom knew who Harry was and that he was in the school. And I don't rule out a desire on Lucius' part to bring Voldemort back to life as a teenage boy. If Vapormort were to possess his own teenage body, he would be twice as powerful as before, not to mention youthful and beautiful instead of snakelike--and indebted to his loyal servant, Lucius Malfoy for this glorious state of affairs. (So, *if* that's the case, why did Malfoy remain quiet in the graveyard about his attempt to restore Voldemort through the diary? Because his grand plan failed and instead of gratitude, he would have been the recipient of Voldemort's wrath for botching the job. You don't boast about your failures to a tyrant.) Again, all we know is that the diary had Tom Riddle's name on it; Lucius told Draco that the Chamber of Secrets had been opened fifty years earlier and that a Muggleborn died; Dobby knew that terrible things were about to happen at Hogwarts and knew or feared that Harry was in danger; Dobby also knew that Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort were the same person. Dobby's source of information was the Dark wizards (plural) who were his owners (i.e., Lucius and Narcissa); what he knew, they knew. How could Lucius know that Riddle was Voldemort and that he had opened the Chamber of Secrets fifty years ago, releasing the monster that killed the Muggleborns, and that the diary would set the whole process in motion again? From his DE father, Riddle's friend and the first keeper of the diary, and from the diary itself. Or that's what makes sense to me. Carol From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 15 03:21:27 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:21:27 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128930 > Tammy: > Another possible inadvertent hint is in the Luna-Snape question. I > found it interesting that she said "Snape does not have a daughter." > She didn't say Snape doesn't have kids, she said he doesn't have a > daughter. The conspiracy theorist in me says that it means he does > have a son (mmm... Harry? wait, she already said no to that one... > mmm... Neville! HAH! that's it!) Potioncat: This breaking news floored me! I mean, I know each and everyone of us has wondered about Snape and Luna....No, really, has anyone ever heard this rumor before? Is it something that's really been floating around somewhere else? As far as I'm concerned, JKR might as well have said "Snape doesn't own a white cat"! So, I do have to wonder, again, unless this is a big concern on other sites: why did she bring this up? And, does this mean, Snape does not now nor never did have a daughter? Or Snape has never been a father? Potioncat (the twins, of course, were always a joke, but I'm not giving up on SNAPE!SON yet) From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 15 03:24:20 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:24:20 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128931 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Lupin, but a Weasley (Bill or Charlie) will also die. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Felix Felicis, the lionlike character described on JKR's site, who is also the new DADA professor. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? She put a protective charm on baby Harry which could only be activated by her self-sacrifice. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis, as above. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Urgh. I hate SHIPping. Ginny, I guess. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Easy. A Pensieve (not Dumbledore's; his isn't cracked). > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. (From Snape, I hope!) > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. (Ditto.) > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Five: DADA, Potions, Charms, Herbology, and Transfiguration. Definitely not Divination, History of Magic, or Astronomy (because of the interruption). > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. > > 1. Harry will admit (at least to himself) that Snape is not responsible for Sirius's death. > 2. A hand on the Weasleys' clock will point to "Mortal Peril." > 3. Neville will overcome his childish fear of Snape as he comes to terms with his own past. > 4. Ron will become Quidditch captain--on his own merits. > 5. Hermione will work with Luna on a discovery related to Ancient Runes (and Lily Potter's protective charm). Carol From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sun May 15 03:32:48 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:32:48 -0000 Subject: Pick a son for Snape. Was: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128932 Potioncat: This breaking news floored me! I mean, I know each and everyone of us has wondered about Snape and Luna....No, really, has anyone ever heard this rumor before? Is it something that's really been floating around somewhere else? As far as I'm concerned, JKR might as well have said "Snape doesn't own a white cat"! So, I do have to wonder, again, unless this is a big concern on other sites: why did she bring this up? And, does this mean, Snape does not now nor never did have a daughter? Or Snape has never been a father? Potioncat (the twins, of course, were always a joke, but I'm not giving up on SNAPE!SON yet) Alla: Don't worry , you are not the only one who never heard this rumor before, and I also think that she brought it up for the reason . Unfortunately, I think that her saying "Snape does not have a daughter' can very much mean that Snape indeed has a son... or two. Maybe twins will turn out to be not a joke after all. :-) Seriously though ( sort of) let's examine possible candidates for having Snape as Daddy. Now, I do enjoy good story of Snape being Harry's father, but fortunately for me, we can exclude Harry as candidate, right? Hmmm, Ron has a red hair, so not much chance here either, unless Snape loved Lily indeed and Ron is a product of their love, who was then adopted by Weasleys.... Oh, does it mean that Ron is Harry's half-brother? Maybe Dear Draco was born because Snape had hot and steamy affair with Narcissa right under Lucius nose? :-) I guess Dark Haired boys are more likely possibility. I think I will vote for Victor Krum as Snape's son for now. :-) Alla, who realises the weirdness of this post of hers. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 15 03:34:24 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:34:24 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? > Five: DADA, Potions, Charms, Herbology, and Transfiguration. > Definitely not Divination, History of Magic, or Astronomy (because of > the interruption). Oops. Make that six: Add Care of Magical Creatures. (And I'm assuming that there's one OWL per course. If the practical and the written receive separate OWLs, the number would be close to twelve. I don't know if there's a written for COMC.) Carol From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun May 15 03:51:28 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:51:28 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: Snip: I think he knew that Tom's diary was full of Dark Magic and that it was the key to releasing the basilisk again. I also think he knew that Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort were one and the same. > > How could Malfoy know all this? My hypothesis is that Lucius Malfoy's father, who would have been about Tom Riddle's age and a Slytherin, was one of the close friends to whom Tom revealed his new name and his heritage as Heir of Slytherin. These friends would have known that Tom was releasing the basilisk, and being his devoted followers and believers in the pureblood ethic, would have approved of what he was doing. Later, before Tom disappeared to consort with "the worst of our kind" to learn the secrets of immortality, I think he left his diar (and possibly most of his worldly possessions except his wand) with his friend Malfoy, the future father of Lucius. Tonks: What you said all makes sense, except Tom was a half-blood. Are you saying that Lucius' father did not know that? And Lucius does not know that? And if Lucius and Narcisius both know that LV was Tom, and I thought that almost no one does, don't they know that he was a half-blood.. the very thing they detest? Because Bella doesn't know. So either Lucius doesn't know, and why wouldn't he because "Riddle" is not an old wizard family name. Something is not making sense. If Lucius knows, why doesn't Bella know. And if Lucius knows why would he ever follow someone who wasn't "pure". Yes I know of the idea that someone here suggested about the speach LV could give, but he didn't. Very few know that Tom and LV are the same. And I think even less know that Tom was a half-blood. But how could they not know? Riddle, come on that is not an old family name and all the pure bloods must know that. Explain that one, please. Thanks. Tonks From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun May 15 03:58:57 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:58:57 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > This breaking news floored me! I mean, I know each and everyone of us has wondered about Snape and Luna....No, really, has anyone ever > heard this rumor before? Is it something that's really been floating > around somewhere else? Tonks: Who is their right might would ever wonder if Snape was Luna's father? Or Harry's, or the squids for that matter. She is probably just playing with us and it means nothing. Nothing. Don't waste your time pondering it. She just wants to play. OR we read way to much into every little word the poor woman says. She can't even blow her nose that we don't find a clue in it somewhere!! OK, so Snape is the father of the Half-Blood prince. There you heard it from me. And if that is true I will have to what.... give up butterbeer for a year!! I am not worried. Barmaid another round please. Tonks_op From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 15 05:25:35 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 05:25:35 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128936 Carol earlier: > > I think he [Lucius] knew that Tom's diary was full of Dark Magic and that it was the key to releasing the basilisk again. I also think he knew that Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort were one and the same. > > > > How could Malfoy know all this? My hypothesis is that Lucius Malfoy's father, who would have been about Tom Riddle's age and a Slytherin, was one of the close friends to whom Tom revealed his new name and his heritage as Heir of Slytherin. These friends would have known that Tom was releasing the basilisk, and being his devoted followers and believers in the pureblood ethic, would have approved of what he was doing. Later, before Tom disappeared to consort with "the worst of our kind" to learn the secrets of immortality, I think he left his diary (and possibly most of his worldly possessions except his wand) with his friend Malfoy, the future father of Lucius. > > Tonks replied: > > What you said all makes sense, except Tom was a half-blood. Are you > saying that Lucius' father did not know that? And Lucius does not > know that? And if Lucius and Narcisius both know that LV was Tom, > and I thought that almost no one does, don't they know that he was a > half-blood.. the very thing they detest? Because Bella doesn't > know. So either Lucius doesn't know, and why wouldn't he > because "Riddle" is not an old wizard family name. Something is not > making sense. If Lucius knows, why doesn't Bella know. And if Lucius > knows why would he ever follow someone who wasn't "pure". Yes I know > of the idea that someone here suggested about the speach LV could > give, but he didn't. Very few know that Tom and LV are the same. And > I think even less know that Tom was a half-blood. But how could they > not know? Riddle, come on that is not an old family name and all > the pure bloods must know that. Explain that one, please. Thanks. Carol takes a stab at it: A lot of pureblood wizards have ordinary, Muggle-sounding names: Potter, Black, and Weasley, for example. It's not all Malfoy, Lestrange, and Ollivander. Also, the Riddle family is from the north of England, so they could be an obscure branch of purebloods with few connections to the better-known families centered in London and its environs. Little Tom would have kept his mouth shut about his origins until he found out about Grandfather Marvolo and the Slytherin connection, and then he would have played that up, never mentioning the other side of the family. Also the anti-Muggleborn bias doesn't seem to extend to half-bloods, at least to the same degree. Maybe the fact that he was the Heir of Slytherin (proven by his ability to speak Parseltongue and command the basilisk) made up for his having the blood of his hated Muggle father in Malfoy Sr.'s eyes. And Malfoy Sr. could easily have concealed what he knew about Riddle being a half-blood from his son Lucius and everyone else out of sheer devotion to Riddle/Voldemort. We do know that only a few people recognized Voldemort as the handsome, charming boy he had once been. In my view, those few were his devoted friends at Hogwarts, the first DE recruits, for whom his exceptional powers and the Salazar Slytherin connection more than made up for his having a Muggle father (if they knew about his father at all). Carol From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Sun May 15 05:39:03 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 05:39:03 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" > wrote: > > Potioncat: > > This breaking news floored me! I mean, I know each and everyone of > us has wondered about Snape and Luna....No, really, has anyone ever > > heard this rumor before? Is it something that's really been > floating > > around somewhere else? > > Tonks: > Who is their right might would ever wonder if Snape was Luna's > father? Or Harry's, or the squids for that matter. She is probably > just playing with us and it means nothing. Nothing. Don't waste your > time pondering it. She just wants to play. OR we read way to much > into every little word the poor woman says. She can't even blow her > nose that we don't find a clue in it somewhere!! > > OK, so Snape is the father of the Half-Blood prince. There you heard > it from me. And if that is true I will have to what.... give up > butterbeer for a year!! I am not worried. Barmaid another round > please. > > Tonks_op Barmaid now: Are you buying?? Round for the house then! Don't worry, if you do have to give up butterbeer for a year there is always firewhiskey! She is most likely playing with us, I agree, but I do sort of like the idea that there is a Snapelet somewhere. I like the kinds of theories that include Snape's family having something to do with Snape's return to the fold. (oh and I do think he has really returned to the fold.... he just has a very damaged heart and can't quiet get to "good" yet.) ---Barmaid From buffyeton at yahoo.com Sun May 15 06:17:01 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 06:17:01 -0000 Subject: Socks in Order of the Phoenix? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128938 Much is made about the mention of socks in the first 4 books, are there any mentions of them in the Order of the Phoenix? Tamara From buffyeton at yahoo.com Sun May 15 06:19:39 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 06:19:39 -0000 Subject: Lawyers in the Wizard world? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128939 Are there lawyers in the wizard world? Harry goes to his "trial" without any representation, no one seems to be around to represent Hagrid when he is sent off to Azkaban, or Buckbeat at his trial. Tamara From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 15 06:46:35 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 06:46:35 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kamion53" wrote: Kamion53: > It is even possible that Lucius kept the diary-Tom Riddle informed > of what happened after the fall of Voldemort. I got the impression > that diary-Tom Riddle knew about things that happened long after he > made his diary. Some of that information is from Ginny of course, > but is the scenario of Lucius Malfoy writing in the diary and > getting direct instructions a strange one? Geoff: I get an impression that this didn't happen and that Riddle got his information fairly late.... '"And why did you want to meet me?" said Harry. Anger was coursing through him and it was an effort to keep his voice steady. "well, you see, Ginny told me all about, Harry" said Riddle. "Your whole fascinating history." His eyes roved over the lightning scar on Harry's forehead and his expression grew hungrier. "I knew I must find out more about you, talk to you, meet you if I could.."' (COS "The Heir of Slytherin" p.229 UK edition) Tom always refers to gaining information from Ginny, never from Malfoy. My feel for this is that, if Lucius had given him facts earlier, events would have moved more rapidly. One interesting question is: Why was Malfoy carrying the diary on that day in Diagon Alley when he met the Weasleys? Did he just carry it around on the off-chance? From sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 15 09:07:02 2005 From: sandra87b at yahoo.co.uk (Sandra Collins) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:07:02 -0000 Subject: Lawyers in the Wizard world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Are there lawyers in the wizard world? Harry goes to his "trial" > without any representation, no one seems to be around to represent > Hagrid when he is sent off to Azkaban, or Buckbeat at his trial. > > Tamara Hi Tamara, This is another of those 'overlooked' areas of JKR's Potterworld. I think she's trying to create a blend of medieval and modern, but if you ask me, that just falls over. You can't un-invent human rights, so in a society as potentially wild and dangerous as one which harnesses magic, those rights are even more important... I'd have thought. I tried airing a few questions about some less-developed areas of the wizard world which had occurred to me, and got a few unpleasant personal emails in return, so I haven' been here for a while. Sandra (an occasional spectator, now) From patientx3 at aol.com Sun May 15 09:33:58 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:33:58 -0000 Subject: Number of DEs in Graveyard (was Re: Voldemort's recruitment . ..) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128942 a_svirn: >>So who were those whom he passed in silence? We don't know and it is not out of the range of possibility that they were the missing "older" wizards. Moreover it would make sense for LV who is nothing after all, if not practical to put at risk those DE who had already been compromised. Remember Fudge reaction to Hurry's revelations in the hospital wing? He said: "You are merely repeating the names of those who were acquitted of being Death Eaters thirteen years ago!" said Fudge angrily. "You could have found those names in old reports of the trials! "<< Rebecca: That's been mentioned before as a possibility (that he didn't mention the "secret" DEs in case Harry somehow got away). In fact, I think there was a theory once that the *whole thing* was a farce and he intended for Harry to get away, or at least the Harry getting away thing was some sort of backup plan, which is why the trophy brought him back to Hogwarts (ack, I really don't remember the better details of this theory, nor when I read it, does anyone else recall it?). The whole graveyard scene is rather tricky. Its extremely curious that we didn't get any names that weren't mentioned earlier, or rather easy to guess (other than Nott, I guess, but we don't know who he is other than he has a son at Hogwarts). It might be that so many names were dropped earlier in GoF, that JKR didn't feel it necessary to name any more, but I doubt it. But this still, IMO, doesn't solve the riddle of the "older death eaters". The older ones would be the ones Voldemort has known the longest, and therefore would be more personally connected to. So why wouldn't he speak to them? He bothers to speak to Crabbe and Goyle after all, and they can't possibly be very important. I think the only theory that really works here is the coup d'?ta one, since it makes the most sense that the older DEs are dead and have been dead for some time. -Rebecca From chspnll at aanet.com.au Sun May 15 09:47:14 2005 From: chspnll at aanet.com.au (saieditor) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:47:14 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128943 I have this hunch that Kreacher is no longer at Grimmauld Place, and is now in service of Narcissa Malfoy, who is - the nearest (?) living relative of Black family, and - has no house elf saieditor --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > Constance Vigilance: > > > > > Kindness and generosity are powerful things in the House Elf > world. We > > do not know how similar Kreachur might be to Dobby. But I do think > > that Hermione's kindness and generosity will rebound in a good way > > with Kreachur. > > > > a_svirn: > > Not likely, I am afraid. If we hate and despise someone we don't > react in a positive way to their displays of kindness and > generosity. In fact we would much rather prefer if they weren't kind > and generous. It would only condemn them further in our eyes adding > hypocrisy to the list of their sins. (And in case of Hermione- > Kreacher dynamics he wouldn't be that far off thinking her a > hypocrite). > > > > Constance Vigilance: > > > I think Kreachur can be turned > > with kindness. The Headmaster has sort of said that when he kept > > telling Sirius to treat Kreachur with kindness. > > > > a_svirn: > I believe he sort of said that Kreacher could prove to be a problem. > And so he did. > > a_svirn From patientx3 at aol.com Sun May 15 09:57:38 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 09:57:38 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128944 Potioncat: >>This breaking news floored me! I mean, I know each and everyone of us has wondered about Snape and Luna....No, really, has anyone ever heard this rumor before? Is it something that's really been floating around somewhere else? As far as I'm concerned, JKR might as well have said "Snape doesn't own a white cat"! So, I do have to wonder, again, unless this is a big concern on other sites: why did she bring this up? And, does this mean, Snape does not now nor never did have a daughter? Or Snape has never been a father? Potioncat (the twins, of course, were always a joke, but I'm not giving up on SNAPE!SON yet)<< Rebecca: I found that very odd as well, who on earth would think that Luna could be Snape's daughter? That would be *quite* the conspiracy. Its most likely nothing, but I got rather stuck on the wording of "Snape does not have a *daughter*." (emphasis mine). Is she trying to give us a clue, but hiding it in the middle of a false rumor? (or maybe the rumor is real, does anyone go to the forums at Leaky or Mugglenet? Was there a Snape/Luna theory?). Before he was confirmed to be Nott, I would vote for the stringy Slytherin kid who could see thestrals as Snape's son. But that's out now. Hmm, there's always the theory that he's the teacher who has a family (she alluded to the possibility that one or more of the teachers is married at one point during at interview), and that the hook-nosed man yelling at a woman in his memories is *him* and the child is his child. My favorite theory for why Snape left Voldemort is the death of his family...perhaps he has a dead son. -Rebecca From buffyeton at yahoo.com Sun May 15 10:01:36 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 10:01:36 -0000 Subject: Lawyers in the Wizard world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sandra Collins" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" > wrote: > > Are there lawyers in the wizard world? Harry goes to his "trial" > > without any representation, no one seems to be around to > represent > > Hagrid when he is sent off to Azkaban, or Buckbeat at his trial. > > > > Tamara > > Hi Tamara, > This is another of those 'overlooked' areas of JKR's Potterworld. I > think she's trying to create a blend of medieval and modern, but if > you ask me, that just falls over. You can't un-invent human rights, > so in a society as potentially wild and dangerous as one which > harnesses magic, those rights are even more important... I'd > have thought. I tried airing a few questions about some > less-developed areas of the wizard world which had occurred to > me, and got a few unpleasant personal emails in return, so I > haven' been here for a while. > > Sandra (an occasional spectator, now) Sandra, sorry to see that you're sitting it out, though I can understand why. I'm also sorry that the idea of lawyers hasn't been seriously breached, as it would be a perfect career for Hermione to go into I think. She did all the research for Buckbeat's trial, and her work with S.P.E.W. shows she obviously cares a lot for those who don't have someone on their side. Maybe she, being muggle born and obviously knowing there is such a job, will pursue it or set up her own law firm. Tamara From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Sun May 15 11:53:25 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:53:25 -0000 Subject: Pick a son for Snape. Was: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128946 > > Alla: > > Don't worry , you are not the only one who never heard this rumor > before, and I also think that she brought it up for the reason . > > Unfortunately, I think that her saying "Snape does not have a > daughter' can very much mean that Snape indeed has a son... or two. > > Maybe twins will turn out to be not a joke after all. :-) > > Seriously though ( sort of) let's examine possible candidates for > having Snape as Daddy. > > Now, I do enjoy good story of Snape being Harry's father, but > fortunately for me, we can exclude Harry as candidate, right? > > Hmmm, Ron has a red hair, so not much chance here either, unless > Snape loved Lily indeed and Ron is a product of their love, who was > then adopted by Weasleys.... Oh, does it mean that Ron is Harry's > half-brother? > > Maybe Dear Draco was born because Snape had hot and steamy affair > with Narcissa right under Lucius nose? :-) > > I guess Dark Haired boys are more likely possibility. > > I think I will vote for Victor Krum as Snape's son for now. :-) > > Alla, > > who realises the weirdness of this post of hers. Tammy: my nomination for Snape's son (and yes, I had tons of fun contemplating this subject even though JKR is probably just playing with us): Montague, the Slytherin who tried to take points from Fred and George and got stuffed into that disappearing closet thingy. Since he's the son of a teacher, he'd go by his mother's name probably. I can't imagine Snape having a son in any house but Slytherin - not even Neville. If JKR would toss a son out for Snape I think it would be one of the lesser mentioned names, tossed out once or twice. But then again, I really like the idea of Victor being Snape's son - can't you just picture Snape finding out that Victor had a thing for little-miss-know-it-all? Tammy, who loves weirdness and will cling to the idea that Snape has a son like it's a donut during a famine From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun May 15 12:13:01 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:13:01 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128947 Potioncat: >>> I mean, I know each and everyone of us has wondered about Snape and Luna....No, really, has anyone ever heard this rumor before?<<< Tonks: >> Who is their right might would ever wonder if Snape was Luna's father? Or Harry's, or the squids for that matter. << Barmaid: > She is most likely playing with us, I agree, but I do sort of like > the idea that there is a Snapelet somewhere. I like the kinds of > theories that include Snape's family having something to do with > Snape's return to the fold. (oh and I do think he has really > returned to the fold.... he just has a very damaged heart and > can't quiet get to "good" yet.) SSSusan: Nope, I'd not heard the Luna is Snape's daughter theory, at least not put forth seriously. Going along with Barmaid, one theory about Papa Snape I have heard is Kneasy's. Admittedly, the gender of the child would have no bearing on matters, but still.... It's that Snape was indeed married, perhaps to Florence, and had a child. At some point, Voldemort killed or had them killed, and this is the reason Snape turned away from Voldemort. Siriusly Snapey Susan From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 15 12:13:36 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:13:36 -0000 Subject: Pick a son for Snape. Was: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128948 > Tammy: > my nomination for Snape's son (and yes, I had tons of fun > contemplating this subject even though JKR is probably just playing > with us): > Montague, the Slytherin who tried to take points from Fred and George > and got stuffed into that disappearing closet thingy. snip > But then again, I really like the idea of Victor being Snape's son - > can't you just picture Snape finding out that Victor had a thing for > little-miss-know-it-all? Potioncat: Hermione sees Montague's parents coming to Hogwarts to visit him. And we're told Viktor looks just like his father. I don't think there will be a situation where someone discovers a big secret...a "Dad really isn't your Dad, your real father is Professor Snape." sort of discussion. IMHO that type of twist just doesn't fit the HP series. It could well be that Snape had a son or even has a son, and I'll even agree that possibly the son doesn't use the name Snape...though that would be hard to believe. No, more likely Harry's just never met the very clever Ravenclaw students: Silas and Sebastian Snape. From hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 15 12:27:00 2005 From: hannahmarder at yahoo.co.uk (Hannah) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:27:00 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128949 Hannah: Weighing in late as usual, but better that than never! > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hannah: Dumbledore. I also reckon that at least one Weasley, probably Arthur, will come a cropper. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) Hannah: I think it will be not a person, but a potion. I didn't come up with that theory myself, but I do like it. Maybe deserves partial credit only. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Hannah: That she was friends (platonic) with Snape at some point in the past, or has some sort of link with him, possibly via a friend that was related to him or married him. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Hannah: A new character, probably Felix Felicitas. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hannah: A minor female character - I rather like the idea of it being Katie Bell. It won't be anything serious, just a couple of kisses. No true love or any such goo (I hope). > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Hannah: Amelia Bones. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Hannah: A Pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Hannah: Yes, and it will be in the NEWT class with Snape teaching. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Hannah: No. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Hannah: Nine. He will pass them all, and get an O for Potions and DADA, and probably for some other subjects as well. Subjects will NOT be divided into separate OWLs for practical and theory. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1. We will find out that Snape was brought up as a pureblood, but later discovered he is a half-blood. This may or may not have influenced his decision to switch sides. > 2. Luna and her father will have found a Crumple-Horned Snorkack, and it will have some part to play in the plot. > 3. Harry will leave the Dursleys' just before his birthday, in order to have a party at the Burrow. > 4. Lupin will take a much more central role as a mentor in Harry's life, helping him get over Sirius' death. > 5. Narcissa Malfoy will have a larger role as one of the principal bad guys. She will be a fully paid up and marked Death Eater, and a force to be reckoned with. Hannah From jlnbtr at yahoo.com Sun May 15 03:56:33 2005 From: jlnbtr at yahoo.com (jlnbtr) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:56:33 -0000 Subject: Snape has a SON??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128950 OK, so I've been away for a few months now, truth be told, I'm kinda getting tired of hearing the same discussions over and over again. Anyway, I was just checking out the updates on JKR's website, and under the Rumors section I found this: "Luna is Snape's daughter This is a most tantalising idea, but no, Mr. Lovegood, the editor of 'the Quibbler', really is Luna's father and Snape does not have a daughter." Maybe I'm reading a bit to much into this, but does it mean that Snape has a son? I mean, if he doesn't have any children, shouldn't Jo hace said "Snape does not have CHILDREN"? I'm beginning to wonder who this son may be... Juli From wherr009 at umn.edu Sun May 15 04:36:25 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 04:36:25 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > What you said all makes sense, except Tom was a half-blood. Are you > saying that Lucius' father did not know that? And Lucius does not > know that? And if Lucius and Narcisius both know that LV was Tom, > and I thought that almost no one does, don't they know that he was a > half-blood.. the very thing they detest? Because Bella doesn't > know. So either Lucius doesn't know, and why wouldn't he > because "Riddle" is not an old wizard family name. Something is not > making sense. If Lucius knows, why doesn't Bella know. And if Lucius > knows why would he ever follow someone who wasn't "pure". Yes I know > of the idea that someone here suggested about the speach LV could > give, but he didn't. Very few know that Tom and LV are the same. And > I think even less know that Tom was a half-blood. But how could they > not know? Riddle, come on that is not an old family name and all > the pure bloods must know that. Explain that one, please. Thanks. > > Tonks wherritt009 here My response to this is what if they did know that LV was not a pureblood but, followed him because of what he wanted to accomplish and not because of who he was. This idea could be akin to the Nazi's during WWII. Hitler said that the only people that should be alive are blonde hair blue eyed people, but Hitler himself was not blonde haired or blue eyed. Even though he wasn't the Nazi's still followed him. Voldemort's hatred of muggle borns and his being the "most powerful evil wizard in a hundred years" could have also have made people like Lucius follow him even though they knew about his past. This is all just my opinion, but it makes sense to me. wherr009 From eileen_nicholson at yahoo.com Sun May 15 09:51:10 2005 From: eileen_nicholson at yahoo.com (Eileen Nicholson) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 02:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eileen's HBP Predictions Message-ID: <20050515095110.2354.qmail@web60215.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128952 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? DD, at the end of book 6 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Griffindor 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She can control people's actions using her eyes alone, although it is more powerful if she uses a wand too - in 'Snape's Worst Memory' she makes James drop Severus when her 'furious expression ....twitched for an instant', and ends the spell after Snape calls her a mudblood, by blinking. I don't think this is clear until book 7, but we find out more about it in book 6 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Moody. If DD could have found anyone else at the end of Year 4, he would have deprived Fudge of the opportunity of lending Umbridge... 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny, eventually. Foreshadowed when he went past Cerberfluffy into the Underworld to rescue her. But it won't be close or a source of comfort - he'll be too afraid of what would happen to anyone who gets caught up in his relationship with VM. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I'd love it to be Amelia Bones, but I think it'll be Amos Diggory. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's pensieve 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Now he knows about the prophecy, he'll start taking Auror training seriously 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes...he has a reputation for outstanding courage against impossible odds 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1.DD starts teaching Harry in Book 6 2.Peter Pettigrew will still be standing at the end of book 6, but gets zapped in Book 7 when he does something that gives Harry an advantage - but he doesn't do it voluntarily... 3.Fawkes comes to Harry after DD dies 4.Ron and Hermione get together, and give us all some comic relief 5.Sirius' motorcycle comes out of storage and gets an encore. It has got very friendly with the Weasley car. 6.Arthur Weasley gets killed in book 6. Jo has acquired a habit of saving her characters from certain death until her audience starts to relax, and then suddenly killing them off. One of the Weasleys has to go, and it can't be Molly as there would be no-one left to play the big maternal emotional drama scenes, which will continue to feature through book 7. Arthur's death brings Fred and George into the Order. 8.In book 6 Harry aims to go after Bella, and gets to do so big time in book 7, where he eventually beats her. 9.Something happens in book 6 to merge Harry and Voldy still further, so they are separate people to a lesser extent than they are now. 10. Harry gets through all 7 books without killing anyone 11. Jo doesn't finish writing book 7 until her fourth child starts school. I may have to come to some arrangement with Voldy to be sure I'm still around to find out how it all ends... Eileen First post.... --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From caseyhrobinson at sbcglobal.net Sun May 15 11:42:24 2005 From: caseyhrobinson at sbcglobal.net (Casey Robinson) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 04:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: <1116072695.21481.40855.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050515114224.35641.qmail@web81504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128953 In response to the constant question of whether or not Lucius knew of the connection to Voldy, there is no answer. However, after the fact, he knew of the connection, as Voldermorts connection was brought up durring the discussion after Harry saved Ginny from the Bassilisk. Casey From hansandrea1 at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 15 12:43:50 2005 From: hansandrea1 at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Hans=20Andr=E9a?=) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:43:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Predictions & PS on Sirius Message-ID: <20050515124350.15426.qmail@web26110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128954 I must congratulate Tigerpatronus on her prediction challenge. The participation has been great and it's a lot of fun for everyone. Catkind asked me why I didn't participate in this if I could see the pattern of Harry Potter so clearly. The point is that the basic pattern of the story is like the foundation of a house. This is normally not visible but is extremely important and determines everything else about the house. Harry Potter is an abnormally large castle with hundreds of rooms, passages, towers etc. Let's say it's Hogwarts. The foundation is what I'm talking about when I say I recognise Harry Potter as the process of Liberation. I genuinely and sincerely believe the foundation has been laid by the Masters of Compassion as an impulse to drive the pattern of the process of liberation into the human unconscious once again. I've been saying repeatedly that Harry Potter is not fiction. Well, that's an exaggeration to drive home a point. The foundations are not fiction, but Jo has certainly used her imagination to build the castle. She has no choice over where the walls go, but she can decorate and colour them as she pleases and add her own furniture. Just as an aside I want to add that Jo says very clearly she was inspired in June 1990 on that famous train journey (when, by a strange coincidence I was in England on a holiday). That's her own word: "inspired". Knowing the foundations I can tell you where the various passages and stairs go, where various rooms, towers etc. are. However I have no way of knowing what sort of furniture is in the rooms or what colours they are, what hangs on the walls etc. To get back to the plot of Harry Potter, I can see the main outlines of the events as they will happen in book 7. However I can't tell you the exact order they will happen. I can see the process of liberation, but Jo is not presenting it in the order it happens. She is really telling the story over and over again in different ways. The moment when Harry gives the sock to Dobby via Lucius symbolises the moment when the etheric body is detached from the physical body. This means total liberation from death and illness. However that's in Part 2, and all this will be repeated in book 7, I'm sure, but on a grand scale with all the characters participating. Similarly the five initiations are not in the actual order. Liberation is actually followed immediately by the birth of the Mercury consciousness (Hermione). Then comes Venus (Love), after which comes Mars (defeating Voldemort with will-power), and then Jupiter (Dumbledore's Army) followed by Saturn. If we were to put things in the right order a lot of the things would happen after book 7. It's the same with Neville Longbottom (See my post on Neville). In real life the seeker is born first, then the soul many years later. But in Harry Potter it's the other way around, seen in chronological order. First Harry and Neville are born one day apart, and then eleven years later Neville causes Harry to be made Seeker. It doesn't matter in the least. Jo is getting the point across. She is telling us the story of liberation by jumping back and forth. It's as if she's like the Buddha who used to have discussions with his pupils about the Path. Some one would ask him a question and he would discuss that. One day it would be about the end, another day about the beginning of the Path. The point I'm trying to make is that although you may know the whole Path in and out, and backwards and forwards, you're still not going to know what the Buddha is going to talk about tomorrow, do you? The one thing that is in the right order in Harry Potter is the ascent through the floors of the Tower of Olympus as told in The Alchemical Wedding. Part 6 will definitely show Harry's emotional ego being liberated, and all things point to this being connected to the Room of Love, because both those things are in the heart. So is Percy, and I therefore suspect, though I can't be sure, that he will be involved. Lily could also be involved. That's about all I can say about book 6. I do like Tiger's competition, and I think it's a lot of fun, but how can I possibly guess who will be the next minister of Magic? Or how many owls Harry will get? No one knows that except Jo, as they're decorations on the walls of Hogwarts and not part of the layout of the foundations. I hope Catkind understands my point of view. Anyway I do like predicting, so I'm going to make a list of the characters and what I think will happen to them. Voldemort: bad future. Will finally vanish like a puff of smoke in book 7. Jo likes to over dramatise things, so it may be quite a mind-blowing event, but ultimately that's what happens to the old microcosmic self when the soul is liberated. I guess it'll be something like Quirrell in the film. You all know how he sort of turned to dust and crumbled away. Pettigrew: bad future. The ego just dissipates like its creator. Peter will crumble away like Voldemort. What the life debt he owes Harry means I don't really know. It probably means he will make things easier for Harry when Voldemort makes his final attack on Harry. Harry: An extremely bright future. I guess he'll suffer a lot in book 6 and in the beginning of book 7. Jo probably makes him suffer so much to make his victory and liberation at the end all the more bright and glorious. I'm totally confident Harry will end up being serenely rapturous. He will pass through the Gate of Saturn, but won't die. Every Bodhisattva is given the choice of passing on or staying behind to serve as gatekeeper for humanity. Jo has made Harry an extremely compassionate and loving person and I'm 90% sure he'll choose to take Hagrid's job. His choice may be "forced" on him by some form of punishment, like Christian Rosycross, who was punished for seeing "Love" in the Room of Love in The Alchemical Wedding. However, his sacrifice will be compensated by the satisfaction of knowing that he's really helping humanity. Just as Christian Rosycross came "home", so will Harry, possibly by feeling Sirius' presence. Ron: A very bright future indeed. However as the earthly personality he will have to die first, to be resurrected as part of the liberated human being. He will also be united with Hermione and Harry for ever. As the spleen chakra he will be one of Harry's team of helpers. Hermione: An extremely wonderful future. She too will have to die and be resurrected, but her position as part of the Royal Couple is assured. Hagrid: A glorious future. He will finally be able to leave his position as gate-keeper, and so pass on to a more elevated position as an advanced Bodhisattva. To such a person physical death means absolutely nothing. That's just throwing off an old cloak. (A moleskin cloak?) Valky: a wonderful future. Will pass her exams and watch her partner play his best footy match ever. Draco: poor lad. He will be replaced by Harry. I don't know exactly how Jo will symbolise that, but Draco will either die or bow to Harry to serve him. In reality the old serpent-fire just disappears and the new one enters the spinal cord in a mini-second, but Jo likes to dramatise things a bit. Crabbe and Goyle: Will have to help Harry defeat Draco. In Part 2 this was symbolised as Harry and Ron giving them sleeping draught and taking on their bodies. How Part 7 will do this I can't be sure. Neville Longbottom (medulla oblongata): A wonderful task lies ahead for him as the gatekeeper to the heart-sanctuary. It is he who will have the privilege of opening the gate of the heart to the Holy Spirit who will perform the Alchemical Wedding, and the resurrection, of the Trio. The Weasleys: all have an extremely bright and wonderful future. They will all help Harry achieve liberation. Percy especially will see his ambitions go up in smoke and will realise his folly. In the end he will help Harry. As the heart chakra he will possibly be connected somehow to the Holy Grail and to a magic shield. Charlie will possibly be connected to a magic word or sword. Bill as the pineal chakra will be Harry's Crown. Lucius: as the physical brain he will survive, but as the I-consciousness he will be replaced by the Mercury consciousness. How Jo will symbolise that I don't know. Narcissa will also end up serving Harry. Snape & Lupin: not a bright future, but they will be happy to sacrifice themselves for the trio's alchemical wedding. Their death will be final though. Sirius: Will stay in "heaven" but will help Harry. As the personification of the Divine Plan for the reborn human being he will continue as guide, mentor and God-Father. Dumbledore: Will conduct the Alchemical Wedding at the end. McGonagall: Will continue to help Dumbledore and assist in the Alchemical Wedding. Argus Filch: As the personification of the "eyes" of the person going the Path, he will have the experience of the travellers to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-31), whose eyes were opened when they saw Jesus break the bread. Argus will finally "see" Harry or the resurrected trio for what he/it is, and for the first time in his life become magical. (Perhaps this is also like Paul on the road to Damascus.) Dobby: A brilliant future. I see him as the liberated etheric body of the alchemist. He will therefore be of great assistance to Harry at the end and will possibly do extremely wonderful and brave deeds. He will possibly be dressed in gold clothes, or some extremely valuable costume, symbolising the radiant "golden wedding vesture" of the candidate for the Alchemical Wedding. Luna Lovegood: If she symbolises "faith" she will be accompanied in book 6 by "hope" (the lion bloke?), and by "Love" in book 7. Be careful though! The lion bloke could also be "the lion-faced power", i.e. false love, which puts on a sweet face but is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Grawp: As the personification of that part of humanity susceptible to the teachings of liberation he will possibly become a little more civilised, possibly going to "school". In view of Tiger's success in inviting people to make predictions, may I do the same? Hans PS I'd just like to refer back to something Geoff said ages ago (well, months actually). I have repeatedly stated that Sirius' friends' names are significant. I'm referring to JAMES Potter, PETER Pettigrew and Remus JOHN Lupin. I've pointed out that the TRANSFIGURATION (know that word?) of Jesus on the mount was watched by James, Peter and John. Geoff said that those three are the most common names in England, and that it was all coincidence. I'd like to take this up again. Yes, I agree they probably are the most common names. It just so happens that I was a teacher in the years Sirius and his friends went to school. Certainly in every class there were boys with those names, but I remember just as many Scotts, Terrys, Patricks, Geoffs, Robins, Christophers, Gregs, Michaels, Adams, Ians etc. Let's do some statistics and probability. In a class of 40 boys, let's really exaggerate and say the 10% of boys at the time of the Marauders were called Peter, 10% John and 10% James (or Jim). That would actually be a very rare occurrence, because in my experience there would never have been 4 Peters, 4 Johns and 4 James's in a class of 40 boys ( I myself was in a class of 54 boys for a number of years); 2 of each at the most. But to prove my point let's take 10% each. In mathematical terms, the probability of one person having three friends with those three names would be One in 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000. That's the maximum! It's more likely to be 20 x 20 x 20 = 6000. So to say that it's a coincidence that Sirius' friends happened to be the same as Jesus' 3 top disciples is possible, but the chances are one in thousands. In fact I think it's underestimating Jo's intelligence to say a thing like that. Everything she does is so obviously deliberate, so calculated (in the kindest meaning of the word) and so intelligently put together, that I think this whole thing is no coincidence at all, but deliberate. Jo is nailing her flag to the mast. This is the same sort of thing as saying "Christian Rosycross" doesn't prove the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross is Christian, which I discussed in my last post. I think the problem is that Sirius doesn't look and act like a Christ figure, and so we dismiss the evidence. It's the same with Hagrid. I've repeatedly said Hagrid is a Bodhisattva, a divine messenger (who brings fire to the giants, just like Prometheus), but people won't accept this because he's big and oafish and gets drunk. Well I think Jo is doing this on purpose. I think she's deliberately attacking our prejudices about what a divine messenger, be it Sirius or Hagrid, acts and looks like. I sincerely hope there are some people who have open minds about what Jo is really saying to humanity. PPS Dear Catlady (Rita Price-Winston), I did not predict Harry would be wounded in the hand in Part 5. That must have been someone else. But thanks for your support. I WAS right about the other things, though (Dumbledore's Army, the arch with the veil, the Room of Love, and driving Voldemort from Harry's mind). PPPs Catlady, Catkind, Tigerpatronus - what is this! Help, I'm surrounded by felines. "If I talk too freely about whether I believe in God I think the intelligent reader, whether 10 or 60, will be able to guess what's coming in the books." JK Rowling ------------------------------------------- See you at http://www.harrypotterforseekers.com Hans Andr?a --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger - want a free & easy way to contact your friends online? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Sun May 15 15:21:21 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 15:21:21 -0000 Subject: Snape has a SON??? Theory Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128955 "jlnbtr" wrote: > > Maybe I'm reading a bit to much into this, but does it mean that Snape > has a son? I mean, if he doesn't have any children, shouldn't Jo hace > said "Snape does not have CHILDREN"? I'm beginning to wonder who this > son may be... > > Juli KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I read some other posts in here about this, I think someone gave the theory that his son is the Half Blood Prince, sorry I didn't pay attention to who said it. I think this is an interesting theory. I also agree that it seems strange to just say daughter, but we could all just be putting to much into it and she could just be playing with us. So, it could be viewed a few different ways: 1. He has a son, or..(haha) twins, we just dont' see the family..basicly. 2. JKR is keeping us guessing and says daughter just so we will continue to think Snape has a son. 3. He had a son, but she can't say he doesn't have children because as some have suggested he had a family but they are dead. So, he still had a son..etc. But he is dead. 4. His son is someone already at Hogwarts. Maybe Snape and his wife are divored LOL. or He doesn't want anyone to know because Voldemort would know and off his family..so they are in hiding. Can you say witness protection program. 5. His son has just turned 11 and will be attending Hogwarts as a new student in Book 6, that would reasonably give the theory someone posted about his son being the Half Blood Prince. So, instead of Snape being a prince, maybe he hooked up with a Princess somewhere...haha. Can you say Snape=Shrek? LOL 5. Ok, so what if he has a Son and he doesn't even know about it..DOH. 6. Add your own theory here. Karen From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Sun May 15 17:00:13 2005 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:00:13 -0000 Subject: Hans' insights (Was: Predictions & PS on Sirius) In-Reply-To: <20050515124350.15426.qmail@web26110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote more than my mind could handle. Wow. It's going to take me awhile to translate all of that into something my feeble brain can understand (if ever, as I am obviously not as well read). Still one thing came through that I agree with... ____________________________________________________________________ Hans says about Hagrid: > Hagrid: A glorious future. He will finally be able to leave his position as gate-keeper, and so pass on to a more elevated position as an advanced Bodhisattva. To such a person physical death means absolutely nothing. That's just throwing off an old cloak to a magic shield. I've repeatedly said Hagrid is a Bodhisattva, a divine messenger (who brings fire to the giants, just like Prometheus), but people won't accept this because he's big and oafish and gets drunk. Well I think Jo is doing this on purpose. I think she's deliberately attacking our prejudices about what a divine messenger, be it Sirius or Hagrid, acts and looks like. __________________________________________________________________ Kathy: I agree in a much simpler way. Before Hagrid, Harry accepted his role in life. Nothing was ever going to change. He was abused and either accepted it, or ran from it. Enter Hagrid. Harry watches as this giant of a man out bullies the biggest bully of all - Uncle Vernon. He sees these two men having a war of words before him and recognizes Vernon as the brute, and Hagrid as the defender. No one will say things about the people Hagrid cares for and get away with it. Top it all off with leaving the little bully a present on his rear. Hagrid is Harry's role model...not Dumbledore. Soon after this incident we witness Harry standing up for someone - Ron - who he sees as someone like himself. All the 'hero' stuff that Harry has been blamed for actually comes from the first person he saw stand up for someone who couldn't stand up for himself...Hagrid. There is no hugging of Dumbledore. When Harry needs to share or vent, he goes to Hagrid. His friends are cherished by the half- giant. They also accept him - like family. Dumbledore is 'deus ex machina'...there, but not. Protector but not. Close but from afar. ___________________________________________________________________ Hans on Dobby: A brilliant future. I see him as the liberated etheric body of the alchemist. He will therefore be of great assistance to Harry at the end and will possibly do extremely wonderful and brave deeds. He will possibly be dressed in gold clothes, or some extremely valuable costume, symbolising the radiant "golden wedding vesture" of the candidate for the Alchemical Wedding. ___________________________________________________________________ Kathy: I don't know about all that...I agree that Dobby will be of great assistance to Harry at the end of Book 7. I've often wondered if the Fountain of Magical Bretheren somehow had the magic backwards - and that it is the house-elves (at the bottom of the fountain) that are the most powerful. We don't hear about them in any of the history classes. Obviously there is nothing in Hogwarts, A History or any other known book of academia, as Hermione would have much more to say on the subject. So, all we can hope for is that Dobby has no intention of obeying Harry's last request in COS. KathyO From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun May 15 17:27:30 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:27:30 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128957 > stickbook: > That's food for thought. Out of curiousity, what led you to this > conclusion, Chys? Chys: No one mentions things like that in the story, so it's not really something solidly canon, and they don't go too in depth with her character, yet, so I don't know. It's unexpected and no one has brought it up as a possibility that I know of. That, and my sister believes it's something that no one would suspect when I brought it up with her, and that sounded very possible since strange stuff happens in these books. It could have happened based on the fact that LV didn't seem to think of her as a threat, seemed like he would have spared her, like she was not an obstacle until she became persistent. Maybe she went blind later on after her school days, since she seemed to know what was going on with Snape, I don't know, but I'm not certain how that would relate to Harry aside from some form of charm on her part. > > > CSL again: > > 1. Ron and Hermione will Kiss. > > stickbook: > I have a question about this contest. What if some thing like the > above happens off-screen and Harry doesn't find out until much later > (as in, Book 7), how will people get credit? Harry is wonderful, but > let's face it, he's not the most astute observer. Shouldn't the > contest requirement be that these predictions have to pan out in a way > that Harry actively notices them? Ah, just another problem with the > Shipping Wars... Chys: I thought that was a possibility, but whatever happens is fine with me. ^_^; Wether they do or not is of no great importance, but I am highly doubting that it would happen 'on screen' unless Harry accidentally walked into it, or it was right after a life-death situation and it was spur of the moment. I do agree, that should be taken into consideration for those who are serious about the challenge. What say the challenge master, eh? Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun May 15 17:32:57 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:32:57 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest/ Lily is blind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > What is Lily's big secret? > She was blind. > > > This would be so amazing. Can anyone find canon to confirm or refute > this suggestion? Chys: Though I suggested it in the first place, I really have nothing to back it up, except that LV didn't seem to think she was a threat to him at GH until she became persistent and he killed her. It just kind of came to me as I wrote it out, and I don't know why. One arguement against it is that she seemed to know what was going on with Snape in school when James and Sirius were picking on him, but the blindness could have happened at a later date. I do think there's a charm involved though, or some kind of potion, if that truly WERE the case. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun May 15 17:40:29 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:40:29 -0000 Subject: Nit-picking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128959 On the seating? Maybe there was a walkway behind the box where they could greet and meet people passing by to another box across the way. This would explain why Percy always had to jump up to greet them, as they're off to the side or behind them. Maybe there were only 20 seats in their box and more boxes lined up. I was at a place like this before, but there were more like 30 seats in a box, with four rows. It was annoying having people walking and making noise behind us while we were trying to watch a game. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun May 15 17:46:22 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:46:22 -0000 Subject: Pick a son for Snape. Was: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128960 > Potioncat: > Hermione sees Montague's parents coming to Hogwarts to visit him. And > we're told Viktor looks just like his father. Chys: If it's none of them maybe his son is younger than school age? Chys From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 15 17:58:15 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:58:15 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128961 > wherritt009: > > My response to this is what if they did know that LV was not a pureblood but, followed him > because of what he wanted to accomplish and not because of who he was. This idea could > be akin to the Nazi's during WWII. Hitler said that the only people that should be alive are > blonde hair blue eyed people, but Hitler himself was not blonde haired or blue eyed. a_svirn: Did he really say that? I wonder. > wherritt009: Voldemort's hatred of muggle borns and > his being the "most powerful evil wizard in a hundred years" could have also have made > people like Lucius follow him even though they knew about his past. > a_svirn: Lucius didn't have to follow anybody, much less a half-blood Muggle- bred nobody to indulge in his hatred for muggle-borns. He was doing quite well on his own. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 15 18:38:40 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:38:40 -0000 Subject: Lucius & the diary (was: Voldemort's recruitment) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128962 > Carol: : My hypothesis is that Lucius Malfoy's > father, who would have been about Tom Riddle's age and a Slytherin, > was one of the close friends to whom Tom revealed his new name and his > heritage as Heir of Slytherin. These friends would have known that Tom > was releasing the basilisk, and being his devoted followers and > believers in the pureblood ethic, would have approved of what he was > doing. Later, before Tom disappeared to consort with "the worst of our > kind" to learn the secrets of immortality, I think he left his diary > (and possibly most of his worldly possessions except his wand) with > his friend Malfoy, the future father of Lucius. a_svirn: I basically agree with your reasoning, but why should we suppose that it was Malfoy's father? It could just as well have been his mother... Just think of the possibilities! Carol: > I'm guessing that Malfoy Sr. was among the first to become a Death > Eater after Voldemort returned and that he was one of the few who knew > Voldemort's true identity a_svirn: Your premise is then, that DE were those who followed Voldemort. Yet didn't JKR say that DE has been around for some time? They called differently ? the Knights of Walpurgis ? but essentially were the same bad guys. In which case it might have been other way round ? LV followed his older friends (Lucius's father, for instance). And that's how he was able to dabble in the Dark Arts while still at school. It's not like they are in the curriculum. (Well, we don't know what the curriculum looked like half century ago, but I still doubt that they taught Dark Arts). Carol: > Anyway, I seriously doubt that Lucius's chief motive was to get the > Weasleys into trouble; it was just a felicitous little coincidence > that Ginny Weasley happened to be on hand to be the recipient of the > diary. a_svirn: I don't believe it was a coincidence. Muggle Protection Act was Arthur's brainchild and it started to become a serious nuisance for Lucius. He was deliberately trying to compromise Weasley. Carol: The scenes with Dobby and Draco strongly suggest that Lucius > wanted to kill or injure Muggleborns. He almost certainly wanted to > disgrace Dumbledore and engineer his removal. He also seems to have > wanted to hurt Harry, though how that was possible if the basilisk > killed only Muggleborns is hard to say. Maybe he thought that with > Diary!Tom controlling the monster, it would change its target once Tom > knew who Harry was and that he was in the school. a_svirn: Then why didn't he inform Tom Riddle about Harry's existence? He couldn't have known that Ginny was having a crush on Harry and would be boring Tom with tales of his heroic deeds, could he? Carol: And I don't rule out > a desire on Lucius' part to bring Voldemort back to life as a teenage > boy. If Vapormort were to possess his own teenage body, he would be > twice as powerful as before, not to mention youthful and beautiful > instead of snakelike--and indebted to his loyal servant, Lucius Malfoy > for this glorious state of affairs. a_svirn: Lucius seems much better off without LV grateful or otherwise. It is always nicer to be a master than a slave. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 15 18:52:58 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:52:58 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saieditor" wrote: > I have this hunch that Kreacher is no longer at Grimmauld Place, and > is now in service of Narcissa Malfoy, who is > > - the nearest (?) living relative of Black family, and > > - has no house elf > > > > saieditor a_svirn: Not if Dumbledore had something to say about this. And he usually does. a_svirn From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun May 15 19:25:51 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 12:25:51 -0700 Subject: Quidditch in HBP In-Reply-To: <200505142201.j4EM0QH3001028@server1.rogersmithsoftware.com> Message-ID: <001201c55983$e8e92af0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 128964 Recently, there was a discussion here concerning whether or not Quidditch would be a part of future books with a war on. While browsing JKR's web site today, after several messages about updates, I found the below tidbit in the rumors section. Looks like Quidditch will be going strong. And very curious, her use of the word "captains". Any thoughts? "Colin and Dennis Creevey will be the new Gryffindor Beaters Nice idea, but no. The new Gryffindor Beaters will be completely new finds of the new Captain's." Sherry From scolere at gmail.com Sun May 15 16:10:25 2005 From: scolere at gmail.com (Sass) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:10:25 +0100 Subject: Papa Snape In-Reply-To: <1116157552.24508.458.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1116157552.24508.458.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128965 > Barmaid now: > > Are you buying?? Round for the house then! > > Don't worry, if you do have to give up butterbeer for a year there is > always firewhiskey! > > She is most likely playing with us, I agree, but I do sort of like > the idea that there is a Snapelet somewhere. I like the kinds of > theories that include Snape's family having something to do with > Snape's return to the fold. (oh and I do think he has really > returned to the fold.... he just has a very damaged heart and can't > quiet get to "good" yet.) A quick search with Google indicated that it's been suggested both in fanfic in various places and on message boards such as darkmark.com - clearly these people are either in their right minds (but not according to your definition of someone who's in their right mind), or they've got even more vivid imaginations than you people possess - and after a week of reading your messages, I feel that's saying something ! *smile* I smile to show no offence is intended - where you get your strange theories from is a mystery to me - clearly I'm reading HP rather differently than most of the folks whose messages I've read here ! Sass -- "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca From anurim at yahoo.com Sun May 15 18:41:00 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 11:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lucius & the diary In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050515184100.19385.qmail@web32611.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128966 Sorry if this doesn't make much sense - I haven't read the books in a while - but here is a possible interpretation: Perhaps Lucius didn't know about the LV-TR connection. Perhaps he even thought that Tom Riddle was a made-up name. Even if Riddle was a bit of a Slytherin model student, it is not likely that he would be famous, not 20 years after his time in school. After all, present Gryffindor students wouldn't know much about James Potter or Bill Weasley if they didn't happen to have relatives of them as class mates. What Lucius obviously knew was that the diary was full of dark magic. Perhaps he took it with him hoping he would sell it on the Knockturn Alley (perhaps he choose to visit the shop on that day since he was taking Draco to buy his school supplies anyway, so he didn't need to make the trip twice). Or perhaps he meant to show the diary as a sample of what sort of objects dodgy people could still find in his mansion, in order to persuade them to pay him a visit. Lucius already had a lot against Arthur, because of his muggle-loving habits. After the fight, perhaps he slipped the diary into Ginny's cauldron as an attempt of revenge, hoping perhaps that if Ginny was found with a dark magic object, Arthur would be discredited. I am not sure Lucius knew the diary could help open the CoS again. After all, when he found out about it he told Draco to stay put - which seems a cautious, if not scared, reaction. Perhaps Lucius started to guess the diary had something to do with opening the CoS only after strange things started to happen. And only then did he start to think how he could use them to his advantage, for instance by removing Dumbledore from power. Why would Dobby warn Harry that bad things were about to happen, then? We know how much Draco hated Harry. We know how he was even a bit obsessed with him. We can imagine how Draco spent the whole of his summer holiday badmouthing Harry and threatening to destroy him. Perhaps Lucius, or more likely Narcissa, tried to comfort him by promising to fight against 'bad Harry'. Now, we know how Dobby had a miserable life, how all house-elves took even worse abuse during Voldemort's first reign. Dobby's only comfort, his hero, his idol, was Harry, the boy who defeated the bad guys and thus fought on the side of the opressed little creatures. It is not unconceivable that after hearing all summer anti-Harry things, even if they were empty threats, Dobby started to grow anxious and decided to keep Harry away from the people who wanted to harm him. We know that house-elves can be quite naive at times, believing what they are told even, especially by their masters, even if it is not the truth. This is one idea, and it seems to me that it fits with the events. But I don't find unlikely that Lucius did know who Voldermort really was, even his half-blood status. Lucius is the kind of guy who would side with anybody with the purpose of getting power. Perhaps Lucius secretly hoped that once Voldemort would win, he could reveal the half-blood secret, and thus turn DE against Voldermort and replace him as the leader. It doesn't seem to me that Lucius would care for his relatives (Bellatrix for instance) enough to be honest with them. Just my 2 knuts. ALuna __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From williams.miranda at gmail.com Sun May 15 17:15:51 2005 From: williams.miranda at gmail.com (the_ghost_kitten) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 17:15:51 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128967 Hey! I'm new to the HPFGU community, so please bear with me if I manage to break any rules! I was wondering if anyone has ever had any thoughts on Voldemort's wand and how he got it back after he was "destroyed" at Godric's Hollow. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed - I did a search and couldn't find anything. If he became formless and was then forced to occupy the bodies of small animals, surely he couldn't have carried it with him? And who picked it up from the ruins of the Potter's house? In CS, he takes Harry's wand so clearly doesn't have access to his own. However, by GF we know that he has a wand again, and waht is more we know that it is HIS wand, not merely one stolen from other wizard - it remains the brother to Harry's wand. The only possibilities I can think of can easily be disproved - Wormtail gave it back to him - this fails on several points. We do not know how Wormtail keeps his own wand (perhaps he doesn't - I wondered if he forced to acquire a new one once he goes back to Voldemort - perhaps he inherits Bertha Jorkins'.). How would Wormtail as a rat have carried either his or Voldemort's wand, even if he had been the one to retrieve the wand from the rubble of the house? Lucius Malfoy (or another Death Eater) kept it, along with some of his other possessions (including of course Tom Riddle's diary), and then somehow returned it to Voldemort. This seems highly unlikely - while it might have been possible for Malfoy to retrieve the wand from the wreckage of the house, how would he have returned it to his missing master, and when? There was no suggestion in the graveyard that Voldemort and Malfoy had had any contact since Voldemort's disappearance, and the fact that Voldemort explicitly states that none of his Death Eaters except Wormtail sought him out seems to disprove it entirely. It is, I suppose, theoretically possible that Voldemort was using another wizard's wand up until the graveyard scene in GF (for example, to kill Frank), and that Malfoy brought the real wand with him when he apparated in the graveyard and gave it to him then, but this seems the sort of thing that JKR would have mentioned! So, does anyone have any ideas with fewer holes? the_ghost_kitten From cat_kind at yahoo.com Sun May 15 20:15:50 2005 From: cat_kind at yahoo.com (cat_kind) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:15:50 -0000 Subject: Predictions & PS on Sirius In-Reply-To: <20050515124350.15426.qmail@web26110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128968 Hans: > Catkind asked me why I didn't participate in this if I could > see the pattern of Harry Potter so clearly. catkind: I understand what you're saying, Hans. But you must be just as capable as the rest of us at making intelligent guesses about the next MoM, and you ought to be able to score some good points on the random predictions section if you're right. No pressure, of course, it's just a bit of fun. Perhaps you will feel more able to take part in a corresponding contest for the next book. Part of the reason I challenged you to participate was that you have been known to brag about your predictions for Book 5, and to use them as proof that your theories are correct. Personally, I found said predictions sufficiently vague that you would have been able to claim them fulfilled whatever happened in Book 5, but it's hard to show that after the fact. It would have been nice to have an independent verification if you want to make similar claims after Book 6. For example, I think one could make a good argument for any of Books 1-5 being about freeing the emotional ego, and I don't expect HBP to be any exception. But your character predictions are interesting. Several of them are testable, after Book 7 if not after Book 6. *** To some extent of course, Hans is predicting a happy ending for the good characters and a bad ending for the bad characters. Well, I suppose JKR might choose to have LV win and spend a happy eternity torturing kittens and Muggles. (<- sarcasm alert!) What's more, several of Hans' predicted happy endings don't seem to preclude the characters in question being dead. Here's a list predictions Hans makes which I see as testable and not entirely a priori obvious. For fun, I've given my personal opinion as a percentage likelihood that the prediction will come true, on the assumption that there's no Rosicrucian conspiracy. Two of the trio will get married in book 7. (5%) (Ron and Hermione will get together, but married? Unlikely. There might be a note that they get married later, but Hans' prediction seems to require an onscreen wedding. I suppose it's conceivable as an add-on later-that-year happy final scene.) Dumbledore will perform the ceremony. (80% given wedding happens) (Who else? I'll assign the remaining 20% to the Fat Friar and McGonagall in the event that DD's dead.) Dobby may wear gold at the wedding. (60% given wedding happens) (If there's a wedding, Dobby will wear something absurd, and if it's a Gryff wedding he's likely to wear something red and gold.) Ron and Hermione will die and be resurrected. (5%) (Unlikely, but I suppose conceivable. They are likely to be in severe danger and probably to get injured again.) Harry will pass through the Veil without dying. (10%) (I personally think we're done with the veil, others don't.) Snape will sacrifice himself in the war. (50%) (He's too unpleasant to have a happy ending.) Lupin will sacrifice himself in the war. (30%) (Well, the omens don't look good, but I'm for at least one Marauder surviving.) Draco will die or serve Harry. (10%) (He'll be defeated, but isn't important enough to die. Even Umbridge didn't die.) Crabbe and Goyle will help Harry to defeat Draco. (10%) (Only by their sheer incompetence.) Hagrid will no longer be Keeper of the Keys by the end of the series. (80%) (He's already moved up to teacher, and even if he survives is quite likely to take off to Beauxbatons at some point.) Harry may take the job. (10%) (It would be a neat resolution. Would also fit with one of my current pet theories, Harry losing his magic in the final battle.) Filch will do magic. (10%) (Someone unexpected is supposed to do magic, but there's also Petunia, Dudley and Mrs Figg as candidates.) Lucius will survive. (50%) (Thus far the baddies aren't really getting killed, but if they start doing so I'd peg Lucius as a prime candidate.) Narcissa will end up serving Harry.(20%) (Not buying this one, but then we know nothing about Narcissa as yet, so I'm not prepared to bet too high against it.) Is that reasonable, Hans? Statistically speaking, it is likely that a few of these will come true anyway. If many do, I will vote for according Hans all the bragging rights he wants! Hans: > Just as an aside I want to add that Jo says very clearly she was > inspired in June 1990 on that famous train journey (...). That's > her own word: "inspired". catkind: I'm not sure why you think this word "inspired" supports your argument. Unless you think JKR was reading the Chymical Wedding on the train? catkind From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Sun May 15 20:20:21 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:20:21 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128969 > > Barmaid now: > > > > Are you buying?? Round for the house then! > > > > Don't worry, if you do have to give up butterbeer for a year there is always firewhiskey! > > > > She is most likely playing with us, I agree, but I do sort of like > > the idea that there is a Snapelet somewhere. I like the kinds of > > theories that include Snape's family having something to do with > > Snape's return to the fold. (oh and I do think he has really > > returned to the fold.... he just has a very damaged heart and can't quiet get to "good" yet.) Then Sass > A quick search with Google indicated that it's been suggested both in fanfic in various places and on message boards such as darkmark.com - clearly these people are either in their right minds (but not according to your definition of someone who's in their right mind), or they've got even more vivid imaginations than you people possess - and after a week of reading your messages, I feel that's saying something! *smile* I smile to show no offence is intended - where you get your strange theories from is a mystery to me - clearly I'm reading HP rather differently than most of the folks whose messages I've read here ! > > Sass > -- > "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca Barmaid now: Ummmm now sure why you left only my post in when you snipped as I never made any comment about anyone not being in their "right mind"... ???? While I had not heard much about Luna as Snape's daughter before JKR told us she is not I have heard plenty of other imaginative theories. Many revolving around The Giant Squid... so... no offence taken, just some confusion felt :smiles back: Anyway.... just in case you are actually referring to anything I say in the snip above... When I say that I think JKR is most likely playing with us it was in reference to her use of the word "daughter"... as in Snape does not have a daughter. As I say above, I am very open to the idea of Snape having a kid. On the other hand, I personally think that by saying he does not have a daughter she is not *necessarily* saying that he does have a son. He may. But mostly it seems to me that she enjoys the idea of us speculating about the whole thing, and either way does not want to give us information that would stop us from having our grand theorizing fun! That said, I do not know what "strange theories" I have put forth that you could be responding to...??? --The Barmaid From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun May 15 20:20:03 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:20:03 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saieditor" > wrote: > > I have this hunch that Kreacher is no longer at Grimmauld Place, > and is now in service of Narcissa Malfoy, who is > > - the nearest (?) living relative of Black family, and > > - has no house elf > > a_svirn: > Not if Dumbledore had something to say about this. And he usually > does. Tonks: Maybe DD takes Kreacher to Hogwarts. If he is under service there cleaning the kitchen or something he can't get out to tell any secrets. Course he could have his memory altered too. Or maybe Mad-Eye took *care* of things and we will see ol' Kreacher on the wall. Tonks_op From beckimajor at yahoo.com Sun May 15 19:53:34 2005 From: beckimajor at yahoo.com (thyladyanwyn) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:53:34 -0000 Subject: Grimald Place/OotP/Harry(was Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128971 --- Steve wrote: I don't think Kreacher is still bonded by anything but general loyalty. As far as magical bonds or slavery, he has lost his Master, as well as all other Black ascendants and descendants, and is now a free agent. Again, I want to emphasize that even though I believe Kreacher is a free agent, he is still very loyal and dedicated to the Black family. Lady Anwyn writes: While I agree in part, Dumbledore is aware that Kreacher went to the Malfoys and holds some allegiance to (them)...but that he is bound to the manor and the Blacks. Since that's where the HQ for the Order is, Dumbledore must have his reasons for trusting Kreacher...to an extent at least. Wouldn't the possibility of Kreacher's allegiance to Harry change things a bit? I don't think that Hermione will continue her quest to free the House Elves. I do think that the only one who will be able to persuade Kreacher will be Dumbledore. Would not Harry as Sirius' godson be heir to Grimald Place? If so, then Kreacher would have to answer to him. Correct? Hmm...that would put a different spin on things if Kreacher would also feel a sense of allegiance to Draco, eh? ~~ Anwyn From beckimajor at yahoo.com Sun May 15 20:10:02 2005 From: beckimajor at yahoo.com (thyladyanwyn) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:10:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's Credibility? (was: Papa Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128972 Barmaid writes: I like the kinds of theories that include Snape's family having something to do with Snape's return to the fold. (oh and I do think he has really returned to the fold.... he just has a very damaged heart and can't quiet get to "good" yet.) Lady Anwyn writes: I remember reading that Snape knew more about the DADA upon entering Hogwarts than most Seventh Year students. He also apparently didn't know how to ride a broomstick, having been laughed-at by a girl. He was teased a lot for his 'greasiness'. To me, he doesn't have a lot of social graces, which might indicate the possibility that at one time he was taught the DADA out of famililial preservation and in that course had no time for much socialising. ~~ Anwyn From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun May 15 21:03:29 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:03:29 -0000 Subject: Snape has a SON??? Theory Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" wrote: > I read some other posts in here about this, I think someone gave the theory that his son is the Half Blood Prince, sorry I didn't pay > attention to who said it. I think this is an interesting theory. > Tonks: Losing my mind.. Sure that I sent a reply, but it isn't there. Still sitting in the pub, may have been here a tad too long. Reading current post... Spits out a mouthful of butterbeer. Lol. I started the rumor about Snape having a son who is the Half-Blood prince. Not a word of truth in it. Not a word. Now look .. the heading ... "Snape has a Son! See what happens when you start a rumor. Not a word of thuth. Even I don't believe it. More butterbeer please. Hiccup!! Tonks_op From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 15 21:45:01 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:45:01 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128974 > > Tonks: > Maybe DD takes Kreacher to Hogwarts. If he is under service there > cleaning the kitchen or something he can't get out to tell any > secrets. Course he could have his memory altered too. Or maybe > Mad-Eye took *care* of things and we will see ol' Kreacher on the > wall. > > Tonks_op bboyminn: I've already commented several times that I think Dumbledore 'dispatched', to put it politely, Kreacher and his head is now hanging on the wall with his ancestors. Kreacher is just to volatile and unstable to keep around. Your idea of Dumbledore taking Kreacher on at Hogwart is interesting, but I do see a few /logistical/ problems. First the wizard/elf relationship is not like true slavery. Elves are not captured in the wild and forced against their will into the service of their Master; Elves willingly enter service and eagerly serve. So, I have to wonder and doubt whether Dumbledore could just take Kreacher to Hogwarts and say 'you work here now'. It seems that any potential Master must ask and Kreacher must to consent to work, it is that /consent/ that creates the magic that binds him to his service. I have stated in the past that I believe the strongest force holding an elf in his 'slavery' is the bond of his own word which is further bound by many centuries of proud and honorable elfin tradition. So, in my view, for Dumbledore to engage Kreacher in the services of Hogwarts, he would somehow have to convince Kreachere to come voluntarily. While I can imagine that it is possible, I can't imagine what Dumbledore might have said to convince Kreacher. At least, I can't think of anything beyond 'server me or die'. I'm curious if you have projected a scenario in which Dumbledore talks Kreacher into consenting to work at Hogwarts? Truth be told, even though I believe Kreacher is dead, I don't want him to be dead. I would love for someone to come up with some way for Kreacher to continue to live in a way that he is not a deadly threat to the Order or anyone else. It would certainly be fun if he lived so he could continued to annoy the heck out of everyone, but I see Kreacher as a dangerous and deadly problem that must be delt with. I would love for Hermione to woo him with kindness, or Dumbledore to turn him with logic, but I just don't see that happening. I'm open to any alternatives, very open, but for the moment, I just don't see how Kreacher can be allowed to live. Steve/bboyminn From williams.miranda at gmail.com Sun May 15 21:36:54 2005 From: williams.miranda at gmail.com (the_ghost_kitten) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:36:54 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128975 I wrote previously: > I was wondering if anyone has ever had any thoughts on Voldemort's > wand and how he got it back after he was "destroyed" at Godric's > Hollow. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed - I did a search and couldn't find anything. > > If he became formless and was then forced to occupy the bodies of > small animals, surely he couldn't have carried it with him? And who > picked it up from the ruins of the Potter's house? > There's a brief discussion of the problem here (many thanks to Shorty Elf for the suggestion - I went back and had another look) http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/essays/timeline_potters2.html but it still doesn't really seem to give a satisfactory answer! the_ghost_kitten From jaanise at hello.lv Sun May 15 22:28:01 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JanisE) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 01:28:01 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Veritaserum was ot used at Sirius' trial? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c5599d$5a737220$fac5f554@janisdat> No: HPFGUIDX 128976 -----Original Message----- From: Alla To tell you the truth, now I am wondering even more whether non-use of Veritaserum was a plot hole. She basically said nothing that fanfiction writers did not predict. Yes, the only way to get out of non-use of the Veritaserum is to say that it is not 100% correct, that it can be resisted, etc. etc. etc. The question is whether she planned it that way from the beginning or she had to come with the answer now,when many fans undoubtedly asked her that. -------------------------- Jaanis: Is it really THE question?... Does it really matter *when* does Rowling come up with all the details fans are squeezing out? Certainly she could not think of *everything*! I suppose Rowling has a lot of details about the plot-relevant issues/characters/events, and a general understanding about the rest. And when we ask things that are not closely connected to what we can read in the books, she uses that general understanding, logic and inspiration to satisfy our urge to know even more and more. I don't think there's anything wrong with canon being complemented backwards, and we shouldn't nag about Rowling not having thought about every detail... From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 15 22:25:25 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:25:25 -0000 Subject: Why Veritaserum & Priori Incantatum In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > Carol responds: > What about performing Priori Incantatem on Sirius Black's wand > (which must have been taken directly from his own hand when he was > arrested)? Wouldn't that be less subject to abuse than veritaserum > or legilimency? ...edited... > > Carol, who does think JKR is just covering her tracks regarding > veritaserum but has no way of supporting that opinion and > consequently won't pursue the subject bboyminn: Regarding Priori Incantatum, there is a lot of data we don't have, so it's difficult to speak with any authority. For example, when you recall a spell from a wand does that act delete it from the wand? In the example of Harry's wand being used to cast the Dark Mark, could Amos Diggory recall that last spell several times, or once he recalled it, was it then gone from the wand? I lean toward recalled spells being deleted, but, of course, we really don't know. If recalled spells are deleted, then that creates a way for a wizard to erase his wand. Further, as in Harry's case, we know which wand cast the spell, but we don't know which wizard was holding the wand when the spell was cast, so wand recall is not absolute indesputable evidence. If we transfer this to the real world, we may be able to establish that a specific person's gun killed another person, and we may be able, as we would assume, to establish that the specific person handled the gun, but unless we can put the gun in his hand at the moment of the crime, we really don't have very strong evidence. In Sirius's case, I think the circumstances were so obvious and the eagerness to convict was so extreme, that no one saw any need for confirming evidence. The circumstances themselves seemed to be evidence enough. As to your last point about JKR trying to bluff her way through an explanation of the nature of Veritaserum, I don't think so. Her explanation is essential the exact same explanation for why we don't use various 'truth devices' in the real world. Some people can 'beat the box', that is, beat a lie detector machine. Well trained spies can overcome 'truth serums'. Further, truth is matter of opinion, not an absolute. By Fudge's own statement if the person under the influence of Veritaserum believes something is true, then he will speak it as truth, even when others know the statement to be absurdly false. A good example is Harry in POA, if you asked him in the middle of the book if Sirius Black killed his parents, he would have said with absolute certainty 'YES', if you asked him again at the end of the book, he would have said with absolute certainty 'NO'. If you asked Sirius Black if he was responsible for James and Lily's deaths, he would have said 'Yes', but there is a very specific context to that 'yes'. 'Yes' in that he /felt/ responsible, but absolutely 'no' in his being legally responsible. So, I feel that JKR explanation is probably consistent with her original conception of Veritaserum. Especially since her explanation is consistent with the real world. Magic and it's associated artifacts are not perfect and absolute, and rightly so; she has set definite limits and boundaries in her world. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From anurim at yahoo.com Sun May 15 20:15:32 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050515201532.56938.qmail@web32605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128978 the_ghost_kitten wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has ever had any thoughts > on Voldemort's wand and how he got it back after he was "destroyed" > at Godric's Hollow. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed > - I did a search and couldn't find anything. Hello the_ghost_kitten, As from newbie to newbie:-) Normally, Voldermort should have died when the AK bounced off Harry and hit him. I wonder if one of the protections Voldermort took against death was to somehow transfer part of his spirit into his wand, who was perhaps more resilient than a wizard, especially because it had a phoenix feather as its core. So perhaps the only thing that survived was his wand, or perhaps the powers of his wand; when Voldemort acquired a new body, the wand came to being and could be used again. Peter used Voldemort's wand to kill Bertha, I think, so at that time the wand was already available. I don't know if this makes any sense, but I cannot think of a better explanations as to why Hagrid didn't pick up the wand together with Harry, or if a DE was the first to appear to GH, why he didn't kill baby Harry. Another possibility might be that Barty Crouch jr was the first to find Voldemort's wand and hid it, but didn't want to kill Harry (either knowing that he might help one day get Voldemort back to life, or because he wasn't sure about what had happened and didn't want to risk). I'm saying this because Voldemort had contact with Crouch too in GoF - but I think this happened after he killed Bertha, so I prefer the first theory. What do you think? ALuna From juli17 at aol.com Sun May 15 22:47:52 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 18:47:52 EDT Subject: Snape has a SON??? Theory Lists Message-ID: <78.731bdd48.2fb92b98@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128979 Karen wrote: > I also agree that it seems strange to just say daughter, but we > could all just be putting to much into it and she could just be > playing with us. So, it could be viewed a few different ways: > > 1. He has a son, or..(haha) twins, we just dont' see the > family..basicly. Julie: Definitely possible. The question then would be "Why don't we see or hear about his family?" > 2. JKR is keeping us guessing and says daughter just so we will > continue to think Snape has a son. Julie: Possible. Or she could have just used "daughter" to be literal, without intending to set up speculation. She does mislead to hide plot developments, but I'm not sure she misleads to deliberately send fans down merry paths that lead to nowhere. > 3. He had a son, but she can't say he doesn't have children because > as some have suggested he had a family but they are dead. So, he > still had a son..etc. But he is dead. Julie: Very possible. Which could lead into the reason why Snape left Voldemort, if Voldemort had something to do with the death of Snape's son or family. > 4. His son is someone already at Hogwarts. Maybe Snape and his wife > are divored LOL. or He doesn't want anyone to know because Voldemort > would know and off his family..so they are in hiding. Can you say > witness protection program. Julie: Possible. Though to hide his son, you'd think Snape would have him stowed away somewhere not so close, and not right in the middle of the likely chaos that is coming (given Harry Potter is destined to be right in the middle of things and is at Hogwarts). > 5. His son has just turned 11 and will be attending Hogwarts as a > new student in Book 6, that would reasonably give the theory someone > posted about his son being the Half Blood Prince. So, instead of > Snape being a prince, maybe he hooked up with a Princess > somewhere...haha. Can you say Snape=Shrek? LOL Julie: Maybe. But it doesn't seem that likely, since giving him a son makes the most sense if it feeds somehow into the plot. Specifically if the son's existence (or resulting non-existence) is a part of the reason Snape switched sides, in which case the son would have to be Harry's age or a bit older to pre-date Snape's switch. > 5. Ok, so what if he has a Son and he doesn't even know about > it..DOH. Julie: It doesn't seem likely, again because it doesn't really feed the plot (at least not in any way I can think of, though that doesn't mean JKR couldn't have thought of a way!). > 6. Add your own theory here. Julie: I do like the theory that Snape's son might be the half- Blood prince. If Snape was involved with a muggle, that would be sufficient reason to hide the resulting offspring from Voldy. OTOH, we don't know if Snape is a fullblood, as JKR has not be clear about that. Maybe Snape has muggle blood in him and the pure-blood is the mother. As to why the boy would show up now, well, he would be 16-17 yrs old by now, assuming he was born at or before the point when Snape left Voldy. That's an age where it becomes a little hard to keep the reins tight, and when he might, in his mind and/or the minds of others, be at an age where he can now protect himself. WHY Dumbledore trusts Snape: My biggest reason for liking the Snape's son theory, BTW, is that it provides the PERFECT reason why Dumbledore trusts Snape. If Dumbledore helped Snape hide the son from Voldy, and DD is the only other one who knows the boy's whereabouts, then he has every reason to be secure in Snape's loyalty. And it doesn't even matter if Snape just changed sides to protect his son, or if he changed his actual ideology after his son was born. DD can be certain of Snape's loyalty either way! Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun May 15 23:38:24 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 23:38:24 -0000 Subject: Lawyers in the Wizard world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128980 >>Tamara: >Are there lawyers in the wizard world?< Betsy: Of course this very much depends on how you define the word, "lawyer" . Are you talking about someone who goes to law school, passes a series of tests in order to earn the proper credentials, hangs out a shingle or joins a pre-existing firm, and works only on matters pertaining to the law? Or are you talking about someone who represents another person at a trial? Because the two are not necessarily interchangable. If you're refering to the first, I think the answer is no. JKR has already told us that there is no further schooling past Hogwarts, so I doubt there's a specific training ground for lawyers (none of the career pamphlets seemed to cover attorneys) or special tests to take in order to play the part of representative. However, if you're thinking about the second, then the answer is a canonicaly provable, yes. >>Tamara: >Harry goes to his "trial" without any representation, no one seems to be around to represent Hagrid when he is sent off to Azkaban, or Buckbeat at his trial.< Betsy: Actually, only Hagrid is without counsel. (Since there was no trial, I believe he may have been placed in Azkaban as a sort of holding pattern. The WW is brutal like that.) Both Harry and Buckbeak have representatives. Here's Buckbeak's trial, as described by Hagrid: "S'all my fault. Got all tongue-tied. They was all sittin' there in black robes an' I kep' droppin' me notes and forgettin' all them dates yeh looked up fer me, Hermione. An' then Lucius Malfor stood up an' said his bit, and the Committee jus' did exac'ly what he told 'em...." (PoA scholastic hardback ed. p.292) Hagrid was playing the part of Buckbeak's representative (complete with examples of legal precedent to argue with) and Malfoy played the part of prosecutor. Next there's Harry's hearing. While Dumbledore introduces himself as a witness for the defense, he behaves very much as Harry's representative. He calls Mrs. Figg as a witness (after citing law to ensure she *was* called), and then brings up the very law that gets Harry off. "Clause seven of the Decree states that magic may be used before Muggles in exceptional circumstances, and as those exceptional circumstances include situations that threaten the life of the wizard or witch himself, or witches, wizards, or Muggles present at the time of the --" (OotP scholastic p.148) In both cases the person (or creature) on trial had someone, armed with legal knowledge, representing their interests. Clearly, both Dumbledore and Hagrid are amateurs (Hagrid more amateurish than Dumbledore). And I think this is probably the case in most, if not all, trials and hearings in the WW. But just as clearly, there are laws that guide the proceedings, and people who try and use those laws to best represent their side. (I would recommend Expecto Patronus, by Pharnabazus found here: http://www.livejournal.com/community/hp_essays/7250.html for a really indepth look on the workings of the WW.) >>Tamara: >I'm also sorry that the idea of lawyers hasn't been seriously breached, as it would be a perfect career for Hermione to go into I think. She did all the research for Buckbeat's trial, and her work with S.P.E.W. shows she obviously cares a lot for those who don't have someone on their side.< Betsy: I can totally see this type of career for Hermione. And I can see her ushering more formal legal representatives into the WW -- people who devote themselves soley or mainly to the law. I would argue with the idea that the idea of lawyers (or more properly, the idea of fair and equal laws) have not been breached. I think there are so many examples of *unfair* legal practices within the WW (Sirius, Hagrid, Umbridge's reign, etc.) and they have been so prominently raised by JKR, I cannot imagine that she'll allow things to remain status quo. Betsy From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 16 00:58:20 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 00:58:20 -0000 Subject: Lawyers in the Wizard world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > Betsy: > I can totally see this type of career for Hermione. And I can see her ushering more formal legal representatives into the WW -- people who devote themselves soley or mainly to the law. I would argue with the idea that the idea of lawyers (or more properly, the idea of fair and equal laws) have not been breached. I think there are so many examples of *unfair* legal practices within the WW (Sirius, Hagrid, Umbridge's reign, etc.) and they have been so prominently raised by JKR, I cannot imagine that she'll allow things to remain status quo.< Pippin: I think these three issues are related: no lawyers, no formal study of wizarding law except for those apprenticed to the ministry, and Hermione's career plans. The first universities in the real world were established for the study of law. Perhaps Hermione is destined to found the wizarding world's first institute of higher education. Pippin From tifflblack at earthlink.net Sun May 15 20:41:16 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (tiffany black) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 13:41:16 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back? References: Message-ID: <014301c5598e$78050470$3936ff04@self6e4d6e0c5b> No: HPFGUIDX 128982 Ghost Kitten wrote > I was wondering if anyone has ever had any thoughts on Voldemort's > wand and how he got it back after he was "destroyed" at Godric's > Hollow. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed - I did a > search and couldn't find anything. > > If he became formless and was then forced to occupy the bodies of > small animals, surely he couldn't have carried it with him? And who > picked it up from the ruins of the Potter's house? Tiffany says: Funny you ask. I was just wondering about the same thing the other day. Ghost kitten wrote: > Wormtail gave it back to him - this fails on several points. We do > not know how Wormtail keeps his own wand (perhaps he doesn't - I > wondered if he forced to acquire a new one once he goes back to > Voldemort - perhaps he inherits Bertha Jorkins'.). How would > Wormtail as a rat have carried either his or Voldemort's wand, > even if he had been the one to retrieve the wand from the rubble > of the house? Tiffany says: My best guess is that Petegrew picked it up and then took off before Sirius found the Potters. I can't imagine one of the order being careless enough to give it bakc to a death eater, or leave it lying around if they were first to discover the potters. i think that wizards do retain their wands when they transorm into animals, so maybe Wormtail's been caryying Voldemort's in a pocket all this time. My other best guess is that DD or the ministry had it stored somewhere and Wormtail or Crouch JR disguised as Moody stole it. From beckimajor at yahoo.com Sun May 15 20:55:01 2005 From: beckimajor at yahoo.com (thyladyanwyn) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 20:55:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back?/PS Twins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128983 the_ghost_kitten writes: Hey! I'm new to the HPFGU community, so please bear with me if I manage to break any rules! Lady Anwyn writes: Hi and welcome! I'm new here too and still learning the rules. the_ghost_kitten writes: I was wondering if anyone has ever had any thoughts on Voldemort's wand and how he got it back after he was "destroyed" at Godric's Hollow. If he became formless and was then forced to occupy the bodies of small animals, surely he couldn't have carried it with him? And who picked it up from the ruins of the Potter's house? We do not know how Wormtail keeps his own wand (perhaps he doesn't - I wondered if he forced to acquire a new one once he goes back to Voldemort - perhaps he inherits Bertha Jorkins'). How would Wormtail as a rat have carried either his or Voldemort's wand, even if he had been the one to retrieve the wand from the rubble of the house? Lady Anwyn writes: You raise a good point, ghostkitten. I can't see where that was ever mentioned either, and it does seem like something JKR would mention -- save other 'cryptic' allusions she's made through the series. We don't know exactly when Wormtail transformed himself into a rat, so there is the possibility that he went to Godric's Hollow himself to retrieve Voldemort's wand and took it to the Riddle house before transforming himself. I would like to know where Nagina came from and whether she is an animagus. Is it possible that she is his long-lost twin sister? ~~ Lady Anwyn P. S. Oo! More twins? From beckimajor at yahoo.com Sun May 15 21:22:32 2005 From: beckimajor at yahoo.com (thyladyanwyn) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 21:22:32 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128984 Tonks: Maybe DD takes Kreacher to Hogwarts. If he is under service there cleaning the kitchen or something he can't get out to tell any secrets. Course he could have his memory altered too. Or maybe Mad- Eye took *care* of things and we will see ol' Kreacher on the wall. Tonks_op Anwyn: I don't think Dumbledore would allow Mad-Eye to 'take care of' Kreacher in that way, but I do think it a good possibility that he would take Kreacher to Hogwarts to preserve The Order's secrets. With at least Lucius Malfoy and Fudge out of the way, there would be less likelyhood of *someone* 'getting to' Kreacher there. ~~ Anwyn From caseyhrobinson at sbcglobal.net Sun May 15 21:39:03 2005 From: caseyhrobinson at sbcglobal.net (Casey Robinson) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 14:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Lilly being blind In-Reply-To: <1116188485.14708.42057.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050515213903.52175.qmail@web81504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128985 wrote: > What is Lily's big secret? > She was blind. > In answer to whether or not this could be true, although a wonderful idea, I find three bits in the cannon that refutes it. 1. In SS She looks back at Harry through the Mirror of Eresed. 2. THroughout the ENTIRE series, Harry is constantly told that he has his mother's eyes. While true that this could be solely the look, it would be really disturbing that people would be telling Harry that he has his blind mothers eyes. 3. Furthermore, Harry saw his parents looking back at himt hrough numerous photographs. There has never been mention of sunglasses. Now it is possible, I find it highly unlikely, unless of ocurse blindness came at later stages, and the mirror of eresed shows them as they were happiest, etc, etc. Do remember that harry has seen fragments of his mother, even in the form in which she died, at the end of GoF. Again, magical world, wierd things occur after death, who knows, but I highly doubt it. Casey From beckimajor at yahoo.com Mon May 16 01:02:23 2005 From: beckimajor at yahoo.com (thyladyanwyn) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 01:02:23 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128986 There has been speculation that the Sorting Hat in somehow fallible. I disagree. Harry chose to be placed in 'anything but Slytherin' (SS), and the only other choice the Sorting Hat gave was Gryffindor House. Dumbledore reminded him of that in Book II CS. I don't see any other references that would lead me to any other conclusion. ~~ Anwyn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon May 16 02:19:59 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 22:19:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quidditch in HBP Message-ID: <29.733c4f0b.2fb95d4f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128987 In a message dated 5/15/2005 2:27:47 PM Central Standard Time, sherriola at earthlink.net writes: Recently, there was a discussion here concerning whether or not Quidditch would be a part of future books with a war on. While browsing JKR's web site today, after several messages about updates, I found the below tidbit in the rumors section. Looks like Quidditch will be going strong. And very curious, her use of the word "captains". Any thoughts? "Colin and Dennis Creevey will be the new Gryffindor Beaters Nice idea, but no. The new Gryffindor Beaters will be completely new finds of the new Captain's." Sherry In this instance the apostrophe in the word "captain's" means that it is not a plural form the word. The captain alone was responsible for discovering (or finding) the beaters. Hence the were "the new Captain's finds". Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From empooress at yahoo.com Mon May 16 02:30:30 2005 From: empooress at yahoo.com (Kim McGibony) Date: Sun, 15 May 2005 19:30:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Predictions & PS on Sirius In-Reply-To: <1116188485.14708.42057.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050516023030.8654.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 128988 From: Hans Andra In real life the seeker is born first, then the soul many years later. But in Harry Potter it's the other way around, seen in chronological order. First Harry and Neville are born one day apart, and then eleven years later Neville causes Harry to be made Seeker. Empooress: I've read several of your postings, on the "Alchemical path of Liberation", but this bit just seem rather confused. One is born with out a soul??? And Neville causes Harry to be made Seeker;yes, indirectly he does, but it could also be said that Draco or Macgonall cause him to be made seeker. And he is made seeker on a sports team. If one is seeking in a religious way, then I think one must make one's self a seeker. It is, I think, rather a far stretch, to say that this has in any way confirmed your confused theories of things alchemical. Would I be wrong in guessing that your "Path of Liberation" could be applied to other books, say Moby Dick or Cat in the Hat?? Having been a long time student of mythologies, I just have real problems with the mis-mash of ideas you've drawn from various traditions to cobble together what may be the most convoluted view of a work of fiction, that I've ever seen. Empooress Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Mon May 16 03:14:55 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 03:14:55 -0000 Subject: Snape has a SON??? Theory Lists In-Reply-To: <78.731bdd48.2fb92b98@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128989 Adding a new theory I just though of here first: Also another idea I have just had is, based somewhat on the theory of Snape being loyal to dumbledore, and somewhat on Snape having a son that was killed, What if Snape, did something to try and Save Neville/Harry/ or Both or the Potters or something for the order that involved one of them (harry/neville), I don't have any idea what, this is just an idea, but what if in doing so he got his own child/family killed because of those actions. Could that not be a very good reason why he might dislike/hate Harry and/or Neville so much, because he sees them as the reason his child/family is dead. Or, when he looks at them he might find it hard because his own child would be their age...etc etc. Ok on with my reply. > > > > 1. He has a son, or..(haha) twins, we just dont' see the > > family..basicly. > Julie reply: Definitely possible. The question then would be "Why don't > we see or hear about his family?" KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Maybe the reason is the child is in hiding, I guess this one could fall under #4, so, my theories are multitasking. > > > 2. JKR is keeping us guessing and says daughter just so we will > > continue to think Snape has a son. > Julie Reply: Possible. Or she could have just used "daughter" to be literal, > without intending to set up speculation. She does mislead to hide > plot developments, but I'm not sure she misleads to deliberately > send fans down merry paths that lead to nowhere. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I agree, but I'm sure she knows by saying daughter, we are going to start going..hummmm...cause when I first read it, I though, daughter? why didn't she say kids or children. Actually I had never heard the Luna being Snapes child theory, I only went to the website actually because on the Lexicon it listed Sprout as having a birthday, and I clicked on the link..and stared to explore. So Sprout's first name is...isan't that a city? > > 4. His son is someone already at Hogwarts. Maybe Snape and his wife > > are divored LOL. or He doesn't want anyone to know because Voldemort > > would know and off his family..so they are in hiding. Can you say > > witness protection program. > > Julie: Possible. Though to hide his son, you'd think Snape would have > him stowed away somewhere not so close, and not right in the middle > of the likely chaos that is coming (given Harry Potter is destined to be > right in the middle of things and is at Hogwarts). KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Maybe I should have made this one as two theories, I was thinking maybe it is a child at hogwarts,and also at the same time was thinking the kid might not be at hogwarts, and to connect Theory #5 and add a new twist, maybe neither of them know about each other..meh..well, if it was Severus Snape, instead of Harry Potter books, I'd say it'd make a great story..anywayz. > > > > 5. Ok, so what if he has a Son and he doesn't even know about > > it..DOH. > > Julie: It doesn't seem likely, again because it doesn't really feed > the plot (at least not in any way I can think of, though that doesn't > mean JKR couldn't have thought of a way!). KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yea, I agree, but this is just fun theory ideas that poped into my head....its a nice slow day....but hay it gave me a good idea for my fanfic..so Here's to wild theories. > > > 6. Add your own theory here. > > Julie: I do like the theory that Snape's son might be the half- > Blood prince. If Snape was involved with a muggle, that would > be sufficient reason to hide the resulting offspring from Voldy. > OTOH, we don't know if Snape is a fullblood, as JKR has > not be clear about that. Maybe Snape has muggle blood in > him and the pure-blood is the mother. As to why the boy > would show up now, well, he would be 16-17 yrs old by now, > assuming he was born at or before the point when Snape > left Voldy. That's an age where it becomes a little hard to > keep the reins tight, and when he might, in his mind and/or > the minds of others, be at an age where he can now protect > himself. KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yes, the only problem I keep running into is, I would think Snape would surly have his son at Hogwarts as a student, unless he is at another school for his protection. So it would be somewhat strange to consider the kid just showing up. But here is another idea. What if the child was born after the Voldy downfall, what if, during the time of peace Snape had a bit of..well...either fun...or just...well did something wreckless. We obviously know he can be wreckless, I mean, why would he follow the advice of Sirius if he was not a little wreckless, of course we have to wait and see what idea JKR comes up with to explain this...but going on that, maybe he just met a witch or muggle he liked durning the time of peace...had a one night stand, never saw her again, and then...suddenly here is a first year kid, looking exactly like a little Snape, and well, you know---this doesn't sound like a kids book anymore so--I digress...but it sure sounds like a good fanfic idea. > > WHY Dumbledore trusts Snape: > My biggest reason for liking the Snape's son theory, BTW, > is that it provides the PERFECT reason why Dumbledore trusts > Snape. If Dumbledore helped Snape hide the son from Voldy, > and DD is the only other one who knows the boy's whereabouts, > then he has every reason to be secure in Snape's loyalty. And > it doesn't even matter if Snape just changed sides to protect > his son, or if he changed his actual ideology after his son was > born. DD can be certain of Snape's loyalty either way! KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yes, I agree. Its hard to see what would make Snape change sides, what would cause him to move his loyalty, since, he seems quite loyal, for the most part, to Dumbledore. I know that some say he is not, but, its hard to see why he would do some of the things he has done in the book, if he was not loyal to Dumbledore. Though, their are so many reasons given by others for this change. It just seems to me a child would be a very good reason for that sort of loyalty. KarentheUnicorn From buffyeton at yahoo.com Mon May 16 03:47:07 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 03:47:07 -0000 Subject: Snape Theory Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128990 Am I the only person that thinks that Snape is really still a Death Eater, and isn't loyal to Dumbledore? I think JKR is setting up to make him truly evil. Either that or he is Dumbledore's nephew or something. He'd have to have an AMAZING reason for going good. Tamara --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "unicorn_72" wrote: > > > > Adding a new theory I just though of here first: > Also another idea I have just had is, based somewhat on the theory > of Snape being loyal to dumbledore, and somewhat on Snape having a > son that was killed, What if Snape, did something to try and Save > Neville/Harry/ or Both or the Potters or something for the order > that involved one of them (harry/neville), I don't have any idea > what, this is just an idea, but what if in doing so he got his own > child/family killed because of those actions. Could that not be a > very good reason why he might dislike/hate Harry and/or Neville so > much, because he sees them as the reason his child/family is dead. > Or, when he looks at them he might find it hard because his own > child would be their age...etc etc. > > Ok on with my reply. > > > > > > 1. He has a son, or..(haha) twins, we just dont' see the > > > family..basicly. > > Julie reply: Definitely possible. The question then would be "Why > don't > > we see or hear about his family?" > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > Maybe the reason is the child is in hiding, I guess this one could > fall under #4, so, my theories are multitasking. > > > > > 2. JKR is keeping us guessing and says daughter just so we will > > > continue to think Snape has a son. > > > Julie Reply: Possible. Or she could have just used "daughter" to > be literal, > > without intending to set up speculation. She does mislead to hide > > plot developments, but I'm not sure she misleads to deliberately > > send fans down merry paths that lead to nowhere. > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: I agree, but I'm sure she knows by saying > daughter, we are going to start going..hummmm...cause when I first > read it, I though, daughter? why didn't she say kids or children. > Actually I had never heard the Luna being Snapes child theory, I > only went to the website actually because on the Lexicon it listed > Sprout as having a birthday, and I clicked on the link..and stared > to explore. So Sprout's first name is...isan't that a city? > > > > > 4. His son is someone already at Hogwarts. Maybe Snape and his > wife > > > are divored LOL. or He doesn't want anyone to know because > Voldemort > > > would know and off his family..so they are in hiding. Can you > say > > > witness protection program. > > > > Julie: Possible. Though to hide his son, you'd think Snape would > have > > him stowed away somewhere not so close, and not right in the middle > > of the likely chaos that is coming (given Harry Potter is destined > to be > > right in the middle of things and is at Hogwarts). > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Maybe I should have made this one as two > theories, I was thinking maybe it is a child at hogwarts,and also at > the same time was thinking the kid might not be at hogwarts, and to > connect Theory #5 and add a new twist, maybe neither of them know > about each other..meh..well, if it was Severus Snape, instead of > Harry Potter books, I'd say it'd make a great story..anywayz. > > > > > > > 5. Ok, so what if he has a Son and he doesn't even know about > > > it..DOH. > > > > Julie: It doesn't seem likely, again because it doesn't really > feed > > the plot (at least not in any way I can think of, though that > doesn't > > mean JKR couldn't have thought of a way!). > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yea, I agree, but this is just fun theory > ideas that poped into my head....its a nice slow day....but hay it > gave me a good idea for my fanfic..so Here's to wild theories. > > > > > 6. Add your own theory here. > > > > Julie: I do like the theory that Snape's son might be the half- > > Blood prince. If Snape was involved with a muggle, that would > > be sufficient reason to hide the resulting offspring from Voldy. > > OTOH, we don't know if Snape is a fullblood, as JKR has > > not be clear about that. Maybe Snape has muggle blood in > > him and the pure-blood is the mother. As to why the boy > > would show up now, well, he would be 16-17 yrs old by now, > > assuming he was born at or before the point when Snape > > left Voldy. That's an age where it becomes a little hard to > > keep the reins tight, and when he might, in his mind and/or > > the minds of others, be at an age where he can now protect > > himself. > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: Yes, the only problem I keep running into > is, I would think Snape would surly have his son at Hogwarts as a > student, unless he is at another school for his protection. So it > would be somewhat strange to consider the kid just showing up. But > here is another idea. What if the child was born after the Voldy > downfall, what if, during the time of peace Snape had a bit > of..well...either fun...or just...well did something wreckless. We > obviously know he can be wreckless, I mean, why would he follow the > advice of Sirius if he was not a little wreckless, of course we have > to wait and see what idea JKR comes up with to explain this...but > going on that, maybe he just met a witch or muggle he liked durning > the time of peace...had a one night stand, never saw her again, and > then...suddenly here is a first year kid, looking exactly like a > little Snape, and well, you know---this doesn't sound like a kids > book anymore so--I digress...but it sure sounds like a good fanfic > idea. > > > > WHY Dumbledore trusts Snape: > > My biggest reason for liking the Snape's son theory, BTW, > > is that it provides the PERFECT reason why Dumbledore trusts > > Snape. If Dumbledore helped Snape hide the son from Voldy, > > and DD is the only other one who knows the boy's whereabouts, > > then he has every reason to be secure in Snape's loyalty. And > > it doesn't even matter if Snape just changed sides to protect > > his son, or if he changed his actual ideology after his son was > > born. DD can be certain of Snape's loyalty either way! > > > KarentheUnicorn's Reply: > Yes, I agree. Its hard to see what would make Snape change sides, > what would cause him to move his loyalty, since, he seems quite > loyal, for the most part, to Dumbledore. I know that some say he is > not, but, its hard to see why he would do some of the things he has > done in the book, if he was not loyal to Dumbledore. Though, their > are so many reasons given by others for this change. It just seems > to me a child would be a very good reason for that sort of loyalty. > > KarentheUnicorn From ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com Mon May 16 04:03:29 2005 From: ConstanceVigilance at gmail.com (Constance Vigilance) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 04:03:29 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128991 > Constance Vigilance: > > Kindness and generosity are powerful things in the House Elf world. We > do not know how similar Kreachur might be to Dobby. But I do think > that Hermione's kindness and generosity will rebound in a good way > with Kreachur. > > > a_svirn: > > Not likely, I am afraid. If we hate and despise someone we don't > react in a positive way to their displays of kindness and > generosity. CV: But I think that the Christmas blanket must have some feedback somehow. Are you saying that it will make thins worse? If I unexpectedly received a nice gift from somebody I thought I disliked, I might at first think it was some kind of trick, but I think over all, it might make me rethink my prejudice against the giver. Meta-thinkingly speaking, I think JKR must have had some reason for putting this event in the story. I still think Kreachur will become an ally. Maybe not right away, but I think he will come to Hermione's rescue at some time. We'll have to see who is right. From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Mon May 16 04:07:45 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 04:07:45 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > What is Lily's big secret? > She was blind. > > > This would be so amazing. Can anyone find canon to confirm or refute > this suggestion? Antosha: My daughter is listening to the US audio version of OotP, and in the chapter, "Snapes' Worst Memory," I just heard Jim Dale say that "Lily was *looking* at James." So I don't think that that very interesting theory holds water... From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon May 16 04:39:49 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 04:39:49 -0000 Subject: Snape Theory Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128993 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Am I the only person that thinks that Snape is really still a Death Eater, and isn't loyal to Dumbledore? I think JKR is setting up to make him truly evil. Either that or he is Dumbledore's nephew or something. He'd have to have an AMAZING reason for going good. Tonks: OK, you are making me do it. Snape has a son, born July 31st, same day and year as Harry and Neville. Born to a Muggle woman, his wife. Fool that he once was he fell in love with a.. one of *those* people. And either she took her son and is hiding somewhere in the Muggle world, or she was killed and the kid goes to Drumstrange where he will get a good education in the Dark Arts and not just DADA. LV does not know about the kid. Now do I believe what I just said. No. I don't think that Snape has any kids and he has never been married. But if you want a theory.. there ya go. ;-) Tonks_op From kempermentor at yahoo.com Mon May 16 05:05:34 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 05:05:34 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128994 > > Tonks: > > Maybe DD takes Kreacher to Hogwarts. If he is under service there > > cleaning the kitchen or something he can't get out to tell any > > secrets. Course he could have his memory altered too. Or maybe > > Mad-Eye took *care* of things and we will see ol' Kreacher on the > > wall. > > > > Tonks_op > > bboyminn: > > I've already commented several times that I think Dumbledore > 'dispatched', to put it politely, Kreacher and his head is now hanging > on the wall with his ancestors. Kreacher is just to volatile and > unstable to keep around. > ... I see > Kreacher as a dangerous and deadly problem that must be delt with. I > would love for Hermione to woo him with kindness, or Dumbledore to > turn him with logic, but I just don't see that happening. Kemper now: If Dumbledore is so free with killing, why wouldn't he just kill all the DE's that are in the 'public' like Lucius, Crabbe and Goyle Srs., et. al.? That would greatly decrease potential harm to the Order, and to the WW/RW public. But he's not free with killing, he's a man of compassion. He knows why Kreacher is the way he is. It's is because of this compassion that Dumbledore cannot kill. I do not believe that should some wizard come after a student with intent to kill that DD would kill that wizard. He would perform some other magic other than AK to halt the wizard. Again, Dumbledore is a man of compassion and not a man of vengence. Kemper From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon May 16 06:36:39 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 06:36:39 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128995 antoshachekhonte What is Lily's big secret? She was blind. antosha in the chapter, "Snapes' Worst Memory," I just heard Jim Dale say that "Lily was *looking* at James." So I don't think that that very interesting theory holds water... tinglinger however, check out jen reese' observation ..... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/104425 what is also interesting is that a sphynx cannot truly "see" but reflects what is projected (looking for support of this, but I do remember reading it in one of the posts here. I would appreciate a reference if anyone has heard this before...) tinglinger who is moderator of http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots where you can "see" a lot of interesting theories for yourself.... latest is on how book 6 just might begin and next post to be written by Mon nite on Hermione's parents From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Mon May 16 08:34:45 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:34:45 -0000 Subject: Dragon blood and Aunty Pet Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128996 SSSusan, Potioncat, Jen and others have been having excellent fun on the beach in several recent posts: the theory that baby Harry might have been protected by dragon's-blood ointment is strangely appealing, but doesn't seem to connect strongly enough to canon. Behold a convincing codecil! One of the uses for dragon's blood is as an oven cleaner ? right? As discovered by DD himself. And, who do we know who is obsessive about cleaning her house? Petunia, that's who! Now, how about DD making a small and simple magical arrangement such that whenever Petunia buys oven cleaner, it transmutes in the bottle and acquires a new ingredient which would renew the protection charm on Harry and 4 Privet Drive at least once a week in perpetuity. (And that stuff smells so chemical anyway that an extra spot of pong would make no difference at all.) Deborah, wearing her Domestic Goddess apron with pride From patientx3 at aol.com Mon May 16 08:40:16 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:40:16 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128997 bboyminn wrote: > I see > Kreacher as a dangerous and deadly problem that must be delt with. I > would love for Hermione to woo him with kindness, or Dumbledore to > turn him with logic, but I just don't see that happening. Kemper replied: >>If Dumbledore is so free with killing, why wouldn't he just kill all the DE's that are in the 'public' like Lucius, Crabbe and Goyle Srs., et. al.? That would greatly decrease potential harm to the Order, and to the WW/RW public. [snip] Again, Dumbledore is a man of compassion and not a man of vengence.<< Rebecca: I think you might have misunderstood what bboyminn was getting at. Kreacher was privy to secret Order business, including where their headquarters is, and which witches and wizards are members (including *Snape*). He remained inside Grimmauld Place (mostly) and kept the Order's secrets because Sirius told him to and the magic that binds him to his master keeps him from disobeying. That's all well and good, except that Sirius is dead now, and had no children (that we know of), and Kreacher refuses to serve Tonks, and therefore would go to the next family member which would be Bellatrix or Narcissa, and with Sirius dead, he could tell them whatever he wanted. He has already shown himself to be openly devious and against the Order's cause and helped to trick Harry into going to the DoM which would have gotten Harry killed if the plan worked correctly. My question is here, what other solution is there to the Kreacher dilemma other than killing him? Personally, I think they should have given him clothes when they first took over Grimmauld Place, he was never to be trusted (his reaction to that would have been his own, if it killed him it was not directly their fault, because that wasn't the intention...it may not have killed him anyway, he could have had the freedom to go off and replace Dobby at the Malfoy household). They can't do that now, its already too late. I hate to think of Dumbledore (or anyone in the Order) killing him, but they have to at this point. If they don't and word gets out about the location of the Order and the fact that Snape is a member of said Order (and anything else harmful that Kreacher picked up on), horrible things could happen that are worse than the life of one house-elf who already conspiraced to get people killed. Killing Kreacher is a lot different than just going on a rampage against known free DEs. Notice that Dumbledore *does* do something with them the moment he *can* (that is, he halts them in the DoM and gets them arrested after they committ crimes...he can't do anything if they haven't committed a crime). Kreacher is harder to deal with. For one thing, his offense was less clear-cut and harder to quantify and there's the sticky situation of the Order haboring Sirius, official channels aren't going to work here. It makes me wonder what power the owners of house-elfs have over the elves. Do they just have the power to fire them? What is up with the heads on the walls of Grimmauld Place? It was mentioned at some point in OotP that Kreacher wanted to end up on the wall, if that's true maybe they should fulfill his wish (cold, I know, but Dumbledore has painted himself into a corner with the Kreacher situation). What do you think Dumbledore will do with Kreacher? -Rebecca From patientx3 at aol.com Mon May 16 08:53:27 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 08:53:27 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128998 CV wrote: >>But I think that the Christmas blanket must have some feedback somehow. [snip] Meta-thinkingly speaking, I think JKR must have had some reason for putting this event in the story. << Rebecca: There was a reason to put this event into the story. It was calling attention to the fact that Kreacher was missing. Additionally, because of that, I don't think the blanket could have any affect on Kreacher's relationship with Hermione because he didn't even know where the blanket came from. It was just there. He may not have even noticed it. From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Mon May 16 09:31:49 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:31:49 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis and criminal hippogriffs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 128999 I just can't see JKR, or anyone with any knowledge of Latin, naming a character Felix Felicis. Not even if he (or she) is the new DADA teacher, the new MfM or Harry's new love. Yes, I know that our author has played games before - but flying in the face of Latin grammar? Gad, Madam, this is excessive! (As for what she is actually up to ... sorry, no idea! But it does have a historical ring, and might well refer to something in the past somehow, to when Hogwarts was newly founded and Latin was the language of education.) Funnily enough, I find some support for my position in Buckbeak's trial. In many respects the WW resembles the Middle Ages, and a lot of things that we take as figurative or cute, our medieval ancestors took to be literal truth. My memory's not at its all-time sharpest, but there was a king of France I think who heard that some dogs had attacked a lion (where could they have found one, I wonder?) and tried them for high treason because the lion was the king of beasts and the dogs were therefore his rebellious subjects. This was a real trial with a judge. Not that different from the Buckbeak hearing ... and they were found guilty and hanged. If there is a connection with the WW and the medieval criminal justice system, why not with the WW and a learned language? Deborah, something of an intellectual snob this morning From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon May 16 09:41:28 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 09:41:28 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "the_ghost_kitten" wrote: > I was wondering if anyone has ever had any thoughts on Voldemort's > wand and how he got it back after he was "destroyed" at Godric's > Hollow. I'm sorry if this has already been addressed - I did a search and couldn't find anything. > > If he became formless and was then forced to occupy the bodies of > small animals, surely he couldn't have carried it with him? And who > picked it up from the ruins of the Potter's house? > The only possibilities I can think of can easily be disproved - > Wormtail gave it back to him - this fails on several points. We do not know how Wormtail keeps his own wand (perhaps he doesn't - I wondered if he forced to acquire a new one once he goes back to Voldemort - perhaps he inherits Bertha Jorkins'.). How would Wormtail as a rat have carried either his or Voldemort's wand, even if he had been the one to retrieve the wand from the rubble of the house? I think that this is the easiest solution--Pettigrew accompanied Voldemort to Godric's Hollow (or was first on the scene after the blowup), and grabbed Ol' Snakeface's wand after he failed to kill Harry. As to where he kept it, well artifacts on an animagus's person seem to transform with the animagus--else McGonagall would appear naked in front of her third year Transfiguration class. I'll just pause here for a moment while you clear that picture from your mind.... It's not just clothing either--McGonagall's glasses also transform with her, showing up as markings around her eyes when she's in cat form. So it seems likely that a wand would transform as well. Maybe a more interesting question is: What happened to Peter's wand? He doesn't seem to have it at any point during GoF--he uses Voldy's wand to kill Cedric and Frank Bryce. I hope we're going to get more details of what happened that night in Godric's Hollow come July, Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon May 16 10:20:48 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 10:20:48 -0000 Subject: Lawyers in the Wizard world? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy: > I can totally see this type of career for Hermione. And I can see > her ushering more formal legal representatives into the WW -- people > who devote themselves soley or mainly to the law. I would argue with > the idea that the idea of lawyers (or more properly, the idea of fair > and equal laws) have not been breached. I think there are so many > examples of *unfair* legal practices within the WW (Sirius, Hagrid, > Umbridge's reign, etc.) and they have been so prominently raised by > JKR, I cannot imagine that she'll allow things to remain status quo. I can see her as a legal researcher, drawing up papers and contracts, researching precedents,etcetera, but for a real, bare-knuckles-in-the-courtroom barrister, I think Ron would be a better choice. Come to think of it, I bet they'd make a devastating legal team. Amiable Dorsai From kking0731 at gmail.com Mon May 16 12:46:00 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 12:46:00 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129002 Rebecca snipped: It makes me wonder what power the owners of house-elfs have over the elves. Do they just have the power to fire them? What is up with the heads on the walls of Grimmauld Place? It was mentioned at some point in OotP that Kreacher wanted to end up on the wall, if that's true maybe they should fulfill his wish (cold, I know, but Dumbledore has painted himself into a corner with the Kreacher situation). What do you think Dumbledore will do with Kreacher? Snow: Kreacher does have respect for Mrs. Black who is just a portrait, so I would think he would also be loyal to other Black portraits such as Phineas Nigellus. Phineas, when he learned of his great-great grandson's death, proceeded to Grimmald Place and never returned. I think that Phineas demanded Kreacher to do a bit more than iron his hands for the part he played in killing the last person who could carry on the Black family name. Kreacher wanted to have his head on the wall next to his ancestors anyway. I could see Phineas come back to his portrait in Dumbledore's office with news that Kreacher had made his house-elf family proud in the end by obeying the Black family orders one last time. Kreacher had his final punishment executed by himself to exonerate his previous deception to the family that he vowed to serve through orders from Phineas. Snow From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Mon May 16 13:22:53 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 13:22:53 -0000 Subject: Snape has a son? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129003 Ah-hah! We all know that Snape takes 'bitter and twisted' to hitherto unknown limits. We also know he was a Slytherin, with all that that implies about towering ego, family pride etc, and that he's extremely intelligent and highly skilled, though his interpersonal skills are low to rock-bottom. It must be assumed that the man has a hormone or two somewhere, and if he doesn't, what are Potions for? Assume a marriage. To a good, respectable pureblood woman who'll bring him his wand and slippers and say 'Yes, dear'. Assume a child. Easy, now, to assume the sense of expectation that such a child, of such parents, will create. Assume a Squib child. Et voila! Every reason for the personality defects to intensify, and the perfect reason not to have the child (OK, the son) enrolled at Daddy's school - or any other. So there goes the Durmstrang theory ... darn, I was getting quite fond of it ... Deborah, preening modestly, aware that her guess is as good as anyone's! From mz_annethrope at yahoo.com Mon May 16 06:57:14 2005 From: mz_annethrope at yahoo.com (mz_annethrope) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 06:57:14 -0000 Subject: Eileen's HBP Predictions (Sirius' motorcycle) In-Reply-To: <20050515095110.2354.qmail@web60215.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen Nicholson wrote: > 5.Sirius' motorcycle comes out of storage and gets an encore. It has got very friendly with the Weasley car. mz_annethrope: Hmmm. I once sent a post to another site suggesting the Sirius' motorcycle was lurking in the Forbidden Forest where it met Arthur's Ford Anglia, got hitched and was now raising a brood of tuk-tuks (three wheeled auto-rickshaws). I may have to cancel my prediction for HBP and vote for one of this brood instead. mz_annethrope From kempermentor at yahoo.com Mon May 16 15:16:42 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 15:16:42 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129005 > bboyminn wrote: > > I see > > Kreacher as a dangerous and deadly problem that must be delt with. I > > would love for Hermione to woo him with kindness, or Dumbledore to > > turn him with logic, but I just don't see that happening. > > Kemper replied: > >>If Dumbledore is so free with killing, why wouldn't he just kill all > the DE's that are in the 'public' like Lucius, Crabbe and Goyle Srs., > et. al.? That would greatly decrease potential harm to the Order, and > to the WW/RW public. [snip] Again, Dumbledore is a man of compassion > and not a man of vengence.<< > > Rebecca: > I think you might have misunderstood what bboyminn was getting at. > Kreacher was privy to secret Order business, Kemper now: No. I fully understood what bboyminn was getting at: Kreacher is a threat and should be eliminated (if he's not dead already by Dumbledore's wand or order). I can see where killing him would be easy and possibly necessary, what I don't see is Dumbledore making the killing of Kreacher okay which is what bboyminn was originally suggesting. I CAN see another member of the order execute Kreacher without DD's authority (Mad Eye and Snape come to mind and that would be darkly funny to see the two accidentally stumble upon each other at HQ to kill Kreacher.) Back to Rebecca: > Killing Kreacher is a lot different than just going on a rampage > against known free DEs. Notice that Dumbledore *does* do something > with them the moment he *can* (that is, he halts them in the DoM and > gets them arrested after they committ crimes...he can't do anything > if they haven't committed a crime). Kreacher is harder to deal with. Kemper again: Killing Kreacher is no different from killing known DEs. They are both dangerous to the Order, to the Wizarding World and to the Muggle World. I did notice that Dumbledore *does* something in the DoM. Notice that he didn't kill any of them though he could have and that they, the DEs, have committed heinous and, mostly, unpunished crimes for a long time; some of those crimes would result in government sanctioned executions in few (or one?) first world nations. Again, what I'm saying is that DD would never allow Kreacher's execution. If Kreacher is to be executed, it will be by another member behind DD's back. Hope my ideas are clearer, Kemper From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Mon May 16 17:19:21 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:19:21 -0000 Subject: Snape has a SON??? Theory Lists In-Reply-To: <78.731bdd48.2fb92b98@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129006 > WHY Dumbledore trusts Snape: > My biggest reason for liking the Snape's son theory, BTW, > is that it provides the PERFECT reason why Dumbledore trusts > Snape. If Dumbledore helped Snape hide the son from Voldy, > and DD is the only other one who knows the boy's whereabouts, > then he has every reason to be secure in Snape's loyalty. And > it doesn't even matter if Snape just changed sides to protect > his son, or if he changed his actual ideology after his son was > born. DD can be certain of Snape's loyalty either way! > > > Julie I'm at work and can't look for the info myself so help me out here. Didn't someone ask JKR once about teachers being married and she said that yes some are and that there would be more about that in the future? Casey From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 16 17:24:27 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:24:27 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129007 Well, I'm sure most know JKR has finally answered the FAQ poll winner. www.jkrowling.com It's quite lengthy, which is nice, but I'm struggling with the answer. If you've not yet read it, consider this all SPOILER SPACE. If you have read it, I'd be interested in what you think JKR is/isn't saying about Harry's gifts/talents/specialness, etc. I'm one of those who's always thought there was Something About Harry from the get-go, something well in *addition* to what Voldy transferred to him at GH. Yet JKR is telling us quite straightforwardly that Neville could have been The One had Voldy marked him instead, as the curse would have rebounded from him, too, if Alice or Frank had sacrificed him/herself for him. But OTOH JKR also acknowledges that Dumbledore "believes that Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar." Hmmmm. "DD believes." Not exactly an author giving confirmation that her character is correct, is it? Anyhoo... lots of good stuff there about "destiny" and Harry being "propelled into a terrifying position he might never have sought." See? There's that *might* again, which gets me back to whether there's Something About Harry. He might have sought this, even if he'd not been propelled into it by Voldy's actions. I sure welcome anyone else's thoughts on all of this. Siriusly Snapey Susan, who notes that JKR did use the word "murder" when describing what Voldy planned to do, but didn't use the phrase "AK" -- it's all "attack" (unless I missed something). From beckimajor at yahoo.com Mon May 16 16:41:04 2005 From: beckimajor at yahoo.com (thyladyanwyn) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 16:41:04 -0000 Subject: Why Did Voldemort Live? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129008 When Voldemort killed James and Lily, he didn't kill Harry. Instead, the curse backfired onto him. Why was he left alive after such a powerful curse? What about it left not only the scar on Harry's forehead, but didn't kill Voldemort? Voldemort said in the graveyard he did not know about the ancient magic that protected Harry at the time but will be prepared for it (the next time they meet?) If he was not prepared for the ancient magic and was acting with the same knowledge and curse, it seems to me that he would have died when it backfired and did not kill Harry. I think we will learn more in Books VI and VII. JKR herself has stated that we should be asking ourselves why Voldemort lived and not why Harry lived (or didn't die). She also stated that Harry's having Lily's eyes will be key information in the upcoming writings. I don't remember reading anything about Lily's eyes having any sort of power in the previous books though. ~~ Lady Anwyn From nrenka at yahoo.com Mon May 16 17:41:51 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:41:51 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yet JKR is telling us quite straightforwardly that Neville could > have been The One had Voldy marked him instead, as the curse would > have rebounded from him, too, if Alice or Frank had sacrificed > him/herself for him. This seems to kill the Lily was special/Lily did something special and specific Charms wise to defend Harry idea. It also kills the idea that only *maternal* love could do it, as Frank could have sacrificed himself as well. I find it refreshing that Harry's survival was not something utterly limitable only to him. > But OTOH JKR also acknowledges that Dumbledore "believes that > Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to topple him, for > Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his > scar." This is also reinforcement for the idea that JKR thinks of her characters in terms of *character*; that is to say, internal abilities and dispositions that take form when combined with intentions. Harry is not Neville, he does not think like him, does not want the same things, etc. This is a part of what makes Harry Harry, and these character traits/virtues are likely to play a large role in the denoument of his story. Yes indeedy, there is Something About Harry. > Siriusly Snapey Susan, who notes that JKR did use the word "murder" > when describing what Voldy planned to do, but didn't use the > phrase "AK" -- it's all "attack" (unless I missed something). So no possession theory, either...hmmm. All very interesting. -Nora gets back to work on things but has done a little dance of excitement around the desk From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon May 16 18:00:45 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:00:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kreacher In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4288DFCD.9000501@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129010 snow15145 wrote: > Kreacher does have respect for Mrs. Black who is just a portrait, so > I would think he would also be loyal to other Black portraits such as > Phineas Nigellus. Phineas, when he learned of his great-great > grandson's death, proceeded to Grimmald Place and never returned. I > think that Phineas demanded Kreacher to do a bit more than iron his > hands for the part he played in killing the last person who could > carry on the Black family name. Kreacher wanted to have his head on > the wall next to his ancestors anyway. > > I could see Phineas come back to his portrait in Dumbledore's office > with news that Kreacher had made his house-elf family proud in the > end by obeying the Black family orders one last time. Kreacher had > his final punishment executed by himself to exonerate his previous > deception to the family that he vowed to serve through orders from > Phineas. > > Snow > Snow, thats a really neat way to have Kreature offed without anyone living having to kill him. I can just picture ('scuse the pun) Phineas having a relentless 'persuasive talk' with K about his duty of punishment for Sirius's death. Kudos! digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 13/05/2005 From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon May 16 18:07:54 2005 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:07:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape has a son? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4288E17A.1090506@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129011 deborahhbbrd wrote: > > Assume a marriage. To a good, respectable pureblood woman who'll bring > him his wand and slippers and say 'Yes, dear'. Assume a child. Easy, > now, to assume the sense of expectation that such a child, of such > parents, will create. > > Assume a Squib child. > > Et voila! Every reason for the personality defects to intensify, and > the perfect reason not to have the child (OK, the son) enrolled at > Daddy's school - or any other. So there goes the Durmstrang theory > ... darn, I was getting quite fond of it ... > > Deborah, preening modestly, aware that her guess is as good as anyone's! > Another really neat theory! I like this a lot. I have always paired Snape off with Prof Sinistra, of whom we have heard so little we only figured out in GoF she was a witch! But that name of hers implies a dark side (yeah, I know it means 'left', and not 'right'!) and that would suit the way I imagine Snape..... So the child is an embarassment to Snape instead of the shining example of Slytherin he hoped for, and has been bundled off to be raised by a quiet squib family in a remote village. Meanwhile, Snape and Sinistra have remained married but live distinctly separate lives, having never recovered from the ego shock of their dissapointing offspring. LOL! digger -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.10 - Release Date: 13/05/2005 From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 16 18:04:46 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:04:46 -0000 Subject: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129012 I originally presented in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128717 the DRIBBLE SHADOWS theory, which argues that Snape, Hagrid & DD worked to create an ointment, made in part from dragon's blood, to serve as an additional protection for Harry, and that it was applied during the missing 24 hours after the Godric's Hollow attack. (Jen & Potioncat added additional features to the theory in that thread, especially TURBAN.) I can't help but remark that JKR's FAQ poll response "reinforces" DRIBBLE SHADOWS (well, okay, maybe not THAT strong a word, but at least it didn't sink it!) by emphasizing that it was Lily's willingness to sacrifice herself which saved Harry at Godric's Hollow. JKR remarks that if Voldy had gone after Neville, and Alice or Frank had sacrificed her/himself, it would have had the same effect of causing the curse to rebound. So this would, I think, support the notion that any additional protection (of the dragon-blood ointment variety, for instance :-)) would have reasonably been assumed to have been applied *after* GH -- such as during the missing 24 hours. Yippee for the DRIBBLE SHADOWS ship still casting about in the Bay! And, Neri, that Occam's Razor slice on my foot seems to be healing quite nicely now. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon May 16 18:16:48 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:16:48 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > This seems to kill the Lily was special/Lily did something special > and specific Charms wise to defend Harry idea. It also kills the > idea that only *maternal* love could do it, as Frank could have > sacrificed himself as well. I find it refreshing that Harry's > survival was not something utterly limitable only to him. GEO: However it doesn't kill the theories of why Voldemort didn't kill Lily considering that he could have killed her and then went for Harry and saved himself quite a bit of trouble in comparison to what actually happened where he told her to step aside and tried to kill Harry first. Still that does set us back to square one apparently. From lhuntley at fandm.edu Mon May 16 18:22:28 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:22:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <994a86aaa8a4e552e46dff583db15713@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 129014 SSSusan: >> Yet JKR is telling us quite straightforwardly that Neville could >> have been The One had Voldy marked him instead, as the curse would >> have rebounded from him, too, if Alice or Frank had sacrificed >> him/herself for him. Nora: > This seems to kill the Lily was special/Lily did something special > and specific Charms wise to defend Harry idea. Probably, but not necessarily. That is, Lily is almost certainly not "special" in and of herself, but she still may have *done* something special. Think about it, if someone (Lily, Dumbledore, etc.) came up with an if-all-else-fails Charm that one of the parents could use to save a threatened infant (even if it did require self-sacrifice), don't you think it would be shared with both families? So any of the parents could have saved their child, but Lily was the one who ended up doing it. A slight variation on this idea is that both infants had the Charm placed on them well *before* the night of the attack, and all that was left to do was activate it (with the sacrifice). I don't know, it sort of seems like a long shot, but it's still possible. SSSusan: >> But OTOH JKR also acknowledges that Dumbledore "believes that >> Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to topple him, for >> Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his >> scar." Nora: > This is also reinforcement for the idea that JKR thinks of her > characters in terms of *character*; that is to say, internal > abilities and dispositions that take form when combined with > intentions. Harry is not Neville, he does not think like him, does > not want the same things, etc. This is a part of what makes Harry > Harry, and these character traits/virtues are likely to play a large > role in the denoument of his story. > > Yes indeedy, there is Something About Harry. I suspect that SSSusan believes that the Something is a special power/amount of power that Harry has. You, on the other hand, seem to think the Something is more just a function of Harry's character, inner strength, etc. Personally, I like both ideas, and I'm interested in knowing what other listies might think. Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon May 16 18:29:21 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 11:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kreacher In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050516182922.50650.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129015 > Tonks: > > Maybe DD takes Kreacher to Hogwarts. If he is under service there > cleaning the kitchen or something he can't get out to tell any > secrets. Course he could have his memory altered too. Or maybe Mad- > Eye took *care* of things and we will see ol' Kreacher on the wall. > Actually, it would make a good resolution to a sticky problem if the Malfoys offed Kreacher because he now knew too much about their plan to entice Harry into the MoM. It would remove a problem for the Order at the same time as it establishes (again) how nasty the Malfoys are. Magda Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From Schlobin at aol.com Mon May 16 18:43:07 2005 From: Schlobin at aol.com (Schlobin at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:43:07 EDT Subject: for HP fanatics over 40 Message-ID: <104.61482d00.2fba43bb@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129016 Just wanted to remind folks (as a new book and new movie approach), that I have a small, fairly low traffic group for Harry Potter fanatics over _40....HPFGUover40 at yahoogroups.com_ (mailto:40....HPFGUover40 at yahoogroups.com) Susan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elfundeb at gmail.com Mon May 16 18:50:21 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 14:50:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80f25c3a05051611503c2912da@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129017 SSSusan wrote: > Yet JKR is telling us quite straightforwardly that Neville could have > been The One had Voldy marked him instead, as the curse would have > rebounded from him, too, if Alice or Frank had sacrificed him/herself > for him. > > But OTOH JKR also acknowledges that Dumbledore "believes that > Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to topple him, for > Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his > scar." > > Hmmmm. "DD believes." Not exactly an author giving confirmation > that her character is correct, is it? I find this answer absolutely fascinating, and anything but dull (as JKR implied it was). The key language, I think, is this: "Had Frank or Alice thrown themselves in front of Neville, however, the killing curse would have rebounded just as it did in Harry's case, and Neville would have been the one who survived with the lightning scar. What would this have meant? Would a Neville bearing the lightning scar have been as successful at evading Voldemort as Harry has been? Would Neville have had the qualities that have enabled Harry to remain strong and sane throughout all of his many ordeals? Although Dumbledore does not say as much, he does not believe so: he believes Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to be able to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar." So, Dumbledore "does not believe" that Neville has what it takes. Why not? How would Dumbledore know what qualities Neville *would have had* if his circumstances had been the same as Harry's? Neville didn't grow up in a cupboard without any knowledge of his heritage. If the little we've seen of Gran is any indication, she's been beating him over the head with his legacy -- and his failure to measure up to it -- from his earliest days. We cannot also rule out the possibility that Neville is suffering from a disability which masks his potential, and that nobody, including Dumbledore, is aware of it. In fact, my initial reaction to this answer was that it provides a big boost to the old Memory Charm theories, which have generally been out of favor since OOP was published. JKR appears to be using the multiple possibilities that the Prophecy presented as a tool to show us how our destinies are often out of our own control; she states: "Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices that had dramatic consequences." If Neville was disabled by a memory charm, this reinforces JKR's point about destiny, because it might mean that Neville did have what it takes after all, but that events have sent him down a very different path. Neville does share some of Harry's most important strengths. For example, like Harry, Neville does not shy away from confronting evil even when he thinks he cannot win. (Note that in PS/SS, when he tried to stop HRH from going after Quirrell, he did not have all the facts.) In addition, Neville's parents were able to survive against Voldemort. He doesn't appear to have inherited those genes, but they could simply be masked. Determined!Neville made great progress in OOP, but he still acts like he's fighting against a disability. (I know from personal experience how much memory deficiencies can influence one's self-confidence and overall personality and correspondingly others' perceptions of one's abilities.) Also, contrary to common perception, there are concrete examples of poor memory in OOP. For example, Neville cannot remember the name of the "Philosopher's Stone" -- he calls it the "Philological Stone." And in the DoM, there's an instance where Neville is unable to articulate a spell, something which could be the result of being unable to remember an appropriate spell at a necessary moment; this, of course, is one of Harry's greatest strengths enabling him to survive against Voldemort. The phrasing of JKR's answer signals to me Dumbledore lacks all the necessary information, and therefore he is wrong, wrong, wrong. > Siriusly Snapey Susan, who notes that JKR did use the word "murder" > when describing what Voldy planned to do, but didn't use the > phrase "AK" -- it's all "attack" (unless I missed something). See the portion I quoted above, which mentions the "killing curse". Debbie From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon May 16 18:53:04 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:53:04 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <994a86aaa8a4e552e46dff583db15713@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129018 SSSusan: >>> But OTOH JKR also acknowledges that Dumbledore "believes that Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar." <<< Nora: > > This is also reinforcement for the idea that JKR thinks of her > > characters in terms of *character*; that is to say, internal > > abilities and dispositions that take form when combined with > > intentions. Harry is not Neville, he does not think like him, > > does not want the same things, etc. This is a part of what makes > > Harry Harry, and these character traits/virtues are likely to > > play a large role in the denoument of his story. > > > > Yes indeedy, there is Something About Harry. Laura: > I suspect that SSSusan believes that the Something is a special > power/amount of power that Harry has. You, on the other hand, seem > to think the Something is more just a function of Harry's > character, inner strength, etc. Personally, I like both ideas, and > I'm interested in knowing what other listies might think. SSSusan: Using up my third post of the day to say, actually... I'm more in line with what Nora has said than I am with the idea that the Something About Harry has to do with *a* special power. He may very well have some special power or ability or talent -- in fact, I think he probably does -- but I've also always thought there was Something About Harry in terms of his inner character/strength/compass -- whatever phrase you want to attach to it. Or, as Nora eloquently put it, it's one's abilities & dispositions *combined* with one's intentions. It's the part of Harry that somehow knows he doesn't want to be like the Dursleys, who doesn't bully others even though he's been bullied himself. It's the part of Harry that reaches out to Ron on the train, buying all those sweets & sharing them and being a friend. It's the part of Harry that -- and, yes, I KNOW it's often reckless and ill-advised, but -- feels like he must DO something when others are in danger or perceived danger, like getting to the Stone, like rescuing Ginny, like going back for Hermione & Gabrielle, like going after Sirius. It's right intentions, it's bravery, it's watching out for the greater good, it's nobility -- heck, I've never been able to find one word for it, which is why I always latch onto the phrase Something About Harry. But I know that it does speak to character as Nora mentions it. This is not to say that Neville doesn't have any of these selfless or generous or noble traits as well, and we know that Neville is working on bravery, but Harry's got... more? is in better control of it? comes by it more NATURALLY? Ack, I'm not sure how to describe that either. Clearly, I need help on this. ;-) Siriusly Snapey Susan From eggplant107 at hotmail.com Mon May 16 17:52:46 2005 From: eggplant107 at hotmail.com (eggplant107) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:52:46 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back?/PS Twins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129019 I think I know how Voldemort got his old wand back; it must have been someplace thus: Step 1, Voldemort borrows a wand, any old wand. Step 2, Voldemort says "Acio Original Wand". Step 3, problem solved, Voldemort has his old wand back. Eggplant From williams.miranda at gmail.com Mon May 16 18:15:26 2005 From: williams.miranda at gmail.com (the_ghost_kitten) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 18:15:26 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back?/PS Twins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129020 Lady Anwyn wrote: "We don't know exactly when Wormtail transformed himself into a rat, so there is the possibility that he went to Godric's Hollow himself to retrieve Voldemort's wand and took it to the Riddle house before transforming himself." the_ghost_kitten: Didn't Wormtail transform into a rat as soon as he blasted the street apart and framed Sirius? I'd always assumed that was how he "vanished" - who's going to notice a rat running away when a whole street and a dozen people have just been blown up? I'd always imagined that Peter cut his finger off (so it could be found later, although how they knew it was his amongst all the bits of people is anyone's guess) as he blew up the street, then instantly transformed, leaving Sirius looking like the guilty party. But I could well be wrong! Lady Anwyn: "I would like to know where Nagina came from and whether she is an animagus. Is it possible that she is his long-lost twin sister?" the_ghost_kitten: Oooooh, I like that! Or his daughter... the_ghost_kitten From sophierom at yahoo.com Mon May 16 19:23:07 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:23:07 -0000 Subject: Why Did Voldemort Live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129021 "thyladyanwyn" wrote: > When Voldemort killed James and Lily, he didn't kill Harry. Instead, > the curse backfired onto him. Why was he left alive after such a > powerful curse? What about it left not only the scar on Harry's > forehead, but didn't kill Voldemort? Voldemort said in the graveyard > he did not know about the ancient magic that protected Harry at the > time but will be prepared for it (the next time they meet?) If he > was not prepared for the ancient magic and was acting with the same > knowledge and curse, it seems to me that he would have died when it > backfired and did not kill Harry. > > I think we will learn more in Books VI and VII. JKR herself has > stated that we should be asking ourselves why Voldemort lived and not > why Harry lived (or didn't die). Sophierom: Actually, Rowling didn't say that we should be asking "Why did Voldemort live?" Instead, she said that no one's ever asked her this question: "Why didn't Voldemort die?" (Edinburgh Book Festival transcript). This may seem like a nitpick on my part, but I think it's significant that in her discussion of this topic , she keeps talking about why Voldemort didn't die instead of talking about why Voldemort lived. (See the transcript for her full disucssion; here's a link: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80) I think Rowling believes there's a critical difference between physical death and spiritual death. In some ways, I think of Voldemort pre-OotP as existing in a similar sort of state as the Hogwarts' ghosts (though they're not nearly so powerful nor are they evil!). Something kept Sir Nicholas and the other ghosts from accepting death. Sir Nicholas says that it was fear that kept him from truly dying: ** "I was afraid of death," said Nick. "I chose to remain behind. I sometimes wonder whether I oughtn't to have ... Well, that is neither here nor there .... In fact, I am neither here nor there ..." He gave a small sad chuckle. "I know nothing of the secrets of death, Harry, for I chose my feeble imitation of life instead" (OotP, Am. ed., 861). ** I wonder if it wasn't fear in Voldemort's case, as well? In the exchange between Dumbledore and LV at the DoM, LV indicates that "there is nothing worse than death" (814). If death is Voldemort's greatest fear, then perhaps that will be the key to his destruction. In PoA, when Lupin and Harry are discussing the Dementors, the DADA professor alludes to them as the embodiment of fear (PoA, Am. ed., 155). Hmm, might the Dementors be used to destroy LV? The Dementor's Kiss, which leaves a living body souless, might very well fit Dumbledore's description of something "worse than death." I'm certain that others on this post have talked about the possible connections between death, dementors, ghosts, and LV more eloquently and thoroughly than I have in this post. Forgive me for not citing you ... I'm a bit on the run. But I did want to put in my two cents. All the best, Sophie From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Mon May 16 19:58:04 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 19:58:04 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129024 S P O I L E R S P A C E . . . E N O U G H ? SSSusan wrote: > Yet JKR is telling us quite straightforwardly that Neville could have been The One had Voldy marked him instead, as the curse would have rebounded from him, too, if Alice or Frank had sacrificed him/herself for him. > > But OTOH JKR also acknowledges that Dumbledore "believes that Voldemort did indeed choose the boy most likely to topple him, for Harry's survival has not depended wholly or even mainly upon his scar." > snip > > See? There's that *might* again, which gets me back to whether there's Something About Harry. He might have sought this, even if he'd not been propelled into it by Voldy's actions. > I sure welcome anyone else's thoughts on all of this. > Not much time, but some quick thoughts. It seems to me the question she's dancing around and not quite leading us towards is "Why did Voldy choose Harry over Neville?" If I remember aright, Voldy neatly skips this bit of the story in the graveyard and starts with the killing of James and Lily, and all I recall DD saying is something along the lines of "He saw himself in you before he'd ever seen you." But Voldy wouldn't have seen it as a choice between the two, would he? He'd have killed both boys, wouldn't he? Unless there was something else that we don't know, some other reason that made Harry more obviously the boy to whom the prophecy referred... DD is very evasive at the end of OotP: "It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring." DD never once says "*I* didn't know until the attack at Godric's Hollow that the prophecy definitely referred to you, Harry." So whatever it was that led Voldy to attack the Potters, did DD know it too? Did the Potters? More to the point, when will *Harry* find out? I do think it's a boring answer, but at least it's not another tantalising "hmmm, it might be important, but you'll just have to wait and see." Dungrollin Hoping (though not quite sure why) that Harry isn't the heir of Gryffindor, and James wasn't the Half-blood Prince. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 16 21:07:02 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:07:02 -0000 Subject: Predictions & PS on Sirius In-Reply-To: <20050515124350.15426.qmail@web26110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Hans Andr?a wrote: Hans: > PS > I'd just like to refer back to something Geoff said ages ago (well, > months actually). I have repeatedly stated that Sirius' friends' > I'm referring to JAMES Potter, PETER Pettigrew and Remus JOHN > Lupin. I've pointed out that the TRANSFIGURATION (know that word?) > of Jesus on the mount was watched by James, Peter and John. Geoff > said that those three are the most common names in England, and > that it was all coincidence. > I'd like to take this up again. Yes, I agree they probably are the > most common names. It just so happens that I was a teacher in the > years Sirius and his friends went to school. Certainly in every > class there were boys with those names, but I remember just as many > Scotts, Terrys, Patricks, Geoffs,Robins, Christophers, Gregs, > Michaels, Adams, Ians etc. Let's do some statistics and > probability. In a class of 40 boys, let's really exaggerate and > say the 10% of boys at the time of the Marauders were called Peter, > 10% John and 10% James (or Jim). That would actually be a very rare > occurrence, because in my experience there would never have been > 4 Peters, 4 Johns and 4 James's in a class of 40 boys ( I myself > was in a class of 54 boys for a number of years); 2 of each at the > most. But to prove my point let's take 10% each. In mathematical > terms, the probability of one person having three friends with > those three names would be one in 10 x 10 x 10 = 1000. That's the > maximum! It's more likely to be 20 x 20 x 20 = 6000. > So to say that it's a coincidence that Sirius' friends happened to > be the same as Jesus' 3 top disciples is possible, but the chances > are one in thousands. Geoff: Just in passing, your Maths is incorrect. The second probability should be 1 in 8000. With respect, the possibility in such a situation might be that someone would have more than one of each name as a friend. The problem with your approach is that you are not considering the fact that friendship is dictated by emotional feelings and not by the statistics of how many names you have in a group. You don't pick your friends' according to their names out of a hat at random.... As an example to demonstrate that fact: in the boys' club which my wife and I run at our Baptist church in Minehead, there is one Peter, one James and one John. Just to muddy the waters, they are friends with each other and there are other boys in the same little group which would therefore fit the parameters you have suggested. There is also a problem here for you that readers may not pick up on the fact that Lupin's second name is John because it is not used in canon. It was revealed by JKR in answer to a question at World Book Day in 2004. Hans: > In fact I think it's underestimating Jo's intelligence to say a > thing like that. Everything she does is so obviously deliberate, > so calculated (in the kindest meaning of the word) and so > intelligently put together, that I think this whole thing is no > coincidence at all, but deliberate. Jo is nailing her flag to the > mast. Geoff: Which raises the question of "which mast"? I incline more to the likelihood of a Christian one. Hans: > This is the same sort of thing as saying "Christian Rosycross" > doesn't prove the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosycross is > Christian, which I discussed in my last post. > I think the problem is that Sirius doesn't look and act like a > Christ figure, and so we dismiss the evidence. Geoff: I am concerned that you are confusing the issue by writing things which are seemingly contradictory. Way back in message 84481 (10th November 2003), writing as Ivan Vablatsky) you said: > A few months ago there was a big debate in this group about whether > Harry Potter is everyman or Christ. I say he is both! You are now suggesting that because of your theory about the Transfiguration parallel that Sirius is a Christ figure which is in conflict with your previous statement. Hans (as Ivan in 84481) > This is the new religion of the Age of Aquarius. Man will realise > that everyone is called to become a Son of God through the self- > sacrifice of the limited, earthly self, for the inner God Who lies > dormant in each of us. Geoff (replying in 84552): I feel that I can only disagree with your view on Harry Potter. He cannot be an everyman or Christ. No person can be a Christ figure except Christ himself, God in human form. We can be Christ-like; we are enjoined to imitate Christ ? read Philippians 2 for example. Christ is referred to as the Son of Man or the Son of God. We are told in John 1 that, speaking of Jesus, "to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become the children of God" ? not the same. We know from interviews etc. that Jo Rowling claims to be a Christian. I am not sure whether her membership of the Church of Scotland indicates nominal Christianity or real belief; that is not for me to judge. JKR has not written overtly as a Christian; neither did Tolkien, But, with a Christian background, I find that many of the items you detail as part of the "new religion of the Age of Aquarius" merely shadow central parts of Christian faith when that faith is really followed and not merely paid lip service. Can't JKR write her own story? Yes. Isn't it interesting though that JKR has made Harry the Seeker in the Quidditch team? That's the term often used in Christian circles for those who truly look for the right way to go in life. Harry may make many mistakes along the way, but he is anxious that the right is seen to prevail for the benefit of his friends, the Wizarding World and the future. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 16 21:12:33 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:12:33 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: Deborah: > Yes, I know that our author has played games before - but flying in > the face of Latin grammar? Gad, Madam, this is excessive! Geoff: It is grammatical: "Fortunate of fortunate" - but where might you use it? It could be a Latin expression of congratulations to someone who has just won the Lottery - "Say, Julius Augustus, are you the felix felicis today!" :-) Seriously, given and family names which are derived from something like that are sometimes strange if viewed from a grammatical standpoint. There again, following your point, JKR has flown in the face of accurate and grammatical Latin a number of times. Some of her spells leave a little bit to be desired linguistically. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon May 16 21:36:19 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:36:19 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" wrote: > > bboyminn wrote: > > > I see Kreacher as a dangerous and deadly problem that must be > > > delt with. I would love for Hermione to woo him with kindness, > > > or Dumbledore to turn him with logic, but I just don't see that > > > happening. > > Kemper replied: > > If Dumbledore is so free with killing, why wouldn't he just kill > > all the DE's that are in the 'public' like Lucius, Crabbe and > > Goyle Srs., et. al.? That would greatly decrease potential harm > > to the Order, and to the WW/RW public. [snip] Again, Dumbledore is > > a man of compassion and not a man of vengence.<< > > Rebecca: > > I think you might have misunderstood what bboyminn was getting at. > > Kreacher was privy to secret Order business, > Kemper now: > No. I fully understood what bboyminn was getting at: Kreacher is a > threat and should be eliminated .... I can see where killing him > would be easy and possibly necessary, what I don't see is Dumbledore > making the killing of Kreacher okay which is what bboyminn was > originally suggesting. bboyminn: I wasn't suggesting that it was 'OK', I was suggesting that it was a necessary evil. Kreacher is a dangerous, deadly, unstable, unpredictable creature. Further, he is spiteful, vengeful, disloyal, and malignant. If his blood doesn't flow then the blood of other more innocent people will. This is war; war by it's very nature is a failing of mankind. Men are force to kill or be kill, forced by dark and terrible circumstances to do things that go against their good nature, but do them they must. Kreacher is a dark, dangerous, and deadly liability, and any response must be in proportion to the risk he poses. Now we must ask, 'What are the possibilities to deal with such a deadly risk?'. I don't think giving him a Christmas blanket is going to quite be enough, Remember he got the blanket at Christmas and betrayed Sirius 6 month later, and appeared to do so with great glee. I don't think putting him to work at Hogwarts is going to solve the problem, it simply moves the problem to a different and in my opinion more dangerous location. So, what is the solution? It's easy to know the wrong solutions when you see them, but much harder to come up with the 'right' one. > Kemper continues: > > I CAN see another member of the order execute Kreacher without DD's > authority (Mad Eye and Snape come to mind ....) > bboyminn: I can accept that possibility too. As I said in my original post, I really don't want Dumbledore or anyone to kill Kreacher, but so far, few truly workable alternatives have been presented. I certainly don't envy the characters whose job it is to solve this problem. > Back to Rebecca: > > Killing Kreacher is a lot different than just going on a rampage > > against known free DEs. > Kemper again: > Killing Kreacher is no different from killing known DEs. They are > both dangerous to the Order, to the Wizarding World and to the > Muggle World. bboyminn: Yes, but there is a difference between a confessed traitor who must face field justice in war time, and suspected DE's; even when you suspect the DE's with an extremely high degree of certainty. Dumbledore does have some sense of justice, so I can't see him wandering the streets casually executing anyone and everyone he suspects is a DE. They must be proven guilty of a crime, and it is for society through the courts to determine the punishment. But Kreacher is know for an ablsolute fact to have betrayed his Master, to put the one person closest to his master in moral peril, and to have set into action a sequence of events that lead to his own Masters death. Kreacher is not 'suspected' of anything; his actions are a known fact. Perhaps, I have inadvertantly come up with the solution to Kreacher's actions. Now that Dumbledore is back in favor with the Ministry again, he can turn Kreacher over to the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures (or whatever it's called), and let them hand out the appropriate punishment. If they would kill Buckbeak for scratcing Draco's arm, then certainly Kreacher would get the chopping block. Unfortunatley, to turn Kreacher over the the Committee would mean revealing certain facts about Sirius and the last couple of years that would not reflect to well on the Order; all those questions about haboring a fugitive, the messy affair resolving the Black Estate, and actually proving Sirius is dead, no body after all. > Kemper continues: > > I did notice that Dumbledore *does* something in the DoM. Notice > that he didn't kill any of them though he could have and that they, > the DEs, have committed heinous and, mostly, unpunished crimes for a > long time; some of those crimes would result in government > sanctioned executions in few (or one?) first world nations. > > Again, what I'm saying is that DD would never allow Kreacher's > execution. If Kreacher is to be executed, it will be by another > member behind DD's back. > > Hope my ideas are clearer, > Kemper bboyminn: Again, regarding Dumbledore's treatment of the captured DE's, I don't think that Dumbledore see it as his job to be judge, jury, and executioner; he rightly turns the matter over to the authorities. The Kreacher situation can't, in my opinion, be put in the same class as the DE's. Kreacher is an admitted traitor, he is an on-going and immediate threat, and he must be dealt with, but HOW? I am only suggesting possible solutions, and the most obvious possible solution it for Dumbledore, or as you suggest, a member of the Order to 'dispatch' him with extreme prejudice. As I said in my original post, I don't want anyone, least of all Dumbledore to kill the elf, but I've yet to see a better solution. Other mentioned the possibility of Kreacher himself saving everyone the problem by taking matters into his own hands. That has some potential, even though it's still a dark and sad story. I this vein, I could see Kreacher as being very miserable with his existance. He continued to stay at Grimmauld Place because he had no choice, as long as Sirius Black lived, like it or not, he was bound to Sirius as the new patriarch of the House of Black; a situation that, given his loyalty to Mrs. Black, he hated greatly. Now that Sirius is dead, and the Black bloodline has ended, Kreacher is free; he's old, miserable, deranged, and unstable, but free. With that freedom, his obligations have ended, now bound to no one and nothing, he sought welcomed relief by joining his ancestors. A sad, but workable solution for all. Again, I'm open to any alternative solutions, it's just that, up until this most recent discussion, no one has presented any workable solutions given the true magnitude of the problem. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon May 16 21:39:56 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:39:56 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129028 In Dumbledore's speech at the end of OOTP, he says of Snape, "I thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your father. I was wrong." DD's speech is somewhat vague as to the time scale to which he is referring (e.g. when he talks about his mistakes does he mean just since the end of GoF or since Harry's birth or what?) and this part of the speech is no exception. The more I think of it, the vaguer it seems to get. I see three possibilities here, none of which are exclusive: 1) DD meant that he literally thought that Snape could, upon request during Harry's fifth year, put aside his feelings about James. If this is the case, it seems somewhat ... naive. Of course, that is what DD may be admitting when he talks about how he forgot that "some wounds run too deep for the healing." Still, has he been paying no attention AT ALL the last four and a half years? What, precisely, has he seen in Snape's attitude toward Harry that might lead him to believe that Snape is capable of such a change? Maybe, in fact, he is not as knowing as we have been led to believe. Harry says in PS/SS that Dumbledore "knows everything that goes on at Hogwarts." Well, that seems highly doubtful in light of some of his DADA teachers. Perhaps he just hasn't been paying as much attention as he should to this particular problem? 2) DD thought the experience of Occlumency lessons ITSELF would lead Snape to adopt a different attitude. This is possible if, in fact, Snape is ignorant of the conditions of Harry's upbringing, and especially if DD thought this knowledge would lead to some sympathy. Yet, if this is the case, why has DD not tried to correct Snape's misperceptions before now? Is it out of some kind of misguided wish to preserve Harry's privacy? Is it because he didn't know Snape HAD these misconceptions (hard to believe)? Or, once again, because he just wasn't paying attention? 3) The most interesting possibility is that perhaps DD was referring to a longer stretch of time. Perhaps he was trying to say, "I thought that AS PROFESSOR SNAPE GOT TO KNOW YOU OVER TIME he could overcome his feelings about your father." That is, he knew all along that Snape had bitter feelings about James, but he reasoned as Harry came to Hogwarts that once Snape got to know Harry and realized he was NOT like James a lot of those feelings could be allayed. Thus he is referring to all the last five years. This could explain something of DD's attitude even if he was paying attention. To wit: "I know Severus has problems with Harry, but he just needs time to get to know the boy and understand that Harry isn't at all like James. Once that sinks in he will be able to see past a lot of his bitterness." And when push came to shove during Harry's fifth year, DD might have thought, "Well, we're up against it now. Surely Severus has learned enough these past five years to know that Harry isn't James and to be able to do what has to be done." In this case, DD has underestimated the ability of Snape (or anyone, for that matter) to willfully block out information they don't want to acknowledge. Snape was convinced in advance Harry was like James, he in some sense WANTED Harry to be like James, and he wasn't going to acknowledge any evidence that Harry WAS NOT like James, no matter who asked it of him or how pressing the need. Of course, some combination of all or some of these is also possible. For instance DD might have thought that "Severus has had five years and he's not quite there yet but SURELY working with Harry will get him to understand the situation, finally." I think that the answer to this question (if it is ever revealed, and it may not be) would say a great deal about Dumbledore and his attitude toward both Harry and Snape. Anyone else have any thoughts? Lupinlore From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 16 21:50:56 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 21:50:56 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129029 > bboyminn: > > > Your idea of Dumbledore taking Kreacher on at Hogwart is interesting, > but I do see a few /logistical/ problems. First the wizard/elf > relationship is not like true slavery. Elves are not captured in the > wild and forced against their will into the service of their Master; > Elves willingly enter service and eagerly serve. > a_svirn: Where did you find this information? Certainly not in the HP books where such terms as "enslavement" and "slaves" are freely used. As for Kreacher I distinctly remember DD at the end of OotP saying that he was "enslaved" by the Black family. That doesn't mean that he was captured in the wild, but neither has it implied a voluntary service. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 16 22:18:07 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:18:07 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129030 > bboyminn: > > I wasn't suggesting that it was 'OK', I was suggesting that it was a > necessary evil. Kreacher is a dangerous, deadly, unstable, > unpredictable creature. Further, he is spiteful, vengeful, disloyal, > and malignant. a_svirn: Except that he IS loyal, just not to Sirius. From Kreacher's point of view it is Sirius who's betrayed his Blood and abjured his rightful inheritance. Kreacher on the contrary is loyal to the House of Black to a fault and against all odds. Odds being his formal enslavement to the last Black. He certainly didn't "agree" to serve Sirius or pledge him his loyalty. > bboyminn: > I don't think giving him a Christmas blanket is going to quite be > enough, Remember he got the blanket at Christmas and betrayed Sirius 6 > month later, and appeared to do so with great glee. a_svirn: Well, the blanket wasn't actually from Sirius, was it? As far as Sirius was concerned the best way Kreacher could have served him was to die quietly in the attic. And I must say I find his attitude much more honourable than Hermione's hypocrisy. > bboyminn: > > Yes, but there is a difference between a confessed traitor who must > face field justice in war time, and suspected DE's; even when you > suspect the DE's with an extremely high degree of certainty. a_svirn: All DE we know about are confirmed, not suspected. In fact some of them have even been convicted already. Kreacher on the other hand never betrayed anyone, because he never pretended to be loyal to Sirius and the Order. Quite the reverse in fact. It was Sirius's own folly that he underestimated Kreacher as an adversary. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 16 22:38:26 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 22:38:26 -0000 Subject: Draco Malfoy and the Gothic Manor - Common Law In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Constance Vigilance" wrote: > > Constance Vigilance: > > > > Kindness and generosity are powerful things in the House Elf > world. We > > do not know how similar Kreachur might be to Dobby. But I do think > > that Hermione's kindness and generosity will rebound in a good way > > with Kreachur. > > > > > > a_svirn: > > > > Not likely, I am afraid. If we hate and despise someone we don't > > react in a positive way to their displays of kindness and > > generosity. > > CV: > > But I think that the Christmas blanket must have some feedback > somehow. Are you saying that it will make thins worse? If I > unexpectedly received a nice gift from somebody I thought I > disliked, I might at first think it was some kind of trick, but I > think over all, it might make me rethink my prejudice against the > giver. Meta-thinkingly speaking, I think JKR must have had some > reason for putting this event in the story. I still think Kreachur > will become an ally. Maybe not right away, but I think he will come > to Hermione's rescue at some time. We'll have to see who is right. a_svirn: Depends on the circumstances. If this somebody comes to your house uninvited and makes him- or herself at home, and then proceeds to destroy methodically everything you hold dear? And when you try and fail to stop them, they blithely explain your attempts of resistance by your supposed infirmity? And when your frustration and helplessness betrays you into fits of rage they chalk it on your hypothetical senility? And when the only mementoes of the happier days you've managed to salvage is found and destroyed they present you with a BLANCKET instead? Yes, I think it will make things worse. It will be the final humiliation. a_svirn a_svirn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon May 16 23:01:54 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:01:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(was:Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129032 >>a_svirn: >As far as Sirius was concerned the best way Kreacher could have served him was to die quietly in the attic. And I must say I find his attitude much more honourable than Hermione's hypocrisy.< Betsy: Hermione's hypocrisy? Huh? When was, or how was, Hermione ever hypocritical when it came to Kreacher? I thought she was actually really good at sticking to her principles in the face of some rather ugly hostility. Betsy From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 16 23:06:29 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:06:29 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129033 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > In Dumbledore's speech at the end of OOTP, he says of Snape, "I > thought Professor Snape could overcome his feelings about your > father. I was wrong." > > DD's speech is somewhat vague as to the time scale to which he is > referring (e.g. when he talks about his mistakes does he mean just > since the end of GoF or since Harry's birth or what?) and this part > of the speech is no exception. The more I think of it, the vaguer > it seems to get. I always sort of assumed that DD meant something like "I thought Professor Snape could muster his feelings about your father, so that they wouldn't get in the way of business". In other words, DD though him capable to adapt the attitude Snape himself advocated during his Occlumency lessons. a_svirn From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon May 16 23:22:10 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:22:10 -0000 Subject: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129034 SSSusan wrote: > I originally presented in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128717 > the DRIBBLE SHADOWS theory, which argues that Snape, Hagrid & DD > worked to create an ointment, made in part from dragon's blood, to > serve as an additional protection for Harry, and that it was applied > during the missing 24 hours after the Godric's Hollow attack. (Jen & > Potioncat added additional features to the theory in that thread, > especially TURBAN.) > > I can't help but remark that JKR's FAQ poll response "reinforces" > DRIBBLE SHADOWS (well, okay, maybe not THAT strong a word, but at > least it didn't sink it!) by emphasizing that it was Lily's > willingness to sacrifice herself which saved Harry at Godric's > Hollow. JKR remarks that if Voldy had gone after Neville, and Alice > or Frank had sacrificed her/himself, it would have had the same > effect of causing the curse to rebound. > > So this would, I think, support the notion that any additional > protection (of the dragon-blood ointment variety, for instance :-)) > would have reasonably been assumed to have been applied *after* GH -- > such as during the missing 24 hours. > > Yippee for the DRIBBLE SHADOWS ship still casting about in the Bay! > And, Neri, that Occam's Razor slice on my foot seems to be healing > quite nicely now. ;-) Neri: I'm glad to hear about that :-) However, I have to admit that, despite reading the explanation above three times, I completely failed to understand why the new FAQ supports DRIBBLE SHADOW in any way. Could you draw a diagram for me or something? I also still don't see why we need the additional ointment protection. Lily's sacrifice was what saved Harry at GH (as JKR confirmed again) and it's also what saved Harry from Quirrellmort's touch in SS/PS (according to DD). So when did we see the ointment protection in action? When did it save Harry's life? This is the part that I fail to understand. I think I have to warn you that from my personal experience, keeping your own ship is not all that it's cracked to be. I know, it sounds very cool to cruse TBAY at weekends in your privet yacht and all the newbies admiring you from the dock, but what's they don't tell you is that it's also a lot of tedious maintenance work. These damn things tend to leak like sieves, and good ship-elves are very hard to come by. It might be easier if you have a loyal crew, but OTOH I suspect the arguments among the crewmembers might offset the advantage of the additional work force . But I certainly hope you'll enjoy being a captain, and anyway, considering the weather prediction, in two months or so perhaps we won't have ships to worry about. Captain Neri of the VASSAL salutes to Captain SSSusan of the DRIBBLE SHADOWS. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 16 23:56:15 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:56:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(was:Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>a_svirn: > > >As far as Sirius was concerned the best way Kreacher could have > served him was to die quietly in the attic. And I must say I find his > attitude much more honourable than Hermione's hypocrisy.< > > > Betsy: > Hermione's hypocrisy? Huh? When was, or how was, Hermione ever > hypocritical when it came to Kreacher? I thought she was actually > really good at sticking to her principles in the face of some rather > ugly hostility. > > Betsy For one thing she wasn't quite sticking to her principals, since she accepted the necessity of his staying a slave. Not that I hold it against her ? the Order is fighting a war after all. I do think, though, that this being the case she could have the decency to leave Kreacher well alone and not to pester him with protestations of friendship and unwanted gifts. But I agree that "principles" is an operative word here. Hermione is not really kind to Kreacher. Still less she respects his feelings. She has a certain political agenda and is hell-bent on carrying it out. She has tasks formulated for everyone involved. Sirius and others for instance should be "kind" to Kreacher and treat him with friendliness, though in reality he is nothing more than a slave or ? one might say -- a prisoner of war. In her eagerness, however, she simply refuses to see anything that doesn't fit her theory. For example, Kreacher's fierce loyalty to the "Noble House of Black" and everything it represents. Or his deliberate sabotage of "purgings" they performed for the sake of the Order. She says that his old age and infirmity would surely account for it. His frustration and obvious hostility she prefers to explain by his supposed senility. In doing this she is, as Fred very justly pointed out, "kidding herself". Now why such an astute and sensible girl would be so blind? The answer is simple ? she doesn't give a damn about Kreacher. She is neither interested in him, nor does she even see him as a person. He is just a point in her agenda, or an object of her crusade. I find this attitude hypocritical. I think that Sirius's hatred is more honest. He might not approve or empathize with Kreacher's feelings but he, at least, acknowledges their existence. Hermione only acknowledges what he SHOULD feel according to her theories and simply ignores the rest. a_svirn From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue May 17 00:00:36 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 00:00:36 -0000 Subject: Democracy in Wizard world? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129036 As it doesn't seem as if the Minister of Magic is elected, do you think that any high level wizards, the ones who make decisions for the whole of wizard Britain, are elected? Tamara From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue May 17 01:00:07 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:00:07 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > I always sort of assumed that DD meant something like "I thought > Professor Snape could muster his feelings about your father, so that > they wouldn't get in the way of business". In other words, DD though > him capable to adapt the attitude Snape himself advocated during his > Occlumency lessons. > > a_svirn Yeah, I initially thought that too, svirn. It accords with Option #1 in the original post (at least I think it does). But the more I think of it the less sense it seems to make. I mean, what in the world (wizarding or otherwise) would lead DD to think Snape could do such a thing on demand? You have a man who rages, smolders, and all but goes into convulsions over Harry and his activities, yet you think that just because it's an emergency and you ask it of him he's going to be able to put all that aside and work with the boy in a very "intimate" activity like Occlumency training? That is an extraordinarily...well...ignorant view of human nature, even for an elderly man who has perhaps too positive a view of the world and who admits to making mistakes. Of course, maybe DD really hasn't been paying very close attention the last few years, but then what do we make of the statements about him watching Harry carefully and knowing what goes on at Hogwarts (although we know, admittedly, that the latter has to be an exaggeration). I'm not trying to be difficult. I'm just genuinely puzzled and wonder what other people think. Lupinlore From musicofsilence at hotmail.com Tue May 17 01:43:06 2005 From: musicofsilence at hotmail.com (lifeavantgarde) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 01:43:06 -0000 Subject: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129038 J K R I S A G O D D E S S . . . . I don't know about anyone else, but while reading through JKR's answer to the FAQ poll, I nearly went into apoplectic fits at some of her very curious word choices: "[...] he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One ? to give him tools no other wizard possessed ? the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind." I do find the use of the capitalized words "Chosen One" along with the word "anoint" highly interesting. This to me (along with some word choices which she uses later on in the answer) to draw very very strong royal connotations. Who gets anointed to a chosen position? Think of the Old Testament story of Samuel anointing David to become king of Israel (not that I'm making Voldemort Samuel, here...it's the action of anointing as applicable to kingship which is the important part of this example). There are many other examples of this terminology in the Old Testament, and a cursory glance at a Google search of the words "anoint royal king" turn up stories from many different mythological backgrounds. We know that JKR is very careful in her word choices -- I do not think this to be a colloquial coincidence. And, this is not the first time in this answer where she'll refer to Harry in royal terms. Next "to give him tools no other wizard possessed ? the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind." JKR implies that the *only* powers which Voldemort has transferred to Harry are his scar and the mental link. This seems to imply that all of Harry's magical strengths and predilections are distinctly *his*... he's not a Squib, he's not an average wizard made great by Voldemort, he's truly great on his own. (And incidentally, does this mean that Dumbledore's speculation that Parselmouth was a transferred trait is wrong? Was Harry really born a Parselmouth on his own?) Then "So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King?" EXCUSE ME!? OK...I had to read this sentence about four times before being sure that I would be able to read the rest without needing smelling salts. You DO NOT just drop a (CAPITALIZED!) directly royal term when the main question we're all asking is "Who is the Half- Blood Prince?" This, I feel, is the second time she's referred to Harry in royal terms. If Neville was nearly King, than that actually *makes* Harry KING. Of what? Why use this bizarre phrase? One can infer that this kingship is directly related to the being marked as equal by Voldemort -- but king? King has some distinctly positive connotations, while I would venture to say that Harry is hardly the king of anything, even metaphorically. If we interpret the previous quote to mean that Harry already had all of his magical predilections before the attack, then the attack certainly couldn't have made him King in the sense of being a powerful wizard. Why on *earth* is she using this very royal term to describe Harry -- especially while we've got our eyes peeled for any mentions of a Half-Blood Prince? Again "It remains to be seen how he will feel if he ever finds out how close he came to being the Chosen One." Capitalized "Chosen One" again...it feels like she's making a point here, eh? Finally "If neither boy was 'pre-ordained' before Voldemort's attack to become his possible vanquisher, then the prophecy (like the one the witches make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had not been made." There are two things in this section that make me very alert 1) The use of the word choice "pre-ordained." Ordained is another word which may have royal connotations: a king may be ordained to his position. This terminology is not farfetched -- absolute monarchs may be divinely-ordained, in a royal system of primogeniture, the eldest son is ordained king. Royal connotations (or at the very least, measures of authority) are definitely attached to "ordaining." 2) In...err.. that Scottish play ;o) the prophecy which the three (weird) sisters make to Macbeth involves him having to off a King to become a King. The entire play involves his ascent to the highest position of the land. Voldemort as Macbeth? Hearing a prophecy regarding his rise to absolute power and attempting to follow it through? I don't deny that the point JKR was trying to make here was the nature of "fulfilling" a prophecy, but the reference to such a prophecy is quite intriguing. Any takes on this? I feel the royal connotations are *quite* heavy in this answer. Harry as King? Who's the prince? Stefanie, who is going a bit mad, yes. From Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 02:07:59 2005 From: Unicorn_72 at yahoo.com (unicorn_72) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 02:07:59 -0000 Subject: Snape Theory Lists In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129039 "Tamara" wrote: > Am I the only person that thinks that Snape is really still a Death > Eater, and isn't loyal to Dumbledore? I think JKR is setting up to > make him truly evil. Either that or he is Dumbledore's nephew or > something. He'd have to have an AMAZING reason for going good. > > Tamara > KarentheUnicorn's Long Reply: NOPE, you are not the only one Tamara, like I said, all the stuff is just theory and ideas, None of us know where Snape's loyalty is really. JKR has also stated that Snape is a Horrible person, so, I don't see how she could be setting us up to all of a sudden turn him evil and trick us, cause, that generally would not be a trick would it if she outright says he is horrible, but their has also been a debate over if horrible means evil, or is he just a sarcastic mean teacher...does that actually mean evil...meh, I don't know. We really have not seen Snape outside of the School and Order setting to know exactly how he reacts in normal situations. We have no idea what his life is outside of Hogwarts, but, neither do we know what the other Teachers lives are outside of Hogwarts. But, obviously this thread is about Snape..so I suppose we should stick to the subject at hand. Besides, We are just speculating on the use of the word daughter really, and why she would not say children. I suppose I gave my opinion on Snape and should not have said he was loyal to DD as if it were fact and everyone knows it, since it is my opinion. I have considered Snape loyal to Dumbledore from what I've read in the books. I really didn't have an opinion on him for a long time, till I joined this group, and have sort of become a Snape defender. Some of the things he has done just don't seem like they are helping Voldemort, but perhaps I have read the book wrong. I have also said that I though he might be loyal to himself and not really truly loyal to Dumbledore or Voldemort, and in a lot of ways, I consider this may very well be the case. Snape's actions have been debated quite a lot in the yahoo group, and I suppose it just depends on how you look at it and how you might see a situation, that will be what forms your opinion on the character of Snape. I suspect there are just as many haters of Snape as their are supporters. I find myself with many questions, just like everyone else. If Snape is Horrible why is he? Do we ask why Voldemort is evil? Do we as why Draco is a little crappy you know what? of course, but it might not seem quite as often as we see Snape questioned of his goodness or badness. Most rational people want to find a logical reason for a character being horrible. Likewise I suppose we want to find a logical reason why Snape would be loyal to Dumbledore, why he dislikes kids but is a teacher, why why why. I think that a child (Snape Child) Is a very good theory as to why Snape might be loyal to dumbledore. Dumbledore has defended Snape a lot in the books, trying to make Harry give him respect by saying Professor. Explaining in a pensive scene to the court that Snape is no more a death eater than he is. It seems easy to say, Dumbledore is being kind, he is just a nice old man that is mistaken in Snape, and that DD can make mistakes. I will be the first to say, yes, DD can make mistakes. But, for now I will have to consider Snape loyal till JKR snatches off my rose colored glasses. Sooo,much like Star Wars, Our Question is; will Snape choose the Dark Side or the Light....and JKR said we were watching to much StarWars...baaaa...if she knocks off Snape or Dumbledore in the next book..I'm crying fowl to that statment..it will be like when Darth Vader killed OB1...anywayz. KarentheUnicorn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 02:20:47 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 02:20:47 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back? In-Reply-To: <014301c5598e$78050470$3936ff04@self6e4d6e0c5b> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129040 Tiffany wrote: > My best guess is that Petegrew picked it up and then took off before Sirius found the Potters. I can't imagine one of the order being careless enough to give it bakc to a death eater, or leave it lying around if they were first to discover the potters. i think that wizards do retain their wands when they transorm into animals, so maybe Wormtail's been caryying Voldemort's in a pocket all this time. > My other best guess is that DD or the ministry had it stored somewhere and Wormtail or Crouch JR disguised as Moody stole it. Carol responds: I agree that Pettigrew found and hid Voldemort's wand before Sirius or Hagrid arrived at Godric's Hollow. I believe that JKR herself says exactly this in one of her interviews (which can be looked up using the Quotes section of the Lexicon). However, I don't think Pettigrew kept either Voldemort's wand or his own. He certainly didn't have a wand with him when Black and Lupin forced him to resume his human shape in the Shrieking Shack. I think he had only his own wand with him when he and Sirius Black had their confrontation and that he dropped his wand in the street--part of the evidence of his death. If neither the wand nor bits of it had been found, his disappearance might have been questioned, at least by Dumbledore and other thinking persons. The wand lying in the street along with his finger and bloody robes would have been very convincing evidence of his death. (Don't ask me how the robes got there, but Fudge says they did. I think it was probably a cloak--I doubt that he was naked when he transformed.) As for Voldemort's wand, Pettigrew didn't have it with him in the Shrieking Shack, but he certainly knew where it was, and he returned it to Voldemort after finding him possessing rats and other small creatures in Albania. (I think Pettigrew was in rat form when he found him but switched to human form to apparate back to England, find the wand, and return to Voldemort.) That, at least, is how I make sense of the situation. It's been discussed on this board several times before and you *can* find it if you're willing to spend hours struggling with Yahoo!mort (our very inadequate search engine). Not wanting to spend that kind of time, I just repeated ideas I've already expressed rather than hunting up old posts. Carol From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 03:09:03 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 03:09:03 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's Wand - how did he get it back?/PS Twins? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129041 Lady Anwyn wrote: > "We don't know exactly when Wormtail transformed himself into a rat, > so there is the possibility that he went to Godric's Hollow himself > to retrieve Voldemort's wand and took it to the Riddle house before > transforming himself." > > the_ghost_kitten responded: > Didn't Wormtail transform into a rat as soon as he blasted the > street apart and framed Sirius? I'd always assumed that was how > he "vanished" - who's going to notice a rat running away when a > whole street and a dozen people have just been blown up? I'd always > imagined that Peter cut his finger off (so it could be found later, > although how they knew it was his amongst all the bits of people is > anyone's guess) as he blew up the street, then instantly > transformed, leaving Sirius looking like the guilty party. But I > could well be wrong! Carol adds: I think you're right, ghost-kitten. He must have hidden Voldemort's wand *before* the confrontation with Sirius. But I don't think he could have hidden it at the Riddle House. Even if it wasn't occupied at that time, how could Wormtail have known about it? He was a twenty-two year old spy, not one of Voldemort's most trusted Death Eaters (if indeed he trusted any of them enough to tell them of his true identity). He certainly wouldn't have told Wormtail at that time. But after Wormtail returned to him fourteen years later (and, presumably, performed the spell that turned him into Baby!mort), both he and Wormtail, who was presumed dead and couldn't allow himself to be recognized, needed a place to hide until they could perform the resurrection spell. But the Riddle House, though uninhabited, was still under the care of Frank Bryce, so Wormtail must have apparated there with Baby!mort under his cloak. (Maybe they Accio'd Nagini?) Anyway, I would bet my wand that Pettigrew didn't hide Voldemort's wand at the Riddle House after the disaster at Godric's Hollow. He did, however, hide it somewhere, and it was definitely Pettigrew who returned the wand to Voldemort. Pettigrew's own wand was apparently lost. I like the idea one of you suggested about his taking Bertha's. (Not sure how well it would suit him, but someone else's wand is better than none.) Carol, who still wants to know how the Azkaban Death Eaters got the wands they used in the DoM From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 17 03:15:47 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 03:15:47 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Well, I'm sure most know JKR has finally answered the FAQ poll winner. > > www.jkrowling.com > > It's quite lengthy, which is nice, but I'm struggling with the > answer. If you've not yet read it, consider this all SPOILER SPACE. SPOILER WARNING: If you haven't read it yet stop now. Spoiler warning.. Tonks here: JKR says that Harry is "anointed" by LV as the "Chosen One". Interesting choice of words. But I will skip that for now. What disturbs me is this: "So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King?" And just *what* does *that* mean!!! She already told us that Harry is not the Half-Blood prince, but *now* she says that Neville was so nearly King!!! I just can't stand it. More aside Dobby while I bang my head against the wall!!! (Screaming now) IF Neville was almost King, doesn't that mean that Harry is going to be KING and that should make him a prince!!! And a Half-Blood one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is just toying with us this isn't even nice anymore. I am going to bed. In the morning I will just get up and go plant my flower garden, where a spade is still a spade. Oh, I just can't stand it. First Snape's *son* and now this!!! By right Harry should be the Half-Blood Prince.. I just flat out give up!!!! Tonks_op {;-( Anybody got an aspirin? From kking0731 at gmail.com Tue May 17 03:27:05 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 03:27:05 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129043 Dungrollin: Not much time, but some quick thoughts. It seems to me the question she's dancing around and not quite leading us towards is "Why did Voldy choose Harry over Neville?" If I remember aright, Voldy neatly skips this bit of the story in the graveyard and starts with the killing of James and Lily, and all I recall DD saying is something along the lines of "He saw himself in you before he'd ever seen you." But Voldy wouldn't have seen it as a choice between the two, would he? He'd have killed both boys, wouldn't he? Unless there was something else that we don't know, some other reason that made Harry more obviously the boy to whom the prophecy referred... DD is very evasive at the end of OotP: "It seemed plain to the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy that Voldemort could only have tried to kill you because he knew you to be the one to whom Sybill was referring." DD never once says "*I* didn't know until the attack at Godric's Hollow that the prophecy definitely referred to you, Harry." So whatever it was that led Voldy to attack the Potters, did DD know it too? Did the Potters? More to the point, when will *Harry* find out? I do think it's a boring answer, but at least it's not another tantalising "hmmm, it might be important, but you'll just have to wait and see." Dungrollin Hoping (though not quite sure why) that Harry isn't the heir of Gryffindor, and James wasn't the Half-blood Prince. Snow: Loved the quick take on JKR's long awaited answer to the Neville aspect of the prophecy. My own immediate response was Harry was BORN with The Power to vanquish the Dark Lord. Voldemort chose poorly who he reckoned was the biggest threat when he chose Harry and actually gave Harry an advantage. Voldemort chose Harry because he saw the likeness of "himself and all he felt" in Harry; muggle parentage, grew up with muggles. If Voldemort were to have chosen Neville, would Harry not have had The Power to vanquish the Dark Lord? I would say no because Harry was born with that specific power. The way that I read JKR's answer was that, Harry was still capable of vanquishing the Dark Lord even if Neville had been chosen but would not have had the marking-him-as-his-equal magical powers that had been thrust upon him when the killing curse backfired. Harry's magical powers, because Voldemort did choose him, are equal to Voldemort's powers plus one (The one power the Dark Lord knows not, that Harry was born with) This power puts Harry one up on Voldemort because Voldemort always seems to forget or underestimate this Power that Harry has in such abundance. As SSSusan has said it is a power that is extremely hard to put into a mere word. I'm going to have to go biblical here and say that it is what Job possessed; a man that was not willing to sacrifice, but did. A man that was so pure of heart that the devil made a deal with God and God was so sure of Job's choice that he allowed him to be tested and for anyone who is not religiously knowledgeable, Job did win in the end. Job had everything taken away from him and yet still remained faithful and God rewarded him for it. Such is Harry, faithful to a fault. Harry can't stop helping others; even at his own sacrifice, even to the point of being ridiculed. Others may criticize him but Harry doesn't stop to think what others perceive him to be, he just acts accordingly to the situation at hand; be it Luna or Neville. In short Harry thinks of others before he thinks of himself. Makes me think of a hymnal that we taught called JOY. Jesus and Others and You what a wonderful way to spell JOY! First there is what you believe (which in this religion is Jesus) then there are Others then there is You. Harry appears to obtain this same attribute. There are so many people that Harry defends from Hagrid to Hermione to Neville and yes even Dudley (who doesn't quite deserve it). Harry has been in defense of all these people and more because it lies within him to do so. If Harry has been condemned to the trials of Job, the worst and the best have yet to come. Snow From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 17 03:28:30 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 03:28:30 -0000 Subject: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129044 SSSusan: > > And, Neri, that Occam's Razor slice on my foot seems to be > > healing quite nicely now. ;-) Neri: > I'm glad to hear about that :-) > > However, I have to admit that, despite reading the explanation > above three times, I completely failed to understand why the new > FAQ supports DRIBBLE SHADOW in any way. Could you draw a diagram > for me or something? SSSusan: Hee. Well, "supports" is a strong word. Notice how I used the word "reinforces" but then backed off and said "at least didn't sink it"? ;-) Seriously, what I meant is, when you had me step on Occam's Razor, saying my original theory was more complicated than it needed to be, you stated that the ointment could've been applied *before* the Godric's Hollow attack, which would be a simpler proposition. I'm now pointing out that JKR's response to the FAQ poll question seems to state that it was Lily's love sacrifice -- PERIOD -- which saved Harry, because she admits that Frank or Alice doing the same thing would've saved Neville. So *that* I take as "support" for my contention that the dragon-blood ointment (if it exists) was applied *after* the attack. Better? Neri: > I also still don't see why we need the additional ointment > protection. Lily's sacrifice was what saved Harry at GH (as JKR > confirmed again) and it's also what saved Harry from > Quirrellmort's touch in SS/PS (according to DD). So when did we > see the ointment protection in action? When did it save Harry's > life? This is the part that I fail to understand. SSSusan: Oh, we don't necessarily *need* it, but I think it's quite likely that it's there. I suggested the possibility earlier that it might have provided additional protection, or strength if you will, during the wand duel. But take a gander at the following: In 128778, Jen stated, "I find it a bit odd myself, that the one place Harry is safest besides the blood protection of Privet Drive, is at Hogwarts. Surrounded by the three people who would be able to administer the dragon-blood ointment to Harry at verious intervals throughout the year. Don't you?" And Potioncat supplied this in 128861: > Potioncat retrieves the can(n)ball tossed aside by Jen and reads it > aloud again: > GoF, Ch. 33: > "But how to get at Harry Potter? For he has been better protected > than I think even he knows, protected in ways devised by > Dumbledore long ago, when it fell to him to arrange the boy's > future. It seems to me that Voldy believes DD has done things to protect Harry. "Better protected than I think even he knows," "protected in ways devised by DD... when it fell to him to arrange the boy's future." WAYS (plural) implies to me *more* than the Dursley house protection. I'm *hypothesizing* that DD decided to add additional protection after Godric's Hollow because he didn't believe Voldy to be properly dead. And I like my hypothesis because it manages to bring in Snape & Hagrid in ways which would explain DD's trust of Snape & Hagrid's trust of Snape and *also* provide an explanation for the 24 hours. Neri: > I think I have to warn you that from my personal experience, > keeping your own ship is not all that it's cracked to be. I know, > it sounds very cool to cruse TBAY at weekends in your privet yacht > and all the newbies admiring you from the dock, but what's they > don't tell you is that it's also a lot of tedious maintenance > work. SSSusan: Neri, dear, did you *see* my DRIBBLE SHADOWS ship? It ain't no yacht; 'tis a dinghy at best! And it's not exactly being admired by the masses.:-) I also have *no* ship maintenance experience. So I may well be in deep doo-doo -- or deep waters -- soon. Neri: > These damn things tend to leak like sieves, and good ship-elves > are very hard to come by. It might be easier if you have a loyal > crew, but OTOH I suspect the arguments among the crewmembers might > offset the advantage of the additional work force . SSSusan: Psst! This is why I ply my crew with an ongoing supply of margaritas. My attempt to stave off mutiny! > Captain Neri of the VASSAL salutes to Captain SSSusan of the > DRIBBLE SHADOWS. SSSusan, saluting you back. Yours is a noble ship, Cap'n Neri. From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Tue May 17 03:29:51 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (Emily) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 03:29:51 -0000 Subject: Why Did Voldemort Live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > > I think Rowling believes there's a critical difference between > physical death and spiritual death. In some ways, I think of > Voldemort pre-OotP as existing in a similar sort of state > as the Hogwarts' ghosts (though they're not nearly so powerful nor are > they evil!). Something kept Sir Nicholas and the other ghosts from > accepting death. Sir Nicholas says that it was fear that kept him > from truly dying: imamommy: Hmmm. Part of my religious convictions include the belief that there are two kinds of death, physical and spiritual, and that sin is what causes spiritual death, death meaning being cut off from the prescence of God. What you said here, Sophie, made me think of a quote from CoS. I don't have the book here, but something about Sir Nicholas being only petrified by the Basilisk, the point was made that since he was a ghost he couldn't die again. So, I guess my point is maybe Voldie's spirit didn't die because something he had done had already made him spiritually dead, not nonexistent, but cut off from the rest of humanity, and because his spirit was not properly alive, it could not be killed? Just hazarding a guess, imamommy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue May 17 04:19:50 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 04:19:50 -0000 Subject: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129046 Neri: > I also still don't see why we need the additional ointment > protection.Lily's sacrifice was what saved Harry at GH (as JKR > confirmed again)and it's also what saved Harry from Quirrellmort's > touch in SS/PS(according to DD). So when did we see the ointment > protection inaction? When did it save Harry's life? This is the > part that I fail to understand. Jen: Neri, Neri, oh ye of little faith! Ancient magic and blood protection is good and all that, but only if Harry spends the rest of his life at Privet Drive. Take the much quoted Graveyard speech. Voldemort admits he can't touch Harry at Privet Dr., but also states he can't reach him at Hogwarts, either. No blood protection there! LV atrributes it to Harry being under the watchful eye of the 'Muggle-loving fool' but really, I doubt even DD would agree his twinkling eyes are enough to keep Harry safe 100% of the time ;). Especially given Harry's penchant for finding adventure whether DD is around or not. And then we have the highly suspect fact that Harry escaped intact in the Graveyard while not only the most feared dark wizard of all times was chasing him, but dozens of DE's as well. Amazing how many spells were whizzing around Harry yet not *one* managed to hit the mark. And in the DOM, Harry once again remained unscathed while running from numerous DE's and battling Bellatrix, who had just extinguished a veteran fighter twice Harry's age. And defeating the Basilisk in COS? Amazing how Harry was able to escape the Basilisk multiple times before finally killing him. Fawkes and Gryffindor's sword provided the means, but Harry still had to stay alive long enough to find the end himself. The way I see it, the options are: 1)Harry is either extremely lucky; 2) JKR is writing her scenes knowing the readers must suspend reality a bit and accept the hero theme at work; or 3) Harry is protected by something else when he's away from the Dursleys. I'm voting for one of Dumbledore's 'clever ideas' as the answer to that question. Jen, highly enjoying the ride of the good ship DRIBBLE SHADOWS even if we spring a leak after HBP. From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue May 17 04:26:54 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 04:26:54 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129047 bboyminn: Again, regarding Dumbledore's treatment of the captured DE's, I don't think that Dumbledore see it as his job to be judge, jury, and executioner; he rightly turns the matter over to the authorities. The Kreacher situation can't, in my opinion, be put in the same class as the DE's. Kemper now: If you see the necessity for Dumbledore to execute Kreacher, you see Dumbledore as judge and jury. Dumbledore has reason to kill Bellatrix in the Death Chamber, as he witnessed her kill Sirius. But he doesn't send a killing curse at Bellatrix as she deflected whatever spell he sent towards her (there's no defense against a killing curse). Why doesn't Dumbledore kill any of the DE's in the DoM? Does he trust and believe in the Ministry's due process for them? I don't think so, but I think that he trusts and believes in redemption. bboyminn earlier: This is war; war by it's very nature is a failing of mankind. Men are force to kill or be kill, forced by dark and terrible circumstances to do things that go against their good nature, but do them they must. Back to Kemper: Military rules of engagement allow for Dumbledore to open fire (use a wand and kill) any and all of the enemy (Death Eaters, some of whom are almost as terrible as Voldemort) in a just manner because the enemy (DEs) attacked civilians (children) and killed a fellow soldier (Sirius). But he Dumbledore chooses not to kill even though he has every military right to do so (and it would probably be a strategic tactic as well: elimination of future violence.) The workable alternative for Kreacher are: 1. Snape poisons Kreacher (to protect himself?), 2. Mad Eye AKs him (to protect the order), 3. Phineas' orders Kreacher to commit suicide (he listens to Mrs. Blacks portrait why not Phineas), 4. Kreacher escapes when he feels the magical bind to the family lift upon Sirius' death (do we actually think he'll stick around?). I like the first one or the last one. The first one for even more Snape conspiracy (ESE? or ESGood?). The last for my little prediction: Dobby joins the Order and needs his equivalent on the other side to fight during the storming of Hogwarts in book 7. You heard it hear first Are those workable alternatives? Kemper From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Tue May 17 04:29:32 2005 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 04:29:32 -0000 Subject: Why Did Voldemort Live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > Actually, Rowling didn't say that we should be asking "Why did > Voldemort live?" Instead, she said that no one's ever asked her this > question: "Why didn't Voldemort die?" (Edinburgh Book Festival > transcript). This may seem like a nitpick on my part, but I think > it's significant that in her discussion of this topic, she keeps > talking about why Voldemort didn't die instead of talking about why > Voldemort lived. (See the transcript for her full disucssion; > here's a link: > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80) > I think you have made an important point there. In my opinion the reason Voldemort did not die is that he is not truly alive. Voldemort cannot feel love, Voldemort cannot feel the pain that goes with love, Voldemort has lost everything that made him alive as a result of the steps he took long ago to guard himself against death. This then is why Dumbledore tells Harry at the end of PS/SS: "not being truly alive, he cannot be killed." Dumbledore could have been referring to Voldemort's vapor state. But then Voldemort's vapor state was a result of it being impossible to kill Voldemort, not the cause. Dumbledore could have been referring to Voldemort's state of cursed half-life caused by drinking Unicorn blood. Unicorn blood however does not seem to keep you permanently from dying. It certainly didn't prevent Quirrell from dying. So perhaps Dumbledore was referring to the steps Voldemort had taken long ago to guard himself against death. This would mean Voldemort already was not truly alive the night he showed up in Godric's Hollow and was hit by the rebounded AK-curse. Because he was not truly alive, the AK-curse could not kill him. -Maus For more on Voldemort not being truly alive see the KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 05:10:37 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:10:37 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129049 Nora wrote: > > This seems to kill the Lily was special/Lily did something special and specific Charms wise to defend Harry idea. It also kills the idea that only *maternal* love could do it, as Frank could have sacrificed himself as well. > GEO responded: > However it doesn't kill the theories of why Voldemort didn't kill Lily considering that he could have killed her and then went for Harry and saved himself quite a bit of trouble in comparison to what actually happened where he told her to step aside and tried to kill Harry first. Still that does set us back to square one apparently. Carol notes: Voldemort would certainly have killed Lily if she had been holding a wand or seemed in any way to pose a threat. Instead she was merely a hindrance. He had no reason to kill her, whereas he had very good reason to kill James--and even more reason, so he thought, to kill his real target, Harry. So I don't think we're back at square one in that regard. But the mechanism of the Ancient Magic is still, IMO, problematic. For one thing, just any self-sacrifice can't protect against an AK or Harry would not be the only known survivor. While, as Nora says, the protective charm theory *seems* to have been destroyed (there is still canonical evidence for it, however), her self-sacrifice seems to have been a deliberate act, not a mere coincidence or lucky accident (lucky for Harry and the WW, obviously not for Lily). Even if she didn't perform a Charm, I think she knew exactly what she was doing and why: she was aware of the Ancient Magic and knew that it could be achieved only if she was a willing victim, not fighting for her own life or even for Harry's. For Frank or Alice to have saved Neville in a similar fashion (assuming that Voldemort went after Neville first as JKR postulates in her FAQ), they would have had to know that same secret. I think that, being aurors, they would have instinctively chosen to fight, and died fighting (as James did) without saving their child. Lily didn't have to die in *Voldemort's* view (though he might well have killed her for good measure after he had murdered Harry), but she did have to die in her own view. To return to GEO's point, I don't think Voldemort had any ulterior motive in originally sparing her (she's not a relative or the promised bride of Wormtail and he certainly wasn't showing her mercy or kindness). He just had no reason to kill her and every reason (so he thought) to kill Harry. I repeat, if she'd been armed with a wand, he would have considered her dangerous and fought with her just as he did with James. Without a wand, she was only a "silly girl" who happened to be in his way. He's constantly underestimating Harry. He did the same with Lily. Carol, still hoping there's a Charm associated with Harry's protection but inclined to doubt it now From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 05:19:39 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:19:39 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: <20050516182922.50650.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129050 Magda wrote: > Actually, it would make a good resolution to a sticky problem if the > Malfoys offed Kreacher because he now knew too much about their plan > to entice Harry into the MoM. It would remove a problem for the > Order at the same time as it establishes (again) how nasty the > Malfoys are. > > Magda Carol: I like that idea, but how about an even simpler solution? Kreacher, lonely, depressed, and suicidal, decides to visit Buckbeak, whom he has recently injured? All he has to do is step a little too close without bowing, and off with his head. Carol, who doesn't for a moment think that Dumbledore would commit murder but does think that JKR will provide a solution to the Kreacher Problem From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue May 17 06:33:14 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:33:14 -0000 Subject: Sparing Lily was Re: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129051 > Carol notes: > Voldemort would certainly have killed Lily if she had been holding a > wand or seemed in any way to pose a threat. Instead she was merely a > hindrance. He had no reason to kill her, whereas he had very good > reason to kill James--and even more reason, so he thought, to kill his > real target, Harry. So I don't think we're back at square one in that > regard. > ... Lily didn't have > to die in *Voldemort's* view (though he might well have killed her for > good measure after he had murdered Harry), but she did have to die in > her own view. > > To return to GEO's point, I don't think Voldemort had any ulterior > motive in originally sparing her.... He just had no reason to kill her and every reason (so he > thought) to kill Harry. I repeat, if she'd been armed with a wand, he > would have considered her dangerous and fought with her just as he did > with James. Without a wand, she was only a "silly girl" who happened > to be in his way. Kemper: It use to bother me that LV was willing to spare Lily, but I've come to believe that he was willing to spare her, wand or no wand, to be a mouthpiece to WW and DD that he indeed killed Harry and that he was the most powerful, terrible wizard. I think LV believed that sparing Lily would be more terrorizing than killing her, in the eyes of the WW public, because Lily would have witnessed her son being killed and what a horrible story that would be for the WW. It's a bit like Dark Public Relations campaign: Live and Fear the Dark Order. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 17 07:28:59 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:28:59 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kempermentor" wrote: > bboyminn: > ... I don't think that Dumbledore see it as his job to be judge, > jury, and executioner; he rightly turns the (DE) matter over to the > authorities. The Kreacher situation can't, in my opinion, be put in > the same class as the DE's. > > > Kemper now: > If you see the necessity for Dumbledore to execute Kreacher, you see > Dumbledore as judge and jury. Dumbledore has reason to kill > Bellatrix in the Death Chamber, as he witnessed her kill Sirius. > bboyminn now replies: You make some very good points, and from your perspective, I actually agree with them, but obviously, I'm coming at it from a different perspective. There is a big difference between enemies on the loose and a traitor in the midst. Enemies are dangerous, but when the enemy is among you, and privileged to inside information, and in addition, knows who your secret spies are, and is a known traitor, and on top of everything else is completely unstable, it becomes a completely different circumstance. That's why I say the DE's aren't a fair analogy to Kreacher situation. > bboyminn earlier: > This is war; war by it's very nature is a failing of mankind. Men > are force to kill or be kill, forced by dark and terrible > circumstances to do things that go against their good nature, but do > them they must. > Back to Kemper: > Military rules of engagement allow for Dumbledore to open fire (use > a wand and kill) any and all of the enemy ... in a just manner > because the enemy (DEs) attacked ... (children) and killed a fellow > soldier (Sirius). But he Dumbledore chooses not to kill even though > he has every military right to do so .... > bboyminn: Nitpicking here, but even though we are generally at war, we are not specifically at war, so 'rules of engagement' don't quite apply the way they would in a 'front lines' type of battle. Your point is still well made, some fair argument could be made for Dumbledore blasting his way in and killing every bad guy in sight, but I think you make the point earlier that 'killing every bad guy in sight' is not Dumbledore's style; on that I agree. We can even look at Sirius's comments about Mad Eye Moody, despite the apparent blanket order to take out any and all bad guys in the first war via Crouch's authorization of Unforgivables, Moody would only use the AK as a last resort. If possible, he always brought them back alive. In a sense we are seeing both Dumbledore and Moody taking the moral high ground. Again, I'm looking for a solution that is in proportion to the magnitude of the problem, and Kreacher, I would rate as a very HIGH magnitude problem. Of course, JKR may just have Kreacher fade away never to be seen or heard from again. Though I said it, I'm not sure I believe it. Kreacher has too high a profile to just disappear from the storyline. > Kemper continues: > > The workable alternative for Kreacher are: > > 1. Snape poisons Kreacher (to protect himself?), > 2. Mad Eye AKs him (to protect the order), > 3. Phineas' orders Kreacher to commit suicide (he listens to Mrs. > Blacks portrait why not Phineas), > 4. Kreacher escapes when he feels the magical bind to the family > lift upon Sirius' death (do we actually think he'll stick around?). > > I like the first one or the last one. The first one for even more > Snape conspiracy (ESE? or ESGood?). The last for my little > prediction: Dobby joins the Order and needs his equivalent on the > other side to fight during the storming of Hogwarts in book 7. You > heard it hear first > > Are those workable alternatives? > > Kemper bboyminn: I still have a gut feeling that Kreacher is dead or soon will be, and I admit I resist Dumbledore killing him, or causing his death, none the less, I can see it happening that way. Right now, I'm leaning more toward the Kreacher dead by his own hand idea. That saves us a lot of sticky moral questions. Although, I do like the idea of Kreacher becoming Dobby's own personal antagonist. I think that would make a great side plot, but I fear that we have created so many side plots that it's next to impossible to resolve them all in only two more books. Still, Dobby vs Kreacher might have some good possibilities. As far as Snape disposing of Kreacher, certainly Snape is at great risk, but I have always speculated that Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to pretend to join the good side, but in reality so he could spy on Dumbledore for Voldemort. This whole double agent thing gets a little tricky, but I have very strong feeling in favor of it. It certainly explains how and why Snape can continue to work for Dumbledore and still be able to spy on Voldemort. None the less, if Snape is a double agent (or triple agent or whatever), Voldemort is not going to freak out when he finds out that Snape is working for Dumbledore because that is exactly what Voldemort expects Snape to pretend to do. If Kreacher just runs off and escapes, runs to the Forbiden Forest or where ever, but not to Lestrange or Malfoy's, that gets him out of the picture for now, but if that happens, I have to believe Kreacher will return at some point to make trouble. Regardless of how you slice it and dice it, Kreacher does present a trick moral dilemma. He is too dangerous to live, but can we really sully the moral character of the good guys by killing him? Only time will tell. Steve/bboyminn From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Tue May 17 07:30:35 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:30:35 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis, Geoff and Latin grammar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129053 Geoff wrote: given and family names which are derived from something like that are sometimes strange if viewed from a grammatical standpoint. There again, JKR has flown on the face of Latin grammar and accurate Latin a number of times. Some of her spells leave a little bit to be desired linguistically. Deborah again: So they do an' all, but I've always justified this by assuming that since languages change over time when they are used creatively, some words (like 'Expelliarmus', which would have driven Cicero into a frothy frenzy) have become modified simply because they are used in the WW in a way they could never be used in the classroom, or presumably the Vatican. That still leaves me convinced that Felix Felicis cannot be human. Cannot be a name. Not in the Latin system. Felix Felixson, yes maybe. Felicity Felixdaughter, why not? (She's probably in the Iceland Quidditch team.) But real, live Latin speakers didn't name their sons things like Julius Julianus. And I don't think that Felix Felicis, with or without initial capital letters, is a likely phrase. It's an entry in a filing system, providing information about where 'felix' fits into the language, and it's useful narrowly, just as it is narrowly useful to know where gold appears in the periodic table, though when discussing Snitches or one's wedding ring one says 'gold' and not 'Au', or '79'. So, what is it in HBP? Why is a dear little long-ago adjective entitled to be a title? Nicholas Flamel would have written up his experiments in Latin; the Hogwarts founders would have taught in Latin (especially Rowena!); some of the old books in the restricted section of the library must logically be in Latin; Felix the Cat could be an animagus (getting desperate here!) ... and none of it helps at all! (I'm *here*, and my books are *there*, so I can't check: do all the words in the chapter headings regularly get capitalised?) Deborah, infelix atque impatiens From waterbird72 at gmail.com Mon May 16 20:09:53 2005 From: waterbird72 at gmail.com (waterbird72) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:09:53 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129054 I couldn't resist coming out of Lurkdom to offer my own predictions to the list. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? A Malfoy, probably Lucius, and a Weasley. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gyrffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She knew all along that the only way to save Harry would be to sacrifice herself. That is why she refused to step aside when LV ordered her to. Her sacrifice triggered the protection charm, which caused LV's AK to rebound on him. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicitas 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I don't think he'll be up for a serious relationship but he may endeavour something strange and fleeting with Luna. Hints of a serious interest in Ginny will start to surface. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory--and he will prove difficult. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve in which Lily (and perhaps James), knowing that they would likely perish defending him, saved memories for Harry to see. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? You bet. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. Following the DoM incident, he will have resolved to do everything possible to fight Voldemort and avenge his parents. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He passed them all and will get into NEWT-level Potions without DD having to pull any strings with Snape. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Neville will learn about the Prophecy. 2. The TWT champions will return: Fleur Delacour will accept a teaching position at Hogwarts, and Viktor Krum will join the Order. 3. Harry will leave Privet Drive for Spinners End, DD's summer home. While there, DD will take over Harry's Occlumency training but he will insist that HP and Snape work together again once school starts. 4. Draco will have a personal brush with LV and/or the Death Eaters. 5.The DA will continue and several Slytherins will join. ==And because I can't stop now that I've started...== 6.Harry will finally start asking pointed questions about his parents, family, etc. 7.Ron's jealousy of Harry will resurface. 8. Hermione will get her wish and be able to see the Thestrals. From patientx3 at aol.com Tue May 17 07:51:26 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:51:26 -0000 Subject: Predictions & PS on Sirius In-Reply-To: <20050515124350.15426.qmail@web26110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129055 Hans wrote: >>I have repeatedly stated that Sirius' friends' names are significant. I'm referring to JAMES Potter, PETER Pettigrew and Remus JOHN Lupin. I've pointed out that the TRANSFIGURATION (know that word?) of Jesus on the mount was watched by James, Peter and John. Geoff said that those three are the most common names in England, and that it was all coincidence. [snip] So to say that it's a coincidence that Sirius' friends happened to be the same as Jesus' 3 top disciples is possible, but the chances are one in thousands. In fact I think it's underestimating Jo's intelligence to say a thing like that. Everything she does is so obviously deliberate, so calculated (in the kindest meaning of the word) and so intelligently put together, that I think this whole thing is no coincidence at all, but deliberate. Jo is nailing her flag to the mast.<< Rebecca: I think the chances of a John, Peter and James becoming friends was pretty good. In the 1960s John and James were the 3rd and 4th most popular names for boys. Peter was less common, but still in the top 50. [ http://www.behindthename.com/top/lists/100us1960s.html - its from the US, but close enough, I suppose). Besides, if she was trying to make a religous point you are referencing, wouldn't it make more sense that Sirius, James, and Peter were watching Lupin's transfiguration? Sirius was never the only one changing form (while Lupin was). And on top of that, she gave Lupin the *middle* names John, not the first, which makes me think she just chose a standard sounding middle name which started with J (to go along with the nice-sounding 'Professor RJ Lupin'). And Lupin's middle name has never been revealed in the books, only in an outside interview, so if she's trying to make a serious biblical reference, it seems sort of incidental. Remember, there are a lot of readers of the HP series who *don't* participate in fandom. So unless his middle name ends up in the next two books, its a reference that'll be lost on a large number of the fans. I think the names are just common (and are common because of the bible actually, like all the Matthews running around), unless something more specific comes out in the next two books, I'd say its a concidence, and not even a big one at that. -Rebecca / HunterGreen From jen_kat_du at yahoo.com Mon May 16 23:12:43 2005 From: jen_kat_du at yahoo.com (jen_kat_du) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 23:12:43 -0000 Subject: Are Half-bloods the most powerful wizards of them all? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129056 I was thinking that maybe the reason that purebloods hate halfbloods so much is because they are actually more powerful than they are. Tom Riddle, Harry, and maybe even Dumbledore is a halfblood. How much do we really know about Dumbledore? I think he is the half-blood prince. How is it is that he is such a powerful wizard, so powerful that he is the only one that LV is truly afraid of (and maybe even Snape). If you kill off all the muggles and halfbloods, then no one could ever overcome them and their long reign in the wizarding world. How is it that mudbloods have magical powers at all? Hermione for example is Head Girl and the "brightest witch of her age". In genetics, variety is the spice of life and I think that new blood interlaced with old pureblood might be the recipe to bring out the most powerful magic of them all. Hello to everyone, a new member Jennifer From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 17 07:59:04 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:59:04 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis, Geoff and Latin grammar - Minor Point In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > Geoff wrote: > > given and family names which are derived from something like that > are sometimes strange if viewed from a grammatical standpoint. > Deborah again: > > So they do an' all, but I've always justified this by assuming that > since languages change over time when they are used creatively, some > words (like 'Expelliarmus', which would have driven Cicero into a > frothy frenzy) have become modified simply because they are used in > the WW in a way they could never be used in the classroom, or > presumably the Vatican. > > That still leaves me convinced that Felix Felicis cannot be human. > Cannot be a name. Not in the Latin system. ...edited... > > Deborah, infelix atque impatiens bboyminn: Interesting discussion, but I think we are all overlooking one very small but very important point. Let's start by assuming that Felix Felicis is the name of a man. It's not likely that 'Felix Felicis' sprang into being out of nowhere. It's more likely that the family name 'Felicis' had existed for countless generation before some misguided mother decided to name her son 'Felix'. In all likelihood, from a real world perspective, over the many generations, the connection between 'Felicis' and Luck or Fortunate had been lost, so these particular parents many not have realize they were naming their son 'Luck of the Lucky' or 'Fortune of the Fortunate' or whatever. The name in isolation seems very unlikely, but from a real world perspective, how many of your parents considered the Latin meaning of the family last name when choosing your first name. In fact, how many of you, or people in general, know the Latin meaning of either their first or last names? I think the correct perspective is to view 'Felicis' as a very old family name, and the addition of 'Felix' as a relatively new occurance. Just one small point. Steve/bboyminn From empooress at yahoo.com Tue May 17 03:27:51 2005 From: empooress at yahoo.com (Kim McGibony) Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 20:27:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape Theory Lists In-Reply-To: <1116225414.12644.73056.m21@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050517032752.85583.qmail@web52108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129058 "Tamara" wrote: > Am I the only person that thinks that Snape is really still a Death Eater, and isn't loyal to Dumbledore? I think JKR is setting up to make him truly evil. Either that or he is Dumbledore's nephew or something. He'd have to have an AMAZING reason for going good. I predicted that James had saved Snape twice. Once being the prank and then another time perhaps from the DEs. Someone else (sorry, I don't know who) has sugested that it was Lily who had saved Snape. Either way he would owe a big debt to Harry (might explain part of his animosity towards him) and could possible be the reason he turned against Voldy. We do know that Snape turned prior to Harry being born, so perhaps one of the three times the Potters defied Voldy has something to do with it as well. Empooress Are the days going by slower now?? __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From department.of.mysteries at gmail.com Tue May 17 04:34:23 2005 From: department.of.mysteries at gmail.com (athene42100) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 04:34:23 -0000 Subject: FILK: Whatever Became of Barty? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129059 I wrote this filk about Barty Crouch, Sr. aaaages ago, but never posted it anywhere but my LJ. This is to the tune of Tom Lehrer's "Whatever Became of Hubert?" I have searched for a MIDI or mp3 or other sound file, but none seem to exist online. Whatever became of Barty? What caused him to disappear? Once his prospects were grand, And with wand in his hand He guaranteed his career. Once the future Minister QED, Ah, but now his son's hobby impedes, he Is no longer a good candidate, For Junior it's too little too late. "We must confess this scandal, Barty," Says each newspaper reader. "Has made us wary of your party, Please don't be our leader." Whatever became of you, Barty? What office do you now hold? Is it big? Is it grand? Do you now rule the land? Does the world in your hand Unfold? Does Percy, devoting his life to your cause Know the things you have done and the breaks in your laws? Are you the newest convert to "spew"? Barty, what happened to you? From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Tue May 17 08:18:31 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 08:18:31 -0000 Subject: Kreacher feature Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129060 Deborah, now: Why would Kreacher kill himself when staying alive to cause trouble would be so much more satisfying? Well, what about if he was acting on the instructions of the Old Mistress, Sirius's screeching-portrait mummy? She has had his loyalty and love all along, and one shriek from her along the lines of: 'He was the only son I had left, he would have seen reason in the end, he shouldn't have died' will dump enough guilt on her faithful aged retainer that he'll take a running dive through the Veil of House Elves. Only snag is, given Harry's power as the POV character, when is this to happen and how are we to know? Deborah, waiting for July From wherr009 at umn.edu Tue May 17 05:39:24 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 05:39:24 -0000 Subject: how did the escaped DEs get wands? (was: Voldemort's Wand...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129061 Carol: > Carol, who still wants to know how the Azkaban Death Eaters got the > wands they used in the DoM wherr009: Just grasping at straws here, but maybe for some stupid reason the wands of the DE in Azkaban were stored in Azkaban. So if this were the case, when the dementors left(?) then they were able to just get their wands that way. I know it's not a very good theory, but it is something. /really bad at this "thinking" thing everyone else here is good at. wherr009 From weasleyarther at yahoo.com Tue May 17 06:39:36 2005 From: weasleyarther at yahoo.com (weasleyarther) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 06:39:36 -0000 Subject: Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129062 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brad" wrote: > With the last of the Blacks now dead, what becomes of Kreacher? Is > Sirius' relation to Tonks enough to make her his new master? > Otherwise, what stops him from leaving Grimmauld Place and going to > the Narcissa or Voldemort and telling her/him everything? I bet that Dumbledore wouldn't have taken the chance of Kreacher knowing the secrets of the Order if this were a possibility. Whatwould have happened if Sirius had had a heart attack at Grimmauld Place and died? I'm sure Dumbledore made arrangements in the matter. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue May 17 09:24:05 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:24:05 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > > > Carol notes: > > But the mechanism of the Ancient Magic is still, IMO, problematic. For > one thing, just any self-sacrifice can't protect against an AK or > Harry would not be the only known survivor. Hickengruendler: I think this is more plausible than it seems on first look. We shouldn't forget that Voldemort normally doesn't target children. Sure, he might kill them as well if they are there, like it could have been with the Bones family. But his primarly targets are the parents, who fight him. In Harry's (or if he had chosen Neville, in Neville's) case it was the other way around. Here it was the child who was the intented victim, and the parents were just killed because they were in the way to the child. The attack on the Potters was therefore a very special circumstance, since it was the only time we know about, that Voldemort's real target was a child. Hickengruendler From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 17 10:39:52 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 10:39:52 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis, Geoff and Latin grammar - Minor Point In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > > Geoff wrote: > > given and family names which are derived from something like that > > are sometimes strange if viewed from a grammatical standpoint. Deborah: > > So they do an' all, but I've always justified this by assuming that > > since languages change over time when they are used creatively, some > > words (like 'Expelliarmus', which would have driven Cicero into a > > frothy frenzy) have become modified simply because they are used in > > the WW in a way they could never be used in the classroom, or > > presumably the Vatican. > > > > That still leaves me convinced that Felix Felicis cannot be human. > > Cannot be a name. Not in the Latin system. ...edited... > > > > Deborah, infelix atque impatiens bboyminn: > I think the correct perspective is to view 'Felicis' as a very old > family name, and the addition of 'Felix' as a relatively new occurance. Geoff: An idea which Deborah echoed was one I put forward in post 127941 that one might translate it as Felix Felixson - along the lines of the Scandinavian tradition perhaps. From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue May 17 11:05:44 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:05:44 -0000 Subject: how did the escaped DEs get wands? (was: Voldemort's Wand...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "wherr009" wrote: > Carol: > > Carol, who still wants to know how the Azkaban Death Eaters got the > > wands they used in the DoM > > wherr009: > > Just grasping at straws here, but maybe for some stupid reason the wands of the DE in > Azkaban were stored in Azkaban. So if this were the case, when the dementors left(?) then > they were able to just get their wands that way. > > I know it's not a very good theory, but it is something. > > /really bad at this "thinking" thing everyone else here is good at. > > wherr009 Tammy: Remember that Ollivander's isn't the only wand maker around. We know there are other wand makers in other countries, but there are probably others within the UK as well. The DE's don't necessarily have to have their own wands back, but they probably went out and got new ones. Voldemort's wand is the only wand that would have to be his same old wand (as it has that whole connection thingy to Harry's wand). The rest can just go shopping. From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue May 17 11:39:56 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:39:56 -0000 Subject: Why Did Voldemort Live? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" > wrote: > > Actually, Rowling didn't say that we should be asking "Why did > > Voldemort live?" Instead, she said that no one's ever asked her this > > question: "Why didn't Voldemort die?" (Edinburgh Book Festival > > transcript). This may seem like a nitpick on my part, but I think > > it's significant that in her discussion of this topic, she keeps > > talking about why Voldemort didn't die instead of talking about why > > Voldemort lived. (See the transcript for her full disucssion; > > here's a link: > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80) > > > > I think you have made an important point there. In my opinion the > reason Voldemort did not die is that he is not truly alive. Voldemort > cannot feel love, Voldemort cannot feel the pain that goes with love, > Voldemort has lost everything that made him alive as a result of the > steps he took long ago to guard himself against death. This then is > why Dumbledore tells Harry at the end of PS/SS: "not being truly > alive, he cannot be killed." > > Dumbledore could have been referring to Voldemort's vapor state. But > then Voldemort's vapor state was a result of it being impossible to > kill Voldemort, not the cause. Dumbledore could have been referring > to Voldemort's state of cursed half-life caused by drinking Unicorn > blood. Unicorn blood however does not seem to keep you permanently > from dying. It certainly didn't prevent Quirrell from dying. So > perhaps Dumbledore was referring to the steps Voldemort had taken > long ago to guard himself against death. > > This would mean Voldemort already was not truly alive the night he > showed up in Godric's Hollow and was hit by the rebounded AK-curse. > Because he was not truly alive, the AK-curse could not kill him. > > -Maus > > For more on Voldemort not being truly alive see the KITTENS & > RAINBOWS theory website: > http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html This would give a good explination as to why DD didn't 'kill' Voldemort when he was battling with him at the Ministry in the end of book 6. Voldemort can't be killed, he can only be vanquished? And only Harry can do this. Though, can he die now that he has returned? Tamara From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Tue May 17 11:46:37 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:46:37 -0000 Subject: Sparing Lily was Re: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129067 > Kemper: > It use to bother me that LV was willing to spare Lily, but I've come > to believe that he was willing to spare her, wand or no wand, to be a > mouthpiece to WW and DD that he indeed killed Harry and that he was > the most powerful, terrible wizard. > I think LV believed that sparing Lily would be more terrorizing than > killing her, in the eyes of the WW public, because Lily would have > witnessed her son being killed and what a horrible story that would > be for the WW. It's a bit like Dark Public Relations campaign: Live > and Fear the Dark Order. Absolutely. It's like saying the "Mudblood" was beneath notice but that Pure Bloods would be punished for mixing with them. James would be killed along with his mixed blood child. I also think that Voldemort wasn't going to take any chances. Neville was next on the list to die, but he got vaporized by Harry before he got around to it. Casey From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue May 17 11:52:40 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:52:40 -0000 Subject: Lilly being blind In-Reply-To: <20050515213903.52175.qmail@web81504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Casey Robinson wrote: > wrote: > > What is Lily's big secret? > > She was blind. > > > In answer to whether or not this could be true, > although a wonderful idea, I find three bits in the > cannon that refutes it. > 1. In SS She looks back at Harry through the Mirror > of Eresed. > 2. THroughout the ENTIRE series, Harry is constantly > told that he has his mother's eyes. While true that > this could be solely the look, it would be really > disturbing that people would be telling Harry that he > has his blind mothers eyes. > 3. Furthermore, Harry saw his parents looking back at > himt hrough numerous photographs. There has never > been mention of sunglasses. > > Now it is possible, I find it highly unlikely, unless > of ocurse blindness came at later stages, and the > mirror of eresed shows them as they were happiest, > etc, etc. Do remember that harry has seen fragments > of his mother, even in the form in which she died, at > the end of GoF. Again, magical world, wierd things > occur after death, who knows, but I highly doubt it. > > Casey Chys: Cool. Thanks for finding that! It WAS just a whim. #1 shows what Harry wants most, he wouldn't know to think that she wouldn't be that way so if that were the case, it wouldn't matter. Although I do agree with you that #2 is disturbing but it wouldn't have that much weight on her not actually being blind. Maybe they were just pointing out the fact that he looked like her, and it were something that happened to her later towards the end of her life, as I previously suggested, then it could be mentioned in that sad sort of way. On another note, you don't have to wear sunglasses if you're blind, it's not a rule. ^_^ Besides maybe they had a potion to fix that blindness, eh? Doesn't mean Harry was born with it. All in fun. ^_^ Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue May 17 12:26:06 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:26:06 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: <994a86aaa8a4e552e46dff583db15713@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129069 Laura A slight variation on this idea is that both infants had the Charm placed on them well *before* the night of the attack, and all that was left to do was activate it (with the sacrifice). Chys: What if that were the case, and Neville has it lingering on him still, and Harry activates it with his self-sacificing heroic nature, and it's LV involved? (wonders about another vapormort, but with blood protection in him, would he just die?) It's in Harry's character, I think, to do something like that. (And the word that everyone else was looking for to describe this 'something about Harry', I believe, IS 'character', and the good kind too, the kind your high school teacher/mentor/observer/whatever talks about when you do something for the good of others or something like that, and it's like 'he's developed good character'.) On other notes- Although I do think he inherited something from his mother, but now I am wondering if the eyes was just a coincidence, and a shock to those who recognize it, like he looks just like James too. I am beginning to agree with the Sphinx theory, and don't really care if she were or was not blind, btw, but that almond-shaped eyes is interesting, as well as the connections to Egypt, which I am fond of. Chys From sophierom at yahoo.com Tue May 17 12:55:14 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:55:14 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(was:Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129070 > > >>a_svirn: > > > > >As far as Sirius was concerned the best way Kreacher could have > > served him was to die quietly in the attic. And I must say I find > his > > attitude much more honourable than Hermione's hypocrisy.< > > > > Betsy: > > Hermione's hypocrisy? Huh? When was, or how was, Hermione ever > > hypocritical when it came to Kreacher? I thought she was actually > > really good at sticking to her principles in the face of some rather > > ugly hostility. a_svirn responded: > But I agree that "principles" is an operative word here. Hermione is > not really kind to Kreacher. Still less she respects his feelings. She > has a certain political agenda and is hell-bent on carrying it out. > > Now why such an astute and sensible girl would be so blind? The answer > is simple ? she doesn't give a damn about Kreacher. She is neither > interested in him, nor does she even see him as a person. He is just a > point in her agenda, or an object of her crusade. I find this attitude > hypocritical. I think that Sirius's hatred is more honest. He might > not approve or empathize with Kreacher's feelings but he, at least, > acknowledges their existence. Hermione only acknowledges what he > SHOULD feel according to her theories and simply ignores the rest. Sophierom now: a_svirn, I think you're right to point out Hermione's inability to acknowledge Kreacher's true feelings and motivations. However, I strongly disagree that this means that "she doesn't give a damn about Kreacher" or that she's being dishonest or hypocritical. Instead, I'd argue that Hermione is learning - slowly - how to be empathetic. I'd say that there are three steps to becoming truly empathetic: 1. I try to step into your shoes, as it were; I ask myself how I would feel if I were in your position. 2. I step back and try to understand how YOU actually feel in this situation. 3. Finally, I ask, WHY do you feel the way you do? Hermione's only been able to make it to step one so far. Perhaps the reason she makes excuses for Kreacher and "simply ignores" other evidence is that she can't get beyond imagining how she'd feel if she were in the house-elves' positions. We already know from canon that she is an independent thinker who is trying to assimilate into another culture (wizarding culture) without losing her own identity. So, I think she feels akin to the house-elves, sees them as also having to wrestle with identity. Consider this exchange between Ron and Hermione at the beginning of OotP: ** "Who's Kreacher?" [Harry] asked. "The house-elf who lives here," said Ron. "Nutter. Never met one like him." Hermione frowned at Ron. "He's not a nutter, Ron - " "His life's ambition is to have his head cut off and stuck up on a plaque just like his mother," said Ron irritably. "Is that normal, Hermione?" "Well - well, if he is a bit strange, it's not his fault -" Ron rolled his eyes at Harry (OotP, Scholastic, 76). ** I'd argue that Hermione steps up to defend Kreacher (and she continues to do so, despite the fact that he calls her a Mudblood on several occasions) because she knows what it's like to be thought of as a "nutter" for not being "normal". Granted, she can't understand Kreacher's point of view, conceding to Ron that Kreacher "is a bit strange," but the fact that she's standing up for him suggests she is concerned about his feelings. She doesn't understand his feelings; Kreacher probably wouldn't care one bit if Ron - blood traitor that is is - called him a nutter. But from Hermione's point of view - from the perspective of a "mudblood" who knows what it's like to be an outsider - she feels it's important to make room for Kreacher's behvaior, even if it doesn't make any sense to her. I also think it's noteworthy that she says "It's not his fault." On the one hand, this is a very condescending way to look at what is essentially Kreacher's cultural choices. It's reminiscent of Christian missionaries traveling to other parts of the world, pitying other cultures for not sharing the same set of beliefs. But, I can almost hear Hermione defending herself here: "If I am a strange with my Muggle views, it's not my fault - it's just who I am." Obviously, I'm taking a bit of a leap here, but I think if we look at Hermione's entire character and not just her interaction with the house-elves, we can begin to see a young woman who is grappling with issues of identity and culture and who believes that she can understand the house-elf plight because of her own struggles to fit into Wizarding culture. Note that we are first introduced to the term "mudblood" in the same book (CoS) that introduces us to house-elves. I don't think this was coincidental. So, I don't think it's fair to label Hermione a callous hypocrite who doesn't give a damn about the house-elves. I think she's slowly learning how to be empathetic. At the age of 15, she's gotten to the point where she can say, I understand how I would feel in this situation. I'd hate to be a house-elf, looked down upon and mistreated because of who I am. Therefore, they must want what I want: my definition of respect and freedom. I think Hermione will learn, by the end of the series, how to take a step back and ask herself, okay, what do the house-elves really want? How do they really feel? Is there a way to reconcile their cultural beliefs with the injustice of this situation (and come on folks, there is injustice in the plight of the house-elves: Dobby was abused, Winky was manipulated, and Kreacher was raised to believe that his Mistress was his whole life ... in a series about free will and choice, I find it difficult to believe that we're supposed to accept as blindly as Ron does that house-elves should continue to have no choice in their own futures). Just because Hermione is only part way through her training to be an empathetic young woman doesn't make her unfeeling; it only makes her immature. All the best, Sophierom, who admits that she gets a little too worked up about this topic, only because she feels that our current culture denigrates idealism and activism and promotes apathy and conformity. Go Hermione! Fight the Man! :-D From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue May 17 12:57:40 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:57:40 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol notes: He had no reason to kill her, whereas he had very good > reason to kill James--and even more reason, so he thought, to kill his > real target, Harry. GEO: He had very good reasons to kill her. She was a muggleborn, one of the Order of the Phoenix and also one who had defied him three times. Sparings her despite all these reasons thus is very out of character for someone like him who has put whole houses to death. > Even if she didn't > perform a Charm, I think she knew exactly what she was doing and why: > she was aware of the Ancient Magic and knew that it could be achieved > only if she was a willing victim, not fighting for her own life or > even for Harry's. GEO: I think it was absolutely necessary that she didn't know that her sacrifice would bring an end to Voldemort or provide a protection for her son. > To return to GEO's point, I don't think Voldemort had any ulterior > motive in originally sparing her (she's not a relative or the promised > bride of Wormtail and he certainly wasn't showing her mercy or > kindness). GEO: I agree those reasons are not it, but considering that he indiscriminently kills almost anyone that gets in his way(Frank Bryce, Bertha Jorkins, Cedric), I very much doubt his one moment of supposed mercy at Godric's Hollow was a random fluke or oversight. > Without a wand, she was only a "silly girl" who happened > to be in his way. GEO: Considering his victims, I would think that being a "silly girl" would still earn her a killing curse from him. From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Tue May 17 12:59:52 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:59:52 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129072 My prediction on Kreacher? Let Buckbeak kill him. Kreacher seems to be on his bad side now after breaking his leg, ne? Chys From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Tue May 17 13:06:29 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:06:29 -0000 Subject: 'Sparing Lily' - Casey's view Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129073 I really like this: Casey said about LV not intending to kill Lily: It's got an authentic Third Reich feel to it. I'd always, FWIW, rather wondered if LV didn't perhaps have a particular grudge against Lily. He didn't perhaps see her as a threat, or a big enough one to necessitate killing her, but if he wanted her to suffer horribly then letting her live on after seeing her husband and son killed would be a pretty good way. Deborah, shuddering From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Tue May 17 13:07:00 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:07:00 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" > wrote: > > > Carol noted: > > > > > But the mechanism of the Ancient Magic is still, IMO, problematic. > > For one thing, just any self-sacrifice can't protect against an AK > > or Harry would not be the only known survivor. > > Hickengruendler replied: > > I think this is more plausible than it seems on first look. We > shouldn't forget that Voldemort normally doesn't target children. > Sure, he might kill them as well if they are there, like it could > have been with the Bones family. But his primarly targets are the > parents, who fight him. In Harry's (or if he had chosen Neville, in > Neville's) case it was the other way around. Here it was the child > who was the intented victim, and the parents were just killed > because they were in the way to the child. The attack on the Potters > was therefore a very special circumstance, since it was the only > time we know about, that Voldemort's real target was a child. > > Hickengruendler Max responds: I agree with Carol. The 'spontaneous sacrificial rebound protection' has one huge flaw as far as I'm concerned. It's been said before, but I'll say it again. Lily can't possibly be the first witch or wizard to sacrifice themselves in front of an AK curse for someone they love. Yet that is what the 'spontaneous protection' asks us to believe. At the beginning of PS/SS, we learn that Harry surviving the AK curse is *unheard of*. That can't possibly be the case, imo, if this sort of ancient magic is activated spontaneously and automatically. To say that the rebound curse was unheard of because *Voldemort* never targeted a child before seems incomplete to me. First of all, it's never been implied that the ancient magic is only activated when Voldemort is using the AK. I think we can safely assume that the ancient magic is not limited to any one individual. It's ancient magic after all, and has been around long before Voldemort. Secondly, I don't think we can assume that the rebound effect only occurs when one sacrifices themselves for a child. The love for a child is certainly very deep and unique, but love for a spouse, parent or other family member can be just as powerful. I hold that there must be something more to it than simple spontaneous activation. All her statement really disproves is that it was something unique about Lily's sacrifice (had the Longbottom's been equally "able" and "prepared", their sacrifice would have had the same effect). What Rowling means by able and prepared is open to interpretation, of course. Max From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Tue May 17 13:31:15 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 13:31:15 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129075 > Snow: > > Loved the quick take on JKR's long awaited answer to the Neville > aspect of the prophecy. My own immediate response was Harry was BORN with The Power to vanquish the Dark Lord. Voldemort chose poorly who he reckoned was the biggest threat when he chose Harry and actually gave Harry an advantage. Voldemort chose Harry because he saw the likeness of "himself and all he felt" in Harry; muggle parentage, grew up with muggles. If Voldemort were to have chosen Neville, would Harry not have had The Power to vanquish the Dark Lord? I would say no because Harry was born with that specific power. > Dungrollin: See, this is where we have to be careful, I think. What exactly was this reflection of himself that Voldemort saw in Harry before they'd even met? I don't think it can have been the half-blood issue, Lily and James were a muggle-born witch and a pure-blood wizard, Tom's mother was a (presumably) pure-blooded witch, and his father was a muggle - I don't get the connection except that both could be legitimately called 'half-bloods', though for different reasons. It's a bit of a tenuous link, isn't it? Why not choose Neville because his mother was a pure-blood just like Voldy's mother? Secondly, Harry only grew up as an orphan with Muggles because of the attack at GH - I'm afraid it doesn't work as a reason for Voldy to have attacked them because it hadn't happened yet. The other similarities between Harry and Voldy are mentioned by Diary!Tom in CoS, parseltongue (according to DD another result of the attack on GH), and that they "even look somewhat alike," which must be either a coincidence (JKR insists that James was Harry's father, Voldy is no relation, and Harry takes after James) or a result of the GH attack and transfer of powers (in which case again, it can't be used as a motive for Voldy to choose Harry over Neville Sooo... I suppose there is *something* about Harry that made Voldy choose him. Otherwise it wasn't a choice on Voldy's part, it was just bad luck (which would be unsatisfying for me). It has to be something about the history of the parents, surely? How else could Voldy differentiate between two 15 month-old boys he had never met? Dungrollin Hoping it's something nice and bangy about the defiant parents rather than something genealogical. From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue May 17 14:06:08 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:06:08 -0000 Subject: Lilly being blind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Casey Robinson > wrote: > > wrote: > > > What is Lily's big secret? > > > She was blind. > > > > > In answer to whether or not this could be true, > > although a wonderful idea, I find three bits in the > > cannon that refutes it. > > 1. In SS She looks back at Harry through the Mirror > > of Eresed. > > 2. THroughout the ENTIRE series, Harry is constantly > > told that he has his mother's eyes. While true that > > this could be solely the look, it would be really > > disturbing that people would be telling Harry that he > > has his blind mothers eyes. > > 3. Furthermore, Harry saw his parents looking back at > > himt hrough numerous photographs. There has never > > been mention of sunglasses. > > > > Now it is possible, I find it highly unlikely, unless > > of ocurse blindness came at later stages, and the > > mirror of eresed shows them as they were happiest, > > etc, etc. Do remember that harry has seen fragments > > of his mother, even in the form in which she died, at > > the end of GoF. Again, magical world, wierd things > > occur after death, who knows, but I highly doubt it. > > > > Casey > > > Chys: > > Cool. Thanks for finding that! It WAS just a whim. #1 shows what > Harry wants most, he wouldn't know to think that she wouldn't be that > way so if that were the case, it wouldn't matter. Although I do agree > with you that #2 is disturbing but it wouldn't have that much weight > on her not actually being blind. Maybe they were just pointing out > the fact that he looked like her, and it were something that happened > to her later towards the end of her life, as I previously suggested, > then it could be mentioned in that sad sort of way. > > On another note, you don't have to wear sunglasses if you're blind, > it's not a rule. ^_^ Besides maybe they had a potion to fix that > blindness, eh? Doesn't mean Harry was born with it. > > All in fun. ^_^ > Chys I'd never thought of this theory, and when I first started reading this post I thought that JKR wouldn't make Lily blind because she would see it as a sort of symbolism of turning a blind eye to the bad things in the world. But then I thought, it could be symbolism for not being racist or biggoted in anyway. Because as she is blind, she 'sees' people for who they really are, not what they look like, or their background. But, I'm probably waaaaayyyy over thinking this lol. Tamara From sherriola at earthlink.net Tue May 17 14:24:02 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 07:24:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lilly being blind In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002801c55aec$1439a130$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 129077 Chys: > > Cool. Thanks for finding that! It WAS just a whim. #1 shows what > Harry wants most, he wouldn't know to think that she wouldn't be that > way so if that were the case, it wouldn't matter. Although I do agree > with you that #2 is disturbing but it wouldn't have that much weight > on her not actually being blind. Maybe they were just pointing out > the fact that he looked like her, and it were something that happened > to her later towards the end of her life, as I previously suggested, > then it could be mentioned in that sad sort of way. > > On another note, you don't have to wear sunglasses if you're blind, > it's not a rule. ^_^ Besides maybe they had a potion to fix that > blindness, eh? Doesn't mean Harry was born with it. > > All in fun. ^_^ > Chys I'd never thought of this theory, and when I first started reading this post I thought that JKR wouldn't make Lily blind because she would see it as a sort of symbolism of turning a blind eye to the bad things in the world. But then I thought, it could be symbolism for not being racist or biggoted in anyway. Because as she is blind, she 'sees' people for who they really are, not what they look like, or their background. But, I'm probably waaaaayyyy over thinking this lol. Tamara Sherry Now: oh, I really intended to stay out of this discussion, precisely because I am blind. I don't think anyone has said or done anything to indicate that Lily was blind. And I can't for one minute believe that nobody would have mentioned it. Especially with all the talk of her eyes. And no, most blind people don't wear dark glasses anymore, because we aren't ashamed of our eyes in the ways blind people of many years ago were taught to be. Well, if we go in the sun and have some remaining vision, we might wear sun glasses. But I particular wanted to respond to the last comment about if Lilly was blind she wouldn't be bigoted or prejudice. I've been blind since I was five. My parents taught me not to be prejudice. But believe me, I know many blind people who are very bigoted. I think it's how we are raised, not our physical sight or lack thereof, that determines if we accept others for who they are inside and not for the externals that can't be changed. all I hope is that if lily does turn out to have been blind, the blindness is not a vehicle to make her super girl in some sickening way. That would make me want to puke! i like her much more as a woman making a terrible sacrifice for the life of her son. Ah, and soon, hopefully, we will know! sherry From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Tue May 17 14:28:48 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 14:28:48 -0000 Subject: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129078 Jen wrote: > Neri, Neri, oh ye of little faith! Ancient magic and blood > protection is good and all that, but only if Harry spends the rest > of his life at Privet Drive. Neri: Er... in the books I'm reading Lily's sacrifice protection saved Harry from Quirrellmort *at Hogwarts*, according to both DD (in the end of SS/PS) and Voldy (in his graveyard speech). Jen: > Take the much quoted Graveyard speech. Voldemort admits he can't > touch Harry at Privet Dr., but also states he can't reach him at > Hogwarts, either. No blood protection there! LV atrributes it to > Harry being under the watchful eye of the 'Muggle-loving fool' but > really, I doubt even DD would agree his twinkling eyes are enough to > keep Harry safe 100% of the time ;). Especially given Harry's > penchant for finding adventure whether DD is around or not. > Neri: All this is well and good, but as far as I understand, the only piece of canon linking Harry's protection to dragon blood is the expression "ancient magic", which is mentioned once regarding the protection of dragons. So "ancient magic" is your only substantial cannon connection with dragons. However, AFAIK when DD and Voldy mention these words (twice as "ancient magic" and once as "old magic") they always refer to either Lily's sacrifice protection, or to its extension to the Dursley's house. So IMO if you want to link dragon blood to these specific protections, then you have some basis in canon, but if you want to link dragon blood to other protections, then you are stretching canon thinner and thinner. Jen: > And then we have the highly suspect fact that Harry escaped intact > in the Graveyard while not only the most feared dark wizard of all > times was chasing him, but dozens of DE's as well. Amazing how many > spells were whizzing around Harry yet not *one* managed to hit the > mark. And in the DOM, Harry once again remained unscathed while > running from numerous DE's and battling Bellatrix, who had just > extinguished a veteran fighter twice Harry's age. > > And defeating the Basilisk in COS? Amazing how Harry was able to > escape the Basilisk multiple times before finally killing him. > Fawkes and Gryffindor's sword provided the means, but Harry still > had to stay alive long enough to find the end himself. > > The way I see it, the options are: 1)Harry is either extremely > lucky; 2) JKR is writing her scenes knowing the readers must suspend > reality a bit and accept the hero theme at work; or 3) Harry is > protected by something else when he's away from the Dursleys. I'm > voting for one of Dumbledore's 'clever ideas' as the answer to that > question. > Neri: Oh, I could add an item or three to this list. I already mentioned 4) Lily's sacrifice protection, and if this is not enough, how about, 5) he has several/all the powers of the Dark Lord, and 6) he also has the power that the Dark Lord knows not. And of course, we must not forget 7) "and either must die at the hand of the other" which might not be strictly figurative. And there's also 8) he had some good teachers and lots of training. All these options have considerably more canon than dragon blood, and I haven't even used any meta-thinking yet. I'm also sure that DD's clever ideas and Hogwarts' protections also factor in this, but I still don't see any reason to assume they come in the form of an "ancient magic" ointment, especially one that is applied by Snape. The very little we know about ancient magic is that it requires things like Love, Sacrifice and blood relation. Now, Snape claims he can brew Glory and stopper Death (although he somehow never gets to actually demonstrating these abilities) but I suspect that Love and Sacrifice are a bit out of his range, and he's not (canonically) Harry's relative. > Jen, highly enjoying the ride of the good ship DRIBBLE SHADOWS even > if we spring a leak after HBP. Neri: Spring a leak? Heh. If the VASSAL will be just "springing a leak" after Hurricane Jo is through with her, I'll hold myself *extremely* lucky. I'll consider changing my YahooID to Felix_Felicis_Felicius. From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 17 15:06:24 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:06:24 -0000 Subject: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129079 Jen: > > Take the much quoted Graveyard speech. Voldemort admits he can't > > touch Harry at Privet Dr., but also states he can't reach him at > > Hogwarts, either. No blood protection there! LV atrributes it to > > Harry being under the watchful eye of the 'Muggle-loving fool' > > but really, I doubt even DD would agree his twinkling eyes are > > enough to keep Harry safe 100% of the time ;). Neri: > All this is well and good, but as far as I understand, the only > piece of canon linking Harry's protection to dragon blood is the > expression "ancient magic", which is mentioned once regarding the > protection of dragons. So "ancient magic" is your only substantial > cannon connection with dragons. However, AFAIK when DD and Voldy > mention these words (twice as "ancient magic" and once as "old > magic") they always refer to either Lily's sacrifice protection, or > to its extension to the Dursley's house. So IMO if you want to link > dragon blood to these specific protections, then you have some > basis in canon, but if you want to link dragon blood to other > protections, then you are stretching canon thinner and thinner. SSSusan: Cap'n Susan stepping up here, defending her able First Mate! Oh, I don't think Jen and I do have much canon at all for believing there was dragon blood protection applied to Harry! There, THAT'S said. :-) What we do have are gaps we'd like to fill, and some fun ways (well, in our minds) in which we have tried to fill them. To wit: *We have the information that DD discovered the 12 uses of dragon's blood, interestingly presented but not yet explained, as well as other bits & pieces about the difficulty of penetrating dragon hide, and a dragon's vulnerable spot (its eyes, possibly matching Harry's, per JKR comment). *We have the canon on DD trusting Snape and Hagrid defending Snape's loyalty to the trio. *We have missing 24 hours, just CALLING out for ideas to fill it. *We also have references (as I posted earlier today) to Voldy's belief that Harry has been better protected than he knows and his (Voldy's) suspicions that DD has done thing*s* to protect Harry. Is that much canon support? Erm... nope! But there's isn't exactly canon *refutation* at this point, either, and so it's still fun to play, isn't it? ;-) May not be everyone's cup of tea to build a theory that way, but it seems an allowable option. If it means there isn't much of a crew aboard, well, that's okay -- 'tis a small ship. Neri: > I'm also sure that DD's clever ideas and Hogwarts' protections also > factor in this, but I still don't see any reason to assume they come > in the form of an "ancient magic" ointment, especially one that is > applied by Snape. SSSusan: And you definitely don't have to see any reason to assume it. JKR, though, has been known to give us surprising revelations which seem totally out of the blue, but for which tidbits can be located when looking back after the fact. That's all *I'm* doing here -- taking a stab at something which might be. Nobody else has to like it or to think that it's likely. > > Jen, highly enjoying the ride of the good ship DRIBBLE SHADOWS > > even if we spring a leak after HBP. > Neri: > Spring a leak? Heh. If the VASSAL will be just "springing a leak" > after Hurricane Jo is through with her, I'll hold myself *extremely* > lucky. I'll consider changing my YahooID to Felix_Felicis_Felicius. SSSusan: Hee, I'll look forward to that change, Neri. In the meantime, Jen & I and any others who think we're not totally bonkers are welcome to hang out on the dinghy. Siriusly Snapey Susan From patientx3 at aol.com Tue May 17 15:16:47 2005 From: patientx3 at aol.com (huntergreen_3) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:16:47 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129080 Dungrollin: >>Sooo... I suppose there is *something* about Harry that made Voldy choose him. Otherwise it wasn't a choice on Voldy's part, it was just bad luck (which would be unsatisfying for me). It has to be something about the history of the parents, surely? How else could Voldy differentiate between two 15 month-old boys he had never met?<< Rebecca: I'm hoping that its still possible that it was just chance, that he didn't choose at all. The theory that makes the most sense is that Harry was the only one that Voldemort was able to find, not the one that he thought was most likely to be the prophecized one. I always thought that made a lot more sense than him 'chosing' which child to go after (as though he wouldn't kill both of them, just to be sure). But she's sticking with the 'choosing' thing with Voldemort, which makes it probable that it was more than just Dumbledore's opinion. Perhaps the situation was that he found out where both Harry and Neville were (and that Dumbledore found this out later), and had to choose which one to go for first. Even in that situation, though, I don't see him necessarily going for the one he thought most likely to be correct, just the one most likely to be easier to kill, or more likely to disappear (as in, his parents finding out their location is compromised and picking a new hideout). It makes sense to choose Harry then, because although we don't know anything about how Neville was hidden, it was only a matter of time before Sirius figured out the truth about Peter (unless Peter didn't leave his hiding place until Voldemort was on his way to kill the Potters). I don't see why he would make a choice to only kill one of the children, and that's the only time choosing the one 'most like himself' seems to make sense. -Rebecca / HunterGreen. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue May 17 15:27:42 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:27:42 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > > To say that the rebound curse was unheard of because *Voldemort* never > targeted a child before seems incomplete to me. First of all, it's > never been implied that the ancient magic is only activated when > Voldemort is using the AK. I think we can safely assume that the > ancient magic is not limited to any one individual. It's ancient magic > after all, and has been around long before Voldemort. Hickengruendler: Still, it does seem plausible for me that even former Dark Lords or villains don't necessary target children. They are not an imminent threat after all. > Secondly, I don't think we can assume that the rebound effect only > occurs when one sacrifices themselves for a child. The love for a > child is certainly very deep and unique, but love for a spouse, parent > or other family member can be just as powerful. Hickengruendler: And there I disagree. I can't really say why, since I'm aware that there is nothing in canon that explicitly states this. All I can say is, that from reading the books I got the impression, that it is something special that it was a parent, who sacrificed herself for Harry. But we will see if this is further explained in the later books. But note that JKR's poll answer at least doesn't contradict this, when saying, that Frank and Alice could have sacrificed themselves for Neville the same way Lily did for Harry, and the curse would have rebounded as well. There is no mention of Gran or Great Uncle Algie doing so. (Of course I know that it's entirely possible that this was just to make the answer at least a bit shorter ;-) ). Hickengruendler From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Tue May 17 15:35:43 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 11:35:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler Message-ID: <82.283c8f11.2fbb694f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129082 (snipped Jen's stuff, sorry!) SSSusan said Cap'n Susan stepping up here, defending her able First Mate! Oh, I don't think Jen and I do have much canon at all for believing there was dragon blood protection applied to Harry! There, THAT'S said. :-) What we do have are gaps we'd like to fill, and some fun ways (well, in our minds) in which we have tried to fill them. To wit: *We have the information that DD discovered the 12 uses of dragon's blood, interestingly presented but not yet explained, as well as other bits & pieces about the difficulty of penetrating dragon hide, and a dragon's vulnerable spot (its eyes, possibly matching Harry's, per JKR comment). *We have the canon on DD trusting Snape and Hagrid defending Snape's loyalty to the trio. *We have missing 24 hours, just CALLING out for ideas to fill it. *We also have references (as I posted earlier today) to Voldy's belief that Harry has been better protected than he knows and his (Voldy's) suspicions that DD has done thing*s* to protect Harry. Is that much canon support? Erm... nope! But there's isn't exactly canon *refutation* at this point, either, and so it's still fun to play, isn't it? ;-) May not be everyone's cup of tea to build a theory that way, but it seems an allowable option. If it means there isn't much of a crew aboard, well, that's okay -- 'tis a small ship. And then Neri: > I'm also sure that DD's clever ideas and Hogwarts' protections also > factor in this, but I still don't see any reason to assume they come > in the form of an "ancient magic" ointment, especially one that is > applied by Snape. SSSusan again: And you definitely don't have to see any reason to assume it. JKR, though, has been known to give us surprising revelations which seem totally out of the blue, but for which tidbits can be located when looking back after the fact. That's all *I'm* doing here -- taking a stab at something which might be. Nobody else has to like it or to think that it's likely. > > Jen, highly enjoying the ride of the good ship DRIBBLE SHADOWS > > even if we spring a leak after HBP. > And Neri: > Spring a leak? Heh. If the VASSAL will be just "springing a leak" > after Hurricane Jo is through with her, I'll hold myself *extremely* > lucky. I'll consider changing my YahooID to Felix_Felicis_Felicius. SSSusan: Hee, I'll look forward to that change, Neri. In the meantime, Jen & I and any others who think we're not totally bonkers are welcome to hang out on the dinghy. Siriusly Snapey Susan Kaylee Tonks-Lupin here! Ahoy, Captain Susan! Might I be allowed to jump aboard the DRIBBLE SHADOWS? I promise to work hard! Sailor-girl Kaylee is a willing and able seaman (as a woman sailor on the "Lady Washington" told me, she's a man while aboard the ship, but I digress) To get back on the track of DRIBBLE SHADOWS, I believe that the dragon's blood ointment was applied during the missing 24 hours, by none other than Snape. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Lily herself gave him dragon's blood, at some point or other, and he used it to strengthen the protection she already gave her son. But what canon do I have for that? I can hear Neri howling. Absolutely none. It's pure speculation, but it makes sense to me. Of course, as the captain (and also the mate, I believe) of DRIBBLE SHADOWS so kindly pointed out already, even Voldy acknowledges the presence of a protection "better than even he (Harry) knows". Might I bring up the fact that Voldy is quite familiar with snakes (Parselmouth/Parseltongue, Slytherin, snake venom potions, Nagini, and so on), and dragons are quite snakelike? It's a long jump, but isn't it a possibility that Voldy may know a bit about dragon's blood? Particularly since Dumbledore discovered the twelve uses, and Dumbledore taught Riddle? It's likely that he does know a bit about it. Also, if we bring up the fact that Snape (excuse me, PROFESSOR Snape) was a Death Eater, it's possible that HE thought up some of the potions Voldy uses. We know how much our Snape values Potions... Just my opinion, and mine only of course (Sorry, Alla, for stealing your phrase) and my two...or twenty...Knuts, Kaylee, who believes the VASSAL may be a seaworthy vessel, but will take the DRIBBLE SHADOWS theory over it anytime. Sorry, Neri! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 17 15:43:35 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 15:43:35 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(was:Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129083 > Sophierom: > > a_svirn, I think you're right to point out Hermione's inability to > acknowledge Kreacher's true feelings and motivations. However, I > strongly disagree that this means that "she doesn't give a damn about > Kreacher" or that she's being dishonest or hypocritical. a_svirn: I didn't say that she is "callous" hypocrite who doesn't give a damn about house-elves. I only said that her attitude towards Kreacher was at the moment of OotP is hypocritical. As for other elves it's a bit more complicated than that. Her indignation on Winky's behalf for instance was quite genuine, but again! she failed to recognise her feeling for the Crouches for what they were, and blamed Winky's unhappiness on her being "brain-washed". Well, she might be brainwashed, but it doesn't make her grief any less acute. Sophierom: > I'd argue that Hermione steps up to defend Kreacher (and she continues > to do so, despite the fact that he calls her a Mudblood on several > occasions) because she knows what it's like to be thought of as a > "nutter" for not being "normal". Granted, she can't understand > Kreacher's point of view, conceding to Ron that Kreacher "is a bit > strange," but the fact that she's standing up for him suggests she is > concerned about his feelings. She doesn't understand his feelings; a_svirn: And what is so difficult about Kreacher's point of view to understand? It's not like his feelings about the whole situation are very complex. Intense, yes. Deep, ? yes. But not terribly difficult to grasp. You certainly don't require a degree in Psychology to recognise pure hatred, humiliation, grief and longing. If you want to, that is. Of course if you don't, well, you just dismiss it as "strangeness". Sophierom: > I'm taking a bit of a leap here, but I think if we look at Hermione's > entire character and not just her interaction with the house- elves, we > can begin to see a young woman who is grappling with issues of > identity and culture and who believes that she can understand the > house-elf plight because of her own struggles to fit into Wizarding > culture. Note that we are first introduced to the term "mudblood" in > the same book (CoS) that introduces us to house-elves. I don't think > this was coincidental. a_svirn: Ah, but doesn't her "interaction with the house-elves" tells us volumes about her character? I think it is best summed up by Shakespearian phrase about Longeville "Too sharp a wit mutch'd with too blunt a will". A very, very dangerous combination. She might be struggling with "issues" of identity and such, but she is not really interested in *persons*. She applies her "blunt will" to fulfil her agenda and dismisses anything that doesn't quite fit. Sophierom: > > So, I don't think it's fair to label Hermione a callous hypocrite who > doesn't give a damn about the house-elves. I think she's slowly > learning how to be empathetic. At the age of 15, she's gotten to the > point where she can say, I understand how I would feel in this > situation. I'd hate to be a house-elf, looked down upon and > mistreated because of who I am. Therefore, they must want what I > want: my definition of respect and freedom. a_svirn: Doesn't look like she's got really far at the ripe age of 15, does it? Especially if you compare her progress in empathy with her other achievements. Still I hope you are right and she'll learn. a_svirn From DANCERWH86 at aol.com Tue May 17 16:10:23 2005 From: DANCERWH86 at aol.com (DANCERWH86 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 12:10:23 -0400 Subject: Lily being blind In-Reply-To: <1116332944.29279.21069.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1116332944.29279.21069.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <8C7291210BEAC78-B7C-30958@mblk-r37.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129084 Chys wrote: <<<>>> To me it always seemed like when people mention the eye thing it's a very touching, usually quite sad sort of reminiscents of Lily. Now it's always been assumed its this way because of the fact she is dead and was murdered. It would add interesting depth to this comment. I think its as valid a theory as any and interesting as well (in a fanon sense even if it doesn't come to furition in canon). The blindness factor would also lend itself in some ways to the theory that Lily was a Seer (which I believe a few people have mentioned in that past). I know the seers we've seen haven't been blind, but in many mythologies (especially ancient greek and roman) seers are depicted as being blind. Just a thought to throw another log on this theoretical fire :) . <<>> >From what I know of blind people (which isn't a lot aside from knowing a few people who are...in other words I am in no means a doctor), you're right that the sunglasses thing is dependent on the cause. Sometimes their eyes are sensitive to UV light especially if the blindness resulted from chemical burn or injury (or so I am told) and this is the main reason for the sunglasses. Perhaps if her blindness is related to the idea that she may have been a seer as some have stated (wow that's a lot of conjecture together) then perhaps she doesn't have any of these effects. Also if it was magical induced blindness as a result from being a seer, then she might not have appeared to be what we typically think of blind. Hence her eyes look 'normal' and focused in the photographs even if they aren't. I also agree with the idea that the mirror would show Harry what he wants and knows so if he didn't know these things it wouldn't be visible. Just some thoughts about this though. I really have no proof or anything more specific to canon. It would be an interesting plot device though...Pretty Original. Lindsay ~~~~~ Me: I adore having a private bath...I would die if we had communal bathrooms/showers Justine: hahaha ohh i know Me: Mine may be the size of a closet and my closet may be a metal bar next to the sink but i like it better Justine: lol it works and 'thats hott' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 17 16:14:16 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:14:16 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > > > > I always sort of assumed that DD meant something like "I thought > > Professor Snape could muster his feelings about your father, so that > > they wouldn't get in the way of business". In other words, DD though > > him capable to adapt the attitude Snape himself advocated during his > > Occlumency lessons. > > > > a_svirn > > Lupinlore: > Yeah, I initially thought that too, svirn. It accords with Option #1 > in the original post (at least I think it does). But the more I think > of it the less sense it seems to make. I mean, what in the world > (wizarding or otherwise) would lead DD to think Snape could do such a > thing on demand? You have a man who rages, smolders, and all but goes > into convulsions over Harry and his activities, yet you think that > just because it's an emergency and you ask it of him he's going to be > able to put all that aside and work with the boy in a very "intimate" > activity like Occlumency training? It is also the man who is supposed to be a "superb Ocllumence". Well, he has to be, because whenever his loyalties lie, he is successfully deceiving at least one of the two most powerful wizards in the Potterverse (if not both of them). And doesn't the first requirement for Occlumency is the ability to detach oneself from one's emotions? If Snape is capable to achieve this with LV, surely he can handle Harry? And if he can't it makes one really wonder about his motivations. Personally, I think that he perfectly able to "overcome his emotions" in an emergency and that he staged the whole episode with the Pensieve. a_svirn From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Tue May 17 16:30:03 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:30:03 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy (spoilers for FAQ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: Max wrote: > > Secondly, I don't think we can assume that the rebound effect only > > occurs when one sacrifices themselves for a child. The love for a > > child is certainly very deep and unique, but love for a spouse, > > parent or other family member can be just as powerful. > > Hickengruendler responed: > > And there I disagree. I can't really say why, since I'm aware that > there is nothing in canon that explicitly states this. All I can say > is, that from reading the books I got the impression, that it is > something special that it was a parent, who sacrificed herself for > Harry. But we will see if this is further explained in the later > books. But note that JKR's poll answer at least doesn't contradict > this, when saying, that Frank and Alice could have sacrificed > themselves for Neville the same way Lily did for Harry, and the > curse would have rebounded as well. There is no mention of Gran or > Great Uncle Algie doing so. (Of course I know that it's entirely > possible that this was just to make the answer at least a bit > shorter ;-) ). > > Hickengruendler Max responds: Even if you're right and the sacrifice has to be made by a parent to save a child in order to activate the ancient magic, it still doesn't explain the complete absence of any similar events in wizarding history. This simply can't be the first time a parent has jumped in front of an AK curse in an attempt to save their child (whether the curse was thrown by a dark lord, a villain, a deranged family member, or whoever). The situation would be more rare certainly, but not unheard of. That's my opinion, anyway. :) Max From scolere at gmail.com Tue May 17 16:32:47 2005 From: scolere at gmail.com (Sass) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:32:47 +0100 Subject: Lilly being blind (Long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129087 > wrote: > > What is Lily's big secret? > > She was blind. OK, I think I got the attribution right this time ! (I've apologised to Barmaid for my genuine mistake in misattributing something to her - I was in too much of a rush owing to my PC having been on the fritz and I wanted to get the message posted before it crashed again !) With regard to this, or rather, with regard to the importance of Lily's (and Harry's) eyes, I was reading Patrick Curry's book, *Defending Middle-earth*today, and something caught my eye (oops ! Sorry, no pun intended) which I think might be of interest and possibly even important... Curry is talking about how the Elves of Middle-earth are humanoid/chthonic, and mentions that when Frodo, who's been injured by a Nazgul knife, sees Glorfindel the Elf as "a shining figure of white light", and that Gandalf later explains to Frodo that the High Elves (such as Glorfindel) "live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power." (*LotR*, 'Many Meetings' Book 1) Curry goes on to say that "the Elves, as a race of beings [...] exist both within Tolkien's world and outside it, in the worlds of cultural, historical and religious experience, survive from the 'mythological days' when humans (or beings in human form that we recognise as, in some non-trivial way, ourselves) were not just the passive Cartesian objects of light and sight, but were equally its subjects and agents. As such, the Elves remind us of ourselves before 'the Nothing' [...] came to deaden, and our eyes, rather than being merely the receptors of light but also, in some more than narrowly metaphorical sense, emitted it. After all, we still rightly speak of someone's eyes, in moments of being fully alive, as shining." (*Defending Middle-earth*, p. 138) So my speculation is that Lily's eyes can emit light and allow her to do magic or something similar, because she hasn't been deadened by "the Nothing"; she isn't a "passive Cartesian object of light and sight", but has a power in her eyes, which Harry has inherited... (I don't have any kind of acronym for this - if it's obligatory to have one, I'll leave it to someone else to create one for my "theory"...) Sass -- "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sophierom at yahoo.com Tue May 17 16:57:08 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:57:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(was:Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129088 > a_svirn: > > I didn't say that she is "callous" hypocrite who doesn't give a damn > about house-elves. I only said that her attitude towards Kreacher > was at the moment of OotP is hypocritical. Sophierom now: To play devil's advocate ... :-D Actually, this is what you said: "She doesn't give a damn about Kreacher. She is neither interested in him, nor does she even see him as a person. He is just a point in her agenda, or an object of her crusade. I find this attitude hypocritical" (post 129035). You're right; you never used the word "callous." But to argue that Hermione doesn't "see him as a person" sounds, to me, synonymous with arguing that she's being callous. Forgive me if I misinterpreted. > Sophierom in an earlier post: > > > I'd argue that Hermione steps up to defend Kreacher (and she > continues > > to do so, despite the fact that he calls her a Mudblood on several > > occasions) because she knows what it's like to be thought of as a > > "nutter" for not being "normal". Granted, she can't understand > > Kreacher's point of view, conceding to Ron that Kreacher "is a bit > > strange," but the fact that she's standing up for him suggests she > is > > concerned about his feelings. She doesn't understand his feelings; > > a_svirn responded: > > And what is so difficult about Kreacher's point of view to > understand? It's not like his feelings about the whole situation are > very complex. Intense, yes. Deep, ? yes. But not terribly difficult > to grasp. You certainly don't require a degree in Psychology to > recognise pure hatred, humiliation, grief and longing. If you want > to, that is. Of course if you don't, well, you just dismiss it > as "strangeness". Sophierom: I don't think Hermione has a problem recognizing those emotions. The thing that's difficult for her to understand is why the house-elves, particularly Kreacher, would be so loyal to people who mistreat them and belittle them. For Hermione, loyalty is something reserved for those who offer her the respect she feels she deserves. For Kreacher, I would suspect loyalty is something given without condition, for loyalty and service are what define him as a house-elf. This is a major cultural gap, and I think it is complex. Often, Western society tends to assume that certain values are universal, but in fact, other societies often place different emphasis on service, individualism, duty, and loyalty. So, while those concepts in and of themselves may not be difficult to grasp, what is difficult is understanding how particular cultures value those concepts and why they give them that value. If you find it easy to explain how and why different cultures prioritize, then perhaps that's because you've had more experience with cultural difference and diversity. But I don't think it's easy for most people (teenagers or adults) to understand fully why people from different cultures make the choices they do. So again, it's not that Hermione can't recognize Kreacher's emotions; it's that she can't understand why he is so loyal to the Black family and therefore so bitter toward the new residents of Grimmauld Place. Again, from her perspective, the Blacks did nothing to gain Kreacher's loyalty; from his perspective, perhaps, there was never any question of loyalty being gained. It was automatic. > a_svirn: > > Ah, but doesn't her "interaction with the house-elves" tells us > volumes about her character? I think it is best summed up by > Shakespearian phrase about Longeville "Too sharp a wit mutch'd with > too blunt a will". A very, very dangerous combination. She might be > struggling with "issues" of identity and such, but she is not really > interested in *persons*. She applies her "blunt will" to fulfil her > agenda and dismisses anything that doesn't quite fit. Sophierom: That's a great quote, and very appropriate, I think. Hermione's methods are indeed "too blunt." Again, I would argue that's because she can't get past the idea that she would never want to be in the position of the house-elves. She can only imagine her own reactions to the house-elves' experiences. This is why I think we need to look at the bigger-picture Hermione. (Yes, her interactions with the house-elves tell us something about Hermione's character, but she is too complex a character, I'd argue, to be summed up only through her interactions.) We need to ask WHY Hermione has "too blunt a will" in this case. Is it because she wants to gain a name for herself as liberator of the house-elves? We've seen no indication of that. Is it because she wants to gain favor from others? Obviously the house-elves don't like her much, and her friends think she's crazy. So why would she do this? Motivations DO matter. I would argue that Hermione has "too blunt a will" because, once again, she knows what it's like to be marginalized. And at this point in her life, the only way she knows how to cope with this is to assert herself. She seems to think that the answer is the same for the house-elves. She's wrong; her way is not THE way. But hopefully, she's learning. > a_svirn: > > Doesn't look like she's got really far at the ripe age of 15, does > it? Especially if you compare her progress in empathy with her other > achievements. Still I hope you are right and she'll learn. Sophierom: Again, playing devil's advocate ...;-D Ripe age of 15? Sirius is more than twice her age, and he's not empathetic. As Dumbledore says at the end of OotP: Hermione "was quite right, Harry ... I warned Sirius when we adopted twelve Grimmauld Place as our headquarters that Kreacher must be treated with kindness and respect. I also told him that Kreacher could be dangerous to us. I do not think that Sirius took me very seriously, or that he ever saw Kreacher as a being with feelings as acute as a human's" (Am. ed., 832). As for comparing Hermione's slow developing empathy with her other accomplishments, Hermione herself notes at the end of PS/SS: "Books! And cleverness! There are more important things" (Am. ed., 287). Emotional maturity is much more difficult to achieve than intellectual maturity. Again, I find it hard to fault Hermione too much because even though she's failing at this point, she's trying, and at the age of 15, that counts for something. As someone who works with teenagers, I know that it's all too "cool" to be apathetic. It would be easier to be like Ron, who shrugs and says "nutters." Hermione recognizes a real problem and attempts to solve it. Good for her, I say. Yes, she doesn't do a good job. Yes, she has much to learn. But I would hope that Rowling's message isn't that Hermione is a hypocrite for trying to change the world; I'd hope that her message is that changing the world is difficult, and it requires us to change ourselves as much as it requires us to change others. Thanks for the very thought-provoking debate! All the best, Sophie From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 17 16:59:08 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 16:59:08 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ poll -- Neville's potential as prophecy boy/Random Thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" wrote: > > Sooo... I suppose there is *something* about Harry that made Voldy > choose him. Otherwise it wasn't a choice on Voldy's part, it was > just bad luck (which would be unsatisfying for me). It has to be > something about the history of the parents, surely? How else could > Voldy differentiate between two 15 month-old boys he had never met? > Tonks: Why LV chose Harry. Some options: 1. Harry was the last one born, so his DOB is closer to the end of July than Neville. 2. Harry represents what LV hates most, himself, a product of a marriage between a Muggle and a Pure Blood. 3. Think of the bad press if LV killed the baby of a Pure Blood family. This might not go over well with his followers, especially if they ever found out that LV was a half-blood. Killing Neville would be a really bad political move. 4. Maybe there was something about Lily too. Something that was passed on to her son through her Muggle family line, maybe this something is what makes Harry special. (What was Harry's Muggle grandfather's first name?) ---- Random Thoughts: Something about Harry: I wonder if GG is the decendant of some really old wizard from the Middle East. With this old wizard representing Abraham and GG representing King David. The bible says that there is about 1000 years between Abraham and David and 42 generations between Abraham and Jesus, with David being in the second third. So I wonder if there are 28 generations between GG and Harry. Harry being in the House and line of GG. Jesus was in the House and line of David. Jesus was the Anointed One, the Chosen One. The introduction to the book of Matthew calls Jesus "the Messiah, the royal anointed one". Harry??? Random thought #2: Why does DD have so many names? Does he have one for each of his many incarnations?? Tonks_op From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 17 17:02:00 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:02:00 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129090 a_svirn: > It is also the man who is supposed to be a "superb Ocllumence". > Well, he has to be, because whenever his loyalties lie, he is > successfully deceiving at least one of the two most powerful > wizards in the Potterverse (if not both of them). And doesn't the > first requirement for Occlumency is the ability to detach oneself > from one's emotions? If Snape is capable to achieve this with LV, > surely he can handle Harry? And if he can't it makes one really > wonder about his motivations. > Personally, I think that he perfectly able to "overcome his > emotions" in an emergency and that he staged the whole episode with > the Pensieve. SSSusan: The other oft-cited scene where Snape lets loose with his emotions is the scene in PoA after he learns Sirius has escaped and he suspects Harry of being involved. He's right angry there, and there's no containing his emotions. In fact, Fudge seems truly appalled by the venom of Snape's outburst (says "the fellow seems quite unbalanced"). I'm curious whether you see this as also a place where Snape was play-acting? I'm not trying to *disagree* with you about the Pensieve scene; I'm just genuinely curious what you make of our Potions Master in the PoA scene and whether you think he was acting or that it was a true exception to his being able to control his emotions. You make a good point that Snape has told us a successful Occlumens must be able to control his emotions, and, well, Snape *is* still alive, so he must be able to do that at times. Siriusly Snapey Susan From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 17 17:11:34 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:11:34 -0000 Subject: FILK: Whatever Became of Barty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129091 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "athene42100" wrote: > I wrote this filk about Barty Crouch, Sr. aaaages ago, but never > posted it anywhere but my LJ. This is to the tune of Tom Lehrer's > "Whatever Became of Hubert?" I have searched for a MIDI or mp3 or > other sound file, but none seem to exist online. > > > > Whatever became of Barty? > What caused him to disappear? > Once his prospects were grand, > And with wand in his hand > He guaranteed his career. > > Once the future Minister QED, > Ah, but now his son's hobby impedes, he > Is no longer a good candidate, > For Junior it's too little too late. > > "We must confess this scandal, Barty," > Says each newspaper reader. > "Has made us wary of your party, > Please don't be our leader." > > Whatever became of you, Barty? > What office do you now hold? > Is it big? Is it grand? > Do you now rule the land? > Does the world in your hand > Unfold? > > Does Percy, devoting his life to your cause > Know the things you have done and the breaks in your laws? > Are you the newest convert to "spew"? > Barty, what happened to you? Barty replies: Confound my boring career! For one wonderful, soul-wrenching kiss I knew incomparable bliss, But now I feel sort of queer From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 17 17:13:59 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:13:59 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129092 Lupinlore: I mean, what in the world > (wizarding or otherwise) would lead DD to think Snape could do such a thing on demand? You have a man who rages, smolders, and all but goes into convulsions over Harry and his activities, yet you think that just because it's an emergency and you ask it of him he's going to be able to put all that aside and work with the boy in a very "intimate" activity like Occlumency training? That is an extraordinarily...well...ignorant view of human nature, even for an elderly man who has perhaps too positive a view of the world and who admits to making mistakes. Pippin: The young often do not realize that even their deepest feelings may prove transitory, nor have they experience that time heals all wounds. The old, on the other hand, may forget that this is not always the case. Dumbledore has lived long enough to see many things he once thought were imperishable pass away. Then there's the additional complication that Snape is an actor and has the ability (and perhaps the tendency) to hype even genuine feelings for effect. Like the rest of us, Dumbledore may not be sure how much of Snape's ranting he ought to take seriously -- in fact Snape himself may be uncertain of this. Snape might cling to the illusion, like many another victim of compulsion, that he can quit bullying Harry when ever he wants. Pippin From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 17 17:23:41 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:23:41 -0000 Subject: Neville protected too? Re: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129093 Captain SSSusan strikes a seaworthy pose and finishes her speech: > "Hee, I'll look forward to that change, Neri. In the > meantime, Jen & I and any others who think we're not totally bonkers are welcome to hang out on the dinghy." Potioncat teeters on the brow...(that's a nautical term, but she doesn't know if it's the right term) "Are there anymore margaritas?" SSSusan frowns, this is a side of Potioncat she hadn't expected, "Is there anymore can(n)on?" Potioncat smiles. "Well, assuming that both boys were being protected. And assuming that perhaps even after the attack, protection was still being given to both boys. And you know I think the turban dream is a sort of indication that Harry has a memory of Snape from his younger years...." Seeing SSSusan's somewhat impatient nod, she went on: This is a scene that's been discussed in the different Longbottom torture theories, wondering if Snape appeared at the Longbottom house during the torture and Neville has a memory of it. PoA chapter 7: Professor Lupin has just realeased Boggart!Snape "...Professor Snape stepped out, his eyes flashing at Neville. Neville backed away, his wand up, mouthing wordlessly. Snape was bearing down upon him, reaching inside his robes..." Almost everyone wonders why Snape was reaching for his wand...maybe he wasn't reaching for his wand, he was reaching for the Dragon Blood potion/ointment. What if, both boys have a memory of Snape from when they were very small? A memory of an unpleasnt event, that was for a good reason? I mean, if one of the uses of dragon blood is oven cleaner, can you imagine what the ointment would be like? SSSusan lifts the pitcher and pours, "It's isn't canon, but it's something..." Potioncat smiles and takes a seat. From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue May 17 17:32:31 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:32:31 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129094 > a_svirn: > > It is also the man who is supposed to be a "superb Ocllumence". > > Well, he has to be, because whenever his loyalties lie, he is > > successfully deceiving at least one of the two most powerful > > wizards in the Potterverse (if not both of them). And doesn't the > > first requirement for Occlumency is the ability to detach oneself > > from one's emotions? If Snape is capable to achieve this with LV, > > surely he can handle Harry? And if he can't it makes one really > > wonder about his motivations. > > Personally, I think that he perfectly able to "overcome his > > emotions" in an emergency and that he staged the whole episode with > > the Pensieve. > > > SSSusan: > The other oft-cited scene where Snape lets loose with his emotions is > the scene in PoA after he learns Sirius has escaped and he suspects > Harry of being involved. He's right angry there, and there's no > containing his emotions. In fact, Fudge seems truly appalled by the > venom of Snape's outburst (says "the fellow seems quite > unbalanced"). I'm curious whether you see this as also a place where > Snape was play-acting? > > I'm not trying to *disagree* with you about the Pensieve scene; I'm > just genuinely curious what you make of our Potions Master in the PoA > scene and whether you think he was acting or that it was a true > exception to his being able to control his emotions. You make a good > point that Snape has told us a successful Occlumens must be able to > control his emotions, and, well, Snape *is* still alive, so he must > be able to do that at times. > Tammy: I'll take a stab at that one. I think that Snape is simplifying Occlumency for Harry's sake. Snape also says that you need to "shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie." I think that Snape is a master of that - whatever feelings he has against VOLDEMORT or the other DE's, or whatever good feelings he has towards Dumbledore. He can mask those, and control those. Snape is telling Harry he needs to controll all of his emotions simply because all of Harry's emotions betray him and make him vulnerable. But with Snape the anti-Harry, anti-James, anti-Remus, and anti-Sirius feelings work to his benefit (whether he's actively spying or not, he still keeps up the "role" as a former DE, friend to Lucius, etc). If Lucius or Bella or Voldie probe into Snape's mind and find no emotions whatsoever, then they would know he's faking it. If they probe in there and find Snape imagining different ways to poison precious Potter or imagining Sirius getting his soul sucked out, that's perfectly normal for someone of Snape's status. Therefore Snape doesn't bother to try to control those feelings. -Tammy From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 17 17:46:42 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:46:42 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129095 All right everyone, if you're reading OoP in preparation for HBP, raise your hand. I'm all the way to page 100, myself. Not sure this is so much something to discuss, as it is "things that jump out", now that we've dissected the plot, teased information out of JKR, and begun to anticipate or dread HBP. But I found these three things all on the same page! Chapter 6 p 100/101 in my US copy. The kids are discussing what they've learned: They know there's a weapon and at one point Ron asks, "But there can't be anyting worse than the Avada Kedavra curse, can there?" said Ron. "What's worse than death?" Then the twins comment that power isn't tied to size and then mention the effects of Ginny's Bat-Bogey Hex. Interesting that the "weapon", the "worse than death" and the Bat-Bogey Hex will all play a part on that night at the DoM. And then, another dream, Hagrid is in this dream. Hagrid had been no where about prior to this. Harry was listening for Mrs. Weasley's footsteps so he would know when it was safe to talk: "In fact many- legged creatures were cantering softly up and down outside the bedroom door, .... And Harry saw the creatures had cannons for heads and were wheeling to face him...He ducked..." Do you suppose that is actually JKR's dream and those many-legged, can (n)on headed creatures were us? Potioncat, who may change her name to PollyannaCat, because she's sure when all is said and done, it will still be a great series of books. From stanleys at sbcglobal.net Tue May 17 17:48:23 2005 From: stanleys at sbcglobal.net (suehpfan) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:48:23 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: a_svirn: It is also the man who is supposed to be a "superb Ocllumence". Well, he has to be, because whenever his loyalties lie, he is successfully deceiving at least one of the two most powerful wizards in the Potterverse (if not both of them). And doesn't the first requirement for Occlumency is the ability to detach oneself from one's emotions? If Snape is capable to achieve this with LV, surely he can handle Harry? And if he can't it makes one really wonder about his motivations. Personally, I think that he perfectly able to "overcome his emotions" in an emergency and that he staged the whole episode with the Pensieve. SSSusan: The other oft-cited scene where Snape lets loose with his emotions is the scene in PoA after he learns Sirius has escaped and he suspects Harry of being involved. He's right angry there, and there's no containing his emotions. In fact, Fudge seems truly appalled by the venom of Snape's outburst (says "the fellow seems quite unbalanced"). I'm curious whether you see this as also a place where Snape was play-acting? I'm not trying to *disagree* with you about the Pensieve scene; I'm just genuinely curious what you make of our Potions Master in the PoA scene and whether you think he was acting or that it was a true exception to his being able to control his emotions. You make a good point that Snape has told us a successful Occlumens must be able to control his emotions, and, well, Snape *is* still alive, so he must be able to do that at times. Sue(hpfan) now: I think Snape is able to control his emotions when he has to. Losing control is a choice (as I continue to remind my 8 year old :p). Some times it takes nerves of steal to keep it together but as SSS says, he must have them or he would be dead. IMHO, Snape would do just about anything to keep Harry from finding out how truly important he is to the WW. As a matter of fact he takes every opportunity to tell him "you are niether special nor important..." Ootp pg 591 US. Which is completely ridiculous as Harry and Snape both know. If he weren't special or important he wouldn't be taking Occulmency lessons. As far as being really angry when he pulled Harry out of the Pensieve, I think he was. I don't know whether I believe Snape left the Pensieve out on purpose or not. I suspect he did, even if it was subconcious. If those memories were his most sacred to protect, he must believe Harry is capable of getting to them by breaking through his mental barrier which would lend credence to Snape's beliefs about Harry's power. What better way to give insight into Harry's power but to see his father as the "better" (in a power sense only) wizard. To sum up my ramblings, I don't think Snape planned the Pensieve scene, didn't keep it from happening yes, planned it? No. I do think he chose to react the way he did. He wants Harry to be afraid of him. I believe Snape knows Harry is a more powerful wizard than he is and the older Harry gets, the more dangerous Harry becomes. It seems to me what really makes Snape angry is when he loses control of a situation ie.: when Sirius escaped, he believed he was in control and was going to see Sirius destroyed. He was furious about the failure of his plan. The same is true of the Pensieve scene. He removed those memories in an attempt to control what Harry could possibly access and was thwarted. I think Snape's Occlumency lessons will come back to haunt him just as Crouch!Moody's lessons on throwing off the Imperius curse did. Sue(hpfan) who believes Harry mastered Occlumency (even if he doesn't know it yet) despite Snape, not because of him. And that Occlumency never would/will help against Voldemort because of the link between the two. From feenyjam at msu.edu Tue May 17 18:06:44 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:06:44 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > All right everyone, if you're reading OoP in preparation for HBP, raise > your hand. > > I'm all the way to page 100, myself. Not sure this is so much something > to discuss, as it is "things that jump out", now that we've dissected > the plot, teased information out of JKR, and begun to anticipate or > dread HBP. > > But I found these three things all on the same page! > > Chapter 6 p 100/101 in my US copy. The kids are discussing what they've > learned: > > They know there's a weapon and at one point Ron asks, "But there can't > be anyting worse than the Avada Kedavra curse, can there?" said > Ron. "What's worse than death?" > > Then the twins comment that power isn't tied to size and then mention > the effects of Ginny's Bat-Bogey Hex. > > Interesting that the "weapon", the "worse than death" and the Bat- Bogey > Hex will all play a part on that night at the DoM. > > And then, another dream, Hagrid is in this dream. Hagrid had been no > where about prior to this. Harry was listening for Mrs. Weasley's > footsteps so he would know when it was safe to talk: "In fact many- > legged creatures were cantering softly up and down outside the bedroom > door, .... And Harry saw the creatures had cannons for heads and were > wheeling to face him...He ducked..." > > Do you suppose that is actually JKR's dream and those many-legged, can > (n)on headed creatures were us? > > Potioncat, who may change her name to PollyannaCat, because she's sure > when all is said and done, it will still be a great series of books. Greenfirespike says: Potioncat, I am at the same page you are in my rereading, and I noticed a few things also... 1) the kids estimate that there are only 12 DEs, but Harry doesn't correct them (this fits with the thread about the older DE's and how many there are). 2) how, again does Hegwig know where R/H/S all are. When Harry gets to #12, Hegwig is already there. Not much of a secret headquaters if an owl can make its way there w/o prior knowledge of where they are. 3) Hermione said that DD started the original OP, so why did DD feel the need to create a secret society to fight LV, when most everything we know says that the WW was well aware who LV was during VW1. Was the MoM so bad (this we have lots of cannon to support) that the OP was necessary. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue May 17 18:24:48 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 18:24:48 -0000 Subject: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum -- FAQ Poll Spoiler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129098 > Neri: > All this is well and good, but as far as I understand, the only > piece of canon linking Harry's protection to dragon blood is the > expression "ancient magic", which is mentioned once regarding the > protection of dragons. So "ancient magic" is your only substantial > cannon connection with dragons. So IMO if you want to > link dragon blood to these specific protections, then you have > some basis in canon, but if you want to link dragon blood to other > protections, then you are stretching canon thinner and thinner. Jen: *hangs head for a brief moment* "Guilty as charged Sir Neri. There's a fine line between cobbling together canon support and indulging in flights of fancy." Besides, I don't want to chalk up every heroic deed on Harry's part to a dragon ointment, so I'll stop meandering down that path for the moment. ;) You mentioned that the only canon support is the link between dragons and the 'ancient magic' that imbues their hides, and I must protest that point! SSSusan already addressed this most succintly in #129079 and Potioncat elaborated some new canon in #129093, but I wanted to follow-up on this from the original DRIBBLE: 1) Harry's eyes are the most important bit of canon for the original DRIBBLE in my view. First, here's what Sirius tells Harry in GOF: "I was going to suggest the a Conjunctivitis Curse, as a dragon's eyes are its weakest point." (chap. 23, p. 406 US) This comment bears a striking resemblance to JKR's oft-quoted comment regarding Harry's eyes: "She's....outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his glasses. 'Don't they understand that they are the clue to his vulnerability?' 2) There is some canon that Harry's eyes were weakened to the point of needing glasses for reasons other than genetics. For one, Harry has the exact same "green, almond-shaped eyes" as Lily and yet he has to wear glasses and she doesn't. Also, the only scene where James is wearing glasses is in the Mirror of Erised, which we're led to believe is *Harry's* projected representation of a father, not a factual representation. It makes sense Harry would desire to see a father who looks much like himself, someone he immediately identifies with. But there's no mention of James wearing glasses in the Pensieve scene, even though there's a long description of his physical features. A dragon-blood potion or ointment could have weakened Harry's eyesight while providing protection. 3) Then of course there's the piece Susan mentioned about the 12 uses for dragon blood which have yet to be explored in canon. Maybe it was just a fun factoid to flesh out the DD character, but I'd like to see it play a more significant role. > Neri: > Oh, I could add an item or three to this list. options> All these options have considerably more canon than dragon > blood, and I haven't even used any meta-thinking yet. Jen, Well, *considerably more* canon support is in the eye of the beholder ;), but just for the record, I've never quibbled at all with Harry being primarily protected by the blood sacrifice/ancient magic which seems to be the core of the series. And of course there's no arguing Harry's training (and the help of many people along the way) has been the basis for his success, along with an extraordinary amount of luck. After all, JKR attributes at least part of her own success to luck, why not make her protagonist the same? Neri: > I'm also sure that DD's clever ideas and Hogwarts' protections also > factor in this, but I still don't see any reason to assume they > come in the form of an "ancient magic" ointment, especially one > that is applied by Snape. The very little we know about ancient > magic is that it requires things like Love, Sacrifice and blood > relation. Now, Snape claims he can brew Glory and stopper Death > (although he somehow never gets to actually demonstrating these > abilities) but I suspect that Love and Sacrifice are a bit out of > his range, and he's not(canonically) Harry's relative. Jen: No, I don't suppose Snape could be accused of making love sacrifices for anyone, at least not up to this point. But I don't view the dragon ointment itself as a form of 'ancient magic'. Perhaps dragon hides are imbued with a protection attributed to ancient magic, but if anyone is making a sacrifice here it would be the dragon, not Snape! To me Snape's role has less to do with Harry and more to do with his loyalty to Dumbledore. The ointment is simply one of the uses of dragon blood which Dumbledore, Snape and Hagrid concoct to their (and Harry's) advantage in the fight against Voldemort. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 17 19:18:02 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 19:18:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129099 Thanks for the very thought-provoking debate! > > All the best, > Sophie a_svirn now: It sounds as if you are going to close the discussion, but I am not ready yet! Maybe it's immature of me ;-) > Sophierom: > > I don't think Hermione has a problem recognizing those emotions. The > thing that's difficult for her to understand is why the house- elves, > particularly Kreacher, would be so loyal to people who mistreat them > and belittle them. For Hermione, loyalty is something reserved for > those who offer her the respect she feels she deserves. For Kreacher, > I would suspect loyalty is something given without condition, for > loyalty and service are what define him as a house-elf. This is a > major cultural gap, and I think it is complex. Often, Western society > tends to assume that certain values are universal, but in fact, other > societies often place different emphasis on service, individualism, > duty, and loyalty. So, while those concepts in and of themselves may > not be difficult to grasp, what is difficult is understanding how > particular cultures value those concepts and why they give them that > value. If you find it easy to explain how and why different cultures > prioritize, then perhaps that's because you've had more experience > with cultural difference and diversity. But I don't think it's easy > for most people (teenagers or adults) to understand fully why people > from different cultures make the choices they do. So again, it's > not that Hermione can't recognize Kreacher's emotions; it's > that she can't understand why he is so loyal to the Black family and > therefore so bitter toward the new residents of Grimmauld Place. > Again, from her perspective, the Blacks did nothing to gain Kreacher's > loyalty; from his perspective, perhaps, there was never any question > of loyalty being gained. It was automatic. a_svirn: I couldn't agree more with everything you are saying about cultural diversity and a trouble people generally having in understanding it. My point is that Hermione doesn't TRY to understand. She just dismisses it. > Sophierom: > ...I think we need to look > at the bigger-picture Hermione. (Yes, her interactions with the > house-elves tell us something about Hermione's character, but she > is too complex a character, I'd argue, to be summed up only through > her interactions.) a_svirn: How else you can judge one's character if not through one's interactions? It's not like we are capable of Legilimency > Sophierom: We need to ask WHY Hermione has "too > blunt a will" in this case. Is it because she wants to gain a name > for herself as liberator of the house-elves? We've seen no indication > of that. a_svirn: Yes, I think, we have. First of all the way she goes about the business of defending Elves. After an all too brief hunger strike she spends extra hours in the library. One would have thought she is doing what she usually does best ? researching, but no! She is making the SPEW badges. She draws up a list of members and makes Harry and Ron treasurer and secretary. Strange, isn't it? She delights in developing this stupid bureaucracy and inventing ridiculous names yet she doesn't spare even a fleeting thought on how elves come to be enslaved and what kind magic is involved. I do think it's because she doesn't really interested in elves; she just wants to prove her point. And then in the OotP when they are discussing future careers she confesses that she is not really interested in Banking or in being an Auror, but wants to do something *really* worthwhile, like continuing the SPEW onto the new level. It does look like she sees herself as a budding politician and wants to capitalize on the house-elves situation. > Sophierom: > > Again, playing devil's advocate ...;-D Ripe age of 15? Sirius is more > than twice her age, and he's not empathetic. a_svirn: Well, Sirius is not empathetic period, so he's not a really good example. Had he lived a hundred, he would still have been less than empathetic. Sophierom: As someone who works with teenagers, > I know that it's all too "cool" to be apathetic. It would be easier > to be like Ron, who shrugs and says "nutters." a_svirn: Actually I don't think that Ron's being is apathetic. I think that his or Harry's attitude to elves much more mature, in fact, than Hermione's, because they, and especially Harry, do see elves as persons. I think it's through Harry, not through Hermione JKR is trying to convey her message. Harry may not pause to rationalise his own behaviour and analyse social "issues" but he reacts to elves as he would to other individuals. Dobby, for instance, he likes. He may be furious with him on occasion or quarrel with him, but that's how he would behave with his human friends too. And they have indeed become friends. In the Christmas Blanket episode Hermione tries to ape the historical exchange of socks between Dobby and Harry, yet she completely misses the true meaning of the event. It is not Harry's "kindness" that matters here, but the fact that Dobby is the one who initiates the whole thing. In doing so he establishes himself ? albeit hesitantly at first ? as a Harry's social equal. Winky ? Harry pities her, of course ? well who wouldn't? But he wants to steer clear off her, because even though he recognises her feeling for what they are ? shame, love, grief ? he also knows that he can't really comfort her. After all, telling her that the world would be a better place without the bunch of Crouches in it isn't really an option. Kreacher ? Harry hates him, because the wretch adds to his beloved godfather's misery. He recognises him as the enemy and he is the only one ? apart from DD ? who senses the potential danger. Again, he sees a person in Kreacher ? an unpleasant one, granted, one he would just as soon not to be acquainted with, but still an individual with feelings. But Hermione does not see Kreacher as a person, I'm afraid. You keep saying that she learns to empathise, but in reality she would treat Winky and Kreacher (and probably even Dobby) with equal "kindness" because for her they a very much one like another. She treats Kreacher rather like a pet; an old one who's outlived his usefulness, but still has a claim on his master's protection. Yet his is not a pet, he IS a person, and his affections cannot be bought with a piece of snack and a nice leather collar. This is very simple really, and something, both Harry and Ron are able to understand. It is a breathtaking arrogance on her part to suppose that she can make up for his pain and humiliation by paltry gifts or sooth his frustration by her oppressive friendliness. Harry might not put it into so many words, but he knows it by instinct. Hermione, I think, is going to learn it hard way. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 17 19:39:30 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 19:39:30 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129100 > > SSSusan: > The other oft-cited scene where Snape lets loose with his emotions is > the scene in PoA after he learns Sirius has escaped and he suspects > Harry of being involved. He's right angry there, and there's no > containing his emotions. In fact, Fudge seems truly appalled by the > venom of Snape's outburst (says "the fellow seems quite > unbalanced"). I'm curious whether you see this as also a place where > Snape was play-acting? > a_svirn: Well there are times to keep a tight hold on one's emotions and there are times to let them go. Obviously in PoA Snape let them go. But you are right it is a very strange episode. I am actually toying with a theory that for some reason, yet to be revealed, Snape deliberately tried to feed Sirius to Dementors before he could have had a chance to speak with DD. And when his plans went awry he just "lost it". Probably not the best solution imaginable but still better be considered "unbalanced", than "capable of the murder". Besides, venomous outbursts *do* come naturally to him. a_svirn From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 17 20:07:29 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 20:07:29 -0000 Subject: Owls' Abilities ( was Re: Random thoughts on OOTP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greenfirespike" wrote: Greenfirespike: > Potioncat, I am at the same page you are in my rereading, and I > noticed a few things also... > 2) how, again does Hegwig know where R/H/S all are. When Harry gets > to #12, Hegwig is already there. Not much of a secret headquaters if > an owl can make its way there w/o prior knowledge of where they are. > Geoff: Going off at a slight tangent, there has been discussion in the past about the owls; whether, for example, they have magical powers to find the people for whom they have messages. one example comes to mind at the beginning of POA when Harry sends Hedwig off with Errol to spend time with the Weasleys and Hedwig then arrives at the "Leaky Cauldron" just after Harry (according to Tom). There also instances where Harry sends her off with messages for Sirius without knowing his precise whereabouts. I don't think there is a breach of security over the whereabouts of 12 Grimmauld Place, I think that there is more to the owls' powers and intelligence than meets the eye.... Thoughts? From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Tue May 17 22:16:27 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:16:27 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest -- JKR's FAQ = Neville (spoiler) off limits Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129102 As you may have guessed, anything relating to the revelations on JKR's site about Neville's role as an also-ran is now off-limits in the prediction contest. Any entry received *before* the FAQ was posted will be honored. Something specific derived from the spoiler is still free game, such as: "when Neville finds out how close he was to being the Anointed One, *he goes nuts, seeks out Voldy-thingy, and tries to AK him, but Voldy's dead mother, who is a ghost, throws herself in front of the AK and is killed again, and thus Neville's AK rebounds, giving LV a lightening- shaped scar and entre into Neville's mind. Then Harry, angry at Neville for trying to steal his thunder, goes after Neville, but Neville's mother throws herself in front of Harry's AK,* etc." TK -- TigerPatronus From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 22:25:29 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:25:29 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129103 Spoiler alert: if you have not read JKR's FAQ poll response, please be advised that there are spoilers thereof herein. * * * * To me the most intriguing part of JKR's FAQ response was the part that touched on the significance of prophecy in her literary world. To wit: "If neither boy was 'pre-ordained' before Voldemort's attack to become his possible vanquisher, then the prophecy (like the one the witches make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had not been made...Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices that had dramatic consequences" and "the prophecy...remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my characters. Prophecies (think of Nostradamus!) are usually open to many interpretations. That is both their strength and their weakness." When I read this I realized I had to reexamine all my assumptions about the prophecy. I also ran to the bookshelf to pull out Macbeth. Think about it: if the prophecy is ambiguous to the characters, then maybe no-one knows what it really means, Dumbledore included. If the prophecy is a catalyst as in Macbeth, it may be deliberately misleading and mischevious. If "destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices" then the whole presentation of a supposedly inevitable prophecy may be the Mother of All Red Herrings. But the most intruiging thing is the Macbeth connection. I don't think JKR was just using the play for the sake of example. If we look at Voldy and Macbeth we notice certain similarities: A powerful man enjoying a time of triumph hears a prophecy about his future that becomes an obsession. Finally he takes matters into his own hands, believing that in doing so he fulfilling the prophecy and ensuring his own triumph. Instead, he sets in motion a chain of events that leads to his destruction. (You could even picture Bellatrix playing Lady Macbeth to Voldy, except he surely doesn't need any urging to shed innocent blood). At the end of Book 5, Voldy is in a similar position to Macbeth after the murders of Duncan and Banquo. Macbeth has tried to fulfill the witches prophecy and has suceeded in becoming King, but he is uneasy and still obsessed with the witches and their oracular power. He seek them out to learn more about his future. Similarly, Voldy has tried to fulfill Sybill's prophecy on his own terms. Despite the disaster that followed, he has succeeded in dodging death and resurrecting a kind of body for himself. Still he is uneasy because he could not kill Harry, and he becomes obsessed with finding out the full contents of the prophecy -- without success, so far. When Macbeth approaches the witches for more information, they encourage him to be bloodthirsty and brutal, assuring him that "none of woman born" can harm him and that he cannot be vanquished till Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane Hill. He takes this to mean that he is indeed invincible and goes on an appalling rampage, killing Macduff's wife and children. This ensures that MacDuff will seek revenge. MacDuff, who came into the world through a caeserean, raises an army, uses tree branches from Birnam wood as camoflauge, and marches to Dunsinane hill, and Macbeth is destroyed. If this same pattern holds true for Voldemort, he will indeed learn the full contents of the prophecy in one of the coming books. What he does will depend upon what he sees in the Rorschach (sp?) blot of the full prophecy. "The prophecy remains ambiguous...to my characters." If his reaction is anything like that of Macbeth, maybe JKR's referenc to a coming "bloodbath" is no joke. So, what about Harry? JKR says: "Harry is propelled into a terrifying position he might never have sought'". Many have wondered why JKR, who places such a high value on choice, would make a prophecy the key to the mystery of Harry and LV. Maybe she did it to show that "Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices." Maybe Harry will end up rejecting the prophecy and the fatalism it proclaims. Maybe he will make his own free choice, based on his own vision and conscience. It would be the biggest paradox of all if, in rejecting the prophecy, Harry makes a choice that ends up destroying Lord Voldemort -- thus fulfilling the prophecy. Fair is foul and foul is fair Hover through the fog and the filthy air Inkling From chspnll at aanet.com.au Tue May 17 22:40:32 2005 From: chspnll at aanet.com.au (saieditor) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:40:32 -0000 Subject: FILK: Whatever Became of Barty? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129104 I have always had a problem with Crouch!Moody. He was *the real McCoy* as a !DADA teacher. I really wonder if he is dead, and I wonder if he will make another appearance. Something doesn't ring true about the nature of Death Eaters and how Crouch!Moody taught DADA saieditor --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "athene42100" wrote: > I wrote this filk about Barty Crouch, Sr. aaaages ago, but never > posted it anywhere but my LJ. This is to the tune of Tom Lehrer's > "Whatever Became of Hubert?" I have searched for a MIDI or mp3 or > other sound file, but none seem to exist online. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 17 22:59:03 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:59:03 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: Inkling: > To me the most intriguing part of JKR's FAQ response was the part that > touched on the significance of prophecy in her literary world. To wit: > > "If neither boy was 'pre-ordained' before Voldemort's attack to become > his possible vanquisher, then the prophecy (like the one the witches > make to Macbeth, if anyone has read the play of the same name) becomes > the catalyst for a situation that would never have occurred if it had > not been made...Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices > that had dramatic consequences" > > and > > "the prophecy...remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my > characters. Prophecies (think of Nostradamus!) are usually open to > many interpretations. That is both their strength and their weakness." > > When I read this I realized I had to reexamine all my assumptions > about the prophecy. I also ran to the bookshelf to pull out Macbeth. Geoff: I don't know whether our thoughts touch base or not but I posted some ramblings involving Macbeth quite recently (but before JKR's references). The thread was "The prophecy - a maverick view" and started at post 128332; it might add an item or so to the mix of ingredients. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 23:32:26 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:32:26 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129106 >>Sophierom: >So again, it's not that Hermione can't recognize Kreacher's emotions; it's that she can't understand why he is so loyal to the Black family and therefore so bitter toward the new residents of Grimmauld Place.< >>a_svirn: >My point is that Hermione doesn't TRY to understand. She just dismisses it.< Betsy (jumping in): I think Hermione does try to understand why Kreacher is the way he is, and she comes to the conclusion that he's been horribly mentally abused. As she tells Ron and Ginny, "...[Kreacher] is not in his right mind, he doesn't know what he's --" (I'll assume she'd have said "saying" or "doing" here). (OotP scholastic p.108) And, frankly, Kreacher is quite obviously suffering from some sort of mental disconnect, so I don't think Hermione is too far off base here. >>Sophierom: >We need to ask WHY Hermione has "too blunt a will" in this case. Is it because she wants to gain a name for herself as liberator of the house-elves? We've seen no indication of that.< >>a_svirn: >Yes, I think, we have. First of all the way she goes about the business of defending Elves. After an all too brief hunger strike she spends extra hours in the library. One would have thought she is doing what she usually does best ? researching, but no! She is making the SPEW badges. She draws up a list of members and makes Harry and Ron treasurer and secretary. Strange, isn't it?< Betsy: Not really. Looking at every other human and/or animal rights organization in the world, a large list of memembers is a prime way of getting some sort of power. No one was going to listen to a little twelve years-old Muggle-born witch, but if the entire student body of Hogwarts started marching for house-elf rights (and perhaps brought about the freedom of the Hogwarts elves) the WW would be forced to sit up and take notice. >>a_svirn: >She delights in developing this stupid bureaucracy and inventing ridiculous names yet she doesn't spare even a fleeting thought on how elves come to be enslaved and what kind magic is involved. I do think it's because she doesn't really interested in elves; she just wants to prove her point.< Betsy: That is her fatal flaw (with more than just the house elves). Hermione sees so clearly, in CoS, how wrong elf enslavement is and how much good SPEW can do she cannot imagine students not wanting to join. And she cannot imagine an elf not wanting to be treated with respect and dignity (as she defines those terms). I imagine she thought Harry and Ron's reluctance was more laziness than anything else. >>a_svirn: >And then in the OotP when they are discussing future careers she confesses that she is not really interested in Banking or in being an Auror, but wants to do something *really* worthwhile, like continuing the SPEW onto the new level. It does look like she sees herself as a budding politician and wants to capitalize on the house- elves situation.< Betsy: Actually, I think Hermione sees herself more as a budding political activist. And I think she's genuinely interested in her cause. I don't think she sees this as merely a way to break into government, but I think she does think (or hope) that she'll be capable of bringing some major changes to the WW. (Which is unfriendly enough to her kind that I don't blame her eagerness to change things one bit.) >>Sophierom: >As someone who works with teenagers, I know that it's all too "cool" to be apathetic. It would be easier to be like Ron, who shrugs and says "nutters."< >>a_svirn: >Actually I don't think that Ron's being is apathetic. I think that his or Harry's attitude to elves much more mature, in fact, than Hermione's, because they, and especially Harry, do see elves as persons.< Betsy: Ooh, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you here. I don't think Ron sees house-elves as people at all. I think he ranks them up there with garden gnomes - a bit more useful, but not capable of too much thought. I do agree that Harry (who strikes me as naturally empathetic) sees house-elves as people, and so he sees Kreacher as quite capable of choosing the wrong side. Harry has the most mature reaction to house elves, I think. But I think Ron has the least. Hermione might not see house elves as individuals, but she at least sees that they need to be treated better. Ron doesn't seem to think there's any problem, which is quite frankly, wrong. He's holding blindly to tradition, and there's nothing mature about that. >>a_svirn: > But Hermione does not see Kreacher as a person, I'm afraid. You keep saying that she learns to empathise, but in reality she would treat Winky and Kreacher (and probably even Dobby) with equal "kindness" because for her they a very much one like another.< Betsy: I thought Sophierom was quite clear in saying that Hermione was learn*ING* to empathise. (I think she had Hermione on step one of a three step process.) Yes, Hermione treats all house elves as one indistinguishable mass (though that might change with the closing events of OotP) and she will make no headway until she learns to see them as individuals and starts taking their view point into consideration. But I think Hermione is trying, and I also think that empathy is the thing that comes very hard to her. It's part of the reason she was such a social outcast in PS/SS, and it's what keeps her from a leadership position in the DA in OotP. Hermione is highly intelligent, and quite logical, and I think both of those traits are quite natural to her. Empathy may come a bit more slowly, but I think it is coming. >>a_svirn: >She treats Kreacher rather like a pet; an old one who's outlived his usefulness, but still has a claim on his master's protection.< Betsy: I don't see evidence for this at all. Hermione treats Kreature like a much suffering victim. She simplifies the reasons behind his suffering, and therefore winds up with a simple solution (treat Kreature kindly, set him free, and he'll be all better) but she *doesn't* treat him like a mindless animal. >>a_svirn: >Yet his is not a pet, he IS a person, and his affections cannot be bought with a piece of snack and a nice leather collar. This is very simple really, and something, both Harry and Ron are able to understand.< Betsy: Again, I think you're completely wrong about Ron here. I think Ron *does* see Kreacher as a once useful pet "who's outlived his usefulness". And though Ron might be too kind a wizard to initially think Kreacher should be killed (or put down), by the time Harry gets to Grimmauld Place I think Ron is quite ready for Kreacher to die. What Harry recognizes about Kreacher, what Hermione won't allow herself to believe, is the veracity of his hate. Hermione cannot think that Kreacher really hates her so strongly based soley on her Muggle blood. She cannot wrap her mind around the idea that a creature so abused by the very wizards that would eagerly abuse her would fall into the abusing wizards' beliefs. Harry sees that Kreacher *does* believe every ugly thing he says, and so he recognizes Kreacher as a very real threat. Harry doesn't condescend to Kreacher because Harry (like Dumbledore) knows just how powerful a disgruntled house-elf can be. Hermione cannot see beyond Kreacher's (very real) victimhood. >>a_svirn: >It is a breathtaking arrogance on her part to suppose that she can make up for his pain and humiliation by paltry gifts or sooth his frustration by her oppressive friendliness.< Betsy: "Oppressive friendliness"? You make it sound like Hermione's been smothering Kreacher with attention. Hermione is polite to Kreacher and she tries to stop others from bad-mouthing him. And she gives him a Christmas quilt (without her name attached, IIRC) as a present. I don't think Hermione thought the present would soothe all of Kreacher's troubles. It was a token, an outreaching. There's nothing wrong, nothing even condescending, in her gesture. I see nothing arrogant about it. Betsy From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Tue May 17 22:26:43 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:26:43 -0000 Subject: and the murderer is... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129107 Maybe this has been discussed before, but I can't find where. In rereading OotP, I noticed the wheezing guy in Harry's advance guard-- Elphias Doge. Could he have been disguised as the wheezing old wizard with the hearing trumpet? The one who asked for Broderick Bode at St. Mungo's? (And who probably delivered the Devil's Snare?) Is he maybe a traitor or a spy to the Order? (I thought it no more subtle than the smell of goats in the Hogs Head.) Cleverwitch From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Tue May 17 23:17:55 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:17:55 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > What is Lily's big secret? > She was blind. > > > This would be so amazing. Can anyone find canon to confirm or refute > this suggestion? Cleverwitch here: At least she wasn't blind at the time of Snape's pensieve memory. She comments on James' messing up his hair and playing with the snitch, and upon Snape's dirty underpants. I assume she could see what she was talking about. From pastafor5 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 00:18:49 2005 From: pastafor5 at yahoo.com (pastafor5) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:18:49 -0000 Subject: Random Thoughts on OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Chapter 6 p 100/101 in my US copy. The kids are discussing what they've > learned: > > They know there's a weapon and at one point Ron asks, "But there can't > be anyting worse than the Avada Kedavra curse, can there?" said > Ron. "What's worse than death?" > If I may, I'd like to add another very similar reference which is made later on in the book - Ch.36, p 814 in my US copy: During the battle at the ministry Voldemort says, "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" To which Dumbledore responds, "You are quite wrong... Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness---" I can't help but think that this will prove very significant in the downfall of Voldemort. Whether it's the "Bat Bogey Hex" that brings him down, well... we'll have to see. :) ~Pastafor5 - who asks forgiveness for a loooooong absence from this group. I happened to wander over today and was intrigued by this topic. From anurim at yahoo.com Wed May 18 00:03:46 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:03:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050518000347.24269.qmail@web32609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129110 To add my own few knuts to the debate, I think Hermione is far from being unsympathetic. During the last three books she is always the one who explains to Ron and even to Harry the reason behind how others react. She is able not only to put herself in Cho's position, and realise that she would probably allow Harry much more space and his own approach to a relationship and also try to understand him more, but she is also able to identify correctly the reasons why Cho is behaving in a different manner, asking for protection and romance (because her previous boyfriend has died and so on). I think she is as sympathetic as she is intelligent, and the only instances when she doesn't behave in a sympathetic way are in book 3, when she was overworked and stressed. In Kreacher's case, with house elves in general, it is true that we don't see Hermione giving much thought to their culture, but perhaps she did consider this and came to the conclusion that nobody should be allowed to abuse himself, and that a person should be given the chance to see all options before making an informed choice. No matter how you look at it, you cannot give much weight to arguments based on the choice of persons who are deprived by definition of free choice (whether they gave it up willingly or not). It is true that Ron's reaction is based on tradition, but so is Kreacher's behavior; if the first is not acceptable, why should we defend blindly the seconds? Let's consider a similar situation, of a woman living in a society where women were considered second-hand creatures for centuries, and who only sees herself as a good wife if she obeys her husband indiscriminately, and considers naturally to be abused. Would we, given the power, allow this situation to continue, or try to change her mentality, even if in the beginnins she herself would protest, afraid of being asked to think for herself and fend for herself? Is the house-elves situation different, and if yes, why? Hermione doesn't ask the house-elves to stop serving if this is what they want, only tries to eliminate the legal possibility for abuse that bad masters are enjoying at the moment. She doesn't try to change elves, only protect them, and, if possible, make them aware of themselves as beings that possess the right to choose. I find one coincidence interesting: Lily stood up for Snape in front of James, but when Snape called her a mudblood, she didn't care for him anymore. Hermione takes abuse from Kreacher and still keeps defending him. We could argue the Hermione does this because she sees Kreacher as inferior to her, therefore doesn't care for his insults; on the contrary, I think that what Hermione is trying to do is to make Kreacher equal to her, so that she could oppose him with a clean conscience. She doesn't think of her hurt feelings, but tries to understand why Kreacher is as he is (if she didn't understand she would feel offended and stop trying to help him). I think this makes Hermione much more sympathetic than most people see her. In fact, I think she, Dumbledore, and possibly, in the future, Ginny are the most empathic characters of the story. Finally, I have to agree that giving Kreacher a blanket when she was depriving him of his most treasured possessions is not necessarily the best approach to comfort him. However, we can read Hermione's gesture as trying to show to Kreacher that he can allow himself to be comfortable and to think of himself more than of his masters. And then, if still wanting it, to serve them. Perhaps I am wrong, but this is my take on the matter. ALuna __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From siskiou at vcem.com Wed May 18 00:46:50 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 17:46:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4110692212.20050517174650@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129111 Hi, Tuesday, May 17, 2005, 4:32:26 PM, horridporrid03 wrote: > And, frankly, Kreacher is quite obviously suffering from some sort > of mental disconnect, so I don't think Hermione is too far off base > here. Exactly, so Ron isn't too far off with *his* assessment, either :) Now, if Ron and Hermione could just get together and combine their ideas, they might get closer to the whole picture regarding the house elves. Ron insists the elves like what they do (true), and Hermione insists that the way they get treated is wrong (also true). But getting them *freed* against their will not only means they get treated the same way Hermione knows is wrong (making them do something someone else considers appropriate instead of having choices), but also means they are without a means to support themselves. There need to be some contingency plans, instead of just losing them their homes and lively hood, and then congratulating them on their newly acquired freedom. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed May 18 02:06:40 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:06:40 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: Many have wondered why JKR, who places such a high value on choice, would make a prophecy the key to the mystery of Harry and LV. Maybe she did it to show that "Destiny is a name often given in retrospect to choices." Maybe Harry will end up rejecting the prophecy and the fatalism it proclaims. Maybe he will make his own free choice, based on his own vision and conscience. It would be the biggest paradox of all if, in rejecting the prophecy, Harry makes a choice that ends up destroying Lord Voldemort -- thus fulfilling the prophecy. > Tonks: You may be on to something here. You just jogged my memory. I remember a riddle or test of some sort, the kind that only members of Mensa would get the answer to. I can't remember it very clearly, it was years ago, but it was one of these damned if you do and damned if you don't choices. The answer was to think outside of the box and not make the choice at all!! Maybe the final choice that Harry makes will involve something like that. Sorry I can't remember the details, but you get the idea. Tonks_op From sophierom at yahoo.com Wed May 18 02:35:07 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:35:07 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129113 Sophierom closed her last email with: > Thanks for the very thought-provoking debate! > > > > All the best, > > Sophie > a_svirn responded: > > It sounds as if you are going to close the discussion, but I am not > ready yet! Maybe it's immature of me ;-) Sophierom now: Oh, no, I wasn't trying to close the discussion. I just wanted to make sure that you understood that I was enjoying the debate. I hope I know better than to try to get the last word in this group! ;-D > a_svirn: > > How else you can judge one's character if not through one's > interactions? It's not like we are capable of Legilimency Sophierom: What, we're not capable of Legilimency? :-D What I meant and didn't express clearly enough is that we can't judge Hermione only on her interactions with the Kreacher. I think Mira explained this quite well in post 129110; her interactions with others are important for understanding her character, as well. And in any case, you keep arguing that Hermione doesn't treat Kreacher like a person but as a pet. May I again point you toward this example from canon: ** Kreacher: "...and there's the Mudblood, standing there bold as brass ... and there's a new boy, Kreacher doesn't know his name, what is he doing here, Kreacher doesn't know ..." "This is Harry, Kreacher," said Hermione tentatively. "Harry Potter." Kreacher's pale eyes widened and he muttered faster and more furiously than ever. "The Mudblood is talking to Kreacher as though she is my friend" (OotP, Am. ed., 108). ** Hermione actually introduces Kreacher to Harry. She uses his name; she speaks to him respectfully and answers his question, even after he's just called her a Mudblood. I don't know too many people who introduce their pets to their friends. I do know people who use introductions as a way to establish an equal playing field. And this is why Kreacher is so disturbed. "The Mudblood is talking to Kreacher as though she is my friend," he says, and then he worries what his Mistress would think of him keeping such company. He's not worried that old Mrs. Black will think the Mudblood is treating him like a pet; he's worried that she's trying to establish equality between the two of them. > Sophierom in a previous post: > > > As someone who works with teenagers, > > I know that it's all too "cool" to be apathetic. It would be > easier > > to be like Ron, who shrugs and says "nutters." > > a_svirn: > > Actually I don't think that Ron's being is apathetic. I think that > his or Harry's attitude to elves much more mature, in fact, than > Hermione's, because they, and especially Harry, do see elves as > persons. I think it's through Harry, not through Hermione JKR is > trying to convey her message. Sophierom: I agree with you that Harry does the best of all three teens in dealing with the house elves. You and Betsy (in post 129106) both make fabulous points about Harry's natural empathy. But I continue to disagree with you about Ron. I see no canon evidence that he empathizes with the house-elves; what I do see is that he teases Hermione for taking action and that he thinks "spew" is stupid and pointless. If you can provide counterexamples, I'd be happy to reconsider my opinion because I really do like Ron and would love to think better of him. But when it comes to magical creatures (not just house-elves, but goblins and werewolves, too, IIRC from PoA and GoF), he shares his culture's prejudices. > > Sophierom previously: > > > > Again, playing devil's advocate ...;-D Ripe age of 15? Sirius is > more > > than twice her age, and he's not empathetic. > > a_svirn: > > Well, Sirius is not empathetic period, so he's not a really good > example. Had he lived a hundred, he would still have been less than > empathetic. Sophierom now: I agree that Sirius is not an empathetic character; I chose him for comparison, however, because you compared Hermione to him in the first post, arguing that Sirius "acknowledges" Kreacher's feeling (post 129035). In fact, Dumbledore refutes your argument at the end of OotP: "Sirius did not hate Kreacher," said Dumbledore. "He regarded him as a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike....The fountain we destroyed tonight told a lie. We wizards have mistreated and abused our fellows for too long, and we are now reaping our reward" (Am.ed, 833-834). Whether Dumbledore approves of Hermione's "blunt" methods or not, he certainly approves of action: "Indifference and neglect often do more damage," he argues. Of course, you may disagree with Dumbledore. But my entire argument is that Rowling does not see Hermione's actions as hypocritical; misguided, perhaps, but still well-intentioned. If Rowling's critical of anyone, it's the wizards who have accepted the status quo for too long. As Dumbledore warns, the wizarding world is "reaping" their "reward" for their apathy and indifference toward other magical creatures. I think in Book 6 we're going to see more discussion of magical creatures and whether they choose to ally themselves with the DEs, the Order, or remain neutral. Thanks again for such interesting points, and I say this not as a way to end the dialogue but as a sincere show of gratitude for the discussion. All the best, Sophie From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 02:50:01 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:50:01 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129114 > Geoff: > I don't know whether our thoughts touch base or not but I posted some > ramblings involving Macbeth quite recently (but before JKR's > references). The thread was "The prophecy - a maverick view" and > started at post 128332; it might add an item or so to the mix of > ingredients. Inkling: Thanks -- I checked out the thread. Impressive prescience on Macbeth :-) And in general. As I said earlier, in light of JKR's FAQ response I've thrown out what little certainty I had about what the prophecy means. I give up, at least for now, on that one (well, at least we now know for sure it's not about Neville). What struck me about JKR's comments was her emphasis on how the prophecy itself becomes an actor in the drama, through the way the characters respond to it. And how the characters, by responding to what they *think* it says, create the very thing they are trying to prevent. I think this may be the reason she is using the device of a prophecy -- not so much to reveal mystic meaning as to reveal the hearts and minds of her characters. One more thought concerning Macbeth. The witches, at the urging of Hecate, "close contriver of all harms," deliberately use their prophecies to set up Macbeth for a fall. In the case of Sybill Trelawny there doesn't seem to be any bad intent behind the prophecy. However, in both of her authentic prophecies, Sybill refers to Voldy as the Dark Lord. As Harry observed to Snape, "I've only ever heard Death Eaters call him that." I wonder if there is a clue in that choice of words as to the source of the prophecy? Just speculating. Inkling From inkling108 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 02:59:15 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 02:59:15 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129115 > > Tonks: > > You may be on to something here. You just jogged my memory. I > remember a riddle or test of some sort, the kind that only members > of Mensa would get the answer to. I can't remember it very clearly, > it was years ago, but it was one of these damned if you do and > damned if you don't choices. The answer was to think outside of the > box and not make the choice at all!! Maybe the final choice that > Harry makes will involve something like that. Sorry I can't remember > the details, but you get the idea. > Inkling: Yes, you could think of the prophecy as a kind of box. Then the difference between Harry and LV is that one (Harry) is able to free himself from the box using the power of his thought while the other (LV) allows his thoughts to box him further and further. Or you could see it as a control issue -- Harry is able to give up and release the need to control the outcome, whereas Voldy, the ultimate control freak, can never do this. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 03:02:24 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 03:02:24 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129116 S P O I L E R ? ? ? ? >>Stefanie: If Neville was nearly King, than that actually *makes* Harry KING. Of what? Why use this bizarre phrase? One can infer that this kingship is directly related to the being marked as equal by Voldemort -- but king? King has some distinctly positive connotations, while I would venture to say that Harry is hardly the king of anything, even metaphorically.< Betsy: You raise some interesting ideas, Stefanie. (Or to quote my all time favorite pickup line, "Girl, you make me think!) How could Harry be considered a king? I believe that in ancient times, the king was responsible for the health of the land. When the land was sick it was the king's responsiblity to bring healing. (I think the Greek play about Oedipus explores this idea a little bit, as do the stories of King Arthur, not to mention Tolkien's Ring series.) I believe there was also an idea that the shedding of the king's blood would cleanse the land. So maybe Harry has been selected (or anointed) to rid the WW of the great evil that sickens the land. Voldemort pretty obviously fits the profile. But if Harry *is* playing the role of King, is there more sickness for him to heal than just one megalomaniac with a snake fetish and a life-wish? We've certainly seen signs of a deeper disease in the WW. The corruption at the MoM, the rampant prejudice through-out the WW, even the long-standing enmity between Gryffindor and Slytherine.... Something's rotten here, and it ain't Hagrid's compost pile. So is Harry being set up to not only cure the WW of what ails it, but to actually cleanse it? A point of interest is Harry's friends: a house-elf, a half-breed, a Centaur (as much as they befriend anybody), a were-wolf, a muggle-born witch, a pure-blood wizard, possibly a giant. It may mean nothing, but Harry could be getting set up to bring the WW into a unity it hasn't known in centuries (that much used span of time), or maybe ever. Something to think about anyway. Betsy, who would like to point out that this message got eaten by Yahoo!mort. Twice. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 04:31:20 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 04:31:20 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis, Geoff and Latin grammar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129117 Deborah wrote: > > So they do an' all, but I've always justified this by assuming that > since languages change over time when they are used creatively, some > words (like 'Expelliarmus', which would have driven Cicero into a > frothy frenzy) have become modified simply because they are used in > the WW in a way they could never be used in the classroom, or > presumably the Vatican. > > That still leaves me convinced that Felix Felicis cannot be human. > Cannot be a name. Not in the Latin system. Felix Felixson, yes maybe. Felicity Felixdaughter, why not? (She's probably in the Iceland Quidditch team.) But real, live Latin speakers didn't name their sons things like Julius Julianus. And I don't think that Felix Felicis, with or without initial capital letters, is a likely phrase. It's an entry in a filing system, providing information about where 'felix' fits into the language, and it's useful narrowly, just as it is narrowly useful to know where gold appears in the periodic table, > though when discussing Snitches or one's wedding ring one says 'gold' and not 'Au', or '79'. Carol responds: Names even in the RW seldom constitute "likely phrases" or follow the rules of grammar, and most have lost their original meaning. Do we think of a potmaker when we read the name Potter? "Lily Potter" could be read as having not only a grammatical but a semantic meaning--one who pots lilies--but I'm sure JKR had no such literal meaning in mind when she named that character. And it's not as if Felix Felicis (assuming, as I do, that he's a man) were an ancient Roman. I'll grant you that no such name would have been given to him by Roman parents, but Felix's parents weren't "real live Latin speakers," they were twentieth-century people, most likely an English-speaking witch and wizard. But as Steve points out elsewhere in this thread, the name Felicis has presumably existed in the WW for quite some time, along with Ollivander and Black and other ancient family names, some of them no doubt changed over time. I don't think Felix's parents were looking for a grammatical phrase when they named their child. They might not even have been acquainted with "felix, felicis" as "an entry in a filing system" (a term used to classify an adjective as belonging to a particular declension). They probably just wanted the name to alliterate, much like Severus Snape, Minerva McGonagall, Filius Flitwick and others that slip my mind at the moment. Alliterating names seem to be a common (but not universal) custom in the WW, much like naming girl-children after flowers or giving children of either sex Roman first names. JKR clearly liked the sound of "felix, felicis," the glossary listing for a common Roman adjective, and thought it sounded like a name. (So do I.) We can be grateful that she didn't choose a verb instead of an adjective. How about Amo Amare as the next DADA professor or Minister of Magic? Carol, who will retract this entire post and crawl under a table with a bottle of butterbeer for consolation if "Felix Felicis" turns out to be an intensified Cheering Charm From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 05:14:01 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:14:01 -0000 Subject: how did the escaped DEs get wands? (was: Voldemort's Wand...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129118 Tammy wrote: > > Remember that Ollivander's isn't the only wand maker around. We know > there are other wand makers in other countries, but there are probably > others within the UK as well. The DE's don't necessarily have to have > their own wands back, but they probably went out and got new ones. > Voldemort's wand is the only wand that would have to be his same old > wand (as it has that whole connection thingy to Harry's wand). The > rest can just go shopping. Carol: I don't think escapees from Azkaban can just go shopping. They'd be recognized and arrested. Carol From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed May 18 05:52:06 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 22:52:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1767109867.20050517225206@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129119 Tuesday, May 17, 2005, 3:25:29 PM, inkling108 wrote: i> It would be the biggest paradox of all if, in i> rejecting the prophecy, Harry makes a choice that ends up destroying i> Lord Voldemort -- thus fulfilling the prophecy. I find this a very appealing scenario... And I'll humbly add an extra twist: Suppose after Voldemort is defeated, Sibyll contritely admits that she faked the whole thing because she was so desperate for Dumbledore to think her a true seer (remember he was "disappointed" in her performance up to that point) and hire her! That really *would* be the Final Irony, wouldn't it?!!! -- Dave From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed May 18 06:09:15 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 23:09:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1883879775.20050517230915@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129120 Tuesday, May 17, 2005, 8:02:24 PM, horridporrid03 wrote: h> It may mean nothing, but Harry could be getting h> set up to bring the WW into a unity it hasn't known in centuries h> (that much used span of time), or maybe ever. Something to think h> about anyway. Ever since first reading Dumbledore's line to Tom: "Merely killing you would not satisfy me, I admit", I've been convinced that more -- much more -- is going to happen at the end of Book 7 than "Kentucky Fried Voldemort" (apologies to the member of this group who long ago coined that phrase). I think Voldemort's defeat will be meaningless unless the elements in Wizard society that propelled him to power are in some respect defeated as well. I think Harry is destined to literally Change the World (the WW anyway). -- Dave From wherr009 at umn.edu Wed May 18 00:27:04 2005 From: wherr009 at umn.edu (wherr009) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:27:04 -0000 Subject: Owls' Abilities (was: Random thoughts on OOTP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129121 Geoff: > there has been discussion in the past > about the owls; whether, for example, they have magical powers to > find the people for whom they have messages. > I think that there is more to the owls' powers and > intelligence than meets the eye.... Wherr009: If all this is true about owls (and I'm not saying it isn't) then why didn't the MoM just "write a letter" to Sirius and follow the owl to find out where he was? It would be such an easy way to track or find anyone that you want. And going along this same line then this would be an easy way to find Voldemort and try and take him down. There is probably some reason for this that we just don't know right now. I'm glad this doesn't work like this because, then it would be a much shorter series and that just wouldn't be fun now would it. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed May 18 07:11:39 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 07:11:39 -0000 Subject: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices - CAUTION In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129122 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lifeavantgarde" wrote: > J > K > R > I > S > A > G > O > D > D > E > S > S > . > . > . > . > > I don't know about anyone else, but while reading through JKR's > answer to the FAQ poll, I nearly went into apoplectic fits at some > of her very curious word choices: > > "[...] he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to > anoint as the Chosen One ? to give him tools no other wizard > possessed ? the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window > into Voldemort's mind." > > I do find the use of the capitalized words "Chosen One" along with > the word "anoint" highly interesting. This to me (along with some > word choices which she uses later on in the answer) to draw very > very strong royal connotations. > > ...edited... > > > Then > "So where does this leave Neville, the boy who was so nearly King?" > > EXCUSE ME!? OK...I had to read this sentence about four times before > being sure that I would be able to read the rest without needing > smelling salts. ... This, I feel, is the second time she's referred > to Harry in royal terms. If Neville was nearly King, than that > actually *makes* Harry KING. Of what? Why use this bizarre phrase? > ...edited... > > ...edited.. > > Any takes on this? I feel the royal connotations are *quite* heavy > in this answer. Harry as King? Who's the prince? > > Stefanie, who is going a bit mad, yes. bboyminn: Before we all go off the deep end, or at least feel a compelling need to reach for the smelling salts, let's ponder that concepts of analogy, metaphor, and figure of speech. If you search Google for the exact phrase "The Boy Who Would Be King", amazingly, you will receive 800 matches to that /exact/ phrase. I think JKR is just borrowing symbolic references to discribe Harry and Neville, and I think we should be very careful not to start to apply literal interpretation of what she said. True, Harry is 'the chosen one', which we have all known since the beginning of the story. We have known even before the Prophecy that Harry was special and that it was his destiny to fight Voldemort. In that same vein, Harry is the 'anointed one', but only in the sense that he is the 'selected one' which brings us right back to the 'chosen one' which we have all always known. He's the hero of the story, it's his hero's journey, so of course he is the 'chosen/anointed/selected/destine/fated' one who has to defeat the bad guy. And, by extention, now that we know the Prophecy and the detail surrounding it, that makes Neville the boy who would almost be 'king', almost the 'chosen one', almost the 'anointed one', almost the 'selected one', almost the main hero, almost Harry. I strongly suspect all these references are symbolic figures of speech and are simply a way for her to convey her message which is to compare and contrast Harry and Neville, but should not be taken literally or as hidden clues. I think the most telling statements in the entire JKR-FAQ post are contained in the last paragraph - "Of course, none of this should be taken to mean that Neville does not have a significant part to play in the last two novels, or the fight against Voldemort. As for the prophecy itself, it remains ambiguous, not only to readers, but to my characters. Prophecies (think of Nostradamus!) are usually open to many different interpretations. That is both their strength and their weakness." Neville isn't out of the game just yet, and Prophecies are ambiguous, something many of us here have commented on repeatedly. Also, the Prophecy is subject to the interpretation of the /characters/ which means that Dumbledore is only guessing as to what it means. I have no doubt, that there will be a HUGE PLOT TWIST thrown at us related to what we and Dumbledore THINK the Prophecy says. Only in hindsight will it finally make true sense. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com Wed May 18 07:50:22 2005 From: ms_petra_pan at yahoo.com (Petra) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 00:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Owls' Abilities In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050518075022.72139.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129123 Wherr009: > why didn't the MoM just "write a letter" to Sirius > and follow the owl to find out where he was? It would be > such an easy way to track or find anyone that you want. > And going along this same line then this would be an easy > way to find Voldemort and try and take him down. There is > probably some reason for this that we just don't know > right now. Petra: Though the reason for this is not currently in between the covers of canon, we do know the reason for the owls' lack of success in delivering mail to wizards in hiding: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=18 Not so much due to the owls' powers and intelligence (or lack of thereof) but a magical person's ability to make themselves untraceable. Hmm...make that *selectively* untraceable since apparently they are able to get mail from those they wish to hear from. Rather like spam filters. Perhaps the untraceable nature of a witch/wizard in hiding extends to the owls carrying mail to them? Petra a n :) __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From empooress at yahoo.com Wed May 18 04:37:35 2005 From: empooress at yahoo.com (Flunky Bananabrain) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 04:37:35 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129124 "Felix Felicis" , I've read quite a few post on this and most seem to think it is a name or perhaps a spell. But considering what it means, luck of the lucky or something simular, isn't it possible that it's a phase more like "good luck" and perhaps something one might hear spoken at a happy event?? Say Bill and Fleur's weddiing?? Empooress From vloe at dallasnews.com Wed May 18 05:00:15 2005 From: vloe at dallasnews.com (victoria_loe) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:00:15 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129125 >Inkling108 wrote: > >Maybe Harry will end up rejecting the prophecy and the fatalism it >proclaims. Maybe he will make his own free choice, based on his own >vision and conscience. Lurker makes self known. Couldn't resist jumping in on this thread. I wonder if it's not all in the title of the first chapter of the entire opus: The Boy Who Lived. Add to that the following tidbits: 1. Lily died so that Harry might live, imbuing him with an extraordinary ability to love. 2. As revealed in the Mirror of Erised, Harry's deepest heart's desire is to be with his family (all, except Petunia and Dudley, now deceased). 3. VM ? being Harry's shadow ? detests love and desires nothing so much as to defy death. 4. Dumbledore tells VM there are things much worse than death. 5. When Harry encounters the archway with the veil in the MoM, his first instinct is to pass beyond the veil. 6. After Sirius' death, Luna confirms what Harry perceived: that there are people whispering behind the veil. 7. And, of course, the substance of the prophecy: neither can live while the other survives. Harry is very much emerging as a sacrificial figure ? but death may not be the sacrifice he is called upon to make. I think we can count on his losing more people that he loves (Hagrid? Dumbledore? Lupin? Hermione? Ron?) and finding his special status more and more a burden. May he not, when the burden grows unbearable, yearn to slip behind the veil and (theoretically) be reunited with his loved ones? Might his sacrifice be in reaffirming the choice his mother initially made for him, to be The Boy Who Lived? That would fulfill the prophecy while confounding its presumed meaning. I don't know exactly how that would "vanquish" the Dark Lord. I doubt that it's as simple as VM simply dying. Perhaps VM is returned to a state of innocence, to the Tom Riddle that would have existed if his parents had loved him as Harry's did. Victoria From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Wed May 18 09:00:51 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 09:00:51 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129126 > > Geoff: > > I don't know whether our thoughts touch base or not but I posted > > some ramblings involving Macbeth quite recently (but before JKR's > > references). The thread was "The prophecy - a maverick view" and > > started at post 128332; it might add an item or so to the mix of > > ingredients. > Valky: LOL Geoff, y'know I wondered, when I read the update, if JKR had caught up on some post reading before updating her web and thought to herself, hmmm this guy's got it, and explains it well. :D Well, anyhow, I always agreed with that part of your interpretation on the maverick thread and big congrats to you for having your observation vindicated by Jo herself. > Inkling: > What struck me about JKR's comments was her emphasis on how the > prophecy itself becomes an actor in the drama, through the way the > characters respond to it. And how the characters, by responding to > what they *think* it says, create the very thing they are trying to > prevent. I think this may be the reason she is using the device of > a prophecy -- not so much to reveal mystic meaning as to reveal the > hearts and minds of her characters. > Valky: I always thought this was apparent from the first prophecy in the series (ie Trelawney's second prophecy). The prophecy seems to fulfill by the actions of Harry, an insight into his heart and mind also. A long while ago I came up with a theory called prophecy Instrument, which postulates that the recipient of a prophecy rather than the subject becomes the vessel through which it can be fulfilled. Basically contriving from this, that Dumbledore's actions in 'preparing' and 'setting up' Harry as the vanquisher of the Dark Lord are how it is fulfilled, (although at the end of OOtP he begins to look back on it thinking it all a mistake - like Harry when he timeturns thinking he can correct the mistake of letting Peter go) and in spite of all this doubt somehow what Dumbledore does as the burden carrier of the prophecy fulfills it in the end. I figured part i of that was already played out; the eavesdropper told LV about the prophecy thereby machinating the part he heard (ie the 'mark him as his equal' part of the prophecy). The Power the Dark Lord knows not and the Hand of the other, are by this hypothesis things that are fulfilled in Harry by the person who heard this part of the prophecy that is Dumbledore. But would that mean the power the Dark Lord knows not isn't from Lily???? or to get wild about this hypothetical it could mean that Lily was the old Divination teacher at Hogwarts helping DD interview Cassandra while/because she was pregnant? OOOOOH. prophecy interpretation is a real pain in the medulla oblongata. If we have to go as far as to put a pregnant Lily in the Hogshead with the goatsmells etc looking at Ms Trelawney in spooky mode, then maybe the Hypothetical does eat itself up. > Inkling: > One more thought concerning Macbeth. The witches, at the urging of > Hecate, "close contriver of all harms," deliberately use their > prophecies to set up Macbeth for a fall. In the case of Sybill > Trelawny there doesn't seem to be any bad intent behind the > prophecy. However, in both of her authentic prophecies, Sybill > refers to Voldy as the Dark Lord. As Harry observed to Snape, "I've > only ever heard Death Eaters call him that." I wonder if there is a > clue in that choice of words as to the source of the prophecy? Just > speculating. > Hmmm I really don't know Inkling but it's holding up better than mine. Valky Who almost *didn't* post this theory for the fifth time. :S From rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk Wed May 18 11:27:34 2005 From: rochesteruponmedway at yahoo.co.uk (rochesteruponmedway) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:27:34 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129127 At least she wasn't blind at the time of Snape's pensieve memory. She comments on James' messing up his hair and playing with the snitch, and upon Snape's dirty underpants. I assume she could see what she was talking about. Curses..foiled again!!!! From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Wed May 18 12:27:15 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 12:27:15 -0000 Subject: how did the escaped DEs get wands? (was: Voldemort's Wand...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Tammy wrote: > > > > Remember that Ollivander's isn't the only wand maker around. We know > > there are other wand makers in other countries, but there are probably > > others within the UK as well. The DE's don't necessarily have to have > > their own wands back, but they probably went out and got new ones. > > Voldemort's wand is the only wand that would have to be his same old > > wand (as it has that whole connection thingy to Harry's wand). The > > rest can just go shopping. > > > Carol: > I don't think escapees from Azkaban can just go shopping. They'd be > recognized and arrested. > They can go shopping at DE run shops. You know there have to be loads of people who secretly support Voldemort. Who knows, maybe Ollivander is one of them. Maybe there's a mail order for wands as well. My point is that just because we've only seen Ollivander's, that doesn't mean that the escaped DEs had to get their wands there. From moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 12:36:40 2005 From: moonmyyst13 at yahoo.com (K G) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 05:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Eileen's HBP Predictions (Sirius' motorcycle) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050518123641.30309.qmail@web53509.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129129 mz_annethrope wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eileen Nicholson wrote: > 5.Sirius' motorcycle comes out of storage and gets an encore. It has got very friendly with the Weasley car. mz_annethrope: Hmmm. I once sent a post to another site suggesting the Sirius' motorcycle was lurking in the Forbidden Forest where it met Arthur's Ford Anglia, got hitched and was now raising a brood of tuk-tuks (three wheeled auto-rickshaws). I may have to cancel my prediction for HBP and vote for one of this brood instead. mz_annethrope EUREKA!!!! THAT'S IT!!! THE HALF BLOOD PRINCE IS THE SON OF SIRIUS' MOTORCYCLE AND THE WEASLEY'S FORD ANGLIA!!!! STOP THE PRESSES!!!! moonmyyst (who is starting to get a little nutsy while waiting) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pfsch at gmx.de Wed May 18 14:50:14 2005 From: pfsch at gmx.de (Peter Felix Schuster) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:50:14 +0200 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: <428B5626.8050306@gmx.de> No: HPFGUIDX 129130 Hi TigerPatronus! you wrote Date: Thu, 05 May 2005 22:34:49 -0000 I had tea time together with my collegue Sandra, and we read some tea leaves (we've seen the Grim). > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Albus Dumbledore. Hagrid mentioned before he wouldn't worry as long as they've got DD for headmaster. We also expect Lupin and/or one of the Weasleys to die, but DD is more major a character. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) The Old Lion Guy -- Godric Gryffindor (might have something to do with time travel - without time turner - or a special insight to the past for Harry). > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Harry died in the first place, and Lily found a charm to sacrifice her life in exchange for his. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Bill or Charly Weasley or Dumbledore. If only one is allowed, we vote for Bill. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He and Ron will be interested in Hermione and quarrel about it. Ginny is due for book seven. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. Since the recent MoM is male JKR might choose the lady to fulfill the quota. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve in which DD wants to show Harry past events. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? He ought to since he wants to become an auror. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. He has better things to do than be humilitated by Snape. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 6 since it's book six. (He might get another one in the seventh *g*) > Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1. There will be a third prediction by Trelawney. (Might she just be predicting all her evening time, just no one listens?) > 2. Before DD dies, he will have a quarrel with Harry. > 3. Hermione, Harry, Ron will become animagi or at least try to (die in the effort? naah, enough Grim). > 4. Voldemort (or a DE) will try to entice Harry "to the dark side of the force". Or at least Harry will be tempted to use the dark arts in a crunch time. > 5. Hermione will think SPEW over, not to give it up but to concetrate on elves who feel oppressed by their masters (and actually want to be freed) instead of the Hogwarts elves. 6. Ron will turn 17 and attempt to pass his apparition test (he'll pass, we guess - triumphing over Charley who failed the first time). -- Goodbite Peter (www.setrok.de) From feenyjam at msu.edu Wed May 18 15:14:35 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:14:35 -0000 Subject: Owls' Abilities In-Reply-To: <20050518075022.72139.qmail@web51901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129131 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Petra wrote: > Wherr009: > > why didn't the MoM just "write a letter" to Sirius > > and follow the owl to find out where he was? It would be > > such an easy way to track or find anyone that you want. > > And going along this same line then this would be an easy > > way to find Voldemort and try and take him down. There is > > probably some reason for this that we just don't know > > right now. > > > Petra: > > Though the reason for this is not currently in between the > covers of canon, we do know the reason for the owls' lack > of success in delivering mail to wizards in hiding: > > http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=18 > > Not so much due to the owls' powers and intelligence (or > lack of thereof) but a magical person's ability to make > themselves untraceable. > > Hmm...make that *selectively* untraceable since apparently > they are able to get mail from those they wish to hear from. > > Rather like spam filters. > > Perhaps the untraceable nature of a witch/wizard in > hiding extends to the owls carrying mail to them? > > Petra > a > n :) > Greenfirespike says: Petra, Thank you!!! I spent most of my morning looking over JKR interviews looking for that comment about Sirius and owls. My next stop was JKR's webpage, but I'm glad you got there first. So, we know that a wizard who wishes not to be found, can't be found by, lets just say, non-preapproved owls. Now that is one thing is you are off hiding in a cave, or in thw woods, or a bar...but...Hegwig gets to 12 Grimmauld Place, which is hidden by Fidelius Charm. Only the secret keeper(s) can reveal the place (all all those who are inside, or it would be a waste of time). So...did another approved owl give Hedwig the means to get in? Do owls have their own magic? Greenfirespike (who wonders if the heir of Gryffindor is a owlmouth, or a lionmouth) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed May 18 15:22:40 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:22:40 -0000 Subject: Macbeth and Harry Potter - prophecy parallels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129132 Although much bandwidth has been expended in discussing the subject of the prophecy I have tended in the past to avoid these discussions because I do not consider myself to be any sort of expert in this area but my interest has been raised by comparisons with the prophecies in Shakespeare's Macbeth made by JKR. I posted some thoughts along these lines a little while ago in message 128332. These had in part been triggered off by the fact that in the POA "medium which dare not speak its name" the Hogwarts choir sing a song which draws exclusively on the words used by the three witches. Also, in the advertising, the slogan "Something wicked this way comes" was used. JKR's comments on her website suggest that the Macbeth story may have been at the back of her mind on occasions; there are little clues in the books ? the Weird Sisters pop group for example using Shakespeare's name for his coven. There are similarities between the way in which prophecy is handled by these two authors ? and also dissimilarities - and I wanted to draw some parallels between them. In both Macbeth and HP, the authors have constructed careful smokescreens to mislead the recipients of the prophecies so that the end products are not perhaps quite what they expect. In Macbeth, the witches are setting out with the intent of bringing him down and engineering his destruction. At their first meeting, they present him with a truth and a prophecy. He is greeted as Thane of Cawdor and, soon after this, he has the news confirmed by messengers from King Duncan that the previous Thane has been stripped of his title. Now, Macbeth at this point could have thought "Well, maybe the prophecy will come true. Duncan might die or fall in battle and perhaps the crown might come to me." In which case the prophecy would have been fulfilled without any side effects. However, he tells Lady Macbeth of his meeting and she decides that a little help is needed in getting the prophecy to take effect. In passing, I wonder whether I can see something of Bellatrix Lestrange's style in the way she sets out to achieve her aims. She cajoles, bullies and manipulates Macbeth into killing the king, taking the crown and actually bringing about the fulfilment of the prophecy by his own actions. It is only because of this that Macbeth goes to see the witches to try to gain reassurance that all is well and receives their second message - a warning and two prophecies. Beware of Macduff as a warning and the prophecies that his position is safe unless Birnam Wood comes to Dunsinane Castle and also that he will not be vanquished by a man born of woman. The twist is in the way in which he interprets the two prophecies and the way in which they are implemented to bring about his downfall. Two dissimilarities with the Harry Potter prophecies are that they are not given to the same person and they do not apparently refer to the same person. However, the first prophecy presents a truth and a prophecy. The truth is that a child will be born at the end of the seventh month. The prophecy, which Voldemort only hears in part is that this child will vanquish the Dark Lord. But, because of his own wish for power ? echoing that, at least, of Lady Macbeth ? he sets off to destroy the child without finding out the rest of the prediction, setting his sights on Harry and possibly also Neville and thus actually bringing about a partial fulfilment of the prophecy by his own actions. I say a partial fulfilment because for the time being Voldemort has been vanquished; after the events of Godric's Hollow, he was stripped of his body and his powers and - especially that of independent physical action - for fourteen years. The second prophecy seems not to be directed at Voldemort but those around him and may not present a parallel to the Macbeth predictions. What is interesting is that Macbeth is warned to beware of Macduff; the final link in the chain of his downfall is that one of the two later prophecies given by the Weird Sisters does not apply to Macduff and thus Macbeth's imagined immunity is proved invalid. Now, although miles of ink and hours of thought have been given to the Hogsmeade prophecy by the hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional beings who inhabit HPFGU, is there something skilfully and fiendishly buried in the wording which can produce a "Macduff effect" on Voldemort? I will make my own prophecy. Beware of innocent looking authors with long blond hair....... I await the remaining books with increasing curiosity. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 18 15:41:58 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:41:58 -0000 Subject: Macbeth and Harry Potter - prophecy parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129133 Geoff wrote: > Although much bandwidth has been expended in discussing the subject > of the prophecy I have tended in the past to avoid these discussions > because I do not consider myself to be any sort of expert in this > area but my interest has been raised by comparisons with the > prophecies in Shakespeare's Macbeth made by JKR. Potioncat: When the moving picture version of PoA came out, JKR said there was/were scene(s) that gave her goosebumps and that fans would think was/were intential foreshadowing to the future books. Didn't all sorts of guesses follow that interview!? Now it crosses my mind, particularly given the way she brings up Macbeth and explains it in her site, that it could have been the frog chorus that she was thinking of. Macbeth has come up in this site before, but JKR seems to respond to and think of the more casual and more normal fans when she answers questions. I don't know if more normal fans would have thought of Macbeth and Potter at the same time. And along that line, some of her announcements seem ho-hum to this group, but really, can she possibly outguess all of us? And given the combined man-hours of reflection, we've put more time into Harry Potter than she has! With far less profit. PollyannaCat: because you never know when a silver lining might come in handy. From shalimar07 at aol.com Wed May 18 15:13:11 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 15:13:11 -0000 Subject: Felix Felicis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Flunky Bananabrain" wrote: > "Felix Felicis" , I've read quite a few post on this and most seem to > think it is a name or perhaps a spell. But considering what it means, > luck of the lucky or something simular, isn't it possible that it's a > phase more like "good luck" and perhaps something one might hear > spoken at a happy event?? Say Bill and Fleur's weddiing?? > Empooress I suppose we could be making a bigger deal out of the name of this chapter than there should be. I've looked this up too and this is what I found "Felix Happy, lucky, fortunate (felix, felicis)". Do you think maybe the Wizard of the month was really an error? Felix Summerbee was the inventor of the Cheering Charm. Maybe there really is going to be wedding. Shalimar From caseylane at wideopenwest.com Wed May 18 16:29:31 2005 From: caseylane at wideopenwest.com (Casey) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 16:29:31 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129135 > S > P > O > I > L > E > R > ? > ? > ? > ? > > > Betsy: > > So is Harry being set up to not only cure the WW of what ails it, but > to actually cleanse it? A point of interest is Harry's friends: a > house-elf, a half-breed, a Centaur (as much as they befriend > anybody), a were-wolf, a muggle-born witch, a pure-blood wizard, > possibly a giant. It may mean nothing, but Harry could be getting > set up to bring the WW into a unity it hasn't known in centuries > (that much used span of time), or maybe ever. Something to think > about anyway. > Like King Arthur, uniting a group of very different characters for the unification of the wizarding world. Not a King, but king like in his ability to be an instrument of change for the better. Where honor and valor are how a person is measured, not by birthright. Casey From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed May 18 17:03:43 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:03:43 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rochesteruponmedway" wrote: > At least she wasn't blind at the time of Snape's pensieve memory. She > comments on James' messing up his hair and playing with the snitch, > and upon Snape's dirty underpants. I assume she could see what she was > talking about. > > Curses..foiled again!!!! Chys: Yeah, I mentioned that before, but I was saying that it might have happened later on in life. If at all. Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Wed May 18 17:06:45 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:06:45 -0000 Subject: Owls' Abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129137 > Greenfirespike says: > > So...did another approved owl give Hedwig the means to get in? Do > owls have their own magic? > Chys: So, would it make a difference if the owl's OWNER is approved? *Owls seem to always find their owners, or where they will be.* Chys From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed May 18 18:36:20 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:36:20 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "suehpfan" wrote: > SSSusan: > The other oft-cited scene where Snape lets loose with his emotions is > the scene in PoA after he learns Sirius has escaped and he suspects > Harry of being involved. He's right angry there, and there's no > containing his emotions. In fact, Fudge seems truly appalled by the > venom of Snape's outburst (says "the fellow seems quite > unbalanced"). I'm curious whether you see this as also a place where > Snape was play-acting? > > > Sue(hpfan) now: > > I think Snape is able to control his emotions when he has to. Losing > control is a choice (as I continue to remind my 8 year old :p). Some > times it takes nerves of steal to keep it together but as SSS says, > he must have them or he would be dead. IMHO, Snape would do just > about anything to keep Harry from finding out how truly important he > is to the WW. As a matter of fact he takes every opportunity to tell > him "you are niether special nor important..." Ootp pg 591 US. Which > is completely ridiculous as Harry and Snape both know. If he weren't > special or important he wouldn't be taking Occulmency lessons. > I may be in the minority on this one, but I really don't find SNAPE'S behavior (as opposed to DD's lapses) to be all that puzzling. It is true that it at first blush seems to be odd -- he is evidently able to control his feelings in the presence of Voldemort and not in the presence of a fifteen year old student. Also, after a career as a Death Eater, his worst memory, we are led to believe, is about a school yard humiliation. However, strange as it initially seems, after some thought I find nothing hard to believe about any of that. We (I very much included) tend to forget that when we are dealing with people's minds and emotions we are in a world where the subjective, not the objective, is the important factor. To put it another way, what we have to ask isn't what is important in the "objective" world, but what is important TO A PARTICULAR PERSON. We don't need to ask what should be difficult according to the laws of reason and the dictates of common experience, but what is difficult FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON. Often, what is important to a given individual isn't what the consensus of his or her peers might hold to be important. And what is difficult for a particular person isn't always what an "impartial" observer would intuitively or reasonably think would be difficult. I once knew someone who made a living as a cardiac surgeon. I would often ask him how his day went and he would reply "Oh, I didn't do much today. Just two triple bypasses," or he would say "No interesting cases today -- oh wait, we did have an emergency open heart procedure, but it wasn't anything terribly exciting." Yet if he had to give an introductory lecture on the heart to a group of first year medical students he would vomit five times in the course of the morning and be so terrified that he would have to hold onto the lectern to keep from trembling. In the case of Snape, it doesn't matter what we might intuit his worst memory would be. What matters is what is the worst memory FOR SNAPE. And if the scene with James is worse IN SNAPE'S MIND than anything he saw as a Death Eater -- well, then it IS worse than anything he saw as a Death Eater. And if facing Harry is harder FOR SNAPE than facing Voldemort -- well, then that's just the way it is. The fact that Voldemort is, OBJECTIVELY speaking, the worst and most dangerous wizard alive while Harry is, at absolute worst, a rather disrespectful fifteen year old student, remains totally irrelevant to understanding the situation. In SNAPE'S mind, Harry is the worse of the two, and therefore he IS the worse of the two. It might seem odd to us, but in the annals of troubled emotions things like this are more the rule than the exception. And I'm not necessarily talking about mental illness, per se. I mean, really, how many of us know a woman who could face having a broken leg more readily than sitting next to her ex-husband at their daughter's wedding? How many of us know a man who would literally rather leave town for the weekend than have to shake hands with his former boss? And that isn't even dealing with outright psychopathology. In most psychiatric or psychological textbooks Snape wouldn't even be worth a footnote. Now, one would expect that if DD is really as observant as he is supposed to be, he would have figured this out about Snape sometime over the last five years. As I said before, has he been paying any attention at all to how Snape acts on the subject of Harry? But Snape's behavior itself? Although I once found it strange, after a lot of thought I don't find it that hard to explain, or believe, at all. Lupinlore From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 23:11:53 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:11:53 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129139 >>Casey >Like King Arthur, uniting a group of very different characters for the unification of the wizarding world. Not a King, but king like in his ability to be an instrument of change for the better. Where honor and valor are how a person is measured, not by birthright.< Betsy: I completely agree that Harry will *act* as a king (in the ancient or mythological meaning of the word), not actually become a literal king. JKR has not put any signs of royalty in the WW (no reference to an actual noble class), so it would be awfully jarring if someone suddenly pulled a crown out of nowhere. Which is why I strongly suspect the half-blood prince will either be an actual half-blood (meaning human + non-human) and the title comes from the non-human side of the family, or he's from a foreign land. (If of course, the half-blood prince is an individual at all.) Betsy From a_svirn at yahoo.com Wed May 18 23:14:30 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:14:30 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129140 > >>a_svirn: > >Yes, I think, we have. First of all the way she goes about the > business of defending Elves. After an all too brief hunger strike > she spends extra hours in the library. One would have thought she is > doing what she usually does best ? researching, but no! She is > making the SPEW badges. She draws up a list of members and makes > Harry and Ron treasurer and secretary. Strange, isn't it?< > > Betsy: > Not really. Looking at every other human and/or animal rights > organization in the world, a large list of memembers is a prime way > of getting some sort of power. No one was going to listen to a > little twelve years-old Muggle-born witch, but if the entire student > body of Hogwarts started marching for house-elf rights (and perhaps > brought about the freedom of the Hogwarts elves) the WW would be > forced to sit up and take notice. > a_svirn now: Um, I didn't marvel at the way human rights organisation work. I merely pointed out that Hermione does indeed see herself as liberator of house-elves. Not just any liberator but the founder and the head of the liberation front. And I think it was strange and even uncharacteristic of her, that she didn't research the problem first. Her normal attitude is "when in doubt go to the library". In this instance she goes to the library but for all the wrong reasons. > Betsy: > Actually, I think Hermione sees herself more as a budding political > activist. And I think she's genuinely interested in her cause. I > don't think she sees this as merely a way to break into government, > but I think she does think (or hope) that she'll be capable of > bringing some major changes to the WW. (Which is unfriendly enough > to her kind that I don't blame her eagerness to change things one > bit.) a_svirn: I never claimed that she is UNinterested. No did I say that she is a hardened cynic. She is actually quite decent sort of person on most occasions. But is it really such a big difference between a political activist and a politician? I'd say a politician is a political activist who succeeded. And Hermione is clearly determined to succeed. > > Betsy: > Ooh, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you here. I don't > think Ron sees house-elves as people at all. I think he ranks them > up there with garden gnomes - a bit more useful, but not capable of > too much thought. a_svirn: Yes, you are probably right about Ron. >> Betsy: > I thought Sophierom was quite clear in saying that Hermione was > learn*ING* to empathise. (I think she had Hermione on step one of a > three step process.) Yes, Hermione treats all house elves as one > indistinguishable mass (though that might change with the closing > events of OotP) and she will make no headway until she learns to see > them as individuals and starts taking their view point into > consideration. But I think Hermione is trying, and I also think > that empathy is the thing that comes very hard to her. a_svirn: Is it though? I seem to remember a number of occasions when she experienced no difficulty empathizing. She is able empathize with Hagrid ? better even than Harry sometimes. Her complete silence on account of Remus throughout the PoA is more eloquent than any stand for werewolves' rights she could have ever taken; and she was even younger at the time! And when she leapt to Winky's defence in the face of the incriminating evidence and stood bravely up to the top Ministry officials on her behalf ? what is it, if not empathy? And on those occasions she was not at the squire one on her progress. In Sophierom's estimation it would be at least step two, I believe. BUT THAT WAS BEFORE SPEW. Because you see, SPEW is not about elves it is about Hermione's self- justification. In itself her need to justify herself is not such a bad thing. She was struck by realisation that she with her fine principles had actually benefited from the slaves' labour for three years and there were another four to come! Naturally she was appalled. Her first instinctive reaction was to refuse the food, but she realized soon enough that this is not a solution. Because if she were consistent about it (and Hermione is nothing if not consistent) she would have to forfeit her place in Hogwarts altogether. Certainly she wasn't prepared for such a sacrifice. Nor could she really meekly accept the reality. (Again, not a bad thing in itself). She needed something, anything to reconcile her consciousness with the continuing use of slaves. So she devised SPEW. As motivations go, alleviating one's guilty consciousness is actually not a bad one. I suspect lots of charities were called into existence precisely for this reason. But it's OK only if you are conscious what you are about. Hermione is not, really. She needs to justify herself so badly, that she ? unconsciously, I am sure ? substitute her real motivation for another one, much more grand. Instead of a student, forced by circumstances to overlook her principles she reinvents herself as an avenging angel of all elves. >From self-justification to self-righteousness is a very small step, and she took it. She is even now walking down this path towards glittering "worthwhile causes". But this is not a road towards empathy. Rather the opposite. > >>a_svirn: > >It is a breathtaking arrogance on her part to suppose that she can > make up for his pain and humiliation by paltry gifts or sooth his > frustration by her oppressive friendliness.< > > > Betsy: > "Oppressive friendliness"? You make it sound like Hermione's been > smothering Kreacher with attention. Hermione is polite to Kreacher > and she tries to stop others from bad-mouthing him. And she gives > him a Christmas quilt (without her name attached, IIRC) as a > present. I don't think Hermione thought the present would soothe > all of Kreacher's troubles. It was a token, an outreaching. > There's nothing wrong, nothing even condescending, in her gesture. > I see nothing arrogant about it. a_svirn: A token of what? Friendship? To give a token of friendship to someone who ostensibly despises you and has expressed more than once his cherished wish ? to see you gone ? IS condescending. Good will? Having methodically destroyed everything that matters for Kreacher she then "reaches out" with a blanket? Well, it is at the very least arrogant. a_svirn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 18 23:30:23 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:30:23 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129141 >>Lupinlore: >Now, one would expect that if DD is really as observant as he is supposed to be, he would have figured this out about Snape sometime over the last five years. As I said before, has he been paying any attention at all to how Snape acts on the subject of Harry? But Snape's behavior itself? Although I once found it strange, after a lot of thought I don't find it that hard to explain, or believe, at all.< Betsy: But though Snape will bitch and moan (or snark and sneer), he's generally been a team player (assuming he's playing for the team). >From the first book on, he's been Dumbledore's right hand man, even when the job is to protect Harry. And though he's obviously not thrilled with the Occlumency project Snape does (apparently) tell Dumbledore he'll do it. And for several weeks, he does. So I think Snape quitting the lessons really did come out of left field for Dumbledore. What I wonder, is if Snape told him the entire story. Did Snape just say Harry was too stubborn, etc., or did he tell Dumbledore about the pensieve incident? I don't think canon tells us anything either way. I mean, Dumbledore doesn't give Harry any kind of "snooping is wrong, hmm-kay?" lecture, but honestly, there wasn't really any time for that sort of thing. (And it seemed to me that the pensieve incident *was* the breaking point for Snape. He'd been less than thrilled with Harry, but he was still doing the lessons with no sign of quitting until that time.) Betsy From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed May 18 23:35:56 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 23:35:56 -0000 Subject: how did the escaped DEs get wands? (was: Voldemort's Wand...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129142 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" wrote: > Carol: > I don't think escapees from Azkaban can just go shopping. They'd be > recognized and arrested. > But if they can escape from Azkaban, they can certainly break in to a shop. Gerry From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 19 01:09:08 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:09:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129143 > Sophierom: > May I again point you toward this example > from canon: > > ** > > Kreacher: "...and there's the Mudblood, standing there bold as brass > ... and there's a new boy, Kreacher doesn't know his name, what is he > doing here, Kreacher doesn't know ..." > > "This is Harry, Kreacher," said Hermione tentatively. "Harry Potter." > > Kreacher's pale eyes widened and he muttered faster and more furiously > than ever. "The Mudblood is talking to Kreacher as though she is my > friend" (OotP, Am. ed., 108). > > ** > > Hermione actually introduces Kreacher to Harry. She uses his name; > she speaks to him respectfully and answers his question, even after > he's just called her a Mudblood. I don't know too many people who > introduce their pets to their friends. I do know people who use > introductions as a way to establish an equal playing field. And this > is why Kreacher is so disturbed. "The Mudblood is talking to Kreacher > as though she is my friend," he says, and then he worries what his > Mistress would think of him keeping such company. He's not worried > that old Mrs. Black will think the Mudblood is treating him like a > pet; he's worried that she's trying to establish equality between the > two of them. a_svirn: Or thank you for the quote! I don't have the book at hand, but I had this episode in mind while answering another post You see, that's exactly the attitude I called "oppressive friendliness" earlier. I believe that there is nothing respectful in ignoring direct insult. It only shows that NOTHING Kreacher can say or do really matters to her. He just as well could have spoken Greek or Troll. Or bleated or barked. She's devised certain rules on how elves should be treated and she would stick to them despite everything. But I read this episode differently, you know. I don't think Kreacher is disturbed by her gesture. I think he is incensed at the Hermione's sheer audacity when she persists with her overtures of friendship in the face of his open hostility. And he is not really *worried* about his mistress's reaction. It was just an exclamation, just like "Oh, if only your father could see you now" or like "O woe! O woe! O wretched fate!" He has no reason be afraid of his mistress's reaction since she, after all, keeps the same company of mudbloods and blood traitors. This is something they both simply cannot help. > >> Sophierom: > > I agree with you that Harry does the best of all three teens in > dealing with the house elves. You and Betsy (in post 129106) both make > fabulous points about Harry's natural empathy. > > But I continue to disagree with you about Ron. I a_svirn: Yes, you and Betsy are both right about Ron. I was thinking more about Harry when I wrote my earlier post. > > Sophierom: > > I agree that Sirius is not an empathetic character; I chose him for > comparison, however, because you compared Hermione to him in the first > post, arguing that Sirius "acknowledges" Kreacher's feeling (post > 129035). > > In fact, Dumbledore refutes your argument at the end of OotP: "Sirius > did not hate Kreacher," said Dumbledore. "He regarded him as a > servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect > often do much more damage than outright dislike....The fountain we > destroyed tonight told a lie. We wizards have mistreated and abused > our fellows for too long, and we are now reaping our reward" (Am.ed, > 833-834). a_svirn: Yes, I know. But I'm afraid DD is either not completely truthful or not quite aware. Sirius might not really hate Kreacher (*hatred* is indeed a bit too strong a word, better be reserved to the likes of Snape), but he certainly dislikes him extremely. And the closer the end of OotP is the more it looks like a real revulsion. It is certainly doesn't bespeak of indifference when a grown man ? and one we've been told who is generally kind to elves? never misses an opportunity to taunt and bully the poor broken creature Kreacher. But the other part of DD's statement ? that Sirius though Kreacher "unworthy of much interest and notice" is true. And we know that his mistake in underestimating Kreacher turned out to be fatal. > Sophierom: > > Whether Dumbledore approves of Hermione's "blunt" methods or not, he > certainly approves of action: "Indifference and neglect often do more > damage," he argues. Of course, you may disagree with Dumbledore. a_svirn I do agree, truly! It's not Hermione's intentions that make me uneasy, but her motivations. > > All the best, > Sophie Likewise! a_svirn From siskiou at vcem.com Thu May 19 01:46:51 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:46:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <872766910.20050518184651@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129144 Hi, Wednesday, May 18, 2005, 4:14:30 PM, a_svirn wrote: >> Betsy: >> Ooh, I'm going to have to strongly disagree with you here. I > don't >> think Ron sees house-elves as people at all. I think he ranks > them >> up there with garden gnomes - a bit more useful, but not capable > of >> too much thought. > a_svirn: > Yes, you are probably right about Ron. Hm, I'm not so sure of that assessment. If you compare Ron's and Harry's reactions to Dobby at Christmas time in GoF and his actions in OotP, when Hermione tries to trick them, I don't see Ron treating them as not capable of too much thought. No more than Hermione, who thinks the elves need to be tricked into freedom, instead of talking things over with them, learning more about their history first hand and finding out their reasons for not wanting to rush over into her camp. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu May 19 02:06:22 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:06:22 -0000 Subject: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129145 Alla: Umm, I hope you guys don't mind me reposting another Elkins' post. So, is Minerva secretly evil or is she not? Now, personally I think that this is a brilliant piece of subversive reading of the text, but of course I cannot really say whether Elkins thinks that Minerva is ESE. :-) Now, I don't really believe that Professor McGonagall is Voldemort's servant in disguise, although analysis is so very convicing, but one thing did bother me in GoF. Why did Dumbledore not let Minerva in on Sirius' secret? Now, I do understand why he sent away Madame Pomfrey, but Minerva is his Deputy, supposedly his trusted second, why didn't Dumbledore make her stay? Doesn't he trust her completely? And here is Elkins for you. I snipped some, but it is still very long. Elkins She (Minerva)wouldn't have *wanted* to ward off Crouch Jr.'s dementor if she was a follower of Voldemort's, now, would she? You think that little Barty "Oh, how I hate all those Death Eaters who walked free" Crouch wouldn't have ratted her out to the Ministry, given half a chance? You think that little Barty "No, Daddy, please save me, I just can't stand all of these scary dementors" Crouch wouldn't have tried to offer the ministry a little deal, if he thought that it might cut back his prison sentence by a year or two? You think that McGonagall was willing to take the chance that the next time someone loaded little Barty up with a mouthful of veritaserum, they wouldn't think to ask him anything about *her?* Hah! If you ask me, the happiest moment in Minerva McGonagall's *life* was the moment that she first realized that Fudge's Dementor was going in for the Kiss. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she stumbled right *into* Snape, just to make sure that he wouldn't have time to do anything to stop what was about to happen. Even if Snape did suspect that she'd done it on purpose, he'd never be able to convince Dumbledore of that fact. Not after that amazing impersonation of Flustered Woman Who Can't Keep Her Head In A Crisis that McGonagall pulled off, with all of her shrieking and trembling and flushing and fist-balling and disarrayed hair and the like. "Ward off Crouch Jr's dementor." > > So let's just take a look at all of the canonical evidence stacked up against dear Minerva, shall we? For one thing, there's her behavior right after the third task. Crouch Jr. wasn't the only person at Hogwarts who seemed terribly keen to lure Harry out of sight of Albus Dumbledore that night, you know. McGonagall gave it a shot as well. > In fact, she tried to get Harry away from Dumbledore the instant that Crouch/Moody had been taken out of the action. She, Snape and Dumbledore barge into Fake!Moody's office. Fake!Moody is stupefied. Dumbledore kicks him onto his back and starts pulling his scary "the gloves are coming off now" Do Not Anger The Powerful Wizard routine. Snape stares intriguingly at himself in the Foe-Glass. And what does McGonagall do? >From _GoF, Ch. 35: > > "Professor McGonagall went straight to Harry. > 'Come along, Potter,' she whispered. The thin line of her mouth was twitching as though she was about to cry. 'Come along...hospital wing...' 'No,' said Dumbledore sharply. 'Dumbledore, he ought to -- look at him -- he's been through enough tonight--' > > 'He will stay, Minerva, because he needs to understand,' said > Dumbledore curtly." Oh well. At least she gave it her best shot, right? She looks as if she's about to cry, eh? Yeah, no kidding. I'd look as if I were about to cry too, I think, if I'd just had the sort of terrible disappointment that Evil!McGonagall just suffered in that graveyard, and if Dumbledore wasn't going to allow me to curry my Dark Master's favor by delivering Harry up to him myself, and if on top of all of that, my idiot colleague was likely to be ratting me out to all of my enemies in a matter of only a few minutes. If she looks as if she's about to cry when Crouch is thwarted, though, that's nothing compared to how she looks after they feed him the veritaserum. She looks positively *sick* when that happens. And really, who can blame her? Boy, though, what a relief when Dumbledore asked *her,* rather than, say, Snape, to be the one to stand guard over Crouch, eh? >From _GoF,_ Ch. 36: "'Minerva, could I ask you to stand guard here while I take Harry upstairs?' 'Of course,' said Professor McGonagall. She looked slighty nauseous, > as though she had just watched someone being sick. However, when she drew out her wand and pointed it at Barty Crouch, her hand was quite steady." I'll bet it was. I'm telling you, Fudge's showing up with that Dementor was the best thing that ever happened to McGonagall. She'd been standing there over Crouch racking her brains to try to think of some way to ensure his silence that wouldn't cast suspicion right back on her -- should she claim that he had tried to escape, perhaps? No, no, Severus would see right through that one. Well, okay, a memory charm perhaps? -- and then along came Fudge with his Dementor and solved all of her problems for her. What a relief! But a bad moment there for a minute as well, I'm sure. As a general rule, I don't think that secret DEs feel at all comfortable with Dementors. In fact, she's in quite the state when she tells Dumbledore about what happened, isn't she? You think that's fury? That's not fury. That's terror comingled with profound relief. That's a post- adrenaline rush "there but for the grace of God went I" moment, which she then Ever So Cleverly exploits to lend credence to her whole Flustered Woman act. Still not convinced that Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil? No? Not even after all of that? Well, okay. How about we look at her appearance in the very first chapter of the very first book then? First off, McGonagall's very appearance on Privet Drive that morning is *highly* suspicious. Just what precisely is she doing there, anyway? She implies that she has been waiting there for Dumbledore - - and yet she keeps herself hidden from him, only revealing herself once he makes it clear that he knows perfectly well that she is there. She claims that Hagrid was the one who told her that he would be there -- but only after Dumbledore himself first suggests that possibility to her, and she changes the subject very quickly thereafter. She waits outside of the house on Privet Drive *all day long,* even though it seems clear that Hagrid and Dumbledore had prearranged to meet there only after nightfall. Wouldn't Hagrid have mentioned that fact to her, if he had really been the one to tell her that she could find Dumbledore at 4 Privet Drive? And when Hagrid finally shows up, he says absolutely nothing which supports her claim that she had spoken to him earlier that day. No "Oh, Professor McGonagall, found the place all right, then?" Nothing like that. And when precisely would McGonagall have spoken to Hagrid, anyway? It wasn't at Godric's Hollow. She is surprised to learn that Hagrid has been entrusted with the infant Harry. It couldn't have been after Godric's Hollow for the same reason. Also, she arrived at Privet Drive early enough in the day for Vernon Dursley to see her on his way to work that morning. And if it were *before* Godric's Hollow, then why on earth wouldn't she have spoken to Dumbledore earlier that day? She is addressed as "Professor," so presumably she already works at Hogwarts. Couldn't she have spoken to him there, or sought him out wherever he spent the rest of the day, rather than hanging some miserable suburb all day long just to wait to talk to him? No. I think that she's lying. I don't believe that she came to Privet Drive because Hagrid told her that she could find Albus Dumbledore there. In fact, I don't believe that she came to Privet Drive to speak with Dumbledore at all. For one thing, just witness her response when Dumbledore first arrives: "A man appeared on the corner the cat had been watching, appeared so suddenly and silently you'd have thought he'd just popped out of the ground. The cat's tail twitched and its eyes narrowed." Now, I have two cats. And I have to tell you: tail-twitching and eye-narrowing is absolutely *not* how cats express pleasure at seeing someone they have been waiting all day to have a nice chat with. When cats twitch their tails and narrow their eyes, that is an expression of aggression, anxiety, or predatory intent. It is not friendly cat behavior. In fact, given that this particular cat is actually a witch in cat form, I would go so far as to say that she reacts to Dumbledore's appearance with outright *hatred.* And what does she do then? Does she resume her human form so that she can speak with this man she has supposedly been waiting for all day long? Does she greet him, as one might expect? No. She does not. She lurks in the shadows, watching him carefully. She does not reveal herself to him until he leaves her no other choice: "Dumbledore slipped the Put-Outer back inside his cloak and set off down the street towards number four, where he sat down on the wall next to the cat. He didn't look at it, but after a moment he spoke to it. 'Fancy seeing you here, Professor McGonagall.' He turned to smile at the tabby, but it had gone. Instead he was smiling at a rather severe-looking woman who was wearing square glasses exactly in the shape of the markings the cat had had around its eyes. She, too, was wearing a cloak, an emerald one. Her black hair was drawn into a tight bun. She looked distinctly ruffled. 'How did you know it was me?' she asked." Note the Slytherin green outfit. Note also that McGonagall is apparently surprised to learn that Dumbledore can recognize her in her animagus form. But the specific forms of registered animagi are a matter of public record! Hermione looks them up in _PoA._ So are we meant to understand that McGonagall was not, in fact, even *registered* at this point in time? Was her animaga status her own little secret? Does McGonagall have a criminal past? Nearly the entire wizarding world has been celebrating Voldemort's downfall all day long. People are ecstatic about what has happened. But McGonagall isn't. She is *furious,* although she tries to mask her fury as irritation with the celebrants' lack of prudence: "'When could you have been celebrating? I must have passed a dozen feasts and parties on my way here.' Professor McGonagall sniffed angrily. 'Oh yes, everyone's celebrating all right,' she said impatiently." "Angrily." Yeah, I'll bet she's angry. McGonagall is disdainful to the point of contempt when it comes to Muggles: "'You'd think they'd be a bit more careful, but no -- even the Muggles have noticed something's going on. It was on their news.' She jerked her head back at the Dursleys' dark living-room window. 'I heard it. Flocks of owls...shooting stars...Well, they're not completely stupid.'" Her agenda once she is speaking to Dumbledore is to pump him for information about Voldemort's rumored fall. She seems particularly desperate to learn whether it is really true that Voldemort has been vanquished: "'People are being downright careless, out on the streets in broad daylight, not even dressed in Muggle clothes, swapping rumours.' She threw a sharp, sideways glance at Dumbledore here, as though hoping he was going to tell her something, but he didn't, so she went on: 'A fine thing it would be if, on the very day You-Know-WHo seems to have disappeared at last, the Muggles found out about us all. I suppose he really *has* gone, Dumbledore?'" "Professor McGonagall shot a sharp look at Dumbledore and said, 'The owls are nothing to the *rumours* that are flying around. You know what everyone's saying? About why he's disappeared? About what finally stopped him?' It seemed that Professor McGonagall had reached the point she was most anxious to discuss, the real reason she had been waiting on a cold hard wall all day, for neither as a cat nor as a woman had she fixed Dumbledore with such a piercing stare as she did now." Boy. Jo sure didn't want us to miss that, huh? It's *important* to the author that the reader understand how very anxious McGonagall is to learn the truth of this matter, as well as to note that she goes about trying to get this information out of Dumbledore in an oddly indirect fashion. It is absolutely essential that the reader understand this. Although she affects shock and grief when she learns that the Potters are dead, McGonagall's voice only actually begins to *tremble* when she approaches the possibility that voldemort may truly have been unable to kill Harry, and that his powers have now been broken. It is only when she gains confirmation of this fact that she actually"falters:" "'It's--it's *true?*' faltered Professor McGonagall. 'After all he's done...all the people he's killed...he couldn't kill a little boy? It's just astounding...of all the things to stop him...but how in the name of heaven did Harry survive?'" Notice how quickly she corrects herself from her initial estimation of Voldemort's power ("after all he's done") to one more in keeping with a position of emnity towards Voldemort's cause ("all the people he's killed"). It is only after she is assured that indeed, it is true that Voldemort is gone that McGonagall actually begins to weep. I also find myself wondering about all of that "too noble to use all the powers at your disposal" stuff. Just how long has McGonagall been feeding Dumbledore that line, anyway? From the very start, perhaps? Might that not in fact have been one of her *jobs?* To try to ensure that no matter how ugly the conflict might become, Dumbledore would continue to place limits on his own actions? To try to subvert and weaken the enemy? And you think that *Snape* is the likely Big Shock Betrayer of this series? Nah. Snape betraying Dumbledore wouldn't be a shocker. McGonagall, though? Now, wouldn't that be something. Not Dumbledore's left- hand, but his right-hand. Not the head of House Slytherin, but the head of House Gryffindor. Not the Designated Red Herring, but instead the very first member of the wizarding world that the reader ever *met?* Now *that* would be a shocker. *That* would be betrayal. And not just for Dumbledore himself, but for everyone: Harry, Snape, all of House Gryffindor. And particularly for Hermione, of course. Hermione, who has that protege/mentor thing going with our dear Minerva. From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Thu May 19 02:42:18 2005 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:42:18 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129146 > Betsy: ...I believe that in ancient times, the king was responsible for the health of the land. When the land was sick it was the king's responsiblity to bring healing... I believe there was also an idea that the shedding of the king's blood would cleanse the land.< Heidi: Wow...it's been ages since I posted, but this little bit grabbed me. We know that some of Harry's blood was used in Voldemort's "resurrection" at the graveyard. When I read the bit about blood cleansing the land, I saw that gleam in Dumbledore's eyes again! That's all...makes you think. Heidi R. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu May 19 02:50:43 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 02:50:43 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129147 >>a_svirn: >Um, I didn't marvel at the way human rights organisation work. I merely pointed out that Hermione does indeed see herself as liberator of house-elves. Not just any liberator but the founder and the head of the liberation front. And I think it was strange and even uncharacteristic of her, that she didn't research the problem first. Her normal attitude is "when in doubt go to the library". In this instance she goes to the library but for all the wrong reasons.< Betsy: I was under the impression that you saw as useless the entire concept of SPEW. Later on in the area I snipped you said: "She delights in developing this stupid bureaucracy and inventing ridiculous names yet she doesn't spare even a fleeting thought on how elves come to be enslaved and what kind magic is involved." So I was showing that Hermione creating an Elf Liberation movement was not actually the *obviously* colossal waste of time you seemed to be implying it was. I imagine Hermione was looking for other such movements, and probably an overview of the laws governing house-elf rights while in the library. I think she probably researched the *legal* issues (shades of Buckbeak) because the problem was so obvious as to not need research. Hermione way over-simplified the issue, yes, but in a way I think to be very much in character for her. >>Betsy: >Actually, I think Hermione sees herself more as a budding political activist. And I think she's genuinely interested in her cause.< >>a_svirn: >I never claimed that she is UNinterested. No did I say that she is a hardened cynic. She is actually quite decent sort of person on most occasions. But is it really such a big difference between a political activist and a politician? I'd say a politician is a political activist who succeeded. And Hermione is clearly determined to succeed.< Betsy: Do you think it's wrong of Hermione to want to succeed? She does get a bit grating, and her sneak attack on the Hogwarts house-elves is a very wrong tactic, IMO. But her overall wish for a more equal WW, and respect for all the creatures that inhabit it is a good one. And I feel like, as Hermione matures, it's one she may very well have a hand in bringing about. (Honestly, I think Harry will be the main catalyst for that sort of radical change.) >>a_svirn: >Yes, you are probably right about Ron.< Betsy: Yay! >>Betsy: >But I think Hermione is trying, and I also think that empathy is the thing that comes very hard to her.< >>a_svirn: >Is it though? I seem to remember a number of occasions when she experienced no difficulty empathizing.< Betsy: Not on the first level, no. Just as a refresher course, here is Sophierom's three levels of empathy (see message 129070). >1. I try to step into your shoes, as it were; I ask myself how I would feel if I were in your position. 2. I step back and try to understand how YOU actually feel in this situation. 3. Finally, I ask, WHY do you feel the way you do?< In the examples you listed, I think once Hermione figured out how *she'd* feel in that situation, she had a pretty good grasp on how the other person was feeling. House-elves have such a different way of looking at the world, they demand the second level if one has hope of understanding them. Hermione, in my opinion, has yet to reach that level. >>a_svirn: >And when she leapt to Winky's defence in the face of the incriminating evidence and stood bravely up to the top Ministry officials on her behalf ? what is it, if not empathy?< Betsy: The first step of empathy, yes. Hermione acted the way she'd hope other's would react if she was in Winky's position. But when Hermione argues with Mr. Crouch, I don't think Winky really appreciated Hermione's interference. Because, and this is what Hermione cannot understand, Winkly is completely loyal to Mr. Crouch. IIRC, Winky does not consider Hermione her friend. >>a_svirn: >Because you see, SPEW is not about elves it is about Hermione's self- justification. In itself her need to justify herself is not such a bad thing. She was struck by realisation that she with her fine principles had actually benefited from the slaves' labour... >She needed something, anything to reconcile her consciousness with the continuing use of slaves. So she devised SPEW.< Betsy: This strikes me as too cynical. I think Hermione came to the conclusion that her refusal to eat, or her leaving Hogwarts would change nothing. (Which is correct. She's a no-name muggleborn; who'd care if she starved or left?) Hermione wants to bring about change. She thinks SPEW is the way to do it. Period. >>Betsy: >And she gives him a Christmas quilt (without her name attached, IIRC) as a present. I don't think Hermione thought the present would soothe all of Kreacher's troubles. It was a token, an outreaching. There's nothing wrong, nothing even condescending, in her gesture. I see nothing arrogant about it.< >>a_svirn: >A token of what? Friendship? To give a token of friendship to someone who ostensibly despises you and has expressed more than once his cherished wish ? to see you gone ? IS condescending.< Betsy: If it was mere personal friendship, Hermione would have put her name on the quilt. I think Hermione was trying to show Kreacher that he was cared for, that he didn't need to hold onto his hatred, that he was worthy of receiving a gift. In short, she was trying to break him out of the vicious hold the Black family had on him. She *way* underestimated his loyalty, but she wasn't condescending to him. (And personally, I see nothing condescending in reaching out a hand to those who've expressed hatred towards you. Not if you're genuine about it. It may not work, but the suggestion that someone else is worth your time and effort strikes me as just about the opposite of condescension.) >>a_svirn: >Good will? Having methodically destroyed everything that matters for Kreacher she then "reaches out" with a blanket? Well, it is at the very least arrogant.< Betsy: That *Hermione* destroyed?!? Hermione is a child in that household. Kreacher hates her the worst because she is a muggleborn and he's been brought up on a diet of the ugliest kind of racism. It's *Molly* who declared war on the House of Black, and it's Sirius who fails in his duty as master of the house and allows Molly to do her work. Hermione defiles Kreachers house by breathing. Though he might prefer Hermione commit ritual suicide, she gives him a quilt instead. If Hermione thought that was all Kreacher needed, than yes, I could agree with your assessment that she was arrogant. But Hermione did not think the quilt would fix everything. She just hoped it could help. Betsy, who would like to point out that Yahoo!Mort ate my first post. Again. This time I cleverly cut and pasted, so yay! Who knows what that will do to the format. Nothing good I'm betting. *sigh* From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 19 03:09:43 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 03:09:43 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: Because if she were consistent about it (and Hermione is nothing if not consistent) she would have to forfeit her place in Hogwarts altogether. Certainly she wasn't prepared for such a sacrifice. Pippin: You're saying she should have sacrificed her place at Hogwarts as a matter of principle? But how would that have helped the Elves? And I certainly don't see that her campaign to help the Elves is a plot to help her break into wizarding world politics. She could hardly have picked a less popular cause -- not what I'd expect from a budding demagogue. I do agree that Hermione is condescending. Her need to see the Elves as innocent and helpless is demeaning to them. In her anxiety to prove them worthy of better choices, she's invalidating the choices they have. But I'm not as convinced as you are that Hermione deliberately chose not to research the history. She says that House Elf enslavement goes back centuries, and my guess is that's all she was able to find out. Probably there are no historical records about the enslavement any more than there are records of the domestication of dogs. Whatever is known about the enchantments themselves is doubtless in the Restricted Section. Perhaps now that Hermione is taking NEWT level classes, she'll have access. Pippin From anurim at yahoo.com Thu May 19 01:24:08 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 18:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: DRIBBLE SHADOWS addendum In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050519012408.24290.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129149 Spilling Margaritas all over her sarong, in a pitiful attempt to ape the refined lifestyle of TBAY inhabitants, newbie Mira rushes to say: First of all, the DRIBBLE SHADOWS ship seems very alluring to me. It connects nicely and credibly a few loose ends: the 12 uses of dragon blood, the missing 24 hours, Harry's vulnerability located in his eyes. Now, a simple explanation for Harry's vulnerable point might be that his vision is dependent on glasses; should they be shattered, he would be almost helpless in front of a powerful enemy (unless he would find somewhere else inside him the power to see). However, I find strange that, as far as I remember, every time people comment on Harry's eyes, they never say: "Your eyes look remarkably like your mother's", but "You have your mother's eyes," Is this sentence perhaps meant to be taken less figuratively? If there are occurences in the book where the similarity is formulated in a different way, I would be grateful to anybody who points them out. In the dreams he had while still living with the Dursleys, Harry never remembers the swishing sound, like some force moving through the air, that AK makes when demonstrated by the false Mad-Eye. Only a _blinding_ flash of _green_ _light_ and a burning pain in his forehead. Is it a coincidence that his eyes are green, same as the flash of light (or, we could say, the light of his eyes is green)? Could it be that Lily's eyes were somehow transferred on Harry, automatically or through a subsequent operation? Does the scar originates from the curse or perhaps from the operation? Was Harry blinded by the curse, perhaps? One more thing I don't understand is: did Voldemort kill Lily first then sent a second curse that rebounded off Harry? Or did he aim at Harry, and Lily threw herself in the way of the curse? After the exchanges he hears when affected by Dementors, Harry remembers Voldemort's laughter and a woman's scream. We know AK kills instantly, when did Lily have time to scream and why? The second scenario, where Lily threw herself in front of Harry to protect him and the curse rebounded off Lily, not off Harry, explains perfectly why the missing AK didn't come out of Voldemort's wand when it was connected with Harry's in GoF. But if the curse rebounded off Lily, where did the scar come from? Could it be that the force of the spell somehow threw Lily's eyes in her son's face, or, less graphically, that Lily transfered her light to Harry, and it was this light, not the curse, that he dreams of? When Cedric is killed, Harry's eyes sting from the curse passing close to him. Could it be that his eyes were deteriorated already in the night at GH? Is this perhaps why he's wearing glasses? Are the eyes his or Lily's? Were Lily's eyes magical in any sense, perhaps similar to Mad Eye Moody's, except they had the power to see through the soul of people and not through substance as such? What happened with Lily's and James' bodies anyway? AK should have left them intact, and we never hear anything about them. Were they left for muggles to bury? Did Hagrid need the motorbike to transport only Harry, or a heavier load? About the missing 24 hours, I'd like to point out an interesting discussion we had on HPANA. Somebody asked why did the owner of the Leaky Cauldron greet Harry with 'Welcome back' I took it to mean 'Welcome back to the wizarding world', but could it have meant that Harry had been at the LC before? Was perhaps there the place where Hagrid took him to wait until night, when muggles would be asleep and he could meet Dumbledore in Privet Drive without anybody noticing? However, Hagrid says that Harry fell asleep over Bristol (if I am not mistaken); I always thought the Dursleys live close to London, and Vernon commutes to London for work. Was this a wrong assumption? Why would somebody pass over Bristol in the way from London to London (or from Hogwarts to London for that matter)? Where exactly is GH? Far in space or perhaps in space and also in time? Just a few (a lot of, unfortunately) thoughts, not a theory as such yet, but I would be very glad if somebody took my posting seriously and commented on it. Thanks for reading and sorry for the length, Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 19 03:37:51 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 03:37:51 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: JKR has not put any signs of royalty in the WW (no reference to > an actual noble class), so it would be awfully jarring if someone > suddenly pulled a crown out of nowhere. Which is why I strongly > suspect the half-blood prince will either be an actual half-blood > (meaning human + non-human) and the title comes from the non-human > side of the family, or he's from a foreign land. (If of course, the > half-blood prince is an individual at all.) > Tonks: I think that there are a lot of signs that there was royality in the past history of Hogwarts and the WW. We don't see any currently. There may be in other countries. What I want to know is how can one become a King without first being a prince? And what do all of the clues along the way mean? Clues like "Weasley is our King", and Harry's dream (which I don't really remember), and the new one about Neville being the one who almost was King. Maybe the Half-Blood prince is an evil person about Harry's age. Maybe I have been watching too much of this TV Revelation movie! But if Harry is going to be any kind of a King... OH I just have a idea... Chess.. the Chess match again.. Harry is the King!! But this still doesn't tell us about the Prince. ;-( Tonks_op From donnawonna at worldnet.att.net Wed May 18 15:59:05 2005 From: donnawonna at worldnet.att.net (Donna) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 11:59:05 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Pets at Hogwarts Message-ID: <428B6649.000003.02364@D33LDD51> No: HPFGUIDX 129151 I feel this has been discussed at another time but it has just occurred to me. In the US version of SS, Chapter 5, page 67, in Harry's list of supplies that came with his welcoming letter it says, "Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad. I don't recall seeing a mention of any animals except Fawkes, owls, cats, Trevor the toad, and the animals that Hagrid cares for. How does Ron justify his rat, Scabbers? Have I missed something? Donna [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Thu May 19 04:53:45 2005 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 04:53:45 -0000 Subject: Papa Snape (was Re: more on JKR website update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129152 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Potioncat: > >>> I mean, I know each and everyone of us has wondered about Snape > and Luna....No, really, has anyone ever heard this rumor before?<<< > > Tonks: > >> Who is their right might would ever wonder if Snape was Luna's > father? Or Harry's, or the squids for that matter. << > > Barmaid: > > She is most likely playing with us, I agree, but I do sort of like > > the idea that there is a Snapelet somewhere. I like the kinds of > > theories that include Snape's family having something to do with > > Snape's return to the fold. (oh and I do think he has really > > returned to the fold.... he just has a very damaged heart and > > can't quiet get to "good" yet.) > > > SSSusan: > Nope, I'd not heard the Luna is Snape's daughter theory, at least > not put forth seriously. > > Going along with Barmaid, one theory about Papa Snape I have heard > is Kneasy's. Admittedly, the gender of the child would have no > bearing on matters, but still.... It's that Snape was indeed > married, perhaps to Florence, and had a child. At some point, > Voldemort killed or had them killed, and this is the reason Snape > turned away from Voldemort. > > Siriusly Snapey Susan Whizbang here: I've been surfing the internet looking for a Snape is Luna's father rumor. So far no luck. :/ Anyone figure it out, yet? Is this an inside out way of getting us to ask if Snape has a son? I have a theory about Looney Luna being Loony loony Lupin's daughter, but ..... From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Thu May 19 05:05:28 2005 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 05:05:28 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129153 > Sue(hpfan) now: > Sue(hpfan) who believes Harry mastered Occlumency (even if he doesn't > know it yet) despite Snape, not because of him. And that Occlumency > never would/will help against Voldemort because of the link between > the two. Whizbang: I think you're right on both counts. But I do think Snape left the pensieve for Harry to see. And it had exactly the effect he wanted, Harry doubted his father. It rattled Harry's belief that James was a good person. He's been telling Harry since day one how bad James was and that Harry is just like him. I think this was a deliberate illustration. The problem is, I think Harry reached all the wrong conclusions, because Snape was always the aggressor and the Marauders, with a terrible secret to protect, were always on the defensive, even in SWM. From fuzzlebub85 at aol.com Thu May 19 05:35:13 2005 From: fuzzlebub85 at aol.com (fuzzlebub85 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 01:35:13 EDT Subject: Snape's child/ren? Evidently not a daughter...TBAY (from IM with Julie!) Message-ID: <78.735756c5.2fbd7f91@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129154 Kaylee Tonks-Lupin and Julie: Kaylee Tonks-Lupin sat on the shore of Theory Bay, after swabbing the deck of the good ship DRIBBLE SHADOWS until it shone. Captain SSSusan had given her a break, and she clinked her margarita glass together with her good friend Julie as they watched the sun set. "You know what I've been thinking about, Julie?" Kaylee asked seriously. "What?" Julie inquired. "Our good Professor Snape. You know my Captain is Siriusly Snapey Susan, of course, and that got me thinking. J.K. Rowling recently claimed that Professor Snape is not Luna's father; she said, in fact, that he had no daughters. No daughters. That screams 'but he has a son' at me...odd, but it rings true. In that case, could his son be someone we know?" Kaylee asked. "It could be," Julie replies. "Who is the question." "That's true. So I've been sorting through all the possible candidates. We know Harry is impossible, as JKR already vetoed that one. I'm quite sure Neville is just as unlikely, seeing how Professor Snape treats him in class. It's just speculation, but I'm guessing that any Gryffindor would be out of the question. I believe that our answer lies in Slytherin House; Draco Malfoy. There are several instances in canon where Snape praises Draco and favors him, like the scene in PoA with Draco's so-called injury." "I think it might be a student going to another school, hidden for his safety. Like, for instance, Viktor Krum. If the boy is still alive, and wasn't killed by Voldemort years ago (precipitating Snape's desertion of the Dark side)." "Krum's possible," Kaylee admitted. "Of course, we're told in GoF that Krum looks like his father. But then, Draco supposedly looks like Lucius. Maybe a potion altered the appearance of the boy." She turned her head toward Julie incredulously when Julie mentioned the idea of the boy being dead. "Or...quite possibly...Snape's son could be...wait for it...the Half-Blood Prince!" Kaylee exclaimed triumphantly. "Especially if he's dead already!" "This will be one good book when it finally comes out!" Julie exulted, wishing it wasn't still two months away. Kaylee agreed wholeheartedly. "Do you think this theory is used already, or could it use a ship of its own, maybe?" she pondered, staring out over Theory Bay. "Not that I'm going to leave my Captain," she added hastily. "I wouldn't mind captaining my own ship *and* being a shipmate on DRIBBLE SHADOWS at the same time. I'm not too particular." Kaylee nodded as Julie explained that "Half-Blood Prince!Snape'sSon had probably been used, though maybe not Dead!Half-Blood Prince!Snape'sSon. "So is it still acceptable? I'm a newbie at this," she said slowly. "Maybe I'd better ask Captain Susan before going any farther," she added. "I'm kind of inexperienced at it too," Julie said. "The captain no doubt knows best." "Probably," Kaylee said finally. "Any more margaritas, Julie?" she added hastily as the sun began slipping below the horizon. "I'm good," Julie said sleepily. Kaylee grinned and playfully emptied the box of non-alcoholic margarita mix over Julie's pillow as Julie flopped down in her sleeping bag. Laughing softly, she crawled into her own bag, hoping her friend wouldn't notice the prank. Luckily for Kaylee, Julie was already out, snoring happily. ;-) Kaylee Tonks-Lupin, signaling Captain SSSusan and any other takers! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Thu May 19 07:28:45 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 07:28:45 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129155 > Sophierom: > > Whether Dumbledore approves of Hermione's "blunt" methods or not, he > certainly approves of action: "Indifference and neglect often do more > damage," he argues. Of course, you may disagree with Dumbledore. Chys: *butting in on an odd note* I agree with this, but in DD's own words- "Indifference and neglect often do more damage," on his treatment of -Harry- that year. He ignored him completely and didn't quite know how that had affected him, even if he did do it with his said good intentions; what was it, fear that he'd be spied on and Harry posessed? I don't think he gave much of an excuse. On Hermione being blunt, I think it's just how she goes about things, the direct approach. She sees the slavery as wrong and wants to do something about it, even if it is for selfish reasons, of which I am not certain, but I think she would be good as an adult in the fight for magical creature's rights, no matter her aim (selfishness?) as a child. I think Harry's friendships with so many other races has influenced this somewhat. Now that I have gone back and finally reread this section, I don't see how being nice to Kreacher would have changed things much in the long run anyway- it seems like a long shot, and a weak one at that. If they would have set him free to start with, he would have gone straight to Lestrange anyway, and told her that Sirius was at his house and had set him free (for it's Sirius that would have to set him free as Sirius is his master. Harry couldn't just give Dobby his sock and set him free, he had to trick Malfoy into doing it.) *sigh* With Kreacher it seems to be a no win situation. I think if he's still alive in the next book, Harry will ream him a new.... ah, yes. *butting out now* Chys From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu May 19 11:36:59 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:36:59 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129156 > > Sophierom: > > > > Whether Dumbledore approves of Hermione's "blunt" methods or not, > he > > certainly approves of action: "Indifference and neglect often do > more > > damage," he argues. Of course, you may disagree with Dumbledore. > > Chys: > > *butting in on an odd note* I agree with this, but in DD's own words- > "Indifference and neglect often do more damage," on his treatment > of -Harry- that year. He ignored him completely and didn't quite > know how that had affected him, even if he did do it with his said > good intentions; what was it, fear that he'd be spied on and Harry > posessed? I don't think he gave much of an excuse. Sophierom: Interesting connection! Yes, I think Dumbledore needed to listen to his own advice there. Although he was using that phrase to talk about wizards and other magical creatures, I do think you're right; he could easily have been using it to talk about his own mistakes with Harry. Chys: On Hermione being > blunt, I think it's just how she goes about things, the direct > approach. She sees the slavery as wrong and wants to do something > about it, even if it is for selfish reasons, of which I am not > certain, but I think she would be good as an adult in the fight for > magical creature's rights, no matter her aim (selfishness?) as a > child. I think Harry's friendships with so many other races has > influenced this somewhat. > > Now that I have gone back and finally reread this section, I don't see > how being nice to Kreacher would have changed things much in the long > run anyway- it seems like a long shot, and a weak one at that. If they > would have set him free to start with, he would have gone straight to > Lestrange anyway, and told her that Sirius was at his house and had > set him free (for it's Sirius that would have to set him free as > Sirius is his master. Harry couldn't just give Dobby his sock and set > him free, he had to trick Malfoy into doing it.) *sigh* With Kreacher > it seems to be a no win situation. I think if he's still alive in the > next book, Harry will ream him a new.... ah, yes. > > *butting out now* Sophierom: I agree that, even had Sirius and the others been kind to Kreacher, the house-elf wouldn't have changed at this point in his life. But I do think Dumbledore wanted them to be more than kind (and this is also where Hermione failed, as a_svirn has pointed out): no one (except possibly Harry and Dumbledore) understood Kreacher's perspective. Ron thought Kreacher was "nutters," Hermione thought him "strange," and Sirius didn't take him seriously. If he had, then he wouldn't have flippantly ordered him to get out of his sight at Christmas. So, I think Dumbledore's larger message in this speech at the end of OotP is that wizards have to respect house-elves (perhaps this means being kind AND recognizing Kreacher's inherent danger; to ignore Kreacher's ability to cause harm would be to think him too weak to do any damage). Had Sirius respected Kreacher enough to see him as an adversary, then perhaps he'd have been more careful with the house-elf and Kreacher might never have had the chance to report to Narcissa. The debate about Hermione and Kreacher does not, for me, center around whether or not Hermione succeeds in respecting the house-elves; as others including a_svirn have shown, she ultimately does not respect them in the way she should. For me, it's about Hermione's intentions and her ultimate goals. I think Hermione sincerely wants to help the house-elves (and not for personal gain). But I think, at this point in her emotional development, she can't help them because she's unable to see past her own concepts of respect and freedom. If she's ever able to see the house-elves' perspectives, then SPEW will be an organization to take seriously (though I do hope she changes the name! ;-D) All the best, Sophie From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 19 11:39:17 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 11:39:17 -0000 Subject: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129157 Alla channeling Elkins wrote: (Elkins): > Nah. Snape betraying Dumbledore wouldn't be a shocker. McGonagall, > though? Now, wouldn't that be something. Not Dumbledore's left- > hand, but his right-hand. Not the head of House Slytherin, but the > head of House Gryffindor. Not the Designated Red Herring, but > instead the very first member of the wizarding world that the reader > ever *met?* > > Now *that* would be a shocker. *That* would be betrayal. And not > just for Dumbledore himself, but for everyone: Harry, Snape, all of > House Gryffindor. And particularly for Hermione, of course. > Hermione, who has that protege/mentor thing going with our dear > Minerva. > Potioncat: Thanks, Alla, for bringing out more vintage Elkins. We'll have to come up with a title for you. Now, as to the post... ESE!McGonagall, hmmm. I've seen this before. Yes, well. Take a look at this: The sorting hat tried to put Harry into Slytherin for protection as much as anything...giving him the loyal Head of House but he couldn't push too much and sorted Harry into Gryffindor. McGonagall almost always wears Green. When Black got into Gryffindor, McGonagall was more upset than DD and even more upset than Snape. She knows Black was framed and she would be at risk if Black was wandering around the castle. In fact, she may have been the one who sent Peter to the Weasleys. She's certainly seen him about the castle and has provided a nice cozy common room for him all these years. When Barty Jr almost blew it by turning Draco into a ferret, she's the one who stopped him. He may have a grudge against the ones who walked free, but McGonagall has to work with Lucius. Of course, there is the fact that she knows the secret location to the Order HQ. Then again, she isn't able to reveal it. Curious, very curious. Potioncat From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Thu May 19 12:36:00 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 12:36:00 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > Maybe the Half-Blood prince is an evil person about Harry's age. > Maybe I have been watching too much of this TV Revelation movie! > But if Harry is going to be any kind of a King... OH I just have a > idea... Chess.. the Chess match again.. Harry is the King!! But > this still doesn't tell us about the Prince. ;-( > > Tonks_op Well, reading the chess game in PS, it looks like Harry took the place of a bishop. However, at the end of the game, he was given a crown... "The white king took off his crown and threw it at Harry's feet." -PS The white king *could* have given it to Ron or Hermione, or the black king. Instead, he picked Harry... From kjones at telus.net Thu May 19 00:30:35 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 18 May 2005 17:30:35 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428BDE2B.9040305@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129159 Betsy: > But though Snape will bitch and moan (or snark and sneer), he's > generally been a team player (assuming he's playing for the team). > From the first book on, he's been Dumbledore's right hand man, even > when the job is to protect Harry. And though he's obviously not > thrilled with the Occlumency project Snape does (apparently) tell > Dumbledore he'll do it. And for several weeks, he does. (snip) > > (And it seemed to me that the pensieve incident *was* the breaking > point for Snape. He'd been less than thrilled with Harry, but he > was still doing the lessons with no sign of quitting until that > time.) Kathy writes: I find this whole scene in the book interesting.If Snape is a spy, why would Dumbledore want to give V a glimpse of Snape teaching Harry Occlumency??? Dumbledore also does not listen when Snape tells him something ( don't hire Lupin, you can't trust him). Snape makes it plain that he can't stand Harry, so perhaps he set up the penseive in the hope that Harry would give him a reason to throw a conniption. It seems that the only way to convince Dumbledore is to threaten Harry. Presumably Snape has put an end to his Occlumency lessons. There doesn't seem to be rational explanation for him losing his cool in front of the Minister in POA. Maybe that was just temper. It doesn't seem very Slytherin of him though, does it. KJ From watersign21 at yahoo.com Thu May 19 05:04:14 2005 From: watersign21 at yahoo.com (laura) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 05:04:14 -0000 Subject: why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldemort while he had the chance... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129160 Well that's the question now isn't it, why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldemort when he had the chance? My first thought is because, if Voldemort and Harry are so connected, would killing him, affect Harry in any way? Could it possibly kill him too? Just a thought, if anyone has a bit of enlightenment for me, it would be refreshing. Laura B. From inkling108 at yahoo.com Thu May 19 14:16:00 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 14:16:00 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129161 Valky wrote: > A long while ago I came up with a theory called prophecy Instrument, > which postulates that the recipient of a prophecy rather than the > subject becomes the vessel through which it can be fulfilled. > > Basically contriving from this, that Dumbledore's actions in > 'preparing' and 'setting up' Harry as the vanquisher of the Dark Lord > are how it is fulfilled, (although at the end of OOtP he begins to > look back on it thinking it all a mistake - like Harry when he > timeturns thinking he can correct the mistake of letting Peter go) and > in spite of all this doubt somehow what Dumbledore does as the burden > carrier of the prophecy fulfills it in the end. > > I figured part i of that was already played out; the eavesdropper told > LV about the prophecy thereby machinating the part he heard (ie the > 'mark him as his equal' part of the prophecy). Inkling now: Then are you saying that Dumbledore set up the eavesdropper, knowing that when Voldemort heard about the prophecy he would unwittingly set it in motion? Here's how I see the different responses to the prophecy: Voldy -- interventionist. Obsessive and reactive personality (you could say his whole life is a reaction to the circumstances of his birth) he swiftly and reflexively tries to intervene and seize control of the threat. Obviously hasn't read Shakespeare or the ancient Greeks, but hey, who has time when you're trying to become the evil Lord of the World? The prophecy *needs* Voldy to be Voldy, and he complies beautifully. Dumbledore -- custodial. I don't see him so much as fulfilling the prophecy as enabling its possible fulfillment. He is old, wise, reflective and takes the broad view of someone who has been around long enough to see it all (you can be sure *he* has read the Bard, the Greeks and everyone else). His duty, as he sees it, has been to keep hope (Harry) alive. It will be interesting to see if he takes it up a notch in the coming books, for example, by becoming a true mentor to Harry and training him. (I really hope so and the cover art is encouraging.) It will also be interesting to find out just how Dumbledore views prophecy. Does he view the fulfillment as inevitable, or just one possibility among many? Harry -- ????? Once it all sinks in, what will he do? We know he'll tell his close friends, so their reactions (especially Hermione's) will figure in the mix too. We can expect Voldy and Dumbledore to stay pretty much true to form, but there's no predicting what Harry will do. He is young, a work in progress, and he has a reckless streak plus that power the Dark Lord knows not. Oh, and raging hormones too. Anything could happen. Valky: > The Power the Dark Lord knows not and the Hand of the other, are by > this hypothesis things that are fulfilled in Harry by the person who > heard this part of the prophecy that is Dumbledore. > > But would that mean the power the Dark Lord knows not isn't from Lily???? > Inkling: Valky, could you explain what you mean? How could Dumbledore have given him the power? I'm a little lost here. Thanks. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 19 15:14:46 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:14:46 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129162 > a_svirn: > > Yes, I know. But I'm afraid DD is either not completely truthful or > not quite aware. Sirius might not really hate Kreacher (*hatred* is > indeed a bit too strong a word, better be reserved to the likes of > Snape), but he certainly dislikes him extremely. And the closer the > end of OotP is the more it looks like a real revulsion. It is certainly doesn't bespeak of indifference when a grown man ? and one we've been told who is generally kind to elves? never misses an opportunity to taunt and bully the poor broken creature Kreacher. Pippin: Dumbledore meant that Sirius was indifferent to Kreacher's feelings, not his presence, IMO. The people Sirius hated-- Snape, Crouch, Pettigrew and dear old Mum-- were out of reach , so he taunted and bullied Kreacher, who had done nothing worse than be rude to Sirius and his friends and fail to pay attention or complete his assignments --hmmm, that sounds familiar, doesn't it? Hermione's mistake is thinking that the House Elves have to be weak and innocent or they aren't deserving. But she should understand that equal rights are not a form of charity. It's not easy to maintain that Kreacher should have been given his freedom when he so obviously intended to abuse it. But that is what equality demands. Dumbledore sees what Hermione doesn't, that true equality would mean that House Elves have as much right to be black sheep as wizards do. After all, Sirius was the most notorious Death Eater ever taken alive, but he wasn't deprived of the right to own property. Marietta was branded as a sneak and memory charmed when it was feared she might give away secrets -- not imprisoned for life. Draco shows far more sign of going to the Dark Side than Kreacher did, but we'd be shocked if the good guys took away his wand and sentenced him to a lifetime of menial labor on that account (although I can't help thinking that it might be good for him) Pippin From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Thu May 19 15:19:49 2005 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:19:49 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Entry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129163 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly. I believe she will die defending Harry or another Weasley. (Though I think it likely that we will lose more than just one major character.) 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) One of the four founders ? probably Godric, but possibly Salazar. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) We will learn about her abilities with "charms" and find out what she did for work (before Harry's birth). It will turn out that she was involved with some Unspeakable work at the Ministry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? New character...probably the "Lion guy." (I think this person will be from "Spinner's End." Perhaps this place is involved with creating invisibility cloaks?) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Susan Bones. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory. (And it will be bad.) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is a cauldron of some sort ? Potions will play an important role in Book 6. Perhaps a large Pensieve-type thing that can also be used as a cauldron for "looking" into the past instead of just taking your own memories out for storage. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Oh yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Oh yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Eight. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Fred and George, having now left Hogwarts, will join the Order in addition to becoming increasingly wealthy with their Wizarding Shoppe. They will invent things of great use to the Order. Their Mum will be a bit chagrinned, but secretly proud. 2. We will learn the full story behind Snape. 3. Ron and Hermione will finally begin to warm up to each other and their relationship see the stirrings of...well, a relationship! 4. Aberforth (Dumbledore's brother) will make another appearance and turn out to be the bartender from the Hog's Head. 5. Mrs. Diggory will turn out to be either a traitor or an actual DE (she wants revenge on Harry whom she now blames for Cedric's death). From heidi at barefootpuppets.com Thu May 19 15:32:40 2005 From: heidi at barefootpuppets.com (barefootpuppets) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:32:40 -0000 Subject: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129164 Alla: > Now, I don't really believe that Professor McGonagall is Voldemort's > servant in disguise, although analysis is so very convicing, but one > thing did bother me in GoF... > > Why did Dumbledore not let Minerva in on Sirius' secret? Now, I do > understand why he sent away Madame Pomfrey, but Minerva is his > Deputy, supposedly his trusted second, why didn't Dumbledore make > her stay? Elkins: > Snape betraying Dumbledore wouldn't be a shocker. McGonagall, > though? Now, wouldn't that be something. Not Dumbledore's left- > hand, but his right-hand. Not the head of House Slytherin, but the > head of House Gryffindor. Not the Designated Red Herring, but > instead the very first member of the wizarding world that the reader > ever *met?* > > Now *that* would be a shocker. *That* would be betrayal. And not > just for Dumbledore himself, but for everyone: Harry, Snape, all of > House Gryffindor. And particularly for Hermione, of course. > Hermione, who has that protege/mentor thing going with our dear > Minerva. > Heidi R: This is an excellent look at everything...I really like this twist (though I want to believe that Minerva is true and it's all just coincidental). My only question would be "Why did she help Hagrid then, go out and defend him in OotP when he was being removed during Harry's Astronomy exam?" Of course, my second "note to self" is that Minerva was conveniently absent (due to her injuries) at the final showdown at the Ministry. Did she purposefully go forward to be injured so her cover would not be blown? Hmmmm.... Heidi R. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 19 15:48:15 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 15:48:15 -0000 Subject: why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldemort while he had the chance... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > Well that's the question now isn't it, why didn't Dumbledore kill > Voldemort when he had the chance? My first thought is because, if > Voldemort and Harry are so connected, would killing him, affect Harry > in any way? Could it possibly kill him too? Just a thought, if anyone > has a bit of enlightenment for me, it would be refreshing. > Tonks: DD does not kill. It is against his moral code. AK is an unforgivable curse. The greatest wizard of all time did not become that by breaking the law. Therefore LV will be defeated by something greater than an AK. Any fool can AK someone. (and with LV it might not work anyway) It takes a wise man like DD to rise above the lawlessness of the world and do something else. And I for one think that in so doing it will be a lesson to the WW and MW and reader about the nature of evil and how to deal with it. Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 19 16:03:47 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:03:47 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shanoah Alkire" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > But if Harry is going to be any kind of a King... OH I just have an idea... Chess.. the Chess match again.. Harry is the King!! But > > this still doesn't tell us about the Prince. ;-( > > Shanoah said: > Well, reading the chess game in PS, it looks like Harry took the place of a bishop. However, at the end of the game, he was given a crown... "The white king took off his crown and threw it at Harry's feet." -PS The white king *could* have given it to Ron or Hermione, or the black king. Instead, he picked Harry... Tonks again: That has to be it. Harry is going to be the white king in the final battle and LV is the black king. That still doesn't tell us who the Half-Blood prince is. At this point my bet is still on GG. But I think that now at least we know how Harry becomes King without being a prince. Tonks_op From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Thu May 19 19:15:44 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:15:44 -0000 Subject: Pets at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <428B6649.000003.02364@D33LDD51> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > I feel this has been discussed at another time but it has just occurred to me. In the US version of SS, Chapter 5, page 67, in Harry's list of supplies that came with his welcoming letter it says, "Students may also bring an owl OR a cat OR a toad. I don't > recall seeing a mention of any animals except Fawkes, owls, cats, Trevor the toad, and the animals that Hagrid cares for. How does Ron justify his rat, Scabbers? Have I missed something? > > Donna > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] That has been a question many have asked, followed closely by, "How did the Weasley's get Scabbers in the first place?" Makes me wonder what all the Headmaster knew. It is quite possible that DD knew about Pettigrew/Scabbers, and though he may not have known he was the betrayer, he at least want to keep an eye on old Wormtail. Julie From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu May 19 19:45:06 2005 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:45:06 -0000 Subject: why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldemort while he had the chance... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > Well that's the question now isn't it, why didn't Dumbledore kill > Voldemort when he had the chance? My first thought is because, if > Voldemort and Harry are so connected, would killing him, affect Harry > in any way? Could it possibly kill him too? GEO: Would any attempt at killing Voldemort have succeeded considering that he was able to survive as a spirit after his killing curse rebounded the first time he lost his body? No doubt DD knows this and probably doesn't kill him because he seeks a permanent solution to Voldemort. From eyegortroll at hotmail.com Thu May 19 19:30:33 2005 From: eyegortroll at hotmail.com (Barnabas the Barmy) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 19:30:33 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129169 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Molly Weasley. She will be killed by Antonin Dolohov because, in his words "The only thing worse than a Weasley is a Prewitt" 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Salazar Slytherin. It will be revealed that Slytherin was a half-blood, his mother being Scottish royalty. Because his father railed about Muggle inferiority after her death in childbirth (much like Tom Riddle's birth), Slytherin became captivated by blood purity 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She is a direct descendant of Salazar Slytherin. While Her parents were muggles, her grandmother was a squib, and her great aunt was the mother of Tom Marvolo Riddle 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape, finally getting his wish 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Gabrielle Delacour. She will transfer to Hogwarts after coming to live with her sister for her own protection. Harry will realize that she was older than she appeared to him during the Tri-Wizard Tournament 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Mafalda Hopkirk, as a compromise candidate to prevent trouble between the Fudge and Dumbledore factions 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The mother of all pensieves, one which holds the collective memories of all deceased wizardkind who did not become ghosts 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, as Snape no longer is there to enforce the O minimum on your O.W.L. policy 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No, he will stick to his plants 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 11, considering two part O.W.L.s as separate exams 1.Rita Skeeter will parlay the fact that she was the only reporter to report the truth about LV's return (albeit not of her own choosing) into becoming publisher of the Daily Prophet 2.The spectres of Salazar Slytherin and the other founders (not ghosts) will appear before the entire school. After Slytherin denounces his former belief in blood purity as ill conceived, a split will form within Slytherin house between traditionalists (Malfoy, Crabbe, Goyle, Parkinson et al) and those accepting this new stance (Nott, Zambini and others). This appearance will occur either at the Sorting Ceremony or on Halloween. 3. Members of the breakaway Slytherin faction will join the D.A. 4. Some of the outlandish things that have been published in the Quibbler will be discovered to be true 5. The Centaurs will suffer a horrible defeat at the hands of the Death Eaters because of their failure to ally with the wizarding community because of their superior attitude. This will awaken many wizards to the inequity in their own beliefs And now, the ballet dancing troll lumbers back into the shadows Barnabas the Barmy From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 19 20:19:43 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:19:43 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129170 "a_svirn" wrote: > Because if she were consistent about it (and Hermione is nothing > if not consistent) she would have to forfeit her place in Hogwarts > altogether. Certainly she wasn't prepared for such a sacrifice. > > Pippin: > You're saying she should have sacrificed her place at Hogwarts as a > matter of principle? a_svirn: No, I am not. I only said that if she followed the course she started with her hunger strike she would have to leave Hogwarts for good. Because everything in the castle is done by elves. Fortunately, she discarded the idea. >>But how would that have helped the Elves? a_svirn: It wouldn't. But then, my point is that the whole thing is not really about elves. > > > And I certainly don't see that her campaign to help the Elves is a > plot to help her break into wizarding world politics. She could > hardly have picked a less popular cause -- not what I'd expect > from a budding demagogue. a_svirn: I didn't say she was demagogue in the making ? merely a politician. And I never said that she was plotting cunningly to worm her way into the wizarding politics. What I said was that when Hermione with her awesome determination and "blunt will" chose certain path one step quite logically followed another. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 19 20:30:06 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:30:06 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129171 Tonks wrote: > --- What I want to know is how can one > become a King without first being a prince? Why, that's simple enough: Macbeth wasn't a prince but after killing Duncan he became a king. a_svirn From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 19 20:41:02 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:41:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's child/ren? Evidently not a daughter...TBAY (from IM with Julie!) In-Reply-To: <78.735756c5.2fbd7f91@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129172 Kaylee Tonks-Lupin and Julie: > That screams 'but he has a son' at me...odd, but it rings true. > In that case, could his son be someone we know?" Kaylee asked. > > "It could be," Julie replies. "Who is the question." > "Or...quite possibly...Snape's son could be...wait for it...the > Half-Blood Prince!" Kaylee exclaimed triumphantly. "Especially if > he's dead already!" > Kaylee agreed wholeheartedly. "Do you think this theory is used > already, or could it use a ship of its own, maybe?" she pondered, > staring out over Theory Bay. "Not that I'm going to leave my > Captain," she added hastily. "I wouldn't mind captaining my own > ship *and* being a shipmate on DRIBBLE SHADOWS at the same time. > Maybe I'd better ask Captain Susan before going any farther," she > added. SSSusan peers down at Kaylee & Julie, lying in their sleeping bags on the beach. "What's this I hear? You're thinking of establishing your own ship in The Bay? But you're not sure about protocol?" "Exactly!" exclaim Kaylee & Julie. "Well, what the heck are you asking *me* for?" asks SSSusan. "I'm a newbie at this captain stuff, too! Tell you what, though. I don't see any reason why you two can't captain your own ship. The DRIBBLE SHADOWS is a mighty small dinghy, and I'm pretty sure Jen & Potioncat & I can handle the sailin' or the bailin' if you need to go man your own boat." "Really?" says Kaylee. "Sure," says SSSusan. "Now, if you're looking for a NAME for this ship, though, I'm not so sure about Dead!Snape'sSon!Half- BloodPrince. Nope, nope. Definitely a dearth of VOWELS in those capital letters. You might want to sit here and write out some possibilities in the sand. You know, for something which can be used as an acronym when you're done? And you might want to take a peek at Inish Alley and see what other kinds of acronyms have been used in the bay before now. Like FEATHERBOAS or MAGIC DISHWASHER or VASSAL. "Another thing to consider," SSSusan continues, warming to the topic, "is that there may already be something in the bay which talks about Snape's dead son -- in fact, I *know* for a fact ol' Kneasy long ago proposed that Snape's wife and son were killed by or at the request of Voldy. Not sure if he captained his own ship, mind you, but you might get some additional fodder for your theory by searching the archives. And o' course his wouldn't have had anything about the Half-Blood Prince in it...." "Wow," says Julie, "Looks like we have a little more work ahead of us. Thanks, Cap'n SSSusan." "You're quite welcome. Now, I must get back to my ship. She appears to be listing a little, and that Jen is nowhere to be seen! Happy acronyming!" And with that, Siriusly Snapey Susan dashes off to her boat. From chuyim at yahoo.com Thu May 19 20:34:05 2005 From: chuyim at yahoo.com (Tonia Chu) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:34:05 -0000 Subject: What magic would Harry use to kill anybody? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129173 This might have been discussed before but I couldn't find the thread. I was reading POA again and noticed in the scene after Sirius Black dragged Ron into the Womping Willow and to the Shrieking Shack, Harry had a chance to kill Sirius. "...Harry raised the wand. Now was the moment to do it. Now was the moment to avenge his mother and father. He was going to kill Black. He had to kill Black. This was his chance..." But exactly what Kind of magic Harry, a 3rd year student, would use to kill a full grown wizard? Sure the school hasn't been teaching kids spells to kill people, right? And sure Harry wouldn't think the wand is just like a knife that you can use it to stab somebody. Any thoughts? Thanks! - Tonia From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 19 20:45:54 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:45:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129174 > > >>Betsy: > > >But I think Hermione is trying, and I also think that empathy is the > thing that comes very hard to her.< > > >>a_svirn: > >Is it though? I seem to remember a number of occasions when she > experienced no difficulty empathizing.< > > > Betsy: > Not on the first level, no. Just as a refresher course, here is > Sophierom's three levels of empathy (see message 129070). > >1. I try to step into your shoes, as it were; I ask myself how I > would feel if I were in your position. > 2. I step back and try to understand how YOU actually feel in this > situation. > 3. Finally, I ask, WHY do you feel the way you do?< > > In the examples you listed, I think once Hermione figured out how > *she'd* feel in that situation, she had a pretty good grasp on how > the other person was feeling. a_svirn: Can't agree with you here. She certainly tries (and succeeds) to understand how do Hagrid and Remus actually feel. What does it mean for them to be a half-giant and a werewolf. This is step two: "I step back and try to understand how YOU actually feel in this situation". House-elves have such a different way > of looking at the world, they demand the second level if one has hope > of understanding them. Hermione, in my opinion, has yet to reach > that level. > > > >>a_svirn: > > >Because you see, SPEW is not about elves it is about Hermione's self- > justification. In itself her need to justify herself is not such a > bad thing. She was struck by realisation that she with her fine > principles had actually benefited from the slaves' labour... > > >She needed something, anything to reconcile her consciousness with > the continuing use of slaves. So she devised SPEW.< > > > Betsy: > This strikes me as too cynical. I think Hermione came to the > conclusion that her refusal to eat, or her leaving Hogwarts would > change nothing. (Which is correct. She's a no-name muggleborn; > who'd care if she starved or left?) Hermione wants to bring about > change. She thinks SPEW is the way to do it. Period. a_svirn: So you think that if a pureblood, say, Ginny started SPEW she would be more successful? Somehow I doubt it. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 19 21:00:17 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:00:17 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129175 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > > a_svirn: > > > > Yes, I know. But I'm afraid DD is either not completely truthful or > > not quite aware. Sirius might not really hate Kreacher (*hatred* is > > indeed a bit too strong a word, better be reserved to the likes of > > Snape), but he certainly dislikes him extremely. And the closer the > > end of OotP is the more it looks like a real revulsion. > It is certainly doesn't bespeak of indifference when a grown man > ? and one we've been told who is generally kind to elves? never > misses an opportunity to taunt and bully the poor broken creature > Kreacher. > > Pippin: > Dumbledore meant that Sirius was indifferent to Kreacher's feelings, > not his presence, IMO. The people Sirius hated-- Snape, Crouch, > Pettigrew and dear old Mum-- were out of reach , so he taunted and > bullied Kreacher, who had done nothing worse than be rude to > Sirius and his friends and fail to pay attention or complete his > assignments --hmmm, that sounds familiar, doesn't it? a_svirn: Indeed, it does! But I am not sure that you can really distinguish between "presence" and "feelings". Sirius may have many faults but he wouldn't vent his frustration on any elf available (even if they were obnoxious). Nor would he use any elf as a substitute for those of his foes who are out of reach. He clearly has his very own issues with Kreacher and their hostilities go back a good deal of years. Pippin: > > Hermione's mistake is thinking that the House Elves have to be weak > and innocent or they aren't deserving. But she should understand that > equal rights are not a form of charity. It's not easy to maintain that > Kreacher should have been given his freedom when he so obviously > intended to abuse it. But that is what equality demands. > > Dumbledore sees what Hermione doesn't, that true equality would mean > that House Elves have as much right to be black sheep as wizards do. > After all, Sirius was the most notorious Death Eater ever taken > alive, but he wasn't deprived of the right to own property. Marietta was > branded as a sneak and memory charmed when it was feared she > might give away secrets -- not imprisoned for life. Draco shows far > more sign of going to the Dark Side than Kreacher did, but we'd be > shocked if the good guys took away his wand and sentenced him to a > lifetime of menial labor on that account (although I can't help thinking > that it might be good for him) > a_svirn: here, here! From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu May 19 21:12:05 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:12:05 -0000 Subject: Pensieve scene and Slytherin nature (was:Re: "I thought he could overcome...) In-Reply-To: <428BDE2B.9040305@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129176 >>Kathy: >I find this whole scene in the book interesting.If Snape is a spy, why would Dumbledore want to give V a glimpse of Snape teaching Harry Occlumency???< Betsy: It's already been established that Snape is a superb practitioner of Occlumency. It's the only reason he's been able to remain a spy. If Voldemort learns that Snape is teaching Harry Occlumency, he won't be learning it from Snape. (Unless Snape is ESE, in which case, the Order is screwed anyway.) >>Kathy: >Dumbledore also does not listen when Snape tells him something (don't hire Lupin, you can't trust him).< Betsy: But this was a more passive suggestion. "I don't like Lupin. I think he's untrustworthy. *You* should not hire him." Compared to, "I dislike Harry. *I* will not teach him Occlumency." If Snape had refused to teach Harry, I don't think Dumbledore could have done much about it. (Of course I also think Snape is unlikely to refuse Dumbledore anything. He strikes me as *intensely* loyal.) >>Kathy: >Snape makes it plain that he can't stand Harry, so perhaps he set up the penseive in the hope that Harry would give him a reason to throw a conniption.< Betsy: I've heard this theory before, and I have a hard time buying it. For one, Snape had no way of knowing a missing student was going to suddenly turn up in a toilet in the middle of an Occlumency lesson. For another, he seemed genuinely furious. I don't think Snape is that good of an actor. He can play-up an emotion at times, but I think when he flies into a passion, he's *really* flying into a passion. Plus, he seemed to honestly expect Harry to run off and tell his friends. I can't think of any teacher who'd willing expose themselves to such ridicule, especially in front of a student who's already a problem for them. >>Kathy: >There doesn't seem to be rational explanation for him losing his cool in front of the Minister in POA. Maybe that was just temper. It doesn't seem very Slytherin of him though, does it.< Betsy: And this got me thinking: do *any* of the Slytherins act very Slytherin? First there's Snape: passionate, fiery, heart on his sleeve, Snape. Then there's Draco: constant sufferer of foot-in- mouth disease, never has a plan come together, *always* the loser, Draco. Crabbe and Goyle, who... yeah, no need to say much there. The Slytherin Quidditch team with the not-very-cunning strategy of might makes winners. And even Lucius, slippery, smooth Lucius nearly attacks Harry *while still in Hogwarts Castle (!!)* over a lost house-elf. Seriously, is there no one who displays an ounce of "pride means nothing" cunning? A smidgeon of "I will stab whoever it takes in the back to get ahead" ambition? Well, there's Peter Pettigrew (Gryffindor), and Percy Weasley (Gryffindor), and Barty Crouch Jr. (unknown - maybe Ravenclaw?), but the field of ruthlessly cunning and ambitious Slytherins seems curiously... empty. Voldemort stands alone? Betsy From mad_maxime at hotmail.com Thu May 19 21:46:57 2005 From: mad_maxime at hotmail.com (mad_maxime) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:46:57 -0000 Subject: why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldemort while he had the chance... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > Well that's the question now isn't it, why didn't Dumbledore kill > Voldemort when he had the chance? > > Laura B. Max responds: Dumbledore seems to have great trust in the prophecy. I think he believes Harry is the only one who can truly kill Voldemort once and for all. Max From buffyeton at yahoo.com Thu May 19 21:46:24 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:46:24 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" > wrote: > JKR has not put any signs of royalty in the WW (no reference to > > an actual noble class), so it would be awfully jarring if someone > > suddenly pulled a crown out of nowhere. Which is why I strongly > > suspect the half-blood prince will either be an actual half-blood > > (meaning human + non-human) and the title comes from the non- human > > side of the family, or he's from a foreign land. (If of course, > the > > half-blood prince is an individual at all.) > > > > Tonks: > I think that there are a lot of signs that there was royality in the > past history of Hogwarts and the WW. We don't see any currently. > There may be in other countries. What I want to know is how can one > become a King without first being a prince? And what do all of the > clues along the way mean? Clues like "Weasley is our King", and > Harry's dream (which I don't really remember), and the new one about > Neville being the one who almost was King. > > Maybe the Half-Blood prince is an evil person about Harry's age. > Maybe I have been watching too much of this TV Revelation movie! > But if Harry is going to be any kind of a King... OH I just have a > idea... Chess.. the Chess match again.. Harry is the King!! But > this still doesn't tell us about the Prince. ;-( > > Tonks_op Another sign that there has been royalty in the wizard world is that Voldemort goes by Lord, a purely muggle term unless there was royalty and/or aristocracy in the wizard world. Though it does make you wonder what happened to the wizard royalty. Did it die out because it could be only pure blood, or was it over thrown? Tamara From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu May 19 22:04:48 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:04:48 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129179 >> a_svirn: >Can't agree with you here. She certainly tries (and succeeds) to understand how do Hagrid and Remus actually feel. What does it mean for them to be a half-giant and a werewolf. This is step two: "I step back and try to understand how YOU actually feel in this situation".< Betsy: But don't you see that as a Muggleborn Hermione faces some of the exact same prejudices? And that Lupin and Hagrid are hurt by prejudice and react to that prejudice in the exact same way Hermione would? If Hermione were a werewolf or a half-giant she would probably keep that fact a secret and work to achieve whatever goals she set for herself, just as she helps Hagrid and Lupin to do. Hermione treats Hagrid and Lupin exactly how *she* would want to be treated if *she* was in that situation. So it's still step one: "I try to step into your shoes, as it were; I ask myself how *I* would feel if *I* were in your position." (IMO, of course. ) And while we're on empathy, I want to go back to where Susanne replied to my statement here: "I don't think Ron sees house-elves as people at all. I think he ranks them up there with garden gnomes - a bit more useful, but not capable of too much thought." >>Susanne (message #129144) >Hm, I'm not so sure of that assessment. >If you compare Ron's and Harry's reactions to Dobby at Christmas time in GoF and his actions in OotP, when Hermione tries to trick them, I don't see Ron treating them as not capable of too much thought.< Betsy: I'm not sure that Ron even gets onto the empathy steps at all, when it comes to house-elves (or most others, for that matter). Not because he's cruel or psychotic or anything, but because he's a somewhat typical self-absorbed teenager. If brought face to face with an issue, Ron will stretch his empathy muscles a bit to try and figure out what's bothering someone. But generally, I think he doesn't bother. House-elves seem happy, so they must be happy. Kreacher seems crazy, so he's crazy. Hermione's acting mental, well, she's a bit mental. But when Ron *does* try to empathize, I think he does a pretty good job (the hidden hats thing in OotP), and may be more natural at it than Hermione. >>Betsy: >This strikes me as too cynical. I think Hermione came to the conclusion that her refusal to eat, or her leaving Hogwarts would change nothing. (Which is correct. She's a no-name muggleborn; who'd care if she starved or left?)< >>a_svirn: >So you think that if a pureblood, say, Ginny started SPEW she would be more successful? Somehow I doubt it.< Betsy: Not with SPEW, necessarily, but with a hunger strike? Yeah, I think Ginny would be more successful. Think about it, the daughter of a Ministry Official starving herself over the plight of the house- elves? I smell a front page. And if it were someone like Draco, with roots in two very powerful pureblood families and with such a well-known father, who started a hunger strike? The news would fly all over the WW. >>Pippin (message #129148) >I do agree that Hermione is condescending. Her need to see the Elves as innocent and helpless is demeaning to them. In her anxiety to prove them worthy of better choices, she's invalidating the choices they have.< Betsy: Aha! A light has been switched on! Yes, in this manner, Hermione is *very* condesending. All house-elves must be innocent by virtue of their victimization. The funny thing is, Hermione's view of house- elves parallels exactly the WW view: powerless, useful, not too bright creatures that need instruction. Harry, by seeing the power a house-elf actually has, is one of the few people in the books to actually see house-elves as they actually are. And really, house-elves are *quite* powerful. We've seen two disgruntled house-elves, and both of them are able to completely screw over their "masters". And even Winky appeared to have a lot more say in the Crouch household than most credit. Barty Jr. went to the Quidditch final because Winky wanted him to. I think it's also telling that we've seen three households lose their house-elves (or lose control of them anyway) and two of the wizards are dead and the other is in Azkaban. Maybe it's a coincidence or maybe house- elves aren't to be trifled with. Betsy From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 19 22:10:47 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 22:10:47 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129180 > Inkling: >: > > One more thought concerning Macbeth. The witches, at the urging of > Hecate, "close contriver of all harms," deliberately use their > prophecies to set up Macbeth for a fall. In the case of Sybill > Trelawny there doesn't seem to be any bad intent behind the > prophecy. However, in both of her authentic prophecies, Sybill > refers to Voldy as the Dark Lord. As Harry observed to Snape, "I've > only ever heard Death Eaters call him that." I wonder if there is a > clue in that choice of words as to the source of the prophecy? Just > speculating. > a_svirn No, I don't think Trelawney has anything to do with DE. She is always in the state of trance when she's making her prophesies. One can't really choose one's words when in trance. I think, "Dark Lord" in this instant is Voldy's professional occupation so to speak. Besides, if she is a covert DE why would she try to set LV for a fall? But this raises interesting topic, if not Trelawney, then who? I think that's DD who ? after LV finally made his choice and marked Harry ?uses the prophecy to manipulate him in the "right" direction. Then the whole plotline of OotP is a deliberate set-up for LV. Because there was no real need to waste so much energy and human resources in order to guard the Prophesy. For one thing if DD really wanted it safe he could simply refrain from recording it in the first place. Or he could arrange it to be smashed as soon as LV had risen again. If it comes to that he could let LV have at it ? what difference would it make? Harry is already marked and either way LV is bent on killing him. I think DD wanted LV to come into the open and tried to lure him to the Ministry. Granted, this way Hurry was placed at risk, but DD probably felt that although Harry's mind vulnerable to LV he is still well protected and anyway Occlumency should do the trick. Calculated risk as it were. And now that the record of the Prophesy was destroyed, just imagine how many possibilities DD have in "drawing on to LV's confusion"?! a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 19 23:00:34 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 23:00:34 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129181 > Betsy: > But don't you see that as a Muggleborn Hermione faces some of the > exact same prejudices? And that Lupin and Hagrid are hurt by > prejudice and react to that prejudice in the exact same way Hermione > would? a_svirn: Nope, I don't see that. Hermione is universally admired. All of the Hogwarts faculty (except for Snape) are constantly singing her praises. She is highly respected by her fellow students (except for Draco-Goyle-Crabbe-Pansy quartet, but who would want their respect, anyway?) Granted she is not well-liked, but that has nothing to do with her being Muggle-born. She would have the same kind of problems in a Muggle school. Now, as for werewolves and half-giants they do not suffer merely from "prejudices". Werewolves are legally prosecuted, and if half- giants are not, it's in all probability because there has been no precedent so far. For all we know Hagrid may be the only half-giant in the whole Great Britain. That's why people have had trouble recognising him as such. Giants, however, has not only been prosecuted, but actually exterminated. Hermione's upward mobility may or may not be hampered a bit because of her being Muggle-born, but there is a world of a difference between this level of problems and basic survival. If Hermione were a werewolf or a half-giant she would > probably keep that fact a secret and work to achieve whatever goals > she set for herself, just as she helps Hagrid and Lupin to do. > Hermione treats Hagrid and Lupin exactly how *she* would want to be > treated if *she* was in that situation. So it's still step one: "I > try to step into your shoes, as it were; I ask myself how *I* would > feel if *I* were in your position." (IMO, of course. ) > a_svirn: Well first she asked herself "how I would feel in Hagrid shoes?" And answered "Hmm! wouldn't want to be in his shoes at all" ? that's step 1. Then she asked herself "what is Hagrid thinking about his situation?" And answered: "Well obviously it causes him a great deal of anxiety: he's partly ashamed about his origins, partly afraid of being found out" ? that's step 2. From anurim at yahoo.com Thu May 19 23:38:22 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship Message-ID: <20050519233822.92029.qmail@web32605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129182 I thought a while ago that one source of inspiration, probably secondary, for the plot of each book might be the illustration of one deadly sin versus one cardinal virtue. It is only now that I'll take the time to elaborate on the idea. I know there are some very interesting essays in the Files section relative to this subject, but they seem to me more general rather than about the HP world specifically. I haven't seen a similar theory yet, but I don't doubt that somebody has thought of it before, which is why I'll call it, for the time being, ANachronical Theory about Ineffable VIRtues and Ugly Sins (ANTIVIRUS). It is pretty clear that the central theme of PS is Avarice vs. Generosity: Dudley's ravenous appetite for more, more, more presents versus Harry's modesty and will to share his possessions with others (for instance when he buys sweets for Ron too on Hogwarts Express), everything Slytherin versus what you want Gryffindor, but more importantly, Voldemort's incapacity of finding the stone because he wanted it for himself, unlike Harry who sought it to protect the WW. Even the Mirror of Desire, the item with the most symbolic potential of this book, lures those who see it into escaping in a world of most precious gifts and forgetting to share themselves with the rest of the world. CoS seems to be pretty clearly about Lust vs Chastity: Ginny fell under the dangerous spell of the diary because it fed her infatuation with Harry, most of the victims of the Basilisc have been somehow guilty of this sin: Colin who 'lusts' for Harry's friendship, Nearly Headless Nick who lusts for life, Mrs Norris of dubious relationship with the sadistic Filth (joking here, but you get the idea), Penelope who was secretly dating Percy, Hermione with her groupie tendencies for Lockhart. Lockhart himself, who induces the sin of lust and lusts himself for fame is exemplarily punished. Moreover, the Basilisc whispers all around the piping system his lust for killing, Riddle confesses his lust for power and fails to understand how the chaste love of a mother, chaste bravery symbolised by Gryffindor's sword and pure loyalty can defeat him. We can also count in Dobby's lust for freedom and control, though this might be stretching the concept a little. There are other examples, but this is already enough, I think. I am having trouble with the PoA. We see instances of Sloth (for instance Harry and Ron's failure to help Hagrid) vs Hermione's Zeal, we can argue that victims of Dementors can either lazily lament their fate or zealously seeking to fight it, we see Peter's complacency versus Sirius' stubbornness, but I am not entirely sure about the best interpretation, because there might also be there a few possible examples of Gluttony or Pride. I would welcome any help on this one. Small details like the totally unprofessional but miraculously effective Knight Bus might support the Sloth vs Zeal theme, but it is not the only possible interpretation. GoF is almost certainly about Envy vs. Charity. We see Ron betraying his friendship with Harry because he envies him, we see the same Ron jealous about Krum, we see Fleur being quite individualistic and finishing as the last champion, we see Rita with her poison-green words and insinuations. Most importantly, Harry and Cedric win the cup because they help each other, and Harry manages to escape Voldemort mostly through the charity of Voldemort's last victims, but he pays his debt by bringing Cedric's body back in spite of risks. DEs envy each other and try to sink all the other supporters of Voldemort so that they'll gain the most power and gratitude. OotP doesn't seem to raise any problems of interpretation: Harry is red-furious at Dumbledore for avoiding him, at his friends because they don't keep him posted, and at himself for putting Sirius in danger. Sirius is furious that he is not allowed to work actively for the order, Kreacher is furious that his mistress' house is devastated, Snape stops Occlumency lesson out of the wrath for Harry witnessing his most humiliating memory, the whole school and all readers are furious at Umbridge for her unfairness, Centaurs are furious at Hagrid for invading 'their' forest and at Firenze for 'slaving' the humans, Malfoy ends up as furious with Harry for putting Lucius in prison, Cho is furious with the world for giving her hormones, Hermione is furious at fhe elves being used as slaves, and elves are in turn furious at her for trying to trick them into freedom, Molly is furious because her children want to put themselves in danger and at Percy for insulting his family, McGo is furious of Dolores' presumptuousness, Voldemort is furious for not knowing the full contents of the prophecy, in fact it is quite a relief that Luna's meekness was allowed in, together with Ginny's optimism, Dumbledore's tactfulness and, compensating for every possible wrath, the twins' magistral exit. What now? If we agree to assign Sloth vs Zeal to PoA then we are left with Pride vs Humility and Gluttony vs Moderation. It is my belief that the two will be played hard in the following books, with bad guys paying for their greed, perhaps the Dursleys starting to see the light and allow for others' needs as well, and most importantly, Harry's modesty in front of fate, death included, prevailing over Voldemort's wish to live forever and rule the world. Percy's gluttony for power might also feature. Pride vs Humility is so important that I think it will be saved for the last book. Centaurs will have to lower their pride and collaborate with wizards. Wizards will have to stop believing themselve superior to muggles. Neville, as the humble one, might give even Harry certain lessons about the dangers of pride, not to mention that Harry himself will understand why James and Sirius' arrogance was not all that worthy of praise and discover in him the gentle strength of his mother. I am sorry if this sounds boring or if it was discussed before, and I look forward to reading your replies, should you find that it is worth commenting on this idea. Mira From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 00:06:23 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:06:23 -0000 Subject: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! ( LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129183 >>Elkins: (brought to us by Alla) > >Snape betraying Dumbledore wouldn't be a shocker. McGonagall, though? Now, wouldn't that be something. Not Dumbledore's left- hand, but his right-hand. Not the head of House Slytherin, but the head of House Gryffindor. Not the Designated Red Herring, but instead the very first member of the wizarding world that the reader ever *met?* >Now *that* would be a shocker. *That* would be betrayal.< Betsy: Honestly? I love it! Not just because it would once and for all smack down the "Slytherins are evil" prejudice that prevades Harry's Hogwarts interactions, but because the twist is so devilishly unexpected, and yet, so supported by canon! McGonagall could *so* be the series' Quirrel. (With Snape, returning in his critically acclaimed role of, The Red Herring.) I went back and read through the threads attached to Elkin's original post, and they covered everything through GoF. So what about OotP? Heidi R raises a good question here: >>Heidi R: >My only question would be "Why did she help Hagrid then, go out and defend him in OotP when he was being removed during Harry's Astronomy exam?"< Betsy: But then she answers her question here: >Of course, my second "note to self" is that Minerva was conveniently absent (due to her injuries) at the final showdown at the Ministry. Did she purposefully go forward to be injured so her cover would not be blown?< Betsy: I can see two senarios: a)McGonagall knows what Voldemort is cooking up in poor confused Harry's head, and she knows the time table. She sees a chance to remove herself from the scene, should Harry go looking for her for assistance, and she takes it. (Plus, Hagrid's been McGonagall's best informant. He's horrible at keeping secrets, and McGonagall is first on the scene at Privit Drive because of Hagrid. She may have been trying to protect an asset.) Or b)JKR knows that Harry cannot go to McGonagall for assistance, because that would force McGonagall to be suspiciously unhelpful. (Able to slide that past in PS/SS when the WW thought Voldemort gone, but extremely fishy here, especially as McGonogall is an Order member.) So JKR stages something to take McGonogall convienently off premises. Also in OotP, McGonogall is *extremely* unhelpful with Harry and Umbridge. She does very little to calm Harry down so he'll stop antagonizing Umbridge and stop putting himself under so much stress. "For heaven's sake, Potter!" said Professor McGonagall, straightening her glasses angrily (she had winced horribly when he had used Voldemort's name). "Do you really think this is about truth or lies? It's about keeping your head down and your temper under control!" (OotP scholastic ed p.249) Isn't it strange that McGonagall tries to get Harry to control his temper by losing hers? One would think she's unused to dealing with temperamental teenagers. Plus, she sends Harry out of her office while he's still pretty upset and with very little practical advice. Actually, she sort of insults Harry as he's leaving. "Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, then sniffed, walked around her desk, and held open the door for him. "Well, I'm glad you listen to Hermione Granger at any rate," she said, pointing him out of her office." (ibid) Again, not very helpful behavior here. In fact she speaks "angrily" and sniffs at Harry. McGonagall is acting almost antagonistically towards Harry. None of this is over the top shocking, but it's hardly the way to calm down a riled up child, and it's strangely inept for a Head of House. Exactly the sort of stuff that when the big reveal is finished you can look back on and say, "Oh yes, so that explains..." Also, McGonagall does nothing to assist with the DA club, IIRC. She's a member of the Order, so I'm sure she heard Fletcher's report. And yet, no little tips dropped to Hermione to help the students with their subversion, not even a subtle hint of praise. Why? Unless Harry not learning how to defend himself is something that works for her. (Yes, Snape does nothing to help either, but since the DA was a "no Slytherins allowed" club - I don't really blame him.) And if we go with Percy being a turncoat (something I'm not fully onboard with, but for the sake of argument... ) than that's *two* Gryffindors that have switched loyalties who've been under McGonagall's tender care. Not the best of track records. One wonders if McGonagall's doing some subversive work of her own. ESE!McGonagall? I can *so* see it. Betsy From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Fri May 20 00:09:48 2005 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:09:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldemort while he had the chance... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1691315959.20050519170948@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129184 Thursday, May 19, 2005, 12:45:06 PM, greatelderone wrote: g> GEO: Would any attempt at killing Voldemort have succeeded g> considering g> that he was able to survive as a spirit after his killing curse g> rebounded the first time he lost his body? No doubt DD knows this and g> probably doesn't kill him because he seeks a permanent solution to g> Voldemort. That was what I assumed too -- I thought that if Dumbledore had tried, he would have killed Harry, but LVm would have survived. -- Dave From anurim at yahoo.com Thu May 19 23:57:01 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 16:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! ( LONG) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050519235701.71650.qmail@web32613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129185 Yes, I do love to travel. And no, it is not why I'm jumping into every available ship. It's just that I find ELKIN (if it is obvious where the acronym comes from then I am completely oblivious to obvious reasons). I don't believe it is true, but it makes the most sense as a plot twist, and the arguments supporting it. are quite convincing. > Heidi R: > > This is an excellent look at everything...I really > like this twist > (though I want to believe that Minerva is true and > it's all just > coincidental). My only question would be "Why did > she help Hagrid > then, go out and defend him in OotP when he was > being removed during > Harry's Astronomy exam?" She does hate Umbridge, that's for sure. If this theory is true, perhaps our least favorite Dolores was actually right when she said Minerva is quite fond of power? > Of course, my second "note to self" is that Minerva > was conveniently > absent (due to her injuries) at the final showdown > at the Ministry. > Did she purposefully go forward to be injured so her > cover would not > be blown? Yes, this makes sense too. One more point that might be relevant to ELKIN is Hagrid's remark in the first book. I quote from memory: That's why (Dumbledore - my note) didn't even try to take over Hogwarts. At least not then. So, did Voldemort try it at another time? This might tie well with McGo declaration that she started at Hogwarts 39 years (or similar) this December (or similar). Therefore she started during the academic year, which is not the most common circumstance. It has been speculated on HPANA that Voldemort had killed Dippet during the year, therefore Dumbledore was forced to take over, leaving the Transfiguration chair free for Minerva. This might round up the information we have on her - quite a lot and quite dispersed actually not to be important. I also think that there was an item, perhaps a cup, in the trophy room with the McGo name on it. Minerva is also close in age with Voldemort, they were possibly together at school (and with Hagrid too, which might be an extra reason why she jumped to help him). Perhaps Minerva is not evil as such, but could it be that she has her own agenda against (or even for) Voldemort? Was she in love with him? Unlikely, although as a teenager he was attractive. We know how much Minerva enjoys Quiddich and how ambitious she is for her house to win the Cup, was there between her and Tom a sporting rivalry of any kind? Is Voldemort even good at flying, or was he ever good at it? Was the McGo-Riddle relationship a Harry-Ginny, Harry-Cho, Harry-Hermione, or Draco-Hermione relationship? Pondering (but not quite), Mira __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From kavallas at yahoo.com Fri May 20 00:21:20 2005 From: kavallas at yahoo.com (kavallas) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:21:20 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129186 In an earlier post, Sophie suggested that Dumbledore's advice at the end of OoTP was meant more practically (being more respectful of Kreacher=paying more attention to Kreacher=not telling Kreacher to "get out"=Kreacher never being able to tell Narcissa of Harry's affection towards Sirius). However, I can't help but feel that that wasn't the tone of Dumbledore's entire speech; he advised kindness, not shrewdness. Although there is the whole idea that kindness will pay ou in the long run, I feel that Dumbledore was trying to counsel kindness for the sake of kindness, not for any long-term reasons. Dumbledore's advice, then, held no real value for that time in Harry's life. Let us look at the situation: Harry has just lost a loved one (again?!). He was stunned, angry, and upset. He looked to Dumbledore for comfort and guidance--and was given half a chapter of advice on how his life (and his recently deceased father figure's life) could have been improved by being nice. Did Dumbledore really expect Harry to thoughtfully absorb this advice, nod in introspection, and go on as a better person? I think that this situation (along with many others--see the end chapters of virtually every other HP book) expresses Dumbledore's pure conceit. The utter temerity to advise a bereft and grieving boy of how to be kinder is impossible to grasp. Dumbledore might be wise, might be thoughtful, might be powerful, but he is far from modest. And in that, I think, there is a greater degree of hypocrisy than Hermione could ever express. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri May 20 00:44:43 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 00:44:43 -0000 Subject: What magic would Harry use to kill anybody? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonia Chu" wrote: > This might have been discussed before but I couldn't find the thread. > > > I was reading POA again and noticed in the scene after Sirius Black > dragged Ron into the Womping Willow and to the Shrieking Shack, Harry > had a chance to kill Sirius. > > "...Harry raised the wand. Now was the moment to do it. Now was the > moment to avenge his mother and father. He was going to kill Black. > He had to kill Black. This was his chance..." > > But exactly what Kind of magic Harry, a 3rd year student, would use > to kill a full grown wizard? Sure the school hasn't been teaching > kids spells to kill people, right? And sure Harry wouldn't think the > wand is just like a knife that you can use it to stab somebody. A quick "Reducto!" to the chest or head would probably do it, as would repeatedly Levitating and dropping Sirius. Amiable Dorsai From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri May 20 01:28:24 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 01:28:24 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: <20050519233822.92029.qmail@web32605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mira wrote: > I thought a while ago that one source of inspiration, > probably secondary, for the plot of each book might be > the illustration of one deadly sin versus one cardinal > virtue. It is only now that I'll take the time to > elaborate on the idea. I know there are some very > interesting essays in the Files section relative to > this subject, but they seem to me more general rather > than about the HP world specifically. I haven't seen a > similar theory yet, but I don't doubt that somebody > has thought of it before, which is why I'll call it, > for the time being, ANachronical Theory about > Ineffable VIRtues and Ugly Sins (ANTIVIRUS). > I've actually thought a bit about something similar before: I feel the DADA teachers are meant as examples of the deadly sins in question... > > I am having trouble with the PoA. We see instances of > Sloth (for instance Harry and Ron's failure to help > Hagrid) vs Hermione's Zeal, we can argue that victims > of Dementors can either lazily lament their fate or > zealously seeking to fight it, we see Peter's > complacency versus Sirius' stubbornness, but I am not > entirely sure about the best interpretation, because > there might also be there a few possible examples of > Gluttony or Pride. I would welcome any help on this > one. Small details like the totally unprofessional but > miraculously effective Knight Bus might support the > Sloth vs Zeal theme, but it is not the only possible > interpretation. > What you are missing here, is probably partially because it's subtle (and spread over to OoP a bit), and because most of us like the character in question. Lupins deadly sin, and the one that undermines him in the end of the book, is sloth. The first time we see him, he is sleeping on the train, arguably sleeping on the job. He hasn't really spent any time on his appearance (surely he could have bought a new set of robes for the first day, or at least a less used set!), and doesn't appear to be taking care of himself. We also find out that he is a friend of Harry's dad, who has never bothered to let him know he exists, visit, send presents, check on his wellbeing, etc, for the last 13 years, even after Harry found out about the wizarding world. He then goes through the whole year sitting back and not doing anything, sitting on the information that a dangerous mass murderer on the loose is an animagus, much as he sat back and did nothing during his time in school while James & Sirus harassed Snape, and Sirus crossed the line to attempted murder. At the end of the term, he resigns because he *forgot* to take the medication that stops him from turning into a rampaging wolf with a taste for human flesh. Admittedly, some of this can be attributed to circumstances surrounding him, but he has shown a pattern of being a good man who does nothing. Not that I dislike him: I'd see a lot of the sloth on his part as stemming from severe depression. Remus does, however, stand out as the main example of sloth in the books, IMHO... --Arcum From tinglinger at yahoo.com Fri May 20 01:32:37 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 01:32:37 -0000 Subject: How Will the summer of HPatHBP begin ? Call for theories ..... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129189 I challenge anyone who follows the posts here to summarize a better grab your page!turner opening..... this challenge is limited to the start of the summer after OOP ends and before Harry returns to Hogwarts, if he does... Flashbacks don't count, even if jkr uses one for Chapter One sharpen your quills ------------------------------------------------------------ 1. Luna was clearly NOT on the Hogwarts Express with the other students. She had still not found her stuff and was granted a few extra days to stay at Hogwarts until she found them. (There are precedents for this permission.) Everyone else who Harry met on the trip to Hogwarts at the start of year five was on the return train - except Luna. Ginny was reading the quibbler and turning it upside down - just like Luna would have, so her absence is not accidental. 2. Mr. Lovegood is scheduled to pick up Luna from Hogwarts after he finishes publishing the last edition of the quibbler before he and Luna go on vacation to Sweden. 3. Goyle was NOT in the group of death eaters who invaded the Ministry of Magic. Everyone who was there was mentioned by Lucius Malfoy as they organized their hunt for the members of the Sirius Rescue Mission. 4. Goyle's son is ridiculed in several places as being funtionally illiterate. In particular, Luna howls at Ron's imitation of Goyle writing lines, something her father is good at, though his writing makes sense. An interesting subconscious link between Goyle and Lovegood... 5. Voldemort finds out about the potter interview published in the Daily Prophet and finds out that it was originally published in the Quibbler. He wants revenge on all involved. What better irony than to have his most illiterate and brutish DE go to the Quibbler,trash the place, burn it down, and kill Mr. Lovegood. 6. Mr. Lovegood, in his last dying effort, uses several of the dictating quills to write letters of warning to the wizarding community and a farewell letter to Luna 7. The quills deliver their parchments to the owls waiting in the makeshift owlery to deliver the papers and they zoom off into the night. 8. The evil deed done, Goyle rolls up his sleeve...... 9. Luna is still at Hogwarts looking for her things when an owl arrives to give her the message from her dad 10 She leaves Hogwarts and sets out for the offices of the Quibbler via thestral power, having already proven that she is an expert rider 11 As she and her thestral approach Quibbler headquarters, she sees the Dark Mark in the sky over the building and remembers the one her dad and her saw at the World Cup. Luna knows her dad is most likely dead and she cannot help him. 12 Where can she go? No other relatives, no real friends (Ginny is not a real friend - she laughs at her), and then she remembers.......... 13 the one who offered to help her not once but twice before, and thestrals are good at finding people and places 14 Harry awakes on privet drive to the sound of garbage cans being tipped over and looks out his window ........ now it gets interesting!!! tinglinger who loves to look behind the wizards veil for new plots and character studies and post them at potterplots http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From tinglinger at yahoo.com Fri May 20 01:57:23 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 01:57:23 -0000 Subject: Summer of HPatHBP - call for theories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129190 To continue how the summer might begin, and to flesh out the events of the previous post a little more .... 5. Voldemort finds out about the potter interview published in the Quibbler and wants revenge. What better irony than to have his most illiterate and brutish DE go to the quibbler, trash the place, burn it down, and kill Mr. Lovegood. ----------------------------------------------------------- Meanwhile....... When Voldemort got ahold of the Quibbler, he also saw who GAVE the interview [1] - good old Rita Skeeter. We know from GOF that Rita may have some sources within the Death Eaters and the Ministry (her information about Ludo Bagman and Fudge). So, while Goyle is busy dispatching the Quibbler and Mr. Lovegood, 6. Voldemort and Bellatrix pay a little visit to Rita and get her attention with the cruciatus curse. When Rita is resistant, Bellatrix reaches into her cloak, pulls out an aerosol can of RAID, and brandishes it before the now terrified unregistered animagus who promptly admits that Hermione Granger forced her to interview Harry by threatening to tell the MoM she is an unregistered animagus Voldemort now knows that it was Hermione who was mainly responsible for ruining the secrecy of his return. 7. Somehow Rita has too many connections and is too much of a survivor to be done away with this easily. I don't have any theories just yet as to her fate, so to continue... 8. Voldemort and Bellatrix (or choose other death eaters if you like) set out to find Hermione Granger, who is with her parents at the start of the summer. 9. Somehow the Grangers will be warned (I will be looking for a clue on this in my rereads..) and will escape to a hiding place under the care and protection of ..... 10. Arthur Weasley, author of the Muggle Protection Act, who has interacted with the Grangers on several occasions, including the famous Gilderoy Lockhart book signing and at the end of OOP. Can you think of a better set of muggles for him to protect? 10a. I get the distinct feeling that Arthur will end up as the Secret Keeper for Hermione's parents before Book 6 is too far along. 11. For all of you RH shippers out there, this scenario makes the most sense as to how a relationship can develop. R and H need to be away from outside influences (and Harry) for things to happen. Hermione sees the good qualities of both Ron and his family up close and personal, away from Harry, who is off with Luna somewhere...... 12. As to who survives and who doesn't, that is for another post.... but I do not see JKR killing off Hermione, so either her parents are toast, or Mr. Weasley, the great Muggle Protector, dies trying to protect them. There are at least two instances of Hermione "separating herself from her parents" in OOP; I wonder if this is a very subtle foreshadowing? I just CAN'T SEE JKR killing off Hermione, but this scenario makes such an event possible.... In any event, her parents and/or Mr. Weasley are definitely at risk --------------------------- [1] "I don't think Daddy exactly pays people to write for the magazine." said Luna dreamily. "They do it because it's an honor, and of course, to see their mames in print." tinglinger who loves concocting these scenarios, more of which you will find at potterplots http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 02:01:04 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 02:01:04 -0000 Subject: What magic would Harry use to kill anybody? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonia Chu" wrote: > This might have been discussed before but I couldn't find the thread. > > > I was reading POA again and noticed in the scene after Sirius Black > dragged Ron into the Womping Willow and to the Shrieking Shack, Harry > had a chance to kill Sirius. > > "...Harry raised the wand. Now was the moment to do it. Now was the > moment to avenge his mother and father. He was going to kill Black. > He had to kill Black. This was his chance..." > > But exactly what Kind of magic Harry, a 3rd year student, would use > to kill a full grown wizard? Sure the school hasn't been teaching > kids spells to kill people, right? And sure Harry wouldn't think the > wand is just like a knife that you can use it to stab somebody. > > Any thoughts? Thanks! > > Angie responds: Odd, but I wondered the same thing myself today. Harry didn't know about the AK curse yet, but even if he did know about it at that point, he wouldn't have been able to perform the curse. According to FakeMoody in GOF, even if the entire class of fourth year students tried the AK curse on him, he doubted that he'd get a nosebleed. This certainly supports that Harry, alone, wouldn't have been able to do the AK the year before. If there is another killing curse, I'm unaware of it. But more importantly, it seems that Harry was unaware of it. However, I think it's important to remember Harry's state of mind at that point. Perhaps he hadn't considered that he really didn't know how to kill Sirius; he only knew that he wanted to and that he had the opportunity. Perhaps he just didn't get far enough along in his (tortured) though process to realize, "Duh -- I don't know how to kill him!" before Lupin arrived. Going way out on a limb, maybe Harry thought that he could shoot fire or an electrical type current from his wand into Sirius's heart? Really far out there: could he have "transfigured" his wand into a weapon such as a knife? Or, once a wand, always a wand??? From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Fri May 20 02:18:58 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 02:18:58 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129192 > a_svirn > > Then the whole plotline of OotP is a deliberate set-up for LV. > Because there was no real need to waste so much energy and human > resources in order to guard the Prophesy. For one thing if DD really > wanted it safe he could simply refrain from recording it in the > first place. Or he could arrange it to be smashed as soon as LV had > risen again. If it comes to that he could let LV have at it ? what > difference would it make? Harry is already marked and either way LV > is bent on killing him. I think DD wanted LV to come into the open > and tried to lure him to the Ministry. Granted, this way Hurry was > placed at risk, but DD probably felt that although Harry's mind > vulnerable to LV he is still well protected and anyway Occlumency > should do the trick. Calculated risk as it were. > > And now that the record of the Prophesy was destroyed, just imagine > how many possibilities DD have in "drawing on to LV's confusion"?! > Chys: If DD were to have had is smashed before, LV might have done something drastic, thinking there was something in it that he Definitly missed and would want to move fast to rectify this. I don't think that DD could stop the hall of phrophecy records from being made and maintained. That's ministry business and not his thing, since it's not his property- it's Harry and LV's. He should have just told Harry that there was something therein the DOM, which he had a copy of there at Hogwarts, that LV wanted to get his hands on, and that LV would do anything to get Harry to go there to get it for him, since only Harry could touch his copy of it. Could have told him he would give him DD's copy of it the day he joined the Order, and the whole MOM DOM fiasco with Sirius dying wouldn't have happened. Harry would have been confused, but he'd have been assured of getting it eventually. I think. Chys From jmrazo at hotmail.com Fri May 20 02:26:51 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 02:26:51 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129193 > Betsy: > Aha! A light has been switched on! Yes, in this manner, Hermione is > *very* condesending. All house-elves must be innocent by virtue of > their victimization. The funny thing is, Hermione's view of house- > elves parallels exactly the WW view: powerless, useful, not too > bright creatures that need instruction. Harry, by seeing the power > a house-elf actually has, is one of the few people in the books to > actually see house-elves as they actually are. I'm confused. I thought you were arguing that Hermione wasn't a hypocrite? Seems to me that by saying her view and the wizarding world view of House elves aren't all that far apart *is* saying she has hypocritical views on house elves. after all, isn't she supposed to have the moral high ground? How is involuntary freedom that they aren't prepared for going to do them any good? how is tricking them with something they don't want any good? How is infantalizing them to a point that is almost a caricature of a real pov doing them any good? She never acknowledges that he has every power to choose evil just as Dobby does good. she merely brushes everything he says off as the rantings of someone who doesn't know any better--and could be fixed if he would just allow it. It's insulting to him to believe he doesn't have that power if he is as free willed as she thinks he is. Hermione strikes me as one of those people who dresses up like a clubbed baby seal to protest the WTO and capitalism and yet has no idea about what system should replace it once it is torn down. she is a hypocrite--but she'll grow out of it. phoenixgod2000 From anurim at yahoo.com Fri May 20 00:50:13 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 17:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050520005013.54735.qmail@web32614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129194 Just to add that McGo is the only character with a Scottish name in the books... just because a certain Scottish character has been discussed quite a lot recently. And to apologise for thinking Elkin was the name of a theory, and not, as Penapart Elf nicely pointed out, a member of the list *collapsing in laughter at her own stupidity* Mira aka ALuna __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Fri May 20 02:30:31 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 02:30:31 -0000 Subject: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! In-Reply-To: <20050519235701.71650.qmail@web32613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129195 > > Heidi R: > > Minerva is also close in age with > Voldemort, they were possibly together at school (and > with Hagrid too, which might be an extra reason why > she jumped to help him). Perhaps Minerva is not evil > as such, but could it be that she has her own agenda > against (or even for) Voldemort? Was she in love with > him? Unlikely, although as a teenager he was > attractive. We know how much Minerva enjoys Quiddich > and how ambitious she is for her house to win the Cup, > was there between her and Tom a sporting rivalry of > any kind? Is Voldemort even good at flying, or was he > ever good at it? Was the McGo-Riddle relationship a > Harry-Ginny, Harry-Cho, Harry-Hermione, or > Draco-Hermione relationship? > Chys: Why in the trophy room in JKR's site, is Tom Riddle's name on a trophy/award? *has wondered about that for a while.* Also another note I posted earler, that Yahoo swallowed I think: MG Said that she shouldn't have been so cross with Peter in book 3, if she had only known. (During a hogsmead visit. They were talking of GH and Sirius/Peter incident.) I wonder if that means that at the time she didn't know he was a DE? Just beacause you are a follower of LV doesn't mean you know all the others who follow him as well. Makes me think that she was just nervous in book 4 when crouch was under veritaserum, and didn't know how much he knew of her. Chys From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 03:21:41 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 03:21:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy Was: Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129196 Kavallas wrote: In an earlier post, Sophie suggested that Dumbledore's advice at the end of OoTP was meant more practically . However, I can't help but feel that that wasn't the tone of Dumbledore's entire speech; he advised kindness, not shrewdness. Although there is the whole idea that kindness will pay ou in the long run, I feel that Dumbledore was trying to counsel kindness for the sake of kindness, not for any long-term reasons. Dumbledore's advice, then, held no real value for that time in Harry's life. Let us look at the situation: Harry has just lost a loved one (again?!). He was stunned, angry, and upset. He looked to Dumbledore for comfort and guidance--and was given half a chapter of advice on how his life (and his recently deceased father figure's life) could have been improved by being nice. I think that this situation (along with many others--see the end chapters of virtually every other HP book) expresses Dumbledore's pure conceit. The utter temerity to advise a bereft and grieving boy of how to be kinder is impossible to grasp. Dumbledore might be wise, might be thoughtful, might be powerful, but he is far from modest. And in that, I think, there is a greater degree of hypocrisy than Hermione could ever express. Alla: Erm. I am not so sure at all. It is no secret, that just as you say, I also consider Dumbledore's advice especially about Kreacher to be given at very, very, very wrong time and place. I do go back and forth on whether he helped Harry or not when he allowed him to crash his office ( it is a possibility that it helped Harry) but there is nothing, absolutely nothing ( in my opinion only of course) which can justify him saying to Harry how wrong Sirius was when not even couple hours passed after man died. If someone said something like that to me the moment after I lost the loved one, I am telling you this person will not be in my good graces for a very long time to come. Anyways, having said all that, I don't know whether I can join you in calling Dumbledore a hyppocrite. Just to make sure that I get the semantics right, I double checked free online dictionary ( Sometimes I get into rather big misunderstandings, simply because I get the definition translated incorrectly in my mind :-)) So, it states that Hypocrisy is " the act of pretending to have beliefs, virtues and feelings that one does not truly possess." Whatever Dumbledore does or says, it seems to me that Dumbledore IS sincere ( when he does not hide the truth of course :-) I do think that Dumbledore said that because he wanted Harry to learn from Sirius' mistakes ( again, wrong time, wrong place, zero knowledge of psychology, IMO, but sincerity is here). If Dumbledore indeed wants everybody to be kind to elves, what is hypocritical about it? I mean, I wish I could find a good reason of why Dumbledore chose to say it at that moment, but I suspect that this was simply for the plot related reasons ( yeah, I hate this explanation, but cannot come up with anything better). Besides, not only Dumbledore wants everybody to be kind to House Elves, but he indeed does it. Hogwarts Elves ARE treated better than many elves in other wizarding households. Sure, it would be ideal if critique of Sirius attitude towards Kreacher would come from Dumbledore's mouth when Harry will be more capable of dealing with his grief, but then I guess we would have to wait till HBP. Is there other definition of hypocrisy which I am not aware of? Just my opinion and my opinion only, Alla From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri May 20 03:32:46 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 03:32:46 -0000 Subject: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129197 > Chys: > > Why in the trophy room in JKR's site, is Tom Riddle's name on a > trophy/award? *has wondered about that for a while.* > > Also another note I posted earler, that Yahoo swallowed I think: MG > Said that she shouldn't have been so cross with Peter in book 3, if > she had only known. (During a hogsmead visit. They were talking of GH > and Sirius/Peter incident.) I wonder if that means that at the time > she didn't know he was a DE? Just beacause you are a follower of LV > doesn't mean you know all the others who follow him as well. Makes me > think that she was just nervous in book 4 when crouch was under > veritaserum, and didn't know how much he knew of her. > > > Chys Antosha: It's Fudge who says "If only we had"--and that's in reference to sending Ministry agents after Sirius. McGonagall is full of regret for having been "sharp" with Peter... for not having been as talented as Sirius and James. I imagine it's the same regret that she's been feeling, old softy that she is, for harping on Neville. The difference is that Neville is actually quite brave. Peter's weak. How the hell did he get sorted into Gryffindor? (Then again, he's neither ambitious, clever nor loyal, so one must imagine the Sorting Hat sitting atop his head saying, "Oh, dear. Now where in the heck do I place you?") The award was given to Tom for "special services to the school"--for "capturing" Hagrid. Ironically, it's the same award that Harry and Ron get for their "secret" rescue of Ginny. Antosha From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Fri May 20 04:50:36 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:50:36 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: <20050519233822.92029.qmail@web32605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129198 > I thought a while ago that one source of inspiration, > probably secondary, for the plot of each book might be > the illustration of one deadly sin versus one cardinal > virtue. >What now? If we agree to assign Sloth vs Zeal to PoA > then we are left with Pride vs Humility and Gluttony > vs Moderation. It is my belief that the two will be > played hard in the following books, with bad guys > paying for their greed, perhaps the Dursleys starting > to see the light and allow for others' needs as well, > and most importantly, Harry's modesty in front of > fate, death included, prevailing over Voldemort's wish > to live forever and rule the world. Percy's gluttony > for power might also feature. Pride vs Humility is so > important that I think it will be saved for the last > book. Centaurs will have to lower their pride and > collaborate with wizards. Wizards will have to stop > believing themselve superior to muggles. Neville, as > the humble one, might give even Harry certain lessons > about the dangers of pride, not to mention that Harry > himself will understand why James and Sirius' > arrogance was not all that worthy of praise and > discover in him the gentle strength of his mother. > > I am sorry if this sounds boring or if it was > discussed before, and I look forward to reading your > replies, should you find that it is worth commenting > on this idea. > > Mira Boring? You've got to be kidding. That's quite ingenious! PoA is, in fact problematic. But then, it's the most problematic book in the series, so far-- the one where she shifts from telling a single story in each book to telling a true serial tale; the one where Voldemort makes no appearance; the one with the most convoluted (and, to me, most satisfying) resolution. I suppose Sloth is definitely possible--one could see Sirius as an exemplar of both Sloth and Zeal, in that he has allowed himself to languish in prison in animal form for twelve years, before leaping into action with all... four feet. Makes one think of Circe and her pigs. Of course, that's gluttony, but whatever. I think if your schema is correct we can count on Pride/Humility being the last book, since not only is Pride the greatest of the Deadly Sins, but it is the absolute defining sin of Voldemort--his arrogance, not to suffer the same fate that every human being suffers. And Harry, at his core, is nothing if not humble. It's what makes Draco and Snape's constant sniping about his supposed attention-seeking so galling. He is properly proud of his achievements, but he rarely lets pride motivate him. In any case, I think we can agree that this pairing will define book seven. That leaves Gluttony vs. Moderation for HBP, which sounds good to me. Harry definitely needs to learn moderation--moderation in his own self-indulgence in anger, guilt and grief. I thought Luna started him down that path quite nicely at the end of OotP. Gluttony... well, if we see Dudley sneaking food by the fistful in the first chapter, I think we can agree you're definitely on to something. :-) And when Erisichthon McClaggan comes in, stuffing his face with lemon creams, we'll be certain. Antosha From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri May 20 05:57:09 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 05:57:09 -0000 Subject: Voldy, Macbeth and the ambiguity of prophecy (spoilers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chys Sage Lattes" wrote: > > He should have just told Harry that there was something therein the DOM, which he had a copy of there at Hogwarts, that LV wanted to get his hands on, and that LV would do anything to get Harry to go there to get it for him, since only Harry could touch his copy of it. Could have told him he would give him DD's copy of it the day he joined the Order, and the whole MOM DOM fiasco with Sirius dying wouldn't have happened. Harry would have been confused, but he'd have been assured of getting it eventually. Tonks: Now you know Harry better than that. He would never just sit around waiting to be old enough to join the order to find out what the big secret was about. The trio would have had another adventure trying to find out what the secret was and one way or another would have gotten into some sort of trouble. Harry is too curious at times for his own good. Tonks_op From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Fri May 20 07:08:13 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 07:08:13 -0000 Subject: Why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldemort while he had the chance? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129200 >In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > Well that's the question now isn't it, why didn't Dumbledore kill > Voldemort when he had the chance? > > Laura B. Deborah now: Same reason Saddam Hussein's in prison awaiting trial, and not six feet underground. Same reason the Allies wanted to capture Hitler alive, and same reason he pre-empted them. If the Dark Lord of the moment is lawlessly zapped, rather than terminally weakened/put on trial for war crimes/exposed as a fake/made to wear a hat with a vulture on it/whatever, his followers still have a dream to follow. Remember all those 'Hitler is secretly still alive in South America' conspiracy theories? Not to mention the fact that summarily killing anyone you don't like the look of is Dark Lord behaviour, and how is anyone to know the good guys from the bad guys if they all behave the same way? DD is a teacher before he's anything, and setting a good example is archetypal good-teacher behaviour. And, yes, Harry is the good guy. And it's his job to do the vanquishing, though not necessarily the killing. Sooner him than me; I wouldn't have a clue! I just hope it'll be better than in the (often excellent) Susan Cooper books, where the bad guys are usually to be seen pulling ugly faces and spinning off into the void! From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri May 20 08:43:34 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 08:43:34 -0000 Subject: What magic would Harry use to kill anybody? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonia Chu" wrote: > > I was reading POA again and noticed in the scene after Sirius Black > > dragged Ron into the Womping Willow and to the Shrieking Shack, > Harry > > had a chance to kill Sirius. > > But exactly what Kind of magic Harry, a 3rd year student, would > > use to kill a full grown wizard? > > Angie responds: > Going way out on a limb, maybe Harry thought that he could shoot fire > or an electrical type current from his wand into Sirius's heart? > Really far out there: could he have "transfigured" his wand into a > weapon such as a knife? Or, once a wand, always a wand??? Or simply have transfigured Sirius's heart into... well, just about anything else. Even a botched transfiguration would do the job. We're handicapped by our lack of knowledge of just what spells Harry knows at this point, but, even though he may not know any curses specifically intended to kill, surely he knows plenty of ways to misuse magic to cause death or serious injury. Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri May 20 09:42:15 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:42:15 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129202 What would you like to see happen in Book 6? I've got a few scenes I would love to read, ranging from the serious to the silly: The sudden realization by a magical *adult* (other than Molly Weasley, who seems to already have figured this out)that shunning and isolation are, perhaps, not the best possible ways to help a traumatized, grieving child. Kreacher Vs. Dobby--Tonight on Pay Per View! Harry learning to ask questions: "So, uhm, if the Purebloods are all inter-related, who are my dad's closest relatives?" "How much money is there in this bloody vault, and is this all my parents left me?" "So Professor, how does one go about vanquishing Dark Wizards?" Umbridge vs. Granger--Grudge Match! Harry gets kissed by a girl who is not crying. "My name is Draco Malfoy. You put my father in Azkaban. Prepare to... urk." Thud. Harry and the girl who is still not crying go to the Room of Requirement and, uhm, find what they require. What would you like to see? Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Fri May 20 09:45:32 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 09:45:32 -0000 Subject: why didn't Dumbledore kill Voldemort while he had the chance... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mad_maxime" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laura" wrote: > > Well that's the question now isn't it, why didn't Dumbledore kill > > Voldemort when he had the chance? > Max responds: > > Dumbledore seems to have great trust in the prophecy. I think he > believes Harry is the only one who can truly kill Voldemort once and > for all. And attempting to evade prophecy can have horrifying results. Just ask Oedipus. Amiable Dorsai From elfundeb at gmail.com Fri May 20 10:42:25 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 06:42:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80f25c3a0505200342d624a57@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129204 Very late entry - it took me this long to look up the links. > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Luna Lovegood. Or Percy. Reasons described here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/113568 (Luna) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/58796 (Percy) > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) I am tempted to say that there is no HBP; that, rather, it is an old legend like the Chamber of Secrets. But, since the Chamber turned out to exist after all, I must conclude that the legend is also true and that the HBP is . . . Salazar Slytherin. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Nothing significant about Lily will be revealed in HBP. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? It will be a new character, not named Felix Felicis. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Nobody. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Whoever it is will be a hard-liner of the Crouch ilk. Of the MoM employees we know, Amos Diggory best fits that description. However, I will go out on a limb and completely contradict my logic by predicting that the ever-so-evil Ludo Bagman will get the job. He will be a front for the hardliners as well as the DEs. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. Not Dumbledore's. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. Didn't Harry notice how much better Neville seemed to do at the O.W.L. exam without Snape's regular humiliation? > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Everything except Divination and History of Magic. Not all were Outstanding, though. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. 1. Potions! We will learn more about the Draught of Living Death, which Harry will use as a portal through the Veil. Luna might accompany him; if so, she will not return. 2. Draco will turn 17 and officially join the DEs, a fact that Harry will discover near the climax of the book. There will be no redemption for Draco in HBP. 3. Ron will be subjected to the Imperius Curse and behave like a DE. See prior answer for the identity of the perpetrator. 4. Percy will be too proud to admit he was wrong and beg forgiveness from his family; instead he will attempt to redeem himself by skirting the law in an attempt to rescue a family member in trouble, and getting himself in worse trouble. 5. Hermione will become an animagus. If not this book, then in book 7. Note how she told Percy on her first day at Hogwarts that she was particularly interested in Transfiguration. (This was my earliest prediction about the books, made long before I found this group.) And, a bonus prediction: We will learn that Neville's use of magic has been hampered by a Memory Charm. We will also learn that it was not inflicted by any of the Pensieve Four, but by someone at the Ministry, most likely Fudge, to prevent Neville from revealing what the MoM did to Frank and Alice in an attempt to elicit testimony from them (which Dumbledore commented was "none too reliable" but which Bellatrix seems to confirm was accurate in at least some respects). Debbie who hasn't read most of the other predictions yet and hopes there isn't too much duplication here From anurim at yahoo.com Fri May 20 03:04:01 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Thu, 19 May 2005 20:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050520030401.80260.qmail@web32614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129205 --- Shanoah Alkire wrote: > I've actually thought a bit about something similar > before: I feel the > DADA teachers are meant as examples of the deadly > sins in question... It could be true, but I think the theme runs deeper in the books, and the sins/virtues are examined from various points of view and quietly challenged. > Admittedly, some of this can be attributed to > circumstances > surrounding him, but he has shown a pattern of being > a good man who > does nothing. Not that I dislike him: I'd see a lot > of the sloth on > his part as stemming from severe depression. Brilliant observation. I would never think of it because I like Lupin very much, but you are more than a little right. It is interesting that although I didn't spot this, I strongly suspected the sloth/zeal is the theme assigned to PoA. Now I am convinced it is true. After I sent the first email I thought of another example: Harry pays attention in Hagrid's class and works to master the correct way to approach a Hyppogrif, which will later help him save Sirius. Draco, on the other hand, lazes and shows off on Hagrid's explanations, then proceeds in the completely wrong way, which has consequences not only for him (the arm wound) but even more for the supposed, and actually innocent, 'criminal'. Actually, Lupin and Sirius embody quite well the sloth/zeal opposition, in the ways they fight depression, as I mentioned already and you justified perfectly. How do you think Gluttony and Pride will be shown in the next books? Mira __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri May 20 11:09:56 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:09:56 -0000 Subject: What magic would Harry use to kill anybody? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129206 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonia Chu" wrote: > > > I was reading POA again and noticed in the scene after Sirius > > > Black dragged Ron into the Womping Willow and to the Shrieking > > > Shack, Harry had a chance to kill Sirius. > > > But exactly what Kind of magic Harry, a 3rd year student, would > > > use to kill a full grown wizard? > > > Angie responds: > > Going way out on a limb, maybe Harry thought that he could shoot > > fire or an electrical type current from his wand into Sirius's > > heart? Really far out there: could he have "transfigured" his > > wand into a weapon such as a knife? Or, once a wand, always a > > wand??? > Amiable Dorsai: > Or simply have transfigured Sirius's heart into... well, just about > anything else. Even a botched transfiguration would do the job. > > We're handicapped by our lack of knowledge of just what spells Harry > knows at this point, but, even though he may not know any curses > specifically intended to kill, surely he knows plenty of ways to > misuse magic to cause death or serious injury. > Valky: Since the question phrased what *kind* of magic would he have used I won't say that the suggestions above aren't valid, I think they are. But since the question was what kind of magic *would* Harry have used to kill. The answer has to be none. He wouldn't have done it, he just said that he would blinded by his pain, when faced with the actual real decision to do kill Sirius (or anyone) coldbloodedly I doubt he would go through with it. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 20 11:18:48 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:18:48 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shanoah Alkire" wrote: > The first time we see him, he is sleeping on the train, arguably > sleeping on the job. He hasn't really spent any time on his appearance > (surely he could have bought a new set of robes for the first day, or > at least a less used set!), and doesn't appear to be taking care of > himself. Gerry Well, I'd say his 'sin' was poverty. Robes cost money, and according to Harry he looked like a person who could use a few good meals. If you cannot afford decent food, how can you afford robes? Sloth would be if he were dirty, unwashed. Not looking very, very poor, tired and underfed. Let's say what the book actually says (Poa, Bloomsbury hardcover edition, p 59): The stranger was wearing an extremely shabby set of wizard's robes which had been darned in several places. He looked ill and exhausted. I'd say the reason he was sleeping was that he was ill and exhausted. Nothing wrong with that. As for the robes, they were darned, so he obviously has taken the trouble to keep them in as good a state as he can afford. Darning costs time and effort. Look at the description of his suitcase: 'small, battered case held together with a large quantity of neatly knotted string.' If JKR had wanted to describe sloth, his robes would have had holes, the string would not have been neatly knotted. JKR does a very good job of describing poverty. > > We also find out that he is a friend of Harry's dad, who has never > bothered to let him know he exists, visit, send presents, check on his > wellbeing, etc, for the last 13 years, even after Harry found out > about the wizarding world. Just like every other friend of Harry's dad, or mum for that matter. > > He then goes through the whole year sitting back and not doing > anything, sitting on the information that a dangerous mass murderer on > the loose is an animagus, much as he sat back and did nothing during > his time in school while James & Sirus harassed Snape, and Sirus > crossed the line to attempted murder. Gerry That is not sloth. Weakness of character in these respects, yes, I can see that. But not sloth. Another reason he kept his mouth shut is that subconciously something had been nagging him about the whole Black as a traitor idea. I can easily imagine that part of him just could not believe that the official version was true. I can imagine him hoping to confront Black himself, because he needed to know. > > Admittedly, some of this can be attributed to circumstances > surrounding him, but he has shown a pattern of being a good man who > does nothing. Not that I dislike him: I'd see a lot of the sloth on > his part as stemming from severe depression. Gerry Sloth is lazyness. Knowing you should make an effort, but not bothering to do so, out of unwillingness, not lack of ability. Remus has weaknesses. He is a very friendly character who wants to be liked, and who lives in extremely difficult circumstances. He is also very loyal. Sloth, no. Gerry From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Fri May 20 11:33:40 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:33:40 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: <20050520030401.80260.qmail@web32614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129208 > > How do you think Gluttony and Pride will be shown in > the next books? > > Mira > Valky: Mira this is a lovely boat, Wow! Someone else suggested that Gluttony and Moderation would be HBP. Does that ring true to the words of the title though? The words Half Blood Prince seem to suggest this book will be taking an interest in the WW nobility and bloodisms, two things that strongly suggest Pride as a theme. Maybe though, going with the DADA teacher hypothesis, if HBP were Pride then I would jump ahead and say that the teacher will be Severus Snape. But then again I never thought Snape would get the DADA job before book seven so that would start to rule out Pride as the HBP theme for me. Adding another couple of factors that I think apply, some decorations I have replicated from other ships in TBAY and around ports here, book six will be related to love - Pride relates to the heart. But Book six is also the logic Puzzle (Hermione's triumph) which relates to the mind and that is more lending to a theme of gluttony. I am not getting anywhere *throw up hands* :( Well anyhow, Mira, *Valky extends a hand* I'd love to come aboard and be the resident rambling lunatic. Valky From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 20 11:38:03 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 11:38:03 -0000 Subject: What magic would Harry use to kill anybody? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129209 > > > I was reading POA again and noticed in the scene after Sirius Black > > > dragged Ron into the Womping Willow and to the Shrieking Shack, > > Harry > > > had a chance to kill Sirius. > > > > But exactly what Kind of magic Harry, a 3rd year student, would > > > use to kill a full grown wizard? > > > Angie responds: Gerry Well, he could ofcourse blow him up, we know from the beginning of the book he is capable of that. And if you keep someone blowing up, and blowing up and blowing up, I imagine in the end they'll explode... Gerry From anurim at yahoo.com Fri May 20 11:50:08 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 04:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050520115009.37198.qmail@web32602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129210 --- antoshachekhonte wrote: > PoA is, in fact problematic. But then, it's the most > problematic book in the series, so far-- > the one where she shifts from telling a single story > in each book to telling a true serial > tale; the one where Voldemort makes no appearance; > the one with the most convoluted > (and, to me, most satisfying) resolution. I suppose > Sloth is definitely possible--one could > see Sirius as an exemplar of both Sloth and Zeal, in > that he has allowed himself to > languish in prison in animal form for twelve years, > before leaping into action with all... > four feet. Makes one think of Circe and her pigs. Of > course, that's gluttony, but whatever. I think Sirius is actually illustrating Zeal, not Sloth. He had actively resisted the Dementors, as much as anybody can, and when he found a reason to escape, managed to worm his way out of prison. In OotP we see him anxious to be useful and bitter that he is not allowed to work. Shanoah Alkire was right in identifying Lupin as an example, albeit a very subtle example, of Sloth. > I think if your schema is correct we can count on > Pride/Humility being the last book, since > not only is Pride the greatest of the Deadly Sins, > but it is the absolute defining sin of > Voldemort--his arrogance, not to suffer the same > fate that every human being suffers. > And Harry, at his core, is nothing if not humble. In my opinion it is much more difficult to separate the sinful part of pride from the rightful one. It is probably the hardest sin to avoid, because it is so easy to slip in its territory, boundaries being so fuzzy. Yes, I agree we'll see a magnificent story about Pride and Humility in the last book. > It's what makes Draco and Snape's > constant sniping about his supposed > attention-seeking so galling. He is properly proud > of > his achievements, but he rarely lets pride motivate > him. In any case, I think we can agree > that this pairing will define book seven. > > That leaves Gluttony vs. Moderation for HBP, which > sounds good to me. Harry definitely > needs to learn moderation--moderation in his own > self-indulgence in anger, guilt and > grief. I thought Luna started him down that path > quite nicely at the end of OotP. > Gluttony... well, if we see Dudley sneaking food by > the fistful in the first chapter, I think we > can agree you're definitely on to something. :-) And > when Erisichthon McClaggan comes > in, stuffing his face with lemon creams, we'll be > certain. Dudley has already been used for comic effects. On the contrary, I expect, or rather hope for, a more subdued Dudley. Now he had an encounter with Dementors, perhaps Dudley will start asking questions and try to understand and also define himself, away from the influence of his parents. It won't make him in any way nicer, but we can hope to see him a little less shallow. Perhaps we can anticipate a positive character falling prey to Gluttony. If the Lion Man is indeed the new DADA teacher and not an image of Godric Gryffindor - and it is possible, because he doesn't look antiquated at all - he certainly look like somebody fond of life's pleasures. I am borrowing again here an idea from Shanoah Alkire, who said that DADA teachers are the main embodiments of the sin specific to each book. But I expect much more than one gluttonous character. Jo is far too subtle not to know that there is a type of gluttony in abstinence as well, for instance. We'll see, and I, for once, I am getting more and more impatient by day. Now I am more certain than ever that in the last book Snape himself will be DADA teacher. He is the least humble character I can think of. Mira Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online and more. Check it out! http://discover.yahoo.com/ From anurim at yahoo.com Fri May 20 12:10:44 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 05:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050520121044.1614.qmail@web32613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129211 --- festuco wrote: > Gerry > Sloth is lazyness. Knowing you should make an > effort, but not > bothering to do so, out of unwillingness, not lack > of ability. > > Remus has weaknesses. He is a very friendly > character who wants to be > liked, and who lives in extremely difficult > circumstances. He is also > very loyal. Sloth, no. It's hard for me too to accept this, Gerry, but Shanoah Alkire was partly right. I completely agree with you that sleeping on the train is not a sign of sloth, and I like what you say that Lupin kept his mouth shut about Sirius because he was not completely sure that his former friend was guilty. Still, he didn't try to convince himself, one way or another. And he did forget to take his potion, which is almost intolerable, irrespective to his state of mind at the time. I am not trying to judge Lupin's behavior, but it is still true that he put people in grave danger with the above attitudes. Think of Sirius: the death his best friend, betrayed by the secret-keeper Sirius himself suggested, an unfair sentence, a horribly long stay in Azkaban, universal opprobrium, risking the worst possible fate known to a wizard, and yet he did anything to reach Peter and both revenge James and protect Harry. Including practically throwing himself in the grasp of his tormentors. Lupin had a dazzling bad luck to be bitten by a werewolf. Of course, he is shunned by most wizards and finds hard to obtain a job to support himself. He has all the reasons to feel sorry for himself. However, he is at least at the right side of the law, he doesn't suffer as badly as he used to due to Snape's potion, and there are many people who don't know his situation, not to mention those who have the heart in the right place and are free from prejudices and just don't care what he is. Lupin shares Sirius' grief, true, but at least he is free from guilt. At least he doesn't have to live off dead rats. At least he can afford to mentor Harry openly. Yet, he doesn't really find the boldness to act, to take fate in his hands. Perhaps it is not sloth at all, just a lack of audacity, but still, I think Shanoah Alkire was right saying that it has a certain relevance to the sin theme I suggested. The less doubtful argument for Lupin's inclination to sloth is, I think, the fact that he tolerated the bad behavior of his friends but never tried to stop them, not even when they clearly overstepped the boundary of decency (provoked or not, as in the Pensieve episode). So, yes, Lupin is an extraordinary person, but he does like his comfort a little too much and at the very least, he doesn't really stand up for his beliefs. I am not criticising him by writing this, only trying to understand him better and like him as he is, not as we would like him to be. I already said how much I admire Jo for putting into perspective and effectively debating each moral notion she introduces in her books. Mira From anurim at yahoo.com Fri May 20 12:25:26 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 05:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050520122526.72112.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129212 --- "M.Clifford" wrote: > to earlier in the > day but was laying on sand nursing a stuffy head> Welcome aboard ANTIVIRUS Valky, please feel at home. Shanoah and Antosha, I didn't welcome you properly because I was busy talking, but thanks for coming, I cannot tell you how glad I am if you enjoy being here. > Maybe though, going with the DADA teacher hypothesis, if HBP were > Pride then I would jump ahead and say that the teacher will be > Severus Snape. But then again I never thought Snape would get the > DADA job before book seven so that would start to rule out Pride as > the HBP theme for me. Lunatic minds think alike, my dear new shipmate. I already mentioned the Snape connection to pride in an earlier post. I also think Gluttony is a little too low a sin to deserve being the core of the last book. One way or another, it has to be Pride. None of the titles really reflect the sin theme, or perhaps only in a very convoluted way, so we don't have to try to read too much in the HBP. But still, gluttony can be easily associated with greed, and aren't pure bloods fiercely greedy and selfish by wanting to confine wizardry only to themselves? > Adding another couple of factors that I think apply, some > decorations I have replicated from other ships in TBAY and > around ports here, book six will be related to love - Pride relates > to the heart. But Book six is also the logic Puzzle (Hermione's > triumph) which relates to the mind and that is more lending to a > theme of gluttony. When you talk about the logic puzzle, do you mean to say that the plot of the whole series is concentrated in the tasks Harry, Ron and Hermione have to fulfill to get past the protections of the stone? Is there such a ship navigating on our sea? If I took your comment wrongly than please set me straight. Hermione is possibly my favorite character, so I'd love her to triumph, at least if she can do it by staying clear of any sacrifice. > Well anyhow, Mira, *Valky extends a hand* I'd love to come aboard > and be the resident rambling lunatic. Valky, welcome again *shaking Valky's hand*. Let's play! Mira From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri May 20 13:47:34 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 13:47:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy Was: Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Anyways, having said all that, I don't know whether I can join you > in calling Dumbledore a hyppocrite. > > Just to make sure that I get the semantics right, I double checked > free online dictionary ( Sometimes I get into rather big > misunderstandings, simply because I get the definition translated > incorrectly in my mind :-)) > > So, it states that Hypocrisy is " the act of pretending to have > beliefs, virtues and feelings that one does not truly possess." > > Whatever Dumbledore does or says, it seems to me that Dumbledore IS > sincere ( when he does not hide the truth of course :-) > > I do think that Dumbledore said that because he wanted Harry to > learn from Sirius' mistakes ( again, wrong time, wrong place, zero > knowledge of psychology, IMO, but sincerity is here). > > Is there other definition of hypocrisy which I am not aware of? > > > Just my opinion and my opinion only, > > Alla I agree that "hypocrisy" is not the best term to use for Dumbledore at the end of OOTP, for the reason you cite. Hypocrisy implies a conscious effort to decieve, which I don't think is what is going on here -- at least, to be more specific, I don't think that's what JKR is trying to convey. Perhaps a better way to characterize DD here is "disingenuous." That is "lacking in candor although appearing to be frank." Now, I suppose it is open to discussion as to whether being disingenuous implies a conscious effort to decieve, although I don't think it necessarily does. I think that DD was appearing to be candid with Harry but nevertheless leaving unsaid a lot of rather important information and/or corollaries. It can be argued he is doing so, not from a conscious effort to decieve, but because to raise them would be too emotionally painful. Perhaps another way of looking at it is that DD's approach to Harry is inhibited by a misguided sense of tact and/or restraint that unfortunately leads him to deal with these matters without fully facing up to the facts. This is a failing common to emotionally restrained individuals. Thus his discussion of Kreacher lacked an acknowledgment of Harry's particular situation. His discussion of being nice did not take into account Harry's recent loss, and his discussion of how damaging being ignored is was frankly appalling, considering the conditions under which Harry was raised. So "hypocrite?" No. "Disingenuous?" Perhaps. Restrained to the point of ignoring important elephants doing the lambada on his carpet? Definitely. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri May 20 14:08:00 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 14:08:00 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > What would you like to see happen in Book 6? I've got a few scenes I > would love to read, ranging from the serious to the silly: > Okay, with the proviso that these are all tongue-in-cheek (well, mostly anyway). Ron: "Hermione, uh..." Hermione: "Kiss me already, I'm not getting any younger you know." Snape: "I see you managed a miracle on your OWL, Longbottom." Neville: "That's correct, Snivellus." McGonagall: "Your behavior recently is unexceptable, Mr. Potter." Harry: "Have a biscuit, Professor." Tonks: "Have you ever thought about finding a good woman, Remus?" Remus: "Why would I want somebody ELSE around the house to go into a brainless snit once a month?" Remus: "I'd like to be a help to you, Harry." Harry: "Aren't you a little old to start something new?" Kreacher: "Stupid half-breeds..." Buckbeak: SQUAWK! GOBBLE! CRUNCH! Dumbledore: "The choice is between what is right and what is..." Harry: "Oh, shut the f@*k up!" Lupinlore From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 20 16:13:06 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:13:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy Was: Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129215 > > Alla: > > Erm. I am not so sure at all. It is no secret, that just as you say, I also consider Dumbledore's advice especially about Kreacher to be given at very, very, very wrong time and place. > > I do go back and forth on whether he helped Harry or not when he > allowed him to crash his office ( it is a possibility that it helped Harry) but there is nothing, absolutely nothing ( in my opinion only of course) which can justify him saying to Harry how wrong Sirius was when not even couple hours passed after man died. Pippin: When should he have said it then? How long should he have allowed Harry to feel that Sirius's contempt for Kreacher was deserved? Sirius held Kreacher guilty by association, and made him suffer when Kreacher hadn't yet done any harm -- isn't that the very definition of prejudice? None of this is to say that Sirius deserved to die. His error was carelessness not malice. But carelessness can kill. Harry might have been more receptive to this message at a later time, though I doubt it. His misconceptions might only be deeper engrained. But in any case, Dumbledore's safety is at end; Voldemort knows now that his fear of Dumbledore was needless, and he may be back to finish the job at any moment. The choice is not between the very, very wrong time and a possible better one -- it's a choice between the wrong time and no time at all. However painful it may be for Harry to hear that his godfather erred, Harry needs to know because Harry is in grave peril of making the same mistake himself, as his contempt for Draco shows. Harry doesn't think Draco can hurt him, and in this he's surely wrong. Dumbledore's warning may be vain--but how could he live with himself if he spared Harry's feelings and Harry fell into the same trap? Pippin From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri May 20 16:20:25 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:20:25 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > day but was laying on sand nursing a stuffy head> > > > > > How do you think Gluttony and Pride will be shown in > > the next books? > > > > Mira > > > > Valky: > I have replicated from other ships in TBAY and around ports here, book > six will be related to love - Pride relates to the heart. But Book six > is also the logic Puzzle (Hermione's triumph) which relates to the > mind and that is more lending to a theme of gluttony. > Have you noticed how the HBP book covers tend to validate the chalenges matching up to the books? The adult cover was a potions book, matching up to the logic puzzles potions, and then we had the cover with HP & DD surrounded by fire, which the potions puzzle was as well. I've personally started wondering if the text of the logic puzzle is predicting what will happen in book 6, as well. Which would be good news for Hagrid and Flitwick, as "neither dwarf or giant holds death on their insides"... From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 16:44:34 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:44:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129217 Alla: Erm. I am not so sure at all. It is no secret, that just as you say, I also consider Dumbledore's advice especially about Kreacher to be given at very, very, very wrong time and place. I do go back and forth on whether he helped Harry or not when he allowed him to crash his office ( it is a possibility that ithelped Harry) but there is nothing, absolutely nothing ( in my opinion only of course) which can justify him saying to Harry how wrong Sirius was when not even couple hours passed after man died. Pippin: When should he have said it then? Alla: Hard to come with exact time of course, but most certainly NOT at the same day man died, IMO. How about a month or two after the events? How about when he sees that Harry's initial grief and shock had lessened? Pippin: How long should he have allowed Harry to feel that Sirius's contempt for Kreacher was deserved? Sirius held Kreacher guilty by association, and made him suffer when Kreacher hadn't yet done any harm -- isn't that the very definition of prejudice? None of this is to say that Sirius deserved to die. His error was carelessness not malice. But carelessness can kill. Alla: Are you saying that we have to praise Dumbledore that he did not say that Sirius deserved to die? I am a little confused.I would say that it is not up to Dumbledore to pass the judgment whether Sirius deserved to died or not, IMO. So, I am not sure how is it relevant. Personally I feel that Sirius' feelings towards Kreacher were deserved, that is IF he was Sirius equal. Kreacher was loyal to House of Black and hated Sirius because Sirius had no feelings of loyalty towards that House. I think that Kreacher would not stop to hurt Sirius even IF he was treated with kindness, because his feelings of loyallty towards Sirius' mother were too strong ( just speculating here). Of course we will never know, since Sirius did not treat him kindly, but I absolutely disagree that he did it because of prejudice towards House Elves. I would say because of hatred towards his family and anything connected to it. Pippin: But in any case, Dumbledore's safety is at end; Voldemort knows now that his fear of Dumbledore was needless, and he may be back to finish the job at any moment. The choice is not between the very, very wrong time and a possible better one -- it's a choice between the wrong time and no time at all. Alla: Huh? Could you explain please in more details why Dumbledore had to say that now and could not wait later? Is Harry in danger of treating ANY house elf the way Sirius treated Kreacher? I agree with the earlier sentiments that Harry is the one who treats house elves as equals ( much more so than Hermione, IMO) So, I don't understand at all, why couldn't Dumbledore say it later? Especially since I want to take back my earlier statement that Dumbledore said that in order for Harry to learn from Sirius' mistakes. I see no sign that Harry is in danger of committing such mistake in the first place. Nope, I just think that Dumbledore was engaging in plot based explanations of why Sirius died, Pippin: However painful it may be for Harry to hear that his godfather erred, Harry needs to know because Harry is in grave peril of making the same mistake himself, as his contempt for Draco shows. Harry doesn't think Draco can hurt him, and in this he's surely wrong. Dumbledore's warning may be vain--but how could he live with himself if he spared Harry's feelings and Harry fell into the same trap? Alla: Confused here again.You are analogising Draco to House Elf? Are you saying that if Harry treated Draco with kindness , Draco would do the same to him now? Besides, Harry certainly mocks Draco at the end, but he does NOT let his guard down when dealing with Draco and hopefully never will. In conclusion, I don't agree that Dumbledore said that to spare Harry's mistakes. I think that was untimely plot related explanation of Sirius failings. Just my opinion, Alla. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri May 20 18:01:26 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:01:26 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: <20050520121044.1614.qmail@web32613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mira wrote: > --- festuco wrote: > > > Gerry > > Sloth is lazyness. Knowing you should make an > > effort, but not > > bothering to do so, out of unwillingness, not lack > > of ability. > > > > Remus has weaknesses. He is a very friendly > > character who wants to be > > liked, and who lives in extremely difficult > > circumstances. He is also > > very loyal. Sloth, no. > > It's hard for me too to accept this, Gerry, but > Shanoah Alkire was partly right. I completely agree > with you that sleeping on the train is not a sign of > sloth, and I like what you say that Lupin kept his > mouth shut about Sirius because he was not completely > sure that his former friend was guilty. Still, he > didn't try to convince himself, one way or another. > And he did forget to take his potion, which is almost > intolerable, irrespective to his state of mind at the > time. I am not trying to judge Lupin's behavior, but > it is still true that he put people in grave danger > with the above attitudes. > Calling it "sleeping on the job" was actually going a bit far, and I really see that more as that JKR was aiming at having your first impression of Lupin be him asleep on the train. It certainly was the first thing that caught my eye when matching up teachers to the deadly sins... And I agree he had reasons for most of what I mentioned. That, really, is how the whole cycle starts. You justify why you can't do something right now, and put it out of your mind, and the reasons grow as you continue to put it off, until events either force you take action, or the time for action passes. He has had far more hardship in his life then anyone should. He probably always was somewhat inclined to slack off a bit, and it, unfortunately, is very easy to get into that type of vicious cycle under those circumstances. > So, yes, Lupin is an extraordinary person, but he does > like his comfort a little too much and at the very > least, he doesn't really stand up for his beliefs. I > am not criticising him by writing this, only trying to > understand him better and like him as he is, not as we > would like him to be. > Exactly. And it is important to remember that he has his virtues as well. He is a good teacher, has a good mischevous streak, and obviously inspired enough loyalty in his friends for them to become unregistered animagi. And he's certainly not Ever-So-Evil. He's just Loony Loopy Lazy[1] Lupin... [1]"Then they saw a silvery-white orb hanging in the air in front of Lupin, who said, "Riddikulus!" almost lazily." (And if I had to pick which character in the books I'm most like, both for good and bad, it'd probably be Lupin) It's also worth mentioning that Sloth wasn't always one of the seven sins. It used to be Tristia, translated as either sadness or despair. The more I think about it, I think JKR used both as themes in PoA. Oh, and as far as Sirius goes, don't fogret the sloth on the part of the ministry, which didn't bother to give Sirius a trial or chance to defend himself. Then 12 years of despair in Azkaban followed. You probably ought to add in Aunt Marges distribe about laziness to the list of examples, too. From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 20 18:06:57 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:06:57 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129219 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > Betsy: > > But don't you see that as a Muggleborn Hermione faces some of the > > exact same prejudices? And that Lupin and Hagrid are hurt by > > prejudice and react to that prejudice in the exact same way > Hermione would? > > a_svirn: > > Nope, I don't see that. Hermione is universally admired. Pippin: Um, no. Remember the way Lucius reacted to Hermione's parents in CoS? Remember Rita Skeeter's article in GoF, and the hate mail telling Hermione to go back where she came from? Remember the bubotuber pus? You may not think much of Draco's quartet, but their opinions come from home, and Lucius is (or was) a very influential wizard. There are evidently a lot of people who agree with him, though they might not be willing to say it where Albus Dumbledore can hear them. Lupin, Maxime and Hagrid face the same allegation as Hermione: they're outsiders so they must have loose morals. (Ugh!) Hermione understands their needs because they happen to coincide with her own. But that doesn't always happen. She understands that Lavender is grieving over Binky, but not that Lavender needs to believe in Trelawney's prediction because it makes Binky's death seem less random and senseless. When Harry is stressed Hermione doesn't understand that he needs activity rather than quiet as she would. She doesn't predict that the centaurs' need to take revenge on wizardkind might outweigh their need to obey their laws. She thinks the House Elves' need to serve can't be natural, but she doesn't understand that it's real nonetheless and can't be dismissed. That's where her compassion goes off the rails. Pippin From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 18:20:58 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 18:20:58 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129220 -- > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" > wrote: > > What would you like to see happen in Book 6? Angie responds: At some point, I'd like to see the following (or something like it): Uncle Vernon put his hands on his hips. "I will not stand here and be insulted this way. We took this boy in and treated him just like one of our own ?" The mild look instantly evaporated from Dumbledore's face. He stood up, his eyes steely blue. "One of your own? You treated him with the same dignity and care as you treated your own son?" Uncle Vernon began the meaningless diatribe that Harry had been ignoring for years: "We gave him the food off of our table; gave him clothes . . . ." "As he had every right to expect you to ? you are his family, after all. And how did you take care of him?" Dumbledore's eyes blazed. "You never spoke a kind word to him! You never made him feel loved. You half-starved the boy and made him wear the clothes of your son, who is three times his size! You locked him in a cupboard under the stairs and in his bedroom, which you never bothered to make suitable for him! You made him work like a servant. Do NOT stand there, sir, and tell me that you treated him like one of your own. I think it's high time you saw things from Harry's perspective." The Dursleys were then forced to watch a condensed version of Harry's life. They tried to avert their eyes, but found that something unseen prevented them from doing so. Also, Angie would like to see: Draco spoke derisively over his shoulder as the left, "Even you can do better than a Mudblood like her, Weasley!" They stood alone without speaking for a moment: Ron, facing the door with his back to Hermione, obviously containing himself to not chase after Draco; Hermione, sniffing slightly. Finally, Ron broke the silence, his back still to her. "He's wrong, you know." Hermione sniffed again. "About what?" "About you." He turned around and walked toward her. "Nobody could do better than you, Hermione." Hermione was dumbstruck. Ron had never spoken to her in such an intimate manner. Finally, she managed, "Well, that's a sweet thing to say, R- Ron, b-but . . . ." She only faltered the split second before he kissed her. Ron learned the beauty of multi-tasking on the spot. Not only was the kiss pleasant in-and-of itself, but it also did what few things could do ? it stopped Hermione from talking. But only temporarily. When it was over, she said softly, "I'd given up on you, Weasleby." "One of the few times you were wrong, Hermy-own-ninny." Angie From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 20 19:18:24 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:18:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129221 > Alla: > Personally I feel that Sirius' feelings towards Kreacher were > deserved, that is IF he was Sirius equal. Kreacher was loyal to > House of Black and hated Sirius because Sirius had no feelings of > loyalty towards that House. > Pippin But Sirius refused to think of Kreacher as his equal, and that was not deserved. Alla: > I think that Kreacher would not stop to hurt Sirius even IF he was > treated with kindness, because his feelings of loyallty towards > Sirius' mother were too strong ( just speculating here). Pippin: Very true. But the irony is that if Sirius had freed Kreacher, Kreacher could have gone anywhere, but since he was still enslaved, he could only go to another member of the Black family. So in a way, Sirius determined that he would be betrayed. Alla: > Of course we will never know, since Sirius did not treat him kindly, but I absolutely disagree that he did it because of prejudice towards House Elves. I would say because of hatred towards his family and anything connected to it. Pippin: It's the "anything connected to it" that's the problem. Being connected is not a sin, but Sirius treats it as one. > Pippin: > But in any case, Dumbledore's safety is at end; Voldemort knows > now that his fear of Dumbledore was needless, and he may be back to finish the job at any moment. The choice is not between the very, very wrong time and a possible better one -- it's a choice between the wrong time and no time at all. > > Alla: > > Huh? Could you explain please in more details why Dumbledore had to say that now and could not wait later? Is Harry in danger of treating ANY house elf the way Sirius treated Kreacher? I agree with the earlier sentiments that Harry is the one who treats house elves as equals ( much more so than Hermione, IMO) Pippin: First, Dumbledore might not be alive in a few months to say it. If Fawkes had been a little slower, Dumbledore would have been dead already. Voldemort used to be too afraid to attack him -- no more. Meanwhile, Harry needs to be warned about the danger of holding his weaker enemies in contempt... "Well, I'm terrified now," said Harry sarcastically. "I s'pose Lord Voldemort's just a warm-up act compared to you three--" Draco and Goyle have just lost their fathers at Harry's hands, but Harry never considers that they might feel this loss just as acutely as he would or that even though they are weaker than he is, they might still harm him. Harry *has* let his guard down -- he just doesn't realize it. It is not that if Harry respects Draco's feelings, Draco will be kind in return. It's that only by respecting Draco's feelings can Harry have any understanding of what Draco feels. Only so can he be prepared for what Draco might choose to do. Pippin From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 20 19:36:01 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:36:01 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129222 > > > > > Betsy: > > > But don't you see that as a Muggleborn Hermione faces some of the > > > exact same prejudices? And that Lupin and Hagrid are hurt by > > > prejudice and react to that prejudice in the exact same way > > Hermione would? > > > > a_svirn: > > > > Nope, I don't see that. Hermione is universally admired. > > > Pippin: > Um, no. Remember the way Lucius reacted to Hermione's > parents in CoS? Remember Rita Skeeter's article in GoF, and the hate > mail telling Hermione to go back where she came from? Remember > the bubotuber pus? > > You may not think much of Draco's quartet, but > their opinions come from home, and Lucius is (or was) a very > influential wizard. There are evidently a lot of people who agree > with him, though they might not be willing to say it where Albus > Dumbledore can hear them. a_svirn: Well, there is no denying that the bad guys of the Potterverse don't like Muggle-borns. However, there are the good guys who do. And they are greater in number. Remember how the whole Hupplepuff house guarded Finch-Felly from Harry? How indignant everyone in the Gryffindor team was when Draco called Hermione "Mudblood"? Since you've brought up bubouber pus incident, you may as well recall *why* Hermione was getting this kind of hate mail. It was because she was believed to toy with affections of the two "most eligible bachelors" of the WW. (And she did land the pure-blood Krum). So you see, her origins didn't upset her social life. Neither are her career choices affected. Even now she is a prefect and is tipped to be a headgirl. Formally she can choose whatever career path she fancies. She can walk with her nose in the air and preach morals to her heart's content. Now werewolves, for instance, are pushed to the fringes of the WW. Even the good guys are wary around them. They are legally prosecuted. Remus would have never had a place in Hogwarts both as a student and as a teacher had his condition been known. While "mudblood" is an insult, "werewolf" is a stigma. While Hermione is choosing between the most prestigious wizarding professions Remus is struggling for survival. Not exactly the SAME prejudices. Pippin: > > Lupin, Maxime and Hagrid face the same allegation as Hermione: > they're outsiders so they must have loose morals. (Ugh!) Hermione > understands their needs because they happen to coincide > with her own. But that doesn't always happen. a_svirn: As far as I recall the only one who ever accused Hermione in loose morals was Rita Skeeter. She also accused the half-blood Harry in being mentally afflicted, the pure-blood Dumbledore and Arthur Weasely in being senile and incompetent respectively. And no doubt many others in a variety of sins. She may egg on prejudices against the muggle-borns when it suits her purpose, but she is also not averse of playing on the public's distrust of the bureaucrats and the privileged. Then again, when it suits her she can call Hermione "stunningly pretty" and Harry a young hero. In a sense you may say she is above all prejudices. And were Hagrid and Maxime indeed accused in loose morals? Can't recall the occasion. They are supposedly bloodthirsty and vicious ? something Hermione has never been charged with. Pippin: : > > > She doesn't predict that the centaurs' need to > take revenge on wizardkind might outweigh their need to obey > their laws. a_svirn: You think Hermione's problem with the centaurs has something to do with her being Muggle-born? I think it's just another "empathy failure" on her part. The centaurs were (justly) incensed with her because she was blatantly trying to use them. a_svirn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 19:42:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:42:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129223 Alla: Of course we will never know, since Sirius did not treat him kindly, but I absolutely disagree that he did it because of prejudice towards House Elves. I would say because of hatred towards his family and anything connected to it. Pippin: It's the "anything connected to it" that's the problem. Being connected is not a sin, but Sirius treats it as one. Alla: Being connected to something Dark simply by association is not a problem, true, but you know the saying " tell me who your friends are and I can describe what kind of person you are". I think its gist applies to Kreacher, sort of. Of course, if he was free, his personality could ahve undergone different development or not. Just look at Dobby. He was serving dark household and his personality is so not dark. Am I making sense? I am of firm believe that house elves should be freed, if that is what they want , BUT I don't think that Kreacher is a good being simply because he was enslaved. Alla wrote earlier: Huh? Could you explain please in more details why Dumbledore had to say that now and could not wait later? Is Harry in danger of treating ANY house elf the way Sirius treated Kreacher? I agree with the earlier sentiments that Harry is the one who treats house elves as equals ( much more so than Hermione, IMO) Pippin: First, Dumbledore might not be alive in a few months to say it. If Fawkes had been a little slower, Dumbledore would have been dead already. Voldemort used to be too afraid to attack him -- no more. Meanwhile, Harry needs to be warned about the danger of holding his weaker enemies in contempt... It is not that if Harry respects Draco's feelings, Draco will be kind in return. It's that only by respecting Draco's feelings can Harry have any understanding of what Draco feels. Only so can he be prepared for what Draco might choose to do. Alla: Erm. Thanks for the explanation, but I think you are giving Dumbledore a bit too much credit in speaking allegorically. Are you saying that when Dumbledore was talking to grieving Harry about misdeeds of his Godfather, he was actually warning him about Draco? Wouldn't be easier for Dumbledore to just say something like ... Harry do NOT underestimate Draco, ever. I would also speculate that if Dumbledore said that Harry may have been a bit more perceptive to the warning, IF that is indeed what Dumbledore had in mind. I still think that when Dumbledore was talking about Sirius, Sirius was the person Dumbledore was really talking about. If it is so, I think that Harry could go without at least that part of Dumbledore speech at all. Just my opinion of course, Alla From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 20 20:00:34 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 20:00:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129224 > Pippin: > > Draco and Goyle have just lost their fathers at Harry's hands, but > Harry never considers that they might feel this loss just as > acutely as he would a_svirn: I think he considers it. And it gives him no small satisfaction too. From sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri May 20 20:02:18 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:02:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elkin's TBAY: Minerva McGonagall Is Ever So Evil! Message-ID: <1f4.a25ff96.2fbf9c4a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129225 In a message dated 5/19/2005 9:34:28 PM Mountain Standard Time, antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com writes: It's Fudge who says "If only we had"--and that's in reference to sending Ministry agents after Sirius. McGonagall is full of regret for having been "sharp" with Peter... for not having been as talented as Sirius and James. I imagine it's the same regret that she's been feeling, old softy that she is, for harping on Neville. The difference is that Neville is actually quite brave. Peter's weak. How the hell did he get sorted into Gryffindor? (Then again, he's neither ambitious, clever nor loyal, so one must imagine the Sorting Hat sitting atop his head saying, "Oh, dear. Now where in the heck do I place you?") Scabbers hanging off Goyle's finger. Wormtail cutting off his right hand at the resurrection party. Peter does not lack courage. He lacks self-determination. Amber [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri May 20 20:45:03 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 16:45:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince Message-ID: <1e8.3ba17f02.2fbfa64f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129226 In a message dated 5/20/2005 3:45:42 AM Mountain Standard Time, amiabledorsai at yahoo.com writes: What would you like to see happen in Book 6? In a village called Little Hangleton, 72 years ago.... In a village called Godric's Hollow, 15 years ago, on Halloween... Dumbledore to Harry: "I trust Severus Snape, because..." Petunia to Harry: "I took you in, despite the fact I hated my sister and all she stood for because....." Dumbledore to Harry: "Between the destruction of your parents house and your arrival at Privet Drive you were...." Under a full moon and insane Willow tree at Hogwarts one night during the 70's..... Wizarding midwife to Snape: "You have a son! And his name is...." Sirius, from beyond the veil: "Where in heck is my motorbike?" Hagrid: "It's....." The Potter family tapestry. The Snape family tapestry. Amber (please fill in all blanks, at least by book 7) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 20 20:56:10 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 20:56:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129227 > Alla: > >> Of course we will never know, since Sirius did not treat him kindly, > but I absolutely disagree that he did it because of prejudice > towards House Elves. I would say because of hatred towards his > family and anything connected to it. > a_svirn: What do you mean by "prejudice against house elves"? Sirius was a proud owner of a house-elf (a slave in effect) and didn't hesitate to make use of him. Does it or does it not qualify as a prejudice? a_svirn From happydogue at aol.com Fri May 20 21:00:23 2005 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:00:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <1e8.3ba17f02.2fbfa64f@aol.com> References: <1e8.3ba17f02.2fbfa64f@aol.com> Message-ID: <8C72B96135A9CF7-F5C-88EB@mblk-r42.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129228 Mrs Norris appearing with a litter of orange furry kittnes. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 21:13:10 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:13:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129229 >>Betsy: >Aha! A light has been switched on! Yes, in this manner, Hermione is *very* condesending. All house-elves must be innocent by virtue of their victimization. The funny thing is, Hermione's view of house-elves parallels exactly the WW view: powerless, useful, not too bright creatures that need instruction.< >>Phoenixgod: >I'm confused. I thought you were arguing that Hermione wasn't a hypocrite? Seems to me that by saying her view and the wizarding world view of House elves aren't all that far apart *is* saying she has hypocritical views on house elves.< Betsy: To my mind, to be hypocritical is to *recognize* that you're doing one thing while saying another. Hermione is completely consistent in what she says and what she does. (House-elves should be free. I will help bring about their freedom.) And she's also completely genuine. However, because her views on the house-elves are so simplistic (because of her immature empathy skills), her attempts to help them become a form of condescension. More ignorant than malicious, but condescension, none the less. I would label the parallel between Hermione's view of house-elves and the WW's view of house-elves as irony. Betsy From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 21:38:01 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:38:01 -0000 Subject: Prejudice against Muggleborns (was:Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129230 >a_svirn: >Well, there is no denying that the bad guys of the Potterverse don't like Muggle-borns. However, there are the good guys who do. And they are greater in number. >...[Hermione's] origins didn't upset her social life. Neither are her career choices affected. Even now she is a prefect and is tipped to be a headgirl. Formally she can choose whatever career path she fancies.< Betsy: Unless she wants to work at the Ministry. Or teach at Hogwarts. (Name one known Muggleborn working at either place.) With the views commonly held in the WW, even if Hermione got a job in the bottom echelon of the Ministry, she couldn't hope to rise far. And the governing board would probably question the wisdom of Dumbledore hiring on a Muggleborn (so ignorant of *our* ways) where she might have undue influence on impressionable children. (Dumbledore had to sneak the werewolf and the half-breed past the board.) As to the "good-guys", remember how quickly Molly fell for Rita Skeeter's articles? And this right after Skeeter had told lies about Molly's own husband. I also question the "greater in number" claim. There were plenty of wizards and witches at the World Cup who were running, not to stop the Death Eaters torturing the Muggle family, but to join in the "fun". I don't think most of the WW support Voldemort, who is all kinds of extreme, but the prevailing view seems to not be friendly towards Muggles, and I'm sure that extends to Muggleborns. Hermione, with her intense research into all things wizard, would be well aware of the prejudices she faces. >>a_svirn: >While Hermione is choosing between the most prestigious wizarding professions Remus is struggling for survival. Not exactly the SAME prejudices.< Betsy: Not exactly the same, but similar enough for Hermione to recognize Lupin's struggle. Because, seriously, name one known Muggleborn who holds a prestigious job. I can't recall any. Which is why it's easier for Hermione to empathize with Lupin than with someone from such a foreign background their thinkng is completely different from hers, like the house-elves and the Centaurs. Betsy From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri May 20 21:38:20 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:38:20 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > What would you like to see happen in Book 6? I've got a few scenes > I would love to read, ranging from the serious to the silly: > > ...edited... > What would you like to see? > > Amiable Dorsai Bboyminn: Well, mine won't be as fun or funny as others have suggested. Also, it's nice that someone asked what I WANT to see rather than what I predict will happen; they are similar, but not quite the same. -I am desperate to get the inside details on Apparation, and I absolutely swear, and demand, that the kids in Harry's year have Apparation lessons at school. -Dobbie vs Kreacher has lot of potential. I really believe that through Dobbie's efforts the House-Elves will rally to defend the school and fight Voldemort. I could even envision a network of Elfin spies. -It would be nice if Ron would finally GET A CLUE regarding his feeling toward Hermione. Maybe the return of Viktor Krum would be enough to spur him to action. -I want some resolution on Sirius Black's death and the Black Estate. I don't see that happening until near the end of the book. Possibly only the ground work will be layed for the complete resolution in the final book. Of course, part of this requires that Sirius's name be cleared of the charges for which he was imprisoned. -Regarding that Black Family Estate, I've often speculated that it will come down to a fight between Harry and Draco; Harry by right of Sirius's hand written Will, and Draco by right of being the only living male who currently has Black blood in his veins. -I want Hagrid's name officially cleared, so he can get a new wand, and become a full-fledged wizard in good standing. I won't go into details, but in the past I've indicated that I think everything is in place for this to happen with the exception of the Ministy signing the documents. -I want to see Sirius's motorcycle again. I suspect Harry will stumble across it stored at Hogwarts where it has been all the time. -I want the DA Club to continue as an open officially sanctioned school club. I envision the start of term announcements in which Dumbledore tells everyone about the Club, and says that anyone who wants to join should contact Harry. That sort of pushes the situation on to Harry, which is how most things happen to him. -I further want the DA Club to be the means by which we discover the Good Slytherin. -I want the details on Godric's Hollow and the aftermath. -I want Harry and/or Hermione and/or Ron to give Gran Longbottom a good telling off for the way she treats Neville, along with an account of his outstanding bravely and loyalty during the Dept of Mysteries battle. It's high time someone set that woman straight. -I want to see, although probably not until book 7, Neville's parent recover at least to the extent that they can function again, so they can come home, and interact with Neville in a loving way. -I want what ever is holding Moaning Myrtle to an earthly life to be resolved so she can move on to the next life and rest in peace; poor girl just breaks my heart. -I want Fred and George to make Harry a silent partner in their business; silent in that Harry has no say, and silent in that they don't bother to tell Harry until some much much later date. This give Harry a safe and properous future that doesn't require endless trama and the rath of various dark wizards. I have a feeling that when this is over, Harry will have had more than his fill of dangerous adventure, and will be looking for a new more quiet and safe life. I want or suspect there is another connection between Harry and Neville. I've speculated that Harry might have stayed at Neville's until Dumbledore finished making the arrangements for Baby Harry. That's all I can come up with for now. Steve/bboyminn From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 20 21:40:26 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:40:26 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129232 . > > Alla: > > Being connected to something Dark simply by association is not a > problem, true, but you know the saying " tell me who your friends > are and I can describe what kind of person you are". > > I think its gist applies to Kreacher, sort of. Of course, if he was > free, his personality could ahve undergone different development or > not. > > Just look at Dobby. He was serving dark household and his > personality is so not dark. > > Am I making sense? I am of firm believe that house elves should be > freed, if that is what they want , BUT I don't think that Kreacher > is a good being simply because he was enslaved. Pippin: That's not what I'm saying. Of course Kreacher had a chance to decide whether or not to serve the good. But if his choice was not preordained how can you say that Sirius's treatment of him didn't matter? To say that no kindness could reach him is to say that Kreacher was a lost soul already. And even if we, as readers, have the right to make that judgement, Dumbledore does not. Nor did Sirius. > Alla: > > Erm. Thanks for the explanation, but I think you are giving > Dumbledore a bit too much credit in speaking allegorically. Are you > saying that when Dumbledore was talking to grieving Harry about > misdeeds of his Godfather, he was actually warning him about Draco? > Pippin: No, he was using a concrete example to warn Harry, without preaching to him, of a danger that all wizards face. Wizards pay a price for regarding their fellow Beings with contempt. Harry knew that Kreacher didn't wish him or Sirius well, he knew as well as JKR that no magic is foolproof, yet it never dawned on him that the House Elf might be lying. Pippin From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri May 20 21:39:19 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 17:39:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129233 Alla: >> Of course we will never know, since Sirius did not treat him >> kindly, but I absolutely disagree that he did it because of prejudice >> towards House Elves. I would say because of hatred towards his >> family and anything connected to it. a_svirn: > What do you mean by "prejudice against house elves"? Sirius was a > proud owner of a house-elf (a slave in effect) and didn't hesitate to > make use of him. Does it or does it not qualify as a prejudice? To call Sirius a "proud owner" of a house-elf is entirely false. For good or for bad, Sirius would have set Kreacher free if he'd had his way. As it was, however, Sirius was *forced* to keep the little git around because he knew too much about the Order. I can actually only think of *one* instance in which Sirius attempted to "make use" of Kreacher, and, not to criticize Jo, but I think the only reason it was written that way was to make a point of the fact that Kreacher had left the house. Throughout the rest of the book, however, cooking and cleaning is conspicuously left up to the witches and wizards. Most importantly, it should be noted that Sirius *never* made Kreacher help purge the house of his Mistress's belongings, although this would have been entirely in keeping with the normal Master/House-Elf relationship. Now, I'm not arguing that Sirius treated Kreacher with any respect or kindness. But I think it's clear that, at the very least, he was not interested in owning a House-Elf. Furthermore, I think one can infer from his discussion with HRH in GoF that, again, at the very *least*, he does not support House-Elf enslavement or mistreatment. If *only* because he associates it with his family. His treatment of Kreacher was wrong, yes. But I don't think it was prejudice that made him act so -- merely personal dislike. As for underestimating Kreacher -- well, Dumbledore can act all high and mighty if he likes, but do you really think it ever crossed *his* mind that Kreacher was even *capable* of betrayal? As the leader *and* Secret Keeper of the Order, it was more his responsibility than anyone else's to make sure that Grimmauld Place was secure. *Especially* if he was going to insist that Kreacher remain there. Personally, I would have forgiven Dumbledore of this oversight (no one else saw it coming, after all, and everyone makes mistakes), except that he goes out of his way to implicate Sirius in the matter. Sigh. Sometimes I can't fathom how the man takes himself seriously. He's worse than Lockhart in some ways. Laura (who swings wildly between being absolutely furious at Dumbledore at times and quite liking him at others.) From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 20 21:51:36 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:51:36 -0000 Subject: Dangerous Contempt (was: Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129234 >>Pippin: >Draco and Goyle have just lost their fathers at Harry's hands, but Harry never considers that they might feel this loss just as acutely as he would >>a_svirn: >I think he considers it. And it gives him no small satisfaction too.< Betsy: Then Harry is a fool. And will soon be a dead fool. Draco and Goyle are two against one. Throw in Crabbe, who is never far from the other two's side, and that's three against one. We've yet to see Harry even beat Draco in a one-on-one match (both have ended in a draw). Why should we expect he'd beat three wizards, two furiously out for blood? Harry was just lucky that Draco, Goyle and Crabbe chose to jump him in front of members of the DA while on the train home. I don't know if Draco and Goyle would have stopped at a mere hexing. Betsy From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Fri May 20 21:59:59 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (mgrantwich) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:59:59 -0000 Subject: Are Half-bloods the most powerful wizards of them all? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129235 --- "jen_kat_du" wrote: > I was thinking that maybe the reason that purebloods hate halfbloods > so much is because they are actually more powerful than they are. > Tom Riddle, Harry, and maybe even Dumbledore is a halfblood. > > Hello to everyone, > a new member Jennifer Hello Jennifer, welcome to the list. Interesting question but I don't think there is any difference in powers between pure- and halfbloods except in the minds of fanatics like Lucius Malfoy. I think Voldemort went after Harry first because as a halfblood (according to DE standards) Harry would have to "try harder" because of his flawed heritage. When you think about it, it's a bit of a slam against purebloods - but then I believe too that Voldemort isn't as impressed with his own followers as they are with themselves. Magda Question: another newcomer in the past week posted a new topic and asked for discussion and comment on it. I can't find that particular post but hope that there was discussion and that the new person feels welcome and involved. M. (former newbie) From sophierom at yahoo.com Sat May 21 00:03:54 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:03:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129236 Laura wrote: > As for > underestimating Kreacher -- well, Dumbledore can act all high and > mighty if he likes, but do you really think it ever crossed *his* mind > that Kreacher was even *capable* of betrayal? As the leader *and* > Secret Keeper of the Order, it was more his responsibility than anyone > else's to make sure that Grimmauld Place was secure. *Especially* if > he was going to insist that Kreacher remain there. > > Personally, I would have forgiven Dumbledore of this oversight (no one > else saw it coming, after all, and everyone makes mistakes), except > that he goes out of his way to implicate Sirius in the matter. Sigh. > Sometimes I can't fathom how the man takes himself seriously. He's > worse than Lockhart in some ways. > > Laura (who swings wildly between being absolutely furious at Dumbledore > at times and quite liking him at others.) Sophierom: But, from the very beginning, Dumbledore did see Kreacher's betrayal as a real possibility: "I warned Sirius WHEN we adopted twelve Grimmauld Place as our headquarters that Kreacher must be treated with kindness and respect. I ALSO told him that Kreacher could be dangerous to us" (Ootp, Am. ed., 832 - emphasis mine). So, he did see it coming. To my knowledge, that's why Dumbledore did not let Sirius free Kreacher (if Dumbledore did order him to keep Kreacher in the house, and I can't find that reference; if you could point it out, that would be great!). If Sirius had freed Kreacher early on, the house-elf would be under no obligation to keep any of Sirius's secrets. The only reason that Kreacher doesn't provide more information to the Death Eaters in OotP is that he was "bound by the enchantments of his kind, which is to say that he could not disobey a direct order from his master, Sirius" (831). So, it sounds to me that Dumbledore did see Kreacher as a real "danger." You can blame Dumbledore for accepting Sirius's offer of Grimmauld Place as headquarters, but I don't think you can argue that he didn't warn Sirius about the dangers Kreacher presented. This does make me wonder, why did the Order use Grimmauld Place? Was/Is it really the best locations for a Headquarter? Was it that Sirius, who felt he had little to offer the Order - think of Snape's taunts - insisted that Grimmauld Place serve as HQ, and Dumbledore, having no other options, accepted reluctantly? Or is there strategic value in having the Black family home as the HQ? (Or was it just a neat way for Rowling to introduce us to the Black family and all of its lovely skeletons and issues?) Getting back to Dumbledore, I don't think he does take himself as seriously as Laura suggests in her post. That is, I don't think he's conceited in the sense of Lockhart. Nor do I think he's self-important in the sense of Fudge or Malfoy. I don't think he's hypocritical, as the post heading suggests. I do like Lupinlore's suggestions that he's restrained (I believe it's Lupinlore - forgive me if I'm wrong!). I'd like to add another adjective in there: reactionary. Not in the political sense of the word - he's apparently progressive when it comes to house-elves and magical creatures. But he's reactionary in the most basic sense of the word. He's not the chess master that so many have claimed. He's not a master manipulator or an omniscient wise man. Dumbledore is the biggest pawn in the series. And we the readers, as well as poor Harry, have come to realize this by the end of OotP. By virtue of the prophecy, Dumbledore has never really been able to be pro-active about the threat of Voldemort. It's actually Harry who will get to be the most active player in the series. As much as this realization pains him at the end of OotP (What, I can't let Dumbledore deal with LV ... I have to kill him!), it will actually be a liberating experience for Harry, I think. Painful, but liberating. And I think it must be painful for Dumbledore to sit back and let things happen as they will. Is he failing to follow his own advice about neglect and indifference? Well, yes and no. Yes, he "neglected" Harry as a child. But I believe that Dumbledore saw this as the lesser of two evils, recognizing the importance of the blood protection. Yes, Dumbledore chose to let Harry grow up thinking he wasn't anything special (and I believe he did this not because he wanted to make Harry tough but because he knew that the Dursleys would threaten to kick Harry out if a bunch of wizards dropped by Privet Drive and to keep Harry company ... of course, I have no evidence except Vernon and Petunia's fanatical dislike of wizarding society and Vernon's trek to the island in the sea to avoid the owls in PS as possible evidence for this theory). Yes, Dumbledore chose not to tell Harry about the prophecy. But as he himself admits that this develops precisely because he wasn't indifferent to the boy. So, in the bigger scheme of things, no, Dumbledore didn't neglect Harry's safety (he was attempting to protect him) and he didn't feel indifferent to him. Whether or not he made good decisions is not the issue. These were not good decisions. But, it seems, given the constraints Rowling has placed in her own universe, Dumbledore made the best of all possible decisions given a very bad situation. So, by the time that Dumbledore has to explain Sirius's death, Kreacher's involvement, and the prophecy to Harry, he has little choice but to tell Harry some very painful things. Was the timing bad? Hell yes. But did he have much of a choice? Well, since it was Harry who asked him how Kreacher could have betrayed Sirius, he could have avoided Harry's question, lied, or said what he did. I suppose he could have said something like, "Well Harry, Kreacher's relationship with Sirius is complicated," but given CAPSLOCK!Harry's state of mind at that moment, I don't know that he would have accepted a brush-off like that. Thinking back on canon, I can't remember a situation in which Dumbledore refuses to answer one of Harry's questions. It's just that Harry never asks questions that force Dumbledore to provide the complete truth. (At the moment, I don't have time to go through canon and look at each of Dumbledore's interactions with Harry; if I'm wrong about this, or if others have canon evidence available to confirm or contradict my suggestion above, please chime in!) Sirius's death, however, forces these issues to the surface. In other words, Dumbledore reacts to the situation, only giving information because he feels he has no other choice. I don't know if this makes Dumbledore good or bad, strong or weak, manipulative or caring. But I do think Dumbledore has far less power than we tend to ascribe to him. It's a rude awakening for Harry and a rude awakening for us, the readers, which is why I suspect that many of us, myself included, were pulling out our hair during those last few chapters of OotP, screaming at the book, "How did you let things get this way, Dumbledore!" What, I'm the only weirdo that did that? Oh, uh, okay. Never mind. That was actually a friend of mine, not me. Yeah, a friend did that. :-D All the best, Sophie From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 01:00:06 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 01:00:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129237 Pippin: That's not what I'm saying. Of course Kreacher had a chance to decide whether or not to serve the good. But if his choice was not preordained how can you say that Sirius's treatment of him didn't matter? To say that no kindness could reach him is to say that Kreacher was a lost soul already. And even if we, as readers, have the right to make that judgement, Dumbledore does not. Nor did Sirius. Alla: I guess I was not clear. Sorry! That is not what I was saying either. I was not saying that no kindness could reach Kreacher. it IS a possibility that it could ( although I would argue that we do see that Hermione sort of tried). I was saying that it is likely judging by Kreacher's fanatic loyalty to Sirius mother that he was indeed a lost soul already, regardless of what Sirius did or did not to him. The possibility, not a fact. If somebody kind tried to reach Kreacher many years ago, I think the posssibility of him turning away from Dark could have been there, but not now. It is just a speculation, but again look at Dobby. He was treated EXTREMELY bad in Malfoy's house. Has he turned to the Dark? Nope, so to me it is quite likely that kreacher could have done the same thing. I am saying that Kreacher should not be EXCUSED of his actions, of his betrayal, simply because he is a slave. Am I arguing that nobody should have tried to reach Kreacher in the present days? NO. Am I saying that IMO the possibility of success would have been very thin? Yes, I do. And as to Dumbledore passing judgment, well, isn't it exactly what he did? He passed judgment on the dead man in front of his grieving godson, no less and yes, I do find it extremely insensitive in the very least. Again, I do understand the plot based necessity to comment on Sirius' mistakes, but the simple RL analogy makes me cringe my teeth every time I read this scene. No matter what you think about somebody, who just passed away, I was taught not to say anything bad about this person AT LEAST to the friends and relatives of such person, to show respect for their grief, especially if those people are friends of mine, even if the person who passed away wasn't. I do wonder what makes me react so negatively towards this scene.I suppose I just interpret this scene as very strong diversion from my personal moral code. I guess and I may rethink it that when I read these words of Dumbledore I am feeling ashamed for the man. Boy, JKR is good, even in the scenes which I dislike she evokes such strong emotions from me. :-) Laura: To call Sirius a "proud owner" of a house-elf is entirely false. For good or for bad, Sirius would have set Kreacher free if he'd had his way. As it was, however, Sirius was *forced* to keep the little git around because he knew too much about the Order. Now, I'm not arguing that Sirius treated Kreacher with any respect or kindness. But I think it's clear that, at the very least, he was not interested in owning a House-Elf. Furthermore, I think one can infer from his discussion with HRH in GoF that, again, at the very *least*, he does not support House-Elf enslavement or mistreatment. If *only* because he associates it with his family. Alla: Me too! ( with every word of your post in fact) Sophie: So, by the time that Dumbledore has to explain Sirius's death, Kreacher's involvement, and the prophecy to Harry, he has little choice but to tell Harry some very painful things. Was the timing bad? Hell yes. But did he have much of a choice? Well, since it was Harry who asked him how Kreacher could have betrayed Sirius, he could have avoided Harry's question, lied, or said what he did. I suppose he could have said something like, "Well Harry, Kreacher's relationship with Sirius is complicated," but given CAPSLOCK!Harry's state of mind at that moment, I don't know that he would have accepted a brush-off like that. Alla: I think Dumbledore should have stopped right after he tells the story of Kreacher's betrayal. You know, right after Harry says " and Hermione kept telling us to be nice to him..." I think Dumbledore had no right at that moment to try and put the blame from Kreacher to Sirius. Kreacher consciously betrayed Sirius. I think Harry had an absolute right to hate him for a while, but nope, Dumbledore goes on and on and on. :-) I think and this is just a speculation, but I don't think that enslavement makes elves to be zombies,despite what Hermione believes. I don't think that such conversation would have been a brush off at all, IMO. Sophie: Thinking back on canon, I can't remember a situation in which Dumbledore refuses to answer one of Harry's questions. Alla: "Well.... Voldemort said that he only killed my mother because she tried to stop him from killing me. But why would he want to kill me in the first place? Dumbledore signed very deeply this time. "Alas, the first thing you ask me, I cannot tell you. not today. Not now." - PS/SS, p.299. Sophie: I don't know if this makes Dumbledore good or bad, strong or weak, manipulative or caring. But I do think Dumbledore has far less power than we tend to ascribe to him. It's a rude awakening for Harry and a rude awakening for us, the readers, which is why I suspect that many of us, myself included, were pulling out our hair during those last few chapters of OotP, screaming at the book, "How did you let things get this way, Dumbledore!" Alla: True, but there is a difference between making mistakes and acting stupid. You know, the difference between Dumbledore of PoA, who let Harry and Hermione go on the dangerous adventure which could kill them, Dumbledore of GoF,who let Harry compete in the tournament with large casualty rates and Dumbledore of OOP is a bit much for me. I never expected Dumbledore to act as G-d. I never saw him as G-d like figure, but I did expect him to act as powerful wizard,as leader of the resistance and as leader who cares about emotional state his soldiers are in. Was dissapointed, much. :-) Am cautiously optimistic about HBP though judging by the covers. :-) I really enjoyed reading your post, Sophie. Thank you very much! Just my opinion, Alla. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat May 21 01:25:40 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 01:25:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > > But, from the very beginning, Dumbledore did see Kreacher's betrayal > as a real possibility: "I warned Sirius WHEN we adopted twelve > Grimmauld Place as our headquarters that Kreacher must be treated > with kindness and respect. I ALSO told him that Kreacher could be > dangerous to us" (Ootp, Am. ed., 832 - emphasis mine). > So, it sounds to me that Dumbledore did see Kreacher as a real > "danger." You can blame Dumbledore for accepting Sirius's offer of > Grimmauld Place as headquarters, but I don't think you can argue > that he didn't warn Sirius about the dangers Kreacher presented. Of course you could. Ron & Hermione refer to Dumbledore saying to treat him with kindness, but the last part is never mentioned. Sirius said that they couldn't free him because he knew too much, but didn't attribute it to Dumbledore. The quote you mentioned is Dumbledore essentially saying "I told you so" well after the fact, when the one person who could definitely confirm that statement is dead. Not that I neccessarily think Dumbledore is a habitual liar. I just wanted to point out that the case could be argued... From Meliss9900 at aol.com Sat May 21 01:43:08 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 21:43:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129239 In a message dated 5/20/2005 4:42:02 PM Central Standard Time, bboyminn at yahoo.com writes: I am desperate to get the inside details on Apparation, and I absolutely swear, and demand, that the kids in Harry's year have Apparation lessons at school. You might get your wish on that one. JKR confirmed that Hermione was 12 soon after the start of 1st year and that makes her 17 in HBP. JKR also made it abundantly clear that one must be 17 to apparate. I can fully see Hermione being taught and then teaching it to Harry and Ron on their Hogsmeade weekends. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 21 02:55:20 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Fri, 20 May 2005 19:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall's Teaching Experience In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050521025520.64278.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129240 I was just listening to OOtP and noticed something I didn't on previous reads/listens. When Umbridge is doing her inspection of McGonagall's class she questions her at the end of class about how long she has taught at Hogwarts. M says she has taught 39 years this December. Has anyone on list or elsewhere discussed if they think the date is of interest. It would mean M came to Hogwarts 3 months after the start of term. I am wondering why JKR would let us know that if it doesn't lead somewhere. It seems superfluous. When Trelawney is questioned the answer is "nearly 16 years." Just curious. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DANCERWH86 at aol.com Sat May 21 03:02:39 2005 From: DANCERWH86 at aol.com (Lindsay!!) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 03:02:39 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shanoah Alkire" wrote: <<<> Exactly. And it is important to remember that he has his virtues as > well. He is a good teacher, has a good mischevous streak, and > obviously inspired enough loyalty in his friends for them to become > unregistered animagi. And he's certainly not Ever-So-Evil. He's just > Loony Loopy Lazy[1] Lupin..>>>> I have to disagree with equating Lupin with Sloth. Sloth is wastefulness and laziness, yes, but there is still much more to this. It also includes cowardice, lack of imagination, complacency and lack of responsibility. One, I don't believe that Lupin is lazy so much as he is ill. Lycanthropy does have a tremendous effect on him physically, mentally. In that respect he seems to more readily equated with a leper- -shunned by his society, "unclean", and frail/ill. He isn't lazy when he is sleeping on the train as much as tired from the disease he suffers from. It also doesn't show a lack of responsibility because he had no way of knowing what would happen and when he was made aware he helped...I guess it's all how you look at it. In other respects his sleeping could also be less symbolic and more as a plot device to have Harry, Hermione and Ron be in the same compartment thinking they are alone and the sleeping man isn't to them. Also, Lupin is highly imaginative in his classes so he doesn't possess that trait either. He is also hardly a coward in PoA as he does what he can to face Peter and protect the others (yes here he was a bit irresponisble not taking the potion and what have you, but it was for the 'greater good' that he allowed himself to be turned astray--sloth also applies to the goals of ones heart and that certainly wasn't his goal). I don't believe Lupin is complacent since he does try to overcome his affliction but is cast down by the society (again more along the lines of leper if we're equating him wiht something along these lines). Not registering as animagi is irresponsibility on the other marauders parts not Remus's. It wasn't his sole decision and we don't know that he didn't put up some fight in this area. I just don't see him as sloth. Perhaps envy over his lot in life versus others. Is he flawed most definitely, but to err is human...I feel he isn't someone who has commited or represents a cardinal sin (which means damnation if one is not absolved of it) as just a person with flaws like anyone else. Lindsay ~~~~~~~~~~ Oh Joyous Summer: Allman Bros/Lynard Skynard, James Taylor, Journey, Dave (twice), Tom Petty/Black Crows, and if someone likes us up there--Rolling Stones to end it all!! This summer is going to rock girls! From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 03:28:12 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 03:28:12 -0000 Subject: Guardian Dumbledore (was: Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129242 >>Alla: >True, but there is a difference between making mistakes and acting stupid. You know, the difference between Dumbledore of PoA, who let Harry and Hermione go on the dangerous adventure which could kill them, Dumbledore of GoF,who let Harry compete in the tournament with large casualty rates and Dumbledore of OOP is a bit much for me.< Betsy You're exaggerating a bit about Harry's and Hermione's danger in PoA. (Some movie contamination perhaps?) Dumbledore already knew that Buckbeack had been rescued. He knew that no dead and/or mangled student bodies had been found following werewolf!Lupin's scampering off into the woods (which he does fairly quickly - and where Harry and Hermione were *not* waiting). And he may well have had strong suspicions about who'd conjured the Patronus that saved Harry and Sirius down by the lake. (One of Dumbledore's great strengths, I think, is his power of observation.) Harry and Hermione were in very little danger that night, and I believe Dumbledore realized what had already been accomplished by time-traveling students. All that was left was freeing Sirius. Hardly a dangerous task when you've got a hippogriff on hand. As to Dumbledore "letting" Harry compete in GoF, you're ignoring canon. Harry was bound by a magical contract. "He's got to compete. They've all got to compete. Binding magical contract, like Dumbledore said." (OotP scholastic hardback p. 278) Dumbledore had no choice, otherwise Harry would have been withdrawn from the competition immediately. I think Dumbledore was quite pleased with Harry's performance in the first two tasks (and why shouldn't he have been?), but he was not happy that someone had manipulated Harry into competing. So he set one of the WW's most decorated Aurors (and trusted Order member) to protecting Harry. And yes, that didn't end well, but fake!Moody fooled *everyone*. And since you've conceded that Dumbledore does not equal God hopefully you'll cut him a break here. Betsy, who realizes this is her fourth post in a day and will scamper off quietly into the night herself. :) From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 04:08:56 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 04:08:56 -0000 Subject: Guardian Dumbledore (was: Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129243 Betsy You're exaggerating a bit about Harry's and Hermione's danger in PoA. (Some movie contamination perhaps?). Alla: Nope, no movie contamination , but thank you for asking. :-) Betsy: Dumbledore already knew that Buckbeack had been rescued. He knew that no dead and/or mangled student bodies had been found following werewolf!Lupin's scampering off into the woods (which he does fairly quickly - and where Harry and Hermione were *not* waiting). And he may well have had strong suspicions about who'd conjured the Patronus that saved Harry and Sirius down by the lake. (One of Dumbledore's great strengths, I think, is his power of observation.) Harry and Hermione were in very little danger that night, and I believe Dumbledore realized what had already been accomplished by time-traveling students. All that was left was freeing Sirius. Hardly a dangerous task when you've got a hippogriff on hand. Alla: Um, I really don't want to get into mechanics of Time travel posting, but no, I think that Harry and Hermione were in a great deal of danger . Remember? "you must not be seen. Miss Granger, you know the law - you know what is at stake... You - must- not-be -seen" - PoA, p.393. Dumbledore probably knew that H at H already travelled in time, since everything indeed happens on the same timeline, but it does not mean that it could not go very wrong, IMO. Besides, even though I don't want to get into time travel mechanics, it must have started somewhere,don't you think? I mean, this Dumbledore knows that it happens but somewhere on the timeline future Dumbledore must have made this decision initially, right? When nothing was clear yet. Betsy: As to Dumbledore "letting" Harry compete in GoF, you're ignoring canon. Harry was bound by a magical contract. "He's got to compete. They've all got to compete. Binding magical contract, like Dumbledore said." (OotP scholastic hardback p. 278) Dumbledore had no choice, otherwise Harry would have been withdrawn from the competition immediately. I think Dumbledore was quite pleased with Harry's performance in the first two tasks (and why shouldn't he have been?), but he was not happy that someone had manipulated Harry into competing. Alla: Hmmm, I was just about to say that you snipped the part of my post, where I said that I know about magical contract, but then I reread my post and realised that I rearranged it quite a few times and did not include that part. So, my bad and here is my response. Yes, I know about magical contract. NO, I don't believe that nothing could have been done to get Harry out anyways. Why? because we have hints in the books, IMO, which show that loopholes in the law of WW could be found often. Arthur and his use of muggle artifacts for example? it is just speculation of course. Betsy: And since you've conceded that Dumbledore does not equal God hopefully you'll cut him a break here. Alla: Actually, when I concede the point, I clearly state so. I did nothing of the sort here. :-) I said that Dumbledore was not G-d, but this point was not debated, so there was nothing to concede, IMO. JMO, Alla From juli17 at aol.com Sat May 21 05:38:32 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 01:38:32 EDT Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129244 > I want or suspect there is another connection between Harry and > Neville. I've speculated that Harry might have stayed at Neville's > until Dumbledore finished making the arrangements for Baby Harry. > > That's all I can come up with for now. > > Steve/bboyminn Julie says: If baby Harry did stay at Neville's during that missing 24 hrs, could that be the reason Bellatrix tortured the Longbottoms? She wanted to find that Potter baby who turned Voldemort into Vapormort and destroy the child for good. Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat May 21 05:47:54 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 05:47:54 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's Teaching Experience In-Reply-To: <20050521025520.64278.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > M says she has taught 39 years this December. Has anyone on list or elsewhere discussed if they think the date is of interest. It would mean M came to Hogwarts 3 months after the start of term. I am wondering why JKR would let us know that if it doesn't lead somewhere. Tonks: I can't remember how long DD has been headmaster. Did something happen to the old headmaster and DD took over and then they had to get a new transfiguration teacher? Tonks_op From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sat May 21 06:05:49 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (Emily) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:05:49 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > What would you like to see happen in Book 6? snip imamommy: Ooooo! this one is too good! Hmm, what do I want? Lessee. 1) Harry and Hermione to fall in love. (what *I* want, remember?) 2) Petunia to admit she was once a witch, and gave it up. 3) No more Divination class 4) Neville to stuff Gran in that vanishing cabinet where we lost Montague for awhile. 5) To understand the significance of why Sirius had to die. 6) To know why DD trusts Snape 7) For Hermione to come face to face with a crumple-horned snorkack 8) To find out who the HBP is, Duh! 9) Harry taking advanced Potions 10) Hermione to figure out that she's going about SPEW the wrong way I'm sure there's more, but it's late and that's a good start anyway. imamommy From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 06:08:47 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:08:47 -0000 Subject: Dangerous Contempt - Harry vs Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>Pippin: > >Draco and Goyle have just lost their fathers at Harry's hands, but > Harry never considers that they might feel this loss just as > acutely as he would > > >>a_svirn: > >I think he considers it. And it gives him no small satisfaction > too.< > Betsy: > Then Harry is a fool. And will soon be a dead fool. Draco and > Goyle are two against one. Throw in Crabbe, who is never far from > the other two's side, and that's three against one. We've yet to > see Harry even beat Draco in a one-on-one match (both have ended in > a draw). Why should we expect he'd beat three wizards, two > furiously out for blood? > > Harry was just lucky that Draco, Goyle and Crabbe chose to jump him > in front of members of the DA while on the train home. I don't know > if Draco and Goyle would have stopped at a mere hexing. > > Betsy bboyminn: First, it's hardly one against three; it's more like three intelligent people (Harry/Ron/Hermione) against three self-aggrandizing idiots (Draco, Crabbe, Goyle); not to mention another 20 or so DA Club members on Harry's side. If we look at the reality of the situation, Draco, like many bad guys, is his own worst enemy. Draco has more to fear from himself than he does from Harry. In fact, to an objective observer, it was Lucius Malfoy who landed himself in prison, and not Harry. To Draco and his father, both of whose own sense of self-importants tells them that they are outside the reach of such petty and mundane things as the law, they must place the blame somewhere other than themselves. Draco blunders, blusters, and bullies his way through life with a royal sense of entitlement and privilege. That sense of entitlement and privilege isolate and prevent him from considering the wisdom and timing of his actions. He was stupid to attack Harry on the train, but like all self-important people, the lowly commoners and ordinary people need not be taken into account when making decisions. It's that same thinking that dooms Voldemort time and time again. Harry really doesn't have to do anything, and in truth, Harry has only extremely rarely initiated action against Draco, and even then he was provoked, all Harry has to do is stand back, and Draco will self-destruct. Of course, Draco is certainly capable of doing collateral damage in the process of self-destructing. Draco can never defeat Harry because much like Voldemort Draco is wholly convinced of his own wisdom and absolute superiority over all. That means that any plan he has is instantly a good plan by virtue of the fact that he himself thought of it. It's mere existance is all that is needed to validate it. Which again is exactly how Voldemort thinks and exactly what guaranttees the doom of any plan he may have. Harry is dispassionately trying to find a way out of or around any situation he is in, whereas Draco is driven forward blinded by his own arrogance and emotions; hardly seems a fair battle to me. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn "Tyranny is the architect of it's own doom" From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 06:14:21 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:14:21 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, juli17 at a... wrote: > > > I want or suspect there is another connection between Harry and > > Neville. I've speculated that Harry might have stayed at Neville's > > until Dumbledore finished making the arrangements for Baby Harry. > > > > That's all I can come up with for now. > > > > Steve/bboyminn > > Julie says: > If baby Harry did stay at Neville's during that missing 24 hrs, > could that be the reason Bellatrix tortured the Longbottoms? She > wanted to find that Potter baby who turned Voldemort into Vapormort > and destroy the child for good. > > Julie bboyminn: That's exactly what I think, but let's remember the timing. Neville's family was attacked a year or more after Voldemort was vaporized; just when everyone thought it was safe again. But yes, I suspect that Bellatrix and her friends might have suspected that since the Longbottoms were involved in keeping baby Harry safe, that they might have some inside information on that happened that fateful night. In addition, they were Aurors which gave them additional insight into the war against Voldemort and the aftermath. It would seem of all the people that they could readily access, the Longbottoms had a high potential for inside information. Just a thougth. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 07:15:08 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 07:15:08 -0000 Subject: Things... to see in H.B.P. - Apparation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 5/20/2005 4:42:02 PM Central Standard Time, > bboyminn at y... writes: > I am desperate to get the inside details on Apparation, and I > absolutely swear, and demand, that the kids in Harry's year have > Apparation lessons at school. > Melissa: > > You might get your wish on that one. JKR confirmed that Hermione was > 12 soon after the start of 1st year and that makes her 17 in HBP. > JKR also made it abundantly clear that one must be 17 to apparate. I > can fully see Hermione being taught and then teaching it to Harry > and Ron on their Hogsmeade weekends. > > Melissa bboyminn: Well, technically you are right, but since we are talking about what I WANT, I think there is room for broader speculation. So, here is the foundation of my thinking on Apparation class. It's true you can't get your licenses to Apparate until you are 17, an adult in the wizar world, but that is also true for practicing magic. Students are not allowed to use magic outside of school because they are underage, yet in school, under the supervision of qualified teachers, they are allowed to do all kinds of magic. Why would Apparation magic be any different? In the controlled confines of school, under proper supervision, and with proper training, I can't see any reason why they wouldn't be taught Apparation magic along with all the other NEWT level magic. I speculate (and WANT) everyone who is at least 16 years old at the time the Apparation lessons are given, will be able to take the class. Logically, and besides I want it, you must be taught at 16, so you can take the test at age 17. Fred and George turned 17 in April and that summer, three plus months later, took their test; how did they learn? Since Apparation is a difficult and dangerous thing to do, I don't think 'Dad' teaching you is sufficient; you need a qualified and competent teacher. Where better to find that then at school? So, everyone who is 16 at the time the lessons are given will be able to learn Apparation. That IS my story, and I AM sticking to it. ;) Steve/bboyminn From n.crins at planet.nl Sat May 21 09:10:06 2005 From: n.crins at planet.nl (niekycrins) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:10:06 -0000 Subject: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129250 We know that Snape became spy for DD before LV fell. DD even gives evidence in Snape's trial. I assume therefore that LV knows that Snape was a spy for DD, and that he refers to Snape as "the one who has left him forever, and who has to die". So, if LV knows, how could Snape spy? Also, since LV calls his DE by their names, they know of each other. So what did Snape do? Could he be spying on LM, maybe LM doesn't know of Snape being a spy? Or maybe Snape is double-crossing, but I doubt whether DD would fall for that Nieky From asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 09:33:29 2005 From: asian_lovr2 at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:33:29 -0000 Subject: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "niekycrins" wrote: > We know that Snape became spy for DD before LV fell. DD even gives > evidence in Snape's trial. I assume therefore that LV knows that Snape > was a spy for DD, and that he refers to Snape as "the one who has left > him forever, and who has to die". So, if LV knows, how could Snape > spy? Also, since LV calls his DE by their names, they know of each other. > So what did Snape do? Could he be spying on LM, maybe LM doesn't know > of Snape being a spy? Or maybe Snape is double-crossing, but I doubt > whether DD would fall for that > > Nieky bboyminn: Well, there is much and in mean MUCH speculation on this, but the only thing I've been able to come up with is that Snape is a double agent. Each side thinks Snape is spying for them. If Voldemort originally sent Snape to Dumbledore as a spy against the good side, but then Snape, unknown to Voldemort, became a spy for the good side, then we can explain everything that appears to be happening. Snape appears to be working for the good side, but at the same time, even by his own statements, Snape appears to be in contact with the Death Eaters and most likely even with Voldemort. So, how can both be true? Again, the only logical explanation I can find is that each side thinks Snape is a spy against the other. If each side thinks Snape is a spy, then they can make allowances for apparant loyalty to the opposite side. In other words, there are time when in order for Snape to be a good spy for Voldie, he must do things that make him appear loyal to Dumbledore. If Dumbledore suspects Snape isn't loyal, then he won't trust Snape, and he then becomes an ineffective spy for Voldie. Just as he must at times appear loyal to Dumbledore and appear to betray Voldie, there will logically come a time when he must do the opposite, appear to betray Dumbledore and appear loyal to Voldemort. Such is the nature of a double agent. Lots of people have other ideas, but I've yet to find another one that explains how Snape can still be in contact with Death Eaters. Snape himself said to Harry that it was Snape's job to spy on Voldemort. The only way to appear loyal to Voldemort is if he is appearing to spy on Dumbledore. This whole double agent/triple agent thing gets complicated and convoluted when you try to explain it, but I think you probably still get the main point. Just one man's opinion. Steve/bboyminn From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat May 21 09:39:34 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:39:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > Alla: > > It is just a speculation, but again look at Dobby. He was treated > EXTREMELY bad in Malfoy's house. Has he turned to the Dark? Nope, so > to me it is quite likely that kreacher could have done the same > thing. Hickengruendler: But Dobby was treated badly by wizards, who symphasized with Voldemort. Therefore him going Dark wouldn't IMO have made much sense, since it means he would have gone to the same side as the wizards he despises. Kreacher, on the other hand, loved Mrs Black, therefore I suppose that, despite of the beheading of house-elves, he was treated reasonably well by her. Of course that's just my specualtion, but I can't see that someone has that much affection to someone, who mistreated him. The Order members however, and especially Sirius, made pretty clear that they despised him. Therefore he had no reason to be loyal to them. And in the end he did the exact same thing as Dobby, namely turning against the master he despised and whom treated him badly. Therefore I really don't think Dobby's behaviour was all that different. The difference is just that Kreacher's master was on the good side and fighting for the right cause, while Dobby's was not. Hickengruendler From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sat May 21 10:51:12 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:51:12 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's Teaching Experience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos > wrote: > > > M says she has taught 39 years this December. Has anyone on list or > elsewhere discussed if they think the date is of interest. It would > mean M came to Hogwarts 3 months after the start of term. I am > wondering why JKR would let us know that if it doesn't lead somewhere. > > Tonks: > I can't remember how long DD has been headmaster. Did something happen > to the old headmaster and DD took over and then they had to get a new > transfiguration teacher? The Lexicon has it that Dumbledore became Headmaster in the 70's, so, McGonagall probably taught something else for several years. McGonagall's backstory has some interesting gaps, and there is a tantalizing hint that there may be much more to her than we've seen--when Harry tries to see McGonagall in the Hospital Wing after the Aurors Stunned her, Pomphrey comments: "As if one of them could have Stunned Minerva McGonagall face-on by daylight!" Interesting, that. In the opinion of a witch who knows her well, a spinsterish old schoolmarm like McG is a match for an Auror.... The Lexicon has it that Minerva graduated in 1943, a few years before Tom Riddle, and, presumably, smack in the middle of whatever it was Grindlewald was doing to earn his rep as a Dark Wizard. Dumbledore is supposed to have defeated Grindlewald in 1945--I wonder if he enlisted one of his prize students for the fight. What did you do during the war, Minnie? What did you do for 11 more years before you started teaching? And what did you teach before Dumbledore gave up the Transfiguration post? Amiable Dorsai From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sat May 21 11:38:33 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:38:33 -0000 Subject: Dangerous Contempt - Harry vs Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Draco blunders, blusters, and bullies his way through life with a > royal sense of entitlement and privilege. That sense of entitlement > and privilege isolate and prevent him from considering the wisdom > and timing of his actions. He was stupid to attack Harry on the > train, but like all self-important people, the lowly commoners and > ordinary people need not be taken into account when making > decisions. It's that same thinking that dooms Voldemort time and > time again. If it comes to a straight-up fight, Draco's toast; even he has to know that by now. The Ministry Crew--unarmed and at wandpoint--beat the Inquisitorial Squad plus an adult witch; Harry would easily have clobbered Malfoy and his bookends if Snape hadn't shown up, and, well, the incident on the train going home showed that it's not just Gryffindor vs. Slytherin anymore. So it won't be a straight-up fight. If Draco acts against Harry (and you know he will), it will be in a way that has worked for Draco before: underhanded and in the back. Amiable Dorsai From willsonkmom at msn.com Sat May 21 12:29:59 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:29:59 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's Teaching Experience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129255 Amiable Dorsai wrote: > What did you do during the war, Minnie? What did you do for 11 more > years before you started teaching? And what did you teach before > Dumbledore gave up the Transfiguration post? > Potioncat: Well, something must have happened mid-year, causing an opening for a teacher at Hogwarts. And JKR wanted us to know that McG started mid- year. But look at what we don't know: What did she teach when she first started? Was DD at Hogwarts? He could have left Hogwarts to work with Flamel. For that matter, DD may have left Hogwarts and she was his replacement. And, later, did McG become Deputy when DD became Headmaster, or was someone else in that spot? DD did not have to be on staff to become Headmaster. Healer Derwent was at St. Mungo's before she was Headmistress. So many questions about McGonagall! From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 12:31:35 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:31:35 -0000 Subject: Prejudice Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > Pippin: > > Um, no. Remember the way Lucius reacted to Hermione's > > parents in CoS? Remember Rita Skeeter's article in GoF, and the > hate > > mail telling Hermione to go back where she came from? Remember > > the bubotuber pus? > > > > You may not think much of Draco's quartet, but > > their opinions come from home, and Lucius is (or was) a very > > influential wizard. There are evidently a lot of people who agree > > with him, though they might not be willing to say it where Albus > > Dumbledore can hear them. Lucius is a prejudiced bastard. Rita Skeeter could not care less where Hermione came from, she was just the female interest in the Harry Potter story. And ofcourse there is nothing nicer to write about than a tragic hero abandoned by the one he loves for his foreign adversery. Friendship is just not interesting enough for the likes of Rita. As for the hatemail: It's hatemail, what would you excpect. It has nothing to do with her being muggleborn, but by her abandoning St. Potter, tragic young hero. If she were pureblood she would have gotten just as much and just as nasty letters. Only then probably about how she considered herself too good for him or such nonsense. Gerry From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Sat May 21 12:31:34 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:31:34 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129257 >amiabledorsai wrote: > What would you like to see happen in Book 6? Tammy: I want to see some true happiness for Harry! I don't want just a moment or a day or two. The poor boy hasn't been happy for at least 2 books, possibly 3 (POA and being hunted by a raving lunatic, not conductive to happiness). I doubt it will happen, but I can always hold out hope, can't I? I'd also like to see Harry finally realize that the one person who told him things and answered his questions in OOtP was Snape! Hey, why not ask old Snape a few more questions? For that matter, I agree that I'd like to see Harry simply ask a question or two. That boy is disgustingly lacking in curiousity when it comes to his past and his family. I want Harry to not get into Advanced Potions and rejoice about not having Snape as a teacher only to find out the first day that Snape is teaching DADA (or apparition!). I want to see more background on the teachers. Where do they live? Who's married? Where's the family? I want to see all of the Weasley family come out alive at the end of the book (unlikely as well, but once again, I hope) I want to see Hermione playing chaser for the Gryffindor Quidditch team. I can picture Ron taking a Bludger upside the head 'cause he's too busy watching Hermione. I want to see Umbridge come to terms with her Centaur experience, ultimately wandering into the Forbidden Forest to live with the Centaurs. Honestly, at this point, I just want to see the book! 55 Days is far too long! (but we're almost halfway on the 100 Days countdown) -Tammy, who finally broke down a reserved a copy of HBP From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 12:50:30 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:50:30 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's Teaching Experience In-Reply-To: <20050521025520.64278.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > > I was just listening to OOtP and noticed something I didn't on previous reads/listens. When Umbridge is doing her inspection of McGonagall's class she questions her at the end of class about how long she has taught at Hogwarts. M says she has taught 39 years this December. Has anyone on list or elsewhere discussed if they think the date is of interest. It would mean M came to Hogwarts 3 months after the start of term. Gerry My guess is that is when the job became available. I always assumed she followed up Dumbledore, who was transfiguration teacher. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 12:56:32 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 12:56:32 -0000 Subject: Guardian Dumbledore (was: Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > So, my bad and here is my response. Yes, I know about magical > contract. NO, I don't believe that nothing could have been done to > get Harry out anyways. Why? because we have hints in the books, IMO, > which show that loopholes in the law of WW could be found often. > Arthur and his use of muggle artifacts for example? it is just > speculation of course. The law is different from a magical contract. This contract is explicitly set up so nobody can get out, when entered. That is why people get warned about putting their names in, and that is why they have to be adults: to make that kind of decision, knowing nobody can get them out if they get cold feet. It is binding by magic, not by law. So no, Harry could not get out. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 13:08:25 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:08:25 -0000 Subject: Prejudice against Muggleborns (was:Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >a_svirn: > >Well, there is no denying that the bad guys of the Potterverse > don't like Muggle-borns. However, there are the good guys who do. > And they are greater in number. > > >...[Hermione's] origins didn't upset her social life. Neither are > her career choices affected. Even now she is a prefect and is tipped > to be a headgirl. Formally she can choose whatever career path she > fancies.< > > > Betsy: > Unless she wants to work at the Ministry. Or teach at Hogwarts. > (Name one known Muggleborn working at either place.) With the views > commonly held in the WW, even if Hermione got a job in the bottom > echelon of the Ministry, she couldn't hope to rise far. And the > governing board would probably question the wisdom of Dumbledore > hiring on a Muggleborn (so ignorant of *our* ways) where she might > have undue influence on impressionable children. (Dumbledore had to > sneak the werewolf and the half-breed past the board.) Hm, I don't agree. As pointed out before, Remus has a very contagious, dangerous disease. Quite natural that a lot of parents (also muggle parents) would not be overly fond of such a child in close proximity of their own. After all, safety measures can fail. As for the giants: they have a very, very bad reputation for violence. But muggleborns? From most of the staff we don't know whether they are pureblood, halfblood or muggleborn. For the MoM we know for a couple of people they are. We also know that most of the wizards and witches are not pureblood. Gerry From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 21 13:40:15 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 13:40:15 -0000 Subject: Prejudice Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129261 Gerry: > Lucius is a prejudiced bastard. Rita Skeeter could not care less where Hermione came from, she was just the female interest in the Harry Potter story. And ofcourse there is nothing nicer to write about than a tragic hero abandoned by the one he loves for his foreign adversery. > Friendship is just not interesting enough for the likes of Rita. Pippin: Rita identifies Hermione in the story as "Muggle-born Hermione Granger." Presumably she thinks her readers will find that relevant. I can't recall that purebloods are ever identified as such. Of course Lucius is prejudiced and everyone knows it. But few shun him on that account. It may not be socially acceptable to advocate killing Muggleborns, but it's quite all right to look down on them. And as Sirius told us, before Voldemort embraced violence many people approved of his views. Gerry: > As for the hatemail: It's hatemail, what would you excpect. It has > nothing to do with her being muggleborn, but by her abandoning St. > Potter, tragic young hero. If she were pureblood she would have gotten just as much and just as nasty letters. Only then probably about how she considered herself too good for him or such nonsense. Pippin: ::sigh:: I'm sure the purebloods don't have a monopoly on prejudice, but I also think that the person who wrote, " gO Back wherE you cAME from mUggle" didn't adopt that point of view just on Hermione's account. There is real prejudice out there, it's endemic, and based on the same poisonous ideology that condemns Hagrid and Lupin for being what they are. Hogwarts is a haven in a stormy sea and even it isn't entirely immune. What do you think Hermione would make of it that while the Ministry discussed closing the school after muggleborn Myrtle was killed, the decision was made within hours when it was pureblood Ginny who was taken? Pippin From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat May 21 13:50:21 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:50:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050521135021.29750.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129262 --- Steve wrote: > That's exactly what I think, but let's remember the timing. > Neville's family was attacked a year or more after Voldemort was > vaporized; just when everyone thought it was safe again. > > A year or more? Really? I thought it was more like a week to ten days after. I checked the pensieve chapter in GOF but didn't see a specific time reference. Anyone have one? Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fiscused at yahoo.com Sat May 21 03:48:28 2005 From: fiscused at yahoo.com (fiscused) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 03:48:28 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129263 A Slytherin join the DA/the good guys). Harry and Cho have a conversation. Ginny stay seeker--Harry decides to play another position or take the year off. As much of Tonks as possible. She is TOO cool! Find out what Nargles are! fiscused From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 21 06:51:58 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Chris Whittaker) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 06:51:58 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129264 Amiable Dorsai said; >What would you like to see happen in Book 6? I've got a few scenes >I would love to read, ranging from the serious to the silly: >Kreacher Vs. Dobby--Tonight on Pay Per View! I really want to see this one!! "You will not treat Harry Potter in that way!" Pow, punch, splat! >Harry gets kissed by a girl who is not crying. Maybe Susan Bones? >"My name is Draco Malfoy. You put my father in Azkaban. Prepare >to... urk." Thud. Absolutely! Draco the amazing bouncing feret rides, I mean bounces, again! >What would you like to see? I would also like to see Ron and Hermione get together romantically, but I would prefer it to be pausible to the story line. I am dying to know which plot device she uses on this one. It would be nice to see Harry get a lot more straight answers from DD. Also, I would like to see Skeeter vs. Granger rematch. And Granger wins hands down. Chris (flowerchild4) From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 14:35:20 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:35:20 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <1e8.3ba17f02.2fbfa64f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sunnylove0 at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 5/20/2005 3:45:42 AM Mountain Standard Time, > amiabledorsai at y... writes: > > What would you like to see happen in Book 6? > > > Angie again (who loves this thread): An explanation for Filch's mysterious connection with Mrs. Norris (is she really only a cat)? An explanation as to why Neville is so forgetful. Neville, using his Herbology know-how, discovers a plant that will restore his parent's sanity. What Dudley remembered when the Dementors attacked him. Aunt Petunia's reaction when she found Harry on the doorstep (my interpretation, nothing to back up that she was the one who found him). Harry tells Uncle Vernon to kiss his magic butt(can't happen, b/c Harry has to be able to return there the next summer, but a girl can dream). Snape's mysterious errand when the Order was reformed; (actually any revelation on Snape at this point would be welcome). Why LV was willing to spare Lily. The connection b/w the Dementor incident on the HW Express in POA and the Veil Scene in OOP -- why Neville, Ginny, and Harry who were the ones affected the most. I guess the rest can wait until Book Seven, when all will be revealed in a manner, I hope, that is unworthy of Dickens. Angie From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 21 15:02:51 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:02:51 -0000 Subject: Sirius's hypocrisy was Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129266 > Alla: > And as to Dumbledore passing judgment, well, isn't it exactly what > he did? > > He passed judgment on the dead man in front of his grieving godson, no less and yes, I do find it extremely insensitive in the very least. > > Again, I do understand the plot based necessity to comment on Sirius' mistakes, but the simple RL analogy makes me cringe my teeth every time I read this scene. No matter what you think about somebody, who just passed away, I was taught not to say anything bad about this person AT LEAST to the friends and relatives of such person, to show respect for their grief, especially if those people are friends of mine, even if the person who passed away wasn't. Pippin: And does that apply to Sirius's parents too? Kreacher loved them if nobody else did. How do you think Harry will feel if Sirius's legal heir decides to junk all of Sirius's possessions, wouldn't let Harry keep so much as a photograph or a pair of pants to remember him by, and jeered at him for even wanting them? That's what Sirius did to Kreacher. Viewed that way, it was an act of breathtaking cruelty, and far more spiteful than Sirius ever intended, IMO. But that's what happens if you regard someone as a servant unworthy of much interest. I don't think Dumbledore was ignoring Harry's feelings, however. I think he understood that Harry had found all this very painful to hear. Why do you think he wept? . Still, he's not as rough on Sirius as JKR is. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=61 Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal philosophy, but he does not always live up to them. For instance, he says in "Goblet of Fire" that if you want to know what a man is really like, 'look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.' But Sirius loathes Kreacher, the house-elf he has inherited, and treats him with nothing but contempt. --- Sounds like hypocrisy to me. I don't think it's a coincidence that Sirius's animal has an eagle in front and a horse's ***. But Dumbledore does not label Sirius a hypocrite, though I'm sure he's just as aware of Sirius's faults as JKR is. Dumbledore is not trying to make Harry feel worse, or minimize his loss. He is trying, as he said, to make Harry understand what is the danger that besets him. Voldemort is not the cause of the rot that permeates the wizarding world. He is a symptom. The rot is in the heart of every wizard who thinks he can lord it over other beings, whether it is purebloods over muggleborns, or humans over House Elves. Harry has never been so contemptuous of anyone, but then he's never been treated as the Chosen One. Very soon now, Neville will be wondering what it would be like to be the king. If contempt for lowlier creatures can destroy even as kind and generous a man as Sirius was, what might it do to Harry? I don't think Dumbledore's warning is before time. Pippin From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat May 21 15:15:36 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:15:36 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129267 I want answers, and lots of them: 1. To find out more about Harry's grandparents and how they died. 2. What did James and Lily do for a living? 3. How did the Potters come to have so much money? 4. More about the Malfoy family history. 5. McGonagall's history 6. Snape's background from birth to X-DE 7. What exactly did Tom do to become LV? 8. What did LV do to prevent his death? 9. What was Bella and gang looking for when they went to the Longbottoms? 10. What are the gum wrappers all about? 11. What is the significants, if any, of Ginny the 7th Weasley and only girl in (I forget) how many generations. 12. More about the history of Hogwarts and it's founders. 13. Why is the Bloody Baron bloody and who was he and how did he die? 14. How is the Friar connected to Hogwarts? 15. About the past Royal history of Hogwarts or the era in which Hogwarts was founded. Well that is a good start. That should make the book about 1500 pages long. Tonks_op From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 15:41:23 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:41:23 -0000 Subject: Prejudice against Muggleborns (was:Re: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129268 > >a_svirn: > >Well, there is no denying that the bad guys of the Potterverse > don't like Muggle-borns. However, there are the good guys who do. > And they are greater in number. > > >...[Hermione's] origins didn't upset her social life. Neither are > her career choices affected. Even now she is a prefect and is tipped > to be a headgirl. Formally she can choose whatever career path she > fancies.< > > > Betsy: > Unless she wants to work at the Ministry. Or teach at Hogwarts. > (Name one known Muggleborn working at either place.) With the views > commonly held in the WW, even if Hermione got a job in the bottom > echelon of the Ministry, she couldn't hope to rise far. And the > governing board would probably question the wisdom of Dumbledore > hiring on a Muggleborn (so ignorant of *our* ways) where she might > have undue influence on impressionable children. (Dumbledore had to > sneak the werewolf and the half-breed past the board.) a_svirn: We don't know enough to judge about that. What do we know about ancestry of Hogwarts faculty? Only that Trelawney was a granddaughter of the great Seer, and therefore probably, although not necessarily pureblood; that Remus on top of being werewolf is also a half-blood and that Flitwick has a touch of goblin in him. How do you now that McGonagall, say, is not a Muggle-born? I agree that there are probably certain limitations for muggle- borns' progress in the ministry. But that's not because of prejudices per ce. It's just that in the world when everybody is related to everybody Muggle-borns simply lack the connections requisite for success. We've seen how the network of small and not so small favours is working. Choosing between the promoting their, say, second cousin once removed and an upstart nobody eight out of ten heads of the departments would choose a cousin. Especially since they know that their own children start their careers at, say, St. Mungo and would expect their healer relatives to watch out for them. I am not saying that nepotism is a good thing, just that it's not the same thing as prejudice. Betsy: > > As to the "good-guys", remember how quickly Molly fell for Rita > Skeeter's articles? And this right after Skeeter had told lies > about Molly's own husband. a_svirn: Do you think that all the WW fell for Rita's fiction about Harry because he's a half-blood? Betsy: I also question the "greater in number" > claim. There were plenty of wizards and witches at the World Cup > who were running, not to stop the Death Eaters torturing the Muggle > family, but to join in the "fun". a_svirn: I assume you are referring to the following: "More wizards were joining the marching group, laughing and pointing up at the floating bodies. Tents crumpled and fell as the marching crowd swelled. Once or twice Harry saw one of the marchers blast a tent out of his way with his wand". I read it differently. I think that more *masked* wizards, that is more DE were joining to the group. Most of the present wizarding population was genuinely horrified, and anyway it would be stupid to join unmasked in the full view of Ministry officials. a_svirn From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 21 15:41:35 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:41:35 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129269 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shanoah Alkire" > wrote: > <<<> Exactly. And it is important to remember that he has his virtues as > > well. He is a good teacher, has a good mischevous streak, and > > obviously inspired enough loyalty in his friends for them to become unregistered animagi. And he's certainly not Ever-So-Evil. He's just Loony Loopy Lazy[1] Lupin..>>>> Lindsay: > I have to disagree with equating Lupin with Sloth. Sloth is > wastefulness and laziness, yes, but there is still much more to this. It also includes cowardice, lack of imagination, complacency and lack of responsibility. Pippin: Agreed. And on that basis I nominate OOP. It ties in with the unconscious troll of the fifth obstacle guarding the Stone, and with the lethargy Harry manifests at the Dursleys. Fudge is complacent about Voldemort's return, Harry slacks off on studying occlumency, Sirius takes no responsibility for the condition of Grimmauld Place or his own health and can barely muster the interest to be a responsible godfather, Snape is shown as a neglectedyouth, Dumbledore leaves the teaching of occlumency to Snape, Arthur falls asleep on guard, Ron slights his duties as prefect, and Umbridge always gets others to do her dirty work. Counter examples of zeal are Molly's efforts to clean house, the foundation of the DA, Hagrid's efforts with Grawp, Ron's persistence with Quidditch and the rescue by the Order. As for PoA, that's the book of anger vs. temperance. Although Harry has to deal with the gluttony of Dudley and dementors, and his own desire to hear his parents' voices again, it's anger that causes him to lose control and blow up Aunt Marge. Harry shows he has learned temperence when he is able to keep from killing Sirius, and later when he stops the killing of Pettigrew. IMO, the source of Lupin's passivity is not sloth -- it's anger. Passive aggressive behavior has been his hallmark since he was a child, pretending to go along with the rules while secretly disobeying them, and as he says, he hasn't changed. If he's secretly evil Lupin, then anger is even more obviously the theme of the book, but we won't know that for a while. Pippin From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sat May 21 15:58:48 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:58:48 -0000 Subject: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129270 I thought of Gluttany and Unicorn Blood. Would that be in reference to the theme? Chys From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sat May 21 16:02:12 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 09:02:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050521160212.50350.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129271 > IMO, the source of Lupin's passivity is not sloth -- it's anger. > Passive aggressive behavior has been his hallmark since he was a > child, pretending to go along with the rules while secretly > disobeying them, and as he says, he hasn't changed. > > If he's secretly evil Lupin, then anger is even more obviously the > theme of the book, but we won't know that for a while. > > Pippin I don't believe in ESE!Lupin (although I'm waiting for Pippin's thesis before I close my mind entirely - *nudge, nudge, hint, hint*) but I think there's something to this. Lupin is not the really nice guy of fanon - there's an edge there. It's an edge that is hidden because he literally can't afford to alienate people when he's constantly on the hunt for the next job or the next position but it's definitely there. Another sign of his passive-aggressiveness is his tendency to apologize for too much. He takes the blame on himself for his friends becoming animagi - because they did it for him. It's an interesting strategy - apologize for the big picture ("World hunger is my fault - I'm sorry") and it's harder for people to blame you for the little bit that is your responsibility ("No it isn't, dear! Don't feel that way! Only - next time - if you don't want your brussels sprouts, please don't stuff them behind the cushions on the sofa, all right?"). Nothing takes the wind out of your sails then chewing out someone who's agreeing with you. Magda Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 16:46:07 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:46:07 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129272 > a_svirn: > > What do you mean by "prejudice against house elves"? Sirius was a > > proud owner of a house-elf (a slave in effect) and didn't hesitate to > > make use of him. Does it or does it not qualify as a prejudice? > Laura: > To call Sirius a "proud owner" of a house-elf is entirely false. For > good or for bad, Sirius would have set Kreacher free if he'd had his > way. As it was, however, Sirius was *forced* to keep the little git > around because he knew too much about the Order. a_svirn: We don't know it. And I don't believe it. Also I'd like to point out that had he freed Kreacher before his house was chosen for the Headquarters, Kreacher wouldn't even been aware about the Order's existing. Laura: > > I can actually only think of *one* instance in which Sirius attempted > to "make use" of Kreacher, and, not to criticize Jo, but I think the > only reason it was written that way was to make a point of the fact > that Kreacher had left the house. Throughout the rest of the book, > however, cooking and cleaning is conspicuously left up to the witches > and wizards. Most importantly, it should be noted that Sirius *never* > made Kreacher help purge the house of his Mistress's belongings, > although this would have been entirely in keeping with the normal > Master/House-Elf relationship. a_svirn: Ah, but that's because Kreacher was continually obstructing Sirius's orders, not because Sirius refrained from giving them. Sirius was forever asking where "this blasted elf" was and what he was about and Kreacher was forever giving false assurances. "Kreacher was cleaning". He'd probably poisoned their food had he been allowed near kitchen. It's only Sirius that Kreacher can't harm because of the magic binding after all; the others are not in the clear. And don't you remember how Sirius was annoyed that Kreacher refused to take orders from Tonks? As for his bulling and verbal abuse of Kreacher (and probably physical too; he did throw him out bodily on one occasion), I'd say it's "entirely in keeping" with the normal "Bad Wizard"/House-elf relationship. Quite possibly entirely in keeping with the family tradition, in fact. Laura: > > Now, I'm not arguing that Sirius treated Kreacher with any respect or > kindness. But I think it's clear that, at the very least, he was not > interested in owning a House-Elf. Furthermore, I think one can infer > from his discussion with HRH in GoF that, again, at the very *least*, > he does not support House-Elf enslavement or mistreatment. If *only* > because he associates it with his family. a_svirn: It is not clear in the least. If you mean the piece of wisdom how one should treat one's inferiors, just think what does the word "inferior" mean: (1)"lower in rank, standing or degree" 2) "lower in quality or value". I think Sirius referred to the both of these meanings. How does it follow that he did not support house- elves enslavement? a_svirn From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 16:46:37 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:46:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius's hypocrisy was Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129273 Alla: Again, I do understand the plot based necessity to comment on Sirius' mistakes, but the simple RL analogy makes me cringe my teeth every time I read this scene. No matter what you think about somebody, who just passed away, I was taught not to say anything bad about this person AT LEAST to the friends and relatives of such person, to show respect for their grief, especially if those people are friends of mine, even if the person who passed away wasn't. Pippin: And does that apply to Sirius's parents too? Kreacher loved them if nobody else did. How do you think Harry will feel if Sirius's legal heir decides to junk all of Sirius's possessions, wouldn't let Harry keep so much as a photograph or a pair of pants to remember him by, and jeered at him for even wanting them? That's what Sirius did to Kreacher. Viewed that way, it was an act of breathtaking cruelty, and far more spiteful than Sirius ever intended, IMO. But that's what happens if you regard someone as a servant unworthy of much interest. Alla: If Sirius' parents just passed away then yes, absolutely I would say it does apply and Kreacher should have been let to mourn them, but at least several passed since they died, so no, I don't think that Sirius is required not to say anything for Kreacher's sake. But as I said - you get no argument from me that Sirius treated Kreacher cruelly. I was not debating this point much, I was only debating what right Dumbledore had to bring Sirius' faults in front of Harry right after he died. My answer is no right whatsoever, I understand that yours is the opposite, so we will have to agree to disagree on this oen, I suppose. :-) Pippin: I don't think Dumbledore was ignoring Harry's feelings, however. I think he understood that Harry had found all this very painful to hear. Why do you think he wept? Alla: Hmmmm, maybe because he realised that he just preached to Harry about how badly Sirius treated Kreacher, while he himself let Harry live almost the life of house elf for ten years? :-) Seriously though I think he wept because of the prophecy, I doubt that he was weeping because of understanding Harry's grief about Sirius' death. I saw no signs of it in the text whatsoever. It is just my opinion and only my opinion of course. Pippin: Still, he's not as rough on Sirius as JKR is. http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=61 Sirius is very good at spouting bits of excellent personal philosophy, but he does not always live up to them. For instance, he says in "Goblet of Fire" that if you want to know what a man is really like, 'look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.' But Sirius loathes Kreacher, the house-elf he has inherited, and treats him with nothing but contempt. Alla: Yes, I know , Pippin. :-) She says some nice things about Sirius too. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 17:14:59 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:14:59 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129274 > Alla: > >> Kreacher consciously > betrayed Sirius. I think Harry had an absolute right to hate him for > a while, but nope, Dumbledore goes on and on and on. :-) > a_svirn: How did Kreacher "betray" Sirius, when he never was loyal to him in the first place and never even pretended to be? From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 17:52:13 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:52:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Kreacher and Dobby In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129275 Hickengruendler: But Dobby was treated badly by wizards, who symphasized with Voldemort. Therefore him going Dark wouldn't IMO have made much sense, since it means he would have gone to the same side as the wizards he despises. Kreacher, on the other hand, loved Mrs Black, therefore I suppose that, despite of the beheading of house-elves, he was treated reasonably well by her. Of course that's just my specualtion, but I can't see that someone has that much affection to someone, who mistreated him. The difference is just that Kreacher's master was on the good side and fighting for the right cause, while Dobby's was not. > Alla: I don't know about Sirius mom treating Kreacher well. You could be right of course, but I am not sure that the fact that he loves her proves that she was treating him well. Just look at Bella, who fanatically loves Voldie and he does not treat her well, IMO. If we knew for sure that Kreacher WAS treated well by Sirius' aprents, then I would probably concede the point that Dobby's behaviour was not that different from Kreacher. then both would betray the masters who treat them badly, but right now I still don't see clearly that Kreacher was treated well. Just my opinion. Alla, who is leaving for vacation for a week and may not be able to reply right away. From tifflblack at earthlink.net Sat May 21 17:27:17 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 10:27:17 -0700 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <20050521135021.29750.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129276 Steve: > Neville's family was attacked a year or more after Voldemort was > vaporized; just when everyone thought it was safe again. Magda: > A year or more? Really? I thought it was more like a week to ten > days after. I checked the pensieve chapter in GOF but didn't see > a specific time reference. Anyone have one? Tiffany: Hi. Try looking at the part where Harry, Ron and Hermione meet seriusSirius in the cave at Hogsmeade. I think SeriusSirius says there that Barty Crouch jr. was brought in to Azkaban about a year after he was. Tiffany From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 19:35:08 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:35:08 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129278 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > We don't know it. And I don't believe it. Also I'd like to point out > that had he freed Kreacher before his house was chosen for the > Headquarters, Kreacher wouldn't even been aware about the Order's > existing. No, but he would be aware of where Sirius was. And assuming from their behaviour, there was no love lost between them in the first place. Gerry From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 19:41:24 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 19:41:24 -0000 Subject: Learning to Fly ...sort of. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129279 I'm sure in the past, you/we have all gotten into discussions about when, where, and how people learn to Apparate. I've had a few thoughts recently that I think are important considerations in that discussion. Where and How- Many will ask HOW can people learn to Apparate at Hogwart when we have been reminded many many times that you can't Apparate at Hogwarts. Of course, the answer is simple, you step outside the front gate. We have seem many hints of this, when people arrive or leave Hogwarts, they come and go by the front gate. Example, when McNair goes for a Dementor, he is seen leaving the castle and reasonably heading for the front gate. So, assuming the weather is nice, all the teacher and students have to do is step outside the front gate (or any other gate) and they should be able to practice. Keep in mind that they will most likely start by Apparating only a few feet at a time. Then as distances increase, they can Apparate from the gate to the train station and back, then from the gate down High Street and back. Beyond that, they can Apparate short distances across the country side around Hogwarts and Hogsmead. On this point, I see no conflict between not being able to Apparate at Hogwarts, and students attending Hogwarts being taught this skill at School. Next, in an effort to understand how Apparation fits into the wizard world, we have compared learning Apparation to learning to drive a car. That's a quick and easy analogy to jump to, one I have used myself many times in past discussions, but on closer inspection, it falls far short of a workable analogy. For reference, in the USA, kids one year short of legal driving age are given a learner's permit and are taught driving at the local high school. Usually, the driver's training classes are free or require a token payment that does not reflect the true cost of the training. In the UK, there is no pre-driving age permit. One must be have reached the legal driving age of 17, then they can get a learning permit. To learn to drive, they typically must enroll in a private driving school at great cost to themselves. [As a side note: it's been a while since I did the calculations, but I vaguely recall my estimates at $1,000 to $2,000 to get a license in the UK; driver's training plus several very high assorted state license fees. ...plus a car, plus insurance, plus $5.00 a gallon gasoline.] That said, here is were driver's training falls short of an accurate analogy. In the USA, driver's training is taught at the local high school as a matter of convenience, it doesn't actually have anything to do with academics, or any state or school requirements for graduation or receiving any educational certification. So, again, no real connection between school and drivers training other than convenience. On the otherhand, Apparation very much does have to do with Magic, and learning to use and control magic is the core purpose of Hogwarts school. So, since it's clear that Apparation is a difficult and dangerous form of magic, I can't see any reason why it would not be taught at school. Yes, yes, we can speculate that parents teach their children, but given the emphasis on this being a difficult, dangerous, and potentially deadly form of magic, and that not all parents can do it, I'm don't think this is anything that can be trusted to parents. You might trust Arthur to teach Ron, but do you trust Stan Shunpike's father to teach him? Certainly, broom flying is a much closer analogy to driver's training, and broom flying is taught at Hogwarts, so why wouldn't difficult magic like Apparation be taught at Hogwarts. Few alternative explanation make any sense. I suppose one could speculate that since the 'state' licenses Apparation that they provide the training. But to that I would respond, does it make more sense to move a hundred (or whatever) students to London for training, or does it make more sense, for one training instructor to come to Hogwarts, especially consider how good this instructor must be at Apparation? So, again, by my logic, and regardless of who does the actual training, it seems reasonable for it to happen at or near Hogwarts. When- Well, logically 6th year. If we continue with the driver's training model, in the USA one year before they are old enough to get a license, you are allowed to get a driving permit. In the UK, you must reach full driving age before you can get you driving permit. From this one might conclude that by UK standard, you can't learn to Apparate until you have reach full Apparation Licensing age, but I've already demonstrated how the 'drivers training' model breaks down, so I don't think it is a fair and valid model upon which to base Apparation. Again, I come back to Apparation being a difficult form of magic, not just a means of transportation. Being difficult magic, it would logically be taught at a school for magic; Hogwarts. So far it appears that students take their Apparation License Test during the summer when they are 17. Fred and George turn 17 in April of GoF and took their test that summer a little over three months after becoming of age. So when did they learn to Apparate? I think this sets a foundation upon which a reasonable conclusion could be reached. That conclusion is that before they are age 17, they are taught to Apparate, so when they turn 17 they are ready to take the test. That means they are taught to Apparate when they are age 16. Therefore I conclude that all students who are at least 16 years of age at the time the Apparation lessons are given, will be allowed to take the classes, and obviously from what I've said, those classes will be at or near Hogwarts. Yes but... Ah yes, we all know that you must be 17 to Apparate, and age 16 is not age 17. That would seem to discredit my conclusion. But that same age limit applies to ALL MAGIC. Underage (under 17) students are not allowed to use magic outside of school, and Apparation is no different. Apparation is just another form of magic that they are not allowed to use outside school. Since they are allowed to use general magic in a controlled environment, under proper supervision, and with proper instruction before they are age 17, I see no reason why the one specific type of magic called Apparation would be excluded from those same conditions. So, I can only conclude that year 6 is the year of Apparation lesson at Hogwarts for all qualified students. And besides that... I WANT IT! I WANT IT! I WANT IT! (stomps foot, folds arms over chest, and pouts lips) Steve/bboyminn From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 20:06:11 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:06:11 -0000 Subject: Learning to Fly ...sort of. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129280 > So, I can only conclude that year 6 is the year of Apparation lesson > at Hogwarts for all qualified students. Fred and George turned 17 in April in year six. They have their apparating licence in OoP just recently. I'd say no Apparating classes before 17. Gerry From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 20:15:23 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:15:23 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see - Ganger vs Skeeter - Sirius Cleared In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chris Whittaker" wrote: > > ...edited... > > Also, I would like to see Skeeter vs. Granger rematch. And Granger > wins hands down. > > Chris (flowerchild4) bboyminn: I've have some speculations related to what you just said. I would like to see Harry and Hermione enlist Rita Skeeter's services one more time to help clear Sirius's name. If not in a court of law, then at least in the court of public opinion. Using Rita to write an article about the night in the Little Hangleton graveyard in which Voldemort returns and Harry escapes was very effective. It's amazing what you can do with the truth. I would like to have Harry tell Rita about all the circumstances he knows related to Sirius. How Peter Pettigrew is alive and guilty of the crimes Sirius was accused of, etc.... In the view of the public in general, Harry certainly has more reason than anyone to hate Sirius Black, but if Harry is absolutely convinced of his innocents, then people might be inclined to see that there is some truth to Harry's story. Harry is 16 now, and things he says are less likely to be put off as the wild imagination of a child. Harry and other's heard the true story of Sirius Black, they saw Peter Pettigrew alive and well. Further, now that Dumbledore is back in favor, his opinion on the matter would carry great weight. I think another article by Rita would be the perfect way to lay the ground work for clearing Sirius's name. Further, it might teach Rita that the truth is always far more powerful that hype, spin, or a pack of lies. It would be a good lesson for her to learn. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat May 21 20:38:17 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 20:38:17 -0000 Subject: Learning to Fly ...sort of. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > > > So, I can only conclude that year 6 is the year of Apparation lesson > > at Hogwarts for all qualified students. > Gerry: > Fred and George turned 17 in April in year six. They have their > apparating licence in OoP just recently. I'd say no Apparating > classes before 17. > > Gerry bboymin: Fred and George turned 17 in April of 'Goblet of Fire', remember they only had to age themselves a few months to be able to qualify for the Tri-Wizard's Tournement (actually to try and fool the Goblet). In the summer between GoF and OotP, they took their test, and by the time OotP started, they were Apparating all over the place. --- GoF, Am Ed, HB, Pg 189 --- "They can't do that!" said George Weasley, who had not joined the crowd moving toward the door, but was standing up and glaring at Dumbledore. "We're seventeen in April, what can't we have a shot?" - - - end quote - - - So, Fred and George are currently (GoF) age 16 and in their 6th year, as you pointed out. In April of the that School year, they turn 17, and in July of that year (most likely), they take their Apparation test. That leaves them a full school year to learn Apparation at school, or only a few weeks to try and learn it outside of school. So, again, I conclude that all student 16 years of age at the time the lessons are given will learn Apparation magic at Hogwarts. Time will tell. Steve/bboyminn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 21:32:01 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:32:01 -0000 Subject: Dangerous Contempt - Harry vs Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129283 >>bboyminn: >First, it's hardly one against three; it's more like three intelligent people (Harry/Ron/Hermione) against three self- aggrandizing idiots (Draco, Crabbe, Goyle); not to mention another 20 or so DA Club members on Harry's side.< Betsy: Except you're ignoring the fact that Draco only chose to confront Harry at Hogwarts after first making sure Harry was alone. "Harry had just descended the last marble step into the entrance hall when Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle emerged from a door on the right that Harry knew led down to the Slytherin common room. [...] Malfoy glanced around. Harry knew he was checking for signs of teachers. Then he looked back at Harry and said in a low voice, "You're dead, Potter." (OotP scholastic p.851) And you're also ignoring the fact that when Draco (and I'll assume he was the ringleader here) attempted to attack Harry outright he did so when Harry was apparently alone and out of reach of teachers and friends. "Firstly, Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, who had clearly been waiting all week for the opportunity to strike without teacher witnesses, attempted to ambush Harry halfway down the train as he made his way back from the toilet. The attack might have succeeded had it not been for the fact that they unwittingly chose to stage the attack right outside a compartment full of D.A. members, who saw what was happening throught the glass and rose as one to rush to Harry's aid." (ibid p. 864) You'll note that the students are a mix of Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws, no Gryffindors. Draco may not have realized how loyal some DA members are to Harry. (I'm saying some, because I don't want to assume.) No Slytherin attended the meetings, and the DA members tried not to call attention to themselves so I doubt they mingled too much outside the club. Draco does stage the attack away from Ron and Hermione and away from other Gryffindors. And without six other students coming to his rescue, we're told "[t]he attack might have succeeded". So it wasn't completely harmless. I imagine that both boys learned something from the train incident. Draco probably learned that Harry has more folks on his side than just his fellow Gryffindors, and *hopefully* Harry learned that he needs to pay more attention to the possibilities of an ambush. Wandering about alone has become a slightly more dangerous habit for Harry. >>bboymin: >Draco blunders, blusters, and bullies his way through life with a royal sense of entitlement and privilege. That sense of entitlement and privilege isolate and prevent him from considering the wisdom and timing of his actions. He was stupid to attack Harry on the train, but like all self-important people, the lowly commoners and ordinary people need not be taken into account when making decisions.< Betsy: Yes, Draco has been the typical bully, annoying and antagonizing Harry over hurt pride and schoolboy jealousy for several years now. But the ante has been well and truly upped and I think Harry would be incredibly foolish to just assume he could take Draco. He's never taken him before (not in a fair fight) and I don't think Harry's seen Draco well and truly angry. I'm not saying Draco's suddenly become Billy-badass, but he could put some serious hurt on Harry during a time that Harry cannot afford to be made vulnerable. Draco had the patience to wait until Harry was alone. He miscalculated the unity of the other Houses (and remember, Harry was not consistently the popular boy at Hogwarts during OotP) but he staged his attack away from any Gryffindors. I doubt he was going to *kill* Harry, but if Harry had been left in the same state Draco, Crabbe, and Goyle have been left the last two years he would have been extremely vulnerable to any Death Eater parent fetching their children from the train. The war has started and Harry needs to be careful. >>bboymin: >It's that same thinking that dooms Voldemort time and time again.< Betsy: I haven't seen evidence of this. Not Voldemort taken down by ordinary folk anyway. (Actually, the everyday members of the WW have played quite nicely into Voldemort's hands - see the sudden unpopularity of Dumbledore and Harry throughout OotP.) >>bboymin: >Harry really doesn't have to do anything, and in truth, Harry has only extremely rarely initiated action against Draco, and even then he was provoked, all Harry has to do is stand back, and Draco will self-destruct. Of course, Draco is certainly capable of doing collateral damage in the process of self-destructing.< Betsy: It's exactly that collateral damage that I'm talking about. It's like that poem about the kingdom being lost all for the want of a nail. I don't see Draco as capable of taking down the Order, but if they overlook and dismiss Draco's anger, and don't adjust their thinking a bit (they being Harry and Ron and Hermione) Draco could well throw a nice monkey wrench into the works. (And who knows what Nott, quiet, nearly invisible Nott, could do.) >>bboymin: >Draco can never defeat Harry because much like Voldemort Draco is wholly convinced of his own wisdom and absolute superiority over all. That means that any plan he has is instantly a good plan by virtue of the fact that he himself thought of it.< Betsy: Draco is a drama queen and he is arrogant and some of his plans have been silly in the extreme. But some of Draco's plans *have* worked. His songs threw off Ron's game for *months*. His badges in GoF did annoy Harry. I don't think Draco will *defeat* Harry, but he could screw things up for him but royally *if* Harry chooses to completely ignore the possible threat Draco represents. >>bboymin: >Harry is dispassionately trying to find a way out of or around any situation he is in, whereas Draco is driven forward blinded by his own arrogance and emotions; hardly seems a fair battle to me.< Betsy: The battle doesn't need to be fair. In fact it may well not be. But it is completely unwise to dismiss a wounded rival based solely on the fact that the wounds are personal. After all, Harry's reasons for taking down Voldemort are *extremely* personal (remember capslock! Harry?). And if Harry dismisses Draco too easily, he may well regret it. >>Amiable Dorsai >If it comes to a straight-up fight, Draco's toast; even he has to know that by now. The Ministry Crew--unarmed and at wandpoint--beat the Inquisitorial Squad plus an adult witch;...< Betsy: Are you talking about the final scene in Umbridge's office? Because the DA crew beat fellow students. Umbridge had left with Harry and Hermione. (Though at least one of the Slytherins was a sixth year, so the DA students did a great job and proved the worth of Harry's coaching.) >Amiable Dorsai >...Harry would easily have clobbered Malfoy and his bookends if Snape hadn't shown up, and, well, the incident on the train going home showed that it's not just Gryffindor vs. Slytherin anymore.< Betsy: The incident on the train *also* showed that Harry *can* be taken by Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle. As I quoted above, JKR tells us the attack "might have succeeded" had the DA people not interfered. Harry is a good fighter. We've seen this time and again. But we *haven't* seen Harry take Draco on by himself, so I think it's hard to judge how good Draco would be in a match. Magic seems to rely on intelligence rather than brute strength, so I think Harry is not as threatened by Crabbe and Goyle. But numbers can make a difference in a fight, and I doubt Draco will choose to take Harry on by himself. I also doubt Draco will choose to take Harry on while he's surrounded by friends. I *do* think that if Harry recognizes he's being attacked he could well stand up to the three. But if he's so dismissive of Draco, if his contempt for Draco causes him to underestimate the threat Draco does represent, Harry may not recognize the ambush until it's too late. (Honestly, I think Harry will remember the ambush on the train and act accordingly. I really don't expect to see Draco succeed in an attack against Harry in the next book. But if Harry were as dismissive of Draco as some on this list seem to think he should be, I *do* think Harry could get in trouble.) Betsy, who despite all this talk of a Harry v. Draco grudge match *still* hopes for a redeemed!Draco by series end. :) From kjones at telus.net Sat May 21 21:22:42 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 14:22:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <428FA6A2.1080301@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129284 > bboyminn: > > Well, there is much and I mean MUCH speculation on this, but the > only thing I've been able to come up with is that Snape is a > double agent. Each side thinks Snape is spying for them. KJ: While this theory is the most popular, I don't feel comfortable with it. The biggest danger for a double agent is the number of people who know about it. The fact that he was a spy was brought out in public, presumably at his own trial, and again at the trial of the other DE. There would have been people there who were Voldemort supporters who would have passed this info on to the surviving and free DE, Lucius Malfoy being one. Then there is the fact that Snape has remained with Dumbledore for the past years while Voldemort was Vapormort. This could have been the reason that Voldemort hiding in Quirrel did not identify himself to Snape at Hogwarts. Snape was obviously fighting against Quirrel, and was defending the Stone for Dumbledore. I don't believe this could possibly be explained later by saying that he was trying to save the Stone for Voldemort's return, when most people thought he was destroyed. Snape was too obviously loyal to Dumbledore. Dumbledore has some good reason to trust Snape and does so whole-heartedly. Whatever this reason is, it is likely that Voldemort is aware of it. A reason strong enough or life-changing enough to cause an abrupt change of loyalty is apt to be known, if not understood, by a lot of people. Karkaroff did not seem to mind that Snape knew that he wanted to escape from Voldemort. He did not seem to fear that Snape would punish him for his betrayal of the other DE. He let Snape know that he was running. If he thought for a minute that Snape was loyal, he might well have expected that Snape would kill him. It would have been one of the few ways that Snape could have used to demonstrate to Voldemort that he was loyal, if somewhat confused. Snape may have offered to make his excuses to Dumbledore, rather than Voldemort. It is more likely that Malfoy is pretending to trust Snape in order to acquire information from him about Dumbledore than it is to believe that Malfoy is convinced that Snape is a loyal fellow DE. Malfoy, being in the Ministry, would have access to all trial material and I would think it fairly obvious how truthful the information was that Snape provided when he actually was spying. Snape would have a Hell of a time trying to convince anybody that he was a double agent if too much accurate information was credited to him. Voldemort is not portrayed as an idiot. Snape may or may not have been in the first Order. One doesn't expect spies to figure in group photographs. I think it is interesting, though, that Molly insists on his being addressed with respect. In OOTP, his arrival at Grimmauld Place was described as being an exciting event. Everyone crowded around him, asking questions. There were excited whispers. Obviously, none of the Order fears or distrusts Snape. We are given to believe that Moody does, but it is not clear whether that is because Crouch hated Snape as a spy, or because he was acting in a way that he knew Moody would really act. We haven't seen a true Moody reaction to Snape. It may be that the reason Snape backed off from the confrontation with Moody in GoF is because he felt that there was something wrong in Moody's treatment of him. I can't think of any reason that would explain his showing his Dark Mark to the Minister if he was still acting as a spy. The Minister obviously can't be trusted. He did not show it as a demonstration that he had it. He showed it to demonstrate that it was live. Obviously he had reason to believe that the Minister already knew that he had the mark. Could it be that Snape took the mark specifically to become a spy? Could it be that everyone in the Ministry knows of Snape's history as a spy, just as they all know that Malfoy claimed to have been placed under Imperius? I don't recall reading anywhere in the books that Snape has left Hogwarts other than to go to Grimmauld Place. This would allow a safe apparation from one secure area to another safe area. It could well be that Snape is well aware of his uncertain life expectancy as "the one who has left me forever." We know that Dumbledore set Snape a task, but we don't know what that is. We know that Snape told Harry that his job was to know what Voldemort was saying to his Deatheaters, but he did it with a "look of satisfaction" and his eyes "glinting." I believe that this is an indication that there is something being hidden with regard to this statement. There seem to be many ways of spying or gaining access to places in the WW than in the Muggle world. These are a few of the things that bother me, logically speaking, about the spy-double- spy theory. Feel free to refute or explain these oddities, but please don't expect me to believe that Snape just explained everything away and Voldemort just believed him. He seemed to know quite well what the other DE were doing in his absence. Sorry for the long post. KJ From ginny343 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 21:49:34 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:49:34 -0000 Subject: Learning to Fly ...sort of. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > When- > > So, I can only conclude that year 6 is the year of Apparation > lesson at Hogwarts for all qualified students. This should be interesting to see how it pans out. I just have a few thoughts on this. First, if Hermione is going to be 17 around the time school starts, then theoretically she should be able to take the Apparation test then. BUT, I don't remember hearing anything about her taking lessons at school last year AND I don't think her muggle parents are very qualified to teach her. It also seems to me that this is something that should take time to learn. Students at Hogwarts take Transfiguration for years, surely something like Apparation takes more than a few months to learn? It does seem logical that this is something that would be taught at school. That said, I have one doubt (well, maybe more, but this is one I want to post). In GOF - at the beginning - Percy, Charlie, and Bill are all Apparated to the Quidditch World Cup. Fred and George complained, "Why can't we Apparate too?" And they are told it's because they are not of age and haven't passed their tests. They were not reminded they didn't know how, or that they would soon be learning. (And this was the summer before their 6th year.) Could they have already learned how? By the way, I don't know when Percy's birthday is, but he also passed his test in the summer. Maybe Apparation is a year-long class and you have to make an appointment and test during the summer? Linda From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat May 21 22:07:04 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 22:07:04 -0000 Subject: Guardian Dumbledore (was: Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129286 >>Betsy >You're exaggerating a bit about Harry's and Hermione's danger in PoA. (Some movie contamination perhaps?).< >>Alla: >Nope, no movie contamination , but thank you for asking. :-)< >>Betsy: >Harry and Hermione were in very little danger that night, and I believe Dumbledore realized what had already been accomplished by time-traveling students. All that was left was freeing Sirius. Hardly a dangerous task when you've got a hippogriff on hand.< >>Alla: >Um, I really don't want to get into mechanics of Time travel posting, but no, I think that Harry and Hermione were in a great deal of danger . Remember? >"you must not be seen. Miss Granger, you know the law - you know what is at stake... You - must- not-be -seen" - PoA, p.393.< Betsy: Ah, you were talking about the danger of time travel. I thought you were talking about the danger of werewolves, hence the question about movie contamination. But remember, Hermione has been time traveling for the entire school year, with permission from the Ministry. It can't be *that* dangerous if the government is willing to allow a third year student a Time-Turner. Plus, Hermione is well aware of the dangers of being seen. She hints to Harry about what terrible things can occur when time travelers are spotted. (I imagine the dangers were driven home to her before McGonagall handed over the Time-Turner.) I think the reason Dumbledore stresses that Harry and Hermione must not be seen is that he knew what temptations they'd face. Harry especially would be tempted to run out and grab Pettigrew, and Dumbledore reiterates to Hermione that the rules of time travel *must* be followed. And Hermione does make sure Harry follows the rules. Again, I don't see evidence of Harry and Hermione facing *mortal* danger. >> Betsy: >And since you've conceded that Dumbledore does not equal God hopefully you'll cut him a break here. < >>Alla: >Actually, when I concede the point, I clearly state so. I did nothing of the sort here. :-) >I said that Dumbledore was not G-d, but this point was not debated, so there was nothing to concede, IMO.< Betsy: Eek, I was joking with the "concedes" comment (hence the ). Sorry that didn't come across. My main point was in GoF, Dumbledore's biggest mistake is trusting fake!Moody, but since everyone was fooled by fake!Moody hopefully you'll give him a bit of a pass there. Betsy From hhbarmaid at gmail.com Sat May 21 22:37:26 2005 From: hhbarmaid at gmail.com (hogsheadbarmaid) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 22:37:26 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129287 OK, I will finally give in and make some predictions. ... Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? It is a bit tricky to get who will die in 6 and who in 7 -- but -- I believe Dumbledore will leave this particular plane of existence in book 6 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy,"describe more.) Someone who lived at the time of the founders and plays into the story of the founding of Hogwarts, but is not one of the founders themselves. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) One or both of Lily and Petunia's parents was, at some point, imprisoned in Azkaban 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicis 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? In HBP Harry will not have any romantic relationships. He may have a date or two... but that is not a relationship. However, his friendships with Luna and Ginny will become much deeper 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? There will not be one... during HBP the ministry will be in a state of disarray... Percy will hold some sort of temporary leadership position ? "Interim Minister" or some such title ? very briefly. Lesser department heads will have to keep their own sphere of influence running to the best of their abilities. In book 7 there will be a complete recording of the Wizarding Government. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is the pensive we have already seen. This is not "Dumbledore's" pensive however, but it is "the headmaster's" pensive which contains memories going all the way back to the founders. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 7 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Rather than S.P.E.W. playing a smaller role in HBP, as many have hoped, it will play a larger role. Hermione will wise up and start bringing the House Elves themselves into the organization and she will see that some of her ideas have been misguided. As a result of this focus on S.P.E.W. there will be a period of time when she is estranged from Ron and Harry. 2. There will be a split within the Centaurs. Some will stay firm in the old ways and stay out of the affairs of the wizarding world. Others, however, will join with Firenze and align themselves with Dumbledore. Those who decide to join the battle will move out of the forest and onto the grounds of Hogwarts. 3. The Trio or The Six will find the graveyard on Hogwarts grounds. This discovery will force Dumbledore to reveal yet another secret he has been keeping from Harry. 4. We will see Snape cry. 5. Petunia will accept her magical heritage. As a result Vernon will turn her and Harry out of the house, vowing to kill them if they ever return. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Sun May 22 00:01:11 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 00:01:11 -0000 Subject: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: <428FA6A2.1080301@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > bboyminn: > > > > Well, there is much and I mean MUCH speculation on this, but the > > only thing I've been able to come up with is that Snape is a > > double agent. Each side thinks Snape is spying for them. > > KJ: > > While this theory is the most popular, I don't feel comfortable > with it. The biggest danger for a double agent is the number of people who know about it. The fact that he was a spy was brought out in public, presumably at his own trial, and again at the trial of the other DE. There would have been people there who were Voldemort supporters who would have passed this info on to the surviving and free DE, Lucius Malfoy being one. Carol responds: Snape apparently didn't have a trial or even a public hearing. The charges against him were dismissed. The only people we know of who knew that the charges had even been made were Dumbledore, Crouch Sr., and Alastor Moody. Unlike Malfoy, Nott, Avery, Macnair, et al., all of whom got off on a plea of being under an Imperius Curse, Snape's name was not published in the Daily Prophet. His circumstances were different. His work as a spy and his personal safety, even his life, depended on maintaining secrecy. At first glance it may appear that Karkaroff's hearing changed all that. He testifies in front of 200 people that Snape is a Death Eater. Dumbledore is forced to come forward and indicate that Snape *was* a Death Eater, but that he "is now no more a Death Eater than I am" and that *before* Voldemort's fall, he "returned to our side" and spied on the Death Eaters "at great personal risk." This statement is not made in public; it is apparently a closed hearing before the Wizengamot. Rita Skeeter certainly is not present as she was for Ludo Bagman's hearing. Neither are any Death Eaters. This is MoM business, and it has probably been kept hush-hush for the sake of Karkaroff, whose name also was not on the list in the Daily Prophet. We don't know exactly what happens next because Harry leaves the Pensieve, but it seems likely that the Wizengamot members have been sworn to silence in advance regarding Karkaroff's testimony. There is no evidence (so far) that the DEs know about Snape's work as a spy, or whatever he is doing for the Order. (That may well change because of Kreacher or the events at the DoM in HBP; if Voldemort finds out that Snape sent the Order members to save Harry, Snape will be in great danger.) It's equally clear that the parents of the Hogwarts students (other than those of certain Slytherins who think Snape is still a Death Eater) don't know that their children are being taught by a former DE. Carol, who is being chattered to by an eleven-year-old and hopes this post is coherent! From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun May 22 00:05:21 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 00:05:21 -0000 Subject: Filk: That Potion Master's Fine Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129289 To the tune of "Love Potion #9" by the Searchers. For an off-list request that I have been sitting on far too long. To Tonks_op. The challenge was set for me: write a Sexy!Snape filk. Easy enough, I thought. The challenge continued: a la Alan Rickman. Now we hit a snagging point. Rickman is indeed a hottie, but my Sexy!Snape came off the pages themselves. But, Rickman or canon, all the Snape fangirls agree: That potion master's fine. That Potion Master's Fine: There's a professor in the Potter books. Only in movies does he have good looks. Though there are folks who just wish he would resign, The Snape Fangirls agree that (sigh) that potion master's fine. Some scour the books to see what makes him tick. Some dash to theatres to see each flick. Each says to herself "ooh, I want to make him mine". And they all agree that (sigh) that potion master's fine. They say he's a jerk and a git and a dink, But there's something about him that just tickles us pink. He makes us all react like we've had too much to drink. We raise our nose, and close our eyes to what they think. His silky voice just fills us with delight. His snarky attitude fits him just right. When he swishes his cloak, it is borderline divine. Concensus of the fangirls: (sigh) That potion master's fine. (repeat) Ginger, who loves Snape for his caustic wit. From kking0731 at gmail.com Sun May 22 01:02:38 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 01:02:38 -0000 Subject: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: <428FA6A2.1080301@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129290 KJ: While this theory is the most popular, I don't feel comfortable with it. The biggest danger for a double agent is the number of people who know about it. The fact that he was a spy was brought out in public, presumably at his own trial, and again at the trial of the other DE. There would have been people there who were Voldemort supporters who would have passed this info on to the surviving and free DE, Lucius Malfoy being one. >snipped good examples< We know that Dumbledore set Snape a task, but we don't know what that is. We know that Snape told Harry that his job was to know what Voldemort was saying to his Deatheaters, but he did it with a "look of satisfaction" and his eyes "glinting." I believe that this is an indication that there is something being hidden with regard to this statement. There seem to be many ways of spying or gaining access to places in the WW than in the Muggle world. Snow: Loved this part! This is exactly the part that I picked up on. There are so many possibilities of how Snape spied on Voldemort but for me the quote that you cited tells me that Snape spied on Voldemort in a completely obscure manner. Snape may have spied on him through impersonating another or Snape could be an animagus or a half-breed that is part vampire or (my favorite) he could have spied on Voldemort through Legilemency every time he looked into Harry's eyes, all the time appearing to beret Harry for some fabricated misfit performance of Harry's just so he could stare at Harry and see how much further Voldemort had penetrated into Harry's mind. There are so many possibilities but I am with you, I don't think that Snape is playing one side against the other; he is not a double agent. I still like my gut feeling that the life debt to James was repaid by Snape because Snape informed Dumbledore of the circumstances leading up to Godric's Hollow BUT Snape felt that he hadn't really been credited because James had died even though his attempt at valor was made. Snape was ever so exited when he caught Sirius (and Lupin, a plus) in the Shrieking Shack with the trio but even after all his efforts Snape did not earn the honor that he may have felt he needed to ensure the payment of the life debt he owed to James. I really think this is why Snape changed sides, because of the life debt, and I think that this is the reason why Dumbledore feels he can count on Snape; Snape doesn't feel he has repaid his debt, yet. I can almost hear Dumbledore snicker when he speaks of Snape's disappointment in not receiving the Order of Merlin. KJ: Sorry for the long post. Snow: Have you seen the old Elkins posts? Don't be sorry for a long post, once upon a time it was frowned upon if your post was not of adequate length, it was the opposite apology, sorry for the short post. :-) Great post! Snow From anurim at yahoo.com Sat May 21 23:33:24 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:33:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050521233324.93989.qmail@web32613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129291 --- Lindsay!! wrote: > to err is human...I feel he isn't someone who has > commited or > represents a cardinal sin (which means damnation if > one is not absolved > of it) as just a person with flaws like anyone else. I could be wrong, but I cannot see Jo as somebody who believes in damnation. She is not afraid to pass judgement, this is correct, and not shy of formulating clean-cut principles, but on the other hand, she is too capable of seeing that every truth has shades, and seems to believe in people too much to condemn mostly nice people to damnation because they have flaws. I think that what she is doing is closer to warning us how easy and almost unnoticeable it is to slip away from the right path and what disastrous consequences it can have for ourselves and for other people in the long term. Lupin was definitely careless in not warning at least Dumbledore about the secret path from Hogsmeade to Hogwarts, even if he would have had to come clean about his friends being animagi and about doubting Sirius' guilt, and also in not taking his potion, which is not, I assume, a time-consuming task. I understand that Lupin was far too loyal to give out his friends' secrets, and I can also see loyalty becoming carelessness. There is nothing wrong to it, and we don't have to despise Lupin for it, only admire him, but take notice. --- pippin_999 wrote: > Pippin: > Agreed. And on that basis I nominate OOP. It ties > in with the > unconscious troll of the fifth obstacle guarding the > Stone, and > with the lethargy Harry manifests at the Dursleys. I can see your point, and you are perhaps right (although I see sloth as accompanying spirituality and fury assigned to stupidity, rather than the other way round). This might well be the end of ANTIVIRUS: perhaps there are examples of all sins in each book (as there undoubtely are). I still think each book has a separate theme, and I still cannot equate Dementors with wrath. They are too cold, too overpowering for it. Besides, Harry is furious more than anything else in OotP, and anger leads to many mistakes, except they cannot be attributed to sloth, but to losing, together with one's temper, the capacity of clear, logical, methodical thinking. Chys writes: > I thought of Gluttany and Unicorn Blood. Would that > be in reference to > the theme? Perhaps, but killing an unicorn seems a crime too ugly to attribute it only to gluttony. Wouldn't any blood taste more or less the same? But in a sense you are right, it is possible that former sins come to haunt us, and that Voldemort's crimes from Book 1 will help to damn him in Book 6. Magda writes: > I don't believe in ESE!Lupin Neither do I. I have the utmost respect and admiration for Lupin. He is, from my point of view, one of the nicest characters in the books: loyal, competent, empathic, tolerant, extremely brave, kind - I could go on for ever talking about his qualities. Which doesn't mean that he is perfect. Nobody is perfect. I think it is much easier to draw attention to certain mistakes when you attribute them to the good guys. The bad guys are bad anyway, it is almost impossible to look at their sins separately (it doesn't mean that there are not reasons for them being bad, only that they choose to use their trauma in the wrong way, letting it bring destruction rather than learning from it). Shanoah Alkire writes: > It's also worth mentioning that Sloth wasn't always > one of the seven > sins. It used to be Tristia, translated as either > sadness or despair. > The more I think about it, I think JKR used both as > themes in PoA. Yes, and I do think Lupin lets his fate shape him rather than the other way round. It is so easy to sin through despait when affected by Dementors, which is one of the reasons why I don't believe in damnation. Nobody should be condemned for having to deal with far more hardship than most people, and making an approximate job out of it. On the contrary. Still, sloth, as well as letting yourself overwhelmed by despair, are undoubtely able to put a person through bad experiences (hell on earth). Who knows, perhaps Sirius' death will help more than one character conquer their weaknesses. The other examples you mentioned are excellent and make me believe more in the theory being correct. A big thank you to everybody who has contributed such nice, insightful, creative ideas to ANTIVIRUS - I am waiting for more. Mira __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From anurim at yahoo.com Sat May 21 22:58:59 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's hypocrisy was Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050521225859.70324.qmail@web32610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129292 --- pippin_999 wrote: > I don't think Dumbledore was ignoring Harry's > feelings, however. > I think he understood that Harry had found all this > very > painful to hear. Why do you think he wept? > . [...] > Voldemort is not the cause of the rot that permeates > the wizarding world. He is a symptom. The rot is in > the heart of > every wizard who thinks he can lord it over other > beings, whether > it is purebloods over muggleborns, or humans over > House Elves. > > Harry has never been so contemptuous of anyone, > but then he's > never been treated as the Chosen One. Very soon > now, Neville will be > wondering what it would be like to be the king. If > contempt for > lowlier creatures can destroy even as kind and > generous a man as > Sirius was, what might it do to Harry? > > I don't think Dumbledore's warning is before time. I couldn't agree more. I've always thought that Voldemort can be vanquished if and only if all wizards, perhaps Harry included, would be willing to purge themselves of Voldemort's spirit, to give up that part of themselves that feeds Voldemort by, at least, innocently using his methods. If and only if wizards will be finally pure enough to not be afraid to utter Voldemort's name would the embodiment of evil be finally defeated. But of course this is too complicated for the story, it is just a (quite useless) thought. As for Dumbledore's words to Harry, I think that grief is so hard to bear because it disturbs our sense of order, of purpose. If we understand why things happen, they hurt us much less. It takes much courage and willingless to suffer to face up the real reasons, or that they might not exist; this is why it is so comfortable to pass blame on somebody else and replace grief with hate. If Harry would have gone home without Dumbledore's explanations, he would have tried to make sense of thing in his own way, and almost certainly come to consider Kreacher guilty, hate him and look for revenge. It is not far from here to starting to like Dobby less, because Dobby reminds him of Kreacher, because in order to be an effective substitute for grief, hate needs somebody so feed it continously. How long would have been before Harry started to abuse elves himself? How long before an abused elf would have caused Harry's downfall? Then somebody else would have suffered and needed to replace grief with hate, then another prejudice would have been born, another revenge, and so on, never to stop. Somebody has to break this chain, and Dumbledore is right, I think, in believing that Harry is strong enough to understand and bear the real circumstances of Sirius' death and not seek revenge. It is one of the most difficult things in the world to be able to understand the reasons that make people be hostile, to understand that almost everything is reaction and not bad will, but Harry has proven able to do it, and I think Dumbledore is right to help him understand. In the long term I think Harry will benefit from Dumbledore not sparing him the truth. Mira __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From anurim at yahoo.com Sat May 21 23:54:42 2005 From: anurim at yahoo.com (Mira) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 16:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things you'd like to see in HBP In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050521235443.49920.qmail@web32604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129293 Everything Jo will put in there. And much more. For example, I'd like to see: - more about the wizarding culture - perhaps a wedding, a few more parties, more customs, more spells, this sort of thing - fears and doubts of 'bad' guys, for instance Dudley and Draco - Dudley and Draco fighting each other, with Dudley winning and Draco becoming afraid of muggles (as Dudley is already afraid of wizards) - a little more about Petunia - much more of Lupin - Hermione declaring her feelings for Harry (although I know the poor girl will be rejected and I am very sorry for her) - Hermione moving on from Harry and having a nice romance with Fred and/or George - the pathetic downfall of DE Fudge - Ron growing up a little, even through mistake and (minor) sacrifice - Neville improving endlessly, triumphing over Snape, revolting, then coming to accept his fate - and improve the fate of others, his parents included - Snape triumphing over Harry - and bitterly regretting it - Snape's history - why Voldemort is so evil (as Jo promised will tell us) - more about what happened after Harry vanished Voldemort, with all characters, including Sirius - some of the protections Voldemort took against death - more about Bill, Charles and wizards their age, how they coped with living under Voldemort's reign as children - a big secret - a bit more about why Dumbledore is such a great wizard, and how he watches Harry closer than anybody can imagine - the twins going through a minor crisis about dealing with their sudden fortune - Percy proving he is not the asshole he seems to be - and being a major asshole about it - Peter paying his debt to Harry and finally showing why he was sorted in Gryffindor - a lot more about teachers and the other students - seeing the Centaurs pay for their pride - though it might not happen until last book - Hermione acting as a teenager - Ginny making all (male) students fall in love with her and showing a symbolic middle finger to Voldemort - Molly becoming DADA teacher (I know it won't happen, but I'd love to) - Molly and McGo engaged in a very mature catfight - Lockhart showing a bit of unexpected depth (now he is out of his mind, he can afford it) - a few fond (for a change) memories of the Marauders - more about Alice and Frank - more about Luna and her father - more about the ghosts - more about everything (talk about gluttony!) Mira __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com Sun May 22 00:15:28 2005 From: mohalagirl25 at yahoo.com (Amy Klein) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 17:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050522001528.86806.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129294 At first glance it may appear that Karkaroff's hearing changed all that. He testifies in front of 200 people that Snape is a Death Eater. Dumbledore is forced to come forward and indicate that Snape *was* a Death Eater, but that he "is now no more a Death Eater than I am" and that *before* Voldemort's fall, he "returned to our side" and spied on the Death Eaters "at great personal risk." This statement is not made in public; it is apparently a closed hearing before the Wizengamot. Rita Skeeter certainly is not present as she was for Ludo Bagman's hearing. Neither are any Death Eaters. I have a question though. There were as we discovered MoM people who are death eaters. In OoTP we discovered that Avery was an unspeakable. Whose to say that there aren't any on the Wizengamot that aren't DE's? And there was also Rookwood, who almost got Ludo in Azkaban for passing info. However, you would think that LV would know about Snape being a spy from people telling him. If he does know then he's not saying anything or is he playing with Snape? Is LV using Snape as a spy for LV and asked him to do this before the attack on the Potter's knowing ahead of time that it might turn bad? Just a few things to ponder. Mind still twirling with questions, Amy --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Use Yahoo! to plan a weekend, have fun online & more. Check it out! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tifflblack at earthlink.net Sat May 21 22:16:58 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (tiffany black) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 15:16:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129295 a_svirn: >> It is also the man who is supposed to be a "superb Ocllumence". >> Well, he has to be, because whenever his loyalties lie, he is >> successfully deceiving at least one of the two most powerful >> wizards in the Potterverse (if not both of them). And doesn't the >> first requirement for Occlumency is the ability to detach oneself >> from one's emotions? If Snape is capable to achieve this with LV, >> surely he can handle Harry? And if he can't it makes one really >> wonder about his motivations. >> Personally, I think that he perfectly able to "overcome his >> emotions" in an emergency and that he staged the whole episode >> with the Pensieve. SSSusan: > I'm not trying to *disagree* with you about the Pensieve scene; I'm > just genuinely curious what you make of our Potions Master in the > PoA scene and whether you think he was acting or that it was a true > exception to his being able to control his emotions. You make a > good point that Snape has told us a successful Occlumens must be > able to control his emotions, and, well, Snape *is* still alive, > so he must be able to do that at times. Tiffany: Hi. Maybe the thing is that Snape just doesn't react to Voldemort in the same way he reacts to Harry. maybe, because neither Tom Riddle or his father ever picked on Snape in school, and because Voldemort just doesn't matter to Snape in the same way Harry does, Snape finds it easier to cut off his own emotions around Voldemort. Maybe Snape's bad temper was also supposed to give Harry a taste of what he might be up against in the 'real world". If he could master his own emotions around a hostile Snape then maybe he could master his emotions around a really hostile Voldemort. Tiffany From tifflblack at earthlink.net Sun May 22 01:12:28 2005 From: tifflblack at earthlink.net (Tiffany Black) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 18:12:28 -0700 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129296 Ok. Here are mine. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Peter Pettigrew. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy,"describe more.) Godrick Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She has none. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I think it's the mcLaughan person. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve, but not Dumbledore's. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 8 Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry will have to save Professor Snape from Voldemort. Professor Snape may or may not be grateful. 2. Professor Trelawney will make another prophecy. 3. There will be a photograph of Sirius in that broken mirror in Harry's trunk that will help him. 4. Harry leaves Privet Drive to have a big sixteenth birthday bash with the weasleys and Hermione. 5. Sirius will finally get his name cleared at the end of the book. Tiffany From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 22 03:38:09 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 03:38:09 -0000 Subject: Snape'sprog/Pomona/TransferredPowers/Names/Post Owls/Scots/Myrtle/HouseElves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129297 Potioncat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128930 : << I mean, I know each and everyone of us has wondered about Snape and Luna....No, really, has anyone ever heard this rumor before? >> While she DIDN'T say anything about whether Luna is related to Ollivander by their shared silver eyes and eccentricity. Alla wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/128932 : << I think I will vote for Victor Krum as Snape's son for now. :-) >> Viktor was 18 during the QWC (according to Ron) so he was 18 to 19 during the rest of GoF, while Harry was 14 in GoF. Severus and James are the same age. The Lexicon says James and Severus was born in 1960, there 20 when Harry was born, therefore 15 to 16 when Viktor was born, therefore still at Hogwarts. Are you suggesting an unusually pleasant summer holiday in Bulgaria? KarenTheUnicorn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128989 : << So Sprout's first name is...isan't that a city? >> Yes, but the city Pomona is named after Pomona the Roman goddess of apples, and thus moderately relevant to Herbology. I STILL say her husband's name is Basil and their daughters are Acacia and Jacaranda. Stephanie musicofsilence wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129038 : << "to give him tools no other wizard possessed ? the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind." JKR implies that the *only* powers which Voldemort has transferred to Harry are his scar and the mental link. >> I think she only meant that the scar and mental link are the only powers that are unique to Harry, not that they are the only powers he got from Voldemort. Tonks_op wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129089 : << Why does DD have so many names? Does he have one for each of his many incarnations?? >> Albus Wulfric Brian Percival Dumbledore. The usual reason why a person has so many given names is either that the parents had a lot of people they wanted to name the child after, or that the person had a lot of godparents and each godparent gave one name. Wherr009 wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129121 : << If all this is true about owls (and I'm not saying it isn't) then why didn't the MoM just "write a letter" to Sirius and follow the owl to find out where he was? >> That's one of JKR's FAQs: http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/faq_view.cfm?id=18 : << Q: In 'Prisoner of Azkaban', why couldn't the Ministry of Magic have sent Sirius an owl, and then followed it, to find him? A: Just as wizards can make buildings unplottable, they can also make themselves untraceable. Voldemort would have been found long ago if it had been as simple as sending him an owl! >> Personally, I prefer MY theory that post owls fly via another dimension, a dimension which only they can enter, with the result that they cannot be followed. Altho' the reason they fly in it is not to avoid pursuit but because it is a dimension in which they can see their destination even if he is Unplottable or hidden by Fidelius. After all, to me if Sirius was Unplottable, an Auror in Hogsmeade who saw a big white Snowy Owl swoop down on the same hillside day after day and walked out onto that hillside wouldn't have been able to find Sirius any better than an Auror in London who tried to follow an owl, and it wouldn't have been necessary to hurt Hedwig's feelings by using school owls instead Hi, Petra http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129123 : the Ministry CAN owl a letter to Sirius, they just can't follow the owl. Mira wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforG rownups/message/129194 : << Just to add that McGo is the only character with a Scottish name in the books >> Death Eater Macnair the executioner? Ernie Macmillan from Dufflepuff? IIRC there are two MacDougal girls, Morag in Harry's year and Natalie in the group Sorted during GoF ... Steve bboyminn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129231 : << -I want what ever is holding Moaning Myrtle to an earthly life to be resolved so she can move on to the next life and rest in peace; poor girl just breaks my heart. >> This is a forbidden "I agree" post. Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129232 : << Harry knew that Kreacher didn't wish him or Sirius well, he knew as well as JKR that no magic is foolproof, yet it never dawned on him that the House Elf might be lying. >> I don't believe that is particularly an example of Harry disrespecting House Elves. At the same time, it never dawned on him and he rejected Hermione's suggestions that the Ministry of Magic building, especially during the work day, would not be a very sensible place for Voldemort to torture Sirius. He valued all information by whether it agreed with his frightening vision. Hickengruendler wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129252 : << Therefore I really don't think Dobby's behaviour was all that different. The difference is just that Kreacher's master was on the good side and fighting for the right cause, while Dobby's was not. >> This is another forbidden "I agree" post. And another parallelism is between the two traitors, Snape and Pettigrew. Both betrayed the side they were on, resulting in the deaths of their friends (okay, we don't KNOW that it was Snape's information that caused his friend Rosier and Wilkes to be killed while resisting arrest by Aurors); the difference is that one's betrayal served bad guys and the other's served good guys. Amiable Dorsai asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129253 : << What did you do during the war, Minnie? What did you do for 11 more years before you started teaching? And what did you teach before Dumbledore gave up the Transfiguration post? >> Presumably much of the time between her NEWTs and her teaching job was spent earning more and more of Transfiguration and other magic, whether by apprenticeship, in some kind of Transfiguration school (which wouldn't be part of a university only because JKR said there is no wizarding university), or by self-study. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 22 04:05:31 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 04:05:31 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129298 Lusting after Snape Alla has Elkins, Potioncat has Prophyria. I've found a post from 2002, but first, an introduction: In one of her interviews, JKR says something along the line of "Who could love Snape?" Kneasy believed the appeal for Snape was that Alan Rickman portrayed him in the medium that must not be named. I have to admit anyone Alan Rickman portrayed would be appealing to me.Even a heart surgeon OK, wrong web site The question has come up many times. Snape is not described in appealing ways, yet he has a large fan base. What is his appeal? Back in 2002 Prophyria took on the challenge of "why is Snape so appealing to so many women?". Here is the post #47913: Long ago, back on 10/3 (#44915), GulPlum noted that a preponderance of Snape's (and Sirius's and Lupin's) fans were female. He wondered "whether it's because men generally seem not to go beyond the obvious, the broad strokes, while women seem to be more interested in hints and background characters?" Then he wondered " Or are women principally going for characters who might conform to or fulfill their sexual fantasies?" He remarked: > I'm honestly curious about what people's views on the above are and why (beyond the usual literary reasons) we feel attracted to the characters who appeal to us. I wanted to answer this long ago but didn't have time, and since today it came up in an offlist discussion and I *do* have a bit of time, I thought I'd answer it now. I shall necessarily generalize about gender roles from my own perspective in the paragraphs below; if you disagree with me please argue your own view but please don't take offense where there is none intended. For starters, my whole reply is predicated on the belief that, very often, people prefer characters with whom they identify. This can be positive or negative; we like characters who embody the characteristics we wish to have, and we feel deep empathy for characters who embody our own faults.Well, I'm sure some people *hate* characters who embody their own faults,but I for one love them quite pathetically, and I know I'm not alone. I would also like to add, re GulPlum's question about sexual fantasies,that infatuation with literary characters has *nothing to do* with sexual attraction in its simplest sense. These characters have no physical presence; they do not infect us with their pheromones or put the moves on us. They are only as attractive as we imagine them. Our impression of them is rooted purely in language, which means it is symbolic and analyzable.Otherwise, we'd all have hopeless crushes on Gilderoy Lockhart, which does not seem to be the case. :-) Snape, in particular, *is supposed to be ugly, * so there must be something *else* going on with his legion of female crushers for them to feel as they do. The following is only one theory among many for Snape's appeal, but I think it's worth giving a shot: Snape is the cast-off animus of an individual who has been socialized as female. OK, plain English: Snape appeals to some women because he is exactly what a woman cannot be if she is to be recognized as "feminine" in our society. Let's consider Snape's depiction in the books. We know from some offhand remarks that Snape is considered brilliant in his field: Lupin's explanation of how difficult Wolfsbane Potion is to brew, Sirius's admission that Snape knew more curses as a child, etc. We also get the impression he's brilliant from his poetic, mannered speech, his pride in his craft and, via Real Life contamination, he reminds us of that type of professor who would much rather be researching than teaching. So, he strikes me as being the Potterverse equivalent of a brilliant scientist. However, what is is we typically see Snape doing? He gets to teach 11 year olds Boil-Curing Potion *over and over and over.* He has to herd them from class to class when there is some danger in the castle. He has to keep them in line and break up fights. He has to babysit. He has to make sure they get medical treatment when they injure themselves, and protect them from their own recklessness. And, in what I think is one of the series' moments of pure comic genius, Snape has to play hyper-conscientious nursemaid to Lupin, someone he'd just as soon poison. Now, being a grade school teacher, a caretaker and a nurse are all noble professions, but do they suit Snape's personality? No, they require patience, compassion, empathy and affection, all qualities he notably lacks. He is deeply unsuited for his job. Snape appears to despise little children and resents being stuck 'taking care of' people who need extra attention like Lupin, Harry or Neville. He doesn't seem to have a nurturing bone in his body. But he is protective and dutiful, and his job duties wrench appropriate behavior out of his as best as he can manage (which often isn't very well). So my argument states that Snape appeals to *some* women who feel frustrated that society, their families, or life in general obliges them into a caretaker role when they privately feel that they are better suited for more intellectual work. Some of these women might reject caretaker roles for themselves, and others might be *extremely dutiful* mothers,teachers and nurses who simply feel the pressure to be compassionate and tender-hearted all the time. It's a heavy burden for anyone not 100% sweetness and light in the first place. But what if women actually acted like Snape! It's hardly an option for any of us who care about what our loved ones think of us. (If only the world were as accepting as Dumbledore! ) So Snape is deliciously enjoyable because, as a literary character, he can get away with all the nastiness he wants and we can enjoy it vicariously without actually hurting anyone in the Real World. So I think the reason that the vast majority of Snape's admirers are female is that he represents the vindictive, resentful flipside of the "female" role that is foreclosed to real women who feel obliged to appear "feminine" by typical cultural standards. I think this explains why some of Snape's fans are infatuated straight women, but also why some of his fans are lesbians. I also think this explains why some female readers *despise* Snape, because he constitutes an absolute scandal for someone entrusted with the role of rearing young people. (It's not a subject women typically feel neutral about.) And lastly, I think this explains why so few (to my knowledge) of Snape's fans are gay men, because (I imagine) they have a whole ton of other gender-role obligations to contend with,which have nothing to do with Snape's character. Same probably goes for straight men. :-) Again, that's only one theory among many possible for why people like his character, and it need not apply to absolutely everyone. Let me know what you think. ~Porphyria Potioncat again: I have to admit, having a son about the age of Harry, I love the scene when Snape throws/magicks the jar of cockroaches at Harry. I'd love to do that too! Of course I wouldn't throw anything at my own son after all, I'd be the one to clean up all those cockroaches but it does offer a certain sense of satisfaction. So, I'll ask the same question Porphyria asked: What do you think? Potioncat: who will delete this post if it appears with odd symbols due to some e-interference. From tmar78 at yahoo.com Sun May 22 04:58:25 2005 From: tmar78 at yahoo.com (tyler maroney) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <1116705997.14631.76868.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20050522045825.74715.qmail@web14125.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129299 Hi everybody! I know this may seem like a strange topic, but bear with me. Just a little something that popped into my head tonight while I was at work. How does parseltongue work exactly? From what we've seen, it appears that while your mouthing english words, it comes out as another language. Or is this the case? Could it be that parselmouths are both mouthing and speaking parseltongue without being consciously aware of it? I got to thinking about this, wondering if LV would be able to read Harry's lips should he be spying on him through a pair of omnioculars while Harry's conversing with a snake. Tyler, who want's July to hurry up and get here so I can read HP&tHBP! A crazy person doesn't really lose his mind. It just becomes something more entertaining. Yahoo! Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour: http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html From chnc1024 at AOL.COM Sun May 22 05:16:38 2005 From: chnc1024 at AOL.COM (chnc1024 at AOL.COM) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 01:16:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Things... to see in H.B.P. - Apparation Message-ID: <102.6182895c.2fc16fb6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129300 In a message dated 5/21/2005 12:15:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, bboyminn at yahoo.com writes: bboyminn: So, here is the foundation of my thinking on Apparation class. It's true you can't get your licenses to Apparate until you are 17, Students are not allowed to use magic outside of school because they are underage, yet in school, under the supervision of qualified teachers, they are allowed to do all kinds of magic. Why would Apparation magic be any different? So, everyone who is 16 at the time the lessons are given will be able to learn Apparation. That IS my story, and I AM sticking to it. ;) Steve/bboyminn ************************* Chancie: I do agree that students should receive actual training for Apparation. However, I'm afraid that it would be impossible to do this in a class or on the grounds of Hogwarts, simply because you *CANT* apparate in the castle or on the grounds. I could see a class being held at the MoM, or in a place ran by them since you have to get a license to do so from them. Of course, there could always be a Theory of Apparation class at Hogwarts, but that would be a very Umbridge-like class, and I IMO it doesn't seem like the students like classes that they aren't allowed to do magic in. I also do agree that the students *should* have time to learn Apparation before the test (kind of like a learner's permit for driving), I'm just not sure of where/how this could be done. And also, Harry will be turning 16 in July, that means that both Hermione and Ron are already 16. I'm sure if there were any type of Apparation class open to 16 year olds, that at least Hermione would be enrolled. We've heard nothing on that, subject, so I'm of the thinking that there is now Apparation learner's permit, though I could be wrong. Chancie~who is just home from vacation with family/in-laws, and feels more tired and worn out than when she left. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 07:58:44 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 07:58:44 -0000 Subject: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: <428FA6A2.1080301@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > > bboyminn: > > > > Well, there is much and I mean MUCH speculation on this, but the > > only thing I've been able to come up with is that Snape is a > > double agent. Each side thinks Snape is spying for them. > KJ: > > .. this theory ..., I don't feel comfortable with it. The biggest > danger for a double agent is the number of people who know about it. > The fact that he was a spy was brought out in public, presumably at > his own trial, and again at the trial of the other DE. ... Then > there is the fact that Snape has remained with Dumbledore for the >past years while Voldemort was Vapormort. bboyminn: I think you missed the point. Snape in a sense is a double-double agent. Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore as a double agent, Dumbledore turned around and sent Snape back Voldemort as a double agent; hence, double-double agent. Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to spy on Dumbledore, now how he was able to do that is by Snape offering to Spy on Voldemort for Dumbledore. That's how Snape initially gained Dumbledore's trust. Any sign of loyalty to Dumbledore is irrelvant because that is exactly what a spy's job is. To spy on Dumbledore, Snape must constantly appear loyal to Dumbledore. Voldemort expects and accepts this as part of the spy game. Revealing that Snape was spying against Voldemort is still not a problem, because that is exactly how Snape got on Dumbledore's good side in the first place. Again, Voldemort expects and accepts this as part of the spy game. Further, Dumbledore expect and accepts exactly the same thing. Behind the scenes, Dumbledore expect and accepts that Snape will appear to despise Dumbledore and will display loyalty to Voldemort. Even further, each side can expect as part of the spy game, that Snape will betray them. Ideally, it will be an orchestrated betrayal. Dumbledore will send Snape to Voldemort with what appears to be vital inside information. Voldemort will turn around and send Snape back to Dumbledore with what appears to be vital DE information. Both sides are using Snape as a chess piece to gain inside information while at the same time disseminating misinformation. Displays of loyalty to either side by Snape mean nothing, because those displays of loyalty are exactly what the other side expects Snape to do. The Philosopher's Stone and Quirrel are also irrelevant because Voldemort never revealed himself to Snape. Snape had no way of knowing he was working against Voldemort, so there is no way Voldemort can consider that a betrayal; annoying, irritating, infuriating - yes, but not a betrayal. Again, as a spy for Voldemort, it's Snape's job to appear loyal to Dumbledore; Snape was just doing his job. Again, again, Snape being revealed as a Spy for the good side at Karkaroff's hearing doesn't matter, because once again, Voldemort already knows Snape is pretending to be a spy for the good side. The free DE's at the time would not likely do anything about it if they found out, because they would not want to put there barely won freedom at risk. Voldemort was gone, they all had nice normal prosperous lives and were safely out of jail, and I'm sure that's exactly how they wanted to keep it. Even if they questioned Snape, all Snape would have to do is tell them that he was pretending to be a spy for the good side while secretly working for Voldemort, and if he continued to display and profess pro-Voldemort pro-Pureblood sentiment, they would have no reason to doubt him. It's likely that Malfoy being one of the few DE's with a shread of intelligence was one of the few upper level DE that was aware of Voldemort's plan and of what Snape was doing. So, to some extent, Malfoy would have kept other more skeptical people off Snape's back. > KJ continues: > > ... at Grimmauld Place ... none of the Order fears or distrusts > Snape. We are given to believe that Moody does, ...edited... > > I can't think of any reason that would explain his showing his Dark > Mark to the Minister if he was still acting as a spy. ...edited... > > ...edited... > > These are a few of the things that bother me, logically speaking, > about the spy-double- spy theory. Feel free to refute or explain > these oddities, but please don't expect me to believe that Snape > just explained everything away and Voldemort just believed him. He > seemed to know quite well what the other DE were doing in his > absence. > > Sorry for the long post. > > KJ bboyminn: While Snape plays the role of Double-double agent or triple agent or whatever the heck it adds up to, we as outside observers and because of Dumbledore's genuine trust for Snape are lead to believe that Snape's true allegiance is to the good side. But again, in his role of double-double agent, the good side expects Snape to betray them and show loyalty to Voldemort as I explained above. It's all part of the spy game. DISPLAYS of loyalty mean nothing, again, they are part of the game. In fact, given that Voldemort expects Snape to display loyalty to Dumbledore, I do expect you to believe that Snape went to Voldemort, most likely through Malfoy, and explained that he was still loyal to Voldemort and willing to continue to spy for him. That doesn't mean that Voldemort didn't give Snape a very PAINFUL reminder of the price of true betrayal. It is the very fact that Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore as a spy that now allows Snape to come back to Voldemort. That is at the very heart of my position. So far, in Voldemort's eyes, Snape has just been doing his job. My main point is that by being a double-double agent (or whatever) Snape's APPARENT loyalties are meaningless because they are expected as part of the game. It's this presents of /apparent/ loyalties and the ambiguity of true loyalties that allows Snape to be a spy. Once again, we can give no weight to Snape's displays of loyalty to either side because that is how the game is played. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 08:44:34 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 08:44:34 -0000 Subject: Things... to see in H.B.P. - Apparation In-Reply-To: <102.6182895c.2fc16fb6@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, chnc1024 at A... wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/21/2005 12:15:46 AM Pacific Standard Time, > bboyminn at y... writes: > > bboyminn: > > So, here is the foundation of my thinking on Apparation > class. > > It's true you can't get your licenses to Apparate until you are 17, > Students are not allowed to use magic outside of school > because they are underage, yet in school, under the supervision of > qualified teachers, they are allowed to do all kinds of magic. Why > would Apparation magic be any different? > > > So, everyone who is 16 at the time the lessons are given will be > able to learn Apparation. That IS my story, and I AM sticking to > it. ;) > > > Steve/bboyminn > ************************* > > Chancie: > > I do agree that students should receive actual training for > Apparation. However, I'm afraid that it would be impossible > to do this in a class or on the grounds of Hogwarts, simply > because you *CANT* apparate in the castle or on the grounds. > > ... I also do agree that the students *should* have time to learn > Apparation before the test ..., I'm just not sure of > where/how this could be done. bboyminn: This will be a short post and I am repeating myself, but you have brought up a point that was also brought up by another person, so perhaps it is justified. You missed my earlier post, where I pointed out that all you have to do is step outside the front gate and you can Apparate. The large open area between the gates and the train station could be used for a practice field, and if necessary the train station itself could be used for a classroom. > Chancie continues: > > And also, Harry will be turning 16 in July, that means that both > Hermione and Ron are already 16. I'm sure if there were any type of > Apparation class open to 16 year olds, that at least Hermione would > be enrolled. We've heard nothing on that, subject, so I'm of the > thinking that there is now Apparation learner's permit, though I > could be wrong. > > > Chancie bboyminn: In my view there are two conditions for being able to learn to Apparate; you must be 16 at the time the classes are given and you must be in NEWT level classes, meaning 6th or 7th year. So even though Hermione was 16 last year (last book year) she was still studying at OWL level and was not eligible to take the classes. The next point is, it's VERY true we have never heard anything about Apparation classes, I suspect part of the reason is that the author/editors didn't want to clutter the books with one more detail. Another is that JKR didn't want to reveal the details of Apparation in the earlier books. Further, we see things from Harry's perspective, so unless he was aware of Apparation classes, we wouldn't have heard about it. I do find this slightly 'flinty', as you would have expected someone at sometime to have mentioned something about it. None the less, students must some how learn how to do this. It has already been make very clear that this is dangerous and difficult, and I have to suspect it's far more complicated than learning to drive a car. So, I don't think a 'few hours behing the wheel' is going to cut it. I suspect there is a lot of theory, and a lot of things to consider. At one point I vaguely remember hearing that the position of the moon must be taken into consideration when plotting your arrival location. I've never been able to find that reference, so it could have been fan fiction, but it does reflect a preception that it is a very complicated affair. So, my conclusion is that it is a class that will last minimum one or more terms; perhaps, one term - theory, and one term - practice. Further re-enforcing that students learning at school is that everyone we have seen so far, and taken their test during the summer in which they are 17. That implies that when summer arrived, they were ready to go, fully prepared to take the test. The only time they could have gotten prepared is during the school year. At least, I hope that's how it goes. Steve/bboyminn From jferer at yahoo.com Sun May 22 09:29:40 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:29:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > Alla: > > > >> Kreacher consciously > > betrayed Sirius. I think Harry had an absolute right to hate him for > > a while, but nope, Dumbledore goes on and on and on. :-) > > > > a_svirn: > > How did Kreacher "betray" Sirius, when he never was loyal to him in > the first place and never even pretended to be? You certainly can argue Kreacher had a duty to Sirius, being the Black family house elf. If I had an employee who did what Kreacher did, that employee betrayed me. I know house-elves are slaves, not employees, but if you argue that justifies his betrayal, that's a different argument. From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun May 22 09:59:35 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 09:59:35 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129304 Haha, maybe the Bloody Baron is the HBP? Chys From yami69hikari at yahoo.com Sun May 22 11:10:56 2005 From: yami69hikari at yahoo.com (Chys Sage Lattes) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 11:10:56 -0000 Subject: parselmouths In-Reply-To: <20050522045825.74715.qmail@web14125.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, tyler maroney wrote: > Hi everybody! I know this may seem like a strange > topic, but bear with me. Just a little something > that popped into my head tonight while I was at work. > How does parseltongue work exactly? From what we've > seen, it appears that while your mouthing english > words, it comes out as another language. Or is this > the case? Could it be that parselmouths are both > mouthing and speaking parseltongue without being > consciously aware of it? I got to thinking about > this, wondering if LV would be able to read Harry's > lips should he be spying on him through a pair of > omnioculars while Harry's conversing with a snake. > I've been wondering about the parselmouth thing myself... snakes either don't have ears or can't hear, I forget which, so how can they have a language? Is it vibrations? Is that why no one else could hear the Basalisk in the pipes? It was fairly obvious what Harry was doing with the snake during the duel scene with Malfoy, but did anyone actually hear snake speak words? I don't remember. I just don't understand the language aspect of it because of snakes and hearing. They stick out their tongue and breathe in scents, I'm a little lost here. Chys From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun May 22 13:27:06 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:27:06 -0000 Subject: parselmouths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129306 --- > > I've been wondering about the parselmouth thing myself... snakes > either don't have ears or can't hear, I forget which, so how can they > have a language? Is it vibrations? Is that why no one else could hear > the Basalisk in the pipes? It was fairly obvious what Harry was doing > with the snake during the duel scene with Malfoy, but did anyone > actually hear snake speak words? I don't remember. I just don't > understand the language aspect of it because of snakes and hearing. > They stick out their tongue and breathe in scents, I'm a little lost > here. > > > Chys BG writes: Yes, snakes can hear. Research begun about 35 years ago by E.G. Weaver and associates at Princeton University has shown that snakes hearing may be comparable to lizards. It is true that snakes lack external ears but they have a bone loosely suspended on both sides of their head hidden by skin and muscle. This bone is called a quadrate. When a sound makes the quadrate move, this movement is passed on to the cochlea and by means of electrical signals is sent on to the brain. In PS/SS Harry didn't realize he could hear the snake and he certainly didn't realize that he was speaking Parseltongue. Dudley and his friend only saw Harry and the snake "talking" they didn't actually hear them. And in COS all the students heard Harry speaking "snake language". Ron told Harry he heard him and then later in the library a group Hufflepuffs were discussing Harry and what his being a Parselmouth could mean. From buffyeton at yahoo.com Sun May 22 13:33:15 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 13:33:15 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129307 I've just had a bit of a realization, Hermione's parents aren't very good ones. In GoF, Hermonie says that her parents don't get the Daily Prophet. I'm not a parent myself, but if I were, and I had sent my child off to a boarding school in a new world filled with wizards and magic that I didn't know, I would at least subscirbe to the main (only?) newspaper! Try and keep myself informed of what was going on, as Hogwarts doesn't seem to have a newsletter or school magazine. I wonder if the parents of muggle-born students even know about Voldemort? Tamara From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 22 14:39:34 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:39:34 -0000 Subject: Guardian Dumbledore (was: Re: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129308 > Betsy: > I think the reason Dumbledore stresses that Harry and Hermione must > not be seen is that he knew what temptations they'd face. Harry > especially would be tempted to run out and grab Pettigrew, and > Dumbledore reiterates to Hermione that the rules of time travel > *must* be followed. And Hermione does make sure Harry follows the > rules. Again, I don't see evidence of Harry and Hermione facing > *mortal* danger. Pippin: I think the operative factor is not danger but choice. Dumbledore is inconsistent only if you see him as a puppetmaster who has been making all of Harry's choices for him from Day One. In that case it wouldn't make sense that he would try to shield Harry from the prophecy or the tournament when he chose to have him go after the stone, fight the basilisk or rescue Sirius. But if you believe that Dumbledore always wants Harry to make his own choices, it all fits. You may ask what sort of guardian would let a child choose to risk his life, but in all those situations Harry's life was at risk already. Not going after the Stone or leaving Ginny to die would not have spared him. As for the situation in PoA, regardless of your theory of time travel, Dumbledore has to know that Harry is the only one who could have saved his past self. As Lupin says, what else could have driven off the dementors? Dumbledore did not choose to have Harry compete in the tournament, IMO. If you are wondering how a contract could be enforced against someone whose agreement was forged, I suggest you google on identity theft. And thank your lucky stars that it hasn't happened to you. Yet. Dumbledore does not want to tell Harry about the prophecy because he knows it leaves Harry no choice. The whole point of a prophecy is that you can't choose whether or not to fulfill it. It chooses you. Harry is, as JKR says on her website, the Chosen One. And Dumbledore knows this is not the destiny Harry would seek for himself -- he would not go after someone who wants to kill him, nor would he kill for vengeance, nor to prevent harm that he only foresees (The Potterverse answer to the classic ethical dilemma is No, you can't kill Hitler as a baby.) Dumbledore delays as long as possible placing this burden on Harry. IMO, the tear he sheds at the end of OOP is for his realization that by delaying, he only made it heavier, since his delay contributed to Sirius's death. Pippin From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Sun May 22 14:53:05 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent Kutz) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 07:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP prediction contest (please discuss) Message-ID: <20050522145305.38687.qmail@web81202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129309 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Severus Snape 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) New magical guy from asia. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) One or both of her parents was a Squib. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Sturgis Podmore 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Kingsley Shacklebolt 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Pensive used to watch LV murder Harry's parents to get a clue to his distruction 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, after M.G. McGonagall pulls some strings. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 6 total with 3 Outstandings Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1.Narcissa Malfoy will die. 2.One or both of Harry's parents was a teacher at Hogwarts 3. We will see where Harry's parent's graves are on the hogwarts grounds 4.Ron will be made the Quidich Captain 5.Bill will marry Fleur Delacour and this will be the reason Harry is not at the Dursley's long. He goes to the Wedding. Brent From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Sun May 22 15:07:06 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:07:06 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: <8C72B96135A9CF7-F5C-88EB@mblk-r42.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > > > Mrs Norris appearing with a litter of orange furry kittnes. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] And Crookshanks is the Father. I've never seen anything to say if crookshanks is male or female, has anyone else? From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Sun May 22 15:59:21 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:59:21 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > I've just had a bit of a realization, Hermione's parents aren't very > good ones. In GoF, Hermonie says that her parents don't get the Daily > Prophet. I'm not a parent myself, but if I were, and I had sent my > child off to a boarding school in a new world filled with wizards and > magic that I didn't know, I would at least subscirbe to the main > (only?) newspaper! Try and keep myself informed of what was going on, > as Hogwarts doesn't seem to have a newsletter or school magazine. I > wonder if the parents of muggle-born students even know about > Voldemort? I've had the idea for a while now that Hermione has been (perhaps with McGonagall's collusion) carefully managing the information that gets to her parents. If so, I wonder how well her Potemkin con will survive her coming home from school injured. Amiable Dorsai From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 16:12:31 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:12:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129312 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > > > > > We don't know it. And I don't believe it. Also I'd like to point out > > that had he freed Kreacher before his house was chosen for the > > Headquarters, Kreacher wouldn't even been aware about the Order's > > existing. > > No, but he would be aware of where Sirius was. And assuming from their > behaviour, there was no love lost between them in the first place. > > Gerry What would it matter if they used Fidelius Charm? And they didn't need Kreacher to check the Black house. Its not like the Malfoys didn't know of its existence. a_svirn From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Sun May 22 16:13:26 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:13:26 -0000 Subject: Hermione's parents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > > I've just had a bit of a realization, Hermione's parents aren't very > > good ones. In GoF, Hermonie says that her parents don't get the Daily > > Prophet. I'm not a parent myself, but if I were, and I had sent my > > child off to a boarding school in a new world filled with wizards and > > magic that I didn't know, I would at least subscirbe to the main > > (only?) newspaper! Try and keep myself informed of what was going on, > > as Hogwarts doesn't seem to have a newsletter or school magazine. I > > wonder if the parents of muggle-born students even know about > > Voldemort? > > I've had the idea for a while now that Hermione has been (perhaps with > McGonagall's collusion) carefully managing the information that gets > to her parents. > > If so, I wonder how well her Potemkin con will survive her coming home > from school injured. > > Amiable Dorsai I always wondered why on her parents never show up when she is injured. I mean if a school didn't tell you your child was in the hospital you would be pretty upset. She is in and out alot sometimes like in Cos when she is petrified and turned half cat. She was in their for a long time. Brent From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Sun May 22 16:14:31 2005 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:14:31 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest (please discuss) In-Reply-To: <20050522145305.38687.qmail@web81202.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129314 Whizbang goes out on yet another limb: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? . . Moody 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe . . more.) . . Lately, I get the impression that JKR may be trying to put us off . . the scent in the FAQ poll answers. Still the reference to Neville . . not being "king" was interesting. Anyway, if Harry is King of . . anything, then the HBP must be Mark Evans. 3. What is Lily's big secret? . . JKR said we will never see a living James or Lily Potter. But . . maybe she's not dead yet, and we won't know she was alive all . . those years until after she dies. But she'll be identified by . . her green eyes. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? . . The Lion guy. I think the pattern of new character for DADA will . . continue in HP6. HP7 I'm not so sure about. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? . . Luna Lovegood 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? . . Someone with bottle green robes. Minerva's are emerald green ... . . close enough. Minerva McGonagall. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? . . A pensieve that belonged to one of Harry's parents. Dumbledore . . will show Harry how to put his memories into it and they will be . . able to go into it to witness Voldemort's attack on the Potters. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? . . Yes. But after the fiasco with occlumency, Dumbledore may assign . . him a different instructor. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? . . Maybe ... if anyone but Snape is teaching. It compliments . . Herbology. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? . . Clean sweep. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. The Weasley family will suffer a loss, either Molly or one of . . twins. 2. We will learn more about the magical "underground", tunnels, caves . . underground waterways and how they may be used to get into . . Hogwarts. 3. The Marauders were connected to Zonko's. Perhaps they . . manufactured gags for them. 4. We'll learn more about the home lives of Hogwarts professors . . and what they do during the summer. 5. Viktor Krum will come back into the story. We will learn that . . he's been the source of a lot of Hermione's information and that . . they are a couple. But I don't expect him to survive the series. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 16:29:34 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:29:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129315 > > > Alla: > > > > > >> Kreacher consciously > > > betrayed Sirius. I think Harry had an absolute right to hate him for > > > a while, but nope, Dumbledore goes on and on and on. :-) > > > > > > > a_svirn: > > > > How did Kreacher "betray" Sirius, when he never was loyal to him in > > the first place and never even pretended to be? Jim Ferer: > > You certainly can argue Kreacher had a duty to Sirius, being the Black > family house elf. If I had an employee who did what Kreacher did, > that employee betrayed me. I know house-elves are slaves, not > employees, but if you argue that justifies his betrayal, that's a > different argument. This is very right: he is no employee. And loyalty can only be freely given, therefore slaves have none. So if you had a slave you'd better not to expect anything of the sort. Besides I would argue that as a family elf, Kreacher discharged his duty to the House of Black admirably. From his perspective it was Sirius who had betrayed the family and forsaken his inheritance, after all. Moreover he made his views abundantly clear, so there can be no question of duplicity and betrayal. a_svirn From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 22 16:31:58 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:31:58 -0000 Subject: Jo's ethics was Sirius's hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129316 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > > But as I said - you get no argument from me that Sirius treated > Kreacher cruelly. I was not debating this point much, I was only > debating what right Dumbledore had to bring Sirius' faults in front of Harry right after he died. My answer is no right whatsoever, I understand that yours is the opposite, so we will have to agree to disagree on this oen, I suppose. :-) Pippin: I think I understand where you're coming from. In Jewish law, for example, badmouthing anybody, alive or dead, is considered as bad as murder. But there are exceptions (as usual) and one of them is when everybody already knows that someone has done wrong. That is the case here. It is Harry who first brought up Sirius's fault. "And," whispered Harry, his hands curled into cold fists on his knees, "and Hermione kept telling us to be nice to him--" Harry already knows that Sirius was cruel to Kreacher and that Kreacher was to be pitied. His hands are curled into fists because he thinks that Hermione's pity was wasted and that Sirius was right to hate the Elf. Dumbledore is trying to tell him that it was not so. That is his business (the other exception) as Harry's moral guardian. Just my opinion, of course. > Pippin: > I don't think Dumbledore was ignoring Harry's feelings, however. > I think he understood that Harry had found all this very > painful to hear. Why do you think he wept? > > > Alla: > > Hmmmm, maybe because he realised that he just preached to Harry about how badly Sirius treated Kreacher, while he himself let Harry live almost the life of house elf for ten years? :-) Pippin: Hmmm, I think Rowling may be dealing with certain ethical principles, in particular the principle of formal and material cooperation with evil and the principle of toleration. This is the language of Christian ethics, and as I am not a Christian or an ethicist I may have this all wrong and I would appreciate any corrections. My source is a Catholic website http://www.ascensionhealth.org/ethics/public/key_p rinciples/toleration.asp http://www.ascensionhealth.org/ethics/public/key_p rinciples/cooperation.asp and I realize that JKR, who is not Catholic, might not share these views. But here goes :-) My understanding is Dumbledore didn't send Harry to the Dursleys *because* he was going to be abused there, he didn't intend that either he or Harry would profit from the abuse, and the danger to Harry from Voldemort and his servants was, in Dumbledore's estimation, far greater and more immediate than the danger of any harm the Dursleys might do. Since the Dursleys were Harry's only remaining family, they could have become Harry's guardians (and abusers) in any case, so the abuse was not something that couldn't have taken place without Dumbledore's participation. I think that fits the criteria under which mediate material cooperation with evil may be allowed. The principle of toleration allows one in power to permit the evil actions of others if two criteria are met: one does not take part in the evil oneself, and the evil cannot be prevented without causing a greater evil or losing a greater good. Not to take advantage of the blood protection would lose the good of Lily's sacrifice, and allowing Harry to be killed would be a greater evil. Since Dumbledore believed that he would not have been able to keep Harry safe any other way, according to these principles, he made a moral decision to leave Harry at the Dursleys and tolerate their behavior, though of course you can disagree with his premises or the principles themselves. (Posts about ethical systems which do not reference canon should go to OT-Chatter.) As I said, I'm not a Christian or an ethicist, and I'm not saying that this is how people should act -- just passing it along for what it's worth. Pippin From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun May 22 16:39:04 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:39:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129317 > > What would it matter if they used Fidelius Charm? And they didn't need > Kreacher to check the Black house. Its not like the Malfoys didn't > know of its existence. Kingsley is feeding the MoM Sirius is spotted in Tibet (somewhere in OoP). That means they won't be looking for him in England. If Kreacher would tell where Sirius was, it is easy to give this information to the MoM and that would mean a high alert to all aurors. Gerry From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 17:08:00 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:08:00 -0000 Subject: "I thought he could overcome his feelings..." Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129318 > Tiffany: > > Hi. Maybe the thing is that Snape just doesn't react to Voldemort in the same way he reacts to Harry. maybe, because neither Tom Riddle or his father ever picked on Snape in school, and because Voldemort just doesn't matter to Snape in the same way Harry does, Snape finds it easier to cut off his own emotions around Voldemort. a_svirn: Let me get it straight. You mean that Harry, whose worst crime against Snape is his being the son of the bully who made Snape's life at Hogwarts miserable, "matters" for him more than LV? "Matters" in the sense `arouse more powerful negative emotions', I take it? So unspeakable crimes which Snape undoubtedly witnessed and in which quite possibly (I'd say even probably) participated simply pale in comparison with being publicly ridiculed by a bunch of Gryffindors? But that makes Snape a sick bastard and NOT a repentant, but quite genuine DE, and DD should have packed him off to Azkaban instead of letting him near children under his care. Somehow I have more faith in DD's judgement, though. > Tiffany: Maybe Snape's bad temper was also supposed to give Harry a taste of what he might be up against in the 'real world". > > a_svirn: Harry was orphaned as a small infant and spent next ten years being horribly mistreated. Since he started Hogwarts there has been at least one attempt to kill him every year, and in the GoF he witnessed the murder of his schoolmate, was subjected to the two Unforgivables, and was very nearly killed yet again. Not to mention such trifles as the tasks in the tournament, detentions with Umbridge, nightmares with LV etc. I'd say he doesn't need any more lessons about the "real world". a_svirn From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 22 17:06:27 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:06:27 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129319 A_svirn: > Besides I would argue that as a family elf, Kreacher discharged his duty to the House of Black admirably. From his perspective it was Sirius who had betrayed the family and forsaken his inheritance, after all. Moreover he made his views abundantly clear, so there can be no question of duplicity and betrayal. Pippin: Kreacher contacted a mistress, Narcissa, whose interests he knew were in conflict with his master's, and did not inform Sirius of the fact. He took advantage of Sirius's confidence that the Elf was not serving anyone else, and that constitutes a betrayal. That Sirius's confidence was misplaced is irrelevant -- confidence in a traitor always is. Pippin From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 17:18:19 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:18:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129320 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > > > > > What would it matter if they used Fidelius Charm? And they didn't need > > Kreacher to check the Black house. Its not like the Malfoys didn't > > know of its existence. > > Kingsley is feeding the MoM Sirius is spotted in Tibet (somewhere in > OoP). That means they won't be looking for him in England. If Kreacher > would tell where Sirius was, it is easy to give this information to > the MoM and that would mean a high alert to all aurors. > > Gerry But he couldn't have told anything of the sort because of the Fidelius charm. And the information about Tibet was as much for Kingsley's benefit as for Sirius's, by the way. He WAS in charge of the Sirius-hunting. He had to present some plausible justifications why he had been unsuccessful so far. When Sirius was spotted at the platform, Kingsley, I imagine, had a very unpleasant explanations to do. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 17:24:47 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:24:47 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > A_svirn: > > Besides I would argue that as a family elf, Kreacher discharged his > duty to the House of Black admirably. From his perspective it was > Sirius who had betrayed the family and forsaken his inheritance, > after all. Moreover he made his views abundantly clear, so there > can be no question of duplicity and betrayal. > > > Pippin: > Kreacher contacted a mistress, Narcissa, whose interests he > knew were in conflict with his master's, and did not inform Sirius of > the fact. He took advantage of Sirius's confidence that the Elf was > not serving anyone else, and that constitutes a betrayal. That > Sirius's confidence was misplaced is irrelevant -- confidence in > a traitor always is. > > Pippin But that's what I am saying ? he didn't recognize Sirius as a master. He was forced by magic to do his bidding, but as far as he was concerned it was Sirius who had betrayed the House of Black and his Blood. Hes views were well known, so if Sirius was confident, Kreacher was hardly to blame. A traitor pretends to be loyal, Kreacher never did so. a_svirn From kjones at telus.net Sun May 22 04:26:23 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 21:26:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429009EF.5040608@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129322 potioncat wrote: > I'm honestly curious about what people's views on the above are and > why (beyond the usual literary reasons) we feel attracted to the > characters who appeal to us. > > (major snips) > > So my argument states that Snape appeals to *some* women who feel > frustrated that society, their families, or life in general obliges > them into a caretaker role when they privately feel that they are > better suited for more intellectual work. Some of these women might > reject caretaker roles for themselves, and others might be > *extremely dutiful* mothers,teachers and nurses who simply feel the > pressure to be compassionate and tender-hearted all the time. It's > a heavy burden for anyone not 100% sweetness and light in the first > place. But what if women actually acted like Snape! It's hardly an > option for any of us who care about what our loved ones think of > us. (If only the world were as accepting as Dumbledore! > > So Snape is deliciously enjoyable because, as a literary > character, he can get away with all the nastiness he wants and we > can enjoy it vicariously without actually hurting anyone in the > Real World. > (More major snips) Kathy writes: This is an absolutely great theory! I know that I have much the same disposition as Snape, just about as much patience and I can tell you that motherhood hit me hard. I can "do" (change diapers, feed, clothe, take them to the hospital and dentist, perform first aid) but when it comes to "nurture", I struggle. Fortunately I have very understanding children. It is interesting to note, while I am confessing anyway, that my other favourite character is Dr. Gregory House, from the TV show "House". I hugely admire anbody who can be that obnoxious and get away with it. This must confirm something! KJ From McGregorMax at ec.rr.com Sun May 22 14:56:30 2005 From: McGregorMax at ec.rr.com (mcmaxslb) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 14:56:30 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129323 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I don't think that we will loose any of the main characters in HBP. Everyone is expecting it now after OotP so I think that JKR will not kill any body off in HBP but wait for Book7. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) A new character but not a student at Hogwarts. It will be a powerful wizard who Harry will convince to stand against Voldemort. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Some connection to Voldemort. Not that she is related to him or a deatheater or anything like that. Maybe she looked like his mother? Something that would lead the dark jerkoff to offer to spare her life. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The character that JKR unveiled on her website. He is the reason that Harry leaves Privet dr. to begin "combat" training to take on Voldemort and he will become the new DADA teacher to both teach the kids at Hogwarts and Harry's special training. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Hermione of course! What other female character has been developed enough for such a relationship to be believable. Keeping with what has happened in the previous books, Harry&Hermione will spend more and more time together and have adventures together, without Ron, and towards the end of HBP will come to the realization that what they feel for each other has become more that friendship. This will be an important part of Book7. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones. With Arthur Weasley as the head of Magical Law Enforcement. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensieve. But who's pensieve is it? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. JKR won't give up the drama that happens when Harry and Snape are in the same room. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I think so. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Seven. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry needs to learn to fight, not duel, fight and to begin this "combat" training is the reason that Harry leaves Privet dr. The Order will do the training with Moody, Lupin and this new Lion-Man character will be Harry's primary instructors but other Order members will help. The training will consisted on spellwork, like what Dumbledore and Voldemort were doing at MoM, Apparition and both physical and weapons (Gryffindore's sword will be used again) training. 2. During this training Harry will manifest a new power/abilities that will be both very rare and very powerful and has nothing to do with his connection to Voldemort, like Parseltongue was. 3. It is no prediction to say that Harry will be spending a good bit of time with Dumbledore, but the reason why? It will start with Occlumency, being that Snape is incapable of teaching it, but will go on to other things. I think that Harry will start to study the Dark Arts. He will do this because he will need the knowledge to be able to defeat the dark jerkoff and Dumbledore will only permit it under his direct supervision. 4. We will find out why Snape turned on Voldemort and although I don't think it will be as noble as all the Snivellus lovers think but compelling enough that it's why Dumbledore trusts him. 5. There will be a split in Slytherin house between the Voldemort Youth around Draco Malfoy and students who want nothing to do with the dark jerkoff. After all there has to be some good Slytherins, if their all jr. deatheaters then it would be not only stupid but dangerous to let exist in Hogwarts. Dumbledore will encourage Harry to reach out to them though the DA. mcmaxslb From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 19:26:37 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:26:37 -0000 Subject: Jo's ethics was Sirius's hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129324 > > Alla: > > > > Hmmmm, maybe because he realised that he just preached to > Harry about how badly Sirius treated Kreacher, while he himself > let Harry live almost the life of house elf for ten years? :-) > > Pippin: > Hmmm, I think Rowling may be dealing with certain > ethical principles, in particular the principle of formal and > material cooperation with evil and the principle of toleration. > This is the language of Christian ethics, and as I am not a > Christian or an ethicist I may have this all wrong and I would > appreciate any corrections. My source is a Catholic website > > http://www.ascensionhealth.org/ethics/public/key_p > rinciples/toleration.asp > http://www.ascensionhealth.org/ethics/public/key_p > rinciples/cooperation.asp > > and I realize that JKR, who is not Catholic, might not share these > views. > But here goes :-) > > My understanding is Dumbledore didn't send Harry to the Dursleys > *because* he was going to be abused there, he didn't intend that > either he or Harry would profit from the abuse, and the danger to > Harry from Voldemort and his servants was, in Dumbledore's > estimation, far greater and more immediate than the danger of any > harm the Dursleys might do. Since the Dursleys were Harry's only > remaining family, they could have become Harry's guardians (and > abusers) in any case, so the abuse was not something that couldn't > have taken place without Dumbledore's participation. > > I think that fits the criteria under which mediate material > cooperation with evil may be allowed. > > The principle of toleration allows one in power to permit the evil > actions of others if two criteria are met: one does not take part in > the evil oneself, and the evil cannot be prevented without causing > a greater evil or losing a greater good. > > Not to take advantage of the blood protection would lose the good of > Lily's sacrifice, and allowing Harry to be killed would be a greater > evil. > > Since Dumbledore believed that he would not have been able to keep > Harry safe any other way, according to these principles, > he made a moral decision to leave Harry at the Dursleys and tolerate > their behavior, though of course you can disagree with his premises > or the principles themselves. (Posts about ethical systems which do > not reference canon should go to OT-Chatter.) > > a_svirn: Suppose you repeat you arguments without inserting Christian principles of toleration? Would you logic and conclusion differ terribly? I think not, you'd just get something like: "Since Dumbledore believed that he would not have been able to keep Harry safe any other way, he made a decision to leave Harry at the Dursleys and tolerate their behavior". So why do we need Christian ethic to figure out something DD already told us? a_svirn From cottell at dublin.ie Sun May 22 19:27:29 2005 From: cottell at dublin.ie (muscatel1988) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:27:29 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks' gender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129325 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > I've never seen anything to say if > crookshanks is male or female, has anyone else? Hermione is pretty sure from the off, since the first thing she says about him is "He's gorgeous, isn't he?" (PoA, UK pb, p50). At that point, JKR uses "it", but we already know that she's isn't a cat person. Later on, though, she uses the masculine pronoun - e.g. in Ch8, 'Crookshanks skidded to a halt, crouched low on his bandy legs and started making furious swipes beneath the chest of drawers with his front paw' (PoA, UK pb, p111), and in Ch 17, 'Crookshanks leapt onto Black's chest and settled himself there, right over Black's heart.' (PoA, UK pb, p251). On the related question of , though, it seems canon is silent. ;-) So kittens are not ruled out. From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun May 22 19:35:24 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:35:24 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129326 Porphyria OK, plain English: Snape appeals to some women because he is exactly what a woman cannot be if she is to be recognized as "feminine" in our society. Gerry What a load of rubbish. I' a Snape fan. I'm a women. I'm a nurturing, warm, caring person. I also have a brain. And I like to use it, which I do quite a lot, at work as well as privately. I like theories that have a basis in facts. I like authors of theories to have at least done something to verify their brainchild before spouting them off. Did I mention I love sarcasm? I love Snape because he is such an interesting, complex character. He had some rotten things happen to him, did some rotten things and now has to live with the consequences. I also adore his use of language. He is also the character I'm most curious about. Why did he become a DE? Why did he change sides? He is on the good side, is brave and still a bastard in the classroom. (And yes, you can love Snape and still think that what he did to Neville's toad is despiccable and he should have been slapped for the remark about Hermione's teeth.) This makes him interesting. What strikes me about Snape is that he comes across as a very lonely person. What I hope to find in the next books is that JKR will give him some much overdue happiness. Potioncat I have to admit, having a son about the age of Harry, I love the scene when Snape throws/magicks the jar of cockroaches at Harry. I'd love to do that too! Of course I wouldn't throw anything at my own son;after all, I'd be the one to clean up all those cockroaches;but it does offer a certain sense of satisfaction. Gerry I felt so very, very sorry for Snape in that scene. It must have been so painful and hurtful to realise that of all people Harry had seen this scene. Satisfaction, no. Just great empathy for Snape who must have felt violated and degraded to the core of his being. Gerry, who now is very curious about the reaction this post got so she'll start searching the archive. From kgpopp at yahoo.com Sun May 22 17:43:29 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:43:29 -0000 Subject: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129327 > bboyminn: > > I think you missed the point. Snape in a sense is a double-double > agent. Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore as a double agent, > Dumbledore turned around and sent Snape back Voldemort as a double > agent; hence, double-double agent. > > Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to spy on Dumbledore, now how he > was able to do that is by Snape offering to Spy on Voldemort for > Dumbledore. That's how Snape initially gained Dumbledore's trust. > > Any sign of loyalty to Dumbledore is irrelvant because that is > exactly what a spy's job is. To spy on Dumbledore, Snape must > constantly appear loyal to Dumbledore. Voldemort expects and > accepts this as part of the spy game. Revealing that Snape was > spying gainst Voldemort is still not a problem, because that is > exactly how Snape got on Dumbledore's good side in the first place. > Displays of loyalty to either side by Snape mean nothing, because > those displays of loyalty are exactly what the other side expects > Snape to do. Kristen: Steve Per usual your post has me thinking; and agree with the logic of you argument for Snape's behavior as a double agent/triple agent. However, it is based on very big assumption that Voldemort sent Snape to spy on Dumbledore. Since there is no canon to reference it leaves me wondering a few things 1. What reason could Voldemort have told Double!Agent!Snape to give to Dumbledore, to make DD believe that Snape had turned or could be trusted? 2. Did Snape take the double agent assignment planning to betray the Dark lord or did something happen later that turned him? And what made him turn. 3. And of course the thing we all wonder how did Snape convince Dumbledore that he can be trusted? And Can he? 4. And last but not least does Voldemort still think Snape is playing double agent and if so why does Voldemort still trust Snape? To my 1st and 2nd questions I have no clue and am still thinking up options. I think I've seen some speculation that maybe Snape's family was hurt which seems plausible. I've love some speculation on your part or that of anyone else's for that matter. As to the 3rd, not sure what Snape could have said or done to convince Dumbledore but I do think Snape is against Voldemort. Not sure if it because I just don't want Dumbledore to have made that big error in judgment; or because I like to think Snape is the complex charter that illustrates that there are degrees of good and bad. As to the last question I have my doubts that Voldemort still trust Snape. Note: I don't disagree with your analysis about the Philosopher's stone and Karkaroff's hearing. > The Philosopher's Stone and Quirrel are also irrelevant because > Voldemort never revealed himself to Snape. Snape had no way of > knowing he was working against Voldemort, so there is no way > Voldemort can consider that a betrayal; annoying, irritating, > infuriating - yes, but not a betrayal. > Again, again, Snape being revealed as a Spy for the good side at > Karkaroff's hearing doesn't matter, because once again, Voldemort > already knows Snape is pretending to be a spy for the good side. Kristen Again: However, there are 2 things that make me think that if Snape was playing a triple agent the jig is up: 1. Voldemort tortured and controlled Barty Crouch Sr. for several months. I think that somewhere in that time Barty would have shared with Voldemort what ever testimony Dumbledore gave on Snape. Now I know what you're thinking here That if Snape is a double agent then this was part of the act so Voldemort would not care. But what if Dumbledore had to share the real reason Snape turned not the fake reason (Assuming they are different). 2. When Voldemort comebacks and addresses the DE, there is a spot in the circle where 6 are missing and he says " And here we have six missing Death Eaters three dead in my service. One too cowardly to return he will pay. One who I believe has left me forever he will be killed, of course and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service." I assume the coward is Karkaroff', the 1 who left is Snape, and the faithful servant is Barty Crouch Jr. Now it could be that Voldemort thinks Snape is the coward and Karkaroff the one who left. But if Voldemort still trust Snape and still thinks he is a double agent why would he call him a coward? Note: I see no way for Barty Jr. to be the coward or the one who left, so it highly unlikely Snape is the most faithful servant. So if Snape is double/triple agent man . that leaves me wondering is Voldemort playing Snape? From kgpopp at yahoo.com Sun May 22 18:11:52 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:11:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129328 > But he couldn't have told anything of the sort because of the > Fidelius charm. And the information about Tibet was as much for > Kingsley's benefit as for Sirius's, by the way. He WAS in charge of > the Sirius-hunting. He had to present some plausible justifications > why he had been unsuccessful so far. When Sirius was spotted at the > platform, Kingsley, I imagine, had a very unpleasant explanations > to do. > > a_svirn Kristen While Mr. Malfoy spotted Sirius on the platform I hardly think he would tell the MOM this information. So I doubt Kingsley had any explaining to do. For one: Voldemort wanted to use Sirius as bait, and it would be tricker to do if the ministry was searching London for Sirius. I mean Harry would hardly think Sirius would go out if the MOM thought he was in London. For another if Malfoy knows Sirius can transfigure into a dog it might raise question as to how he knows this and Malfoy does not want to arouse suspicion. Maybe you could argue that he heard it from Fudge. But it seems unlikely that Fudge would spread Harry's story about Sirius around since he did not believe Harry. And I don't think Voldemort wants the MOM to know about Kreacher. Kreacher is not bound to Malfoy so he could be forced to spill the bean about Malfoy and Voldemort. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun May 22 19:53:44 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:53:44 -0000 Subject: Filk: The Library Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129329 Madam Pince has a solo! To the Susans: CV and SSSusan. "The Library" to "Macavity" from ALW's "Cats". Alone in the library, Madam Pince lets her hair down and sings: The library's my second home; the books fill me with awe. And students who should talk too much feel me lay down the law. They bring their chocolate Snitches in and doodle on the chair- But when they need some knowledge then, the library is there! The library, the library, there's no place like the library. I scowl and hiss and threaten them and practice diatribary. I brandish feather dusters and give out a vulture's stare- But if they need to look things up, the library's right there! If in the Restricted Section, you must cautiously use care, But for solid, verify'ble facts, the library is there! The library is filled with books, their wisdom kept within, But when students should abuse them, oh, my patience then wears thin. The books can range from miniscule to epic-standard tome. The shelves are stacked so students can be learning as they roam. A few are bound with solid charms that students cannot break. And if you take them stealthily, a screaming noise they'll make. The library, the library, there's no place like the library. You turn the book in when it's due- don't even think of bribery. You may opt to re-renew it, but it's better far to share. When others want to read the book- the library is there! I know my Dewey Decimal-I've memorized the cards. We've even got a Scottish play by one o'those Muggle bards. We've got some books on potions, some of which should not be trifled, And some others that will read themselves aloud and must be stifled. We've got Quidditch through the Ages, and a few that are so rare, And if you want Fantastic Beasts, the library is there! The library, the library, there's no place like the library. You can look up switching spells and make yourself a butterflyberry. In NEWT years you can find a charm to lift you from despair- Whatever sort of thing you need, the library is there! And I know that all the students whose IQ is above drones: (I might mention Hermy Granger, I might mention Susan Bones) Are always found within my walls- they study all the time. We might just get a Minister of Magic that is Prime! The library, the library, THE LIBRARY! Ginger, who never realized how few words rhyme with library. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 19:59:18 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 19:59:18 -0000 Subject: Filk: That Potion Master's Fine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129330 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > To the tune of "Love Potion #9" by the Searchers. > > For an off-list request that I have been sitting on far too long. > > To Tonks_op. > > > The challenge was set for me: write a Sexy!Snape filk. Easy enough, > I thought. The challenge continued: a la Alan Rickman. Now we hit > a snagging point. Rickman is indeed a hottie, but my Sexy!Snape came > off the pages themselves. > > But, Rickman or canon, all the Snape fangirls agree: That potion > master's fine. > > > That Potion Master's Fine: > > There's a professor in the Potter books. > Only in movies does he have good looks. > Though there are folks who just wish he would resign, > The Snape Fangirls agree that (sigh) that potion master's fine. > > Some scour the books to see what makes him tick. > Some dash to theatres to see each flick. > Each says to herself "ooh, I want to make him mine". > And they all agree that (sigh) that potion master's fine. > > They say he's a jerk and a git and a dink, > But there's something about him that just tickles us pink. > He makes us all react like we've had too much to drink. > We raise our nose, and close our eyes to what they think. > > His silky voice just fills us with delight. > His snarky attitude fits him just right. > When he swishes his cloak, it is borderline divine. > Concensus of the fangirls: (sigh) That potion master's fine. > (repeat) > > Ginger, who loves Snape for his caustic wit. You can turn a deaf ear; you can turn a blind eye To his faults, you can titter and sigh, Just remember: be wary and toe the line Or he'll have you for supper and wash down with wine. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sun May 22 20:48:43 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 20:48:43 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Lusting after Snape > > The question has come up many times. Snape is not described in > appealing ways, yet he has a large fan base. What is his appeal? Back in 2002 Prophyria took on the challenge of "why is Snape so > appealing to so many women?". Here is the post #47913: (snip) Snape is the cast-off animus of an individual who has been socialized as female. OK, plain English: Snape appeals to some women because he is exactly what a woman cannot be if she is to be recognized as "feminine" in our society. (Snip) Tonks: Anyone who hates children and cats can't be all bad!! I am a bit like Snape, to tell the truth. It is a bit of my sick sense of humor. I am the only one who can tell my friend's cat what to do and it does it! It wouldn't obey anyone because they all like cats, but it obeys me because I don't. When I look at it and say "you!" and point up the stairs it looks at me and goes!! Just like Snape. No mollycoddling just stern "do it and do it now!" Reading the books I fell in love with DD. I told my friends and they said "He is too old for you. And besides he is a fictional character." I really do love DD. He is everything I strive to be. I like (book)Lupin too, and according to personality profiles we have the same score. Now it wasn't until the media that can't be named did the second book that I said "OH Snape!! It was that scene with the table and the snake. Hollywood really knows how to take a nasty character and make him a man all women lust after. But he is not that way in the books. So I do think that the book Snape and the other Snape are not really the same person, but now because of Allan Rickman, in our minds they are. Call him the new Snape (book/movie combo). He is the combination of a man who is our intellectual equal, and someone who can taking a commanding presence and knows what he is doing, does it, and does it right. He can be in the presence of even the Dark Lord and follow his (Snape's) own way. He is the opposite of that sniffling Wormtail. So why do woman want (new)Snape? One reason is that he is the symbol of raw power channeled and controlled. He is our dark side. If Snape wants us then we have control of the power of darkness. A man that is the symbol of darkness, but a hint of rebellious goodness, a man to whom children and cats cower comes to us and grovels at our feet. That is what women see in Snape. The power a woman has over the strongest man. "Yes dear I will take out the trash right now, yes dear." That is what we want ah.. well part anyway. (blush). Tonks_op From juli17 at aol.com Sun May 22 20:49:16 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 16:49:16 EDT Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129332 In her HBP predictions, hogsheadbarmaid wrote: > 4. We will see Snape cry. This is an interesting prediction. I can't see the Severus Snape we know now crying over anything. He's too bitter. I can see Severus Snape the child crying, or even Severus Snape the young adult crying if the reason is strong enough (for instance, if his wife and son were killed because of his DE activities or questioned loyalty to Voldemort). If we see this, I'm sure it will be in some sort of flashback, and whatever the impetus is for Snape's tears, it will no doubt be something that further cemented his bitterness against the world. BTW, I'm really enjoying reading the HPB predicitions. There are so many creative predictions popping up. I have to wonder if JKR reads these for a good laugh--or with surprise that some of them are in fact incredibly accurate! Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From juli17 at aol.com Sun May 22 21:06:03 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:06:03 EDT Subject: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? Message-ID: <1a4.38705d32.2fc24e3b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129333 Steve wrote: > My main point is that by being a double-double agent (or whatever) > Snape's APPARENT loyalties are meaningless because they are expected > as part of the game. It's this presents of /apparent/ loyalties and > the ambiguity of true loyalties that allows Snape to be a spy. Once > again, we can give no weight to Snape's displays of loyalty to either > side because that is how the game is played. > > That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. > > Steve/bboyminn Julie says: I agree that Snape is playing both sides, and is a double-double agent as it were. I can't imagine it is easy, and I wonder when people do this in real life if they actually lose track of where their true loyalties are! (Or even change their loyalties periodically.) However, I do think as readers we can choose to give weight to Snape's displays of loyalty based on how we feel about Dumbledore's intelligence and perceptive powers. Dumbledore tells us over and over that he trusts Snape. If we believe he is able, through accurate perception or legilimency, to gauge Snape's true loyalty, then we too can assume Snape's loyalty is to the Order. That is my own stand. I do know Dumbledore is not perfect, and has made several mistakes in judgment, but here I think he is right. I will also admit here that I think Dumbledore is right less because of his apparent perceptive powers than because I believe JKR *intends* him to be right. She's allowed him to display poor judgment several times, but letting DD be wrong about Snape would take DD's fallibility too far I think. Snape being evil would also be too pat and obvious, IMO. If there is a major traitor to be revealed, it will be someone far less obvious, someone like Minerva McGonagall (though I hope it's not her). Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun May 22 21:14:12 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:14:12 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129334 > Potioncat: > > I would also like to add, re GulPlum's question about sexual > fantasies,that infatuation with literary characters has *nothing to > do* with sexual attraction in its simplest sense. These characters > have no physical presence; they do not infect us with their > pheromones or put the moves on us. They are only as attractive as we > imagine them. Our impression of them is rooted purely in language, > which means it is symbolic and analyzable.Otherwise, we'd all have > hopeless crushes on Gilderoy Lockhart, which does not seem to be the > case. :-) Snape, in particular, *is supposed to be ugly, > * so there must be something *else* going on with his legion of female crushers for them to feel as they do. Phoenixgod2000: I think there is probably more simple lust involved with Snape than the author gives credit for. Its the only possible explanation for the glut of bad SS/HG smutfics > However, what is is we typically see Snape doing? He gets to teach 11 > year olds Boil-Curing Potion *over and over and over.* He has to herd > them from class to class when there is some danger in the castle. He > has to keep them in line and break up fights. He has to babysit. He > has to make sure they get medical treatment when they injure > themselves, and protect them from their own recklessness. And, in > what I think is one of the series' moments of pure comic genius, > Snape has to play hyper-conscientious nursemaid to Lupin, someone > he'd just as soon poison. He should be thankful he gets to do that job instead of spending quality time around dementors for the rest of his natural life. DD went out on an incredible limb to get him hired and off the hook for being a death eater. Honestly, his rampant ingratitude for a job he's lucky to have is sticking point for me (one of many). > So my argument states that Snape appeals to *some* women who feel > frustrated that society, their families, or life in general obliges > them into a caretaker role when they privately feel that they are > better suited for more intellectual work. Some of these women might > reject caretaker roles for themselves, and others might be *extremely > dutiful* mothers,teachers and nurses who simply feel the pressure to > be compassionate and tender-hearted all the time. It's a heavy burden > for anyone not 100% sweetness and light in the first place. But what > if women actually acted like Snape! It's hardly an option for any of > us who care about what our loved ones think of us. (If only the world > were as accepting as Dumbledore! I think the author is close but not quite right. I don't think that the appeal of Snapish characters is limited to women and only represents the release of some of the more negative feelings they have. That attitude definitely appeals to guys too. It appeals to everyone who has to work or live with other people who push their buttons, annoy them, aggravate them and work at what they consider below their level. which face, is pretty much every living being on the planet. It feels good to read a character who doesn't censor themselves the way we wish we didn't have to. I think that by linking it to some kind of women's only issue the author minimizes the incredibly broad appeal of those characters. > ) So Snape is deliciously enjoyable because, as a literary character, > he can get away with all the nastiness he wants and we can enjoy it > vicariously without actually hurting anyone in the Real World. > > So I think the reason that the vast majority of Snape's admirers are > female is that he represents the vindictive, resentful flipside of the > "female" role that is foreclosed to real women who feel obliged to > appear "feminine" by typical cultural standards. I don't think that he represents the feminine so much as he represents the id being attached directly to the mouth like so many of us wish we could be. I know plenty of straight guys who think the character of Snape is awesome. Perhaps not the deepest of thinkers when it comes to HP, but they are out there nonetheless so I don't think it is just a gender thing. Besides, if he was such a feminine model he would be written with a much more feminie slant in fan fiction, but even in SS centered fan fiction he is written as an incredibly masculine character--more masculine in fact than he appears in canon. seems to me like women are writing him more about how they wish the men they know were rather than how they wish they might be. I don't know. I find the fascination with Canon!Snape mindboggling. I don't mind what they do to him in fanfiction because we all do that to characters we find interesting (you should see the literary gymnastics I've done with Bellatrix Lestrange to turn her into a sympathetic character), but the way Snape fans look at canon mystifies me. But who can really say why anyone likes any other character. Why is the most interesting character for me to write about in my own fan fiction Gabrielle Delacour? she doesn't even have dialogue in GoF but I find myself absolutely fascinated by her future potential and connection with a post hogwarts Harry. It took me the longest time to put into words the reason why I don't like Snape. I normally love characters like Snape. Raistlin Majere, like I talked about in a past post, or the lead character Dr. House in the new fox tv show about a doctor who hates sick people (check it out) are very much in the bitter, biting mode of Snape and I love both of them. I like that style of humor and I like characters with a edge to them. For me, what it comes down to, is that I don't like who Snape snarks too. other characters in his mold snark either to people more powerful than they are as a form of insult or people who are their equals in society. Snape just picks on kids. Regardless of his person history with Harry's family, it just isn't kosher to to do that. I guess whether you like Snape or not ultimately focuses on whether or not you are paying more attention to who is giving rather than who is recieving the attitude. I can't help but sympathize far more with the students than I can with him. YMMV my shiny copper coin on the subject phoenixgod2000 From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sun May 22 21:19:38 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:19:38 -0000 Subject: HPB -- will DD bring Harry up to par or string him along per usual? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129335 Regarding Book 6, I see two options: 1)In Book 6, DD reveals everything he knows about the death of Harry's parents, Professer Snape, Voldemort, etc., and after that point, they find out new information together, or one finds out and shares with the other. 2) DD continues to string Harry along and provides information on a "need to know" basis, while Harry finds out just enough on his own to continue to put himself and his friends in harm's way. I prefer option #1, because I would rather see Harry and DD working together. Right now, it's almost like Harry is a hired hand, without the pay. DD needs Harry to kill VM, but refuses to bring him up to speed on what happened. Harry is partly at fault, because he doesn't ask enough questions to suit me, but it seems like some things shouldn't have to be asked. Another reason I prefer option #1 is that I'd rather Harry risk his life being fully informed. Perhaps, after the incident at the MOM, DD really sees how determined Harry is to do "something" about the situation (whatever Harry thinks needs to be done) and will give him more guidance/supervision. Either way, I hope DD reveals more information before the end of the book, like in OOP. (I realize that Harry was provided info by Snape before the end of that book, but I mean, someone had to keep the plot moving, and it couldn't have been DD, since he was avoiding Harry.) Anyway, my two knut's worth. Angie From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 22 21:22:41 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:22:41 -0000 Subject: Kristen: Snape, Spies, War, and Good Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kgpopp" wrote: > > bboyminn: > > > > I think you missed the point. Snape in a sense is a double-double > > agent. Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore as a double agent, > > Dumbledore turned around and sent Snape back Voldemort as a double > > agent; hence, double-double agent. > > > > Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to spy on Dumbledore, now how > > he was able to do that is by Snape offering to Spy on Voldemort > > for Dumbledore. That's how Snape initially gained Dumbledore's > > trust. > > ...edited... > > > > Displays of loyalty to either side by Snape mean nothing, because > > those displays of loyalty are exactly what the other side expects > > Snape to do. > Kristen: > Steve Per usual your post has me thinking; and agree with the logic > of you argument for Snape's behavior as a double agent/triple agent. bboyminn: Keep in mind that the foundation of my theory is to explain how Snape was now able to return to Voldemort. Other explanation dealing with this issue are have either been unrealistically fanciful, or have completely denied the Snape has returned to Voldemort in any capacity. My explanation makes it simple and easy for Snape to return to Voldemort. It explains away every unexplanable aspect. > Kristen continues: > However, it is based on very big assumption that Voldemort sent > Snape to spy on Dumbledore. Since there is no canon to reference it > leaves me wondering a few things > 1. What reason could Voldemort have told Double!Agent!Snape to give > to Dumbledore, to make DD believe that Snape had turned or could be > trusted? > 2. Did Snape take the double agent assignment planning to betray the > Dark lord or did something happen later that turned him? And what > made him turn. > 3. And of course the thing we all wonder how did Snape convince > Dumbledore that he can be trusted? And Can he? > 4. And last but not least does Voldemort still think Snape is > playing double agent and if so why does Voldemort still trust Snape? > bboyminn: I believe that Snape slowly infiltrated Dumbledore's organization. Although 'infiltrated' might be a misnomer. Dumbledore knew from the beginning that Snape was a Death Eater. At first Snape passed small bit of information through a intermediary. As the information proved reliable and valuable, Dumbledore's trust grew. Then at some point, some critical event occurred that both pushed Snape firmly to the good side, and cemented Dumbledore's trust in him. I feel strongly that this had something to do with the Potters, and more significantly, something to do with Lily. Although, I'm not quite sure I buy the 'Snape Loved Lily' idea in the romantic sense, though I highly suspect, the KEY event was related to that very thing. The KEY Event could have been related to Voldemort specifically coming after the Potters with the intent of also getting rid of Harry. Snape could not bare the idea of Lily being killed or being so emotionally devistated, so he revealed Voldemort's plan to Dumbledore. As a spy for Voldemort, Snape would have only leaked information that Voldemort intended Dumbledore to have. But the planned attack on Lily and Harry was more than Snape could take. Giving away this plan, was enough to convince Dumbledore of the validity of Snape's new found allegiance. This 'Snape cared for Lily' is the most common scenario, although it could have been something else. None the less, it illustrates the principle nicely. Some major event occurred that solitified Snape for Dumbledore and against Voldemort. That addesses, to some extent, your points 1.) and 3.). Obviously to your second point, Snape did not start out planning to truly join the good side, but something happened, renewed kindness by Lily or whatever, that made Snape see the error of his ways. Then some 'key event' solidified Snape position on Dumbledore's side. On point four, NO Voldemort does NOT fully trust Snape. But for now, Snape is valuable and continues to serve as a pawn in his game. I highly suspect that when Snape first return to Voldemort after his rebirth, Voldemort very strongly emphasized the point of the high price of disloyalty to Voldemort, and re-enforced his point with a series of Pain Curses just to make sure Snape didn't misunderstand. It seems reasonable that after all this time, Voldemort would have some degree of uncertainty about Snape's true loyalties, but as long as Snape can be used productively, I think he is willing to accept him, though cautiously. I do believe at some point, Snape will be called upon to make a major demonstration of his loyalty to Voldemort. I envision a scene in which Harry is captured by Voldemort (or perhaps just DEs) and Snape is given the privilege of torturing Harry. Something Snape would be force to do with great apparent glee and malice. Though ultimately and eventually, Snape will give his own life to help Harry and friends escape from Voldemort. Regardless of the circumstances, I do believe at some point Voldemort will force Snape to prove himself. Again, this is all part of the Spy Game, and Dumbledreo will have to accept this apparent betrayal as just that, part of the game. > > Kristen Again: > However, there are 2 things that make me think that if Snape was > playing a triple agent the jig is up: > 1. Voldemort tortured and controlled Barty Crouch Sr. for several > months. I think that somewhere in that time Barty would have shared > with Voldemort what ever testimony Dumbledore gave on Snape. Now I > know what you're thinking here That if Snape is a double agent > then this was part of the act so Voldemort would not care. But what > if Dumbledore had to share the real reason Snape turned not the fake > reason (Assuming they are different). bboyminn: I don't think Snape was actually put on trial, so there was no public testimony. I think behind the scenes, Dumbledore explained that Snape had spied for the good side and had proven himself valuable. But, as is typical of Dumbledore, I don't think he provided any more details than he was forced to. Dumbledore has a habit of giving very terse explanations. So, beyond what Voldemort already knew, I'm not sure how much Mr. Crouch could have told him. Given Dumbledore's habit, I don't think he spoke specifically of the Key Event that solidified Snape on the good side and further solidified Dumbledore's trust. Dumbledore likes to stick with the big picture and keep the details to himself. In addition, Dumbledore already suspected Voldemort could return, so he would have had reason to protect Snape's position. You do have a valid point, but I think Dumbledore may have foreseen the return of Voldemort and done his best to protect Snape, and that would have given Mr. Crouch little in the way of valuable inside information. > Kristen continues: > 2. When Voldemort comebacks and addresses the DE, there is a spot in > the circle where 6 are missing and he says " ... One who I believe > has left me forever he will be killed, of course ...." > > I assume the coward is Karkaroff', the 1 who left is Snape, and the > faithful servant is Barty Crouch Jr. Now it could be that Voldemort > thinks Snape is the coward and Karkaroff the one who left. > ..edited.. > > So if Snape is double/triple agent man . that leaves me wondering > is Voldemort playing Snape? > > Kristen bboyminn: No, I think Snape is the 'one who left', but the key word in that statement is 'believe'; '...the one I BELIEVE has left me forever...'. That expresses an element of doubt. It's like saying the one who I /assume/ has left me forever, or the one I /think might/ have left me forever. Voldemort can reasonable express his doubts at that time, because Snape did not return, he did no come to the graveyard when called. But Snape has reasonable and valid excuses for not coming. First, he was at Hogwarts, not an easy place to get out of. Second, if Snape plans to continue to spy on and for Voldemort, he can not abandon Dumbledore in a time of crisis. To do so would have blown his cover. I can easly see Snape approaching Malfoy after the fact for details, and making arrangements to meet with Voldemort to pledge his loyalty. Snape can reasonably explain away any doubts that Voldemort might have. And in addition, it seems reasonable that Malfoy would confirm Snape's on-going loyalty to Voldemort and the belief in the superiority of Blood. Since, Snape is a superb Occlumens, Voldemort would not be able to detect any falsehood in Snape statements. Now to conclude with your last point, Voldemort is playing Snape like a cheap fiddle, but then Voldemort is playing everyone. This pureblood nonsense is simply a way to rally the troops and appease the masses. Voldemort believes in one and only one thing - POWER; he wants it all, and the price be damned. I've said many times before that if Voldemort wins, the wizard world is in for some dark and dreary times. I see a world in ruins; infrastructure destroyed, economy destroyed, international trade destroyed, a completely chaotic disfunctional world that will ever spiral into deeper disfunction as Voldemort becomes more brutal in his efforts to maintain control. It's a world rampant with corruption and cruelty. All you have to do is look at every real-world situation of similar inception to see how much truth there is in that statement. I am desperately hoping that the Good Slytherins, I eventually hope to see, are the few greedy Slytherin who see just how BAD Voldemort will be for business. I foresee ambitious Slytherins who see Voldemort as the doom of their dreams of wealth and power, and will do everything they can to prevent such a hopelessly disfunctional and deranged ruler from taking over. A true Slytherin with the appropriate greed and ambition doesn't care if you are pureblood or pure-muggle as long as your money is good, and as long as you are willing to spend it with them. Ecomonic power is the only true power (to a 'good' Slytherin), and that only comes from a stable economy, and a reliable, stable, and predictable governement. Stability is the key to prosperity. Far too many dictators forget that. Just a few thoughts, plus a few more. Steve/bboyminn From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sun May 22 21:23:27 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:23:27 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in HBP In-Reply-To: <20050521235443.49920.qmail@web32604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129337 Harry: "But sir, why --?" DD: "Harry, I've told you everything I know about the night your parents died." Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sun May 22 21:25:01 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:25:01 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129338 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > > > > > > Mrs Norris appearing with a litter of orange furry kittnes. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > And Crookshanks is the Father. I've never seen anything to say if > crookshanks is male or female, has anyone else? Angie says: In GOF, Ron refers to Crookshanks as a "he" stating something like Hermione lets him get away with too much. From juli17 at aol.com Sun May 22 21:30:14 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 17:30:14 EDT Subject: Lusting After Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129339 potioncat wrote: > >So Snape is deliciously enjoyable because, as a literary > >character, he can get away with all the nastiness he wants and we > >can enjoy it vicariously without actually hurting anyone in the > >Real World. > >(More major snips) Kathy replied: > > This is an absolutely great theory! I know that I have much the > same disposition as Snape, just about as much patience and I can tell you > that motherhood hit me hard. I can "do" (change diapers, feed, > clothe, take them to the hospital and dentist, perform first aid) but > when it comes to "nurture", I struggle. Fortunately I have very > understanding children. It is interesting to note, while I am confessing > anyway, that my other favourite character is Dr. Gregory House, from the TV show > "House". I hugely admire anbody who can be that obnoxious and get away with > it. This must confirm something! > > KJ > Julie says: I LOVE Dr. House! What an amazing character. And I too admire how he says exactly what he thinks and get away with it. I think we'd all love to have that freedom sometimes, to tell people they're morons when that's how they're acting, etc. And I agree with potioncat that Snape also uses that technique very well, and it is sometimes very enjoyable to read. However, I don't think Dr. House and Snape are competely equatable on this issue, because we do see glimmers of House's humanity beneath his very snarky exterior. We see precious little beneath Snape's exterior. And Snape has many more secrets than Dr. House. I also think that the enjoyment of watching/reading a character get away with being blunt to the point of nastiness (as we all feel an impulse to be sometimes) isn't something specific to women, though women do suffer more social criticism for such behavior. Another thing that makes Snape fascinating, which I don't find tied to gender, is all his secretiveness. If you can't read a character, and aren't really sure what's going under the surface, that makes a character much more interesting than one who's an open book. And that is a large part of the fascination of Snape, at least for me. The one thing I do think may be far more common in women than men is the impulse to save someone. Or, more specifically perhaps, the impluse to save a man from himself. It's a big component of the romance genre, the idea that the right woman can turn a bad/ unhappy man around. And while I don't fantasize about Snape (really, he's not attractive to me in that way!), I do have a desire to see him overcome his demons and reveal at least a glimmer of goodness I believe (or want to believe) exists inside him. So, I want to see Snape saved from himself If it doesn't happen, if he turns out to be evil, or simply unable/unwilling to change and find some small satisfaction in life and with others, than I will be disappointed from a personal standpoint. As with Harry, Hermoine, Lupin, etc, etc, I'm emotionally invested in the character of Snape. That's part of the joy of reading fiction. And while I'd be happy to see Voldemort die, as well as Lucius Malfoy, and I don't really care whether Peter survives, or the Dursleys, or Draco, I do want to see Snape redeem himself in the end. I really do. But that's just me. Others may have different but equally valid conclusions for Snape that would be more emotionally satisfying for them! Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gelite67 at yahoo.com Sun May 22 21:57:57 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:57:57 -0000 Subject: Ginny's Sigificance as a Female Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129340 I can think of two reasons why we needed a female Weasley character: 1) Not to get into a shipping argument, but if Ginny is to be Harry's girlfriend, then the reason she must be a girl is obvious, since Harry seems to prefer girls. But why a Weasley? Why not any other girl? I don't have a firm, convincing answer to this, but I would think that trust would be a big issue with Harry, and it is easier for him to trust a Weasley. He is beginning to really know/trust Ginny's character. He knows and respects her family (well, except for Percy). Aside from Hermione, Harry has spent more time with Ginny than any other girl (even Cho). He can see she has backbone; she has dealt with exasperating older brothers all her life and apparently often come out on the better end. Ginny doesn't cry at the drop of a hat; she didn't dissolve into tears when SHE broke up with Micheal Corner; she toughed it out without crying when she was injured at the MOM. Also, she has competence to handle tough situations. We knew very little about Cho's magical abilities. We're learning more and more about Ginny's all the time. So, Harry's girlfriend didn't have to be a Weasley, but I think it will make it easier for him to trust/rely on her as a girlfriend because she is a Weasley. 2) Tom Riddle's diary. Obviously, Ginny did not have to be the one to get the diary in order for Riddle to use it to return, but it seems that the chances of the diary "working" would be greater if it came to be in the possession of a girl. Apparently, the person in possession of the diary had to write in the diary before Riddle could reply. More young girls than boys keep diaries. Hence, the diary went to a girl -- a young, impressionable girl, who needed a friend to confide in. But why a Weasley girl? Why not any young, impressionable girl? Because the diary and the COS incidents were also an attempt to discredit Arthur Weasley's Muggle Protection Act. There are probably other reasons, but these were the obvious ones to me. Others, anyone? Angie From sherriola at earthlink.net Sun May 22 22:13:53 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:13:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HPB -- will DD bring Harry up to par or string him along per usual? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008c01c55f1b$8aff25a0$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 129341 1)In Book 6, DD reveals everything he knows about the death of Harry's parents, Professer Snape, Voldemort, etc., and after that point, they find out new information together, or one finds out and shares with the other. Angie Sherry now: I think we'd all like to see Dumbledore give Harry more info, if for no other reason than that we want to know so much more. However, I don't think it is Dumbledore's place to spill Snape's secrets to Harry. He may encourage Snape to do so, if it will help, but it would be a huge breach of trust to do it himself, I think. Unless it's not so secret after all. But I've always felt that whatever it is about Snape, very few people know the whole story. Going by his character, I don't think Snape would be pleased to have his life story told to Harry, or anyone else for that matter. Of course, I hope Harry will learn the secret behind Snape, but I just don't think I'd want to see Dumbledore be the one to tell it. Otherwise, yes, let's all have some more information! Sherry From editor at texas.net Sun May 22 23:06:59 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 18:06:59 -0500 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape References: Message-ID: <002801c55f22$f69df140$fb59aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129342 Phoenixgod, re: Snape: > He should be thankful he gets to do that job instead of spending > quality time around dementors for the rest of his natural life. DD > went out on an incredible limb to get him hired and off the hook for > being a death eater. Honestly, his rampant ingratitude for a job > he's lucky to have is sticking point for me (one of many). Examples, please, of "rampant ingratitude"? At least as far as we have seen, Snape supports Dumbledore and Hogwarts completely, albeit gracelessly. ~Amanda From kjones at telus.net Sun May 22 22:11:59 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 15:11:59 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429103AE.2060701@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129343 bboyminn: > I think you missed the point. Snape in a sense is a double-double > agent. Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore as a double agent, > Dumbledore turned around and sent Snape back Voldemort as a double > agent; hence, double-double agent. > > Voldemort sent Snape to Dumbledore to spy on Dumbledore, now how he > was able to do that is by Snape offering to Spy on Voldemort for > Dumbledore. That's how Snape initially gained Dumbledore's trust. Kathy Writes: But Steve, nothing in the books says that Voldemort sent Snape anywhere. All we know is that Snape wears the Dark Mark and that he was a Deatheater. We also know that Snape was a spy since before the first fall of Voldemort. Voldemort would not have known at that time that Snape was a spy unless Peter Pettigrew told him We know that the Order believed that they had a spy in their midst. Nothing says that it was Snape. The books lead us to believe that it was actually Pettigrew who provided information. > snip > > Even further, each side can expect as part of the spy game, that Snape > will betray them. Ideally, it will be an orchestrated betrayal. > Dumbledore will send Snape to Voldemort with what appears to be vital > inside information. Voldemort will turn around and send Snape back to > Dumbledore with what appears to be vital DE information. Both sides > are using Snape as a chess piece to gain inside information while at > the same time disseminating misinformation. Kathy writes: If both sides are sending false information to the other in the hope of using Snape to further their own ends, what earthly use is this? They should both automatically assume that whatever information Snape is bringing both of them is misinformation. Why would Snape bother? Why would either Dumbledore or Voldemort bother? It would just take time out of their busy days to make up believable disinformation that they know will be proven false thereby eliminating Snape's usefulness as a spy. > The Philosopher's Stone and Quirrel are also irrelevant because > Voldemort never revealed himself to Snape. Snape had no way of knowing > he was working against Voldemort, so there is no way Voldemort can > consider that a betrayal; annoying, irritating, infuriating - yes, but > not a betrayal. Kathy writes: If you were a weak, vulnerable wizard, would you not approach what you believed to be a valuable helper? If Voldemort believed that Snape was loyal to him, he would have been the first person Quirrel/Voldemort approached for assistance in stealing the stone. He would have no reason to avoid Snape unless he had been told that Snape was loyal to Dumbledore. > It's likely that Malfoy being one of the few DE's with a shread of > intelligence was one of the few upper level DE that was aware of > Voldemort's plan and of what Snape was doing. So, to some extent, > Malfoy would have kept other more skeptical people off Snape's back. Kathy writes: I think, considering that Malfoy ran away from the Dark Mark during the Muggle-baiting, as did the others, that it is a pretty good indication that none of the Deatheaters, except for Crouch and the Lestranges perhaps, are particularly happy to see Voldemort back. They have all grown up, have children of their own, and have returned to Voldemort out of fear rather than faith. Even Voldemort says he has only one faithful servant. The only indication we are given in the books that Snape has a relationship with any of the Deatheaters is when Malfoy was obliged to buy new brooms for the Slytherin team to get his son on as Seeker, and Umbridge's remark about the good things Malfoy had to say about Snape. Malfoy is more likely to be playing both ends against the middle than Snape. All of the Deatheaters would have felt the mark change and all would have come to some agreement as to what they were going to do when V. returned. They would have been caught between a rock and a hard place. Some of them may well have been relieved at being sent to Azkaban. They were safe from Voldemort's demands. Snape, on the other hand has a respected place with Dumbledore, he doesn't have to put up with Voldemort other than staying out of harms way, he is respected in the Order, he has no family to be threatened that we know of and really no reason to risk his Slytherin neck by going back to Voldemort. > snips > Steve writes: > My main point is that by being a double-double agent (or whatever) > Snape's APPARENT loyalties are meaningless because they are expected > as part of the game. It's this presents of /apparent/ loyalties and > the ambiguity of true loyalties that allows Snape to be a spy. Once > again, we can give no weight to Snape's displays of loyalty to either > side because that is how the game is played. > > That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Kathy writes: Definitely stick to it. You might be right. There are clues and suggestions that could go either way. I just believe the simplest explanation is more likely than the double agent, double-double agent spy theory. Snape would have to convince Malfoy to get him back in which would risk Malfoy's precious neck. He would then have to convince Voldemort that he truly was loyal, that he had been waiting for thirteen years, selflessly waiting for the chance to spy on Dumbledore, apologise profusely for screwing up the Stone deal, convince him that Crouch was wrong about his loyalties, that Pettigrew was wrong about his loyalties, and that he didn't mean to show the Minister his Mark as a confirmation of a warning, and that Dumbledore was fooled into thinking him a spy. Please let me have more faith in JKR than that. Thank you for a lovely argument. KJ From zelvusenka1 at yahoo.co.uk Sun May 22 21:27:41 2005 From: zelvusenka1 at yahoo.co.uk (zelvusenka1) Date: Sun, 22 May 2005 21:27:41 -0000 Subject: Dark Marks and Veritaserum and so on Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129344 First sorry for my bad English... There are few things that cause me sleepless nights: Maybe somebody was already writing about it, I?m quite new here. I would like to know your opinions on my following thoughts: 1. I wonder how wizard?s justice works. Why they just don?t use veritaserum and ask? They wouldn?t have to organize any hearings. Plus it would be much easier to identify Voldemort?s supporters. - or maybe veritaserum belongs to DA as well as imperio, cause it attacks somebody?s free will. (?) Or it?s a question, how veritaserum exactly works and what is The Truth :-) 2. Dark mark: I?ve read few opinions, mentioning, that it is not just physical matter, but more likely spiritual - I rather say psychological - how much is Snape able to supress his secret thoughts (about being a spy), how mentally strong he has to be to face Voldemort, who doesn?t even use his wand to perform legillimens? Isn?t it possible that dark mark can be supressed mentally? That Snape is able to put aside for a while the piece of the "spiritual" binding he shares with Voldy? Anyway Voldemort would have to be mad (ok ok, he is, if he kills muggles and risks revealing-uncovering of wizarding world) to mark his the CLOSEST followers with something permanently visible, that it could bring them into prison so easily. (However they should be powerful enough to be able to fight a few aurors - he doesn?t take loosers in his inner circle, does he?) 3.Age. It seems that wizards have slightly different morphology - otherwise they would hardly survive those falls from the brooms or deformations of body parts (when hexed HG gets big teeth n so on). We also know that they can live very long time (I don?t count influence of Philosopher stone, but Dumbledore is around 160). It makes me think about an impact on social structure! When do wizards get really old, how do they die, what kind of sicknesses thay have - except hexes. Can they die of AIDS or cancer or heartattack? - do they smoke or have different drugs (or just teins in so much cups of tea in England?) 4.Pureblood and mudblood. Stereotypes. On what are they based in our society? Among other features is a fear of unknown - begining with dark streets ending with people of different colours, habits and beliefs. Partly they are based on long time of inequity between sexes, which is artificialy excused by different bilogical predetermination. BUT is magical power determined by sex (not gender, but sex - physical form, muscles, strenght...)? What if it is NOT? Then the main statement is: The original pureblood society would have to develop differently from muggle one... Also because of the age - wizards were living three times longer than muggle aristocracy (I don?t count peasant women, who died in 23 giving birth to their fourth or fifth child) - and so they had different life experience...longer, observing from distance the changes, longer time to find out how not to get burned by inquisitors for their differences, longer time to gain the wisdom and pass it...and pass it to wizards as well as witches! If they didn?t want to extinct, witches (mothers of next generations) had to be skilled as well as wizards. Not like in muggle world, where women gained access to universities in 19th century. They had to hide their world - mostly beacuse of religion practices of that time. Why they say "Dear Merlin" (who was a druid), and they are not saying "Oh my God" or "Oh Jesus"? Do you think, that they believe in God rather than the Nature? (God that manifested himself thru centuries in slaying civilisations with black death, permiting existence of The Church - sending the knights work on the bloodshed in the course of the holy crusades to free "His thomb"?) Why Voldemort has got such an apetite for power...he?s not afraid of somebody above or beneath this world...He?s afraid of nothingness which comes after the bodily functions stop working...that?s why his target is immortality as was stated. I don?t wonder why Malfoys hate muggles. How many of their ancestors were burned down? (or drowned, that was also popular way of death) Their stereotyped fear is pointed towards muggles, the common enemy (Hard to say if only from the past?) The best way how to uncover a secret is to involve more people. When certain wizards opened themselves to muggle world, accepting halfbloods and mudbloods, risking that muggles will notice wizarding world (for example so many kids running against the brick wall at the train station), that thay will want to gain gold, potions, power...blalbla, as people usually desire for this...and who knows it better than purebloods, watching this for centuries? To me it sounds like natural step to support Voldemort, who wants to clean Hogwarts, and whole wizarding world. Unfortunatelly the times changed and if purebloods like Malfoys would like to refresh the population, then Lucius and Narcisa would have to spend more time making babies. (I bet Lucius is green with envy when he sees Arthur Weasley?s rabbit-like hord of redhaired inheritors...inheritors of nothing valuable...i?m nasty I know, I don?t like Weasleys, however the interest in rubber duck is touching) The problem with Voldemort is, that he obviously enlarged his plans to the whole world (he is halfblood enough to be such psychopat + when you think you are immortal One world is not enough) and when he starts to include muggle killing in his plans the revelation of wizarding world is close...wasn?t that the rational impulse for Snape to leave the maniac? No loosing of close person, no crazy dead-wife-and-child theories, just brain on the right place? Halfblood - one parent wizard, one muggle. I?m not sure what caused the necessity of theese cross marriages. (?) Anyway imagine, that you marry somebody, who dies in his or hers let?s say 75-80 and you live till 150 or more? Can you marry again? You are close to the top of your magical powers, you certainly have "erotic spells and potions" at hand (in wand), you gained your reputation in whatever you do (wizarding world is quite small and media limited) ..well me as a 80 year old witch, i would need a man around 20 to fit him into the rest of my life...Can you imagine a muglle man 20 years old willing to ...marry and have sex with 80 old witch? (You know, you certaily cannot drink polyjuice potion every day, but we would have to ask the Potions master) So, she or he remains free or marries another widow or widower (wizard). The child from this cross marriage may or may not have abilities. Depends on the couple live in muggle or in wizarding world (muggle partner is quite lost without wand, back to middle ages - no electricity, quills, candles, parchments)...so this couple most probably live in muggle world...for the child it means, that it is RISED among muggles until he or she is 11 - attending schools, watching TV, playing PC games (I would go crazy in Hogwarts without my notebook)...reading magazines, watching advertisments and getting brainwashed and infected with muggle stereotypes and inventions like cellulitide, myth of beauty or power requirements on men (the foodbringers, musclemachos or electronicmasters). And this child is still lucky, cause in the evenings or at the weekends mommy or daddy (or very very old grandparents) talks about magic and future, and teaches the basics... Mudblood - both parents muggles. Tragedy I say. These parents have to lie to the people around, invent which school their child attends, what he or she is going to do in the future ("She will be the Quiddtch player?" "What?" "Broom, flying on the broom!" or "What happened to your kid?" "The testral bite of her leg, but she will be fine" "What?"...you know neighbours don?t take it well - sorry to mention it now...do you remember Dumbledore said that previous teacher Care of magical creatures left to take care of his remainig limbs? If he were DE, Voldy would give him back those limbs, it?s a pity the greatest wizard ever doesn?t have this abilities) Back to the topic... so on parental level the muggle couple gets into certain isolation, or maybe even their parents (the grandparents) may not take it well. The mudblood child is in the age of 11 ripped out of the well known world into really odd, however thrilling one, but such child already brings the mentality into his or hers interactions. I am not surprised, that Harry doesn?t meet more "opinion" obstacles. Hermione is a mudblood, so they were rised very similarly. Ron is pureblood - middle sort, but his father is crazy about muggles n "brings them home" and Molly Weasley (sorry this woman is a parody of mother, she?s there for fun, not to demonstrate real witchlike mother - I hope). In pureblood family the child gets all education at home, from parents and very old grandparents...all that reading, counting...hexing, history basics, reasons why to hate muggles. When I?m writing about pureblood I imagine Malfoy?s. Don?t know Narcissas job (could be potions...if Snape makes hints on certain "talents"), Lucius is quite bussy giving embraceries there and there and protecting sources of family gold. Young Draco (can you imagine Lucius changing smelly napkins?...i know, he probably did it from distance with wand, i doubt he would allow some dirty house elf to touch his Precious) spending plenty of time with grandparents...or studying with parents...how well he rode his broom, who taught him fly? Hardly at muggle teacher. Does the studying at home (for generations) change family relationships? And how? Are purebloods less sociable even with their own kind? Or do they meet on (in) the "sandbox"? 5. Sexual behavior. If you are alive that long, when do you think, you become impotent...110? 120? 130? Never? With right potion or spell? (Ask Snape, he will be delighted to answer) The options of satisfaction you have in wizarding world are more than in muggle one...that?s why wizards don?t have pornography. Are you surprised? WHY? One reason can be, that it would be a real trouble - wizarding population is not that big and the exposed persons would be very quickly recognized. Are wizards ashamed for nudity? Or the Church didn?t have that impact with all that crap about sin, dirty body, dirty touches and thoughts? I would be really interested in your suggestions and opinions...especially on last issue. It is important to see things with new eyes. If we are able to play with a thought that magic exists, we should be able to imagine different society, considering all influences, imaging the history, the infrastructure, the occupations, the activities they share, the things they use and things they don?t and how it forms them... Bye, Terka From lealess at yahoo.com Mon May 23 00:55:56 2005 From: lealess at yahoo.com (lealess) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:55:56 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129346 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Ron. He is unfortunately just a sidekick. He has predicted his death numerous times. He represents the "old" prejudices. He's a goner. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Hagrid. His mom is some kind of Giant royalty. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She learned a lot of dark magic from Snape, and put it to good use protecting Harry instead of herself and James, to Snape's chagrin. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Karkaroff, another wildly inappropriate second chance. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. She will just be a friend with whom he can relax, then one day they will kiss, and oops. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Arthur Weasley, whose Muggle-loving has held him back until now. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Lily's pensieve. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Sigh - yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All but one, the one interrupted in the Astronomy Tower. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. The charm which saved Harry had to do with making Lily's eyes into a mirror. 2. Snape was actually kissing Petunia when observed by Bertha Jorkins. 3. Voldemort, while now mortal, will not really die, just be absorbed into the Force. 4. Sybill and Frizenze create a mutually agreeable teaching partnership. 5. Peter's need to fulfill the life debt to Harry will destroy Peter. Lealess From skater314159 at yahoo.co.uk Mon May 23 00:56:19 2005 From: skater314159 at yahoo.co.uk (Megan) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 00:56:19 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129347 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? DD... he is going to get it in the final battle of the book, and that he and Harry will have had a tiff or misunderstanding _right before_ he dies, and this will really get to Harry. It will be more difficult on him that Sirius' death has been (see non- mandatory questions below for more). > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) The Half-Blood Prince is Hagrid, because he is half-human and half-giant. He is going to be very important to keeping non-human, half-human, human (muggle and wizard) interaction during the war peacable and (if possible) help the different groups to unite to fight Voldemort, who hates all half-bloods and creatures he cannot control. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I think that Lily and Petunia's big secret is that one of their parents was a squib, but that the two of them were both magic. Both went to Hogwarts, where Petunia was a rebel and Lily was "the good girl". They had a fight over something (a boy?) and Petunia eventually got kicked out/expelled from school, and in her anger/angst, she disowned all she knew about the WW. She married Vernon Dursley, as he is as Muggle as you can get, and then tried to live in denial of all she knows about the WW, even her sister and her family. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Harry Potter, as no others are available (I would like to see Lupin back, but I think he is doing important things for the Order now...) > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood... > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Percy Weasley... and while he may not be under the power of the Imperious, I think that he is somehow associated with the dark side/dark arts, and that his father or mum will die from his actions, and then he will try to repent of his wrong, but it will be too late... and then he will die. (in a horrid way at the hands of Voldemort) > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It is a pensieve in the department of mysteries, and Harry is looking back to the night his parents died and he lived to learn some secret about how Voldemort can be defeated. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, as he still is on the track to be an auror - and Snape will end up saving his skin, by teaching him something that comes in handy at a most unexpected time. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, he gets an O on his testing, and this gives him much confidence... and armed with a new wand, he accomplishes much. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? six. > Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. We will see how Harry deals with Sirius' death, and he begins to ask more questions about life and death. These questions make him think more about his parents' deaths and about Voldemort. DD will answer Harry as much as he can about death, but Harry won't like some of the answers or that DD doesn't tell him everything he knows. This will make Harry more upset, much like he was in earlier cases where people withheald truth from him. 2. Neville will have much to do in this story, despite what JKR says on her site about him just not being that important for the prophecy. He will have a new wand and much more confidence. We will see him act with self-confidence, but he will still have the same personality (he is shy and quiet, which is good and has nothing to do with confidence). We will see him and a girl get together too. (I love Neville, and I want him to be happy!!) :) 3. We will learn more about Snape. I think this book is where we will get answers about his background, where he came from, what made him go to the dark side, what made him become loyal to DD, and how we know Harry can trust him. 4. We will find out if Lupin or McGonnagal (sp?) are ESE!. I think that this will be the major surprise of the book, we will have signs pointing to Snape, but then in the end we will see that it was someone that we have trusted all along, and this will leave us with big questions for book seven. 5. Ron will do a smashing job at Quidditch, and even outshine Harry as the best player on the team. Ron will become the captain and lead the team to win the house cup. He and Malfoy will have a fight, over Hermione, and this will finally show Hermione that he likes her... but I dont think they will hook up. 6. Hermy and Viki (Krum that is) are still sweet on each other, but something happens to break them up. I think we will learn something about a secret Viktor has been hiding. It may even (physically) harm Hermione. 7. We get to see more of Hermione's parents, and learn something about her growing up. Skater314159 From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon May 23 03:15:46 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 03:15:46 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129348 > Julie says: However, I don't think Dr. House and Snape are competely > equatable on this issue, because we do see glimmers of House's > humanity beneath his very snarky exterior. We see precious little > beneath Snape's exterior. Ginger: I snipped away all but this bit. Snape's snarkiness had me amused, his wit won me over, but it was his humanity that clinched it. Think back to when Ginny was taken into the chamber. Snape's reaction was to "tightly grip the back of a chair" and then get on with the business at hand. Underneath, he cared. He physically betrayed himself by gripping that chair, but that one line changed my view of the character. He is not one who lets feelings get in the way of what must be done, but he has those feelings. He usually only lets his feelings out when he loses it completely (think Shrieking Shack and aftermath), but they are there. He is just so controlled otherwise that they don't show. This is important for him. We know he was at one time a spy for DD. If he is truely spying now, as the text seems to hint, keeping his feelings under wraps is conducive to his survival and his success. As one who cries the second my anger boils over (it's either that or hit someone), I envy his cool control of himself. In a battle, feelings can get in the way, even get one killed. Self-control and self-mastery are vital, and I think that's what he is trying to teach Harry. Whatever the final showdown between Harry and LV entails, I would bet money that it will not be fair. His encounters with LV so far haven't been. Harry will not be able to submit a petition for a release from battle with anyone. He will just have to grit his teeth and get on with it. Cooly and sensibly. Not with the rashness that feelings can cause if they get in the way. One of Harry's greatest assets is his ability to care and feel. This can be one of his greatest weaknesses if it is not controlled. Snape realizes this. Note the whole "fools who wear their hearts on their sleeve" speech during the Occlumency lessons. Harry has already been guilty of letting his feelings get in the way in OoP by going to the MoM despite logical warnings. I think of Anikin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi in Attack of the Clones when they were facing Count Dooku. Kenobi started to give a strategy for fighting, but was interrupted by the rash Anikin "I'm going in now". This haste cost Anikin his arm, and they lost the battle. It is this kind of rashness that Harry needs to avoid. He can't stop his feelings, nor should he, but he needs to control them. Snape has not mastered this completely (see the SS incident and when he finds Harry in his penseive), but he knows the importance of it. As always, the preceding was my opinion only. All are free to disagree and dispute. Or agree and, um, pute. Ginger, who really needs to get out and see Revenge of the Sith. From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Mon May 23 03:30:35 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 03:30:35 -0000 Subject: FILK: Play by Play Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129349 Play by Play (PS/SS, Chap. 11) To the tune of Day by Day from Stephen Schwartz's Godspell MIDI at: http://www.hamienet.com/cat303.html THE SCENE: The Quidditch Field, Harry's Quidditch debut. LEE JORDAN ? in his first-ever solo! ? gives us his .. LEE: Play by play Play by play Ollie Wood Wants me to say That he'll play more tauter He'll premiere Potter And he'll Slytherin slaughter Play by play Play by play Play by play . - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Mon May 23 03:42:53 2005 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (Shanoah Alkire) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 03:42:53 -0000 Subject: HPB -- will DD bring Harry up to par or string him along per usual? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > Regarding Book 6, I see two options: > > 1)In Book 6, DD reveals everything he knows about the death of > Harry's parents, Professer Snape, Voldemort, etc., and after that > point, they find out new information together, or one finds out and > shares with the other. > > 2) DD continues to string Harry along and provides information on > a "need to know" basis, while Harry finds out just enough on his own > to continue to put himself and his friends in harm's way. > There are always other options. If JKR is feeling particularly evil, this could happen. 3) DD promises to reveal everything to Harry, then gets killed or otherwise incapacitated before the meeting in which this would have happened in. Or this: 4) DD has obliviated himself of a bunch of the information we'd like to find out, for security & plot reasons. --Shanoah From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 23 12:08:02 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:08:02 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129351 Potioncat: snipping everything before, but using this post to keep everything in thread: First, to give credit where credit is due: I'd like to remind everyone that the opinions in this thread were stated by Porphyria in 2002. I just found them and offered them up. I think she has some intriguing ideas! In post 47924 Porphyria defended her views. I'm snipping bits and pieces, mainly comments by other posters Post 47924 Porphyria: > > Actually, my premise is wrong, since human sexual attraction is > *never* simple. :-) But I just get annoyed sometimes at the > accusation that Snape's fans only defend him because they have a > crush on him, as if a crush were somehow not connected to the > complicated depiction of a character and our imaginative and symbolic > relationship with it, our own value system, etc. snip > > I also agree with Acire's other points about the appeal of Snape's > dangerous past (kept in check since he recanted) , his bravery, and > most of all the fact that we, as readers, can fill in a lot of blanks > about his past as we see fit. :-) That point can't be stressed > enough, since it drives so much mental effort in interpretation. I > think I'd just add that the appeal of his semi-dangerousness is one > of those things that has to be explained since not all women go for > that. And again, I'd say it's because we fans identify with it a > little; we can vicariously have fun with it without necessarily being > dangerous ourselves or associating with people who are. snipping other poster's comments > Interestingly, the reason I came up with this theory is that I was > pondering the fact that 1) Snape is the product of a female author > and 2) Snape's fans are overwhelmingly female. So I wondered if JKR > put some of her dark side into Snape and how this was registering > with female readers. > > Of course what I tried to stress in saying that Snape is a cast-off > animus (for you Jungians out there) is that he's exactly what women > don't get to be. Snape isn't effeminate at all; he's tough, > aggressive, competitive, hardnosed, unforgiving, exacting, etc. > > But on the other hand, there are some feminine (or yin) aspects to > Snape's depiction, aren't there? For one thing, I find it intriguing > that his craft is the one most often associated with (female) > witches; brewing in a cauldron, as opposed to the traditional > depiction of wizards with their really big staffs. In fact, he > disdains 'silly wand waving' (because of its overly phallic > obviousness?), instead praising the 'subtle' art of potions with > their more sneaky, devious ways (and feminine symbolism). Here I'm > sort of smooshing together western "feminine" with "yin" which is > also dark, negative, the color black, the night, etc. Still, I'm > reminded of a remark of sydpad's from post #43029 where we were also > discussing Snape and wands vs. cauldrons: > > > If I was keen on feminist readings, I'd probably say something > > about the positive associations of nice 'forthright' . "male" wand > > magic, vs. sneaky, creepy, mysterious "female" *cauldron* > > magic... > snip I think Snape has a few covert feminine attributes > along with his obvious male ones. In fact, I'd be tempted to add a > 'soft, silky' voice, skinniness, long hair and flowing robes to the > list of feminine attributes, but I realize those might not strike > every person or culture as feminine (to my mind they do). Of course > nothing is entirely yin or yang... Potioncat now: I think the comment above "...and most of all, we as readers can fill in a lot of blanks about his past as we see fit..." hits a very valid point! Many readers imagine DE!Snape as having performed terrible acts against innocent people. Others imagine DE!Snape as having been disgusted by the terrible acts he saw being performed. He's probably neither as good as some of us think or as bad as others believe. She also makes a good point about Snape brewing potions, a magical trait usually associated with witches. Does anyone know of other cases where a wizard has made potions? Potioncat, hoping everyone is enjoying htis blast from the past. From ameekat at alumni.rice.edu Mon May 23 03:41:24 2005 From: ameekat at alumni.rice.edu (leilabloom82) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 03:41:24 -0000 Subject: King Harry? (was:Re: FAQ Poll Answer - Royal Word Choices (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129352 > Tonks: > I think that there are a lot of signs that there was royality in the > past history of Hogwarts and the WW...Clues like "Weasley is our King", and > Harry's dream (which I don't really remember), and the new one about > Neville being the one who almost was King. > Don't forget CoS, where there was all that business about heirs. In this case, Riddle turned out to be the Heir of Slytherin, channeled through Ginny. But perhaps Harry is an heir to something as well (something other than the contents of the Potter vault that is). -Leila From drliss at comcast.net Mon May 23 13:41:15 2005 From: drliss at comcast.net (drliss at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 13:41:15 +0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: <052320051341.14321.4291DD7B00030CF9000037F122007511509C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129353 Heh. Been a while since I posted here, but I'll play. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Well, I've still got even money on Harry, but that wouldn't be in the HBP. I'll say Dumbledore for HBP. Classic kill-off-the-mentor. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I'm not very creative here. I think it's Dumbledore again. I do think DD might be a half-blood. I also wonder if perhaps that's why he refused the Minister of Magic job- he has royal blood and prefers the concept of the Ministry to a royal government, and feels that taking the MoM position would be too much like a monarchy. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Lily had a Plan B that James and Sirius didn't know about (I think Lily wasn't so willing to trust that Sirius wasn't the traitor), and she worked with Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel to come up with some sort of charm to protect Harry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The "Old Lion Guy", who is Mr. Lupin, Sr. Come on, you KNOW this would be fun. We know about Sirius's family. We've been promised more about James's family. Why not find out a little more about Remus's family? And then the fun of Mr. Lupin, Sr. being a good enough prof (because I think they need one), but not nearly as good as his son. And Snape! Could you just imagine Snape having to work with Remus's father? C'mon. It would be SO fun. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Heh. To be honest, I don't really care. Ginny, Luna, Susan Bones, Dean, Draco the Amazing Bouncing Ferret... (well, not that one, but only because they hate each other). I'll say Ginny, just because I like Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory. I think the plot requires someone who's somewhat sympathetic, but won't make things too easy for Harry. Amos Diggory has the total potential to go Crouch Sr. on us, fighting violence with violence and getting nasty, even though his intentions are good. BUT, unlike Crouch, I think Diggory has the ability to learn from his mistakes and take the consequences. So if someone in his department can rise to that position, my vote is entirely on Diggory. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve. Not a clue as to whose. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. Where would we be without Harry and Snape? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. And he will be much happier for the fact! 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine. Not enough to be nauseating, but plenty to be competent. Other predictions: 1.) Remus and Harry are going to have it out in some way, shape, or form. Somehow someone (Remus or someone close to him) will knock it through Harry's head that Harry is not the only one grieving Sirius. They'll have some sort of conflict, and eventually (perhaps not until Book 7), they'll make up (Harry making the first move for a change) and begin to form a new relationship. However, unlike Sirius, where it was a father-thing and it was Dad's Best Friend and James's Son, Harry and Remus will have a more mentor-mentee friendship, and it will be Harry and Remus, not James's Friend and James's Kid. 2.) Peter Pettigrew will kill Remus Lupin (again, probably not until Book 7). Peter and Remus have to have a showdown at some point. One of them isn't walking away. I'm guessing it's Remus, because Peter has a life-debt to fill! 3.) That silver hand? Important, but not how you think. I don't think it will kill Remus. Instead, I think that silver hand can't transfigure, which means Peter can't change into a rat anymore. This serves to chain him even tighter to Voldemort. That's all I can think of for me. Liss [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Mon May 23 15:26:08 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:26:08 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129354 > Potioncat: snipping everything before, but using this post to keep > everything in thread: > > First, to give credit where credit is due: I'd like to remind > everyone that the opinions in this thread were stated by Porphyria in > 2002. I just found them and offered them up. I think she has some > intriguing ideas! > Neri: Potioncat, to be honest I was kind of disappointed after reading this thread. The title you chose promised something a bit juicier than annoying teenagers . More seriously now, does Porphyria's theory (while certainly interesting) really answer GulPlum's original question? He asked why Snape is considered *sexy*. I think Porphyria's theory may explain why mothers of teenagers would identify with Snape's difficulties with students, but does it explain why he's considered sexy? Neri From willsonkmom at msn.com Mon May 23 16:04:38 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:04:38 -0000 Subject: To be honest (wasRe: Lusting After Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129355 > Neri: > Potioncat, to be honest I was kind of disappointed after reading this > thread. The title you chose promised something a bit juicier than > annoying teenagers . Potioncat: To be honest, when I looked at my post the next morning, I thought to myself, "Why did I give it that title!" We'll chalk it up to the late hour and the chablis. Niri: More seriously now, does Porphyria's theory > (while certainly interesting) really answer GulPlum's original > question? He asked why Snape is considered *sexy*. I think Porphyria's > theory may explain why mothers of teenagers would identify with > Snape's difficulties with students, but does it explain why he's > considered sexy? Potioncat: To be honest again, I didn't go upthread before posting Porphyria's thoughts. So I did after reading your post. You're right. Of course she does make the point that she is looking at Snape's appeal to women readers, not necessarily his sex appeal. So, if we take out the sexiness, which JKR most likely never intended anyway, do we have a character who appeals to a woman because the character is just what she would like to be like; at least a little bit and at least sometime? (But never would of course ;-) ) Whether she's a mother at all? If you look to fanfic for readers' interpretations, you'll find quite a few now that pair Remus and Severus. Go figure. Back to Gulplum: As for Snape's sexiness: I became interested in the character when I discovered, but before I'd finished SS/PS, that Snape wasn't going to be the bad guy. I kept thinking, if he isn't the bad guy, who is, and what does that make Snape? And when it turned out that not only was he not the bad guy, he was one of the wizards protecting Harry: he really became interesting. He became sexy when I was reading a book while my kids watched the movie and this mesmerizing voice said, "I can teach you how..." So in all honesty, the appeal to Snape is the way he's written, neither nice/good nor evil/bad. The sexiness (from my point of view) is entirely Alan Rickman's fault. Here's the link to Gulplum's post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/44915 I don't recognise too many of the names of the follow-on posts. What does happen to old HPfGU members anyway? From DANCERWH86 at aol.com Mon May 23 16:18:20 2005 From: DANCERWH86 at aol.com (DANCERWH86 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 12:18:20 -0400 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: <1116852237.36915.2503.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1116852237.36915.2503.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <8C72DCA2B68C371-A6C-48F65@FWM-R43.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129356 Lealess Wrote: <<<3. Voldemort, while now mortal, will not really die, just be absorbed into the Force.>>>> I had to comment on this because you have reiterated something that I have mentioned a few times as have many others (albeit often about different characters). Maybe its just that I'm basking in the aftermath of Episode Three fever (the only other fandom that has such a place in my heart as Harry), but I'm really interested by the fact that you, me and some others have mentioned the whole being absorbed into the force thing. The reason I bring this up is because one, I think its a ver viable possibility with many characters. I believe that once someone gets so much power (like Voldemort or Dumbledore--Both on different sides of the spectrum, but highly powerful all the same) there must be something other than death. Almost that they are more magical than mortal so the body will inevitably fail and they will become something else. Another way I was thinking of it is that if you think of the force as a religious/spiritual movement then in my mind the magical spirtuality of the Wizards of the Potter world must have some kind of similar *Something* inside of them. I wonder if perhaps this idea of being absorbed into whatever power is around the characters has become some kind of archetype or pattern since the days when it was first seen (of course prevalent in Star Wars and a slight hint at the metaphors in something like Lord of the Rings). My other thought with Voldemort is that if he does have something along these lines happen what will he be in this other "form" or whatever you want to call him. Will he like, Anakin Skywalker in Return of the Jedi return to the way he was before he was corrupted or will he remain kind of like the voice of darkness for up and coming wizards (think the diary to the extreme ;) ). I guess this line of thinking would then lead us to another prediction or question about book 6/7. Will Voldemort and all his evil be destroyed by Harry in a big climatic battle and then Voldemort is killed by the boy who lived. Or will something else happen? Will Voldemort repent and destroy himself? I think its an interesting angle we haven't thought of in the past. Tom Riddle became bitter and turned evil because of his hate of his muggle father, his desire for power etc...So will it happen that Voldemort will see (in a very complex way of course) the error of his ways after all this time? I almost like to wonder about this now that my mind has been set into motion. I had always assumed that Voldemort is and always will be pure evil and Harry will kill him because he's so good. But maybe Harry's apparently imbedded goodness will come through in a different way and the love that Harry has (which has always been an important factor in the plot as far as how Harry will destroy LV) work on Voldemort in a different way? Its a lot of questions, but something that could make a very interesting twist in the story I think. But then again finals may have just fried my brain and all of this is nonsense to everyone else ;) Lindsay ~~~~~ Me: I adore having a private bath...I would die if we had communal bathrooms/showers Justine: hahaha ohh i know Me: Mine may be the size of a closet and my closet may be a metal bar next to the sink but i like it better Justine: lol it works and 'thats hott' [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 23 17:27:48 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 17:27:48 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129357 > Neri: > Potioncat, to be honest I was kind of disappointed after reading this thread. The title you chose promised something a bit juicier than annoying teenagers . More seriously now, does Porphyria's theory (while certainly interesting) really answer GulPlum's original question? He asked why Snape is considered *sexy*. I think Porphyria's theory may explain why mothers of teenagers would identify with Snape's difficulties with students, but does it explain why he's considered sexy? Pippin: You have to use your imagination a bit. When we fantasize, we become the objects of our own desire. And our desire, some of us, is that this nasty disagreeable, unfulfilled, unsexy part of ourselves which Porphyria identified and which some of us recognize in Snape, should nonetheless be desirable. And since nobody in real life is ever likely to desire it, (Who'd want Snape in love with them?) we simply have to split it off, in our imagination, and adore the persona of ever so ugly, greasy nasty Severus Snape, who is so strangely and mysteriously irresistible in a way that latent goodness (which is also ourselves) cannot explain. Or onto Alan Rickman, who has the bonus of being a movie star, and thus a more conventional object of desire, so that we don't have to admit to wanting that rejected piece of ourselves at all, because the only thing worse than being ugly, greasy, nasty and sarcastic would be ugly, greasy, nasty, sarcastic and needy. Which is fanon Snape to a T. Juicy, no? And I think JKR knows *exactly* what she's doing, though she's far too wise to embarrass her readers by admitting it. Pippin From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon May 23 18:29:31 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:29:31 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: <002801c55f22$f69df140$fb59aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129358 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Examples, please, of "rampant ingratitude"? At least as far as we have seen, > Snape supports Dumbledore and Hogwarts completely, albeit gracelessly. He botched Harry's Occlumency lessons, choosing to act like a petulant child rather than as a team player with an important mission. Amiable Dorsai From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon May 23 18:42:55 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 11:42:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050523184256.11281.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129359 Well, speaking personally I don't think it has anything to do with Alan Rickman. I liked Snape from the get-go because he was an interesting character and you never know what he's going to do in any given situation. Snape is the first three-dimensional character in the series, and makes a lot of other important characters look flat by comparison. He also gets some good bits in COS by wiping the mat with Lockhart (which looked great in the movie - Kenneth Branagh might go down in cinematic history as the only actor who ever stole not just isolated scenes but an an entire movie from Alan Rickman) and by leading the teacher attack on Lockhart in the staff room. Ditto the bit in OOTP when Umbridge demands truth serum and he turns her down; I love the bit where he gets all chatty about the problems of using poisins, as if he's one expert talking to another. I don't know if the male-female thing has anything to do with whether or not you like Snape, but I will suggest that if you find Harry a bit boring (or increasingly annoying, as I do) then you're more likely to appreciate the one character who doesn't constantly pander to the little self-centred prat. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From hexicon at yahoo.com Mon May 23 18:54:51 2005 From: hexicon at yahoo.com (Kristen) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 18:54:51 -0000 Subject: HPB prediction contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129360 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. When I read the table of contents on OotP and saw the chapter "The Only One He Ever Feared," I thought DD was a goner at the end of 5. But, to restate another poster, his move to the "next great adventure" makes him "one with the Force," though we won't know this until 7. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor. Harry will find out more about why he got the sword. The Old Lion Guy is the curator/guardian of some sort of GG secret society. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Her relationship with Snape, which was not romantic (on her part), and why it led to Snape's re-joining the good guys, which led to his seeking refuge at Hogwarts and Dumbledore's giving him the protection of a teaching position just two months before Lily died. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Snape. It's a state of emergency. Dumbledore isn't fooling around with dilettantes or bureaucrats any longer. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madam Bones. Close second is Kingsley Shacklebolt--at the least he'll get a promotion. The MoM will want someone with magical law enforcement experience. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The Pensieve in which Harry views his memories of Halloween at Godric's Hollow. (See below.) 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, though Snape won't be teaching. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. With his OWL, new wand, and new confidence and new direction (see below), helped by the fact that Snape is not teaching Potions any longer. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? As another posted stated, all but one, the one interrupted in the Astronomy Tower. Predictions (0-10 points each): 1. Harry and the OotP come to realize that things were not as they seemed on Halloween at Godric's Hollow. They realize that Harry's memories are the only source of information, so he looks into the Pensieve. He also learns something about Snape in this viewing. 2. A Weasley dies, though it's not Arthur, Ginny, or Ron. 3. Percy was not evil in the Death Eater sense in OotP. But, he loses his position at the MoM, and ashamed of his powerlessness and misplaced support for Fudge and Umbridge, he joins the Death Eaters. 4. Neville studies Healing. With his Herbology skills and his newfound Potions prowess, he sets out to cure his parents. Also, the DA needs a medical corps, especially because Hermione continues to experience problems from her injury. 5. The new, improved Neville takes up with his old Yule Ball date, Ginny. 6. Ron and Hermione continue to banter and bicker. Ron tries to impress her with a grand gesture that goes awry. Then, when he is on the verge of trying to articulate his feelings, Viktor returns to the picture. 7. Draco takes the natural step of joining the Death Eaters (I posit some sort of DE Youth group), but then is expected to do something he's not ready for, such as an act of violence against one of his own house. Although he's spoiled and snarky, he doesn't have the stomach for real evil. 8. We learn what happened to James between 6th and 7th years. He was recruited by the DE Youth group and at first didn't realize it was anything more than a lark or a prank. Lily intervened at a critical moment. From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 23 19:07:56 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:07:56 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129361 Amanda: > > Examples, please, of "rampant ingratitude"? At least as far as we > have seen, Snape supports Dumbledore and Hogwarts completely, albeit gracelessly. Amiable Dorsai > He botched Harry's Occlumency lessons, choosing to act like a petulant child rather than as a team player with an important mission. Pippin: Huh? Are you saying that a wounded person ought to show his gratitude for the care he receives by getting better, and it's rampant ingratitude if he does not? I wouldn't say an injured player who took the field at his coach's request showed a lack of team spirit, even if his injuries caused him to botch a play and injure a team mate. Especially if the coach admits he misjudged the condition of the player. Pippin From bob.oliver at cox.net Mon May 23 19:12:05 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:12:05 -0000 Subject: Annoyed with Harry (was Re: Lusting After Snape) In-Reply-To: <20050523184256.11281.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > I don't know if the male-female thing has anything to do with whether > or not you like Snape, but I will suggest that if you find Harry a > bit boring (or increasingly annoying, as I do) then you're more > likely to appreciate the one character who doesn't constantly pander > to the little self-centred prat. > > Magda > Hmmm. I think you may be on to something, there. I don't think it accounts for all of those who find Snape interesting, or even most of them. But this almost certainly describes a certain segment of the Snape fandom. I would venture to guess, however, that it is the segment of the fandom JKR would find the most puzzling. I don't say that to be a smart ass, but just as a fact. JKR has made it very clear that she adores Harry, whereas although she finds Snape an interesting character and fun to write, she thinks he is a horrible person. Putting those things together I think she is genuinely baffled as to why someone would dislike Harry and like Snape. But, JKR's own opinions aren't necessarily all that important. People have every right to have whatever opinion and reaction to characters they find genuine and honest. Whether JKR would agree with it or not is pretty much immaterial. So, given that, I'd be interested to here more on this subject -- in large part because like JKR I'm rather baffled about why anyone would dislike Harry or find him annoying. I'm also baffled as to why anyone would find Snape interesting or admirable, but we already have numerous threads going on that one. So, to those people who dislike Harry or who are annoyed with him, what is the basis of your judgment? What particularly about the character do you find objectionable? And, very importantly, how do you see your objections being resolved, or do you think the series will end at a place and with a set of judgments about Harry you will find disagreeable? Lupinlore From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Mon May 23 19:29:55 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:29:55 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Amiable Dorsai > > He botched Harry's Occlumency lessons, choosing to act like a > petulant child rather than as a team player with an important > mission. > I wouldn't say an injured player who took the field at his coach's > request showed a lack of team spirit, even if his injuries caused > him to botch a play and injure a team mate. Especially if the coach > admits he misjudged the condition of the player. If the player deliberately tosses the ball to the opposing team in a petulant snit, then the coach has a grievance, yes. Even if the "ball" was mean to him. Poor baby. Amiable Dorsai From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 23 19:50:41 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:50:41 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129364 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kgpopp" wrote: > > But he couldn't have told anything of the sort because of the > > Fidelius charm. And the information about Tibet was as much for > > Kingsley's benefit as for Sirius's, by the way. He WAS in charge of > > the Sirius-hunting. He had to present some plausible justifications > > why he had been unsuccessful so far. When Sirius was spotted at the > > platform, Kingsley, I imagine, had a very unpleasant explanations > > to do. > > > > a_svirn > > Kristen > While Mr. Malfoy spotted Sirius on the platform I hardly think he > would tell the MOM this information. So I doubt Kingsley had any > explaining to do. > > For one: Voldemort wanted to use Sirius as bait, and it would be > tricker to do if the ministry was searching London for Sirius. I > mean Harry would hardly think Sirius would go out if the MOM thought > he was in London. > > For another if Malfoy knows Sirius can transfigure into a dog it > might raise question as to how he knows this and Malfoy does not want > to arouse suspicion. Maybe you could argue that he heard it from > Fudge. But it seems unlikely that Fudge would spread Harry's story > about Sirius around since he did not believe Harry. > > And I don't think Voldemort wants the MOM to know about Kreacher. > Kreacher is not bound to Malfoy so he could be forced to spill the > bean about Malfoy and Voldemort. You seem to forget the timeline. Sirius was sighted in September when LV hadn't the slightest idea about Kreacher's existence, and couldn't even begin to hatch his sinister plans about MoM, since he hadn't yet known anything either about his bond with Harry or that Avery was misleading him on the subject of the Prophesy. As for malfoy, he didn't have to tell the MoM anything. All he had to do is to plant the information in the Prophet referring to the "reliable sources". After which he just had to mention it casually to Fudge during one his regular visits, ever so slightly implying that the whole business is damaging Fudge's reputation as a minister. Finally, he had only to drop something like: "And didn't you say that your Aururs report the he's been seen in Tibet?" Simple as that. a_svirn From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon May 23 19:55:05 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 19:55:05 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129365 > Pippin: > Huh? Are you saying that a wounded person ought to show his > gratitude for the care he receives by getting better, and it's > rampant ingratitude if he does not? > I wouldn't say an injured player who took the field at his coach's > request showed a lack of team spirit, even if his injuries caused > him to botch a play and injure a team mate. Especially if the coach > admits he misjudged the condition of the player. First of all, Snape isn't wounded. He's not a fluffy little bird with a broken wing. Snape is a bad man. A terrorist escaping prosecution by virtue of squealing on his terrorist buddies. Using a sports metaphor to describe Snape doesn't do justice to the position he is actually in. He should crawl on broken glass to thank Dumbledore every single day that he is teaching and not paying for his crimes in Dementorville. He should repay DD by doing the job the best he can, wihtout bullying the students, and making everyone around him miserable. He seems to walk around with a sneer and an I would rather be anywhere else but here attitude. I say Snape in ungrateful because there isn't much--if any--evidence that he actually is grateful for the position he has and not the one he actually deserves. phoenixgod2000 From jmrazo at hotmail.com Mon May 23 20:00:08 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:00:08 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: <20050523184256.11281.qmail@web53106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > He also gets some good bits in COS by wiping the mat with Lockhart > (which looked great in the movie - Kenneth Branagh might go down in > cinematic history as the only actor who ever stole not just isolated > scenes but an an entire movie from Alan Rickman) and by leading the > teacher attack on Lockhart in the staff room. Ditto the bit in OOTP > when Umbridge demands truth serum and he turns her down; I love the > bit where he gets all chatty about the problems of using poisins, as > if he's one expert talking to another. I actually like Snape in those scenes as well. He's very funny and dare I say--almost likeable when he is snarking to his equals or superiors. Unfortuanately there is far to little of that and far more of him picking on students--people who have no recourse against him. its not cool then, its just cowardly. > I don't know if the male-female thing has anything to do with whether > or not you like Snape, but I will suggest that if you find Harry a > bit boring (or increasingly annoying, as I do) then you're more > likely to appreciate the one character who doesn't constantly pander > to the little self-centred prat. What do you have against harry? He's a good guy getting jerked around by way too many people. I would be pissed all the time too if I were him. phoenixgod2000 From DANCERWH86 at aol.com Mon May 23 20:08:00 2005 From: DANCERWH86 at aol.com (Lindsay!!) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 20:08:00 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129367 phoenixgod2000 wrote: <<< a broken wing. Snape is a bad man. A terrorist escaping prosecution by > virtue of squealing on his terrorist buddies. Using a sports metaphor > to describe Snape doesn't do justice to the position he is actually > in.>>>>> I agree that his crime was a little more serious than the originally presented sports metaphor. But I'm not so sure that equating Snape as a terrorist informant may be a bit harsh as well. Yes, we believe he must have done awful things and he was friends with people in the group. The Death Eaters as a whole are terrorists by nature, but I don't believe we know enough about Snape's specific involvement to dimish all of his saving graces. You're making him guilty by association for all of the crimes committed. Single- handedly, he probably means far less to the DEs than he does to the Order.That would be like saying that in historical context any person who acts within every group is as bad as the group as a whole. We still can't rule out that Snape was pressured by family or obligation to join. Whatever he did in the DE was wrong, but without more details we can't say full stop he was a terrorist and we can't say that whatever brought him to seeing the light does make a big difference to our perception of his gratitude, in my opinion. phoenixgod2000 Wrote: <<<< there isn't much--if any--evidence that he actually is grateful for > the position he has and not the one he actually deserves.>>>> Well maybe that is precisely why he isnt' grateful. Perhaps he wishes he was thrown in Azkaban or killed. Perhaps he feels he is getting off to easy and that is why he shows such disdain for life. Also, I feel overall he is on a personal level grateful to Dumbledore. Just because someone isn't nice to everyone doesn't mean they aren't grateful. I think overall we still have a limited perception of Snape and details will make the difference. Lindsay From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 23 21:18:48 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 21:18:48 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129368 Phoenixgod2000 > First of all, Snape isn't wounded. Pippin: Dumbledore says he is and that he, Dumbledore, made a mistake to forget it. And since Dumbledore has all the facts and we don't, I'm inclined to trust him on this. Dumbledore is not usually wrong about people, provided they're not concealing ill will. Snape's malice is right out in the open, not concealed at all. It may be illmannered, but it's also a poor foundation for treachery. Phoenixgod2000: Snape is a bad man. A terrorist escaping prosecution by virtue of squealing on his terrorist buddies. Using a sports metaphor to describe Snape doesn't do justice to the position he is actually in. He should crawl on broken glass to thank Dumbledore every single day that he is teaching and not paying for his crimes in Dementorville. Pippin: He may be crawling on broken glass; it would account for his disposition. Since we don't know what Snape did for Voldemort, and have only the vaguest idea what he's done for the Order, besides botching the Occlumency (and I'd have to say that Harry is at least as responsible for that as Snape is) and saving Harry's life (twice now) it seems a bit, well, lopsided to say that he hasn't done as well for the Order as he did for Voldy. Of course Harry's just a kid and shouldn't be expected to share responsibility --except that if he were just a kid, he wouldn't have been tasked to learn occlumency in the first place. The young man who's acting like a petulant child in OOP has his name and picture on the cover, IMO. Pippin From fiscused at yahoo.com Mon May 23 22:01:12 2005 From: fiscused at yahoo.com (fiscused) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:01:12 -0000 Subject: Ginny's Sigificance as a Female In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > Also, she has competence to handle tough situations. We knew very > little about Cho's magical abilities. We're learning more and > more about Ginny's all the time. I just love that Ginny outflew Cho in the final Quidditch Match. Cho could use the excuse that she wasn't "on her game", but I think Ginny could take her any day! Ginny's strength comes from being that "only girl/youngest child" and having to make her own way. She really shows more ability to handle the "Weasley legacy" than Ron. Ginny has easily become my favorite character outside the "trio". I find it hard to have a favorite from our leading 3, since each has such interesting qualities. But beyond H/R/H Ginny is really shining. I'd think Harry would have some difficulty recapturing her affections at this point. One last thought (I'm rambling a bit). Cho seems to me presented as if she can have any guy she wants (not that she's stuck up--just that she's beautiful and talented). But if Ginny's ex can date Cho, it implies Ginny has that attractive quality also. (Or she's just as cute, which is really the number one quality teenage boys care about.) That's all I have for now, Nev From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon May 23 22:20:21 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:20:21 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129370 >>Potioncat: >First, to give credit where credit is due: I'd like to remind everyone that the opinions in this thread were stated by Porphyria in 2002. I just found them and offered them up. I think she has some intriguing ideas!< ). GoF piles it on even thicker. Snape's not just a bad boy, he's a BAD BOY. What Lee said about Fake!Moody? The "He *knows, man" comment? (OotP p. 208) Total bull-crap about Fake!Moody. That man didn't know jack. He's the DE's punk-ass. But Snape? Oh yeah, Snape *knows*. He's been there, done that, and ready to go do it again. Something so dangerous, even Dumbledore hesitates in giving him his task. The courage, the stoicism, the sexy! In OotP we learn that Snape was his school's geek. The punching bag, the scape-goat, the abused child. His nickname gave us some hints. You don't get the moniker "Snivellus" without your peers either catching you crying or making you cry. A lot. (As passionate as Snape is, I can imagine the eleven year-old version having a hard time not crying with rage while being picked on by a gang of Gryffindors.) We get more hints from Harry's little forays into Snape's memories. His home life was not good. He was laughed at in school. And then, in an act of breath-taking sneakiness, Harry dips into Snape's worst memory. And it is bad. Snape, we learn, was the Hogwarts' Longbottom of his generation. But without a group of peers to protect him, and with two Draco Malfoys to contend with. True, this particular Longbottom had teeth. He drew blood. But he paid, and dearly. Friendless and bullied Snape suffered the sort of humiliation that gave boarding schools a bad name. And yet, he still had the moral integrity to leave those who accepted him and join with his enemies to help overthrow a greater evil. Sirius *wishes* he were this tough, this much a mixture of tragic and cool. And people say it's all just Alan Rickman. Pshaw, I say. Yes, his voice is *perfect*, but he's unfortunately a little too old (as most of the adult actors are) for the part. I do like Rickman, but his Snape is not mine. And despite a sad lack of Snape in the last film, the Snape fandom is still going strong. So it ain't all Rickman. (I heard a rumor that JKR actually wanted Tim Roth for the role. Can't source it though, so take it as you will.) Seriously, JKR *has* to describe Snape as ugly. She has to run around exclaiming, "Snape is just horrible!" and other such stuff. Otherwise Snape would completely steal the show, and the books would have to be renamed, "Severus Snape, The Man Who Launched A Thousand Fanfics". Or maybe more simply, "Severus Snape, The Man Who Is The Sexy." Betsy, who thanks Potioncat for looking up those really cool posts. From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Mon May 23 22:49:48 2005 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 22:49:48 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: Snape is a bad man. A terrorist escaping prosecution by > virtue of squealing on his terrorist buddies. Using a sports metaphor > to describe Snape doesn't do justice to the position he is actually > in. He should crawl on broken glass to thank Dumbledore every single > day that he is teaching and not paying for his crimes in > Dementorville. > phoenixgod2000 Whiz: You are my new best friend. It's my belief the reason Dumbledore trusts Snape with Harry, (and little else, for good reason), is that Snape is a DE and he will be the DL's servant until one of them is dead. Snape knows enough of the prophesy to realize that his only hope of freedom from the DL is James Potter's son. From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Mon May 23 22:51:30 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 15:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Annoyed with Harry (was Re: Lusting After Snape) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050523225130.52573.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129372 --- lupinlore wrote: > So, to those people who dislike Harry or who are annoyed with him, > what is the basis of your judgment? What particularly about the > character do you find objectionable? And, very importantly, how do > you see your objections being resolved, or do you think the series > will end at a place and with a set of judgments about Harry you > will find disagreeable? Harry's Objectionable Points: 1. He doesn't ask questions about his parents or his family. Yes, I know the Dursleys discouraged question-asking but you'll notice he's managed to ignore just about every other lesson the Dursleys taught him so why hang on to this? Personally I think it's a plot device because we're supposed to learn a lot about James and Lily in Books 6 and 7, and I'll accept that but it does make Harry seem incredibly incurious about something every other kid would be asking everyone in sight about. 2. He doesn't appreciate his friends enough. At the end of OOTP, when he visits Ron, Ginny, Hermione in the hospital wing there is not one moment when he thinks that he could have got these friends killed because of his stubborn refusal to really listen to Hermione's very reasonable objections. Yes, he's grieving but he's lived with and known these kids for years; they should be at least as important to him as a distant godfather who he hardly ever spent time with or talked to. 3. For a kid who's not selfish or mean-spirited, it's amazing how clueless he can be about the big picture. Once he experienced Umbridge's "lines", he should have hightailed it to McGonagall immediately and told her about it, realizing that if she did it to him, she'd do it to everyone else too. With Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius telling him how important occlumency was, he should have gone to the library and looked up the subject in an encyclopedia or book; instead he just - did nothing. Still amazes me. Snape explained to him before the first lesson about the danger of Voldemort being inside his head; from his questions to Snape it's clear Harry understood and then promptly forgot the answers. 4. His lack of support for Ron in GOF and OOTP. Ron was hurting in GoF, thinking that Harry had cut him out of things; Harry never tried to get past Ron's barriers but instead got behind his own protective shield too, culminating in his yelling at Ron in the Common Room and throwing something at him, telling him that now he'd have his own scar too. Harry deserved a kick for that. When they did make up, it was Ron who came around on his own and apologized. As for OOTP, I think Harry could have done more for Ron's misery during the fall term when he was so bad at Quidditch and when he was trying to be a Prefect. At the very least Harry could have told the twins to ease up on the ragging; it's clear that Ron's fear of what the twins will say is a big part of his worries. Ron has his best game after the twins leave Hogwarts - coincidence? I think not. But again he did it largely on his own. 5. Just do your damn homework already. Sheesh. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon May 23 23:06:49 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 16:06:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008501c55fec$1a5a8e30$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 129373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: Snape is a bad man. A terrorist escaping prosecution by > virtue of squealing on his terrorist buddies. Using a sports metaphor > to describe Snape doesn't do justice to the position he is actually > in. He should crawl on broken glass to thank Dumbledore every single > day that he is teaching and not paying for his crimes in > Dementorville. > phoenixgod2000 Sherry now: Oh my gosh, I cannot believe I find myself in a position to defend Snape. First off, let me state categorically, that I do not think Snape is sexy and wouldn't lust after him for any reason. I think he is twisted and emotionally abusive and shouldn't be let near children. His treatment of Neville is disgraceful, and shame on Dumbledore for allowing it. I've been emotionally abused, and Snape's treatment of Neville is a darn good example of emotional abuse. However, that being said, I find myself compelled to defend Snape. I believe that Snape is grateful to Dumbledore. i can't quote chapter and verse, because all my books are packed away, but it's more of an overall feeling I get from reading Snape. If Snape is loyal to anyone at all, he's loyal to Dumbledore. Unless we've been totally fooled and he ends up being truly ESE, that is. I believe that whatever Dumbledore did for him or knows about him or has accepted about him, Snape feels a fierce sense of loyalty to him and would not betray him under any circumstances. I can lay a lot of things at Snape's door, but lack of gratitude or loyalty to Dumbledore is not one of them. Wow, I can hardly believe I just wrote all that! Sherry From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Mon May 23 23:12:48 2005 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:12:48 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > Dumbledore says he is and that he, Dumbledore, made a mistake to > forget it. And since Dumbledore has all the facts and we don't, I'm > inclined to trust him on this. Dumbledore is not usually wrong about > people, provided they're not concealing ill will. Snape's malice is > right out in the open, not concealed at all. It may be illmannered, > but it's also a poor foundation for treachery. Whiz: Dumbledore has a reputation for not being exactly forthcoming. I'm sure that what he said is true, but I doubt it's the whole story. > Pippin: > > He may be crawling on broken glass; it would account for his > disposition. > > Since we don't know what Snape did for Voldemort, and have only the > vaguest idea what he's done for the Order, besides botching > the Occlumency (and I'd have to say that Harry is at least as > responsible for that as Snape is) and saving Harry's life (twice now) > it seems a bit, well, lopsided to say that he hasn't done as well > for the Order as he did for Voldy. > > Of course Harry's just a kid and shouldn't be expected to share > responsibility --except that if he were just a kid, he wouldn't have > been tasked to learn occlumency in the first place. > > The young man who's acting like a petulant child in OOP has his name > and picture on the cover, IMO. > > > Pippin What if Harry is being affected by either a potion and/or the confundus charm? I don't believe that Snape is loyal to either Voldemort or Dumbledore. I think he is one of the disenchanted purebloods who, while opposed to Dumbledore on all other issues, are willing to work with him against their common enemy in Voldemort. But I also think that if Snape could figure out how to kill Voldemort himself, he'd have Harry killed and the purebloods would attempt to take over the MoM. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Mon May 23 23:39:42 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:39:42 -0000 Subject: HPB -- will DD bring Harry up to par or string him along per usual? In-Reply-To: <008c01c55f1b$8aff25a0$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" wrote: > > 1)In Book 6, DD reveals everything he knows about the death of > Harry's parents, Professer Snape, Voldemort, etc., and after that > point, they find out new information together, or one finds out and > shares with the other. > > Angie > > Sherry now: > > I think we'd all like to see Dumbledore give Harry more info, if for no > other reason than that we want to know so much more. However, I don't think > it is Dumbledore's place to spill Snape's secrets to Harry. He may > encourage Snape to do so, if it will help, but it would be a huge breach of > trust to do it himself, I think. Unless it's not so secret after all. But > I've always felt that whatever it is about Snape, very few people know the > whole story. Going by his character, I don't think Snape would be pleased > to have his life story told to Harry, or anyone else for that matter. Of > course, I hope Harry will learn the secret behind Snape, but I just don't > think I'd want to see Dumbledore be the one to tell it. > > Otherwise, yes, let's all have some more information! > > Sherry Angie again: Good point about the privacy issue, but Harry is hardly willing to believe anything that Snape says. I also have a hard time picturing Harry sitting quietly long enough to hear whatever Snape has to say. My last comment is that sometimes issues of security outweigh issues of privacy. If DD feels that information should be given to Harry for his own protection, or for the good of the Order, I don't think he'd hesistate to divulge it. Snape, as a member of the Order, should be willing to sacrifice a little privacy if it will help bring down Voldemort. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Mon May 23 23:42:44 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:42:44 -0000 Subject: HPB -- will DD bring Harry up to par or string him along per usual? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shanoah Alkire" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" > wrote: > > Regarding Book 6, I see two options: > > > > 1)In Book 6, DD reveals everything he knows about the death of > > Harry's parents, Professer Snape, Voldemort, etc., and after that > > point, they find out new information together, or one finds out and > > shares with the other. > > > > 2) DD continues to string Harry along and provides information on > > a "need to know" basis, while Harry finds out just enough on his > own > > to continue to put himself and his friends in harm's way. Shanoah replied: > > > There are always other options. If JKR is feeling particularly evil, > this could happen. > > 3) DD promises to reveal everything to Harry, then gets killed or > otherwise incapacitated before the meeting in which this would have > happened in. > > Or this: > > 4) DD has obliviated himself of a bunch of the information we'd like > to find out, for security & plot reasons. > Angie again: Ooooh, fiendish thinking! I love it! Or perhaps the information is stored in another Pensieve that gets broken beyond Reparo and is lost. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Tue May 24 00:13:23 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:13:23 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ Poll- Ambiguity in the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129377 S P O I L E R ! I found it intriguing that JKR seems to apply a straightforward analysis of the prophesy to the facts as we at least think we know them (i.e., LV marked Harry by trying to kill him, etc.); yet, she admitted the prophecy remains ambiguous to her fans and to her characters. Her characters, hmmm. The only characters that we know for certain know about the prophecy are DD and Harry and the prophecy-keeper (Wonder who that is and why LV didn't go after him?). Sybill acted like she didn't know about the prophecy she made in POA, so I assume it was the same for the other prophecy. While there may be others who are/were aware of the prophesy we haven't been told who they are. Harry hasn't really had time to digest the prophesy yet, although based on Jo's response to the poll question, he mulls it over in HPB. No biggie for me there. And I seriously doubt that Jo was referring to the prophesy keeper. But what about DD? Is the prophesy still ambiguous to him, or does he think he has it all figured out? Could this be Jo's way of hinting that DD may be wrong in his interpretation, still yet? Angie From jmrazo at hotmail.com Tue May 24 00:26:37 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:26:37 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: <008501c55fec$1a5a8e30$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129378 > Sherry now: > However, that being said, I find myself compelled to defend Snape. I > believe that Snape is grateful to Dumbledore. i can't quote chapter and > verse, because all my books are packed away, but it's more of an overall > feeling I get from reading Snape. If Snape is loyal to anyone at all, he's > loyal to Dumbledore. Unless we've been totally fooled and he ends up being > truly ESE, that is. I believe that whatever Dumbledore did for him or knows > about him or has accepted about him, Snape feels a fierce sense of loyalty > to him and would not betray him under any circumstances. I can lay a lot of > things at Snape's door, but lack of gratitude or loyalty to Dumbledore is > not one of them. I agree with you Sherry that Snape is most likely personally loyal to Dumbledore. I don't think he is going to be suddenly revealed as evil or anything like that. I'm just not that lucky. but there is a difference between that and being grateful as far as I am concerned. If I am given a second chance by someone and put in a postion of incredible responsibility (like a teacher) I do not honor that choice by doing the job that Snape does with his attitude. you do it with gusto, as a form of thanks, that you have a second chance. Snape acts like he would rather be doing something else, which is an ungrateful attitude as far as I was raised. phoenixgod2000 From willsonkmom at msn.com Tue May 24 00:40:06 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:40:06 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129379 Phoenixgod2000 wrote: > I agree with you Sherry that Snape is most likely personally loyal > to Dumbledore. I don't think he is going to be suddenly revealed as > evil or anything like that. I'm just not that lucky. but there is a > difference between that and being grateful as far as I am > concerned. If I am given a second chance by someone and put in a > postion of incredible responsibility (like a teacher) I do not honor > that choice by doing the job that Snape does with his attitude. you > do it with gusto, as a form of thanks, that you have a second > chance. Snape acts like he would rather be doing something else, > which is an ungrateful attitude as far as I was raised. Potioncat: Well, we don't know what he did as a DE. We don't know his story which DD has accepted. But we do know that after he returned to the good side, he put his life at great risk to help DD. Then he has remained at Hogwarts, either out of gratitude or for protection or out of duty, it's not clear to us. I think for Snape teaching Potions for 15 years would not be his first choice of careers. But I don't think we know whether he is grateful for his second chance. Or whether he feels he's more than made up for his mis-deeds. Or neither. Come to think of it, earlier this year, someone commented that he didn't seem contrite over his past. But in both cases, I would say we just don't know. It's been 15 years now. As for teaching, maybe Snape is giving it his full gusto. Very few of us like his teaching style, but he may be doing what he considers to be a good job at it. I feel like I'm talking in circles. From rnbowgrrrl at charter.net Tue May 24 01:10:49 2005 From: rnbowgrrrl at charter.net (Arynn Octavia) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 01:10:49 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: <052320051341.14321.4291DD7B00030CF9000037F122007511509C9C07049D0B@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129380 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I'll guess Dumbledore for the adults. As for the students, I think it will be a member of the DA. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) No clue here. But I'm guessing he's related to Lily > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She's not actually a muggle born, perhaps only Petunia's half sister. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The "Old Lion Guy", named McClaggan. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It's a pensive, either belonging to someone realted to Lily, or the HBP. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He definitely got Transfiguration, Charms, Potions, DADA, Astronomy, and Care of Magical Creatures. I don't think he got Divination or History of Magic. He will NOT be taking History of Magic any more. > Other predictions: The DA will continue and more students will join. Harry's leaving Privet Drive early to stay with the Weasleys will have something to do with the twins. Percy will have a better relationship with his family, but it will be strained. From miss_sarah_kim at yahoo.com Tue May 24 00:54:03 2005 From: miss_sarah_kim at yahoo.com (Sarah!!) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 00:54:03 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129381 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I really think that Peter might be the one. Maybe near the end when Harry is having a showdown with LV Peter will step up and repay his blood debt. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) I am going to go with Aberforth. Maybe him and DD are disantly related to Godric Gryffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) There is no big secret. Just a little more information on her and James' relationship. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The old lion guy, who is going to be the husband of McGonagall. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I am keeping my fingers crossed for Ginny. Although he is going to develop feelings for her in 6 and go for it in 7! 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Marietta Edgecombe relative in the Ministry. (she was the girl who snitched in OoP about the DA) 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A collection from ALL the headmasters at hogwarts. Shall we call it the "Head Pensive"? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Much to Snapes dismay, yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Alas poor Nevy...he will have to. His studies for Herbology requires it. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Lets say 10. Oh I can't wait to find out! Other predictions: 1) Harry will finally start to appreciate his friends a little more. And come to an understanding with DD. 2) Hopefully we will find out more about the teachers lives. Like spouses and what they do when Hogwarts is let out for the summer and holidays. 3) There will be a wedding. Maybe Bill and Fleur will get hitched and Harry is leaving the Dursleys early for it. Okay. That is all I can think of right now. Maybe after I think about it for a little bit I will come back! From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue May 24 01:28:53 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 21:28:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Annoyed with Harry (was Re: Lusting After Snape) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129382 In a message dated 5/23/2005 5:56:32 PM Central Standard Time, mgrantwich at yahoo.com writes: 4. His lack of support for Ron in GOF and OOTP. Ron was hurting in GoF, thinking that Harry had cut him out of things; Harry never tried to get past Ron's barriers but instead got behind his own protective shield too, culminating in his yelling at Ron in the Common Room and throwing something at him, telling him that now he'd have his own scar too. Harry deserved a kick for that. When they did make up, it was Ron who came around on his own and apologized. IMO the actual prat in this matter was Ron. In Three years of friendship . .from the moment he and Harry had sat together on the Hogwarts Express eating their way through a load of sweets, Harry had never done anything to given Ron reason to suspect him of disloyalty. Ron on the other hand, despite being at Harry's side when his life was threatened/in danger for 3 straight years immediately jumps to the conclusion that Harry wants more fame/money . .whatever. Even after Ron much needed apology Harry still felt a need to mind what he said to avoid setting Ron off again. As for OOTP, I think Harry could have done more for Ron's misery during the fall term when he was so bad at Quidditch and when he was trying to be a Prefect. At the very least Harry could have told the twins to ease up on the ragging; As I recall the twins didn't give Ron any grief over Quidditch. And Ron avoided all Pretect responsibilities were they were concerned so it couldn't have been that. Hect they didn;t torment him nearly as much as they ddi PercyE it's clear that Ron's fear of what the twins will say is a big part of his worries. Ron has his best game after the twins leave Hogwarts - coincidence? I think not. But again he did it largely on his own. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Tue May 24 04:39:02 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Mon, 23 May 2005 23:39:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape References: Message-ID: <001401c5601a$83bdd700$6b58aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129384 PhoenixGod: > First of all, Snape isn't wounded. He's not a fluffy little bird with > a broken wing. Snape is a bad man. A terrorist escaping prosecution by > virtue of squealing on his terrorist buddies. Using a sports metaphor > to describe Snape doesn't do justice to the position he is actually > in. He should crawl on broken glass to thank Dumbledore every single > day that he is teaching and not paying for his crimes in > Dementorville. He should repay DD by doing the job the best he can, > wihtout bullying the students, and making everyone around him > miserable. He seems to walk around with a sneer and an I would rather > be anywhere else but here attitude. I say Snape in ungrateful because > there isn't much--if any--evidence that he actually is grateful for > the position he has and not the one he actually deserves. I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. This discussion seems to assume that teaching is Snape's job. I disagree. I believe that Snape is at Hogwarts, and has been at Hogwarts, simply to stay close at hand and available to Dumbledore until such time as an opportunity to do his *real* job comes along. He's doing it now. Teaching happened to fill the time, and it's probably real handy that Snape is a master at something, but if Dumbledore ran a coffee shop, Snape would have spent the last 14 years making latte. And being nasty to the customers, and not doing anything to overtly display gratitude than to come to work every day, go through the motions of fulfilling the duties given to you when your heart is not in it, and support the leader who had faith in you and trusts you. And frankly? If I had to spend 14 years attempting to teach calligraphy to students who were poking each other with the pens; or 14 years attempting to teach poetry to students who had souls of lead; or 14 years teaching singing to the tone-deaf--I'd probably get a little visibly sadistic. Up until recently, Harry has been in no position to see Snape interacting with Dumbledore in any capacity that would tell him anything about their relationship outside the Hogwarts administrative structure. That is not a good sampling for a sweeping justification of Snape's internal attitude towards Dumbledore. The fact remains, that in OoP Dumbledore asked the two of them, Snape and Harry, to interact in a different way--not Hogwarts teacher/student, but fellow fighters against Voldemort. In fact, the Hogwarts relationship was used to hide the true purpose. And Snape did what I believe to be his flawed best, even though he was putting himself at risk--and Harry behaved like a child with no awareness of the stakes or magnitude. Pippin said it: "The young man who's acting like a petulant child in OOP has his name and picture on the cover, IMO." I'd agree. I think Snape was playing a *very* dangerous game with the Occlumency lessons, and the only reason Dumbledore allowed it was (a) Snape is the only one as skilled as he and the best teacher was needed; and (b) the dangers of allowing Voldemort free access to Dumbledore (and thus the entire Order and resistance) outweighed the dangers to Snape. The needs of the many, and all. I don't blame Snape a bit for his frustration, since Harry manifestly does not apply himself and allows his own mistrust to get in the way of making any progress, to the endangerment not only of Snape but of the entire struggle against Voldemort. I am unconvinced that Snape's willingness to try, in the face of personal risk, and his frustration that Harry was neither concentrating nor making progress toward the goal, typify ingratitude in any form. It's a fact that, of all the things Snape does or says in all five books thus far--not *one* can be ascribed with any certainty to a clear motive. And most can be ascribed, with supporting arguments, to motives that differ dramatically. So asking for examples is a bit unrealistic, but I ask again: can you show me *interpretations* of specific actions that would build a case for ingratitude throughout the sweep of the books? ~Amanda From kempermentor at yahoo.com Tue May 24 06:14:56 2005 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:14:56 -0000 Subject: Annoyed with Harry (was Re: Lusting After Snape) In-Reply-To: <20050523225130.52573.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > --- lupinlore wrote: > > > So, to those people who dislike Harry or who are annoyed with him, > > what is the basis of your judgment? What particularly about the > > character do you find objectionable? And, very importantly, how do > > you see your objections being resolved, or do you think the series > > will end at a place and with a set of judgments about Harry you > > will find disagreeable? > > Magda: Harry's Objectionable Points: > < read up thread for some well thought out points> Kemper: I think Magda points out Harry's character flaws well. To sum her points: He's generally inconsiderate and self involved. Really, I don't see why Ron hangs around. I absolutely hate ship-threads but can see why some readers are Harry/Hermione shippers because of their similar flaws. But, should they hook up, I don't think it would last because of their flaws. Again, I couldn't care less about shipping. I want desperately to like Harry because I like his tale. Or rather, I like the people in his tale and their interactions within his story: Ron, Neville, the Twins, Luna, Ginny, McG (I hope she isn't a spy that another post suggested and argued well), Arthur, Molly, Hagrid, Lupin, Mrs. Figg, Sprout, Flitwick, Crookshanks, Doby, Firenze, and others. Notice, Lupinlore, that I didn't add Snape. I find him interesting but I don't like or admire him. Kemper From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 24 06:16:33 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 06:16:33 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ Poll- Ambiguity in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129386 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > > ... JKR ... admitted the prophecy remains ambiguous to her fans and > to her characters. > > Her characters, hmmm. ...edited... > > But what about DD? Is the prophesy still ambiguous to him, or does > he think he has it all figured out? Could this be Jo's way of > hinting that DD may be wrong in his interpretation, still yet? > > Angie bboyminn: I think a lot of people know ABOUT the Prophecy. A few others know the Prophecy itself, but only in summary form. A very very few others including Dumbledore, of course, know the Prophecy in detail. For example, I think members of the Order and assorted relevant members of the government know ABOUT the Prophecy and some of them, to varying degrees, know what the Prophecy says. I think there is probably a small group of peope who have had the Prophecy fully explained to them, and I think an even smaller number who know it in it's entirety. Dumbledore is not real big on giving anyone any more details than they need to know. You could say he plays his cards very close to the chest. I think one of the reason the Ministry monitors Harry so closely is because they know /about/ the Prophecy; they know that relatively speaking, Harry is the 'chosen one'. That makes Harry very valuable to the future of the wizard world, and that certainly explains why they have indulged him to some extent. To me, it makes far more sense for them to value, protect, and indulge Harry for who and what he /will be/ in future, rather than for what he has done in the distant past. But beyond the fact that Harry is prophesied to defeat the Dark Lord, I don't think the Ministry knows much more, because, in Dumbledore's eyes, that's all they need to know to do their job. Members of the Order have similar but not identical knowledge of the Prophecy, but again, it's no more than they need to do their job. As far as JKR commenting that the Prophecy is ambiguous to her characters, YES, I very much think she means Dumbledore. Prophecies are never straight forward, and rarely make true sense until after the fact. Many of us here have speculated that Dumbledore has indeed made a miscalculation in his interpretation of the Prophecy. In addition, as far as we know at this point, Harry and Dumbledore are the only living people who know the Propehcy in it's entirety. There may be others, but these two we know. However, it seem very reasonable that at some point in the next book Harry is going to confide in Ron and Hermione. Further, at some point, I expect Harry and Neville to have a discussion on the matter. So those are additional character to whom the Prophecy will be 'ambiguous'. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue May 24 08:10:19 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 08:10:19 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" wrote: I'm just not that lucky. but there is a > difference between that and being grateful as far as I am > concerned. If I am given a second chance by someone and put in a > postion of incredible responsibility (like a teacher) I do not honor > that choice by doing the job that Snape does with his attitude. you > do it with gusto, as a form of thanks, that you have a second > chance. Snape acts like he would rather be doing something else, > which is an ungrateful attitude as far as I was raised. Gerry: What has gratefulness got to do with this? We all know he is a crappy, abusive teadher. He is not a nice person, period. He is not interested in having the little childeren reaching their full potential. He does not have the talent, and does not have the empathy, the latter probably because of his own experiences when he was at school. No amount of gratefulness can change that. Now he does have the talent to keep a class silent and listening. He does have the talent to let them reach high results in their OWLS. And he uses that. I'm sure he does the best job he can, in the best way he knows to. There is a difference between being thankful and being good at your job. Gerry From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue May 24 11:36:49 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 11:36:49 -0000 Subject: Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129388 What I *want* to see: 1. Sirius Cleared. 2. Sirius back. (That Veil-business... DID he die, or is it just something that everyone is supposed to think -- in order for Sirius Cleared to happen?) 3. Harry needs to learn Occlumency/Legilimency; he needs to be told off about that intent of using Unforgivable... and to be loved. Spend some time with Sirius. 4. I want some goodie to surprise/oppose Albus Dumbledore... and to give him those socks. Aberforth maybe. (Aberforth may have tought returned Sirius Occlumency - or maybe Dumbledore cannot sense doggy mind like he can that of Harry-under-invisibility-cloak. Then he presents the new DADA teacher on 1st September - as a birthday gift! - - as Albus hadn't been able to find one, AGAIN. Yes, I'd love for that to be Sirius...). 5. I want to see more Luna! And maybe she - or Aberforth - will tell Hermione she reads too much... that she needs to learn to laugh at herself (otherwise she'll never be able to defeat a boggart). 6. Harry as a silent partner of WWW. Silent in that he has no say - partly due to being a minor, but he'll get a part of the profit directly into his account AND has the right to know company business. (Fred&George already DID acknowledge that last part for their financial backer.) I do believe that WWW will be important, it's already been the most helpful in school... and as I think Hermione needs to learn to laugh at herself, the best way to do that is for her to get a summer-job as test subject... and Ron could do with that lesson as well. (And Ron at least will want that money.) Finwitch From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue May 24 12:33:52 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:33:52 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: <001401c5601a$83bdd700$6b58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129389 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > > I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. This > discussion seems to assume that teaching is Snape's job. I disagree. It's the job he gets paid for. From what we've seen, he's miserable at it. If he doesn't do it properly he's betraying Dumbledore, his students, their parents, and the wizarding world as a whole. And sowing the seeds of his failure at one of the most important jobs he'll ever be given, to boot. > ...but if Dumbledore ran a coffee shop, Snape would have > spent the last 14 years making latte. And being nasty to the >customers... Agreed, he'd probably be a failure at any job that required any sort of mature attitude. > The fact remains, that in OoP Dumbledore asked the two > of them, Snape and Harry, to interact in a different way--not > Hogwarts teacher/student, but fellow fighters against Voldemort. In > fact, the Hogwarts relationship was used to hide the true purpose. > And Snape did what I believe to be his flawed best, even though he > was putting himself at risk--and Harry behaved like a child with no > awareness of the stakes or magnitude. So, after suffering four-and-a-half years of constant abuse, wretched teaching, and grossly unfair treatment at Snape's hands, a 15-year-old fails to completely trust him, and has trouble learning. A competent teacher might take his own failings into account, and find another approach... Oh, wait, he did! He got his feelings hurt, and terminated the lessons entirely, apparently without informing the rest of the Order, leaving his charge in worse condition than he found him. All because he's still angry at a man fourteen years dead. And you complain about the 15-year old's immaturity. Amiable Dorsai From editor at texas.net Tue May 24 12:45:19 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:45:19 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape References: Message-ID: <001501c5605e$71fc9c60$5859aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129390 Amandageist said, re: Snape > > I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. This > > discussion seems to assume that teaching is Snape's job. I disagree. Amiabledorsai: > It's the job he gets paid for. Amandageist now: I have a job I get paid for; I'm an editor. I'm also a mother of three. Which is the most important? I maintain, Snape's primary job is whatever he's doing for the Order--that's what he has been waiting 14 years to do. Amiabledorsai: > From what we've seen, he's miserable > at it. If he doesn't do it properly he's betraying Dumbledore, his > students, their parents, and the wizarding world as a whole. Amandageist: Ah, but I am one who will not concede that he's miserable at it. Because I think what a teacher should do is convey information, and (with the exception of Neville, who has trouble in classes other than Snape's) Snape does that. I don't think it's required for a teacher to be nice. I think it's required for a teacher to pass fundamental information about the subject he/she is teaching, and there is canon to support that Snape is quite effective at that. ~Amanda, off for a latte From feenyjam at msu.edu Tue May 24 13:24:46 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 13:24:46 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ Poll- Ambiguity in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129391 Steve/bboyminn said: > In addition, as far as we know at this point, Harry and Dumbledore are > the only living people who know the Propehcy in it's entirety. There > may be others, but these two we know. However, it seem very reasonable > that at some point in the next book Harry is going to confide in Ron > and Hermione. Further, at some point, I expect Harry and Neville to > have a discussion on the matter. So those are additional character to > whom the Prophecy will be 'ambiguous'. > Greenfirespike says: What do you think Sybill Trelawney's knowledge of the Propehcy is? While I don't think she can recall it or recite it, she did utter it, and perhaps it is locked away somewhere in her mind? I ask this knowing that someone has posted her/his idea that in HBP LV will try to get the entire Propehcy from Sybill. From department.of.mysteries at gmail.com Tue May 24 05:36:12 2005 From: department.of.mysteries at gmail.com (athene42100) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 05:36:12 -0000 Subject: Braaaains! (In the Department of Mysteries) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129392 I just came up with a crazy theory. Wouldn't it be easier for Death Eaters to sneak into St. Mungo's and AK Broderick Bode? ...well, let's assume they have some sort of wards up to detect that kind of thing. Couldn't they have sent someone in Polyjuiced as a Healer or something and poisoned him? Why did he have to be *strangled?* Strangulation causes brain death, which causes, you know, regular-type death. But it's the brain death I'm more interested in here. Remember the big tank of brains in the Department of Mysteries? (I love the Department of Mysteries - it's got so many puns made real: it's the site of the Ministry's Think Tank, and if you're not careful you could go Beyond the Veil or even fall in Love.) Well, they must get the brains from *somewhere.* If something that really thinks doesn't appear to have a brain, it's sort of suspicious - remember Arthur's comment about not trusting things if you don't know where they keep their brains? My theory is this: the Department of Mysteries takes the very best brains fresh from their very best (but dead) researchers, and plops them into the tank to form a sort of collective intelligence/supercomputer thingy. The brains retain at least *some* of what they learned. So casting Imperius on an Unspeakable and then killing them is a dangerous, dangerous thing to do unless you have some way of making their brain completely useless. Enter the Devil's Snare. ~Kaesa, who doesn't think JKR planned that, but thinks it would be neat anyway. From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Tue May 24 14:20:18 2005 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:20:18 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ Poll- Ambiguity in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > JKR seems to apply a straightforward > analysis of the prophesy to the facts ... (i.e., LV marked Harry by trying to kill him, etc.); yet, she > admitted the prophecy remains ambiguous to her fans and to her > characters. Whiz: I'm not sure ambiguous is the word. First of all, the prophesy reads: Prophesy: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him ... " Yet according to the FAQ, when the prophesy was delivered, no had this power at all. FAQ: "In choosing which boy to murder, he was also (without realising it) choosing which boy to anoint as the Chosen One ? to give him tools no other wizard possessed ? the scar and the ability it conferred, a magical window into Voldemort's mind." So, in fact, no one had this power until about two years later when the DL marked Harry. ??? This also apparently answers the question, what is the power to vanquish Vodle? It's the connection in the scar, itself, the Magic Window. Angie: > Her characters, hmmm. The only characters that we know for certain > know about the prophecy are DD and Harry and the prophecy-keeper > (Wonder who that is and why LV didn't go after him?) Whiz: Maybe the prophesy keeper isn't a person. Maybe it's something magical, like the quill at Hogwarts that writes down the names of all the magical children born. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue May 24 14:24:00 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:24:00 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: <001501c5605e$71fc9c60$5859aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Amandageist: > > Ah, but I am one who will not concede that he's miserable at it. > Because I think what a teacher should do is convey information, > and (with the exception of Neville, who has trouble in classes > other than Snape's) Snape does that. I don't think it's required > for a teacher to be nice. I think it's required for a teacher to > pass fundamental information about the subject he/she is teaching, > and there is canon to support that Snape is quite effective at that. If you asked me to clean your best china and I used a sandblaster to scour off all of the food particles, incidentally scrubbing off the pattern, would you consider me a good dishwasher? After all, the china would be clean--cleaner than it's been since it left the kiln. Amiable Dorsai From scolere at gmail.com Tue May 24 14:05:56 2005 From: scolere at gmail.com (Sass) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:05:56 +0100 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129395 Apparently, (according to this story in the Guardian newspaper) an investigation by the Sun [tabloid] newspaper into "odd betting patterns at the market town of Bungay in Suffolk may have unearthed the secret [of who dies in HBP] a month early. And the future, it seems, is not looking bright for Albus Dumbledore." "According to reports in the Sun, the betting website Blue Square, which is running a book on the question of which character will be bumped off, has recently been inundated with punters wishing to place bets on the demise of the Hogwarts headmaster. But eyebrows were only raised when it transpired that most of the bets originated from Bungay - the town which is coincidentally home to the printers, Clays, who produced the previous five books in the Potter series." More at: http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1491128,00.html Sass -- "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca From garybec101 at comcast.net Tue May 24 14:43:11 2005 From: garybec101 at comcast.net (garybec101 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:43:11 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest Message-ID: <052420051443.6246.42933D7F00017744000018662200762302CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129396 Becki takes a stab at it. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I think it will be Dumbledore, but I am not sure if he will snuff it at the end of book six or sometime in book 7, but I think he is dust, one way or another. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? The half-blood prince is Felix (whateverhislastnameis) who is also the lion-looking dude, who is also the new DADA teacher, and descendant of Godric Griffindor. 3. What is Lily's big secret? I am really going all-out here, (I have not seen this theory yet, my apologies if I am repeating it), I think that she is not really a muggle-born, but a half-blood. I believe that her real father was killed before she was born, who was a wizard, the son of Felix, (see #2) Mr. Evens was noble and married Lilly?s Mother while she was pregnant with Lilly. That would explain why Petunia is a muggle, (as long as Lilly is the oldest, which I don?t think we know yet). So that would make Felix Harry?s grandfather, a suitable mentor for when Dumbledore bites the dust. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? See #2 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He and Ginny would make a good match but I can?t help thinking Hermione might figure into the equation somehow. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I always thought it would be Kingsley, but Madame Bones makes more sense. I will take Amelia. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Definitely a pensive, probably Dumbledores. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, to the horror of Snape. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. He will excel in Herbology and develop new herbs that will cure his parents. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Ten, I don?t think he did well in History of Magic or Astronomy. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. We will find out that it was indeed Cassandra Tralawny that was being channeled through Sybil making the prophecies. 2. Percy was playing double agent and all will be forgiven and he will get some sort of big promotion at the MOM. 3. Draco will somehow be an intricate part of Lucius being released from or escape from Azkaban. 4. Ron will have some sort of consequence from the brain tentacles of thought. 5. Neville will redeem himself and prove to be a great wizard. 6. Harry will somehow be able to communicate with Sirius, possibly with a painting hidden away at 12GP, that he will find as he goes searching the attic once he inheirets it. Becki, who is desperatly trying to keep caught up but consistanly finds 1000 emails in her inbox. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Tue May 24 14:48:18 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 14:48:18 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129397 Amandageist opined: > > > > Ah, but I am one who will not concede that he's miserable at it. > > Because I think what a teacher should do is convey information, > > and (with the exception of Neville, who has trouble in classes > > other than Snape's) Snape does that. I don't think it's required > > for a teacher to be nice. I think it's required for a teacher to > > pass fundamental information about the subject he/she is teaching, > > and there is canon to support that Snape is quite effective at that. Amiabledorsai responded: > > If you asked me to clean your best china and I used a sandblaster to > scour off all of the food particles, incidentally scrubbing off the > pattern, would you consider me a good dishwasher? > > After all, the china would be clean--cleaner than it's been since it > left the kiln. Amandageist: I think we may have reached the point where analogies are becoming the focus rather than supporting material, and it's starting to obscure meaning. I'm not sure how you intend me, as a reader, to relate scrubbing dishes to a learning experience. Clearly you have a strong opinion, and both of us can make entertaining analogies to illustrate points, but I ask again: may I have canon points or examples to for the analogies to illustrate? ~Amanda From finwitch at yahoo.com Tue May 24 15:15:28 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:15:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius vs. Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129398 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" > wrote: > > > > > But, from the very beginning, Dumbledore did see Kreacher's betrayal > > as a real possibility: "I warned Sirius WHEN we adopted twelve > > Grimmauld Place as our headquarters that Kreacher must be treated > > with kindness and respect. I ALSO told him that Kreacher could be > > dangerous to us" (Ootp, Am. ed., 832 - emphasis mine). > > > The quote you mentioned is Dumbledore essentially saying "I told you > so" well after the fact, when the one person who could definitely > confirm that statement is dead. Shanoah: > Not that I neccessarily think Dumbledore is a habitual liar. I just > wanted to point out that the case could be argued... Finwitch: It could. What Sirius told them of Kreacher: 'He's been alone too long, taking mad orders from my mother's portrait.' This, I believe, goes along with Dumbledore saying how ignorance and neglect can be *worse* than outright hatred. And this particular ignorance was something Sirius could not help. Couldn't, because he was either in Azkaban or on-the-run for something he did not do. Curious, though, how *Harry* appears to prefer being ignored to outright anger (look at his reaction when Snape gives him silent treatment: Harry considers it a *relief*). I suppose the arguement between Sirius/Dumbledore had to do with loner's madness. Sirius spent 12 years alone with Dementors, and saw several people going insane and killing themselves. The items having to do with Sirius' family are the source of Kreacher's madness - and he's *dwelling* in it. Do you know Sirius wasn't instinctively doing whatever he could to keep himself (and Kreacher) from dwelling in the past and live on? As I see it, Sirius was fighting against insanity, AGAIN, which is why he tried to change the environment etc. He would have been better if Harry had been there, I think. Just for *company*. Kreacher was someone who was actively fighting to KEEP insanity, opposing Sirius in everything... Finwitch From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Tue May 24 14:47:12 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 10:47:12 -0400 Subject: SPOILER? Rumor of who dies in HBP (was: HBP Prediction Contest) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42933E70.7000200@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129399 Sass wrote: > "According to reports in the Sun, the betting website Blue Square, > which is running a book on the question of which character will be > bumped off, has recently been inundated with punters wishing to > place bets on the demise of the Hogwarts headmaster. But eyebrows > were only raised when it transpired that most of the bets originated > from Bungay - the town which is coincidentally home to the printers, > Clays, who produced the previous five books in the Potter series." Whoa... If we off Dumbledore... And McGonagall takes over as Headmistress... And she's ESE... And we don't find that out until sometime in Book 7... Whoa! Michelle, popping up from lurkdom in her astonishment From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue May 24 15:49:24 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:49:24 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > > Amiabledorsai responded: > > > > If you asked me to clean your best china and I used a sandblaster > > to scour off all of the food particles, incidentally scrubbing > > off the pattern, would you consider me a good dishwasher? > > > > After all, the china would be clean--cleaner than it's been > > since it left the kiln. > > Amandageist: > > I think we may have reached the point where analogies are becoming > the focus rather than supporting material, and it's starting to > obscure meaning. I'm not sure how you intend me, as a reader, to > relate scrubbing dishes to a learning experience. > > Clearly you have a strong opinion, and both of us can make > entertaining analogies to illustrate points, but I ask again: may I > have canon points or examples to for the analogies to illustrate? OK, let's get a bit more concrete: Snape's attempt at teaching Harry Occlumency left Harry more open to Voldemort than he was before. Bad teaching. Snape took points from Harry because another student--Neville--made an error in his potion. This in a classroom where talking is not permitted, so Harry could not have helped Neville without breaking the rules in any case. In another incident, he took house points because a student (Hermione) *did* help Neville fix a mistake in a potion. This may teach something, but it certainly isn't Potions. Snape threatened to illegally dose Harry with Veritaserum for no purpose other than to expose schoolboy misdemeanors--providing a poor example of acceptable behavior to a student in his charge. Snape failed to render aid to Hermione when she was accidentally hexed, choosing to insult her appearance rather than send her to the hospital wing. I note that he did send a Pureblood student to see Madam Pomphrey after the same incident, so I suppose a lesson of some sort was taught. Shall I continue? Amiable Dorsai From j.balfour at leedsmet.ac.uk Tue May 24 16:01:33 2005 From: j.balfour at leedsmet.ac.uk (Boolean) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 16:01:33 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: Boolean's (very late!) entry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129401 You're probably all sick of reading these by now but here are my guesses... 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Hagrid. Although I have predicted this for every book so far. Wishful thinking, I guess. Or McGonagall. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Godric Gryffindor. Backstory revealed via the 'old lion' character, who is a descendent. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) That Peter Pettigrew was in love with her and betrayed her and James as an act of revenge because she did not recquite his feelings (she knew about this because he had declared himself to her.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Dumbledore or the 'old lion' character. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No-one. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Lucius Malfoy. I think it's got to be someone who isn't DD-friendly, even if just for the sake of raising the jeopardy on the plot. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve which used to belong to Godric Gryffindor. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He scraped through all of them. Predictions 1. Voldemort learns the whole prophecy and it is a real moment of weakness for him as he realises that he set himself up against the stronger candidate. We learn this through Harry's further study of occlumency. 2. Pettrigrew repays his debt to Harry. 3. We discover what Snape did in order to convince Voldemort that he wasn't a spy. 4. They start having lessons in apparating. Draco is worryingly good at it. 5. Hermione starts having secret lessons with McGonagall to learn how to become an animagus. From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 24 17:31:30 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:31:30 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > > OK, let's get a bit more concrete: Snape's attempt at teaching Harry Occlumency left Harry more open to Voldemort than he was before. Bad teaching. Pippin: This always puzzles me. Harry failed to report to Snape that the dreams were becoming more frequent, lied about it when asked, and reported that he'd been practicing when he hadn't. How was Snape supposed to form an accurate idea of Harry's progress? Amiable Dorsai: > Snape threatened to illegally dose Harry with Veritaserum for no purpose other than to expose schoolboy misdemeanors--providing a poor example of acceptable behavior to a student in his charge. Pippin: Snape warned Harry that veritaserum would be used if he had any further reason to believe that Harry was breaking into his office-- and in fact Dumbledore ordered it used on the person who was found with polyjuice potion in his possession. A fair warning I'd say. Amiable Dorsai: Snape failed to render aid to Hermione when she was accidentally hexed, choosing to insult her appearance rather than send her to the hospital wing. I note that he did send a Pureblood student to see Madam Pomphrey after the same incident, so I suppose a lesson of some sort was taught. Pippin: As you say, your examples don't have much to do with teaching potions. I was going to argue that Snape wasn't hired to teach ethics, but that's wrong. He is in fact the Head of Slytherin, and we all know what their ethical philosophy is. So how is Snape disloyal to Dumbledore, who appointed him to that position? Snape's insult does have the effect of getting Hermione to pull herself together and get to the Hospital wing, and the next time she's in a real fight, she, for the first time in canon, manages to keep her head. "Any means to achieve their ends" --whatever you want to say about Snape's methods, they work. Pippin From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 24 17:56:36 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 17:56:36 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129403 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sass wrote: > Apparently, (according to this story in the Guardian newspaper) an > investigation by the Sun [tabloid] newspaper into "odd betting > patterns at the market town of Bungay in Suffolk may have unearthed > the secret [of who dies in HBP] a month early. And the future, it > seems, is not looking bright for Albus Dumbledore." (Snip)> - the town which is coincidentally home to the printers, Clays, who produced the previous five books in the Potter series." Tonks: Well that is just terrible if they did leak it in any, way, shape or form. But the article also says that the 6th book isn't being published there after the last leak. So we don't know who to believe do we? All I can say it if it is my beloved DD (sigh, weep), then DD is also the Half-Blood prince and the flames on the bookcover are his. He is being reborn or something. Geeesh.. is it July yet? By the time it gets here I won't have the energy left to read it. Tonks_op From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue May 24 18:01:28 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:01:28 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129404 >>Amandageist: >Clearly you have a strong opinion, and both of us can make entertaining analogies to illustrate points, but I ask again: may I have canon points or examples to for the analogies to illustrate?< >>Amiable Dorsai: >OK, let's get a bit more concrete: Snape's attempt at teaching Harry Occlumency left Harry more open to Voldemort than he was before. Bad teaching.< Betsy: If true, not only bad teaching, but an act of betrayal. Do you have canon to prove that specifically Snape's teaching method (rather than say, Harry's curiosity) left Harry more open to the DoM dreams? Harry has his opinions, yes. But is his opinion ever confirmed? >>Amiable Dorsai: >Snape took points from Harry because another student--Neville--made an error in his potion. This in a classroom where talking is not permitted, so Harry could not have helped Neville without breaking the rules in any case.< Betsy: Snape was being hard on Harry here, IMO. But since the students were working in pairs, I find it hard to believe there wasn't a certain amount of quiet murmuring going on. (And the points were taking from Gryffindor - not Harry personally. So it could be argued that the points would have been lost regardless, and Snape just took the opportunity to make another dig at Harry.) >>Amiable Dorsai: >In another incident, he took house points because a student (Hermione) *did* help Neville fix a mistake in a potion. This may teach something, but it certainly isn't Potions.< Betsy: In *this* case, Neville had been assigned to do the potion *on his own*. Hermione, in this case, was cheating. She's lucky she and Neville didn't get expelled. (And as Hermione made sure that Neville didn't actually learn Potions, might it not be argued that Snape hopefully taught them a small amount of ethics?) >>Amiable Dorsai: >Snape threatened to illegally dose Harry with Veritaserum for no purpose other than to expose schoolboy misdemeanors--providing a poor example of acceptable behavior to a student in his charge.< Betsy: I don't have my books, but wasn't this when Snape suspected Harry of stealing (again) from his private Potions stores? (Hardly a "schoolboy misdemeanor".) Plus, I would add that Snape never actually dosed Harry with the Veritaserum, and later he *prevents* Harry from being dosed with Veritaserum. Shouldn't actions speak louder than words? >>Amiable Dorsai: >Snape failed to render aid to Hermione when she was accidentally hexed, choosing to insult her appearance rather than send her to the hospital wing. I note that he did send a Pureblood student to see Madam Pomphrey after the same incident, so I suppose a lesson of some sort was taught.< Betsy: Snape doesn't take points from Hermione for going to the hospital wing (again, actions over words), and he reacts to her injuries exactly the same way he reacted to another Gryffindor hexed by a Slytherin (was it Katie who ended up with an eyebrow forest?). What Snape did was refuse to see an injury and thereby avoid taking points from Slytherin. He *does* manage to anger Ron and Harry enough that they give him an opportunity to take points from Gryffindor (Snape is clever like that). And you'll notice that Pureblood Ron gets disciplined, so I don't think a blood prejuidice is really going to fly. (Does he ever pick on Dean?) >>Amiable Dorsai: >Shall I continue?< Betsy: You can, if you want, but as Amiabledorsai has already pointed out, Snape and his teaching abilities are a controversial subject. (*Snape* is a controversial subject.) I've poured over the books many a time to show why I think he's an excellent teacher. Others have poured over the books to show the reverse. I think the proof is in the pudding (his high pass rate, etc.); others think the proof is in his sometimes cruel wit (Neville's nerves). About all either side has managed to show to the other side is that nothing is really clearcut when it comes to our Professor Snape. (Okay, *I* think it's clearcut, but since folks *still* want to argue... ) Betsy From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 24 18:04:45 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:04:45 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129405 If they are going to study Apparating and you can't Apparate in or out of Hogwarts can they study it there or do they have to go somewhere else? Will they be just Apparating from one side of the room to another? Is there some sort of a shield on Hogwarts that it is just the *into* or *out of* that can't be done? ???? Tonks_op From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue May 24 18:54:10 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 18:54:10 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Pippin: > This always puzzles me. Harry failed to report to Snape that the > dreams were becoming more frequent, lied about it when asked, > and reported that he'd been practicing when he hadn't. How was > Snape supposed to form an accurate idea of Harry's progress? Well, he was personally testing Harry every lesson, some people might have gleaned a clue or two from that... More importantly, Snape spent 4-1/2 years convincing Harry that he was his enemy, going so far as to come up with an excuse for their meetings--"Remedial Potions"--calculated to cause Harry maximum humiliation. If Harry didn't trust him, Snape has only himself to blame. > > Amiable Dorsai: > > > > Snape threatened to illegally dose Harry with Veritaserum for no > purpose other than to expose schoolboy misdemeanors--providing a > poor example of acceptable behavior to a student in his charge. > > Pippin: > Snape warned Harry that veritaserum would be used if he had any > further reason to believe that Harry was breaking into his office-- > and in fact Dumbledore ordered it used on the person who was > found with polyjuice potion in his possession. A fair warning I'd > say. Let's see, on the one hand we have a student who may have indulged in petty pilfering, on the other we have a man who has committed multiple kidnaps, jailbreak, attempted murder, accessory to attempted murder, actual murder, torture, impersonation, unlawful imprisonment, conspiracy to return a murderous psychopath back to his body, and, oh yes, petty pilfering. Yeah, I'd say the two cases were comparable. Sure they are. So we add to the list of Snape's flaws: a total lack of any sense of proportion. > Amiable Dorsai: > Snape failed to render aid to Hermione when she was accidentally > hexed, choosing to insult her appearance rather than send her to the > hospital wing. I note that he did send a Pureblood student to see > Madam Pomphrey after the same incident, so I suppose a lesson of > some sort was taught. > Pippin: > As you say, your examples don't have much to do > with teaching potions. The examples were chosen to show that Snape causes collateral damage, regardless of his claimed (by Amandageist, I don't believe it) effectiveness as a teacher. > Snape's insult does have the effect of getting Hermione to pull > herself together and get to the Hospital wing, and the next time > she's in a real fight, she, for the first time in canon, manages to > keep her head. "Any means to achieve their ends" --whatever > you want to say about Snape's methods, they work. The major effect of Snape's insult was to change the issue from dueling and using magic in the halls to Harry's and Ron's protests of Snape's behavior, enabling him to punish Harry and Ron while allowing the instigator--Draco--to go without sanction. See my first point about why Snape may have failed to get Harry's trust during his Occlumency lessons. Amiable Dorsai From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 24 19:19:39 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:19:39 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129407 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: If Harry didn't trust him, Snape has only himself to blame. Pippin: Harry knew that Snape had to maintain appearances and he knew that Dumbledore trusted Snape. Who was being disloyal to Dumbledore? Pippin From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue May 24 19:40:07 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:40:07 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129408 This is the last reply I'll make today, I have to get some actual work done at some point. :-) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>Amiable Dorsai: > >OK, let's get a bit more concrete: Snape's attempt at teaching > Harry Occlumency left Harry more open to Voldemort than he was > before. Bad teaching.< > > Betsy: > If true, not only bad teaching, but an act of betrayal. Do you have > canon to prove that specifically Snape's teaching method (rather > than say, Harry's curiosity) left Harry more open to the DoM > dreams? Harry has his opinions, yes. But is his opinion ever > confirmed? Well, I don't know who would be a better authority than the person it was actually happening to. And it is an established fact that Snape terminated the lessons. > >>Amiable Dorsai: > >Snape took points from Harry because another st udent--Neville--made > an error in his potion. This in a classroom where talking is not > permitted, so Harry could not have helped Neville without breaking > the rules in any case.< > > Betsy: > Snape was being hard on Harry here, IMO. But since the students > were working in pairs, I find it hard to believe there wasn't a > certain amount of quiet murmuring going on. Harry was not Neville's lab partner. He had no business (or so, I'm sure, Snape would have claimed, had Harry actually helped him) paying attention to Neville's cauldron. (And the points were > taking from Gryffindor - not Harry personally. So it could be > argued that the points would have been lost regardless, and Snape > just took the opportunity to make another dig at Harry.) Pulling another shovelful out of his own grave. This is your idea of good teaching? This is precisely the sort of behavior, carried on incessantly for 4-1/2 years, that made it impossible for Harry to trust Snape. > >>Amiable Dorsai: > >In another incident, he took house points because a student > (Hermione) *did* help Neville fix a mistake in a potion. This may > teach something, but it certainly isn't Potions.< > > Betsy: > In *this* case, Neville had been assigned to do the potion *on his > own*. Hermione, in this case, was cheating. She's lucky she and > Neville didn't get expelled. (And as Hermione made sure that > Neville didn't actually learn Potions, might it not be argued that > Snape hopefully taught them a small amount of ethics?) No difference between the two cases--Neville was no more told to do it "on his own" in this instance than in the other, nor, if we are to engage in the sort of logic chopping you claim Snape is playing at, did he tell Hermione not to help him--"I don't remember asking you to show off, Miss Granger,"-- was all he said. Hermione didn't show off; she helped Neville quietly and without drawing attention to herself. > > >>Amiable Dorsai: > >Snape threatened to illegally dose Harry with Veritaserum for no > purpose other than to expose schoolboy misdemeanors--providing a > poor example of acceptable behavior to a student in his charge.< > > Betsy: > I don't have my books, but wasn't this when Snape suspected Harry of > stealing (again) from his private Potions stores? (Hardly > a "schoolboy misdemeanor".) Plus, I would add that Snape never > actually dosed Harry with the Veritaserum, and later he *prevents* > Harry from being dosed with Veritaserum. Shouldn't actions speak > louder than words? Yep. In this case his action was implying to a student in his charge that it was OK to break the law for trivial purposes. > >>Amiable Dorsai: > >Snape failed to render aid to Hermione when she was accidentally > hexed, choosing to insult her appearance rather than send her to the > hospital wing. I note that he did send a Pureblood student to see > Madam Pomphrey after the same incident, so I suppose a lesson of > some sort was taught.< > > Betsy: > Snape doesn't take points from Hermione for going to the hospital > wing (again, actions over words), and he reacts to her injuries > exactly the same way he reacted to another Gryffindor hexed by a > Slytherin (was it Katie who ended up with an eyebrow forest?). What > Snape did was refuse to see an injury and thereby avoid taking > points from Slytherin. He *does* manage to anger Ron and Harry > enough that they give him an opportunity to take points from > Gryffindor (Snape is clever like that). Clever indeed. He could have handed out punishment for the original offense--using magic in the hallways--but that would have required him to punish Draco as well. > And you'll notice that > Pureblood Ron gets disciplined, so I don't think a blood prejuidice > is really going to fly. (Does he ever pick on Dean?) Dunno about Dean, but Ron is a blood traitor from a family of blood traitors. The man who once called Lily Evans a "mudblood" might find that an interesting distinction. Amiable Dorsai From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue May 24 19:41:02 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:41:02 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129409 Amiable Dorsai: > Well, he was personally testing Harry every lesson, some people might > have gleaned a clue or two from that... Gerry: Actually he did, he commented on his lack of progress and he even correctly guessed the reason for this: that Harry wanted the dreams to continue. (p.521 OoP Bloomsbury hardcover edition). Later on, we see Harry lying about his practicing. p. 562: 'So', 'he said. Have you been practicing?' 'Yes,' Harry lied, looking carefully at one of the legs at Snape's desk. 'Well, we'll soon find out, won't we?' said Snape smoothly. 'Wand out Potter.' Ofcourse then they are interrupted by Draco and what follows is the pensieve scene and the end of the lesson. > Amiable Dorsai: > More importantly, Snape spent 4-1/2 years convincing Harry that he was > his enemy, going so far as to come up with an excuse for their > meetings--"Remedial Potions"--calculated to cause Harry maximum > humiliation. Gerry: Well, what else would the head of Slytherin house have to do with Harry that his own head of house could not provide? Amiable Dorsai: > Let's see, on the one hand we have a student who may have indulged in > petty pilfering, on the other we have a man who has committed multiple > kidnaps, jailbreak, attempted murder, accessory to attempted murder, > actual murder, torture, impersonation, unlawful imprisonment, > conspiracy to return a murderous psychopath back to his body, and, oh > yes, petty pilfering. Yeah, I'd say the two cases were comparable. Gerry: Eh, what has Barty Crouch got to do with this? By the way, he was a very good teacher... Too bad he does not have a soul any more, or else DD could ask him to come back. Also, I have not had a reaction on my post where I asked what lack of teaching talent has to do with betrayal. I would very much like to see arguments for this. Especially because the teaching talent Snape does have (keeping a class silent, making sure they actually learn) he uses. Gerry From steve51445 at adelphia.net Tue May 24 19:43:11 2005 From: steve51445 at adelphia.net (Steve Wilbur) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 15:43:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429383CF.2080700@adelphia.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129410 Tonks wrote: >If they are going to study Apparating and you can't Apparate in or out >of Hogwarts can they study it there or do they have to go somewhere >else? Will they be just Apparating from one side of the room to >another? Is there some sort of a shield on Hogwarts that it is just the >*into* or *out of* that can't be done? ???? > >Tonks_op > > > > Steve here-- That's what I think too. #12 GP must have the same type of shield on it. Even after the order members know about it, they still arrive via the front door. F&G however apparate into H&R's room on several occasions. Often enough, in fact, so that Harry is not bothered by it anymore.That would be good as it would prove to Hermione that you shouldn't believe everything you read in a book. Of course,if you can't apparate at Hogwarts at all, there might just be another special room that the trio hasn't gone into yet. A room like the RoR, which has it's own properties allowing apparition in that room. Or like someone else said, maybe they just go on trips just outside the gates and have lessons there. Cheers, Steve From feenyjam at msu.edu Tue May 24 19:43:39 2005 From: feenyjam at msu.edu (greenfirespike) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:43:39 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129411 Tonks_op said: > If they are going to study Apparating and you can't Apparate in or out of Hogwarts can they study it there or do they have to go somewhere else? Will they be just Apparating from one side of the room to another? Is there some sort of a shield on Hogwarts that it is just the *into* or *out of* that can't be done? ???? > Greenfirespike says: I think you have to teach Apparating outside. If it is simply that you can't apparate *into* or *out of* then why don't Fred and George apparate everywhere they can in Hogwarts as they did in Grimmauld Place. And after F&G get to Hogwarts, we don't hear a word about the two of them apparating, not even in the common room. Plus, we have several examples of classes being taught primarily outside. There is Care of Magical Creatures, divination, and at least the first flying lesson. Greenfirespike From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 24 19:08:04 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:08:04 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > If they are going to study Apparating and you can't Apparate in or > out of Hogwarts can they study it there or do they have to go > somewhere else? Will they be just Apparating from one side of the > room to another? Is there some sort of a shield on Hogwarts that it > is just the *into* or *out of* that can't be done? ???? > > Tonks_op bboyminn: Well, the answer to your first point is relatively easy. You can't apparate AT Hogwarts, that much as been established repeatedly in the books; Hermione usually reminds us constantly. But it seems reasonable that you can Apparate NEAR Hogwarts. As I have said several times, all you would have to do is step outside the front gate and you should be able to Apparate. So, Apparation lessons on the grounds outside the gate in the somewhat substantial area between the gates and the train station. If not that then certainly, they could just go into Hogsmead. It seems reasonable, although not specifically stated, that people can apparate in and out of the village. To the last point, it has repeatedly been said that you can't Apparate into or out-of Hogwarts, but does that mean you can't Apparate within the boundaries of Hogwarts; in other words, Apparate from room to room, or floor to floor? Is the shield that protects Hogarts a shell/barrier that can't be crossed, or is it more like a solid sphere that blocks all Apparation within it's boundaries? I assume that was the point you were trying to make. I would think that if you could Apparate within the boudaries, we would have seen someone do it. Dumbledore would have Apparated down to Crouch Sr's location at the edge of the woods, Hagrid would have Apparated to the same location when Dumbledore called rather than running. The same is true of Karkaroff, when he heard Viktor was hurt, certainly if he could have, he would have Apparated. Again, there are many instances in all the books, where someone 'came running' when Apparation would have been more practical. So, while I can't say for certainty, other than Dobbie, I think the indications are sufficient to conclude, or at least speculate, that no Apparation by a wizard can occur within Hogwart's boundaries. One could speculate that there is a single room that has been excluded at least from the Apparation within the boundaries, and that room is used for Apparation lessons, but I personally think it would be much easier and safer to simply step outside the gates. I find the whole subject of Magical Transportation very fastinating. One of my greatest curiousities lies with the specific limits to the various forms. We know, or at least can reasonably conclude that it is possible to Portkey from the Black Forest to somewhere in Scotland to get to the Quidditch World Cup, that's roughly 800 miles. But is that the limit, or is 1,000 miles possible, or +3,000 to the USA, or approx 10,000 to Australia. What about Floo, what are it's limitation? Can it cross large bodies of water? Can you Floo to Ireland or France? Can it cross the ocean? What about the Knight Bus, it can't stop underwater, but can it travel across/over water? The Knight Bus seems to make great hops; it jumps from one road to another, from one part of the country to another, so could it jump the roughly 30 miles that separates Ireland from Scotland, or the roughly 30 miles that separates France from England? I would speculate that it could. But certainly it has some limitations; I'd like to know exactly what they are. While we are at it, how fast could the fastest broom fly; 200mph, 250mph, 300... 400... 1,000mph? Enquiring minds want to know. When you Apparate is there a sense of time, space, and movement; or is it just 'poof' and you are there. Note that both Portkey and Floo travel do both have a sense of time, space, and movement. Is it logical to conclude that Apparation is the same? These forms of magical transportation can't be based on an enchantments of infinite magical power. JKR herself said she worked very hard to decide what the limits are on magic. So, I conclude each of these various forms of magical tranportation does indeed have well defined limits. I just wish I knew what they were. Really... enquiring minds want to know. Steve/bboyminn From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue May 24 19:01:42 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:01:42 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > If they are going to study Apparating and you can't Apparate in or > out of Hogwarts can they study it there or do they have to go > somewhere else? Will they be just Apparating from one side of the > room to another? Is there some sort of a shield on Hogwarts that it > is just the *into* or *out of* that can't be done? ???? Chys: I think they can study it, as in studying from books, within the building/on the grounds, and then practice in Hogsmeade or elsewhere. I think if it's apparating at all, then it's not allowed or the teachers wouldn't have been travelling through the school on foot in important situations where they needed to be there immediately, and did they ever use the Floo network to get from room to room? Chys From flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net Tue May 24 19:04:43 2005 From: flowerchild4 at sbcglobal.net (Christine Whittaker) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 12:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP prediction contest: Boolean's (very late!) entry In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050524190443.96429.qmail@web80105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129414 Boolean wrote: > You're probably all sick of reading these by now but here are my > guesses... I, for one, love reading everyone's predictions. They are interesting and thought provoking. While I hope my predictions are the correct ones, :-) I still find reading others fascinating. >>snip<< >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? >Lucius Malfoy. I think it's got to be someone who isn't DD->friendly, even if just for the sake of raising the jeopardy on the > plot. I don't see how this one can come about. The WW I'm sure knows, or soon will, who the DEs were that got caught and sent to Azkaban. I seriously doubt that they would allow a known and practicing DE as MoM. >Predictions >>snip<< > 4. They start having lessons in apparating. Draco is worryingly > good at it. I could see this happening. Just what our favorite trio doesn't need. A jr. DE who can attack and flee! > 5. Hermione starts having secret lessons with McGonagall to learn > how to become an animagus. I would love to see this. Hermione's patronus is an otter, and we know from JKR that the patronus and animagus are the same. Cute! Chris From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Tue May 24 19:52:22 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:52:22 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129415 OK, I lied. One more reply, then the computer is turned off for the day. ;-) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" > wrote: > > If Harry didn't trust him, Snape has only himself to blame. > > Pippin: > Harry knew that Snape had to maintain appearances > and he knew that Dumbledore trusted Snape. > > Who was being disloyal to Dumbledore? At this point, Dumbledore has been dead wrong about three teachers. These misjudgements have very nearly cost Harry his life on several occasions. Not to mention getting him cut, kidnapped, Crucioed, and nearly Obliviated. I doubt that even Dumbledore would think that Harry was being disloyal if he thinks for himself on this issue. Amiable Dorsai From jellocat at comcast.net Tue May 24 19:54:10 2005 From: jellocat at comcast.net (jellocat at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 19:54:10 +0000 Subject: HBP predictions Message-ID: <052420051954.14689.42938661000F3CDF0000396122069997359B0E0C0104040A06@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129416 Forgive me, I'm a newbie, but I wanted to try my hand at this: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Papa Weasley, unfortunately. I think it was foreshadowed in the last book. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Someone we haven't met yet, in form or otherwise. I have a feeling, it will be someone from the past, an historical wizard figure? 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Hmm... she can see the future but never told anyone. Hence, she saw her death and James' and knew to protect Harry at the appropriate time. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The lion dude JKR described. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Someone we haven't met yet... a new girl... 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Percy! LOL! 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A very special and old pensieve DD has been protecting, but there must be some danger with it as Harry has his wand out on the book cover... perhaps it is the pensieve of the hbp? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course... 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? To be around Harry, probably 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? At least 8... History of Magic and Divination are definitely not his strong subjects! Other predictions: 1) Harry will fall for a muggle girl... 2) Someone at Hogwarts is not what they seem at all and it will be quite a shock to we the readers, as much as to Harry... 3) Harry leaves the Dursleys early for the Weasleys to celebrate his 16th birthday! 4) Neville will actually be the one that "kills" Voldemort and we'll discover that it was also him, all along - that both boys are the answer to the prophecy, that was slated to destroy V. Harry, however, was powerful enough to thwart the enemy away long enough to give Neville time to develop his powers. Either that, or it will happen by accident. 5) Ron and Hermione will finally kiss... but maybe not until book 7 and it won't mean they'll be involved. 6) We'll learn more about the personal lives of the professors and discover that Snape really doesn't have any redeeming qualities. Jellocat ^^ From tonisan9 at hotmail.com Tue May 24 20:44:37 2005 From: tonisan9 at hotmail.com (tonihollifield) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:44:37 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129417 > Chys asked: "...and did they ever use the Floo network to get from room to room? > Toni, out of lurkdom, answers: I don't have my books with me, but I believe in POA, Snape uses the fire in his office to contact Lupin (I assume in his own office) regarding the "dark magic" contained in the Marauder's Map, and Lupin uses the fire to enter Snape's office. Toni, back into lurkdom, but happy to actually know the answer to something for once! From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue May 24 21:05:56 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:05:56 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129418 > So, while I can't say for certainty, other than Dobbie, I think the > indications are sufficient to conclude, or at least speculate, that no > Apparation by a wizard can occur within Hogwart's boundaries. One > could speculate that there is a single room that has been excluded at > least from the Apparation within the boundaries, and that room is used > for Apparation lessons, but I personally think it would be much easier > and safer to simply step outside the gates. I think one room where apparating is possible makes the whole apparating barriere redundant. Because almost every child in the ww has gone to Hogwarts, every child that stayed beyond its OWLs will know about that room. So an enemy only has to aparate into the room, open the door and.... I also think no apparating is a way to keep track of the students. Imagine a nightly stroll or more with your lover, you're both seventeen, have your licence, apparate out of the dorm, have a bit of fun in London and be back on time for breakfast with no one the wiser. Hm, teachers won't like that I think. Gerry From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue May 24 20:42:03 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:42:03 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129419 bboyminn: > These forms of magical transportation can't be based on an > enchantments of infinite magical power. JKR herself said she worked > very hard to decide what the limits are on magic. So, I conclude each > of these various forms of magical tranportation does indeed have well > defined limits. I just wish I knew what they were. Chys: Didn't Fred... or was that George? Say that apparating in the dark was hard because he couldn't see where he was landing and so he landed on someone (was it Ron?) at Grimmauld place? I don't have the book with me to know for certain. Made me think that they can kind of see as they move. Chys From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue May 24 22:27:04 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:27:04 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sass wrote: > > Apparently, (according to this story in the Guardian newspaper) an > > investigation by the Sun [tabloid] newspaper into "odd betting > > patterns at the market town of Bungay in Suffolk may have unearthed > > the secret [of who dies in HBP] a month early. And the future, it > > seems, is not looking bright for Albus Dumbledore." > (Snip)> - the town which is coincidentally home to the printers, > Clays, who produced the previous five books in the Potter series." > > > Tonks: > Well that is just terrible if they did leak it in any, way, shape or > form. But the article also says that the 6th book isn't being > published there after the last leak. So we don't know who to believe > do we? > > All I can say it if it is my beloved DD (sigh, weep), then DD is > also the Half-Blood prince and the flames on the bookcover are his. > He is being reborn or something. Geeesh.. is it July yet? By the > time it gets here I won't have the energy left to read it. > > Tonks_op Well, Tonks, speaking as one whose had a lot of experience with trying to keep things under wraps, I'd say leaks are more the rule than the exception. For instance, I read about Sirius' death on the net before the release of OOTP -- it was placed there by somebody whose next-door-neighbor worked at the print shop handling one of the print runs. Having said that, I will give this piece of comfort -- most leaks are worthless. They are put out by people who have bad information, or who have an ax to grind, or who just find it amusing to watch the results. I can think of two types of people right off the bat who would be inclined to put out a false leak. One would be somebody who knows that the person to die ISN'T Dumbledore. I find it suspicious that this whole thing is a story about betting patterns. Suppose somebody at the printers found out who dies and wants to make a bundle by betting on it? What better way than to put out a false rumor confirming a popular theory? People rush to bet on Dumbledore, thus increasing the odds on your own bet and maximizing the profit. The other would be the book's publicists. Publicists will do anything to get the book in the news -- that's their job after all. Putting out false rumors is a time honored technique for generating publicity -- even if publicists will only admit that off the record and after half a bottle of Jack Daniels. I think the fact that the leak so perfectly confirms people's expectations (take a scan over the HBP contest answers) makes it look rather suspicious. Then again, Dumbledore is the obvious candidate for very good reason. And we know this particular firm has had leaks before. (Although it isn't clear to what extent they are involved in printing HBP. The article says the printing is said to be taking place in Germany, but it doesn't say if the same firm is handling the job). All of which is to say don't break down in tears yet. But it might be a good idea to accustom ourselves to the idea of a Wizarding World and a Hogwart's without Albus Dumbledore. Lupinlore From houseofbohacek at earthlink.net Tue May 24 22:57:20 2005 From: houseofbohacek at earthlink.net (klyanthea) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:57:20 -0000 Subject: (Filk) Beware Walden McNair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129421 I know, long time no hear. Beware Walden McNair A filk by Gail Bohacek to the tune of Here, There and Everywhere by the Beatles Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle12.html Harry: He doesn't need a knife; it is his axe you should fear He stands there so menacingly Taking a life with the stroke of an axe Who can relax under his unwholesome glare? Where creatures do not stand a prayer At the department that regulates beasts They become deceased `cause he doesn't really care His name's Walden McNair, and when he's around then you can't help but to despair Because to beasts Walden is their worst nightmare I know that it isn't fair That a Hippogriff like Buckbeak should die Hear Hagrid cry, as he falls into despair This man Walden McNair, there is something about him you that should be aware I found out he's a Death Eater, this I swear In the graveyard, he was there That evening when I saw Voldemort rise Not a surprise Since his type has got that flair You should beware Walden McNair Beware Walden McNair -Gail B. From torigyrl at aol.com Tue May 24 22:37:24 2005 From: torigyrl at aol.com (torigirl1976) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 22:37:24 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: <052420051443.6246.42933D7F00017744000018662200762302CECFCE0C0A0D979D0E09@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129422 Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? . Arthur Weasley. Moody listed off all of the order members who were killed in the original war. So far Sirius has been the only member to die. Voldemort seems to spread a lot of death and the order has not suffered the same kind of loss so far. Throw in Molly's fears of someone dying, the reaction in Ootp of the Weasley family at his near loss I think Arthur is going to be killed. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Hagrid. If I remember correctly the giants had a chief/monarch system. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She teased Petunia during the holidays in the same way that Harry draws upon Dudley's fear of magic to tease Dudley. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Well, someone incompetent. I think we are in for a Merry Andrew of sorts so I'm going to say Felix Felicitas. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He won't. He's in his own headspace right now. I don't think he can have one really. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Someone like Lucius Malfoy, but not Malfoy. We haven't really been told the amount of non-DE voldemort supporters. The wizarding world could be very much like nazi germany. Those with wizarding prejudices could out number those without. Fudge is a good example of non-DE wizard prejudice. It's very possible that they could appoint a palpatine-like character. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I'm guessing pensieve. Or a really big bowl of magic-o's cereal. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, Snape is a bread and butter character. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. He's probably looking forward to that. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? He got Dada, potions, transfiguration, charms and care of magical creatures and divination(because he is a favorite target of Trelawney's). He didn't get astronomy or history of magic. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. I think that Lucius Malfoy will be mentally destroyed in Azkaban. I think that a fate of a physically, emotionally and mentally ruined father will have an impact on pushing Draco to the DE. 2. Harry will confont snape, in his anger over Sirius's death, will confront Snape about being Lucius's little lap dog. I don't think he will get any real info but will start calling Snape out on his involvement with the DE. Harry does not trust Snape the way that Dumbledore does. 3. Draco and his gang will join the DE, will be sent to kill either muggles or a wizard family and will chicken out. They will try lying to Voldemort and be punished. 4. Fred and George's Weazley Wizarding Wheezes will go to far and make Voldemort and DE parody items and they will see a backlash. Example: their shop will be bombed/attacked. 5. The centaurs will now be openly hostile to the Hogwarts Staff and students and will try to attack the castle to get at Firenze. Tori From kgpopp at yahoo.com Tue May 24 23:54:47 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:54:47 -0000 Subject: Dark Marks and Veritaserum and so on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129423 zelvusenka1 wrote: > 1. I wonder how wizard?s justice works. Why they just don?t use > veritaserum and ask? They wouldn?t have to organize any hearings. > Plus it would be much easier to identify Voldemort?s supporters. > - or maybe veritaserum belongs to DA as well as imperio, cause it > attacks somebody?s free will. (?) Or it?s a question, how > veritaserum exactly works and what is The Truth :-) Kristen: At long last JK has provided some details on veritaserum on her website. Under the FAQ Books. Cannot copy it but short version is that just like lie detectors it can be fooled or blocked if you are a powerful wizard or witch. (Seal the throat, transform the potion before you drink it, fake a speach ect ect). So since some wizards are powerful or smart enough to fake it and some are not it is not used becuase it wouldn't fair and it would be hard to determine who gave a real response. As for Moody she said while he is powerful he was weakend from the stunning spells. While the other questions were interesting I didn't have answers so I snipped them. From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 00:19:06 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:19:06 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ Poll- Ambiguity in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129424 --- > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > > > > ... JKR ... admitted the prophecy remains ambiguous to her fans and > > to her characters. > > > > Her characters, hmmm. ...edited... > > > > But what about DD? Is the prophesy still ambiguous to him, or does > > he think he has it all figured out? Could this be Jo's way of > > hinting that DD may be wrong in his interpretation, still yet? > > > > Angie > > > Steve replied : > > I think a lot of people know ABOUT the Prophecy. A few others know the > Prophecy itself, but only in summary form. A very very few others > including Dumbledore, of course, know the Prophecy in detail. > > For example, I think members of the Order and assorted relevant > members of the government know ABOUT the Prophecy and some of them, to > varying degrees, know what the Prophecy says. I think there is > probably a small group of peope who have had the Prophecy fully > explained to them, and I think an even smaller number who know it in > it's entirety. > Angie again: I'm sure there must be others, as you say, who know about the prophecy. But did JKR mean that the prophecy is ambiguous to anyone who is not aware of it in its entirety? To the contrary, I think you can fully appreciate the ambiguity only if you read it/hear it in its entirety. I I accidentally snipped the part where you suggest that Harry will share the prophesy with Hermione and Ron, but that was interesting. Does Harry have the prophecy completely memorized so that he can share it in its entirety? He only heard it once, didn't he? Will he only be able to share the gist of it with them? It will be very interesting to see what Hermione thinks the prophesy means if Harry chooses to tell her. That boy has got to stop worrying about what people will think of him and open up -- or he'll explode! > From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 00:24:20 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:24:20 -0000 Subject: JKR's FAQ Poll- Ambiguity in the Prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greenfirespike" wrote: > > > Steve/bboyminn said: > > > In addition, as far as we know at this point, Harry and Dumbledore are > > the only living people who know the Propehcy in it's entirety. There > > may be others, but these two we know. However, it seem very reasonable > > that at some point in the next book Harry is going to confide in Ron > > and Hermione. Further, at some point, I expect Harry and Neville to > > have a discussion on the matter. So those are additional character to > > whom the Prophecy will be 'ambiguous'. > > > > > Greenfirespike says: > > What do you think Sybill Trelawney's knowledge of the Propehcy is? > While I don't think she can recall it or recite it, she did utter it, > and perhaps it is locked away somewhere in her mind? > > I ask this knowing that someone has posted her/his idea that in HBP LV > will try to get the entire Propehcy from Sybill. Angie responds: I would think the memory would have to be locked in her mind, or at least DD thinks so. I believe that's one reason by DD wants to keep her at HW, for her protection, just in case LV does try to get her. Of course, I also think DD believes that Sybill has not finished -- that she still has at least one more good prophesy in her. But what happens if she makes a real prediction when no one is around to hear her? Like the tree that falls over in the forest, does she make no noise? :) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed May 25 00:38:18 2005 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (Ravenclaw Bookworm) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:38:18 -0000 Subject: Snape as Perfectionist (WAS Rampant Ingratitude) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129426 Gerry: [Snape] is not interested in having the little childeren reaching their full potential. Now he does have the talent to keep a class silent and listening. He does have the talent to let them reach high results in their OWLS. Bookworm: Gerry, I think your two comments contradict each other. I think Snape *is* interested in teaching students to appreciate "the subtle science and exact art of potion-making." "I don't expect you will really understand the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses....I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death ? if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach." (PS/SS, Ch 8) How poetic that sounds ? until the dunderhead crack. I think the problem is that Snape is a perfectionist. IME, a perfectionist constantly finds fault with both himself and others. When the students return to classes in OoP, Snape tells them: "I take only the best in my N.E.W.T. Potions class ... ... I advise all of you to concentrate your efforts upon maintaining the high-pass level I have come to expect from my O.W.L. students." (OoP, Ch 12) This sounds to me like he loves the subject, and gets frustrated with the potions-challenged students he has to deal with. I imagine he enjoys teaching the N.E.W.T. Potions class simply because those students want to learn more about potions. (Think of potions as a RW chemistry class that is required ? how many students really put forth their best effort instead of just getting by?) As much as I detest his teaching style (I probably would have been like Neville with Snape as a teacher), Snape is an *effective* teacher. His students do learn the material. Ravenclaw Bookworm From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 00:40:23 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 00:40:23 -0000 Subject: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129427 It seems odd to me that as often as Uncle Vernon gripes about how expensive it is to support Harry, he never complains about the cost of Harry's glasses. Surely, Harry's prescription has needed updating several times, since is he a growing boy. Related to that, and more to the real point of the thread, I wonder when Harry got his glasses and what prompted the initial visit to the opthomalogist. I don't think we've been told exactly what his eye ailment is. Some have suggested that it is related to the scar, since he was struck so close to his eyes. This makes sense, but I wonder if his vision problem is related to the scar, why hasn't all the scar- related connectedness b/w Harry and LV affected his vision? I know I read in some thread that Jo said either Harry's glasses were the key to his vulnerability. And I know she's said it is important that Harry has his mother's eyes and that they are green (which is also the color of the light when the AK curse is peformed). Given all that, I wonder if DD guessed that Harry's vision had been compromised by the failed AK curse and told the Dursleys in the letter he left with Harry that Harry would need glasses. This would at least explain why Vernon never complains - that would border on discussing Harry's "condition" which Vernon can't stand to do. Angie From juli17 at aol.com Wed May 25 01:22:07 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 21:22:07 EDT Subject: Why Snape is at Hogwarts (was Re: Rampant Ingratitude) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129428 Gerry wrote: > Also, I have not had a reaction on my post where I asked what lack of > teaching talent has to do with betrayal. I would very much like to see > arguments for this. Especially because the teaching talent Snape does > have (keeping a class silent, making sure they actually learn) he > uses. > > Gerry > Julie says: I happen to agree with you. Snape is not a nice teacher, he may not even be a *good* teacher in the broadest sense of the word (bringing the best out in his students, including instilling confidence and a love of learning). But he is an effective teacher from all evidence we've seen so far. His students are at an advanced level and generally receive high exam marks. Whether Snape is the best possible Potions teacher Dumbledore could find is probably beside the point. Dumbledore wants Snape there for more than teaching. Snape (along with perhaps McGonagall) is Dumbledore's most certain ally against Voldy, and the one putting his life at greatest risk. And while being at Hogwarts probably protects Snape to a certain extent, I think an even more important reason Dumbledore wants Snape at Hogwarts is so Snape can help protect the children, including (and perhaps now *especially*) Harry. Think about it. Snape has had a hand in keeping Harry alive several times now. He's also protected other children from harm, and not only Slytherins (recall his admonition to Goyle to stop choking Neville, and his intervention in Lockhart's class to contain the snake). He may not do it nicely, he may even go out of his way to appear as grudging as possible, but he does it nonetheless. And he has never physically harmed a child (other than shoving Harry away in anger during the pensieve incident, which didn't really hurt Harry). To put it another way, if I had a child at Hogwarts, all things being equal, I'd probably keep him/her out of Snape's class if I could. His teaching methods leave much to be desired. But if I had a child at Hogwarts during a war with Voldemort, and I had to pick which teacher I'd want my child with in the event of hostilities breaking out at Hogwarts, Snape would come miles (kilometers) before Sprout, Fitwick, Trelwany (give me a break), Hagrid (yep, sorry), and just about every other teacher besides Dumbledore and perhaps McGonagall. Oh, and back to that Rampant Ingratitude thing--no, I don't think Snape shows ingratitude to Dumbledore. Snape's been by DD's side for years and remains there. IMO, he's already paid back some of his debt to DD, and DD has every reason to believe Snape will continue to do so until the war is over or Snape dies trying. DD doesn't expect Snape to grovel or to put on a false act of kindness (eek, how disturbing would that be?) He expects Snape to help defeat Voldemort and protect the next generation of the WW at Hogwarts--including Harry--with his life. As long as Snape does that, it will show gratitude enough for DD. (And for me). IMO, Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sophierom at yahoo.com Wed May 25 01:28:46 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 01:28:46 -0000 Subject: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129429 "gelite67" wrote: > It seems odd to me that as often as Uncle Vernon gripes about how > expensive it is to support Harry, he never complains about the > cost of Harry's glasses. Surely, Harry's prescription has needed > updating several times, since is he a growing boy. > > Related to that, and more to the real point of the thread, I wonder > when Harry got his glasses and what prompted the initial visit to the > opthomalogist. I don't think we've been told exactly what his eye > ailment is. Some have suggested that it is related to the scar, since > he was struck so close to his eyes. This makes sense, but I wonder > if his vision problem is related to the scar, why hasn't all the scar- > related connectedness b/w Harry and LV affected his vision? > > I know I read in some thread that Jo said either Harry's glasses were > the key to his vulnerability. And I know she's said it is important > that Harry has his mother's eyes and that they are green > (which is also the color of the light when the AK curse is > peformed). > > Given all that, I wonder if DD guessed that Harry's vision had been > compromised by the failed AK curse and told the Dursleys in the > letter he left with Harry that Harry would need glasses. This would > at least explain why Vernon never complains - that would border on > discussing Harry's "condition" which Vernon can't stand to do. Sophierom: Fascinating questions. At the beginning of PS, we learn that Harry's glasses are held together with tape, so we can gather from that information that, even if we don't hear Vernon complain about the cost of the glasses, he's not been keen on keeping them well maintained. (Or, I suppose we could also infer that Dudley's been punching on him recently!) As for Harry's vision, didn't James Potter wear glasses? While Rowling has indicated that glasses and eyes are both important to understanding Harry's vulnerabilities and powers, perhaps his bad eyesight is due to genetics? I wonder if Rowling's comment about Harry's glasses being key to his vulnerability refers to the fairly simple fact that, should his glasses be knocked away from him, Harry will be unable to see as well? Sight does seem to be an important theme in the book. There's Trelawney with her occasionally accurate sight (despite her fraudulent ways and big, huge glasses). There's also the basilisk in CoS, whose sight is key to his powers. And I'm sure there are many more references to sight and blindness (and many posts dealing with the subject). Hmm, it will be interesting to find out how Harry's sight plays into this! From torigyrl at aol.com Wed May 25 00:40:02 2005 From: torigyrl at aol.com (torigyrl at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 20:40:02 EDT Subject: Rampant Ingratitude Message-ID: <203.245308a.2fc52362@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129430 > Amandageist: > > Ah, but I am one who will not concede that he's miserable at it. > Because I think what a teacher should do is convey information, > and (with the exception of Neville, who has trouble in classes > other than Snape's) Snape does that. I don't think it's required > for a teacher to be nice. I think it's required for a teacher to > pass fundamental information about the subject he/she is teaching, > and there is canon to support that Snape is quite effective at > that. I agree with you on the fact that being a good *teacher* has nothing to do with whether you are nasty or nice. From my experience as a corporate trainer I've found that it is how you disseminate information. Or as you put it "convey information". I've worked alongside trainers with personalities that would qualify them as "great" (Flitwick, Sprout) and personalities that would qualify them as "bad" (Snape) teachers. The truth is that as far as examination scores or attrition rates (the percentage of students who drop or fail a class) there is very little difference in the outcome. It has been stated that Snape does seem to have a relatively high number of students that do well in potions. Another point that his been brought up on whether he is a good teacher or not is the fact that he does not work to bring out the maximum potential in every student in the class. Neville Longbottom is usually cited. Again, from my experience in education, this kind of expectation upon a teacher is unreasonable and quite frankly utopian. First of all not all students want to learn. Here is a quote I snagged off of the HP Lexicon site "D'you think we've got nothing better to do in Potions than listen to Snape?" --Ron Weasley Both Harry and Ron seem to rush to the door when class is over, put little effort into studying and try to cheat off Hermione. Students like this were the bulk of my 30 student training classes. Trust me when I say that there is very little that you can do to encourage, inspire or persuade these types of students to do better. It is a personal choice on the part of the student. And when you look at Ron and Harry's behavior in their other classes, blaming their poor behavior on Snape just doesn't hold. Secondly not all students are capable of learning. I've had my Neville Longbottoms and unlike Snape I have tried to take these students aside during breaks. No matter how much attention and time I put in to these students I could not get past the "I can't do it" barrier. Sometimes the students own insecurity gets in the way of teaching. Hopefully after the battle at the MOM Neville will have more confidence in himself and be a better student. Do I condone Snape's ridiculing Neville? No, my point is that even if Snape was PerfectTeacher!Snape Neville would still perform the same. Again look at Neville's performance in Transfiguration and his other classes. The only class he excels at is herbology. I think there is a tremendous correlation between the fact that herbology is the subject Neville *really* loves and his performance in this class. It has nothing to do with Prof. Sprout. Also, a word about Hermione. Yes it is nice to have a student who is genuinely interested in learning. However, Hermione Grangers have a tendency to end up disrupting a class more than they contribute to the class. Hermione is after attention more than she is knowledge. She seems to get most of her actual knowledge from the library and not in-class lectures. Tori [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 02:26:55 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 02:26:55 -0000 Subject: Annoyed with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129431 Magda: - He doesn't appreciate his friends enough. - ...it's amazing how clueless he can be about the big picture. - Ron was hurting in GoF, thinking that Harry had cut him out of things; Harry never tried to get past Ron's barriers but instead got behind his own protective shield too Kemper: I think Magda points out Harry's character flaws well. To sum her points: He's generally inconsiderate and self involved. Really, I don't see why Ron hangs around. Bookworm: Of course he is inconsiderate and self-involved. He is a teenager. The same goes for most of Magda's points. (The point about not asking questions has been discussed before. As Magda wrote, it seems to be an (annoying) plot devise.) A social worker I know recently said it the best: a teenager's world stops at the end of his/her nose. Let's see: -Doesn't appreciate friends: Just this week, one of my daughter's friends (aka Mary) told another (aka Jane) that she hated her, and other hurtful comments. The reason? Mary couldn't find her pencil and accused Jane of stealing it. (These girls have been friends for several years.) -Clueless: Is there a parent who doesn't agree? The same kid who can memorize the lyrics to an entire album can't remember what they studied in school earlier in the day, steps over the dirty laundry instead of picking it up and putting it in the basket... -Protective shields: A natural response to hurt. Many adults do it too. It is easier to hide your own feelings than expose them by confronting others. I found this list of traits that, in my experience, pretty accurately describe "normal" teens: EMOTIONAL DEVELOPMENT (of adolescents) www.uwyo.edu/CES/FAMILY/CYFAR/FACT_SHE/Unders~1.htm (University of Wyoming) 1. Move away from parental influence toward greater independence 2. Begin to criticize opinions, suggestions, and actions of adults 3. Frequently fluctuate between emotional peaks of excitement and depths of moodiness 4. Isolation from and lack of involvement in the community leads to feelings of being ignored and not needed 5. Can be very unstable 6. Often make rude comments that can hinder another's self-concept 7. Learn to feel, think, and act according to congruent sex roles 8. Develop further interest in ethics and morality and form own opinions about these issues That's just for 'normal' teens. Harry has the additional stress of being unfairly accused and ostracized during 2 of his 5 years in school, forced to participate in a dangerous competition against older competitors (He may have dreamed of it, but the reality is something else), seeing a school-mate killed, being kidnapped by parents' betrayer then used by his parents' murderer to regain corporeal form, and being ignored by someone he saw as a mentor. All that was before he saw his godfather die and was told he is the Chosen One ? the only one who can save the WW. Not exactly your `normal' experiences. Inconsiderate and self involved? It's a wonder if that is the worst that is said about Harry. Ravenclaw Bookworm From lyraofjordan at yahoo.com Wed May 25 01:45:51 2005 From: lyraofjordan at yahoo.com (lyraofjordan) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 01:45:51 -0000 Subject: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129432 Angie wrote: > It seems odd to me that as often as Uncle Vernon gripes about how > expensive it is to support Harry, he never complains about the > cost of Harry's glasses. Surely, Harry's prescription has needed > updating several times, since is he a growing boy. > > ... I wonder when Harry got his glasses and what prompted the > initial visit to the opthomalogist. {snip} > Given all that, I wonder if DD guessed that Harry's vision had been > compromised by the failed AK curse can't stand to do. Lyra: Given that we know his father also wore glasses, I figure he just has some heriditary condition, probably near-sightedness (same as me and all 3 of my brothers.) As for paying for glasses, I think Brits on the list have assured us they are covered by the National Health Plan, so it doesn't come out of Vernon's pocket. From ginny343 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 02:34:54 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 02:34:54 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Passing through the guarding spells Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129433 I have some questions, but I am quite sure they must have already been discussed. I'm hoping someone can help me with some ideas or links. Okay, in SS/PS when HRH go through the trap door and face all the tests, the only ones that show signs of already being passed are Fluffy (sleeping/harp) and the flying keys (crumpled feathers). I don't see the Devil's Snare being too much of a problem, if you get up right away. But what about the chessboard? Did Quirrel have to play his way across it too? And then did it clean itself up to be ready for HRH? And then how about the potions. The one Harry finally drank from was so small only one person could drink from it. I don't think is looked as if someone else had already taken a drink because then it would have been obvious which one was the right one. So, how was Quirrel able to pass? I think the stone was being hidden from everyone, not just students, so I would assume older wizards wouldn't be able to just walk through some of the tests without having to do them. Sorry if these are very old, boring questions. Linda From jmrazo at hotmail.com Wed May 25 03:03:55 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 03:03:55 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: <001401c5601a$83bdd700$6b58aacf@texas.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" . > > I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here. This discussion seems > to assume that teaching is Snape's job. I disagree. I would agree that this is a fundamental disagreement between us. Snape is a *teacher* first and foremost in my mind (or should be). everything else is secondary. If Dumbledore is willing to put a man in charge of educating minors who is not the absolutely best person he could find for the job, soley because he is a man who might, someday be useful as sleeper agent, then I will think even less of him than I do now. You don't screw around with schooling imo. > > Up until recently, Harry has been in no position to see Snape interacting > with Dumbledore in any capacity that would tell him anything about their > relationship outside the Hogwarts administrative structure. That is not a > good sampling for a sweeping justification of Snape's internal attitude > towards Dumbledore. The fact remains, that in OoP Dumbledore asked the two > of them, Snape and Harry, to interact in a different way--not Hogwarts > teacher/student, but fellow fighters against Voldemort. In fact, the > Hogwarts relationship was used to hide the true purpose. And Snape did what > I believe to be his flawed best, even though he was putting himself at > risk--and Harry behaved like a child with no awareness of the stakes or > magnitude. Harry didn't have any awarness of the magnitude or the stakes. all he had was the word of a man who hadn't looked him in the eyes all year and a person who had been making life hellish for four years. And this lovely person recieved express permision to violate his most private thoughts repeatly under a guise designed to bring Harry as much humiliation as possible (remedial potions). I wouldn't be the most cooperative student in the world either. And regardless of what you think about his potion teaching methods, you can't possibly argue that Snape was doing the absolute best to convey the skill. All of his lessons basically centered around 'clear your thoughts and concentrate' except much more insulting. > It's a fact that, of all the things Snape does or says in all five books > thus far--not *one* can be ascribed with any certainty to a clear motive. > And most can be ascribed, with supporting arguments, to motives that differ > dramatically. So asking for examples is a bit unrealistic, but I ask again: > can you show me *interpretations* of specific actions that would build a > case for ingratitude throughout the sweep of the books? > > ~Amanda I've noticed that further down the list, the discussion has once again come around to Snapes teaching methods (a seperate issue for me), but I think that isn't really what I am talking about. I think that Snape believes he is grateful for his second chance, but that in reality, he lets the man who gave him that second chance down every single time he takes a shot at Harry. Snape lets him down when he picks on Harry on the first day of school, creating an unnecessary emnity between the two of them. Snape lets him down when he takes points away from Harry and his friends for no real reason, contributing to a more hostile environement between students and a teacher they should be able to trust. Snape lets him down when he tries to get Harry expelled *every single year*. Spe lets him down when he doesn't give someone else the second chance he was offered (sirius). Snape lets him down when he lets school boy issues cloud a war that could get people killed. He lets him down when he creates such a hostility between he and Harry that Harry couldn't trust him enough to learn a skill he needed. Snape lets Dumbledore down when he treats a boy that Dumbledore *loves* like crap. That is why I think Snape is an ungrateful git to a man who deserves better from him. phoenixgod2000 From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed May 25 03:09:20 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 03:09:20 -0000 Subject: Did James wear glasses? (Re: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129435 sophierom: > As for Harry's vision, didn't James Potter wear glasses? While > Rowling has indicated that glasses and eyes are both important to > understanding Harry's vulnerabilities and powers, perhaps his bad > eyesight is due to genetics? Jen: It's really not clear in canon if James wears glassses or not. Harry sees him in the Mirror of Erised wearing glasses, but that's also Harry's fantasy of his parents before he sees actual pictures of them. Someone else made the point that Harry might conjure up two people he could immediately identify with in that scene, thus he sees a father with untidy hair and glasses. The reason the Mirror of Erised scene might not be completely accurate is because there's no other canon mention of James wearing glasses, even though we see him again several times. First there's a mention of James in a photgraph with Lily in POA, then we see the smoky image of James during Priori Incantatem, and again in the OOTP Pensieve scene. And even though each scene describes James' physical characteristics, none mention glasses. Weird, huh? Someone please tell me if I'm forgetting a scene, because I find it odd that out of four physical descriptions, only one mentions James wearing glasses and *that* one is conjured by Harry before he sees pictures of his parents at the end of PS/SS. Maybe it's just as oversight by Rowling, but three different times? I do think it's important Harry wears glasses, and really wonder about it if there's no clear genetic reason. On one hand, we know that he has Lily's eyes, yet Lily didn't wear glasses. Lily's eyes were *not* her most vulnerable area apparently, so there's something different about Harry's eyes. It seems that somehow Harry's eyesight was compromised and if it was just from the failed curse, then why hasn't he (and why haven't we) been told? It wouldn't be a big mystery to anyone since the scar is so close to his eyes. There must be some other mystery to the glasses and his eyes. sophierom: > Sight does seem to be an important theme in the book. There's > Trelawney with her occasionally accurate sight (despite her fraudulent > ways and big, huge glasses). There's also the basilisk in CoS, whose > sight is key to his powers. And I'm sure there are many more > references to sight and blindness (and many posts dealing with the > subject). Hmm, it will be interesting to find out how Harry's sight > plays into this! Jen: That's a great observation. There's Moody's eye too, and Rowling makes a point of describing many of the character's eyes including people like Luna and Ollivander, who share protuberant, misty, silvery eyes (I found the connection between those two odd, too). This is one of the great mysteries I can't wait to learn about. It probably won't be until Book 7 though, since Rowling said we would learn significant things about Lily in two parts, first in Book 5 and then in Book 7. Darn it! Jen, always fascinated by the Eyes. From hambtty at triad.rr.com Wed May 25 03:22:31 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 03:22:31 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129436 > At this point, Dumbledore has been dead wrong about three teachers. > > These misjudgements have very nearly cost Harry his life on several > occasions. Not to mention getting him cut, kidnapped, Crucioed, and > nearly Obliviated. > > I doubt that even Dumbledore would think that Harry was being disloyal if he thinks for himself on this issue. > > Amiable Dorsai BG writes: Dead wrong? Maybe, but remember from each DADA professor Harry has learned a valuable lesson that will serve him well: Quirrell - don't judge a person on outside appearance Lockhart - don't let fame go to your head Lupin - what friendship and loyalty really mean Mad-Eye (Crouch, Jr) - be careful who you trust Umbridge - even those in the highest authority can be corupt From elfundeb at gmail.com Wed May 25 03:26:17 2005 From: elfundeb at gmail.com (elfundeb) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:26:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80f25c3a0505242026502454a2@mail.gmail.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129437 Sophierom: > As for Harry's vision, didn't James Potter wear glasses? While > Rowling has indicated that glasses and eyes are both important to > understanding Harry's vulnerabilities and powers, perhaps his bad > eyesight is due to genetics? Yes and yes. > I wonder if Rowling's comment about Harry's glasses being key to his > vulnerability refers to the fairly simple fact that, should his > glasses be knocked away from him, Harry will be unable to see as well? Actually, I think it's the opposite. While Harry's glasses improve his ordinary vision, I think he is vulnerable *because* he wears glasses. I think his eyes harbor a power that Harry will be able to use against Voldemort, but the glasses block that power. (Yeah, so that means that somewhere in the final battle, Harry's glasses will be knocked off, unlocking the means of defeating Voldemort. . . .) > Sight does seem to be an important theme in the book. There's > Trelawney with her occasionally accurate sight (despite her fraudulent > ways and big, huge glasses). There's also the basilisk in CoS, whose > sight is key to his powers. And I'm sure there are many more > references to sight and blindness (and many posts dealing with the > subject). Hmm, it will be interesting to find out how Harry's sight > plays into this! Very good observation. While I'm having trouble coming up with a clever theory as to the nature of the power I think is concealed behind Harry's glasses (it's obviously not something so mundane as Legilimency), logically it would involve inner sight. Too often our ability to truly "see" (i.e., to understand) is obscured by the sights that demand our attention. Taking away Harry's temporal vision (by removing his glasses) might allow his magical vision to take center stage. Debbie From tonks_op at yahoo.com Wed May 25 03:38:14 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 03:38:14 -0000 Subject: Did James wear glasses? (Re: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > > I do think it's important Harry wears glasses, and really wonder > about it if there's no clear genetic reason. On one hand, we know > that he has Lily's eyes, yet Lily didn't wear glasses. Lily's eyes > were *not* her most vulnerable area apparently, so there's something different about Harry's eyes. It seems that somehow Harry's eyesight was compromised and if it was just from the failed curse, then why hasn't he (and why haven't we) been told? It wouldn't be a big mystery to anyone since the scar is so close to his eyes. There must be some other mystery to the glasses and his eyes. Tonks: JKR says that he has his mother's eyes and she also says that his eyes are the most vulnerable thing about him, or something like that. It is possible that she is not talking about the physical here. If he sees the world through the eyes of compassion, through the eyes of love, then he is vulnerable. "We fools who love" as DD says. Harry is vulnerable in a way that we assume that (don't wear your heart on your sleeve) Snape is not. Tonks_op From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed May 25 05:10:07 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 05:10:07 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129439 Over on Sugar Quill there has been a mini-discussion on the following topic: Have any of the adults ever admonished Snape for his attitude toward Harry? What do you all think? My own inclination is to say we just don't know. But there are several possibilities. One possibility is that they (probably Lupin, McGonagall, and I suspect maybe even Dumbledore) have, and found out it does no good whatsoever. Now, some might find the idea of Snape holding out against criticism from Dumbledore, et. al., far fetched. But, Snape has already refused to do his part for the Order once, when he broke off the Occlumency lessons in OOTP. Lupin says he will talk to Snape about it. We don't know that he ever did, but the evidence we have about Lupin would indicate he probably did. And what did Snape do? Did he say "Well, I see it is my duty to go forward with this regardless of my personal feelings?" Excuse me while I guffaw. I am sure he probably responded with "And who are you to tell me how to deal with that arrogant boy, Lupin? I WILL NOT BE TOLD HOW TO CONDUCT LESSONS!" It also seems likely that Dubmledore would have contacted Snape personally, if at all possible. If he didn't that would fly completely in the face of what Dumbledore himself and others say was his attitude in this matter. All evidence points to the idea that Dumbledore would have been extremely upset at this turn of events (and Lupin and Sirius say as much). Yet did Snape continue the lessons? No. Did he say "Of course, headmaster, I realize that I must do what is best for the Order even if I disagree with your policy?" No. Almost certainly he said "I cannot deal with that arrogant brat, Headmaster! I have done what I can and I cannot allow him to continue to disregard my instructions! I am sorry but this is absolutely out of the question!" Now, this line of thought goes, what on earth can Dumbledore do? Technically he could say, "Do it or you're out of the Order!" Oh, great. Now he's pissed off a man with a history of unstable behavior and complete knowledge of the Order's workings, not to mention losing whatever advantage Snape is bringing him. He could say "Do it or you're fired!" And he gets the same result. Why has he not forced Snape to act differently in Potions? Well, those who argue this way would say, just how is he supposed to do that, short of resorting to threats of firing Snape or kicking him out of the Order? Snape knows very well that Dumbledore can't afford to do that for numerous reasons. He could chide Severus, or remonstrate with him. But once again, if Snape keeps saying that Harry is arrogant and deserves to be punished, what can Dumbledore do since Snape knows the Headmaster couldn't afford to carry through with threats even if he made them? And if Snape says "I'm supposed to be trusted by the Slytherins. How can I be NICE to the arrogant brat?" how is Dumbledore supposed to answer? I'm not really a fan of this explanation, but such behavior is perfectly in keeping with Snape's personality, and well within the realm of the believable. It happens all the time in businesses and offices and even the military when a supposed subordinate senses an advantage over a superior. In short, according to this line of thought, Snape has the high cards and is Slytherin enough to know it. Dumbledore can't afford to do more than make disapproving noises, because he can't afford to back up any threats. Another explanation is that the adults around Harry are just idiots. That certainly seems possible. A kinder way of putting it is that Snape, or more specifically the adults puzzling lack of action, is one of those plot devices JKR isn't very good at. They are entertaining and move the plot along but at the expense of consistency and believable characterization. Oh, and I don't think the whole "wizarding world stuck in Victorian attitudes," which is a corollary you sometimes see, is very convincing or believable, either. Another explanation is that the adults believe it is up to Harry to learn to deal with Snape. That is morally reprehensible, if true, in addition to showing them to be idiots. Of course, they may not realize the full extent of Snape's animosity. JKR has said Dumbledore believes dealing with teachers like Snape is a valuable lesson. I could buy that, if the type of behavior Dumbledore is thinking of is what Snape gives to the average Gryffindor (e.g. Seamus or Ron or Dean). With them Snape seems cold and nasty but not particularly vicious. I would even agree that it is probably a valuable lesson for the students to learn how to deal with a cold, nasty, but non-vicious person (particularly since the WW doesn't have universities so Hogwarts students have to learn all their lessons in preparation for real life during the Hogwarts years). The behavior Snape exhibits toward Harry, however, is something very different, and the adults may simply not fully understand that. One could interpret some of Dumbledore's speech in OOTP as showing some tendencies in this direction. He didn't expect Snape to act this way because he didn't fully understand just how vicious Snape's attitude toward Harry was. Myself, I lean toward the "adults are idiots but morally OK" explanation. It fits with the kind of inconsistency you sometimes find in JKR's writing as well as the general message she seems to want to project. Lupinlore From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed May 25 05:44:42 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 05:44:42 -0000 Subject: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > It seems odd to me that as often as Uncle Vernon gripes about how > expensive it is to support Harry, he never complains about the > cost of Harry's glasses. ... > > Related to that, and more to the real point of the thread, I wonder > when Harry got his glasses and what prompted the initial visit to > the opthomalogist. I don't think we've been told exactly what his > eye ailment is. > bboyminn: I'm surprised the no one has jumped in and pointed out the obvious; England has Universal Health Care or Socialized Medicine as do many other European countries. So, Vernon could get eye glasses for free for Harry. Of course, the selection of frames is limited, and I'm sure the many advanced options aren't available, but for the most part; free glasses. I suspect the free glasses had never been properly replaced or repaired because Vernon couldn't be bother with taking the time off to run Harry back to the eye doctor. Whatever Harry had, broken or not, was good enough. Of course, if it had been Dudley, you can be sure they would have gone to the best private pay-for-service eye care doctor. And for the record, it seems that Harry is Nearsighted. In the many instances when his glasses are off or have been removed, his vision is burry. That implies nearsightedness. > Angie continues: > > Given all that, I wonder if DD guessed that Harry's vision had been > compromised by the failed AK curse and told the Dursleys in the > letter he left with Harry that Harry would need glasses. This would > at least explain why Vernon never complains - that would border on > discussing Harry's "condition" which Vernon can't stand to do. > > Angie bboyminn: Very difficult to determine eye problems in a very small child. Harry was only 15 months old, and he probably wasn't having reading problems or trouble seeing the blackboard at that age. So, while Dumbledore may have suspected some physical problems because of the scar, it would have been very difficult to identify them or even harder to predict them. At least, that's how I see it. Steve/bboyminn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed May 25 06:35:56 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 06:35:56 -0000 Subject: Annoyed with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rbookworm46" wrote: > Magda: > - He doesn't appreciate his friends enough. > - ...it's amazing how clueless he can be about the big picture. > Kemper: > I think Magda points out Harry's character flaws well. To sum her > points: He's generally inconsiderate and self involved. > Bookworm: > Of course he is inconsiderate and self-involved. He is a teenager. > > The same goes for most of Magda's points. ... Let's see: > > -Doesn't appreciate friends: Just this week, one of my > daughter's friends told another that she hated her, ... The reason? > Mary couldn't find her pencil and accused Jane of stealing it. > > -Clueless: Is there a parent who doesn't agree? The same kid who > can memorize the lyrics to an entire album can't remember what > they studied in school earlier in the day,...... > > -Protective shields: A natural response to hurt. > > ...edited... > > Inconsiderate and self involved? It's a wonder if that is the worst > that is said about Harry. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm bboyminn: I think Ravenclaw Bookworm is right on in her statements and examples of the motivation behind Harry's behavior, but I think it goes much deeper than that. I think Harry's personality and his action are very much explainable and justifiable given his upbringing. Harry grew up in an abusive household. Please, let's not go into another discussion of whether or not Harry was 'abused'. Regardless of the exact definition of what happened to him, it was a very oppressive, sometimes dangerous, and generally anti-Harry household. -Harry doesn't talk to, ask questions of, or confide in anyone. Naturely, he doesn't, his earlier life has taught him that adults are irrational, unreasonable, meanspirited, and dangerous people. More importantly, this early experience is ingrained into his subconscious, and the subconscious knowledge far outweighs the intellectual knowledge he has gained since leaving the Dursley. There is a reason they call these earlier years the 'formative' years. -Harry has a very small circle of friends and an equally small circle or people he trusts. Sure Harry generally and superficially trust Dean and Seamus, but they are not people he trust on a deeply personal level. Even with Ron and Hermione, the people he trust most in the world, he still holds back. Why? Because his formative years have taught him that people are dangerous, irrational, and can't be trusted. Kids at school shunned him, and stood by and laugh while Dudley and his gang abused him. Again, these are deeply ingrained attitudes that aren't easily overridden by intellect. If they were, a lot of psychiatrists would be out of business. -Harry is independant. If something needs to be done, he prefers to do it himself. When Harry decided to go after the Stone, he is somewhat shocked that Ron and Hermione are planning to go along. He doesn't make allowances for other people to help because never in his earlier life was there every anyone there he could trust or count on to help. This is deeply ingrained learned behavior. Along with this is that Harry isn't very sensitive to other people's feeling, and by extension, he is not very good at reading other people's moods. Of course, he isn't, Harry was the prey and the rest of the world was the predator, and to a significant extent that is still going on. Harry doesn't have time to weigh other people's attitudes, he is busy summoning all the cunning and guile he can muster in order to survive. When you have been preyed upon you whole life, you learn very quickly that the only person you can count on is yourself, and that's just what Harry does. Usually when I bring this up, people point out the surely Harry can trust Ron and Hermione, surely he respects and trusts Dumbledore, surely all his new experiences since he came to Hogwarts have taught him that there are good and safe people in the world, and they would be right, but only within very limiting boundaries. What happened in the first 11 years of Harry's life is ingrained in him forever. These are traits and characteristics that adults stuggle to overcome for their entire lives and frequently never accomplish it completely. Those early experiences have formed Harry in a way that he can never completely overcome. He may with time and supportive friends learn to work around them, but they are Harry and there is no truly escaping them. The new things he's learned since arriving at Hogwarts, these are mostly intellectual realizations; he knows them in his mind but deep in his core he doesn't feel them. I think JKR has done an extremely fine job of creating a character that has characteristics that are inescapable given where and how he grew up and has tempered those negatives with a character that also is extremely stubborn and self-determined. Someone with a strong enough sense of self-worth that even at that young age he knew with confidence that the Dursleys were wrong about him. She has created a character that has a striking, and strikingly positive, blend of the dark that life has forced on him coupled with the unwavering light of good that exists within him. >From Harry not asking questions to his seeming unawareness of other people's feelings, I think can all be explained by his earlier life at the Dursleys, and given how dark and terrible that life was, I think through strength of character, a remarkably unscathed and unscarred boy/man has emerged. He does have his faults, but overall, he is a remarkably good kid. Steve/bboyminn From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed May 25 08:00:40 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 08:00:40 -0000 Subject: Snape as Perfectionist (WAS Rampant Ingratitude) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129442 > Bookworm: > Gerry, I think your two comments contradict each other. Gerry Ah, I see what you mean. I'll be a bit clearer. A teacher that is interested in his students reaching their full potential would see Neville Longbottom as a challenge. No matter how low Nevilli's full potential in potions would be, he would love to bring it out. He would want all his students to do well, not only because he himself loves the subject, but also because he wants help his students to learn as much as they can within their own limits, and love this subject too. He would concentrate on the joy he finds in students wo can learn, and do love his subject, not concentrate on the attitude of the others. Lupin is an example of such a teacher. I agree with you that Snape is a perfectionist, only interested in the best. But he does not have a clue, that you can nurture love of a subject. His very speech is an example of that: "I don't expect you...". He can teach "how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death" if his students are not dunderheads and he makes it abundantly clear that he considers most of his students dunderheads. And so sets himself up for dissapointment time and time again. Because he cannot be glad for a student when he has done better than expected, he cannot get joy from a mediocre student who loves potions, he only sees that most of his students do not love his subject, are not interested in working hard, or are just nog very good in potions. And his anwer to that is fear. I think he genuinely believes that fear is the answer to a lazy student. And it might work in a lot of cases. But not for everyone. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed May 25 09:15:49 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 09:15:49 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129443 > Post 47924 Porphyria: > > Of course what I tried to stress in saying that Snape is a cast-off > > animus (for you Jungians out there) is that he's exactly what women > > don't get to be. Snape isn't effeminate at all; he's tough, > > aggressive, competitive, hardnosed, unforgiving, exacting, etc. > > > > But on the other hand, there are some feminine (or yin) aspects to > > Snape's depiction, aren't there? For one thing, I find it > intriguing > > that his craft is the one most often associated with (female) > > witches; brewing in a cauldron, as opposed to the traditional > > depiction of wizards with their really big staffs. In fact, he > > disdains 'silly wand waving' (because of its overly phallic > > obviousness?), instead praising the 'subtle' art of potions with > > their more sneaky, devious ways (and feminine symbolism). Here I'm > > sort of smooshing together western "feminine" with "yin" which is > > also dark, negative, the color black, the night, etc. Still, I'm > > reminded of a remark of sydpad's from post #43029 where we were > also > > discussing Snape and wands vs. cauldrons: Gerry I wonder in what kind of society this Porphyria lives, that she has such a stereotypical view of what woman can be or cannot be. As for the anima-animus rubbish: if you look at the associations a society considers male or female you get an excellent look at what the dominant gender considers attractive and worth attributing to themselves. Feminine symbolism has nothing to dot with women, but is a cultural pattern. As for the cauldron: I love potions because it is so much more complicated than most other subjects. Waving a wand, saying the words, not remotely as interesting as mixing together all kinds of interesting plant and animal parts. Ofcourse in reality I would probably hate potions because it is such an exact science, no room for a bit of freewheeling. Gerry From marilynpeake at cs.com Wed May 25 04:51:50 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 04:51:50 -0000 Subject: The Harry Potter Books & Jungian Philosophy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129444 I recently reread Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, and came upon something that I hadn't particularly noticed during my first time reading the book - a certain insight into the nature of reality. At the end of Chapter 12, Professor Dumbledore warns Harry about the Mirror of Erised. Dumbledore says: "The Mirror will be moved to a new home tomorrow, Harry, and I ask you not to go looking for it again. If you ever do run across it, you will now be prepared. It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that. Now, why don't you put that admirable cloak back on and get off to bed?" What struck me about the line "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live ..." is that it is in stark contrast to the rich and colorful emphasis on pursuing one's dreams in the Harry Potter books, as well as Harry's recurrent dream about Voldemort. In that respect, J.K. Rowling's writing is very similar to the work of the psychiatrist Carl Jung. Jung created elaborate artistic paintings. In his psychiatric work, he valued and analyzed dreams. However, he taught that, if a form of therapy did not elucidate reality, then reality would eventually rear its head and hurt the patient; therefore, therapy had to be in tune with reality. Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Wed May 25 03:02:07 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 23:02:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SS/PS Passing through the guarding spells In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4293EAAF.5090901@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129445 Linda (ginny343) wrote: > So, how was Quirrel able to pass? I think the stone was being hidden > from > everyone, not just students, so I would assume older wizards > wouldn't be able to just walk through some of the tests without > having to do them. I have also wondered whether, if Harry hadn't shown up, if Quirrell would have just been stuck... Dumbledore's spell made it such that only one who wanted to find the stone, find it but not use it, would be able to get it. So if Harry hadn't gone after it, Quirrell never would have gotten it, would he? Of course, then we wouldn't have had Harry defeat Quirrell/Voldemort by virtue of touch, but still.... Any thoughts? Michelle From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 25 12:05:28 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:05:28 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129446 > > Post 47924 Porphyria: > snip Snape isn't effeminate at all; he's tough, > > > aggressive, competitive, hardnosed, unforgiving, exacting, etc. > > > > > > But on the other hand, there are some feminine (or yin) aspects to > > > Snape's depiction, aren't there? For one thing, I find it > > intriguing > > > that his craft is the one most often associated with (female) > > > witches; brewing in a cauldron, as opposed to the traditional > > > depiction of wizards with their really big staffs. In fact, he > > > disdains 'silly wand waving' (because of its overly phallic > > > obviousness?), instead praising the 'subtle' art of potions with > > > their more sneaky, devious ways (and feminine symbolism). Here I'm > > > sort of smooshing together western "feminine" with "yin" which is > > > also dark, negative, the color black, the night, etc. > Gerry wrote: > I wonder in what kind of society this Porphyria lives, that she has > such a stereotypical view of what woman can be or cannot be. Potioncat: Oh, I don't know, I saw a good deal of validity in her comments. Not being in the business world, or active in non-traditional roles, I don't know if it still applies in the marketplace. But there are a great deal of gender-specific expectations out there. And I am old enough to think boys and girls "are" different. Of course I think Porphyria intended her comments to be more symbolism/cultural than specific. I asked in an earlier post if anyone could think of another wizard from our collective magical stories who made potions. Certainly, it's witches that generally use cauldrons. But for that matter, I'm not sure that wizards rode brooms either. It doesn't take much imagination to get wand=male cauldron=female as far as symbolism goes. On the other hand, JKR based Snape on her chemistry teacher; and Potions would be the closest magic to chemistry, IMO. Perhaps no symbolism was intended at all. I tried, but don't really know how to go about it, to find an article about JKR's chemistry teacher. He never knew he was the model for Snape. His wife had figured it out. His associates knew. But he didn't have a clue. A slight variation of his name is used in that first Potions class, too. From allisonotto at gmail.com Wed May 25 12:50:53 2005 From: allisonotto at gmail.com (allison_m_otto) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:50:53 -0000 Subject: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: <80f25c3a0505242026502454a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: While Harry's glasses improve > his ordinary vision, I think he is vulnerable *because* he wears > glasses. I think his eyes harbor a power that Harry will be able to > use against Voldemort, but the glasses block that power. (Yeah, so > that means that somewhere in the final battle, Harry's glasses will be knocked off, unlocking the means of defeating Voldemort. . . .) snipped While I'm having trouble coming up with a > clever theory as to the nature of the power I think is concealed > behind Harry's glasses (it's obviously not something so mundane as > Legilimency), logically it would involve inner sight. Too often our > ability to truly "see" (i.e., to understand) is obscured by the sights that demand our attention. Taking away Harry's temporal vision (by removing his glasses) might allow his magical vision to take center stage. > Clever. Although I think it's also possible that it's the reverse, i.e. that Harry's glasses have been protecting him from magic in some way. We know, for example, that those who saw the basilisk's eyes through a lens (Colin with his camera, Justin through the "lens" of NHN) were only petrified and not killed, just like those who only saw the reflection in water or a mirror. We also know that Legilimency, for those who are less connected than Voldemort and Harry, depends to a large extent on eye contact. Perhaps to have the strongest connection, i.e. for Voldemort to really control Harry rather than simply possessing him but allowing him to still think as Harry (as in OotP), Voldemort needs clear eye contact unfiltered by lenses. Perhaps his glasses have been protecting the window into his soul from the strongest magical intrusion, a "death" of his real self (which would undoubtedly precede the death of his physical self). Why would it be important for him to have his mother's green eyes then? I think the speculation that Lily's eyes had something to do with the rebounded AK is really interesting. I also think it is possible that Debbie's right and his eyes are the key to some sort of love-related power; however, I would speculate that maybe his glasses are necessary protection and filter until such time as that power is fully realized, otherwise Voldemort could just get into his mind and trump the power. -Allison (been gone for a while, but have now finished law school and have time for more important things, like HP) From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Wed May 25 12:59:16 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:59:16 -0000 Subject: Ruddy stargazers and The Prophecy (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129448 Our first meeting with the centaurs is in PS, in The Forbidden Forest. We are first introduced to Ronan and Bane by Hagrid in the lovely "Mars is bright tonight" conversation. Hagrid later says "... Keep themselves to themselves mostly [...] they know things ... jus' don' let on much." Then Firenze rescues Harry, and Bane gets all cross with him, annoyed that Firenze has stooped to the level of letting a (spit) human (spit) ride on his back, and miffed that he set himself against the stars. So what had they seen? What was Firenze *trying* to prevent, and what did he *actually* prevent? I suspect that what they saw was Harry's blood being used (in conjunction with unicorn blood, probably) to re-corporate Voldemort. I suspect that they also saw that Harry would escape this encounter, thus what Firenze intended was *not* to save Harry, (that was just a lucky side-effect) but to prevent Voldy's return. Turns out he comes back anyway. That's the problem with trying to tell the future, if you're any good at it, the future you predict ought to take into account your own actions which result from having predicted that future. So to speak. So what did Firenze *actually* prevent? Presumably Quirrell!Mort would have fired some spells at Harry, but with Quirrell's wand, not Voldy's, so no chance for the reverse spell effect to save his neck... who knows? Personally I don't think it's that important. And note Firenze's reaction to Bane getting cross: Firenze suddenly reared on to his hind legs in anger, so that Harry had to grab his shoulders to stay on. "Do you not see that unicorn?" Firenze bellowed at Bane. "Do you not understand why it was killed? Or have the planets not let you in on that secret? I set myself against what is lurking in this Forest, Bane, yes, with humans alongside me if I must." Firstly, I take from this that Voldemort is not kindly disposed to centaurs. Firenze expects Bane to immediately understand why he intervened and saved Harry, because whatislurkingintheforest is commonly known to be A Bad Thing. Secondly, I get a sense that no centaur really *likes* humans, though some are more contemptuous of them than others. Thirdly it puts Firenze firmly in the "We must all unite and stand together against evil, whether we happen to like each other's company or not." (Which in case you need it pointing out, is Dumbledore's side.) And fourthly, it's the groundwork for the division amongst the centaurs (possibly Firenze against all the others), that we saw in OotP. One side insists they should stay passive and not try to avert the things foretold (which makes one wonder just what the point of them telling the future is at all, perhaps centaurs just enjoy being smug and right), and the other side says "but we might have got it wrong, and dammit we ought to *try* to make the world a better place, even if the stars say we will fail." No prizes for guessing whose side I reckon JKR is on. I can't remember (and am too lazy to check) whether centaurs were mentioned in PoA, CoS or GoF. I'm going to move on to what happens in OotP. GoF and OotP are too long anyway, and JKR insists that she couldn't cut any of it out because she wants readers to have clues, so that we don't turn around at the end and say "That's cheating!" So the big question is: Did JKR introduce a second Divination teacher to Hogwarts, a teacher of a subject that Harry is *not* going to take for NEWTs, and left him there, apparently unable to go home, simply so that we had a way of getting rid of Umbridge and a clue about Grawp? We will be starting HBP with *two* divination teachers. Shame neither of them seem like good candidates for DADA, or I'd bet one of them switches. But perhaps Trelawney would turn out to be a good potions teacher, so Snape could move to DADA, and we'd still have opportunities for Harry-Trelawney interaction and new prophetic disclosures. (Precisely the sort of thing that is irritatingly unpredictable from our point of view, unless there's a tradition of prophecies coming in threes that I don't know about). Anyway, he didn't move into the castle because the forested classroom DD offered him came with free climate control ("No, I don't fancy rain today, move the dial to ... Mediterranean summer evening"). I'm betting he's got something important to do, and I suspect that it will be to do with interpreting The Prophecy. Not because I have any evidence, mind, just because I like the idea that DD has good reason to stop Voldy knowing the whole thing, over and above getting him to show himself at the DoM, and not because it's a nice distraction to keep him busy and out of the Order's hair. DD says something about Voldy wanting the prophecy so he could find out how to kill Harry, but the prophecy appears to say no such thing. What's going on? It's mostly Sirius' fault that I think like this - they're in the amphitheatre with the archway, fighting for their lives, the order have just arrived but Dumbledore hasn't yet, and Sirius says: "Harry, take the prophecy, grab Neville and run!" Fighting for their lives, remember? The only kid who can get rid of Voldy for good is in mortal peril, and his godfather wastes time *making sure that he takes The Prophecy with him*. Why? Why bother? DD already knows it, if the information Voldy would gain would not tell him how to destroy Harry, which is apparently why he spent OotP trying to get hold of it. I think there's more to it than a bluff to keep the DEs interested and wasting their time. Let me be clear (or try to be, at any rate): I don't think there is a way of interpreting the prophecy so that Harry doesn't have to kill Voldy and/or Voldy doesn't have to kill Harry. I don't think any of the straightforward reading is negotiable, but then syntactic gymnastics was never my strong point. It's the "neither can live while the other survives" that is is ambiguous. DD explains all the other parts to Harry: "Power to vanquish the Dark Lord," "Thrice defied," "Seventh month," "Marked as equal," "Power the Dark Lord knows not," and "either must die at the hand of the other" all get explained, but not the "neither can live while the other survives." I assume this is what JKR was referring to in the FAQ answer. I can't think what it might mean, but we'll leave that ? even if I could come up with a guess it would be wrong, so I shan't try. But IMO *that's* the bit that Voldy would be interested in. He knows about that sort of thing, see, surviving when you have no business doing so. That bouncing AK in the face which should have been permanent. There has been much speculation about the clue JKR gave us, that we should be wondering what Voldy did to stop himself dying at GH, and much of that has concluded that whatever it was he did, Snape knows, and possibly helped. (For the record, I don't think he helped: "They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" Voldy's in his mid-70's, a decade and a half isn't *long ago* - but Voldy implies that all the DEs knew what he'd done before the GH debacle, so Snape must know too.) Which makes the following question leap up and down with its hand in the air like Hermione on a sugar high: If Snape knows the entire prophecy and he knows about the immortality experiments, shouldn't he have picked up on this ambiguous clause? And Snape was/is DD's spy, so he should have told DD about the experiments, and DD should make the connection, too. I reckon this is what we need Firenze for, linking two pieces of information that would have told Voldy how to destroy Harry, but instead (done by the good guys) telling Harry how to destroy Voldy. But remember way back in PS: "Never," said Hagrid irritably, "try an' get a straight answer out of a centaur. Ruddy star-gazers. Not interested in anythin' closer'n the moon." So it might not be quite that straightforward. Firenze has shown himself willing not only to save people when their lives are in danger, but to actively work against Voldemort. So is he just teaching, or will he join the Order too? I'll admit to being intrigued as to how Snape and Firenze get along, since they're both rather aloof. And how will Snape react when he finds out that Harry really is the most special little chap in the whole school? I doubt it'll be pretty. (Hooray!) More importantly, if DD's dead by then, who's going to keep Harry and Snape from each others' throats? Damnation. Is it still only May? Dungrollin Begging forgiveness for rambling. From scolere at gmail.com Wed May 25 11:23:01 2005 From: scolere at gmail.com (Sass) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:23:01 +0100 Subject: Did James wear glasses? (Re: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses?) In-Reply-To: <1116991586.8529.25631.m29@yahoogroups.com> References: <1116991586.8529.25631.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129449 sophierom: > Sight does seem to be an important theme in the book. There's > Trelawney with her occasionally accurate sight (despite her > fraudulent ways and big, huge glasses). There's also the basilisk in > CoS, whose sight is key to his powers. And I'm sure there are many > more references to sight and blindness Sass now: Don't forget the idea that eyes are windows to the soul... Could be important/relevant, esp. as LV seems pretty soulless... Sass -- "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed May 25 13:05:43 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:05:43 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Passing through the guarding spells In-Reply-To: <4293EAAF.5090901@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129450 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michelle Crowe > > I have also wondered whether, if Harry hadn't shown up, if Quirrell > would have just been stuck... Dumbledore's spell made it such that > only one who wanted to find the stone, find it but not use it, would > be able to get it. So if Harry hadn't gone after it, Quirrell never > would have gotten it, would he? Voldie's a bright guy. Given enough time, he probably would have figured out a way around the enchantments on the Mirror of Erised. If nothing else, he could have had Quirrel shrink the Mirror, put it in his pocket, and take it to the Chamber of Secrets, where they could work on it at their leisure. Amiable Dorsai From evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com Wed May 25 12:04:51 2005 From: evil_sushi2003 at hotmail.com (evil_sushi2003) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 12:04:51 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129451 potioncat wrote: > Snape is not described in appealing ways, yet he has a large fan > base. What is his appeal? snip > post #47913: > *extremely dutiful* mothers,teachers and nurses who simply feel the > pressure to be compassionate and tender-hearted all the time. It's > a heavy burden. snip > So Snape is deliciously enjoyable because, as a literary character, > he can get away with all the nastiness he wants and we can enjoy > it vicariously without actually hurting anyone in the Real World. > So I think the reason that the vast majority of Snape's admirers > are female is that he represents the vindictive, resentful flipside > of the "female" role that is foreclosed to real women who feel > obliged to appear "feminine" by typical cultural standards. > ~Porphyria E.S.: I have to say that I think it is the nuturing side of women rather that the vindicative, repressed side of women that, like any 'bab- boy' Snape appeals to. I suppose that everyone has their own theories about Snape's past- quite blatantly bullying, which can be bad enough without anything additional. I think that the appeal of Snape to women can be a) that they want to mother him and look after him. OR b) they want to be his lover because they feel that Snape's feelings are repressed, and love could overcome that and Snape would be the more positive person which he is deep down. Psychologically, I would say that women want to 'save' Snape, from their interpretation of his personality. And, as women are (mostly) good at all things intuitive, I wouldn't doubt their interpretations. Just a thought~ Evil sushi From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed May 25 13:38:14 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:38:14 -0000 Subject: The Harry Potter Books & Jungian Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129452 Marilyn: > What struck me about the line "It does not do > to dwell on dreams and forget to live ..." is that it is in stark > contrast to the rich and colorful emphasis on pursuing one's dreams > in the Harry Potter books, as well as Harry's recurrent dream about > Voldemort. In that respect, J.K. Rowling's writing is very similar > to the work of the psychiatrist Carl Jung. Jung created elaborate > artistic paintings. In his psychiatric work, he valued and analyzed > dreams. However, he taught that, if a form of therapy did not > elucidate reality, then reality would eventually rear its head and > hurt the patient; therefore, therapy had to be in tune with reality. Jen: Several of Jung's key concepts are explored throughout the series, especially the dreams like you mentioned, Marilyn. Mainly I see Jungian theory as another model to put over the series and explain some of the events going on, especially interactions between the characters. The concept of opposites is seen everywhere, symbolized primarily by the Harry/Voldemort connection, and how Voldemort created his own 'dual' nature in Harry when he cast the killing curse that failed. The theory of opposites holds that Harry and Voldemort aren't separate--one exists because of the other. We wouldn't be cheering Harry on through his trials and tribulations if Voldemort never existed. The force created, Harry attempting to defeat Evil, and the characters (readers) mobilizing behind him, wouldn't happen if Voldemort was not threatening destruction of the WW. And that force created between the opposite poles is really the crucial part of the story. My favorite example of opposites is the Dementor and the Patronus, with the Patronus a projection of Good facing the Evil soul-sucking Dementors. Another aspect of Jung's work is seen primarily in OOTP, the Shadow Side. Sirius was probably the best example of a character doing battle with his shadow side, but many members of the Order, and Harry also, had to battle the dark forces within during OOTP. Even DD seems to have had many doubts throughout the year about his 'plan' and the actions he was taking. Snape is a wonderful Shadow figure for Harry, a projection of all Harry abhors in the beginning, but now a very complex figure who makes Harry question all he holds dear. And Snape actually gave over to his shadow when he became a DE, so he is an important opposite to Harry as well. Rowling does seem to hold that death is simply the "next great adventure," and the series at the core explores death and the different way humans view death. Also crucial is how their views affect their choices in life. That's a very Jungian idea, that birth and death are simply opposites and humans are the ones who put good/bad value judgements on the concepts. It is fun to speculate about it, and if I'm remembering right, a picture was taken of JKR in front of a bookcase with Agatha Christie, Jung and other books behind her--possibly the writers who influenced the series?! Jen, who isn't a psychologist but did read a little Jung along the way. From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 25 13:44:54 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:44:54 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129453 >>"lupinlore" wrote: > Over on Sugar Quill there has been a mini-discussion on the following topic: Have any of the adults ever admonished Snape for his attitude toward Harry? What do you all think? Potioncat: I can think of two times, excuse me for not quoting actual pages. The first is in CoS when they are examining Harry and Mrs. Norris. McG bristles at Snape's suggestion that Harry be denied Quidditch until he tells the truth. She says something along the line of "the cat wasn't hit with a broom." The second is in GoF, when Snape seems to suggest Harry cheated, but McG says that if DD believes him, that should be good enough for anyone. Not exactly an admonishment, but the closest I can recall. Lupinlore (with a good bit of snipping): > One possibility is that they (probably Lupin, McGonagall, and I > suspect maybe even Dumbledore) have, and found out it does no good > whatsoever. snip > > Now, this line of thought goes, what on earth can Dumbledore do? snip Dumbledore can't afford to do more than make disapproving noises, > because he can't afford to back up any threats. Potioncat: I'm only responding to one theory here, and I've snipped a great deal of it...for brevity's sake. But here's why I disagree with this one. DD is the only wizard LV fears. McG has mentioned DD's great skills and powers. Snape has mentioned DD's strength.(during Occlumency lessons.) We've seen two episodes where characters talk about how frightening DD is when he's angry. One was the episode when the dementors came to the Quidditch game (was it Hermione or Lupin who described DD's anger?) and the other is when they find out MM is Crouch!Moody and Harry sees DD's anger. I don't think DD would have any trouble making Snape behave. Unless of course Severus/Dumbledore interactions are just like Harry/Snape interactions. ;-) But I don't think so. I really don't know why Snape is allowed to treat students the way he does. What is JKR thinking/saying here? Perhaps JKR and DD know something about Snape we don't. Perhaps they, or at least DD, care about Snape and are making allowances. Picture it now: Yearly Evaluation, DD says, "Well, Severus, you've made improvements. This year we only had 10 complaints from students' parents. Keep up the good work and let's make 5 our goal for next year..." As for the Occlumencey lessons...there is a big piece of information, if not several pieces, that we are missing. We don't know if we really know why Harry was taking lessons. I'm not convinced it wasn't so Snape could find out what was going on. We don't know when DD found out about the Pensieve incident or who told him or what was said between Snape and DD. And the last piece is where we fans really fill in the blanks with our own particular outlook and with very different outcomes. Potioncat From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 25 13:46:32 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 06:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP/ Spoiler alert In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050525134632.23557.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129454 Someone from another unrelated list sent this to me. Has anyone here seen this? I didn't see it in recent posts but sorry if its been discussed. Don't click on the article unless you want to see a *possible* spoiler. theotokos Betting pattern on the next major character to die in HP, now points to a leak from the publishers. There is also a possible spoiler for who is the Half Blood Prince. http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1491128,00.html? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed May 25 13:59:13 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:59:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050525135913.3463.qmail@web86207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129455 --- potioncat wrote: > I really don't know why Snape is allowed to treat > students the way he > does. Could it be because other Hogwarts teachers (and Dumbledore) don't consider his treatment to be such a crime against humanity as some of the posters here? :-) McGonagall is certainly amused by Harry's horror of "Potions?!" during his career consultation in OoTP. Somebody mentioned today the program about JRK school days. I remember it well, and the other teachers from her school were speaking about Snape's prototype. Something to the lines of: Our science teacher came from a grammar school. So he was used to a certain level of attitude and achievement, and he was determined to get it out of students. Oh, they didn't like him very much for that, not at all. All that was again, with the attitude of amusement, from his colleagues. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Wed May 25 14:32:10 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 14:32:10 -0000 Subject: Snape and Harry (Re: Annoyed with Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129456 > Those early experiences have formed Harry in a way that he can never > completely overcome. He may with time and supportive friends learn to > work around them, but they are Harry and there is no truly escaping them. Gerry: What saved Harry, I think is that he knew from an early age that the Dursley's were not his parents. So he could have dreams about his real parents, who loved him. As the Dursleys undoubtedly made their opinion of his parents no secret, this likely made it easier for him to keep a sense of self, and not ingraine the opinion the Dursleys have of him. Now compare this with Snape, who quite likely came from an abusive family as well. But as this was his real family, the damage ran much deeper. At Hogwarts, Harry found true friends. Also enemies, but he was never bullied. Snape was bullied at Hogwarts, and we don't know if he had any true friends. He was part of a gang of Slytherins, yes, but were they friends? I'd love to know. Snape is and was ugly, with crooked yellow teeth and greasy hair (which I'm sure are not because of a lack of hygiene, but just the way he is). And ofcourse Snape was poor and Harry is not. Harry was prey until he went to Hogwarts. Snape was prey all his youth. I think the lesson you are either prey or preditor is one that is ingrained in Snape, much more than in Harry. That is probably one of the reasons he joined the DE's. I think it is another reason why he does not have any compassion at all for children. He knows too well what they are capable of. Either through their actions or as by standing by, letting it happen or enjoying it. So age is just not something he takes into account when dealing with others (for everyone who thinks he just picks on children, remember him dealing with Lockheart?). Being a teacher probably means for him finally being in a place of power, where they cannot harm him, but oh yes, he can harm them if he wants to. He cannot see bullying or letting it happen as immature behaviour they need to grow out of. I think he sees it as a fundamental characteristic of most human beings, and one of the reasons he likes to intimidate people is that he learned having to upper hand means he is safe. I think Snape not only dislikes Harry because of his father, but also because Harry got everything Snape ever wanted. He is recognized without having anything to do for it. He has money, he has friends, he has respect. He is special, and he did not do anything for it. He sticks his nose in things that do not concern him, and becomes a hero. Whatever Snape will do, he can never, ever compete with Harry. That means that to Harry, Snape can become prey again, unless he makes sure that will not enter Harry's mind. Ofcourse it would not enter Harry's mind because Harry does not think that way, but Snape does. Gerry From lhuntley at fandm.edu Wed May 25 14:53:05 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:53:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129457 Amiable Dorsai: >> At this point, Dumbledore has been dead wrong about three teachers. >> >> These misjudgements have very nearly cost Harry his life on several >> occasions. Not to mention getting him cut, kidnapped, Crucioed, and >> nearly Obliviated. >> >> I doubt that even Dumbledore would think that Harry was being >> disloyal if he thinks for himself on this issue. BG: > Dead wrong? Maybe, but remember from each DADA professor Harry has > learned a valuable lesson that will serve him well: > > Quirrell - don't judge a person on outside appearance > Lockhart - don't let fame go to your head > Lupin - what friendship and loyalty really mean > Mad-Eye (Crouch, Jr) - be careful who you trust > Umbridge - even those in the highest authority can be corupt Well, with the right attitude, one can learn a positive lesson from just about any bad experience (and many good experiences as well). I don't think this fact has any bearing on whether or not Dumbledore severely misjudged Quirrell, Lockhart, or Fake!Moody. Unless, of course, you are arguing for PuppetMaster!Dumbledore, who engineers horrible experiences for Harry to endure with the goal of Making Him A Stronger Fighter -- that's enough discussion altogether. ^_^ Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 25 15:14:41 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:14:41 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Over on Sugar Quill there has been a mini-discussion on the following topic: Have any of the adults ever admonished Snape for his attitude toward Harry? What do you all think? > > My own inclination is to say we just don't know. But there are > several possibilities. > Pippin: Another possibility is that Dumbledore believes in tolerance. We know that JKR considers tolerance very important. We are probably more aware of tolerance in a non-judgmental live and let live sense, but as an ethical principle it means something different. Those in power may not enforce a moral good if some greater good would be lost or some greater evil would be perpetrated. However Snape treats Harry, he still chooses to protect him with his life. That is a good that should not be lost and not a choice any Hogwarts teacher would make, not when it means defying the most powerful evil wizard who ever existed. Beyond that I think Dumbledore values honor over loyalty. He would rather have people disagree with him as a matter of priniciple than abandon their convictions out of fear or even personal loyalty. After all, if Snape left Voldemort because his debt of honor to James outweighed his fear of Voldemort and his loyalty to his old friends, then to undermine Snape's sense of honor would be unwise indeed. But could Snape possibly see his behavior toward Harry as honorable? I think he could. Snape sees the potential to be arrogant and self-centered in Harry, and thinks he is dealing with it in the proper way. Doubtless he is right about the potential, because the Sorting Hat saw it too. It is true that Harry rejected Slytherin, but did he do so because there is not a selfish bone in his body, or because he didn't want to acknowledge that part of himself? Pippin From lhuntley at fandm.edu Wed May 25 15:17:00 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 11:17:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129459 Gerry: > I wonder in what kind of society this Porphyria lives, that she has > such a stereotypical view of what woman can be or cannot be. The problem with bring up these lovely old posts from ages and ages ago is that we lose all sense of context (Porphyria's theory must seem like a very out-of-the-blue kind of idea to you, but within the framework of what HPfGU was generally discussing at the time, it was not at all unusual). I think you may have misinterpreted Porphyria's actual views on this matter -- I don't think she was saying that she *buys* these stereotypes -- she is merely acknowledging the place they have in what I will, for lack of a better term, call our "societal subconscious". Of course, very few (educated) people nowadays will actively espouse the traditional "feminine" and "masculine" roles, but the fact remains that they are ingrained in our culture. Sure, that culture *is* changing, but the old sex roles and their imagery still affect our actions and thoughts in subtle and pervasive ways. > As for the anima-animus rubbish: if you look at the associations a > society considers male or female you get an excellent look at what the > dominant gender considers attractive and worth attributing to > themselves. Feminine symbolism has nothing to dot with women, but is a > cultural pattern. It's unfortunate that she is not around to speak for herself, but I don't think Porphyria would disagree with this statement at all. In fact, her entire theory is based on the divide between what women are *supposed to be* and what they *are*. I suspect the "anima-animus rubbish" was simply introduced into the argument because it was a ready-made set of concepts that Porphyria could build off of with the assumption that everyone was already familiar with them. We used to do a lot more Jungian analysis around here. ^_~ Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From katherine.coble at crgibson.com Wed May 25 15:31:40 2005 From: katherine.coble at crgibson.com (mycropht33) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:31:40 -0000 Subject: The bookmakers' odds and the outcome of the next book Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129460 s p o i l e r s http://books.guardian.co.uk/harrypotter/story/0,10761,1491128,00.html?gusrc=rss Apparently bookmakers in GB have long been taking bets on who dies in the book and who the HBP is. After an odd spike in bets coming out of the town where the book is printed, the odds are now on s p o i l e r Dumbledore dying Dean Thomas being the HBP From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 25 15:45:26 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:45:26 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129461 Amiable Dorsai: Well, I don't know who would be a better authority than the person it was actually happening to. And it is an established fact that Snape terminated the lessons. Pippin: No harm in that if they weren't *working* --you can't have it both ways. And as Harry has learned so little about occlumency, he's hardly an authority. Amiable Dorsai: Yep. In this case his action was implying to a student in his charge that it was OK to break the law for trivial purposes. Pippin: I think you've missed my point. Learning the truth about Harry's midnight rambling and suspected pilfering was not trivial under the circumstances. There was a Death Eater loose and Harry was obstructing a criminal investigation, not to mention putting himself in danger. Snape couldn't be sure Harry wasn't being used by the baddie (as indeed he was). Amiable Dorsai (129415): At this point, Dumbledore has been dead wrong about three teachers. Pippin: And Snape has been dead right -- about Quirrell and Lockhart, and he was probably right about Lupin too. If it's okay for Harry, whose brain is channeling Voldemort, to think for himself, why not Snape? Pippin From nkafkafi at yahoo.com Wed May 25 15:48:56 2005 From: nkafkafi at yahoo.com (nkafkafi) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:48:56 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129462 Lupinlore wrote: > Over on Sugar Quill there has been a mini-discussion on the following > topic: Have any of the adults ever admonished Snape for his attitude > toward Harry? What do you all think? > Neri: You mean like: "Professor Snape!" shrieked Madam Pomfrey. "Control yourself!" I think this might be termed admoinition Neri From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 16:27:46 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:27:46 -0000 Subject: Teaching Neville & Blood Prejudice(was:Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129463 >>Betsy: >In *this* case, Neville had been assigned to do the potion *on his own*. Hermione, in this case, was cheating. She's lucky she and Neville didn't get expelled. (And as Hermione made sure that Neville didn't actually learn Potions, might it not be argued that Snape hopefully taught them a small amount of ethics?)< >>Amiable Dorsai: >No difference between the two cases--Neville was no more told to do it "on his own" in this instance than in the other, nor, if we are to engage in the sort of logic chopping you claim Snape is playing at, did he tell Hermione not to help him--"I don't remember asking you to show off, Miss Granger,"-- was all he said. Hermione didn't show off; she helped Neville quietly and without drawing attention to herself.< Betsy: Right, you force me to go to the books . "A few cauldrons away, Neville was in trouble. [...] His potion, which was supposed to be a bright, acid green, had turned -- "Orange, Longbottom," said Snape, ladling some up and allowing it to splash back into the cauldron, so that everyone could see. "Orange. Tell me, boy, does anything penetrate that thick skull of yours? Didn't you hear me say, quite clearly, that only one rat spleen was needed? Didn't I state plainly that a dash of leech juice would suffice? What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" [...] "Please, sir," said Hermione, "please, I could help Neville put it right --" "I don't remember asking you to show off, Miss Granger," said Snape coldly..." (PoA scholastic hardback pp. 125-126) It would take a major twist of logic indeed to presume that Snape actually *does* want Hermione to "help" Neville. (And I don't recall claiming Snape is not logical.) To make it even clearer that Snape wishes Neville to continue on his own, Snape assigns him a mini-exam. "Longbottom, at the end of this lesson we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly." (ibid p.126) Snape sets a task before Neville, with the hope that he's given the boy enough motivation to reach his full potential. Hermione sabatoges Snape's efforts. And Hermione is fully aware that she is cheating. "Hermione was muttering instructions to him out of the corner of her mouth, so that Snape wouldn't see." (ibid p. 127) By telling Neville exactly what to do, Hermione prevents Neville from learning on his own, reinforces Neville's belief that he can't do potions and gets in the way of Snape's efforts to get through to a troubled student. Hermione was trying to be nice, but she acted as an enabler and in the end did Neville no favors. >>Betsy: >And you'll notice that Pureblood Ron gets disciplined, so I don't think a blood prejuidice is really going to fly. (Does he ever pick on Dean?)< >>Amiable Dorsai: >Dunno about Dean, but Ron is a blood traitor from a family of blood traitors. The man who once called Lily Evans a "mudblood" might find that an interesting distinction.< Betsy: The *boy* who called Lily Evans a mudblood might, but that boy is dead. The man who left the Death Eaters and risks his life for the Order has yet to display any blood prejudice. The reason you don't know about Dean is because Dean has never been picked on. Rather strange behaviour for someone who's supposedly obsessed with blood purity. What Ron is, besides a blood traitor from a family of blood traitors, is a Gryffindor from a family of Gryffindors. And a boy who has just smarted off to Snape. I'm quite sure those last two traits are what get Ron punished. Betsy From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 16:34:40 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:34:40 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Passing through the guarding spells In-Reply-To: <4293EAAF.5090901@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129464 >>Michelle: >I have also wondered whether, if Harry hadn't shown up, if Quirrell would have just been stuck... Dumbledore's spell made it such that only one who wanted to find the stone, find it but not use it, would be able to get it. So if Harry hadn't gone after it, Quirrell never would have gotten it, would he?< Betsy: This is *exactly* why I think Dumbledore had *no* thoughts of Harry going after the Stone. Dumbledore has set a trap, a way to catch the dark wizard or witch going after the Stone in the first place. It was not a testing ground for young Harry. Harry very nearly screwed the entire plan and very nearly got himself and his friends killed. I think Dumbledore was happy Harry made it through, and I think he was happy Harry showed such amazing initiative, but I think he was *horrified* when he first realized Harry had gone after the Stone. Those are my thoughts anyway. :) Betsy From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed May 25 17:26:13 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050525172614.62424.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129465 --- lupinlore wrote: > Over on Sugar Quill there has been a mini-discussion on the > following topic: Have any of the adults ever admonished Snape for > his attitude toward Harry? What do you all think? The underlying assumption here is that Snape is so awful and terrible an experience for Harry that others should intervene. And I don't see that. Sorry. Snape's a git and an all-around nasty guy, but he's still within the limits of crappy teacherdom in the real world that we live in. (And while I don't want to offend the teachers on the list - come on, guys, we know it's true; everyone has Snape-clone horror stories.) And the child-centred North American model of education obviously doesn't apply in the wizarding world; we should be wary about assuming that our standards are applied around the world and that if they're not, then the other society is wrong. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 25 17:30:04 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 17:30:04 -0000 Subject: FILK: Once in Love with Lily Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129466 Once in Love With Lily A filk by Pippin (with apologies for movie and fanon contamination) ? To the tune of 'Once in Love with Amy' Hear the original at http://www.rienzihills.com/SI NG/O/onceinlovewithamy.htm dedicated to CMC ENTER SNAPE and LUPIN, tapdancing in top hats and tails ALL: Once in love with Lily, always in love with Lily Ever and ever, like a glowing ember, we will all remember the flame SNAPE: Once you're dissed by Lily, there's no resist-ing Lily Ply her with potions, poetry, devotions, she's in your affections to stay That's why I hate that little Harry Potter, he's got her green eyes I tried to save poor Lily from the slaughter, but she got fried. But once in love with Lily, always in love with Lily Willy or nilly, she's my favorite filly, trouble is the answer will be That Lily is as dead as she can be. ALL: Once in love with Lily, always in love with Lily Ever and ever, like a glowing ember, we will all remember the flame. LUPIN: Once in love with Lily, she was there for me, my Lily Werewolf or human, still my love was bloomin, when the moon was full or on wane No more was I a fickle-hearted lone wolf, my own wolf to stay If Lily only loved me like a brother, still that's okay [sobs] [From beyond a certain veil, the voice of James joins in] ALL: Once in love with Lily, always in love with Lily Ever and ever, like a glowing ember, we will all remember the flame JAMES: Once you're dissed by Lily, there's no resist-ing Lily Scribbled her initial, then made it official, Padfoot was the best man that day Once I was but a moonlit midnight rover, a bully, a berk Lily made me stop and think it over, now I'm no jerk But once in love with Lily, always in love with Lily Ever and ever, we will be together, sorry guys the answer will be That Lily'd rather stay in love with me. From julierice8 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 17:12:13 2005 From: julierice8 at yahoo.com (Julie Rice) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SS/PS Passing through the guarding spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050525171214.98234.qmail@web50503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129467 Linda: > Okay, in SS/PS when HRH go through the trap door and > face all the tests, the only ones that show signs of already being passed are > Fluffy (sleeping/harp) and the flying keys (crumpled > feathers). I > don't see the Devil's Snare being too much of a > problem, if you get > up right away. But what about the chessboard? Did > Quirrel have to > play his way across it too? And then did it clean > itself up to be > ready for HRH? In SS (283) it states that "there was a huddle of limp black players slumped along the wall." Nothing is said about them breaking, as shown in the movie. They are simply dragged off. So, I assume at the end they did clean themselves up for another round. Linda: > And then how about the potions. The one Harry > finally drank from > was so small only one person could drink from it. I > don't think is > looked as if someone else had already taken a drink > because then it would have been obvious which one was the right one. So, how was Quirrel able to pass? Hermione "took a long drink" from her bottle. Harry "drained the little bottle in one gulp." There was obviously less potion in Harry's bottle. However, even if they had noticed it, I don't think they would have wanted to bet on that being the case. The bottles were all different sizes and shapes. No telling if only a little was put in there to make it seem like that was the right bottle. They still had to logic it out. Linda: I think the stone was being > hidden from > everyone, not just students, so I would assume older > wizards > wouldn't be able to just walk through some of the > tests without > having to do them. I agree. Don't forget that there was a troll that Hermione and Harry didn't have to fight since it was already unconscious from Quirrel. Quirrel had a way with trolls. Everyone had to pass the tests. Although I do think that Dumbledore had a way to get there quicker than most. Can you see him on a broomstick? Julie __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Wed May 25 17:43:49 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 10:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Teaching Neville & Blood Prejudice(was:Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting...) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050525174349.83628.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129468 > By telling Neville exactly what to do, Hermione prevents Neville > from learning on his own, reinforces Neville's belief that he can't > do potions and gets in the way of Snape's efforts to get through to > a troubled student. Hermione was trying to be nice, but she acted > as an enabler and in the end did Neville no favors. > > Betsy Yup. Which is why I see Snape's side of things, even though I completely disagree with the way he treats Neville. If Hermoine really wanted to help Neville, she'd talk to him after class or help with his homework or try to talk up his confidence before class. Instead she gets him over the immediate hump and then walks away, leaving him no better off. And Snape - who's figured that if saving his pet isn't enough motivation for Neville to get it right, nothing is - watches as his effort fizzles because Hermione "helped" again. Notice, though, that Snape doesn't remove Hermione from Neville's vicinity; he could easily break up the class and pair people from different houses if he wanted. Would Neville learn more partnering with Draco or Pansy Parkinson? *shudders to think* Perhaps keeping Hermione and Neville close to each other is Snape's Plan B. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From lhuntley at fandm.edu Wed May 25 17:45:29 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 13:45:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10b4f608a48b95876536a7b8103466bf@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 129469 Evil Sushi: > I have to say that I think it is the nuturing side of women rather > that the vindicative, repressed side of women that, like any 'bad- > boy' Snape appeals to. I don't think this answers the question of *why* a woman might feel the need to "nuture" someone "bad". I think Porphyria's argument was that it is a psychological reaction to their own "cast-off animus" (to use Jungian-speak). Interestingly, I think, the Bad-Boy phenomenon that you are speaking of is relatively relegated to literature -- most women who are attracted to Snape would have little interest in a similar RL man. > I suppose that everyone has their own > theories about Snape's past- quite blatantly bullying, which can be > bad enough without anything additional. Many have argued that the uncertainty about Snape's past/motivations/feelings/etc. is *precisely* what makes him so appealing as a character. That is, he appears complex, but the reader is allowed to fill in the details according to his or her own desires. The fact Snape fans have such trouble agreeing over *what* it is, exactly, that attracts them to him is probably a function of this. > I think that the appeal of > Snape to women can be a) that they want to mother him and look after > him. > OR b) they want to be his lover because they feel that Snape's > feelings are repressed, and love could overcome that and Snape > would be the more positive person which he is deep down. OR, c) Lusting after him is a way of indulging in their darker tendencies -- a "walk on the wild side," if you will. OR, d) As Tonks_op explained, they see him as a powerful figure and take pleasure in the idea of "conquering" him with love. Honestly, I think all of these options need a YMMV sticker attached to them -- some women may tend toward one of these reason more than the others, while others may have different reasons altogether. I would point out, however, that a) and b) don't satisfactorily explain why some women find Snape *sexy*. > Psychologically, I would say that women want to 'save' Snape, from > their interpretation of his personality. See, you're actually dealing with two different, but closely related, concepts here. One is the Bad-Boy phenomenon, which I've addressed above, but the other is what we here at HPfGU affectionately term Hurt-Comfort (Or, How Women Are Really Bent). It used to be a very big topic back in the day. You may want to try searching the archives for "hurt-comfort" or "hurt/comfort", although I'm not sure that you'll have any success (Yahoomort's search feature is incredibly bad). Oh, let me see . . . Okay, Elkins touches on Hurt-Comfort in the later portion of "Draco Malfoy Is Ever So Lame. Yet Sympathetic. And Dead, Too." (you can find it at: http://www.theennead.com/elkins/hp/archives/000109.html). She merely uses the concept as support for her Draco analysis, but she summarizes it quite well: *** Finally, the text often seems to me to actively encourage the reader?or at the very least its adolescent female readership?to not only sympathize with Draco but also to find him slightly erotically appealing, by the mere virtue of showing him getting physically hurt so very often. Oh, come on now! Don't look at me like that. You all know what I'm saying here. It's the old "Hurt-Comfort" phenomenon, is what this is, and we all know about it, even if we like to pretend that we don't. What "Hurt-Comfort" comes down to is the fact that women are just plain Bent, and adolescent girls even more so. They like to see male characters suffer, so long as they do so with some degree of manly dignity, because it turns them on. Male vulnerability garners their sympathy, and it also kind of excites them. They like it. No one ever wants to 'fess up to this, but it's true. Just look at the characters most often fixated upon as drool-worthy by JKR's adult female readers, will you? Lupin. Sirius. Snape. *** Would you say you agree with this argument? Do you think that's all there is to Snape-lusting? > And, as women are (mostly) > good at all things intuitive, I wouldn't doubt their interpretations. > > > Just a thought~ Evil sushi Eh. You realize that's all just propaganda, right? ^_~ By the by, *EVIL* sushi? What is evil sushi? Like, sushi that attacks you with its little octopus bits and . . . oh, I don't know . . . suctions off your taste buds? 'Cause *that* would be pretty evil of it, IMO. Laura (who doesn't much care for sushi, anyway.) From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Wed May 25 18:23:19 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:23:19 -0000 Subject: FILK: Stuck here in Azkaban Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129470 Lucius, languishing in his cell in Azkaban sings a paean to his master, to the tune of "When you are old and grey" by Tom Lehrer. O I still appreciate him The Dark Lord - I'm his man, I've more sense than to hate him Stuck here in Azkaban, He'll be here any minute now I'll be out of here like *that*, The Dementors deserted, The new guards disconcerted, He'll AK them in seconds flat. His quirks anatomical Up close are not comical, >From toenail to follicle He is quite diabolical; A mess psychological Almost mythological, Don't think me ironical His evil's canonical; His flaws astronomical Are all pathological, Please don't call me cynical His problems are clinical; Of his sins a long chronicle (some aren't chronological,) But I'll be economical For I grow hyperbolical. He'll be here soon with Bella The escape at last succeeds, We'll be out of here together And back to our misdeeds, I'd do anything for him at all O rescue me my Lord! Pity my struggles, Here I can't torture Muggles, I'm really getting bored. Dungrollin (Annoying thought: If Voldy's bald, does that mean he doesn't have any follicles?) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed May 25 18:24:59 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:24:59 -0000 Subject: Teaching Neville & Blood Prejudice(was:Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting...) In-Reply-To: <20050525174349.83628.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > By telling Neville exactly what to do, Hermione prevents Neville > > from learning on his own, reinforces Neville's belief that he can't > > do potions and gets in the way of Snape's efforts to get through to > > a troubled student. Hermione was trying to be nice, but she acted > > as an enabler and in the end did Neville no favors. > > > > Betsy > > > Yup. Which is why I see Snape's side of things, even though I > completely disagree with the way he treats Neville. > > If Hermoine really wanted to help Neville, she'd talk to him after > class or help with his homework or try to talk up his confidence > before class. Instead she gets him over the immediate hump and then > walks away, leaving him no better off. > > And Snape - who's figured that if saving his pet isn't enough > motivation for Neville to get it right, nothing is - watches as his > effort fizzles because Hermione "helped" again. > > Notice, though, that Snape doesn't remove Hermione from Neville's > vicinity; he could easily break up the class and pair people from > different houses if he wanted. Would Neville learn more partnering > with Draco or Pansy Parkinson? *shudders to think* > > Perhaps keeping Hermione and Neville close to each other is Snape's > Plan B. > > Magda > Hickengruendler: I have one major problem with this reasoning. Snape actually never discovered that Hermione helped Neville. He suspected it (correctly, of course), because Neville's potion was correct. Therefore the reason the students were punished was that Neville's potion was correct, and Snape obviously did not expect this. This suggests strongly, IMO, that he wanted Neville to fail and therefore he also didn't care if some major harm would have happened to Trevor. (Well, he didn't care anyway). If it were his aim to help Neville, than he should have been happy that his plan was working and that Neville showed some success. But this wasn't the case. Hickengruendler From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed May 25 18:24:55 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:24:55 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Apparating Lessons References: Message-ID: <00bc01c56157$0e4418c0$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 129472 TONKS asked: > If they are going to study Apparating and you can't Apparate in or out > of Hogwarts can they study it there or do they have to go somewhere > else? Will they be just Apparating from one side of the room to > another? Is there some sort of a shield on Hogwarts that it is just the > *into* or *out of* that can't be done? ???? > Fridwulfa answers; Well, sorry to be such a spoilsport, but I don't think they'll study Apparating. 1st: Percy and the twins didn't get their licenses till they were 17, HRH are 16 in the 6th book. Ginny: "Why can't Apparate, too?" Mr. Weasley: "Because you're not of age..." GoF. pg 77.Ukpaperback edition. 2nd. and this is just a theory, I don't think you can study apparating in Hogwards, you have to take a test, probably set by someone from the Department of Magical Transportation, and maybe you have to follow some training before that, but always under the Ministry supervision. We are told in GoF that apparating can be really difficult and most wizards don't even try. "There are plenty of adult wizards who don't bother with it. Prefer brooms -slower but safer.". Gof. Pg78. paperback.Uk. So I don't think it's something you study at school. ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed May 25 18:26:41 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:26:41 -0000 Subject: HBP contest update -- Betting rumor still fair game (no spoiler) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129473 Recently, some bets were placed from the town where the UK Edition of HBP is being printed that a certain character will die in HBP. (Go to Mugglenet.com for more spoily info.) Because this is only a rumor and was not released by JKR or a publisher, this info is treated as a rumor and any similar contest answer is still fair game. Use rumors at your own risk. Before OotP, the rumors were thick, fast, furious, and wrong. TK -- TigerPatronus From editor at texas.net Wed May 25 18:47:05 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:47:05 -0000 Subject: Almost anyone else is a better authority--was Rampant Ingratitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129474 Amiable Dorsai: > > Well, I don't know who would be a better authority than the person it > was actually happening to. I have heard this argued as the Definitive And Discussion-Ending Answer several times before, I *know* I have answered before, too, but I can't remember which thread. Basically, I totally disagree. Harry is a *terrible* judge of what's going on, precisely because he cannot be an objective observer. In fact, his subjectivity is what makes him unable to accept the objectivity of others?whether he trusts them (Dumbledore, Hermione, etc.) or not (Snape). No one who is under stress or pressure, or any sort of influence, is a good judge of themselves. To support this, I went back and found a post I had originally made, in response to an assertion that the Occlumency lessons went downhill from the first. It summarizes canon points dealing with Occlumency and Harry's resistance to it, with some interpretation interleaved and following. It was originally compiled to show the lessons were, in fact, as effective as Harry let them be?but it also shows how Harry quite likely was not 100% in control of his own thoughts. Which makes him an even worse person to judge?not only unable to be objective, but being controlled. Here you go. --repost--- Date: Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:25 pm Subject: Imperius Resistance and Occlumency was Harry's anger (was Re: Draco's anger.) In the very first lesson, Harry himself shows he understands the stakes: [Snape speaking of Voldemort]: " '..he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return --' " 'And he might try and make me do things?' asked Harry. 'Sir?' he added hurriedly. 'He might,' said Snape.... [OoP, p. 533] Immediately following this, the incident where the Death Eaters escaped and Voldemort was happy occurred, and Harry apparently decided that the Occlumency had weakened him. [542] Harry comes to feel he's getting worse with every lesson [553]. He finds himself dreaming about the corridor almost every night [554]. However, what he says about this shows his focus is not on improving in Occlumency, but in solving the corridor puzzle: " 'I'm getting bored walking down that corridor every night....I just wish the door would open, I'm sick of simply staring at it...' " [554]. So instead of fighting the dreams, he's still a willing participant. And I'm also willing to bet that the first foray into Occlumency, when Harry did resist Snape to a degree, did strengthen Harry's mind a bit, and so Voldemort (now aware of Harry) upped the intensity of what he was showing Harry to overcome this. And it works; Harry focuses on the dreams and not resistance. The next mention, we see just how much Harry is not applying himself: "After a few minutes, however, he remembered that he was supposed to be emptying his mind of all emotion before he slept, as Snape kept reminding him at the end of every Occlumency lesson. He tried for a moment or two, but the thought of Snape on top of memories of Umbridge merely increased his sense of grumbling resentment, and he found himself focusing instead on how much he loathed the pair of them."... [there is another dream of the corridor] "..Harry awoke abruptly with his right hand stretched in front of him in th edarkness, to open a door that was hundreds of miles away. He let it fall with a feeling of mingled disappointment and guilt. He knew he should not have seen the door, but at the same time, felt so consumed with curiosity about what was behind it that he could nto help feeling annoyed with Ron...If he could have saved his snore for just another minute..."[577] So here, Harry seems to have completely succumbed, to the extent that he has evidently forgotten that Voldemort is aware of him and very likely in control of these dreams now. He still behaves and reacts as if he's an unknown observer. And he devotes "a moment or two" to Occlumency and then allows himself to fall asleep in an emotional state. Then comes the scene where Harry is "in" Voldemort for the conversation with Rookwood. [584-586]I can't see that it would have helped Voldemort's purposes, so I postulate that Harry did see this one by accident--but he left on such a violent note (after seeing "his" reflection) that I think Voldemort has just been forcibly reminded of the connection. He rejects Ron's solution to talk to someone (Ron does not specify a name): " 'I haven't got to tell anyone,' said Harry shortly. 'I wouldn't have seen it at all if I could do Occlumency. I'm supposed to have learned to shut this stuff out. That's what they want.' "By 'they' he meant Dumbledore." [587] But here, Harry is using the existence of the Occlumency lessons to give himself an excuse not to talk to Dumbledore. He does *not* apply himself any harder. He didn't mean what he was saying, because when Hermione says the very same thing, he reacts very angrily: "Then, quite abruptly, she said, 'But you shouldn't have seen this at all, Harry.' " 'What?' he said, taken aback. " 'You're supposed to be learning how to close your mind to this sort of thing,' said Hermione, suddenly stern. " 'I know I am,' said Harry. 'But--' " 'Well, I think we should just try and forget what you saw,' said Hermione firmly. 'And you ought to put in a bit more effort on your Occlumency from now on.' "Harry was so angry with her that he did not talk to her for the rest of the day." [589] When Snape discovers the memory of the conversation with Rookwood, he is quite angry as well. Harry *lies* to Snape about the number of dreams he has had. [590-591] I feel Snape pegs him accurately--Harry does want them to continue, because he feels they are a valuable channel into Voldemort's doings. Possibly because, like Sirius, he wants to be involved; possibly because he does not want to lose his "specialness" after a summer of being totally ignored. Canon does not tell us this. But Harry still seems to have forgotten that as of just before Christmas, Voldemort is in the driver's seat, and neither Snape (who knows) or Hermione (who probably figured it out) have explicitly reminded Harry of this. I do believe if Harry realized he was being controlled all this time, he would have mastered Occlumency quite rapidly indeed; but Harry is not the master of his own mind anymore. Voldemort's manipulations have been almost constant. After Harry sees Snape's memories, Harry anticipates a reaction from Snape very much in line with the context Eggplant seems to apply: as a personal milestone in a personal struggle. Snape's reaction, however, is not personal in the slightest. He recovers and continues; this was a risk he accepted when he took on the job. [591-592] This is borne out by Snape's anger following the next casting of Legilimens, when Harry gets to the corridor. He is angrier then, than a few minutes before when Harry saw his own memories: "For some reason, Snape seemed even angrier than he had done two minutes before, when Harry had seen into his own memories." [593] Harry just doesn't get it. Harry continues to have a limited vision of this as an issue just between them. But Snape is about the business at hand, not some one-on-one power struggle. He also may be angry because Voldemort was making himself aware of Harry's mind mere minutes after Snape has said to Harry that he, Snape, was responsible for spying on the Dark Lord. Harry, because he has failed to apply himself adequately, may just have put both the spy effort and Snape himself at risk. I'd be angry myself, in Snape's position. Shortly after this, the D.A. is discovered and Dumbledore is no longer available to Harry as a resource, even if Harry *were* willing to let go his childish resentment and approach him. In Harry's next dream, we finally see a faint sign of resistance: "There was something in this room he wanted very, very much... "Something he wanted ... or somebody else wanted... "His scar was hurting... "BANG! Harry awoke instantly, confused and angry." [635] This is the first instance in any of these dreams of Harry realizing on any level that he was not the sole dreamer of the dream. Something *somebody else wanted.* And his scar hurts, and when he wakes on this very thought, he wakes confused and angry. Not disappointed and guilty. He was, finally, on some level of his mind, fighting back. And it's *hard.* Alas, he doesn't seem to have realized what happened, or he might have been encouraged in his Occlumency. And he falls almost immediately back into the feelings Voldemort has prepared for him: "He lay quite still and silent while the pain in his scar subsided and disappointment washed over him. He felt as though a wonderful treat had been snatched from him at the very last moment...He had got so close that time..." ... "His stomach gave a sickening jolt as he remembered that he had Occlumency the following evening..." [636] I have wondered if his "sickening jolt" was a little gift from Voldemort, who I have no doubt was aware of the efforts to strengthen Harry's resistance, and was resisting them by manipulatng Harry's feelings. Because Harry so easily could have interpreted his realization that "someone else" wanted what was in the Department of Mysteries as a positive milestone in his Occlumency. Then, in the final Occlumency lesson, Harry again *lies* to Snape about how much he's been working. [638] Why does he try to hide this? No wonder Snape is irritated with him; Snape has done many things to Harry, but nowhere in canon has he *ever* lied to him. In my interpretation of Snape, lying to a student would be beneath his dignity and offend his subtlety. So Harry lying to him must seem an insult on top of the frustration he feels that Harry is not working. Snape, as Eggplant has so often pointed out, does nothing to remove the Pensieve before he leaves the office on this occasion. I, though, don't feel he should have needed to. He is on the same side as Harry. He is extending a certain amount of trust to Harry, as he has to Sirius, at Dumbledore's request. This was an emergency; he was needed to attend a student of his House. And he had swept from the room once before without a backward glance to make sure Harry followed, and without emptying or securing the Pensieve, the night that Umbridge tried to throw Trelawney out. No, this was a reasonable expectation on Snape's part, and it was a failing of Harry's that he betrayed both Snape's and Dumbledore's trust by invading Snape's memories. The same curiosity that Voldemort is using to keep Harry on the hook in his dreams, makes Harry stick his face into Snape's memories. Ah, creepy thought--I hope Voldemort wasn't behind *that* curiosity as well, or Snape surely is toast. Then Harry lies to his best friends, about why the lessons stopped. He continues having dreams, and we see again that the Occlumency may have had an effect, although too late now for the lessons to have taken advantage of: "...It had probably been then that he had spoken aloud...*Just a bit farther*...for he could feel his conscious self struggling to wake..and before he had reached the end of the row, he had found himself lying in bed again, gazing up at the canopy of his four- poster." [682] His conscious mind is now trying to bring him out of the dream. He *is* fighting the infiltration. But now he is doing it alone and unguided, and is indeed easy prey for Voldemort, for later in the passage we read " 'You are *trying* to block your mind, aren't you?' said Hermione, looking beadily at Harry. 'You are keeping going with your Occlumency?' " 'Of course I am,' said Harry, trying to sound as though this quesion was insulting, but not quite meeting her eye. The truth was that he was so intensely curious about what was hidden in that room full of dusty orbs that he was quite keen for the dreams to continue." [682] and later "He also suspected that part of his mind--the part that often spoke in Hermione's voice--now felt guilty on the occasions it strayed down the corridor ending in the black door, and sought to wake him before he could reach journey's end." [682] So the result of his Occlumency was a very slow-to-grow (likely as the result of Voldemort pushing back) ability to resist, but because he did not fully communicate with Snape and had decided very early on that the lessons were weakening him, he did not recognize it as such. By the time he becomes aware that a part of him is resisting the dreams, he is *resenting* that part of him, so enmeshed by Voldemort has he become. The Occlumency had been strengthening his mind, albeit very slowly, but Voldemort has been manipulating his heart. And Harry follows his heart. So by this point, his mind and his heart are in conflict in the dreams. And Harry "sides" with his heart. So he is well-prepared ground for the vision of Sirius, which is the next dream-vision that occurs [727-728] And his reaction to it is entirely emotional, to the point of emotionally rejecting Hermione's logic [731-737], and we know what happened after that. My point here, is that Eggplant's statement "Things went downhill from the very first lesson" is only correct in terms of Snape/Harry interpersonal relations. I think it is demonstrable from canon that the Occlumency lessons *were* producing results. But they were doing so very very slowly, possibly because Voldemort was resisting by manipulating Harry's emotions. Added to this, Harry has never been very good at acquiring skills gradually--the things he is good at, he is immediately good at (and I include the Patronus charm, for he mastered it very quickly, both we and Harry are told). Probably Harry had no chance all along, if Voldemort was blocking his desire to learn Occlumency. But I disagree strongly that the lessons were of no good, or "went downhill" from the first one. ~Amanda From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed May 25 18:54:32 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:54:32 -0000 Subject: The Harry Potter Books & Jungian Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marilyn Peake" wrote: > > I recently reread Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone, Marilyn Hi Marilyn, Just FYI, there's a fantastic newsgroup where you might find additional scintillating conversation about the symbolism of HP called HP for seekers. I enjoy it a lot. I also posted on Jungian flower symbolism in the books quite a while ago. TK -- TigerPatronus From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed May 25 19:11:24 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:11:24 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > > Pippin (about Harry's experience with Occlumency and Snape's dereliction): > No harm in that if they weren't *working* --you > can't have it both ways. And as Harry has learned so little about > occlumency, he's hardly an authority. OK, the person having the experience knew nothing about it. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, here. > > Amiable Dorsai: > > Yep. In this case his action was implying to a student in his charge > that it was OK to break the law for trivial purposes. > > Pippin: > I think you've missed my point. Learning the truth about Harry's > midnight rambling and suspected pilfering was not trivial under > the circumstances. There was a Death Eater loose and Harry was > obstructing a criminal investigation, not to mention putting > himself in danger. Erm, what criminal investigation? And nobody knew about the Death Eater, least of all, Snape. > Pippin: > And Snape has been dead right -- about Quirrell and Lockhart, and > he was probably right about Lupin too. If it's okay for Harry, whose > brain is channeling Voldemort, to think for himself, why not Snape? Lupin? Amiable Dorsai From willsonkmom at msn.com Wed May 25 19:28:12 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:28:12 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129477 , "amiabledorsai" wrote: > Well, I don't know who would be a better authority than the person it > was actually happening to. > > And it is an established fact that Snape terminated the lessons. Potioncat: Well, here's another example, taking Harry out of the equation. Back in SS/PS during the Quidditch game, Harry's broom was being hexed. Hermione saw Snape staring at the broom, muttering hexes. She distracted him and the hexing stopped. And the trio continued to believe Snape was the one who hexed the broom until the Quirrell told Harry differently. There was lot's of good evidence to believe it was Snape then too. From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed May 25 19:47:23 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:47:23 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: <20050525172614.62424.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: .) > > And the child-centred North American model of education obviously > doesn't apply in the wizarding world; we should be wary about > assuming that our standards are applied around the world and that if > they're not, then the other society is wrong. > > Magda Well of course they're wrong, Magda! Chuckle. Do you really think those of use who believe in child-centered education are going to say "This system we fight hard for and believe in passionately is no better than any other?" That's just not human nature. Sorry, but a lot of us are never going to see Snape's methods as anything but obviously and terribly wrong, and the Wizarding World as being nothing but completely in the wrong for allowing him to treat students the way he does, especially Harry. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed May 25 19:53:46 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:53:46 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: <20050525135913.3463.qmail@web86207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129479 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin wrote: > > --- potioncat wrote: > > > I really don't know why Snape is allowed to treat > > students the way he > > does. > > Could it be because other Hogwarts teachers (and > Dumbledore) don't consider his treatment to be such a > crime against humanity as some of the posters here? > :-) > > McGonagall is certainly amused by Harry's horror of > "Potions?!" during his career consultation in OoTP. > Actually, I read this completely differently. I don't recall Harry reacting with horror -- in fact I don't believe he has any reaction at all. It is McGonagall who says "yes, Potter, potions," with a "flicker of a smile." I read this (especially in light of McGonagall viciously cutting Snape down to size at the end of OOTP) as, "Yes, yes , I know he's a complete idiot who doesn't like you or the rest of my house -- but what can you do with such an ass?" I have never understood the idea that McGonagall respects Snape (beyond the demands of her profession) or regards him with anything other than disdain. The idea that she would be friends with someone who abuses the members of her own house is utterly ludicrous. Lupinlore From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Wed May 25 19:57:38 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:57:38 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > Potioncat: > Well, here's another example, taking Harry out of the equation. Back in > SS/PS during the Quidditch game, Harry's broom was being hexed. > Hermione saw Snape staring at the broom, muttering hexes. She > distracted him and the hexing stopped. And the trio continued to > believe Snape was the one who hexed the broom until the Quirrell told > Harry differently. There was lot's of good evidence to believe it was > Snape then too. I guess I may have given the wrong impression: I don't believe that Snape is a supporter of Voldemort. I simply think that he has been derelict in his duty as a teacher in general and as Harry's Occlumency coach in particular, and that the first failure contributed directly to the second. Amiable Dorsai From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed May 25 20:09:46 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:09:46 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: <00bc01c56157$0e4418c0$8000a8c0@casa> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > > Fridwulfa answers; > Well, sorry to be such a spoilsport, but I don't think they'll study > Apparating. > > 1st: Percy and the twins didn't get their licenses till they were > 17, HRH are 16 in the 6th book. ...edited... > > > 2nd. and this is just a theory, I don't think you can study > apparating in Hogwards, you have to take a test...set by ... > Department of Magical Transportation, and maybe you have to ... > train... ... under the Ministry supervision. .... > ...difficult and dangerous.... So I don't think it's something you > study at school. > > Fridwulfa bboyminn: Sorry if I'm repeating myself to the point of becoming obnoxious, but I am, obviously, firmly entrenched in my views. (Sorry about that) On point one, I remind you that ALL magic is restricted until you are 'of age'. You must be 17 ('of age') to perform any of the spells and charms they learn at Hogwarts. Yet in the controlled environment of school, under the supervision of the teachers, and with proper training, student are allowed to learn and use magic that is generally forbidden because of their age. Again, why would difficult and dangerous magic like Apparation, not be taught at school? Perhaps a special teacher will come from the Ministry to do the actual teaching, but none the less, I honestly feel it will happen at school, although outside the school grounds. On point two, all magic they learn at Hogwarts is tested and certified by the Ministry in the form of OWL and NEWT tests. While Apparation is not quite the same, I don't see the difference as being great enough to excude it from being taught during the school year. All indications are that Apparation is a complex magical task, not something learn by a few quick lessons and a little practice. So, if it is a complex magical task that require much theoretical study and complex calculations (or at least complex considerations), as well as controlled supervised gradated practical experience; in other words, lots of time, what better place to learn it than at school. I really don't think Apparation is learned with a few quick easy lessons, and since the students spend all their time at school, school is the only time and place they really have available to learn it. I readily admit that my opinion is colored by a very strong desire to have this happen at school so we can observe the lessons and learn the inner workings of Apparation. Time will tell. Steve/bboyminn From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Wed May 25 20:12:31 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:12:31 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129482 Hello All -- Here's a repost of the rules and questions for anyone else who wants to join in the divination fun. Rules: Copy these questions and email your answers *both* to the newsgroup and to *tigerpatronus* *at* *yahoo* *dot* *com.* Any details released by JKR or subsidiaries are worth no credit *after* they are released. Example: if you predict that "A chapter will be entitled `Draco's Detour,'" it will be worth 0 points. However, if you make a prediction *and email your prediction to the list and to TigerPatronus* and *then* the detail is released, you will get full credit. If you are JKR, work at the publishing company, or have somehow else have already read the book, don't enter. We will find out, hunt you down, and give you a virtual thermonuclear wedgie. Specificity will be rewarded. Brevity is . . . wit. All decisions of the judges (TigerPatronus and her minions) are arbitrary, ruthless, and final. (Minion recruitment will be based on number of entries received.) Prizes: Grand Prize (1): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Your Brilliance," "Leader of the Intelligentsia," "The HP-est," or a title of your own choosing. A filk will be composed in your honor. A year's worth of free butterbeer. Honorable Mentions (10): Bragging rights until Book 7 is released. All HPfGU members must address you as "Pretty Smartie," "A Member of the Intelligentsia," "Quite HP-ish," or a subordinate title of your own choosing. A free case of butterbeer. Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. TK - TigerPatronus! From tonisan9 at hotmail.com Wed May 25 20:13:16 2005 From: tonisan9 at hotmail.com (tonihollifield) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:13:16 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: <00bc01c56157$0e4418c0$8000a8c0@casa> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129483 > Fridwulfa stated: > Well, sorry to be such a spoilsport, but I don't think they'll > study Apparating. > > 1st: Percy and the twins didn't get their licenses till they were > 17, HRH are 16 in the 6th book. Toni now: JKR has said the following: "When Hermione arrived at Hogwarts, was she nearly eleven or nearly twelve? [also asked by vast numbers of people] She was nearly twelve; you must be at least eleven to attend Hogwarts." **Quote taken from JKR's website.** ****** If Hermione was nearly 12 at the start of Year 1, then she'd be nearly 17 at the start of Year 6. That would mean that after her September birthday, she'd be of age, and could learn to apparate. Ron would turn 17 in March of Year 6. Harry is the only one of the trio that wouldn't be able to learn during Year 6. I do agree with those who have said that you can't learn to apparate within the Hogwart's grounds, but I agree with Fridwulfa that apparation probably has to be learned at the ministry. Fred and George turned 17 in April of Harry's 4th Year, but didn't take their apparation test until the summer between GOF and OOTP. If they had been going into Hogsmeade to take "Student Apparating" classes, it probably would have been mentioned. Just my thoughts... Toni :-) From foxmoth at qnet.com Wed May 25 20:47:20 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:47:20 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129484 > > Pippin: > > I think you've missed my point. Learning the truth about Harry's > > midnight rambling and suspected pilfering was not trivial under > > the circumstances. There was a Death Eater loose and Harry was > > obstructing a criminal investigation, not to mention putting > > himself in danger. > > Erm, what criminal investigation? And nobody knew about the Death > Eater, least of all, Snape. Everyone knew that someone at Hogwarts had it in for Harry, and that Dumbledore was trying to find out who it was. The missing boomslang skin pointed to the use of polyjuice potion--naturally Dumbledore and Snape would want to know whether the burglary of Snape's office was related to the other goings on at Hogwarts that year. Harry's presence on the steps and the theft of the gillyweed, committed on Harry's behalf, confused the issue further. Harry would have been in serious trouble if he hadn't caught his foot in the trick step. If he'd surprised Crouch!Moody red-handed stealing boomslang skin from Snape's office, he probably would have died right then and there. Snape couldn't know that, but he did know it was dangerous for Harry to be wandering around the castle at night. Dumbledore and his allies needed to know whether Harry had in fact been the burglar, and they also needed to be sure that, if so, he didn't do it again. Snape's threat to use veritaserum was probably aimed at bringing the truth to the forefront of Harry's mind, where it could be detected by legilimency. But it wouldn't hurt for Harry to know that if he was stealing things from Snape's office, it would be regarded seriously. > > Pippin: > > And Snape has been dead right -- about Quirrell and Lockhart, and he was probably right about Lupin too. If it's okay for Harry, whose brain is channeling Voldemort, to think for himself, why not Snape? Amiable Dorsai: > Lupin? Pippin: Lupin admitted that he was being disloyal to Dumbledore all year, and in that way, Snape was right about him. He really should have told Dumbledore about Sirius and the Map, you know. Even if he believed Sirius was innocent (which he denies), by refusing to cooperate in Sirius's capture he left the whole school and the village of Hogsmeade at the mercy of the dementors. Pippin From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed May 25 20:55:55 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 20:55:55 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch III Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129486 Hi Guys! Time for another episode of Uncle Lupinlore's HP Conventional Wisdom Watch. Once again, I will use "Rising," "Falling," and "Mixed" in place of nifty little arrows. As always, this CW is gleaned from a variety of websites, with HPfGU being primary but not the only source. Also as always, corrections, additions, quibbles, arguments, and rotten tomatoes (although my dog would prefer rib-eye steaks, please) are welcome. HARRY POTTER -- Falling. Speculation as to the trials he may face in HBP is beginning to reach a fever point. The idea that he may lose yet ANOTHER parental figure (see below) is becoming common. Whether you see this as traditional plotting, good writing, or just plain manipulative overkill on JKR's part, a lot of gloom is attaching to this possibility. Also the idea that Harry will easily come to "master his own feelings," is increasingly challenged by those who think it won't be that quick and simple. And some think that JKR's mention of the fact that "some won't like" HBP might be an indication that Angsty!Harry, despised by so many in OOTP, will be around for quite a while yet. ALBUS DUMBLEDORE -- Falling. The betting situation in the UK has highlighted a trend toward the belief that he will not survive Book VI. He also continues to be controversial in other ways. Although the whole Dursley situation has not been a *hot* topic of late, much recent speculation has focused on his culpability in Snape's treatment of Harry, and the bizarre way he has of misjudging people. SEVERUS SNAPE -- Rising. Many people find him sexy, after all. And, like him or hate him, everyone anticipates he will play a major role in Book VI -- so much so that if some clear answers about him don't start to finally emerge I wouldn't recommend that JKR get stuck in any snow drifts. RON WEASLEY -- Rising. He hasn't figured large in conversation of late, but he does seem destined to be a big figure in the final two books. HERMIONE GRANGER -- Falling. SPEW, tactlessness, pushiness in class, and general arrogance have all be ascribed to the poor girl lately. It would be interesting to hear what JKR thinks of all this. NEVILLE LONGBOTTOM -- Mixed. Most expect him to flower in HBP. But JKR seems to be saying he just ain't all that important from the prophecy standpoint, and that even Dumbledore has the attitude "Nice kid, but of course he isn't close to being in the same league with Harry, that goes without saying." LUNA LOVEGOOD -- Rising. Interest in a Harry/Luna romance (some claim it's predicted by an alchemical joining of a Sun person and Moon person) is beginning to increase once again. DRACO MALFOY -- Falling. The ranks of those who expect his redemption have grown thin indeed, and you don't even hear many people these days saying he will avoid Voldy's web out of cowardice or cleverness or self-preservation. With a Dark Mark seeming to loom in his future, speculation has mainly shifted to whether he will finally show some competence, and to whether he will survive the series. GINNY WEASLEY -- Rising. She still seems odds on favorite for Harry's Twue Lub, and for Gryffindor chaser (sounds like a drink, don't it?). PERCY WEASLEY -- Falling. No one can see a way around some degree of humiliation of the middle Weasley boy. Speculation that he may outright flee to the DEs, once rare, is now becoming increasingly common. MOLLY AND ARTHUR WEASLEY -- Falling. From criticism of their parenting to speculation of their death(s), the Weasleys can't seem to catch a break. BILL WEASLEY -- Rising. Some mark him as a groom-to-be. Others as the next DADA teacher. REMUS LUPIN -- Mixed. Criticism of Remus seems to have abated for the moment, although the prominence of Albus and Harry on the covers released for HBP has disappointed those who wanted him to step up and take over part of Sirius' role. LUCIUS MALFOY -- Falling. Bye, bye, Big Daddy. There's even a version of the alchemical theory that says the Black King must soon drown in the waters of purification. An escape from Azkaban gone south? Or maybe Lucius is in for a romance with the Giant Squid. TONKS -- Rising. Most expect her to play a major role in the war against Voldy. MAD EYE MOODY -- Mixed. He still doesn't enjoy the popularity he once did, but he is growing in popularity as a candidate for DADA. KREACHER -- Falling. Consensus seems to be the best he can hope for is a quick exit and a place on the wall. SEAMUS AND DEAN -- Rising. Dean gets a rumor boost as a possibility for Half-Blood Prince, and many expect Seamus to grow in prominence in the DA. RUBEUS HAGRID -- Mixed. Interest in his being the HBP is beginning to revive, but he has overstayed his welcome with a lot of people. To wax alchemical again, some claim the "red" mentor will die in Book VII, just as the "black" and "white" mentors have done before. Of course, that's good news for Lupin fans (it's good to be a mentor/father-figure with a non-color name when your dealing with alchemical interpretations). FELIX FELICIS -- Rising. Most think he is a person, and peg him as the "lion man" and the new DADA teacher. THE DA -- Rising. Few people seriously expect it NOT to be a major feature in Book VI -- probably as an official club so that Albus can make nice by giving Harry a shiny badge of his very own (maybe one with emeralds to match his eyes -- that would be pretty). QUIDDITCH -- Rising. We know it will feature in Book VI, else why would JKR mention the Quidditch captain. Harry could be captain, using it as training/therapy. Ron could be captain, using it to play out a feud with Malfoy. Katie Bell could be captain, although what purpose that would serve nobody really knows. Still, it seems sure that the Pitch will be filled come July 16. ADVANCED POTIONS -- Rising. Most seem to think Harry will be in the class, although opinion is divided as to whether he scored an "O" or some other method will get him there. Lupinlore From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed May 25 21:04:11 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 21:04:11 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch III: Addendum Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129487 Whoops, how could I forget: MINERVA MCGONAGALL -- Rising. If Albus buys it, she's in for Headmistress. One wonders who she would favor for Head Boy? From alishak at spu.edu Wed May 25 21:00:50 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 21:00:50 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long) In-Reply-To: <20050518000347.24269.qmail@web32609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129488 Mira: > To add my own few knuts to the debate, I think > Hermione is far from being unsympathetic. During the > last three books she is always the one who explains to > Ron and even to Harry the reason behind how others > react. She is able not only to put herself in Cho's > position, and realise that she would probably allow > Harry much more space and his own approach to a > relationship and also try to understand him more, but > she is also able to identify correctly the reasons why > Cho is behaving in a different manner, asking for > protection and romance (because her previous boyfriend > has died and so on). I think she is as sympathetic as > she is intelligent, and the only instances when she > doesn't behave in a sympathetic way are in book 3, > when she was overworked and stressed. > Alisha: Although I agree with the idea that Hermione is learning empathy, I wanted to point out that empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. Sympathy is feeling along with another person. Empathy is feeling the same thing as the other person. If you broke your leg, I would be sympathetic to your pain, but I would not be in pain. This is what Hermione needs to work on. She is definitely sympathetic to the house elves' plight. She feels badly for them because they are enslaved. But she does not feel the same things that they feel. It's the difference between step 1 and step 3 in learning empathy. To give a little better example: If you were forced to live with your parents long after you came of age (always having to follow their rules and deal with all their strangeness), I would feel bad for you. That's sympathy. However if you really love your parents, love spending time with them and get along with them very well, you wouldn't see this as a bad thing. In order for me to be empathizing with you, I would need to see, not how I would feel in your place, but how you actually feel, in which case I wouldn't feel bad for you at all. I'd probably be happy for you. Hermione is very good at recognizing how she would feel in someone else's place, but she's not always very good at seeing how they feel in their own place. -Alisha Who's coming a little late to the conversation, but wanted to put in her thoughts. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed May 25 21:05:10 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 21:05:10 -0000 Subject: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: <20050525134632.23557.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > Someone from another unrelated list sent this to me. Has anyone here seen this? I didn't see it in recent posts but sorry if its been discussed. Don't click on the article unless you want to see a *possible* spoiler. > > theotokos > > Betting pattern on the next major character to die in HP, now points > to a leak from the publishers. bboyminn: I won't say who the character is, but let's face it, at one time or another, we have all predicted this particular characters death. Further it is a standard generic fair for this particular character to die in stories like this. So betting on him/her is the most uninspired unimaginative bet you could possibly make. So, now we must ask, is JKR a generic uninspired unimaginitive author? Or, is she inspired and imaginative enough to come up with some unique twist on such a tired old theme? I suspect what happened is some random bloke was having his coffee at the local coffee shop and said, I think 'so-and-so' is going to die, and the mere fact that this person was within 50 miles of the printing factory set off a stampede to the local betting shop. So, predicting the death of this particular character is nothing new, in fact, it is as old as the books themselves, and predicting the death of this /type/ of character is centuries old. Move along folks, nothing to see here. Steve/bboyminn From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed May 25 21:10:37 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:10:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparating Lessons References: Message-ID: <010c01c5616e$34c17e40$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 129490 Ok, you have a point, it's just that it struck me as odd that both Percy and the twins took their tests during the summer, even though they could have tried right after they turned 17 if they were learning in Hogwarts, but it seems they had to wait until the holidays, which made me think it was not something related to Hogwarts, that's all. I can't see them spending that much time learning to apparate in their final year, what with NEWTs, and all that, even if apparating wasn't a compulsory subject. If OWLs were bad, imagine what NEWTs must be. You're right, of course, when you say that all magic they learn at Hogwarts is tested and certified by the Ministry, but let's not forget that apparating is not something they'll particularly need for their future careers, it's not like charms, transfiguration, or, let's say, potions, that's why I have some troubles picturing these hypothetical apparating lessons. Anyway, even if apparating IS something you can study at Hogwarts, I don't think we'll see it in book 6, they have to be 17 to take the test, so my guess is it would be a subject for the 7th year. Cheers. Fridwulfa. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 10:09 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparating Lessons > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > >> >> Fridwulfa answers; >> Well, sorry to be such a spoilsport, but I don't think they'll study >> Apparating. >> >> 1st: Percy and the twins didn't get their licenses till they were >> 17, HRH are 16 in the 6th book. ...edited... >> >> >> 2nd. and this is just a theory, I don't think you can study >> apparating in Hogwards, you have to take a test...set by ... >> Department of Magical Transportation, and maybe you have to ... >> train... ... under the Ministry supervision. .... >> ...difficult and dangerous.... So I don't think it's something you >> study at school. >> >> Fridwulfa > > bboyminn: > > Sorry if I'm repeating myself to the point of becoming obnoxious, but > I am, obviously, firmly entrenched in my views. (Sorry about that) > > On point one, I remind you that ALL magic is restricted until you are > 'of age'. You must be 17 ('of age') to perform any of the spells and > charms they learn at Hogwarts. Yet in the controlled environment of > school, under the supervision of the teachers, and with proper > training, student are allowed to learn and use magic that is generally > forbidden because of their age. > > Again, why would difficult and dangerous magic like Apparation, not be > taught at school? Perhaps a special teacher will come from the > Ministry to do the actual teaching, but none the less, I honestly feel > it will happen at school, although outside the school grounds. > > On point two, all magic they learn at Hogwarts is tested and certified > by the Ministry in the form of OWL and NEWT tests. While Apparation is > not quite the same, I don't see the difference as being great enough > to excude it from being taught during the school year. > > All indications are that Apparation is a complex magical task, not > something learn by a few quick lessons and a little practice. So, if > it is a complex magical task that require much theoretical study and > complex calculations (or at least complex considerations), as well as > controlled supervised gradated practical experience; in other words, > lots of time, what better place to learn it than at school. > > I really don't think Apparation is learned with a few quick easy > lessons, and since the students spend all their time at school, school > is the only time and place they really have available to learn it. > > I readily admit that my opinion is colored by a very strong desire to > have this happen at school so we can observe the lessons and learn the > inner workings of Apparation. > > Time will tell. > > Steve/bboyminn > > > > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from > posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Wed May 25 21:16:47 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:16:47 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4294EB3F.6000809@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129491 lupinlore wrote: > The idea that she would be friends with someone > who abuses the members of her own house is utterly ludicrous. Well, excuse me, but my reading of that scene (and the books as a whole for that matter) is as valid is yours. If you can't accept that, then I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. Irene From yutu75es at yahoo.es Wed May 25 21:20:30 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:20:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Apparating Lessons References: Message-ID: <011b01c5616f$95941060$8000a8c0@casa> No: HPFGUIDX 129492 Toni said: > I do agree with those who have said that you can't learn to apparate > within the Hogwart's grounds, but I agree with Fridwulfa that > apparation probably has to be learned at the ministry. Fred and > George turned 17 in April of Harry's 4th Year, but didn't take > their apparation test until the summer between GOF and OOTP. Fridwulfa (again) And Percy turned 17 in August of Harry's 3rd year, that is to say, just before Harry started his third year, but didn't take his app. test until the summer between PoA and GoF. Cheers, Fridwulfa > > > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from > posts to which you're replying! > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, ms seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From bob.oliver at cox.net Wed May 25 22:03:26 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:03:26 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: <4294EB3F.6000809@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene wrote: > > > lupinlore wrote: > > > The idea that she would be friends with someone > > who abuses the members of her own house is utterly ludicrous. > > Well, excuse me, but my reading of that scene (and the books as a whole > for that matter) is as valid is yours. If you can't accept that, then I > don't see any point in continuing this discussion. > > Irene Okay, I'm going well over the three a day limit, but to smooth ruffled feathers: You're reading is perfectly valid. So is mine. They are also utterly and totally incompatible. We each think the other is dead wrong and it would be silly to pretend otherwise. To elaborate on the idea of McGonagall being friends with Snape, in my long considered opinion, if she is friends with him after he abuses the members of her own house her behavior is ludicrous and morally reprehensible. Now, if you think she is friends with him, that opinion is perfectly valid. It may well be that JKR will agree with you. Nevertheless, I find the idea of someone being friends with a man who abuses the children to whom she is "in loco parentis" to be ludicrous and reprehensible. Sorry, but I'm not going to suck my thumb on this one and pretend that I don't. Lupinlore From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 22:30:39 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:30:39 -0000 Subject: Teaching Neville & Blood Prejudice(was:Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129494 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich > wrote: >>Betsy: >By telling Neville exactly what to do, Hermione prevents Neville from learning on his own, reinforces Neville's belief that he can't do potions and gets in the way of Snape's efforts to get through to a troubled student. Hermione was trying to be nice, but she acted as an enabler and in the end did Neville no favors.< >>Magda: >Yup. Which is why I see Snape's side of things, even though I completely disagree with the way he treats Neville. >If Hermoine really wanted to help Neville, she'd talk to him after class or help with his homework or try to talk up his confidence before class. Instead she gets him over the immediate hump and then walks away, leaving him no better off. >And Snape - who's figured that if saving his pet isn't enough motivation for Neville to get it right, nothing is - watches as his effort fizzles because Hermione "helped" again.< >>Hickengruendler: >I have one major problem with this reasoning. Snape actually never discovered that Hermione helped Neville. He suspected it (correctly, of course), because Neville's potion was correct. Therefore the reason the students were punished was that Neville's potion was correct, and Snape obviously did not expect this. This suggests strongly, IMO, that he wanted Neville to fail and therefore he also didn't care if some major harm would have happened to Trevor. (Well, he didn't care anyway).< Betsy: Neville went from having a disasterious potion to a perfect potion. Snape, who was able to tell by color and consistency exactly where Neville went wrong in his brewing, knew that Neville could not have achieved perfection. The turn around was too sudden. But Neville could possibly have achieved a better potion. One that maybe took Trevor back a few froggy months or so. But if Snape was only interested in watching Neville fail, all he'd have had to do was step back and let Neville do his worst. Neville doesn't need any prompting to fail. What Snape was trying to do was to prompt Neville to do *better*, to try harder. And Hermione stepped on Neville's chance to try. As to the possibility of harm to Trevor, I somehow doubt Trevor would have died. He may have had a few uncomfortable moments, but I doubt Snape would actually *kill* a students pet. Snape is always threatening the students with dire consequences, but the worst he's ever done is given someone a detention. (And he's been one of the most active faculty member in saving students' lives throughout the books.) >>Hickengruendler: >If it were his aim to help Neville, than he should have been happy that his plan was working and that Neville showed some success. But this wasn't the case.< Betsy: What success? That wasn't Neville's potion, it was Hermione's. And Snape has been teaching too long to by fooled by such an obvious example of cheating. >>Magda: >Notice, though, that Snape doesn't remove Hermione from Neville's vicinity; he could easily break up the class and pair people from different houses if he wanted. Would Neville learn more partnering with Draco or Pansy Parkinson? *shudders to think* >Perhaps keeping Hermione and Neville close to each other is Snape's Plan B.< Betsy: I'd never thought about that before. I think you're right, Magda. I seriously doubt Neville would have learned better paired with Draco or Pansy. They would have tormented the poor boy to death (not to mention sabatoging his cauldron any chance they got). And though Hermione seriously interfered in Snape's efforts in PoA, she's one of the few students in his class talented enough to tend to her own potion *and* keep an eye on what Neville is up to. I wonder if Snape realized that Neville's fear of him is part of the problem (vividly illustrated by the boggart in PoA -- after the cheating incident). Perhaps he decided that rather than constantly pick apart Neville's potions, he'd allow Hermione to act as a sort of teacher's assistant. (Again, all this being decided *after* the cheating incident. I'm not letting Hermione completely off the hook here. ) From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed May 25 22:39:26 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:39:26 -0000 Subject: More Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: <010c01c5616e$34c17e40$8000a8c0@casa> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129495 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fridwulfa" wrote: > ... both > Percy and the twins took their tests during the summer, even though > they could have tried right after they turned 17 if they were > learning in Hogwarts, but it seems they had to wait until the > holidays, which made me think it was not something related to > Hogwarts, that's all. bboyminn: Well, of course, I am just making all this up, and I admit I have a very strong prejudice for things to go my way, but I am trying to reach a /logical/ conclusion. We can't really use Percy as an example because he waited a full year, until he was out of school, before he took is test. So, let's look at the Twins. Their movements, and the comings and goings of all students, seems to be restricted while they are at Hogwarts. There are only certain times that they are allowed to leave school, and those times are governed by definite parameters. So, Fred and George couldn't just wander off the minute they turned 17 and take their test. First, if Apparation is NOT taught at school, turning 17 is irrelevant because they haven't yet learned how to Apparate, which in turn means they are not ready to take the test. Yes, Fred and George may have dabbled a bit on their own, but I don't think with magic as dangerous and complex as Apparation, a little dabbling is going to be enough. Given all this, then they would have had to learn it after school during the summer holiday. Either way, whether they learn at school or during the summer holiday, summer holiday would be the first time they would have had to take the test. That explains why most characters take the test during the summer. Next, Harry sees Fred and George roughly mid-summer, which you should remember is only two months long, and given the level of annoyance their Apparating is causing, they must have been doing it for a while when they meet Harry. So, we could infer from that, that Fred and George took their test 2 to 3 weeks after the end of the school year. Does Apparation sound like something that can be learned in two or three weeks of quick study? Maybe, maybe not, my view it that it takes extensive study; though I certainly can't prove that...yet. So, it appears that regardless of when you turn 17, the first available opportunity to test is over the summer. Further, you likely need to set up an appointment to take the test, since is seems that the bulk of the requests for testing would occur during the summer. Getting an appointment time and date would logically create a delay which explains why Fred and George didn't test until somewhere between the second and forth week of summer. So, again, while students are at school, they are generally not allowed to leave. So if you turn 17 during the school year, your first available opportunity to take your Apparation test would still be during the next summer holiday. Now we must ask, is there enough time in the first few weeks of summer holiday to fully learn a complex task like Apparation? If not, then those students must have learned BEFORE summer holiday, which means, they learned during the school year. > Fridwulfa: > > I can't see them spending that much time learning to apparate in > their final year, what with NEWTs, and all that, even if apparating > wasn't a compulsory subject. ... > Anyway, even if apparating IS something you can study at Hogwarts, I > don't think we'll see it in book 6, they have to be 17 to take the > test, so my guess is it would be a subject for the 7th year. > > Cheers. > Fridwulfa. bboyminn: First, I'm not saying I'm right, only that I've been thinking about this for a long time and have a strong interest in it. I've tried my best to do an indepth analysis, and allow for every factor I can think of. Naturally, a lot of my conclusions are based on suppositions; I assume this, so I conclude that, but I try to be reasonable and logical about it. I could still be wrong, but I've tried hard to analyse it in a logical way, and consider all factors. However, you are more that free to disagree. The biggest spanner in the works (wrench among the gears) is that, so far, in the books, no one has really talked about Apparation lessons. Percy, Fred, and George all seem to think Apparation is a big deal, and are very excited and proud about getting their license; showing off right and left. Yet not one of them, or anyone else for that matter, has even talked about learning how to do it. Certainly they all learned somehow, but it's very strange that not one of them ever mentioned learning something that is such an obviously big deal. On this, the only conclusion I can reach is that the author simply left it out to keep from cluttering the book with details that didn't have anything to do with the immediate plot, or she was saving the details for a later book. I think the absents of lessons so far has more to do with external (author/publisher) factors than internal (story/plot) factors. In my scenario, they don't learn Apparation in their final year, they learn in 6th year. Further I completely agree that adding Apparation to the stress and strain of NEWT tests would be a burden. But, during 6th year, a majority of the students are going to turn 17. Only a small few like Harry will turn 17 over the following summer; the summer between 6th and 7th years. So, to me, it make sense to teach them during the year that they are turning 17, so they can take the test over the summer, and be ready to concentrate on NEWTs in their final year. I am saying that it make sense to start in 6th year so that they are all ready to test when they turn 17. Your idea of the strain of NEWTs 7th year just re-enforces my belief that it occurs in 6th year. As I pointed out before, the fact that the students are only age 16 doesn't matter because you have to be age 17 to freely perform any magic regardless of the type. However, an exeption for general magic is made for student in school where they can be properly taught and supervised. I see no reason to exclude difficult advanced magic like Apparation from the other advanced magic they will be learning. Perhaps, it will be part of Charms or Transfiguration class, though I lean more toward a class specifically for Apparation. It may be taught by a Hogwarts Professor, or an outside instructor may come in for that specific purpose. This outside instructor may or may not be a member of the Ministry. Given that Fred and George turned 17 in April of their 6th year, and took their Apparation test in the summer between their 6th and 7th years, I think we can conclude that this is standard for most students. Percy is the exception to the rule. That means they either learn Apparation in the first few weeks of summer holiday, or they learned while they were at Hogwarts. Now we must ask, how complex and difficult is Apparation, is it a full course of study, or just a quick few weeks of review? Obviously, I lean toward a full course of study. Note, while I said they learn while /at/ Hogwarts, that doesn't necessarily imply that they were taugh /by/ Hogwarts, as you said, it may be the Ministry's responsibility to teach them. None the less, I still feel it will occur during 6th year. Ron and Hermione can take their test in July, and Harry can take his in August. Again, I don't demand that everyone agree with me, but I have given this some serious long hard thought, and all signs point to 6th year at Hogwarts, which of course is exactly what I want. Steve/bboyminn From chnc1024 at earthlink.com Wed May 25 23:10:50 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.com (Chancie) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:10:50 -0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129496 In a message dated 5/25/2005 1:17:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, tigerpatronus at yahoo.com writes: Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters or characteristics of new character for full credit. Chancie: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Not sure... I believe it will not be a new character, but not one given much page time either... ummm... I guess I'll say Trevor the Frog, just because I think it could be interesting... 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Maybe, she learned from Snape the measures Lord Voldemort took to keep from dying, and used that info to decide how to help defend Harry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? A member of the Order (not necessarily a known member) 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? And undercover DE, it would be too easy for the order if the Minister was on their side. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Definitely a Pensive. Who's ever it is it will reveal shocking information about the event's of Godric's Hollow 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course he will! JKR has said how much she likes writing those scenes, do you REALLY think she'd give those up? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Hmmm ... this one's a little harder, but I think yes. After the DoM, Neville will have more courage and be less sensitive to Snape's bullying, and will want to take the Advanced Potions class to become a Healer. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Everything except, Astronomy, and History of Magic Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Percy Weasley will try to make amends with his family (only Molly will accept him without question) fail miserably, and it will result in his death and other possible deaths in the Order, as well as tipping the DE's off about the organization. 2. 12 Grimmauld place is placed in to the hands of the Malfoy's or another Black relative, but upon arrival they will be enraged to find that the house has disappeared from the street. 3. Harry will be re-enstated a Seeker, and Ginny will become Chaser, this will also leave time open for Harry to really start to notice her as a girl, and not just Ron's sister. 4. Ron will stay on as Keeper, become the captain of the Quidditch team, and prove to be a better Keeper than Wood. 5. Ron and Hermione will start letting their guard down to one another. One or the other of them will confess their romantic felling for the other, and by the end of the book there will be talks of an acutal boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Wed May 25 23:26:10 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 16:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050525232610.20587.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129497 [snip article about publishing leak] Steve wrote: I won't say who the character is, but let's face it, at one time or another, we have all predicted this particular characters death. I suspect what happened is some random bloke was having his coffee at the local coffee shop and said, I think 'so-and-so' is going to die,and the mere fact that this person was within 50 miles of the printing factory set off a stampede to the local betting shop. Move along folks, nothing to see here. *************************** So you are saying a leak wasn't likely? Obviously there was nothing inspired in the actual prediction. In fact I totally think it improbable the HBP prediction is correct. JKR said many times that story line was discarded. Tingtingler also had some strong remarks about it. My purpose for posting it was mainly curiosity about any additional news concerning the "leak" and the betting--not about what the prediction was. Tingtingler said the same thing happened last release and that the books are being publishing in Germany, not at the location in the story. I understood it that parts were being published both places. I also want to point out that this is not just a rag paper running the story. As for its predictions, I don't care and there is definitelyly nothing to see. It is the business and JKR's precautions that I find of interest. theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Wed May 25 23:38:42 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:38:42 -0000 Subject: HP Conventional Wisdom Watch III - Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129498 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > ...edited... > > NEVILLE LONGBOTTOM -- Mixed. Most expect him to flower in HBP. But > JKR seems to be saying he just ain't all that important from the > prophecy standpoint, and that even Dumbledore has the attitude "Nice > kid, but of course he isn't close to being in the same league with > Harry, that goes without saying." > > ,,,edited,,, > > Lupinlore bboyminn: Mixed? True, JKR has shot down any possibility that Neville is secretly the 'chosen one' based on a mistaken interpretation of the Prophecy. But she hasn't discounted Neville entirely, and as a big Neville fan, I think we can expect great things from him. JKR - "Of course, none of this should be taken to mean that Neville does not have a significant part to play in the last two novels, or the fight against Voldemort." That doesn't sound like a Neville who is 'treading water', to me, that sound like a Neville with the potential to rise high, far, and fast. Of course, that's just my opinion. Steve/bboyminn From gelite67 at yahoo.com Wed May 25 23:52:42 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:52:42 -0000 Subject: Parody of "Do You Really Want To Hurt Me? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129499 To the tune of, "Do You Really Want to Hurt Me?" by Culture Club. Gave him time To commit his crimes Torture, maim, and kill The Ministry, it still denies How can he be real? Did really want to curse me? Did he really want to make me die? Avada Kadevra Words that scarred me Never got to ask him why On my forehead, scar is burning Clues abound but Can't get far Mrs. Weasley always tells me Don't fly or Enchant that car Does he really want to curse me? Does he really want to make me die? Does he really want to curse me? Does he really want to make me die? Many threats He has spoken Hogwart's been a thousand years Ronald's wand's no longer broken Still we all have got our fears Hermione's all right but believe me That's not the way I wanna go This boy loves his Ginny Weasley Just want everyone to know I must kill him or him kill me Trelawney did say Dumbledore helped me to see It must end that way Yes, he really wants to hurt me Yes, he really wants to make me die Repeat chorus Angie From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu May 26 00:12:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:12:36 -0000 Subject: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: <20050525232610.20587.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > [snip article about publishing leak] > > Steve wrote: > I won't say who the character is, but let's face it, at one time or > another, we have all predicted this particular characters death. > > I suspect what happened is some random bloke was having his coffee > at the local coffee shop and said, I think 'so-and-so' is going to > die,and the mere fact that this person was within 50 miles of the > printing factory set off a stampede to the local betting shop. > > Move along folks, nothing to see here. > *************************** > Theotokos: > > So you are saying a leak wasn't likely? ...edited... My purpose for > posting it was mainly curiosity about any additional news concerning > the "leak" and the betting--not about what the prediction was. I don't think we can lend much credibility to an 'leak', remember these companies are liable for a small fortune if their they leak anything. Further, if I were one of these printing companies I would make if very clear to any of my employees that if they leaked any information, that the liability incurred by the company would be passed on to them. In other words, if your big mouth cost me $3,000,000, then you better get yourself a very good lawyer because you are going to need it. A leak and a liablility like this could completely distroy a company, both financially and by reputation. I'm more incline to think, as I illustrated, that it was a random comment by someone in the general vicinity of that community, that has taken off. > Theotokos continues: > > I also want to point out that this is not just a rag paper running > the story. As for its predictions, I don't care and there is > definitelyly nothing to see. It is the business and JKR's > precautions that I find of interest. > > theotokos bboyminn: Don't consider where you read the story, consider the original source. The story originated in the Mirror, or the Sun, or the Globe or some other sensationalistic tabloid paper that specializes in taking non-news/non-stories and turning them into overblown headlines. Once they printed it, the rest of the news media picked it up and spread it around. First, the whole thing is speculation. Someone speculated that because betting we strong for a particular character in a particular vague and general area that someone might have leaked something. Further, it's possible that the logical trend was for a lot of people to bet on this character, we've all done it. Then when people in that area saw this natural and expected trend, the rushed to jump on the band wagon and threw everything out of proportion. I think it is more likely the blind following the blind than anyone with any real insight. We could just as easily speculate that any poll found at the "Harry Potter for Grownups" group, where people are deeply intellectual and extremely knowledgable, and respresent the combined massive intellect of the entire Harry Potter fan world, are 'in the know' and are certainly correct in their prediction. As a matter of fact, that very character always come in highly rated in our death predictions. Perhaps tommorrow, The Mirror will indicate that we have 'leaked' the secret. My point is that this isn't a story about a 'leak', it is a story about a vague and generally baseless speculation about the possibility of a leak. Regardless of whether the leak was true or not, the employees of that print shop have mostly now been severly warned of the dark and dire consequence of actually leaking any information. Any employee who doesn't fancy themselves buried in a mountain of lawyers had better keep quiet. Just trying to establish some perspective, that's all. Steve/bboyminn From kjones at telus.net Wed May 25 22:23:44 2005 From: kjones at telus.net (Kathryn Jones) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 15:23:44 -0700 Subject: Magical Education was Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4294FAF0.6080705@telus.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129501 Lupinlore wrote: > Well of course they're wrong, Magda! Chuckle. Do you really > think those of use who believe in child-centered education are > going to say "This system we fight hard for and believe in > passionately is no better than any other?" That's just not > human nature. Sorry, but a lot of us are never going to see > Snape's methods as anything but obviously and terribly wrong, > and the Wizarding World as being nothing but completely in the > wrong for allowing him to treat students the way he does, > especially Harry. Kathy writes: I am going to stick my neck out here and agree with Magda, although I fully expect to see Lupinlore chop it off. Our child-centred educational system allows our children to go to school, secure in the knowledge that there is absolutely nothing a teacher can do to them. Even detentions have gone the way of the dinosaur due to bussing issues. Nobody gets extra work. What's the point if the little sods won't do their homework? Discipline is more and more regulated at home and probably half of our society's kids never hear the word "NO" until their first court appearance, and nobody takes that seriously anyway. A full quarter more hear the word "no" at inconsistent intervals and choose to ignore it. Lack of discipline, whether internal or external is a serious problem in our society. Now picture several hundred undisciplined magical children and the complete and utter havoc they could create. Magnify that by generations of undisciplined Magical adults. Snape may go too far at times, and I don't agree with belittling students, but I'm willing to bet that no teacher gets admonished for being too strict. Keep in mind that the only really unforgiveable punishment was inflicted by Umbridge. As far as "human nature" is concerned, we are just as much predators as snakes, badgers, lions, and eagles. I notice that none of the house animals are mice, lambs, rabbits, or ponies. Of course, I am in Canada. Perhaps your teachers are still allowed to yell at the little darlings. KJ From alishak at spu.edu Wed May 25 22:54:52 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 22:54:52 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129502 > Kemper now: > > The workable alternative for Kreacher are: > > 1. Snape poisons Kreacher (to protect himself?), > 2. Mad Eye AKs him (to protect the order), > 3. Phineas' orders Kreacher to commit suicide (he listens to > Mrs. Black's portrait why not Phineas), > 4. Kreacher escapes when he feels the magical bind to the > family lift upon Sirius' death (do we actually think he'll > stick around?). There is one other alternative that I have been mulling over and rather like. Once upon a time there was an English king (I forget which one. I think Henry VIII), who was frustrated with the Archbishop of Canterbury (actually a good friend of his). One night at dinner, the king jokingly said, "Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?" Two drunken knights overheard the king and decided to take that as an order from him to kill the Archbishop. When the king found out, he was furious and ordered the execution of the knights. Voila. The king remains blameless and is rid of his problematic friend. What if DD mentions in an Order meeting that Kreacher poses a security problem and one of the members (Snape, Mad-Eye, even Arthur) decides this is carte blanche to kill the meddlesome elf? -Alisha From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Wed May 25 23:34:59 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:34:59 -0000 Subject: Predictions Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129503 Okay, I'll bite: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? There will be two, actually?Fred and George. I think so for a number of reasons--not the least of which is simply intuition. They will die either at the hands of the Death Eaters, or the MOM, or some combination of the two. There is a big difference between breaking rules in school and skirting around the law in the world outside of Hogwarts. I think they will go down fighting like their uncles, the Prewitts. Furthermore, over and over we have been told how similar they are to James and Serius?the only two Marauders to die so far. I think they will join the Order of the Phoenix, and I think they will die. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? No idea. I do think it will be a new character. 3. What is Lily's big secret? She knew what was going to happen at Godric's Hollow and took steps to protect Harry. 4. Who will be the next DADA teacher? I'd really like it to be either Lupin or the real Mad Eye Moody, but don't think it will be either of them. I guess it will be a new character?maybe Felix Felicias. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Probably nobody in this book; he has too much else on his mind. If he does, however, I vote for Ginny, but suspect they won't get together until book 7. 6. Who will be the next minister of magic? Amos Diggory has the most potential to provide a rich texture to the next book. He's over his shock at Cedric's death, and now seriously blames Harry for it. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the US HBP cover? Hmmm a pensieve maybe? I don't know whose?it looks older than DD's. Whoever's (is there such a word?) it is, I think Harry will use it to see what happened at Godric's Hollow that fateful night. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course! 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? I hope so, so yeah. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Don't know how the grading is done?one or two for written and practical. I'm thinking yes for: DADA, Potions, Transfiguration, Charms, and Care of Magical Creatures, and no for Divination, History of Magic, and possibly Astronomy. So I guess five or six (ten or twelve?) "yes," and two or three (four or six?) "no." I think he'll have O's on DADA, Potions, and Care of Magical Creatures, and E's on Transfiguration and Charms. If he passes Astronomy, it will be with no more than an A. Other Predictions: 1. Sybil will make a third prediction. 2. Katie Bell will be the next Griffindor Quidditch captain 3. Kreacher's head will be mounted at #12 Grimmauld Place. (Well, I can dream, can't I?) 4. Draco will go over to the Dark Side to take revenge on Harry, and Narcissa will also become more active on the Dark Side. 5. Victor will reappear, and Ron will be very upset, leading him finally to realize and express his feelings for Hermione. 6. We will learn who killed Broderick Bode. My money is on Elphias Doge. Cheers, Cleverwitch From maliksthong at yahoo.com Wed May 25 23:39:55 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:39:55 -0000 Subject: Ruddy stargazers and The Prophecy (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129504 "dungrollin": That's the problem with trying to tell the future, if you're any good at it, the future you predict ought to take into account your own actions which result from having predicted that future. So to speak. Chys: *Sorry in advance if I repeat something someone else said, I haven't read the responses.* This makes me think that Trelawney's prophecies/predictions are self fulfilling. I think she caused Neville to drop that cup simply by mentioning it. There was mention of Voldemort attacking Harry because he thought he was fulfilling the requirements of the prophecy by destroying him (Or some such thing perhaps worded differently,) and then he ended up marking him and fulfilling it anyway, in a different manner. I'm certain others have mentioned it before, but if there were no prophecy, he never would have done that, am I wrong? The Centaur Fierenze said something about it's not an exact art, in that they can't be sure that what they are predicting is actually factual predictions, it can be interpreted in many ways and if you aren't skilled you won't see it at all, (But with different wording, I'm bad at remembering exact phrases, that's the gist of what I remember from that chapter...) so it's all just smoke and mirrors IMO. *Just a thought-* I've always thought prophecies were cheap ways of messing with the story (No put-downs to authors who use them, but it's redundant and irritating to me,) since they always seem to be self-fulfilling regardless of any character's actions for or against them. "dungrollin": ("No, I don't fancy rain today, move the dial to ... Mediterranean summer evening"). Chys: Oh, I had a laugh over this! LOL! And I don't believe I have seen Hermione on a sugar high either. *would retreat back a step.* "dungrollin": DD says something about Voldy wanting the prophecy so he could find out how to kill Harry, but the prophecy appears to say no such thing. What's going on? Chys: There was a conversation here about this before... Forgive me, but I don't know what post number or who was involved, but I agree with them that DD was not showing Harry every detail of the Prophecy, the way it was worded just seemed off to me, when compared to the other Trelawney prophecy as given, and I know JKR could have done better if that were the complete version. If it is complete "as is" I believe I will be severely disappointed in her on that part. It could just be that LV thought there was more, and that's simply the driving point, or that there were something in what little of the message there was that LV could glean from it and find a way to bring the boy down. I do think it's connected to that part you mentioned, "neither can live while the other survives." At first, I just figured it was simple and basic, one has to die for the other to live. Now I'm not so sure, I think it's connected to the smoke snakes, but that was never properly explained in the book. I hope she elaborates further later on. Chys From violettaprimrose at hotmail.com Thu May 26 00:04:24 2005 From: violettaprimrose at hotmail.com (kmohdia) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:04:24 -0000 Subject: In Support of Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129505 Dear "Grownups-Who-Love-HARRYPOTTER" , I read in "MADAM'S SCOOP'S TO J.K. ROWLING " the following interview referrance : Quote from Time Magazine, 2000 in which JK says: "Mostly they [kids] are really worried about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend. What I find interesting is only once has anyone said to me, "Don't kill Hermione," and that was after a reading when I said no one's ever worried about her... They see her as someone who is not vulnerable, but I see her as someone who does have quite a lot of vulnerability in her personality" I find that I find it quite surprising that how people can NOT care about the second best friend of Harry. Surely, I can't imagine the book without Hermione. I am truly inspired by Hermione. She has always tried to help out Harry whenever she could. She is the true essence of best friend. Sure she sometimes is a bit of a show-off. But she has come a long way from the "snotty thing". Even in the "SS" she is starting evolving :"Books! And cleverness! There are more important things -- friendship and bravery." As for vulnerability. Now this is quite obvious to me because I have a bit of Hermione in me. I know that a person who is an overachiever is actually quite insecure and so very much vulnerable. Also, she is a true softy - remember Crookshanks? "Poor Crookshanks, that witch said he'd been in there for ages; no one wanted him." Then how she helped Hagrid to prepare the case for Buckbeak. Now that I think of it she could make a fine animal activist! As for what makes Ron vulnerable is that he is a bit underconfident and the "weak one" in the trio. He is a bit sorry for himself for being "poor". Then not only has Ron got elder brother's which are much "accomplished" to live up to. (His family expectations are high - remember at the sorting ceremony - Ron was particularly nervous,indeed desperate to get into Griffyndor). Then his friends are the famous Harry Potter & the most genius outstanding student- Hermione -obviously he'll look weak - or vulnerable standing against these two - anyone would ! As for Hermione,I simply love her. J.K. Rowling can be satisfied that there is one person who cannot have her die/be killed. "Declared Hermione Fan" Mohammedi (Violet) From gelite67 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 02:10:56 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 02:10:56 -0000 Subject: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allison_m_otto" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, elfundeb wrote: > While Harry's glasses improve > > his ordinary vision, I think he is vulnerable *because* he wears > > glasses. I think his eyes harbor a power that Harry will be able to > > use against Voldemort, but the glasses block that power. (Yeah, so > > that means that somewhere in the final battle, Harry's glasses will > be knocked off, unlocking the means of defeating Voldemort. . . .) > > snipped > > Hmmm. This made me think. First, we don't know if Harry would have needed glasses had the AK curse not been performed on him. Second, does it seem odd at all that he's so good at spotting the smallest, fastest ball used in Quidditch, yet wears glasses? I wonder, is Harry's vision 20/20 with his glasses? Seems like there is a line from one of the books, as part of the narrative, that says so something like, for nothing was Harry the youngest Quidditch player in a century; he had a knack for seeing things others didn't." Is that because of his glasses or in spite of them? Angie From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 02:11:32 2005 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (WhizBang121) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 19:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] In Support of Hermione In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050526021132.13157.qmail@web32807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129508 --- kmohdia wrote: > As for Hermione,I simply love her. J.K. Rowling > can be > satisfied that there is one person who cannot have her > die/be > killed. > > "Declared Hermione Fan" > Mohammedi (Violet) Whiz: I love Hermione, too and I think she's extremely vulnerable. She was petrified in CoS, and threatened with muggle torture by Draco Malfoy in GoF. Draco made it clear to Harry and Ron just how vulnerable she was. Then Dolohov nearly got her with his Purple Special. But I keep my eye on Hermione, too. She's proved more than once that she can keep a secret from the boys. From books one to four, they often think how she looks and sounds like McGonagall. In OotP, they notice that she looks and sounds like Molly Weasley. Hermione is very impressionable. But is she also working with adults to "keep and eye" on Harry and perhaps to attempt to influence him as a peer? I love her ... but I wonder. WhizBang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MoM Minister of Magic __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ginny343 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 00:12:50 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 00:12:50 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Passing through the guarding spells In-Reply-To: <20050525171214.98234.qmail@web50503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129509 > Linda: > > But what about the chessboard? Did Quirrell have to > > play his way across it too? And then did it clean > > itself up to be ready for HRH? > Julie: > In SS (283) it states that "there was a huddle of limp > black players slumped along the wall." I assume at > the end they did clean themselves up for another round. Okay, I agree maybe after the door was opened they got up and moved back into place. > Linda: > > And then how about the potions. The one Harry finally > > drank from was so small only one person could drink from it. > > I don't think is looked as if someone else had already taken > > a drink because then it would have been obvious which one > > was the right one. So, how was Quirrell able to pass? > Julie: > Hermione "took a long drink" from her bottle. Harry > "drained the little bottle in one gulp." There was > obviously less potion in Harry's bottle. However, > even if they had noticed it, I don't think they would > have wanted to bet on that being the case. The > bottles were all different sizes and shapes. No > telling if only a little was put in there to make it > seem like that was the right bottle. They still had > to logic it out. Okay, here is the quote from the book that still makes me doubt: Harry looked at the tiny bottle. "There's only enough there for one of us," he said. "That's hardly one swallow." I don't doubt they would logic it out - they aren't taking chances here - but I still think that if the bottle was so "tiny" that there was just a swallow's worth in there, that any missing liquid would have been noticed more readily. I mean, considering the bottles are all sizes, I would assume (which probably I shouldn't) that they are all filled about the same. Anyway, we will never know. JKR only says the bottles were different sizes, not if some were more full than others. I just picture a very small bottle, filled with just enough for a swallow in it. Julie: > Don't forget that there was a troll that Hermione and Harry > didn't have to fight since it was already unconscious from > Quirrell. Quirrell had a way with trolls. Okay, yes there was the troll, but that makes me wonder too. Hermione said, after the chessboard, that only Quirrell's and Snape's spells were left. If this is true, then Quirrell brought the troll in (which is what I figured the first time, since he was good at dealing with them, he knew that would not be a problem for him). However, Dumbledore set up this whole "guarding the stone" thing, so he must have known what each teacher contributed. So if he knows Quirrell doesn't have a problem with trolls, wouldn't he have been suspicious of Quirrell's "sprinting into the hall" with a look of "terror" on his face on Halloween, and then sinking to the floor in a "dead faint"? Surely if you personally brought in a troll to guard something, you don't freak out like that because of one. Julie: > Everyone had to pass the tests. Although I do think > that Dumbledore had a way to get there quicker than > most. Can you see him on a broomstick? I think since Dumbledore was in charge of guarding the stone, he knew how to bypass all these spells. I think I am missing something here that is important, but maybe not. I am also curious about the conversation with Snape and Quirrell in the forest. I am still reading back through posts on this one. It just seems to me that if Snape knew Quirrell was after the stone, he should have gone to Dumbledore and suggested better/different protection be given to the stone. And maybe he did, we just don't see that. I just have a feeling that something that happened in SS/PS, that we haven't paid much attention to, is going to become important later. Linda From maliksthong at yahoo.com Thu May 26 01:29:38 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 01:29:38 -0000 Subject: Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: <010c01c5616e$34c17e40$8000a8c0@casa> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129510 (snippage all around) What ifs? Apparating is something that could be learned at school, in an elective, but is monitored like the DMV- at the ministry, of course, and so they have to take their tests when they aren't at school. Or it's learned outside of school, tested outside of school, and thus it's done in a person's spare time in the summer. Whatever. I still think it's something that will be touched on in future books because I think it would be valuable to Harry. It's interesting. JKR will probably come back to it, or else why have it at all as such a focal point? I think Harry's envious of the Twins ability to apparate, so will want to do so himself. Perhaps it will be something that Harry will have to learn in a life- or-death desperate situation, and like the summer dementor incident- probably get into trouble for if it's found out, and would use to his advantage to even the score some in an outside of school setting. Perhaps he does it while he's fighting a DE and they didn't realize he could, and neither did he? His opponents have a habit of miscalculating his abilities/potential for good luck. Would be fun. Chys From lwalsh at acsalaska.net Thu May 26 02:27:34 2005 From: lwalsh at acsalaska.net (Laura Lynn Walsh) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 18:27:34 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129511 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore - at the end of book 6. He has seen that Harry has learned the skills that he need to defeat Lord Voldemort. Now he needs to be out of the way so that maximum disorder and chaos can be achieved and the next generation of true heroes can emerge. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy", describe more.) Godric Griffindor - His mother was a troll or a giantess. That is why the Sorting Hat is so big. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Anyone who has the bright green eyes that Lilly and Harry have has been protected from evil by a strong charm. Lilly knows how to do the protective charm and that is why Voldemort was willing to spare her life if she would tell him and hand over Harry. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Kingsley Shacklebolt. He isn't needed in the hunt for Sirius any more and might be prevailed upon to teach DADA. Second choice, Tonks. Harry needs to learn Metamorphmagic. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones, Susan's Auntie. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A pensieve on a pedestal. Dumbledore will show Harry what his parents did before he was born. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Eleven. Defense Against the Dark Arts (written and practical), Care of Magical Creatures (written and practical), Potions (written and practical), Charms (written and practical), Astronomy (due to the interruption in the practical exam, the scoring will be altered slightly), not Divination, not History of Magic, Herbology (not outstanding, but a pass) Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Harry and Hermione (but not Ron) will master legilimancy and occulmency and use it to find out what happened to Neville when he was a baby that affected his memory. 2. Norbert will be let loose after his babyhood, will recognize Hagrid, and will come to his aid. 3. Fred and George will develop a double-ended chew candy that allows someone to become invisible and it will be critical in aiding the cause of the Order of the Phoenix. 4. Neville's memory will become unblocked and he will be one of the most powerful of the new generation of wizards, but the unblocking will not cure his parents. 5. Luna will return with evidence of Crumple-horned Snorkacks and Hermione will have to concede that they exist. 6. It will be revealed that Mrs. Norris was once a real person. Laura Walsh lwalsh at acsalaska.net Coming out of lurker mode, because this intrigues me. From willsonkmom at msn.com Thu May 26 03:01:58 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 03:01:58 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129512 > > Potioncat: snip And the trio continued to believe Snape was the one who hexed the broom until the Quirrell told Harry differently. There was lot's of good evidence to believe it was Snape then too. Amiable Dorsai: > I guess I may have given the wrong impression: I don't believe that > Snape is a supporter of Voldemort. Potioncat: By now I should know better than to post when I'm in a hurry. I don't think I really made my point. Let me try again, with apologies for the long quoted sections. A snipped version of earlier posts: > >>Amiable Dorsai: > >OK, let's get a bit more concrete: Snape's attempt at teaching > Harry Occlumency left Harry more open to Voldemort than he was > before. Bad teaching.< > > Betsy replied: snip Harry has his opinions, yes. But is his opinion ever > confirmed? Amiable Dorsai responded: Well, I don't know who would be a better authority than the person it was actually happening to. Potioncat again: Harry thinks that the Occlumency lessons are making him more open to LV's probing. We don't know that he is correct. Just like it looked like Snape was hexing Harry's broom, but he wasn't. From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 03:06:47 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 03:06:47 -0000 Subject: What exactly did Snape do in OOTP? In-Reply-To: <20050522001528.86806.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Amy Klein wrote: > > > [Carol:] > At first glance it may appear that Karkaroff's hearing changed all > that. He testifies in front of 200 people that Snape is a Death Eater. Dumbledore is forced to come forward and indicate that Snape *was* a Death Eater, but that he "is now no more a Death Eater than I am" and that *before* Voldemort's fall, he "returned to our side" and spied on the Death Eaters "at great personal risk." This statement is not made in public; it is apparently a closed hearing before the Wizengamot. Rita Skeeter certainly is not present as she was for Ludo Bagman's hearing. Neither are any Death Eaters. > Amy responded: > I have a question though. There were as we discovered MoM people who are death eaters. In OoTP we discovered that Avery was an unspeakable. Whose to say that there aren't any on the Wizengamot that aren't DE's? And there was also Rookwood, who almost got Ludo in Azkaban for passing info. However, you would think that LV would know about Snape being a spy from people telling him. If he does know then he's not saying anything or is he playing with Snape? Is LV using Snape as a spy for LV and asked him to do this before the attack on the Potter's knowing ahead of time that it might turn bad? Just a few things to ponder. > > Mind still twirling with questions, > > Amy Carol responds: At this point, those questions appear to be unanswerable. I do think that Snape is "the one [Voldemort] believe[s] has left [him] forever," but his suspicion appears to be based on Snape's absence from the graveyard, along with possible reports (remember the eagle owl?) from Crouch!Moody to Voldemort. Snape's behavior with regard to Quirrell in SS/PS may also have aroused Voldemort's suspicions. I think that Snape put those doubts and suspicions to rest at the end of GoF when he was sent by Voldemort on a perilous errand. Almost certainly he reported either to Lucius Malfoy or Voldemort himself, in which case he would have needed all his skill as a "superb Occlumens" to convince Voldemort that he was still faithful. But as I said in the snipped portion of the quoted post, the non-Slytherin parents have no apparent suspicions that Snape is a former Death Eater and the DEs themselves seem to trust him (or did before the debacle at the DoM). For that reason, I'm almost certain that no Death Eaters were present at Karkaroff's hearing other than Karkaroff himself (Rookwood wasn't), and I'm guessing that the Wizengamot members who were present were sworn to secrecy (probably in advance) through some magically binding contract. All I can say with any degree of certainty is that it clearly is *not* common knowledge in the Wizarding World that Severus Snape was once a Death Eater. That could easily change in HBP, however, especially if Kreacher is alive and conveying information to Narcissa Malfoy. Carol, noting that it's customary on this list to indicate snippage and identify the author of the post you're quoting From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 26 03:37:33 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 03:37:33 -0000 Subject: More Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129514 Reading all of the discussion on Apparating I have come to this conclusion. It is like Drivers Ed for Muggles. Most adults drive, but not all. And it is a big deal when you get your first license. It is studied as an extra subject after school hours or on a Saturday. It use to be and maybe still is, that if you were 18 or older you don't really need to take a class if you can past both the written and practical tests. Only those who want their license at age 16 have to take Drivers Ed. Maybe the same is true of Apparating. Maybe they take it on the weekends and then take their test in the summer. It is a big deal when they get their first license, but not after that. While all of the wizards we know Apparate and apparently have a license to do so, it may be possible that some do not. Maybe some just fly, take Muggle transportation if they live in London, etc. Tonks_op From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Thu May 26 04:01:58 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (Emily) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 04:01:58 -0000 Subject: Wizard Transit (was Re: More Apparating Lessons) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129515 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: snip > While all of the wizards we know Apparate and apparently have a license > to do so, it may be possible that some do not. Maybe some just fly, > take Muggle transportation if they live in London, etc. > imamommy: I think Arthur makes a comment about some wizards not bothering with Apparition, as it can be tricky to do (this is when he starts talking about the pair that went and splinched themselves). I would suppose that those with underage children would need other methods, but I doubt they use muggle means very much; when the Weasley's travel they often use the Floo Network, and somewhere we've seen an advert for a family-sized broomstick. (I hear American wizards are working on an SUV-broom with seats that fold down and lots of storage space in the handle lol) Further evidence that not everyone in the wizarding world apparates is the fact that the MoM has a double row of fireplaces for Floo- ing. I would imagine that yes, apparition is on par with driving, and using Floo powder more along the lines of taking public transit. There's also the Knight Bus.... imamommy From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 04:11:19 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 04:11:19 -0000 Subject: SS/PS Passing through the guarding spells In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129516 Linda wrote: > Okay, here is the quote from the book that still makes me doubt: > > Harry looked at the tiny bottle. > "There's only enough there for one of us," he said. "That's > hardly one swallow." > > I don't doubt they would logic it out - they aren't taking > chances here - but I still think that if the bottle was so "tiny" > that there was just a swallow's worth in there, that any missing > liquid would have been noticed more readily. I just picture a very > small bottle, filled with just enough for a swallow in it. Carol responds: I think that Julie's response neatly takes care of the chessboard part of your question, so I've snipped it. As for the potions, maybe Snape enchanted them to magically refill themselves in case someone followed the original intruder. At any rate, I had the same question when I first read SS, and that's how I answered it to my own satisfaction (after I knew that he wasn't after the stone, that is. He'd have had a different motive for magically refilling the bottles if he were the bad guy Harry thought he was.) Linda wrote: > Okay, yes there was the troll, but that makes me wonder too. > Hermione said, after the chessboard, that only Quirrell's and > Snape's spells were left. If this is true, then Quirrell brought > the troll in (which is what I figured the first time, since he was good at dealing with them, he knew that would not be a problem for him). However, Dumbledore set up this whole "guarding the stone" thing, so he must have known what each teacher contributed. So if > he knows Quirrell doesn't have a problem with trolls, wouldn't he have been suspicious of Quirrell's "sprinting into the hall" with > a look of "terror" on his face on Halloween, and then sinking to > the floor in a "dead faint"? Surely if you personally brought in > a troll to guard something, you don't freak out like that because > of one. Carol responds: Excellent point that I don't have an answer to. But certainly *Snape* was suspicious of Quirrell's feigned terror, so he must have known about Quirrell placing a troll as a barrier to the stone and spotted the inconsistency in his behavior. Maybe as you suggest in the paragraph I snipped, Snape did express his suspicions to Dumbledore and let him know that he (Snape) was watching Quirrell. But it's also possible that Snape wanted to deter Quirrell on his own, a way of proving his loyalty to Dumbledore and receiving DD's approval, maybe. Minds are complex, as Snape himself states, and I don't pretend to understand his. (I don't doubt his loyalty or his courage, but his wisdom in this instance seems questionable.) Carol From tonks_op at yahoo.com Thu May 26 04:37:56 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 04:37:56 -0000 Subject: Dry Humor in HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129517 It always amazes me how so many people can read the same books and have such different interpretations of what they have read. One wonders what the author thought would happen when folks read her books. Prior to being a member of this list, if I were an author I would naively assume that everyone would read it the way that I intended. It would never occur to me that there would be such diverse interpretations. Now I am older and wiser and realize that people do see the events and characters in sometimes radically opposite extremes. Reading this list has really been an education for me in diversity. Having said that, I wonder about the humor of JKR. Dry, sarcastic humor, what some call dark humor or gallows humor can be difficult to convey in person. I tend to use that type of humor myself and I know that not everyone takes what I say as humor. Some think that I am being serious. It is even more difficult to convey that type of humor in written form. I think that JKR does use that type of humor in the books and just as in RL the fact that it is humor does not come across. People on the list here are in two camps on a number of issues involving the behavior of certain characters. I suspect one reason for this is that there is a difference in the perception of the humor that the author is using. For example, take the incident in the second book when Uncle Vernon locks Harry in his room and feeds him through bars on the door. Some here see that as severe child abuse and others don't interpret it as strongly. Now I don't want to start these fights all over again. But I suspect that part of radical difference in POV is that some take the books more literally and others see some of these scenes as the author's humor. I for one see that particular scene not as "poor Harry see what they are doing to him now", but rather as "poor Vernon, he has really gone off the deep end this time" and see it as a humorous commentary on Vernon's fears. I see it as similar to when he drags the family all over the place trying to get away from the letters in the first book. The same is true for many (not all) of Snape's comments. Take the time he said he didn't see any difference in Hermione's teeth. I have a friend like that; she might say the same sort of thing to me in a similar situation. It is not being mean and thoughtless, it is humor. And in a stressful moment, it can be helpful. Now if it came from someone I really hated I might take it as something else. As a reader, however, I often take Snape's comments as humorous. That time in the teachers lounge when he bates and sets up Lockhart was one of the best. There are a lot of places in the books where I think that JKR uses a dry sense of humor, and it is one of the things that I love about the books. Tonks_op From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 04:41:06 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 04:41:06 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129518 Amiable Dorsai wrote: > > >OK, let's get a bit more concrete: Snape's attempt at teaching > > Harry Occlumency left Harry more open to Voldemort than he was > > before. Bad teaching.< > > > > Betsy replied: > snip > Harry has his opinions, yes. But is his opinion ever confirmed? > > Amiable Dorsai responded: > Well, I don't know who would be a better authority than the person it was actually happening to. > > > Potioncat again: > Harry thinks that the Occlumency lessons are making him more open to > LV's probing. We don't know that he is correct. Just like it looked > like Snape was hexing Harry's broom, but he wasn't. Carol adds: Not to mention that on his first encounter with Snape, he thought it was Snape who was making his scar hurt. (Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.) I think something similar but more complex is happening during the occlumency lessons. Harry's own desire to complete the dream opens him up to Voldemort. Also he happens to have one of his most intense visions or insights into Voldemort's mind and emotions alsmost immediately after an occlumency lesson. so, from Harry's perspective, it *seems* that Snape is opening his mind to Voldemort. But if that were what occlumency does, Dumbledore would never have insisted that Snape teach it and Harry take it. So I agree with Potioncat. Harry is often wrong in his interpretation of events that are happening to him or around him, and I think he's wrong in this instance as well. As a sidenote: Just because something is happening to me doesn't make me an authority on the cause of that something. Otherwise I wouldn't have to ask a doctor why my stomach aches (or whatever). I'd know because the cause because the stomachache was happening to me. Doesn't happen that way, unfortunately. Carol, with apologies for not having read the whole thread From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu May 26 04:54:24 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 04:54:24 -0000 Subject: Magical Education was Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: <4294FAF0.6080705@telus.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Jones wrote: > Lupinlore wrote: > > > Kathy writes: > I am going to stick my neck out here and agree with Magda, > although I fully expect to see Lupinlore chop it off. Our > child-centred educational system allows our children to go to > school, secure in the knowledge that there is absolutely nothing > a teacher can do to them. Even detentions have gone the way of > the dinosaur due to bussing issues. Nobody gets extra work. > What's the point if the little sods won't do their homework? Chuckle. Keep your head, I'm sure you need it more than I do. I already have several I've cut off lining my bookshelves, and they tend to get in the way. > > Discipline is more and more regulated at home and probably half > of our society's kids never hear the word "NO" until their first court appearance, and nobody takes that seriously anyway. A full quarter more hear the word "no" at inconsistent intervals and > choose to ignore it. Lack of discipline, whether internal or > external is a serious problem in our society. Now picture several hundred undisciplined magical children and the complete and utter havoc they could create. Magnify that by generations of undisciplined Magical adults. Snape may go too far at times, and > I don't agree with belittling students, but I'm willing to bet > that no teacher gets admonished for being too strict. Keep in > mind that the only really unforgiveable punishment was inflicted > by Umbridge. > Your point about magic and discipline is a good one. I think it might make a good argument with regard to Snape's demeanor toward most students (leaving aside his house favoritism). Yet his attitude toward Harry and Neville appears to be something else again. I have to admit, I just don't buy the idea that Snape thinks he's doing something honorable by keeping Harry from being "arrogant" like James, or by trying to put some "spine" into Neville. I also don't buy the idea that Dumbledore would be so concerned with Snape's sense of honor that he wouldn't reprimand him for fear of undermining it. I think that Snape is being sadistic because he's a sick and wounded man, and Dumbledore doesn't act out of many reasons (a misguided belief in restraint, a tendency to think too well of people and situations, a dearth of options if Snape blows up, a regretable tendency best seen in PoA to regard Snape as something of a Court Fool, and genuine ignorance as to the depth of Snape's antipathy toward Harry.) Well, okay, I'll admit that I'm really spinning my wheels here, because I think mostly this is just a plot device and JKR really doesn't have any convincing or believable explanations. But, still, the discipline aspect is very interesting. However, it raises many questions -- not least if discipline is so important, what are Hagrid and his creatures doing as part of the curriculum? Lupinlore From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Thu May 26 05:10:30 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 05:10:30 -0000 Subject: FILK: Frankie and Alice Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129520 Vulture hat and all, Grandma Longbottom in her first solo! Frankie and Alice (OOP, Chap. 23, supplemented with GoF, Chap. 30) To the tune of Frankie & Johnny (traditional folk song with multiple variants) Dedicated to Dungrollin THE SCENE: St. Mungo's. GRANDMOTHER LONGBOTTOM explains how Neville's parents became permanent residents of the closed ward RON (amazed): Is that your *dad* down the end, Neville? GRANDMOTHER LONGBOTTOM: (sharply): What's this? Haven't you told your friends about your parents, Neville? (music) Frankie and Alice were Aurors The Dark Lord, he wanted their life Three times they fought him and they walked away Was there ever such a man and wife? They shared a love that was so brave and strong. Well, Alice that night celebrated That night the Dark Lord disappeared "Oh, Frankie," she said, "the DEs will surrender, Our son can live his life without fear!" That was their dream, but, oh, it went so wrong! The Death Eaters did not surrender They thought they could bring their Lord back "The Longbottoms know his whereabouts, Frank and Alice we'll attack! Sounds like a plan ? it just cannot go wrong." Well, Frankie was captured by Barty Alice was taken by Bell "We know you know where You-Know-Who is hid, You'll regret it if you don't tell! If you resist - it will be your swan song" Well, Frankie they tortured for hours Alice they treated the same Oh, how they laughed in this evil service Of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named They were driven mad, the pain was far too strong. Well, Barty, was taken to trial Bell & Rodolphus were too And a Fourth Man was also indicted Too bad no one can remember who They were locked up for a sentence long Well, my story has spawned theories Theories of SILK GOWNS And Neville's glum When Mum give Gum While she is lookin' really run-down Wrapper in hand, that wraps up my song.... - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu May 26 05:20:43 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 05:20:43 -0000 Subject: Dry Humor in HP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > It always amazes me how so many people can read the same books and > have such different interpretations of what they have read. One > wonders what the author thought would happen when folks read her > books. Prior to being a member of this list, if I were an author I > would naively assume that everyone would read it the way that I > intended. It would never occur to me that there would be such > diverse interpretations. Now I am older and wiser and realize that > people do see the events and characters in sometimes radically > opposite extremes. Reading this list has really been an education > for me in diversity. > > Having said that, I wonder about the humor of JKR. Dry, sarcastic > humor, what some call dark humor or gallows humor can be difficult > to convey in person. I tend to use that type of humor myself and I > know that not everyone takes what I say as humor. Some think that I > am being serious. It is even more difficult to convey that type of > humor in written form. I think that JKR does use that type of humor > in the books and just as in RL the fact that it is humor does not > come across. > > People on the list here are in two camps on a number of issues > involving the behavior of certain characters. I suspect one reason > for this is that there is a difference in the perception of the > humor that the author is using. > Very good point indeed, Tonks. I used to work with somebody who had that type of humor, and there was always severe trouble because it just didn't always come across the way he meant it to. I eventually got into the habit of saying "Jim, there's two ways I can take that, which one did you mean?" It drove the poor man banannas, but eventually he became more effective at getting his point across (well, I think the fact somebody slugged him once had something to do with it as well). The problem, of course, is that you can only do that type of thing (challenging verbally, not slugging) when you are in direct communication with a person. In a situation like the Potter books, it ain't possible the vast majority of the time. If the author thinks she is being misintepreted, and if she cares (and there is no reason she has to care) then she just has to take action to make herself clearer. The burden, perhaps unfairly, is 99% on her in this situation. To a certain extent JKR uses her website to do that, as well as her interviews, but since she doesn't give many interviews or answer many questions on the site (and I'm not saying I blame her) there is a limited amount she can do in such a forum. If she really wants to clear things up, she has to do that mainly in the books themselves. There's also the fact that I think she sometimes forgets that she knows so much more about the characters than we do. She knows, in that anybody knows, how their minds work, where they are coming from, what has shaped them and why they act the way they do. I think she often forgets that to someone without all that information, the actions and attitudes and motivations of the characters can seem very different than what she intended. Thus a lot of people were blindsided when she made a comment about Sirius having a certain attitude toward people who he saw as social inferiors. To her this was old news. But she forgot that there really wasn't any explanation about that in the books, and thus Sirius' attitude toward Kreacher, which to her was utterly clear, was seen a different way by her readers (i.e. the social inferior aspect of it didn't come through at all). I rather suspect her bafflement about fans and Snape comes, in part, from the same source. She forgets that her readers don't have the information she does. One way to sum this up is, as a drama teacher I once knew used to say, "What you hear come out of your mouth, what THEY hear come out of your mouth, and what ACTUALLY comes out of your mouth are three very different things." Lupinlore From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu May 26 07:16:13 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:16:13 -0000 Subject: Teaching Neville & Blood Prejudice(was:Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129522 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > Betsy: > > As to the possibility of harm to Trevor, I somehow doubt Trevor > would have died. He may have had a few uncomfortable moments, but I > doubt Snape would actually *kill* a students pet. Snape is always > threatening the students with dire consequences, but the worst he's > ever done is given someone a detention. (And he's been one of the > most active faculty member in saving students' lives throughout the > books.) Hickengruendler: I can't believe that I'm writing here against Snape, when I normally defend him, but I just found him really horrible in this scene. I didn't find him fascinating like I do in all of his other scenes, but just downright hated him here. (And I admit, the fact that Neville is my favourite character has probably a lot do with this). Anyway, while I don't think Snape really wanted to kill Trevor, I also think he wouldn't have cared if Trevor had died. He knew that Neville was a horrible potions student, mainly due to his nerves, and it was absolutely unpredictable, which mistake he would make this time. Therefore about every result would have been possible, this includes Trevor's death. I will give you the possibility, that Snape saw that the Potion looked fine and therefore thought it was okay to feed it to Trevor. He might not have done so, if it looked really unusual. But this was not the impression I had while reading the scene, but like I said, I admit that it's possible. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu May 26 07:39:14 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:39:14 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: References: <20050525172614.62424.qmail@web53110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <429609C2.15586.F9D565@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 129523 On 25 May 2005 at 19:47, lupinlore wrote: > Well of course they're wrong, Magda! Chuckle. Do you really think > those of use who believe in child-centered education are going to say > "This system we fight hard for and believe in passionately is no > better than any other?" That's just not human nature. Sorry, but a > lot of us are never going to see Snape's methods as anything but > obviously and terribly wrong, and the Wizarding World as being nothing > but completely in the wrong for allowing him to treat students the way > he does, especially Harry. Sure, but people should at least be aware of their 'prejudices' (I don't mean the term in any derogatory way, but rather in the technical sense of a strongly held belief that colours opinion) as you obviously are from this statement. I am. I'm not a big fan of child centred education largely because my one year of schooling in such an environment almost killed me and left me clinically depressed for a decade, which makes it rather hard for me to see it as a generally good thing (-8 (Although I have to say I've just done three weeks of teaching practice in a very child centred school - one that is renowned for it, actually, and it seemed to work very well there). The thing is, though, whether child centred education is better or worse - the reality is, it doesn't seem to exist in the wizarding world. McGonnagall is not a child centred teacher. Nor is Sprout. Nor is Flitwick. Nor is Trelawney. So, whether it's a good idea or not, I find it hard to single out Snape for criticism - because in this regard, none of the 'better' teachers are doing it either. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From buffyeton at yahoo.com Thu May 26 08:14:40 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:14:40 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129524 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > If you believe the answer to a question is a new character, > write "new character" *and* describe relationships to old characters > or characteristics of new character for full credit. > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Seamus > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) The Half-Blood Prince is an ancestor of Prince Arthur. He will be a new character who is either a grown up, or a new pupil at Hogwarts. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) She transfered some of her powers to Harry by saving him. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Someone new whom we haven't even heard of yet. A wizard not a witch. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Someone new we haven't heard of, or whom has just been slightly mentioned. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ms. Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? A Pensive that once belonged to Harry's Mum. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Definitely. He has to to become an Auror. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? He will want to, but won't have a good enough OWL grade. Snape will be persuaded to let him into the class late though. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? All of them. > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. > 1. Ron and Hermione will finally get it together and become a couple. 2. Snape's secret of what he does for the Order will be revealed, and Harry will be surprised by what it is. 3. Harry will find a way to communicate with Sirius. 4. Hogwarts will be completely divided over who is or will become a DE and who will be on the white caps side. From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Thu May 26 03:00:19 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Wed, 25 May 2005 23:00:19 -0400 Subject: Patronus=Animagus? / Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42953BC3.3010703@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129525 Can anyone point to something definitive in canon stating that one's patronus and animagus forms are the same? I can't recall it, and need to know.... Thanks! _________________________ Angie: > Seems like there is a line from one of the books, as part of the > narrative, that says so something like, for nothing was Harry the > youngest Quidditch player in a century; he had a knack for seeing > things others didn't." Is that because of his glasses or in > spite of them? Perhaps it has to do with attention to detail and not visual acuity? Those are two entirely different qualities. Michelle From finwitch at yahoo.com Thu May 26 08:26:44 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 08:26:44 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129526 Alisha: > > There is one other alternative that I have been mulling over and > rather like. > > Once upon a time there was an English king (I forget which one. > I think Henry VIII), who was frustrated with the Archbishop of > Canterbury (actually a good friend of his). One night at dinner, > the king jokingly said, "Who will rid me of this meddlesome > priest?" Two drunken knights overheard the king and decided to > take that as an order from him to kill the Archbishop. When the > king found out, he was furious and ordered the execution of the knights. Voila. The king remains blameless and is rid of his problematic friend. > > What if DD mentions in an Order meeting that Kreacher poses a > security problem and one of the members (Snape, Mad-Eye, even > Arthur) decides this is carte blanche to kill the meddlesome elf? Finwitch: That could be Snape doing it - by means of poison, of course. A poison that is lethal only to house-elves. (Harry could react by vomiting/diarhoea/magical disease? to that poison ... otherwise Harry probably wouldn't know anything about it). Another alternative is an *accident* - say Kreacher was (mistakenly by Tonks or due to an experiment of Weasley twins) in a locked closet with Remus during full moon... (I've read this in some fanfic - Remus told Harry about it). Not so sure if a werewolf must attack a house-elf (they only hunt humans?) which is what Weasley twins would experiment on. (Animagi are safe, what about house-elves???) That'd get Remus off (he can't help it) and as of the Twins - well, they didn't really MEAN Kreacher to be ripped to pieces, but of all elves, he's the one who was good riddance... Or even some Tasteless Toffee (they'd have to experiment to see if Remus keeps his mind if that mixes with the Wolfsbane-potion of Snape's... or maybe the twins made it and it required testing...). But all put Kreacher with Remus somewhere. Kreacher might even have commited suicide as it is... OR, just to add the excitement and darkness: He's gone to Narcissa Malfoy - telling her everything he knows about the order... OR... to further your 'taken order' - Dobby hears Harry mutter about Kreacher or some such, and *DOBBY* kills Kreacher. And I think that as of Kreacher's choices/ethics, it's something that really is best judged by another house-elf, wouldn't you say? And even Hermione can't complain if one house-elf kills another, can she? Finwitch From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu May 26 10:01:07 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:01:07 -0000 Subject: Teaching Occlumency--was:Almost anyone & Rampant Ingratitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129527 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Amanda Geist" wrote: > Amiable Dorsai: > > > > Well, I don't know who would be a better authority than the > >person it was actually happening to. > > I have heard this argued as the Definitive And Discussion-Ending > Answer several times before, I *know* I have answered before, too, > but I can't remember which thread. > > Basically, I totally disagree. Harry is a *terrible* judge of what's > going on, precisely because he cannot be an objective observer. In > fact, his subjectivity is what makes him unable to accept the > objectivity of others?whether he trusts them (Dumbledore, Hermione, > etc.) or not (Snape). No one who is under stress or pressure, or any > sort of influence, is a good judge of themselves. >Carol adds (To a good point from Potioncat): >Not to mention that on his first encounter with Snape, he thought it >was Snape who was making his scar hurt. (Post hoc ergo propter hoc >fallacy.) I think something similar but more complex is happening >during the occlumency lessons. Harry's own desire to complete the >dream opens him up to Voldemort. You are, all of you, correct. Correlation is not causation, and Harry's opinion on this subject must be taken with a grain of salt. Thank you, you've opened up my thinking on the subject. A question, then: Suppose that Snape's method of teaching Occlumency is the (or at least a) correct, accepted procedure. Now suppose that Harry's coach had been someone else, say, Flitwick, and he approached teaching Harry the subject in precisely the same manner. What result would you expect? Amiable Dorsai From yutu75es at yahoo.es Thu May 26 10:09:17 2005 From: yutu75es at yahoo.es (yutu75es) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 10:09:17 -0000 Subject: More Apparating Lessons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129528 "Tonks" wrote: > Reading all of the discussion on Apparating I have come to this > conclusion. It is like Drivers Ed for Muggles. It is > studied as an extra subject after school hours or on a Saturday. Fridwulfa now: Drivers Ed is studied as an extra subject after school hours in USA, that doesn't mean it works the same way in the WW. We don't have drivers Ed in Spain, where you can't get your drivers license 'till you're 18 and out of school and I don't know how it works in the UK. Could someone enlighten me on this, please? Cheers, Fridwulfa. From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu May 26 11:01:05 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:01:05 -0000 Subject: Teaching Neville & Blood Prejudice(was:Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Amiable Dorsai: > >No difference between the two cases--Neville was no more told to do > it "on his own" in this instance than in the other, nor, if we are > to engage in the sort of logic chopping you claim Snape is playing > at, did he tell Hermione not to help him--"I don't remember asking > you to show off, Miss Granger,"-- was all he said. Hermione didn't > show off; she helped Neville quietly and without drawing attention > to herself.< > > Betsy: > Right, you force me to go to the books . > It would take a major twist of logic indeed to presume that Snape > actually *does* want Hermione to "help" Neville. (And I don't > recall claiming Snape is not logical.) To make it even clearer that > Snape wishes Neville to continue on his own, Snape assigns him a > mini-exam. I don't think that Snape wanted Hermione to help, don't think so at all. But he punished Harry for *not* assisting Neville when Harry had no more reason to believe Snape wanted that than Hermione did. He's given his students a no-win situation. Suppose that Harry *had* paid attention to a cauldron not his own, and had corrected Neville's error in Snape's hearing. Do you believe that his response would have been something along the lines of "Good show, Potter--5 points to Gryffindor!"? Amiable Dorsai From Snarryfan at aol.com Thu May 26 11:29:34 2005 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:29:34 -0000 Subject: Teaching Occlumency--was:Almost anyone & Rampant Ingratitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129530 > > Amiable Dorsai: > A question, then: Suppose that Snape's method of teaching Occlumency > is the (or at least a) correct, accepted procedure. Now suppose that > Harry's coach had been someone else, say, Flitwick, and he approached > teaching Harry the subject in precisely the same manner. > > What result would you expect? > Well, there's still one restrain: Harry's will to learn it. And I don't if Flitwick would managed where DD, Remus and Hermione failed. I can't remember, but did *Sirius* said to Harry to work? Christelle From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu May 26 11:41:41 2005 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:41:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Teaching Occlumency--was:Almost anyone & Rampant Ingratitude In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050526114141.44103.qmail@web86206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129531 --- amiabledorsai wrote: > > A question, then: Suppose that Snape's method of > teaching Occlumency > is the (or at least a) correct, accepted procedure. > Now suppose that > Harry's coach had been someone else, say, Flitwick, > and he approached > teaching Harry the subject in precisely the same > manner. > > What result would you expect? It would be a bit better, granted. First of all Harry would not feel such an antagonism, and second - Sirius would not have sabotaged his attitude from the start. But another teacher still would not be allowed to give him the full explanation of the reasons for the lessons, so the motivation for the studying would still be very low. So the end result would've been probably the same - Harry's curiousity about that door was so much stronger than his good sense. Such as it is. Irene ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From joj at rochester.rr.com Thu May 26 12:33:53 2005 From: joj at rochester.rr.com (coolbeans3131) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 12:33:53 -0000 Subject: In Support of Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129532 wrote: > Quote from Time Magazine, 2000 in which JK says: "Mostly > they [kids] are really worried about Ron. As if I'm going to kill Harry's best friend. What I find interesting is only once has > anyone said to me, "Don't kill Hermione," and that was after a reading when I said no one's ever worried about her... > They see her as someone who is not vulnerable, but I see her as > someone who does have quite a lot of vulnerability in her > personality" > > > I find that I find it quite surprising that how people can > NOT care about the second best friend of Harry. Joj writes: I didn't even realize how much I liked Hermione until my first reading of OotP. I was so scared she was going to be the one to die. I'm still quite worried about her. I think Malfoy's going to stop being an annoying school bully and turn into a real threat. I also think he's going to do something dreadful to Hermione. Partly because of how he feels about bloodlines and partly to get to Harry. JKR really strenghthened to friendship between H/H in OotP. It could have to do with shipping, but I think it's for a bigger reason. I'm quite worried for our favorite bookworm Joj From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu May 26 13:24:25 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:24:25 -0000 Subject: Teaching Neville & Blood Prejudice(was:Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting...) In-Reply-To: <20050525174349.83628.qmail@web53105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > By telling Neville exactly what to do, Hermione prevents Neville > > from learning on his own, reinforces Neville's belief that he > > can't do potions and gets in the way of Snape's efforts to get > > through to a troubled student. Hermione was trying to be nice, > > but she acted as an enabler and in the end did Neville no favors. > If Hermoine really wanted to help Neville, she'd talk to him after > class or help with his homework or try to talk up his confidence > before class. Instead she gets him over the immediate hump and then > walks away, leaving him no better off. Well, no. Hermione has been tutoring Neville some time. It's mentioned it in GoF as a reason why he asked her to the ball. And Neville almost certainly profits more from simply being told how to do it correctly than from a threat to kill his pet if he does it wrong. Amiable Dorsai From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 26 13:27:39 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:27:39 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129534 Lupinlore: > I have never understood the idea that McGonagall respects Snape > (beyond the demands of her profession) or regards him with anything > other than disdain. The idea that she would be friends with someone > who abuses the members of her own house is utterly ludicrous. Pippin: Now this one made me laugh. Don't you see that McGonagall is just an older, wiser version of Snape? It's true we've never seen her gratuitously insult a student, but then we've never seen her with a student who gets on her nerves the way, oh, Sybil Trelawney does. Tripe, anyone? She's got a Snapish habit of making a public example out of the kid she considers the smartest, and she humiliates Neville in front of teachers and students from other Houses, too. Did she have to give him the Remembrall in front of the whole school? All you can say is that McGonagall is fairer (and that's saying a lot) but that has come with the years. She's still sniffling over the way she treated Peter Pettigrew, and she let the Marauders get away with stuff that Draco and his gang haven't contemplated in their wildest dreams. Child-centered education? She'd sooner put the inmates in charge of St. Mungo's. Minerva added a hundred points to a punishment when a child objected to it. She'd never stoop to threaten a toad, she just sent the kids themselves into mortal peril. And she let an injured child run off instead of seeing bounced!Draco to the hospital wing. To judge her educational philosophy by her actions, children are at school to learn to be adults, and the sooner they grow up, the better. Oh, and the shady past? I'm sure there's a reason her student days overlap with Riddle's. Could she have been one of those intimate friends young Tom was boasting about? We know she was a Gryffindor. But there's lots of reasons to think she'd have done well in Slytherin. And she'd have to have a helluva lot of brass to admonish Snape for the way he treats his students, after the way she let him be treated when he was one. Pippin From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 26 13:33:22 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 06:33:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050526133322.43429.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129535 Steve wrote: We could just as easily speculate that any poll found at the "Harry Potter for Grownups" group, where people are deeply intellectual and extremely knowledgable, and respresent the combined massive intellect of the entire Harry Potter fan world, are 'in the know' and are certainly correct in their prediction. As a matter of fact, that very character always come in highly rated in our death predictions. Perhaps tommorrow, The Mirror will indicate that we have 'leaked' the secret. ****************** Good point. And thanks for letting me know the O.G. source. That's all I have on this subject. I am still working on my own "predictions" for our contest! Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu May 26 13:47:55 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:47:55 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > Everyone knew that someone at Hogwarts had it in for Harry, Everyone except Snape, apparently. >From Gobblet of Fire: "It's no one's fault but Potter's, Karkaroff," said Snape softly. His black eyes were alight with malice. "Don't go blaming Dumbledore for Potter's determination to break rules. He has been crossing lines ever since he arrived here -" > Dumbledore and his allies needed to know whether Harry had in fact > been the burglar, and they also needed to be sure that, if so, he > didn't do it again. Snape's threat to use veritaserum was probably > aimed at bringing the truth to the forefront of Harry's mind, where > it could be detected by legilimency. But it wouldn't hurt for Harry > to know that if he was stealing things from Snape's office, it > would be regarded seriously. I'm sorry, but this is laughable. If Snape wanted to bring the truth to the forefront of Harry's mind, a simple accusation would have done just as well. We're getting some distance from my original point, which was that Snape's threat to use Veritaserum illegally set a bad example for Harry. Snape makes a big deal of Harry's disregard for rules, then turns around and implies that it's OK if he, himself does the same. Do as I say, not do as I do. Amiable Dorsai From sherriola at earthlink.net Thu May 26 14:10:05 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 07:10:05 -0700 Subject: Hermione cheating over Trevor? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c561fc$9e354030$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 129537 Oh my. I usually purposely stay out of Snape debates, because I feel kind of mixed feelings about him. I see him from the perspective of the objective reader, but I also see him from the objective of the kids. I'm not sure what child centered education is, as was mentioned in this debate several times, but then, I graduated high school in the 70's. However, I wanted to discuss the idea that Hermione was cheating by helping Neville in the Trevor incident. Sometimes, I'm amazed at the amount of people who will fiercely defend Snape, even over this incident or the time with Hermione's accidental hex and her teeth, and yet expect the children to rise to the level of mature adult behavior and logic about Snape. In the Trevor potion incident, it has been said that Hermione was cheating by helping Neville. But let's put ourselves in her place. These were kids, Hermione just 14, the others somewhere between 13 and 14. All they know of Snape's behavior toward them is that he is routinely nasty and unfair to Gryffindor students and lets Slytherin get away with anything. Again, I'm trying to think from the kids point of view. Remember, at this point, they have no idea that Snape may be working for the order, a spy for Dumbledore. Voldemort has not returned to his body yet. They don't know about the order yet. They are kids. So, here we are in class, and our classmate who is struggling in all his classes, but who has a particularly difficult time with Snape has just had Snape threaten to poison his pet. His PET! I reach down to my guide dog as I write this and wonder where my cat is. I can't imagine that any kind hearted student wouldn't have also tried to help, if he or she knew how and was close enough. If I was in a chemistry class, in which students brought small pets, and the teacher threatened to poison someone's pet, I don't think I'd stop to wonder if helping would be cheating. All I'd think of would be helping that student so the pet wouldn't become sick or die. That's all I think Hermione was doing. I don't see it as a matter of cheating; I see it as an example of Hermione's compassion. Maybe, it wasn't the right way, but it was her heart that was engaged. She had no way of knowing if Snape would or would not have followed through on his threat. In fact, we, the readers, have no way of knowing. Children of that age just don't think logically enough to consider that he might have been bluffing. In fact, I don't know that anyone could be that sure, when it is someone's living breathing beloved pet. I think I'd test the potion before I'd let it be given to my animals! I don't think Snape is a bad man, and I have defended his loyalty to Dumbledore, but he certainly has created an atmosphere and allowed an image of himself in classes that would cause kids to believe he would do exactly what he threatened. Would he make the same threat to Crabbe or Goyle? I highly doubt it. Hermione's action in helping was a caring gesture. She's not always the best at compassion, but I think this is one of her compassionate moments. i give her points for that. Sherry From k.coble at comcast.net Thu May 26 14:13:59 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (mycropht33) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:13:59 -0000 Subject: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: <20050526133322.43429.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > Steve wrote: > We could just as easily speculate that any poll found at the "Harry > Potter for Grownups" group, where people are deeply intellectual and > extremely knowledgable, and respresent the combined massive intellect of the entire Harry Potter fan world, are 'in the know' and are certainly correct in their prediction. As a matter of fact, that very character always come in highly rated in our death predictions. Perhaps tommorrow, The Mirror will indicate that we have 'leaked' the secret. > > ****************** > Good point. And thanks for letting me know the O.G. source. That's all I have on this subject. I am still working on my own "predictions" for our contest! > > > > > Theotokos > Statistically speaking, since there is an extremely finite number of characters up for consideration, and there are many people on this group making many predictions, some of them will be right. That doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who predicts this death accurately is an intellectual giant. I personally have been a member of this group a long time, and have lurked for almost 2 years now (or better...can't even remember when I joined.) I am getting really tired of people using their "predictions" as some sort of flexing of intellectual muscle. An educated guess is an educated guess. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. Sorry for coming off cranky. It's just been a sore point for me for awhile now. As far as the article goes, and the possible spoilers contained therein, I'm strongly inclined to believe it. Why? Well, let me flex some intellectual muscle and take a guess of mine own.... You are a punter working in a printers or a bookbindery for not much scratch at all. You like to bet as a hobby, and you know that bookmakers are running lines on everything these days. You figure, hey, take a peek and place fifty quid on a sure thing. That's not a leak, is it? Actually, it's not a leak at all. In fact, you have a vested interest in NOT leaking the information to anybody because the longer the odds are, the better. If you don't tell anybody, and the odds are in your favour, you could net a pretty penny. HOWEVER, if you do tell people, the line on the character tightens and you actually stand to lose a fair amount of potential winnings. A true leak, such as the one punishable by the $3,000,000, is stealing pages and selling them to the Daily Mirror. Taking a peak and running a flutter on that sure thing, then bragging to your mates down the pub about it is not really a leak per se, in the mind of your average working class Yorkshireman. From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 26 14:34:50 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:34:50 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129539 Pippin: > > Everyone knew that someone at Hogwarts had it in for Harry, Amiable Dorsai: > Everyone except Snape, apparently. > > From Gobblet of Fire: > > "It's no one's fault but Potter's, Karkaroff," said Snape > softly. His black eyes were alight with malice. "Don't go blaming > Dumbledore for Potter's determination to break rules. He has been > crossing lines ever since he arrived here -" Pippin: That was in the fall, before the Dark Mark had made its unwelcome reappearance on Snape's arm. We know he reported it to Dumbledore. As Dumbledore said, you don't need a pensieve to make the connection between that and Harry Potter. Pippin: > > Dumbledore and his allies needed to know whether Harry had in fact been the burglar, and they also needed to be sure that, if so, he didn't do it again. Snape's threat to use veritaserum was probably aimed at bringing the truth to the forefront of Harry's mind, where it could be detected by legilimency. But it wouldn't hurt for Harry to know that if he was stealing things from Snape's office, it would be regarded seriously. Amiable Dorsai: > I'm sorry, but this is laughable. If Snape wanted to bring the truth to the forefront of Harry's mind, a simple accusation would have done just as well. Pippin: Read it again. It's too long a passage to quote here, but Snape makes a simple accusation, which Harry denies, truthfully enough, since he didn't break into the office. But Harry thinks Snape is talking about the theft of the Boomslang Skin two years before (note how deftly Rowling drops the clue that someone is using polyjuice *now*). So Harry says he doesn't know what Snape is talking about and *thinks* he is lying. That has got be a confusing situation for a legilimens. It's then that Snape threatens him with veritaserum. He seems to be satisfied with what he found out, since he lets Harry turn away. Note that he doesn't question Harry about the goblet. He's accepted that Harry didn't put his name in. It's not a bad example for Harry. In the first place Harry would never think anything was allowable just because Snape thought he could get away with it, and in the second place Harry needed to be warned about what an unscrupulous wizard with veritaserum at his disposal might do. Snape is playing bad cop, as usual to good effect. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Thu May 26 15:07:04 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:07:04 -0000 Subject: Teaching Occlumency--was:Almost anyone & Rampant Ingratitude In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amiabledorsai" wrote: > A question, then: Suppose that Snape's method of teaching Occlumency is the (or at least a) correct, accepted procedure. Now suppose that Harry's coach had been someone else, say, Flitwick, and he approached teaching Harry the subject in precisely the same manner. > > What result would you expect? Pippin: Harry would have learned occlumency, and it would have been disastrous. He would still have gone to the Ministry on the belief that Sirius was being held there, even if Voldemort had informed him by owl. Sirius would still have gone to rescue Harry and still have died. Harry would have used occlumency to block the pain, and Voldemort would have triumphantly possessed him. "The usual rules do not seem to apply with you, Potter." The ancient spells and charms guarding the mental safety of those at Hogwarts had no effect on the scar connection -- it worked just as well as at Privet Drive. There is no reason to think occlumency would have blocked it either...that was a theory of Dumbledore's and it seems to have been wrong. Pippin From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Thu May 26 15:14:14 2005 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 15:14:14 -0000 Subject: MAGIC TUMBLE DRYER (was: ANTIVIRUS - humble attempt of building a ship) In-Reply-To: <20050519233822.92029.qmail@web32605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Mira wrote: > I thought a while ago that one source of inspiration, > probably secondary, for the plot of each book might be > the illustration of one deadly sin versus one cardinal > virtue. It is only now that I'll take the time to > elaborate on the idea. I know there are some very > interesting essays in the Files section relative to > this subject, but they seem to me more general rather > than about the HP world specifically. I haven't seen a > similar theory yet, but I don't doubt that somebody > has thought of it before, which is why I'll call it, > for the time being, ANachronical Theory about > Ineffable VIRtues and Ugly Sins (ANTIVIRUS). > I have wondered myself about the themes of each of the HP books, but lately I have been a little too busy rewriting my KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory to get around to writing a detailed post on the subject. I agree wholeheartedly with your assumption that the HP books are following a predetermined list of themes, might I suggest though that it is not the Seven Deadly Sins or their opposite virtues, but instead the Seven Heavenly Virtues. For those of you who may have been slightly confused by the above sentence, a short overview of Christian virtues: The Cardinal Virtues: Prudence, Temperance, Courage, Justice. Originally proposed by Plato and other classical Greek philosophers, later adopted by the Christian church, you don't have to be a follower of the Christian church to achieve these virtues. The Theological Virtues: Love, Hope, Faith. As defined in the New Testament by St. Paul as well as in other writings of the early Christian Church, unfortunately for those who aren't followers of the Christian church baptism is required to achieve these virtues. The Seven Heavenly Virtues (sometimes *also* called the Cardinal Virtues): Faith, Hope, Charity, Fortitude, Justice, Temperance, Prudence. A combination of the Cardinal Virtues and the Theological Virtues. Compiled in conjunction with the Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Deadly Sins guarantee a one-way trip to Hell the Heavenly Virtues guarantee you a place in Heaven. Note that Love has been replaced here by Charity due to a bit of confusion over the translation of the word `caritas'. The Seven Contrary Virtues: Humility, Kindness, Abstinence, Chastity, Patience, Liberality, Diligence. Compiled at a later date, the direct opposites of the Seven Deadly Sins, practising these virtues is supposed to protect you from the temptations of their opposite sins: Humility from Pride, Kindness from Envy, Abstinence from Gluttony, Chastity from Lust, Patience from Wrath, Liberality from Greed, Diligence from Sloth. Now I'm convinced that each Harry Potter book has one of the Seven Heavenly Virtues as its main theme. After struggling with this virtue for most of the book Harry then shows to have truly mastered this virtue at the end of the book: Book 1: Temperance (also associated with: moderation, restraint, self- mastery, frugality, sobriety) Vs. desire. At the start of the book Harry succumbs to desire when he buys one of everything from the witch pushing the food trolley. Harry again succumbs to desire when he discovers the Mirror of Erised and how it shows his parents and the rest of his family, and it is only with great difficulty that Harry then eventually is able to keep from looking for the mirror again. Harry then finally conquers his desires and shows true temperance when he is able to get the Philosopher's Stone out of the Mirror of Erised. Book 2: Faith (also associated with: belief, trust, fidelity, loyalty, conviction) Vs. doubt At the start of the book Harry doubts his friends and whether he really belongs in the wizarding world. And when Harry finds out he can speak Parseltongue he has doubts about being the heir of Slytherin and whether or not he belongs in Griffindor. Harry then finally conquers his doubts and shows true faith when he proclaims in the Chamber of Secrets that Dumbledore has not completely left Hogwarts. Book 3: Justice (also associated with: impartiality, fairness, equity, rightness, dispassion) Vs. wrath At the start of the book Harry is not able to control his wrath when aunt Marge makes derogatory remarks about Harry's parents. And Harry again feels wrath when he finds out that it was Sirius who betrayed his parents, but when Harry then gets a chance to avenge his parents' deaths in the Shrieking Shack he doesn't do anything. Harry then finally conquers his wrath and shows true justice when he stands up for Peter Pettigrew. Book 4: Fortitude (also associated with: strength, courage, endurance, resoluteness) Vs. irresoluteness At the start of the book Harry is irresolute when he succumbs to the influences of the Veela at the Quidditch World Cup. Harry again is irresolute when he fails to learn to summoning charm and keeps putting of work on the second task. Harry then finally conquers his irresoluteness and shows true fortitude when his wand connects with Voldemort's wand and he is able to hold on and drive the beads of light back towards Voldemort. Book 5: Hope (also associated with: desire, belief, reliance, expectation) Vs. disillusionment At the start of the book Harry is disillusioned by the lack of news in his friends' letters and the Daily Prophet. And Harry has to deal with more disillusionment when it turns out that Hogwarts is not save from the influences of the outside world, and when Dumbledore is suddenly a lot less open and fatherly towards Harry. On top of this Harry also finds out that his role as the hero who neatly solves everything isn't always that simple. Harry then finally conquers his disillusionment and shows true hope when he thinks of being with Sirius as Voldemort possesses and tries to kill him in the MoM. Book 6: Prudence (also associated with wisdom, vigilance, carefulness, thoughtfulness, discretion) Vs. rashness/stupidity Be prepared for Harry to act rash and stupidly for a large part of HBP, only to redeem himself at the very end of the book where he will show true prudence, presumably while fighting with Voldemort. Book 7: Charity/Love (also associated with: generosity, benevolence, helpfulness, mercy) Vs. selfishness/hate. Be prepared for Harry to act selfish for a large part of the book, only to redeem himself at the very end of the book where he will show true charity by either being merciful towards Voldemort or by sacrificing himself for the good of the wizarding world. I personally think though that JKR might go with the original meaning of the word: love. In which case, be prepared for Harry to be filled with hate for a large part of the book, only to redeem himself at the very end of the book where he will show true love. As it says in the New Testament: "And now for these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." ? First Corinthians, Chapter 13. While I'm at it, might I also suggest a different name for the theory: MAGIC TUMBLE DRYER - Meticulous Analysis Generates Interesting Conclusion: Themes Underlying Magical Books Lead Evil Doing Readers to Yield to Ecclesiastic Righteousness. Not the first magic household appliance to grace to shores of TBAY I believe. It doesn't float too well, but on the other hand it does dry your clothes. -Maus If you actually belief the KITTENS & RAINBOWS theory, the part of Voldemort inside Harry will have experienced each of these virtues by the end of the seventh book, and experiencing these virtues - in particular the virtue of love - will then be what makes the part of Voldemort inside Harry truly alive again. And thereby also what eventually makes Voldemort truly alive again. The fact that the Heavenly Virtues were intended as a way to ensure your place in heaven could also be interpreted as supporting evidence that Harry at the end of the seventh book will exchange the temporary for the eternal. Come to the KITTENS & RAINBOWS website: http://home.hccnet.nl/p.s.dekker/HPtheory.html From theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net Thu May 26 16:34:33 2005 From: theotokos_8679 at sbcglobal.net (theotokos) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 09:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050526163433.46040.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129542 Steve: > We could just as easily speculate that any poll found at the "Harry Potter for Grownups" group, where people are deeply intellectual and extremely knowledgable, and respresent the combined massive intellect of the entire Harry Potter fan world, are 'in the know' and are certainly correct in their prediction. As a matter of fact, that very character always come in highly rated in our death predictions. Perhaps tommorrow, The Mirror will indicate that we have 'leaked' the secret. > > ****************** Theotokos: > Good point. And thanks for letting me know the O.G. source. That's all I have on this subject. I am still working on my own "predictions" for our contest! mycropht33 wrote: [snip intellectual giant debate. :-)] As far as the article goes, and the possible spoilers contained therein, I'm strongly inclined to believe it. You are a punter working in a printers or a bookbindery for not much scratch at all. You like to bet as a hobby, and you know that bookmakers are running lines on everything these days. You figure, hey, take a peek and place fifty quid on a sure thing. That's not a leak, is it? Actually, it's not a leak at all. [snip potential winnings] A true leak, such as the one punishable by the $3,000,000, is stealing pages and selling them to the Daily Mirror. Taking a peak and running a flutter on that sure thing, then bragging to your mates down the pub about it is not really a leak per se, in the mind of your average working class Yorkshireman. ************************** also a good point and not just for the average working class Yorkshireman. Also seems likely to me. Theotokos [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu May 26 18:28:38 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 11:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Education was Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050526182838.91968.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129543 > Lupinlore wrote: > Well of course they're wrong, Magda! Chuckle. Do you really > think those of use who believe in child-centered education are > going to say "This system we fight hard for and believe in > passionately is no better than any other?" That's just not > human nature. Sorry, but a lot of us are never going to see > Snape's methods as anything but obviously and terribly wrong, > and the Wizarding World as being nothing but completely in the > wrong for allowing him to treat students the way he does, > especially Harry. Well, if you're not going to "see Snape's methods as anything other but obviously wrong...", why bother to ask the question in the first place? I mean, if you're not interested in discussion, is this just an excuse to tell other posters they're wrong about something? Somehow that's not what I thought this list was for. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu May 26 18:36:07 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:36:07 -0000 Subject: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mycropht33" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos wrote: > > Steve wrote: > > We could just as easily speculate that any poll found at the > > "Harry Potter for Grownups" group, where people are deeply > > intellectual and extremely knowledgable, and respresent the > > combined massive intellect of the entire Harry Potter fan world, > > are 'in the know' and are certainly correct in their prediction. > > As a matter of fact, that very character always come in highly > > rated in our death predictions. Perhaps tommorrow, The Mirror will > > indicate that we have 'leaked' the secret. > > > > ****************** > mycropht33: > > ... I am getting really tired of people using their "predictions" as > some sort of flexing of intellectual muscle. An educated guess is an > educated guess. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. > > Sorry for coming off cranky. It's just been a sore point for me for > awhile now. > bboyminn: You do understand that that entire paragraph was intended as a humorous attempt to point out the absurdity of lending any weight to anyone's predictions or any 'leaks'? I have to wonder if you even read the original post (#129500) because you seemed to have missed the context of my statement. I pointed out that this isn't even a story about a 'leak'. It's a non-story in which someone speculated that there might have been a leak because of a betting trend in a particular area. A betting trend that is probably the most obvious and predictable choice of any of the potential characters. A betting trend that is so obvious that it is a cliche. Further, a figurative bet that has been placed, or at least discussed by virtually every person in every HP group in the world. Really, a complete non-story. In addition, I think the most logical explanation is the one I gave. People bet on the most obvious character and others assumed that because of where these people live that they had inside information, so even more started betting on the same character, and it started a cascade of betting based on nothing more than the blind leading the blind, or perhaps the foolish and unimaginative leading the equally foolish and unimaginative. I still say this is a complete non-story, nothing more that typcial baseless inflamed headlines and speculation by a tabloid newspaper. Also, keep in mind that since we are talking about 700 pages it would have taken more than 'a peek' for anyone to have figured out who died in the book. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu May 26 19:06:07 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:06:07 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129545 Alisha asked: > What if DD mentions in an Order meeting that Kreacher poses a > security problem and one of the members (Snape, Mad-Eye, even > Arthur) decides this is carte blanche to kill the meddlesome elf? Finwitch suggested: > OR... to further your 'taken order' -Dobby hears Harry mutter about > Kreacher or some such, and *DOBBY* kills Kreacher. And I think that > as of Kreacher's choices/ethics, it's something that really is best > judged by another house-elf, wouldn't you say? And even Hermione > can't complain if one house-elf kills another, can she? Sophierom now: I love it! This makes me wonder what house-elves would consider "justice". We've seen a little bit of how the larger house-elf community works in the kitchens of Hogwarts. Dobby is considered odd (to say the least) for his desire to work for pay. Yet, as far as we know, he takes great pride in his work. On the other hand, Winky's obsessive devotion to her old master, Crouch, is actually problematic within the community, for it keeps her from doing her work at Hogwarts. In this respect, Kreacher is quite a bit like Winky. His devotion for the dead Mrs. Black keeps him from serving Sirius well; indeed, it leads to Kreacher's willingness to betray his master. Perhaps if Dobby doesn't off Kreacher for the sake of his dear Harry Potter, then the other house-elves might want to see Kreacher punished; they might consider Kreacher a traitor to their kind for his betrayal of Sirius. I'd love to see the house-elves play a role in the series finale; it would be sweet justice, indeed, if the Hogwarts' house-elves considered Kreacher an enemy because he was too good a servant to Mrs. Black, therefore making him a horrible servant to his master (and to the house-elf code of duty and work?). There certainly seems to be a lesson in the house-elf behavior; service is admirable, but fanatic, unseeing devotion is pathetic at best (Winky) and hateful (Kreacher) at worst. It seems, then, that house-elves have to temper their devotion to a master (Winky/Crouch, Kreacher/Mrs. Black) with a dedication to service. Wouldn't it be ironic if Dobby, the house-elf whom Ron thinks of as unnatural, is actually the model house-elf? After all, of the three house-elves we've gotten to know, Dobby is actually the best servant. Sophie, who apologizes for the lack of specific references to canon here; I'm away from my books at the moment (ahh! how can I survive? ;-D) From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 26 19:05:30 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:05:30 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129546 > > There is one other alternative that I have been mulling over and > rather like. > > Once upon a time there was an English king (I forget which one. > I think Henry VIII), who was frustrated with the Archbishop of > Canterbury (actually a good friend of his). One night at dinner, > the king jokingly said, "Who will rid me of this meddlesome > priest?" Two drunken knights overheard the king and decided to > take that as an order from him to kill the Archbishop. When the > king found out, he was furious and ordered the execution of the knights. Voila. The king remains blameless and is rid of his problematic friend. > > What if DD mentions in an Order meeting that Kreacher poses a > security problem and one of the members (Snape, Mad-Eye, even > Arthur) decides this is carte blanche to kill the meddlesome elf? > > -Alisha I take it you are talking about Thomas Becket, in which case the king would be Henry II. Only a few centuries earlier, but no matter. What does matter however that this workable solution sounds rather disgusting. I wouldn't want to be in the Order of Phoenix if it would mean stooping to such sordid tactics. And I strongly suspect neither would Harry. a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Thu May 26 19:37:50 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 19:37:50 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129547 > Sophierom: > > I love it! This makes me wonder what house-elves would consider > "justice". a_svirn: Slaves and justice do not belong to the same sentence. I seriously doubt that such word can be found in elivish-English pidgin vocabulary or that the concept would make any sense for someone who's existence defies the very idea of justice. > Sophierom: After all, of the > three house-elves we've gotten to know, Dobby is actually the best > servant. > > a_svirn: You are overlooking the fact that Dobby is no longer a servant. From lhuntley at fandm.edu Thu May 26 20:00:00 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:00:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129548 Alisha: > Once upon a time there was an English king (I forget which one. > I think Henry VIII), who was frustrated with the Archbishop of > Canterbury (actually a good friend of his). One night at dinner, > the king jokingly said, "Who will rid me of this meddlesome > priest?" Two drunken knights overheard the king and decided to > take that as an order from him to kill the Archbishop. When the > king found out, he was furious and ordered the execution of the > knights. Voila. The king remains blameless and is rid of his > problematic friend. > > What if DD mentions in an Order meeting that Kreacher poses a > security problem and one of the members (Snape, Mad-Eye, even > Arthur) decides this is carte blanche to kill the meddlesome elf? You realize that the continuation of this scenario would be Dumbledore ordering the execution of Snape? Ooo, it's a two-for-one deal, then! ^_~ Laura (who makes this comment in jest, and who would not *really* enjoy seeing Severus executed. Much.) P. S. I actually agree with a_svirn. As much as I think that Kreacher deserves some type of punishment (perhaps from his own kind), I would think *very* poorly of the Order if this were to happen. From jmrazo at hotmail.com Thu May 26 20:04:57 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:04:57 -0000 Subject: Hermione cheating over Trevor? In-Reply-To: <002501c561fc$9e354030$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sherry Gomes" > > Sometimes, I'm amazed at the amount of people who will fiercely defend > Snape, even over this incident or the time with Hermione's accidental hex > and her teeth, and yet expect the children to rise to the level of mature > adult behavior and logic about Snape. In the Trevor potion incident, it has > been said that Hermione was cheating by helping Neville. But let's put > ourselves in her place. These were kids, Hermione just 14, the others > somewhere between 13 and 14. All they know of Snape's behavior toward them > is that he is routinely nasty and unfair to Gryffindor students and lets > Slytherin get away with anything. Again, I'm trying to think from the kids > point of view. Remember, at this point, they have no idea that Snape may be > working for the order, a spy for Dumbledore. Voldemort has not returned to > his body yet. They don't know about the order yet. They are kids. I agree with you one thousand percent Sherry. Hermione doesn't strike me as the type who would cheat for someone in ordinary circumstances. She thinks too highly of school for that. But if you asked her about that situation, I bet she would argue that her moral imperative was to help Neville so his toad wouldn't be subject to a badly made potion over making sure he learned how to do the potion right. She probably wouldn't have helped Nev to the extent she did had Snape not made the threat. I don't consider what Hermione did cheating, I consider it an act of compassion. regardless of what Snape was trying to accomplish, threatening Neville's pet was the wrong way to do it, and Hermione was in the right by ruining Snapes little object lesson. phoenixgod2000 From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu May 26 20:33:14 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione cheating over Trevor? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050526203314.60460.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129550 --- Sherry Gomes wrote: > Sometimes, I'm amazed at the amount of people who will fiercely > defend Snape, even over this incident or the time with Hermione's > accidental hex and her teeth, and yet expect the children to rise > to the level of mature adult behavior and logic about Snape. In > the Trevor potion incident, it has > been said that Hermione was cheating by helping Neville. But let's > put ourselves in her place. I don't expect HERMIONE to rise to the "level of mature adult behaviour and logic about Snape". Of course she was going to help Neville get the potion right to save Trevor; Hermione being Hermione wasn't going to do anything else. But (speaking only for myself) I was addressing the readers on this list, not Hermione, and I believe the readers on this list can appreciate the proposition that in fact sporadic, ad hoc, right-this-second assistance is in the end not helping Neville a great deal. And it might even further undermine his already fragile self-confidence (as it was at that point in the series) if he thinks he almost lost his pet and can't be sure that he'll do better next time. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu May 26 20:59:52 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:59:52 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129551 > > Sophierom: > > > > I love it! This makes me wonder what house-elves would consider > > "justice". > a_svirn: > > > Slaves and justice do not belong to the same sentence. I seriously > doubt that such word can be found in elivish-English pidgin > vocabulary or that the concept would make any sense for someone > who's existence defies the very idea of justice. Sophierom: I think you're giving "slaves" far too little credit. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, justice is "a. The principle of moral rightness; equity. b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness." Slavery is most definitely unjust; but to argue that slaves can't understand justice because they suffer injustice is not supportable by human history. Obviously house-elves are not completely analogous to human slave societies, but there are parallels worth considering. Consider enslaved African Americans; they most definitely had a sense of justice in their communities. Many of the oral histories, spirituals, and folk tales from the Antebellum period are rife with calls for justice. One of the most famous spirituals, "Go Down Moses," is perhaps one of the most powerful calls for justice in United States history. While a spiritual may not be a formal "law" or "treatise" on the subject of justice, it is as clear (if not clearer) understanding of justice as anything written into the laws of this or any other country. We don't know enough about house-elf culture to say if they have a "formal" understanding for justice, but to dismiss the possibility that they understand the concept simply because they are slaves is, I think, rather unjust. ;-D > > Sophierom: > > After all, of the > > three house-elves we've gotten to know, Dobby is actually the best > > servant. > > > > > a_svirn: > > You are overlooking the fact that Dobby is no longer a servant. Sophierom: No, I'm not overlooking that. A servant does not have to be a slave. Dobby continues to serve, by choice; he serves Harry, and he serves the larger Hogwarts community. Although servant has become a word that connotes inferiority in our culture, to be a servant is actually to be of help or of service to someone in need. Dobby's acts of service to Harry are quite honorable because he chooses, of his own free will, to be a servant. For those who choose to see Christian elements in the series, Dobby's choice to serve is reminiscent of the Christian call to service. House-elf enslavement represents, in my opinion, one of the worst injustices of the wizarding world. For that reason, Dobby has always been one of my favorite characters in the series. He wants freedom and he wants to serve. Unlike the pureblood bigots of the Wizarding World, who only understand the language of superiority and inferiority, master and slave, Dobby understands that there can be service among equals. It's a worthy ideal, particularly for any society that calls itself a free society. All the best, Sophie, now stepping off her soapbox! ;-D From bob.oliver at cox.net Thu May 26 21:03:31 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:03:31 -0000 Subject: Magical Education was Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: <20050526182838.91968.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129552 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > > > Well, if you're not going to "see Snape's methods as anything other > but obviously wrong...", why bother to ask the question in the first > place? I mean, if you're not interested in discussion, is this just > an excuse to tell other posters they're wrong about something? > > Somehow that's not what I thought this list was for. Well, as I recall the question I asked was not "What do you think of Snape's teaching methods?" or "What do you think of child-centered education?" but "Do you think any of the adults have ever admonished Snape for the way he interacts with Harry?" Those questions are related but far from the same thing. I also made very clear in the very first post launching this thread my own opinions on the topics you raise about teaching methods (it was covered in number three of the options I put forth) and so my response on the subject should not have come as a great surprise. So, to bring us back on topic, the question is really a very narrow one: Do you think anyone has ever admonished Snape about the way he interacts with Harry? I am not interested, per se, in what you think about Snape's teaching methods, what you think about education in the wizarding world, or -- least of all -- what your opinions are on child-centered education. Lupinlore From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu May 26 21:11:56 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:11:56 -0000 Subject: Kreacher -workable solution? The more I think about it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: > You realize that the continuation of this scenario would be > Dumbledore ordering the execution of Snape? > > Ooo, it's a two-for-one deal, then! ^_~ > > Laura (who makes this comment in jest, and who would not *really* > enjoy seeing Severus executed. Much.) > > P. S.: I actually agree with a_svirn. As much as I think that < Kreacher deserves some type of punishment (perhaps from his own > kind), I would think *very* poorly of the Order if this were to > happen. bboyminn: The more I think about it the more I think the easiest solution is for Kreacher to take matters into his own hands, if you know what I mean. If Kreacher were to end it all, I don't think he would do so in the depths of dispare and depression. Quite the contrary, I picture Kreacher as being very relieved at no longer being bound to his servitude to the Black family. Earlier in this thread, I pointed out that the only thing really holding Kreacher to this earth, was his servitude to the Black family which continued because Sirius, the last of the Blacks, continued to live. As much as Kreacher disliked Sirius, as much as he saw him as a traitor and a disgrace, he was none the less irrevocably bound to serve the House of Black, and that meant Sirius. But now that Sirius is gone Kreacher is free, no longer bound to serve a master he hated. With that freedom, I speculate, will come a deep and peaceful relief; a lightening of the burdern that oppressed him. So with a light and peaceful heart, finally free of this oppressive and hated burden, Kreacher joyfully passes from this life to spend eternity with his true love Mrs. Black. So, Kreacher willingly passes, not in the dark depths of dispare, but with a lightened sense of relief and peace. That creates a scenario in which Kreacher passes with some degree of sympathy on the part of the characters and readers. It also frees all the good guys from any moral culpability in Kreacher's death. Quick, clean, sympathetic, and painless for all. The consequences of Kreacher continuing to live are so dark and dangerous that I shudder to even think of them. -Will Kreacher, in his continued existance, rally dark elves against the 'light' elves lead by Dobby? -Will the Order have to abandon 12 Grimmauld Place, and leave Kreacher to live out his remaining year talking to the protrait of Mrs. Black? -Will Kreacher betray all the Order's secrets to Mrs. Malfoy? -Will Kreacher actively and directly act to harm Harry and friends? -Will Dumbledore and/or others continue to try and redeem Kreacher, naively assuming a little kindness can overcome his year of dementia? -Will trying to redeem or reform Kreacher lead to dark dangerous deadly consequences? -If people show kindness to Kreacher, will he repay the kindness by becoming a spy for Voldemort? Too many nasty things can happen if Kreacher lives, plus I don't think two more short books have enought room for Kreacher to live on as a subplot. Or Kreacher could just run off to live in the dark forest, a very convenient place for used plot points to get lost when they are no longer needed. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu May 26 21:44:55 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:44:55 +0100 Subject: HBP contest update -- Betting rumor still fair game (no spoiler) References: <1117060822.53061.96374.m28@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c5623c$2a1c8880$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 129554 Tk wrote: >Recently, some bets were placed from the town where the UK Edition of >HBP is being printed that a certain character will die in HBP. (Go to >Mugglenet.com for more spoily info.) Because this is only a rumor and >was not released by JKR or a publisher, this info is treated as a >rumor and any similar contest answer is still fair game. > >Use rumors at your own risk. Before OotP, the rumors were thick, fast, >furious, and wrong. I wonder. Before OoP, JKR didn't have her own website. Since then, she's been quick to jump on any rumours that are without foundation. This one has been out for a couple of days, but nothing to refute it. hwyl Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboyminn at yahoo.com Thu May 26 21:46:10 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:46:10 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > Sophierom: > > ...Dobby continues to serve, by choice; he serves Harry, and he > serves the larger Hogwarts community. Although servant has become a > word that connotes inferiority in our culture, to be a servant is > actually to be of help or of service to someone in need. > ...edited... > > House-elf enslavement represents, in my opinion, one of the worst > injustices of the wizarding world. ... Dobby ... wants freedom > and he wants to serve. Unlike the pureblood bigots of the Wizarding > World, who only understand the language of superiority and > inferiority, master and slave, Dobby understands that there can be > service among equals. ... > > All the best, > Sophie, bboyminn: I do agree with what you said, but I want to add an addition and somewhat related point. I have said before that the comparison between the elf 'situation' and true human slavery only has limited application. The elves servitude is unlike human slavery in that it REALLY is in elves' nature to serve humans. In their culture, that service, and to do the service well, is the grandest, most fulfilling, most satisfying thing an elf can do. True, others will argue that human slave Masters have always claimed that their slaves like being slaves, and that they likes having something productive to do, and that the poor slaves would be helpless and disfunctional without their kind Masters; and we know that with regard to humans that is a load of self-serving horse manure. But elves are a very different case, all indications are that they really do eagerly seek out humans to serve, both in this story and in general lore and legend, and that they take a great deal of pride in what they do. Because of this, the comparison to human slavery is very limited in it's ability to illustrate the elves' situation. Consequently, I have never seen the problem of elf servitude as a problem of slavery or forced service, it's a problem of treatment. Elves need to be treated with dignity and gratitude; the value of their service needs to be reflected in the way they are treated. Sadly, typical colonial Europeans, the wizards are very much operating under and perpetuating a 'slave' mentality in themselves and among the elves. I still take the stand that the only thing holding elves to their service is a rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, tradition, and loyalty. Not force of law, not force of magic, but the elves own rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, tradition, and loyalty. I can't say that magic plays NO role, but for the most part, it is the elves unwavering commitment that binds them to service. If wizard could lose their colonial god-like all-superior attitudes and approach the agreement with the same sense of honor and commitment as the elves, there would be no problem. Everybody would truly be happy. Once again, I say that there is really nothing that needs to be fixed in the elves, they are fine. It's the wizards and their self-superior, self-serving abusive colonial attitudes and actions that need to be fixed. To help the plight of Elves, it's the wizards who truly need to be fixed. Just saying it again. Steve/bboyminn From amiabledorsai at yahoo.com Thu May 26 21:58:27 2005 From: amiabledorsai at yahoo.com (amiabledorsai) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:58:27 -0000 Subject: Kreacher - workable solutions? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > I wouldn't want to be in the Order of Phoenix if it > would mean stooping to such sordid tactics. And I strongly suspect > neither would Harry. Here's an alternative: Bring the Mirror of Erised to Grimmauld Place; set it up in front of the portrait of Mrs. Black with enough room for Kreacher to sit at her feet. With any luck, they'll both be ensnared by visions of a better (to them) world. Two problems solved. Might not work, I don't know if it's possible for two... persons to use the Mirror at once (Harry and Ron couldn't), but, on the other hand, they presumably have very similar, or at least compatible, desires. If they can't both see their dreams in the Mirror at once, set the Mirror up for Kreacher, and wall over the portrait. Amiable Dorsai From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu May 26 21:59:39 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:59:39 -0000 Subject: HBP contest update -- Betting rumor still fair game (no spoiler) In-Reply-To: <000401c5623c$2a1c8880$704b6d51@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Tk wrote: > >Recently, some bets were placed from the town where the UK Edition of > >HBP is being printed that a certain character will die in HBP. (Go to > >Mugglenet.com for more spoily info.) Because this is only a rumor and > >was not released by JKR or a publisher, this info is treated as a > >rumor and any similar contest answer is still fair game. > > > >Use rumors at your own risk. Before OotP, the rumors were thick, fast, > >furious, and wrong. > > I wonder. > > Before OoP, JKR didn't have her own website. Since then, she's been quick to > jump on any rumours that are without foundation. > > This one has been out for a couple of days, but nothing to refute it. > > hwyl > > Ffred Hickengruendler: By now, you've probably already seen this, but JKR did comment on the spoiler today. She was not very specific and basically only said we shouldn't believe every spoiler we hear. Of course she couldn't be any more specific in this special case. Denying that Dumbledore would die would give too much away, and confirming that he would die would give even more away. So what else can she say? Rumour or not, I think old Albus is a very likely death candidate anyway. From rbookworm46 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 22:22:08 2005 From: rbookworm46 at yahoo.com (rbookworm46) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:22:08 -0000 Subject: Kreacher -workable solution? The more I think about it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129558 Steve/bboyminn: Earlier in this thread, I pointed out that the only thing really holding Kreacher to this earth, was his servitude to the Black family which continued because Sirius, the last of the Blacks, continued to live. But now that Sirius is gone Kreacher is free, no longer bound to serve a master he hated. With that freedom, I speculate, will come a deep and peaceful relief; a lightening of the burdern that oppressed him. So with a light and peaceful heart, finally free of this oppressive and hated burden, Kreacher joyfully passes from this life to spend eternity with his true love Mrs. Black. Bookworm: Reading your post, I wondered why Kreacher wouldn't be free after Mrs. Black died. She was his mistress. If Kreacher is free now that Sirius is gone, does that mean that he doesn't move to another blood relation? Is it because they don't carry the Black name? Or because they are not in direct descent from Sirius? Narcissa, Bellatrix, and Andromeda are direct descendents of Sirius' grandparents and were born Blacks, so they seem to have as much 'Black blood' as Sirius. Why don't you think one of them will inherit Kreacher? Ravenclaw Bookworm From k.coble at comcast.net Thu May 26 22:35:39 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (mycropht33) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:35:39 -0000 Subject: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129559 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mycropht33" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, theotokos > wrote: > > > Steve wrote: > > > We could just as easily speculate that any poll found at the > > > "Harry Potter for Grownups" group, where people are deeply > > > intellectual and extremely knowledgable, and respresent the > > > combined massive intellect of the entire Harry Potter fan world, > > > are 'in the know' and are certainly correct in their prediction. > > > As a matter of fact, that very character always come in highly > > > rated in our death predictions. Perhaps tommorrow, The Mirror will > > > indicate that we have 'leaked' the secret. > > > > > > ****************** > > > mycropht33: > > > > ... I am getting really tired of people using their "predictions" as > > some sort of flexing of intellectual muscle. An educated guess is an > > educated guess. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. > > > > Sorry for coming off cranky. It's just been a sore point for me for > > awhile now. > > > > bboyminn: > > You do understand that that entire paragraph was intended as a > humorous attempt to point out the absurdity of lending any weight to > anyone's predictions or any 'leaks'? Yes, I understood fully. I jumped on it simply because it seemed to be summing up in one paragraph a lot of what I've seen on this group infrequently and in other places (mugglenet, leaky cauldron, potter plots, alt.fan.harry potter) a lot lately. It's one thing to theorize, but quite another to make grand assumptions about onesself based on the outcome of the situation. It bugs me. > I have to wonder if you even read the original post (#129500) because > you seemed to have missed the context of my statement. I pointed out > that this isn't even a story about a 'leak'. It's a non-story in which > someone speculated that there might have been a leak because of a > betting trend in a particular area. Not only did I read the original post, I posted something quite similar to it myself. I also have been following this story in both British and US press because I am not only a Harry Potter fan, but am also an avid games theorist. This story represents a very large common set of my interests. A betting trend that is probably > the most obvious and predictable choice of any of the potential > characters. A betting trend that is so obvious that it is a cliche. Some would argue that the betting trend isn't that obvious, especially since the bookmakers' line did not originally support the current trend in flutter placement. What a LOT of people don't realize is that games theory is a very real and very mathematically precise discipline made even more interesting by melding statistical probability with human behaviour models. What appears to you as a nonstory appears to me and other games theorists as an actual trace dynamic. It's Games Theory 101--a cluster behaviour chaos iteration impacting the dynamic. So, while you say it's a non- story, I say it's a model predictor. Other places where Games Theory comes in handy and fun are eBay and politics. > Further, a figurative bet that has been placed, or at least discussed > by virtually every person in every HP group in the world. Really, a > complete non-story. I reiterate that statistically since there is a limited data set of possible characters who may die, the fact that this death has been discussed by nearly everyone is of no consequence. What matters in the world of gambling is the line placed on it by the bookmakers. > In addition, I think the most logical explanation is the one I gave. > People bet on the most obvious character I have never thought that this particular death was obvious for book 6. Book 7, yes. Book 6, no. > > I still say this is a complete non-story, nothing more that typcial > baseless inflamed headlines and speculation by a tabloid newspaper. > > Also, keep in mind that since we are talking about 700 pages it would > have taken more than 'a peek' for anyone to have figured out who died > in the book. I don't think so. As a mystery reader with a penchant for glancing at the end, I can usually tell whodunnit in about 30 seconds. It took me a grand total of 17 seconds to peek ahead and see who the death was in OOTP. You develop a knack. (In case you haven't guessed by the GT krep, I am addicted to outcomes.) From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Thu May 26 23:00:17 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 16:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magical Education was Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050526230017.35927.qmail@web53102.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129560 > So, to bring us back on topic, the question is really a very narrow > one: Do you think anyone has ever admonished Snape about the way he > interacts with Harry? I am not interested, per se, in what you > think about Snape's teaching methods, what you think about > education > in the wizarding world, or -- least of all -- what your opinions > are on child-centered education. > > Lupinlore Oh, I see. Yes, that was your original question. What threw me off was the many paragraphs that discussed the above points in addition to your question. So I thought you were interested in the bigger issue. My answer: No, I don't. For all the reasons I discussed in my earlier post. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From sophierom at yahoo.com Thu May 26 23:08:39 2005 From: sophierom at yahoo.com (sophierom) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:08:39 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129561 Steve/bboyminn wrote: > But elves are a very different case, all indications are that they > really do eagerly seek out humans to serve, both in this story and in > general lore and legend, and that they take a great deal of pride in > what they do. Because of this, the comparison to human slavery is very > limited in it's ability to illustrate the elves' situation. > > Consequently, I have never seen the problem of elf servitude as a > problem of slavery or forced service, it's a problem of treatment. > Elves need to be treated with dignity and gratitude; the value of > their service needs to be reflected in the way they are treated. Sophierom: I agree that house-elves are, in some important ways, very different from humans who have been enslaved. As you suggest, there seems to be something in their nature/culture/magical make-up that causes them to "eagerly seek out humans to serve". I believe that service is fundamentally different than slavery (as do you, if I'm understanding your point). However, house-elves at the time of the HP series are both servants and slaves. They cannot leave the service of a wizard master unless that master grants them clothes or freedom. You're right: wizards and witches should treat their house-elves with respect and dignity; but not all will do that, and there's no way to enforce better treatment. If house-elves are badly treated, then they should be able to exercise the choice to leave that family and find another to serve. If it's in elf-nature to serve, then it's in human nature to acquire and hold onto power (a generalization, I know, but one that I see throughout the HP series and life, for that matter). Oppressors rarely give up their power without compulsion. Why would any master give up the authority to treat his or her house-elf how s/he chooses? If a master/mistress does treat a house-elf well, it's because s/he CHOOSES to treat the elf well. The choice, then, is still in the hands of the human. I believe that, unless the house-elves to choose their own fate, they are indeed slaves, and though they are different from human slaves, all slaves lack fundamental right to choose their own path in life. Steve/bboyminn: > Sadly, typical colonial Europeans, the wizards are very much operating > under and perpetuating a 'slave' mentality in themselves and among the > elves. I still take the stand that the only thing holding elves to > their service is a rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, > tradition, and loyalty. Not force of law, not force of magic, but the > elves own rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, > tradition, and loyalty. I can't say that magic plays NO role, but for > the most part, it is the elves unwavering commitment that binds them > to service. Sophierom: This is a fascinating concept! Do you mean to suggest, then, that should an elf will it, s/he could be free? Perhaps Dobby's freedom didn't come so much from Harry (though he was the instrument) but from Dobby, through a set of choices he made throughout CoS? I really like this idea. I think, however, that the house-elves must ultimately have the choice to serve rather than the compulsion to serve. If they are the ones who place magical bonds on themselves, so long as they can also take the bonds away, then I'll agree with you: house-elves aren't slaves but free servants. But IMHO, house-elves will continue to be slaves (no matter who or what enslaves them) until they have the choice to make their own futures. I think I've said this before (I'm very repetitive!), but I do believe that, in a story that revolves around the power of choice and free will, the house-elves' lack of choice represents a real problem. The poor treatment of house-elves is a symptom of this problem, but it is the lack of choice that is the fundamental illness here. Steve/bboyminn: > If wizard could lose their colonial god-like all-superior attitudes > and approach the agreement with the same sense of honor and commitment > as the elves, there would be no problem. Everybody would truly be > happy. Once again, I say that there is really nothing that needs to be > fixed in the elves, they are fine. It's the wizards and their > self-superior, self-serving abusive colonial attitudes and actions > that need to be fixed. > > To help the plight of Elves, it's the wizards who truly need to be fixed. > > Just saying it again. Sophierom: Glad you did say it again. I think your point about the need for wizards to change their attitudes is a great one. But I maintain that it would be impossible to change every wizard's attitude. And it would be impossible to enforce a change of attitude. That's why house-elves need the choice to leave a family. I also think that it's inaccurate to argue that the condition of the house-elves hasn't affected the elves themselves. Winky and Kreacher have some serious emotional issues. They are not "fine"; they are incredibly unhappy. This may be because of the mistreatment, and it could be argued that if they hadn't been mistreated, then they'd be fine. But at the risk of repeating myself, how is it possible to make someone like Mrs. Black respect house-elves when she doesn't respect other humans? Is it possible to make Malfoy respect house-elves when he doesn't even respect Muggleborns? And if it's not possible to reform the wizard, what happens to that house-elf? Dobby was able to get out of a bad situation. Other house-elves might not be so lucky. All the best, Sophie From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 23:19:34 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:19:34 -0000 Subject: Hermione cheating over Trevor? In-Reply-To: <002501c561fc$9e354030$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129562 >>Sherry: >In the Trevor potion incident, it has been said that Hermione was cheating by helping Neville. But let's put ourselves in her place. >So, here we are in class, and our classmate who is struggling in all his classes, but who has a particularly difficult time with Snape has just had Snape threaten to poison his pet. His PET!< >I don't see it as a matter of cheating; I see it as an example of Hermione's compassion. Maybe, it wasn't the right way, but it was her heart that was engaged. She had no way of knowing if Snape would or would not have followed through on his threat. In fact, we, the readers, have no way of knowing.< Betsy: Oh yes, Hermione *was* acting out of compassion. But she was still cheating. Hermione herself would admit that she was cheating. At this point she had decided that it was worth breaking the rules to "save" Neville's pet. As I said before, Hermione was acting out of kindness. But she *does* sabatoge Snape's attempts to reach a troubled student. Remember, the whole point of learning Potions is that someday you may very well have to use your knowledge. (The classes in WW tend to be very practical, rather than pure theory.) Snape was trying, IMO, to drive home to Neville that at some point someone may have to drink a potion he has made. Therefore it is imperative that he *follow directions precisely*. I am of the opinion that Snape would not have allowed Trevor to die, but I think he thought it important that Neville think his toad's life depended upon his brewing ability. After all, at some point an emergency like that might occur, and what will happen if Hermione's not around to save the day? I would also point out that Snape only takes five points from Gryffindor. So while he's not pleased that Neville did not do the potion on his own, as requested, Snape does not crucify anyone for what, IMO, was a blatant example of cheating. Maybe Snape recognized the reasoning behind Hermione's actions? Or maybe I'm giving him too much credit and Snape only took a few points because he had no definitive proof. Either way, I don't think Snape reacts in a barbaric or over-the-top-way. Honestly, I think Snape was rather restrained. Betsy, who thinks Neville garnered quite a bit of talk in the staff room and probably caused many professors a great deal of frustration as they tried to bring out his true potential. From chnc1024 at earthlink.com Thu May 26 23:36:09 2005 From: chnc1024 at earthlink.com (Chancie) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:36:09 -0000 Subject: JKR site update!!!!!!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129563 Hi, I just saw on MuggleNet that JKR has updated the news, and rubbish bin on her site concerning the supposed "leaks", posting on fan sites, and HBP being her "best book yet". Just thought you guys might want to check it out! Chancie From nrenka at yahoo.com Thu May 26 23:42:24 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:42:24 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > Pippin: > It's true we've never seen her gratuitously insult a student, but > then we've never seen her with a student who gets on her nerves > the way, oh, Sybil Trelawney does. Tripe, anyone? Subtle insults are rather different than the gratuitous; unlike Snape, we also learn from McG that she has professional standards about talking about her colleagues. Yes, it's obvious to the kids that she doesn't like Trelawney, but she makes a point *that she won't come out and say it*. Unlike Snape insulting Lupin to Lupin's own class. Ohhh, professionalism. > All you can say is that McGonagall is fairer (and that's saying a > lot) but that has come with the years. She's still sniffling over > the way she treated Peter Pettigrew, and she let the Marauders get > away with stuff that Draco and his gang haven't contemplated in > their wildest dreams. > And she'd have to have a helluva lot of brass to admonish Snape for > the way he treats his students, after the way she let him be > treated when he was one. I think you give McG way too much responsibility for controlling the actions of her students--Dumbledore didn't exactly step in either and stop Snape from being bullied, from what we've seen. It's likely that his extent of knowledge of what was happening, given how much he knows about what goes on in the school, was considerably larger, as well. Hmmm...Dumbledore practices tolerance and doesn't step in where it's not his place, right? If that applies to present-day Snape in the classroom, it could very well to the past as well (and let's be fair and consistent, no?). No one actively steps in unless it seems about ready to come to blows, such as the end of OotP. But what really confuses me here is your casual conflation of agency and responsibility. McG's sins are those of omission if at all, failing to control students who she doesn't keep tabs on 24 hours a day. Snape's sins are those of his own commission: he's not being considered here for what would be the matching crime to McG's, failing to keep Draco and crew from nasty activities. He's being considered for his very own bullying ways inside the classroom and out of it. I didn't answer this some time ago, but I come down *at present* in partial agreement with phoenixgod: Snape's sarcasm is really funny much of the time, and there are times I find myself cheering him on. But verbally and emotionally beating up on kids with the complete imbalance of power and authority behind it...not so admirable. Saying that he's good when he doesn't do that, when he restrains his nastiness, is a little like saying "Look! That man *isn't* kicking at the pigeons!" -Nora notes that we'll all have to rethink Snape in a month and a half, and wonders how many people's images of the character will survive (including her own) From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 27 00:11:39 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:11:39 -0000 Subject: Magical Education was Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129565 >>Lupinlore: >So, to bring us back on topic, the question is really a very narrow one: Do you think anyone has ever admonished Snape about the way he interacts with Harry? I am not interested, per se, in what you think about Snape's teaching methods, what you think about education in the wizarding world, or -- least of all -- what your opinions are on child-centered education.< Betsy: I shall endeavor to keep my opinons to myself, while answering your question with what, in the end, is my opinion. First of all, who amongst the Hogwarts staff is in a position to admonish Snape? I imagine that there's a fairly strict hierarchy at work here (based, I will admit, on British boarding school books of fiction that I've read, so please correct me if I'm wrong). I think that professors rank above support staff. So Filch, Madam Pomfrey (unless it's a health issue), Hagrid (at first), and quite possibly Madam Hooch cannot speak to Snape. Of the professors, I think those who are heads of houses rank above those who are not so that leaves Professors McGonagall, Flitwick and Sprout. I'm under the impression that it's a serious breach of conduct for one professor to speak to another professor about a child not of their house, so that throws out Professors Flitwick and Sprout. Which leaves us with Professor McGonagall, and of course Dumbledore with his rank as Headmaster of the school. The question then becomes, do either McGonagall or Dumbledore have any reason to admonish Snape? Not that I've seen really. Snape hasn't acted unfairly, that we've seen, in his grading of Harry. When Harry does get a D, he doesn't act like it's below what he deserves. (OotP scholastic p. 309) And I don't recall any instance where Harry feels his exams have been unfairly graded. (Yes, Snape does drop that one potion, and he does refuse to accept a less than perfect potion, but that was class work, which has no affect on Harry's final grade.) Okay, Snape *is* hard on Harry in the classroom. But again, not to an egregious extent. It's enough to make Harry hate Snape, but not enough to affect his other classes, or even his self-esteem. There's no pattern of behavior for either Dumbledore or McGonagall to notice and take action on: no over-the-top detentions, no impossible to complete homework assignments, no night-time crying jags, nothing that would be noted as cruel or unusual behavior on Snape's part, nothing that would indicate a victim of teacher abuse on Harry's part. There have been times that Snape has overstepped his bounds when he and Dumbledore and McGonagall have caught (or usually Snape does the catching and Dumbledore and McGonagall are brought in) Harry in some form of wrong doing. These are the times that Snape plays "bad-cop" and suggests Harry be thrown off the quidditch team (wishful thinking of a rival head of house) or that Harry be expelled (something I doubt Snape ever seriously thought Dumbledore would do). But McGonagall generally nips those suggestions in the bud, while Harry realizes just how badly he's behaved. So in a sense, you could say that McGonagall admonishes Snape here. But I would call it a very mild form of admonishment. (And probably not what you're looking for.) Which brings us to the Occlumency lessons. Since Dumbledore was the only staff member aware of the lessons, only Dumbledore is in a position to admonish Snape about stopping the lessons (the only action worthy of admonishment, IMO). Did this happen? Obviously Dumbledore would say nothing to Snape in front of Harry. That would be an incredible break of hierarchy, I think. There's an indication that Dumbledore has spoken with Snape, at least briefly anyway, in the talk he and Harry have at the end of OotP. But we really have no idea what was said. Dumbledore seems to ultimately blame himself for the Occlumency breakdown, but that doesn't preclude him admonishing Snape. (Leaders will often examine what *they've* done wrong after disciplining wrongdoers. Parents do it all the time.) So this may be a place where Snape is admonished, though it happens off page and we may never know for sure if it has happened. Betsy From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri May 27 00:31:15 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:31:15 -0000 Subject: Patronus=Animagus? / Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: <42953BC3.3010703@yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129566 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michelle Crowe wrote: > Can anyone point to something definitive in canon stating that one's > patronus and animagus forms are the same? I can't recall it, and > need to know.... Thanks! > _________________________ > > Angie: > > Seems like there is a line from one of the books, as part of the > > narrative, that says so something like, for nothing was Harry the > > youngest Quidditch player in a century; he had a knack for seeing > > things others didn't." Is that because of his glasses or in > > spite of them? > > > Perhaps it has to do with attention to detail and not visual acuity? > Those are two entirely different qualities. > > Michelle What you say makes sense, but to see such a very small and fast "detail" would require a certain amount of visual acuity, too. And James was a Chaser, as I recall, not a Seeker, so Harry didn't inherit that skill from him. Angie From gelite67 at yahoo.com Fri May 27 00:44:07 2005 From: gelite67 at yahoo.com (gelite67) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 00:44:07 -0000 Subject: In Support of Hermione In-Reply-To: <20050526021132.13157.qmail@web32807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129567 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, WhizBang121 wrote: > > --- kmohdia wrote: > > > As for Hermione,I simply love her. J.K. Rowling > > can be > > satisfied that there is one person who cannot have her > > die/be > > killed. > > > > "Declared Hermione Fan" > > Mohammedi (Violet) > > > Whiz: I love Hermione, too and I think she's extremely > vulnerable. > But I keep my eye on Hermione, too. She's proved more than > once that she can keep a secret from the boys. From books > one to four, they often think how she looks and sounds like > McGonagall. In OotP, they notice that she looks and sounds > like Molly Weasley. > > Hermione is very impressionable. But is she also working > with adults to "keep and eye" on Harry and perhaps to > attempt to influence him as a peer? > > I love her ... but I wonder. > > WhizBang Angie here: I've been thinking/wondering about Hermione's secret-keeping ability, because I just finished POA (again). Hermione was adamant that she couldn't tell "anyone", apparently because she promised McGonagall/MOM that she wouldn't tell "anyone." Wonder what else she knows and has promised to to tell "anyone?" She very much worries about Harry, but doesn't seem to worry as much about Ron. Wonder if she knows about the Prophesy? I can SO see the MOM "recruiting" her to help keep tabs on Harry, which could explain why she's always so quick to encourage him to go to DD or Minerva. From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri May 27 00:56:12 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 20:56:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione cheating over Trevor? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ba2d8096c067bb0bb92e4ca60f73800@fandm.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 129568 Besty: > Oh yes, Hermione *was* acting out of compassion. But she was still > cheating. Hermione herself would admit that she was cheating. At > this point she had decided that it was worth breaking the rules > to "save" Neville's pet. As I said before, Hermione was acting out > of kindness. But she *does* sabatoge Snape's attempts to reach a > troubled student. Well, that's *your* reading of his motivations. It's not necessarily *my* reading, and, most importantly, it's certainly not Hermione's "reading". I'm actually not quite sure what you are trying to argue here (my fault, sorry), but I think what Sherry was trying to say was that Hermione should not be criticized for this instance of "cheating". In this argument, I think, it doesn't really matter what Snape's actual motivations are -- it's what Hermione *believes* them to be. And, honestly, if she thinks he'd actually kill Trevor -- it's his own fault for being such a raving bastard. Mind you, I'm not saying Snape *shouldn't* be a raving bastard -- he'd not be half so interesting if he wasn't. I just don't think the other characters should be expected to act like he isn't a nasty piece of work. I've snipped the rest of the post, as it didn't really pertain to Hermione, although I *do* think the fact that Snape only five points is a good . . . erm, *point*. > Betsy, who thinks Neville garnered quite a bit of talk in the staff > room and probably caused many professors a great deal of frustration > as they tried to bring out his true potential. *grins* Ah, yes . . . I can picture it now: McGonagall: "That Neville Longbottom! I've tried everything I can think of, and *still* he shows no improvement!" Hagrid: "Tell me about it. Boy's a ruddy disaster." Flitwick: "He's got no self-confidence, that's the problem! I just try to be as encouraging as possible with him." McGonagall: "Is that all? Personally, I think what he needs is a structured environment and a firm hand -- that'll sort him out. What do you think, Severus?" Snape: "Well, yesterday I tried to poison his toad." McGonagall: *looks fascinated* "Did it work?" Snape: *bored sigh* "No." Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From nelliot at ozemail.com.au Thu May 26 13:54:15 2005 From: nelliot at ozemail.com.au (njelliot2003) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 13:54:15 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129569 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Luna Lovegood. Draco Malfoy will also die though his death may be held over till book 7. The canonical evidence for Draco's death is terrifically sound ? in PS, the first Fat Lady password Harry hears is "Caput Draconis" (pg. 96). Caput means dead doesn't it? It did in the Comic Book German we used at school. > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? Dudley Dursley I base this prediction on the flimsiest of evidence. In OOTP, DD explains that Petunia provides the blood connection that keeps Harry safe. Dudley shares that blood connection ? he has half the Potter family blood through Petunia. Then further down the same page (751) DD relates to Harry how he appeared when he turned up at Hogwarts 5 years ago and he describes it the following way: "You were not a pampered little prince..." No Harry wasn't, Dudley fills that role in the family! Half-blood prince ? what more could you want? I reject Godric Griffindor, or one of his descendants, as the HBP on the grounds that I can't see what he might add to the plot that DD doesn't provide already. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be > eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret > is revealed.) I'm more interested in Petunia's big secret. I think she's a squib. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Luna's dad. He'll be hopeless. I wish it were Lupin, or Mad-Eye, or Tonks! > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna Lovegood. It'll take most of the book for them to get really close and then, just when Harry is in the full flush of his first true love, she'll be killed by the dark side so that Rowling can make Harry suffer even more than he has already. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman. Ludo will maintain Rowling's theme that government bureaucracy is at best ineffectual and a joke and at worst working against the common good, even evil. The goblins will be furious with the Minister at a time when their allegiance is desperately needed against LV. Good setup for further complications! > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It's a dementor dispersing yo-yo invented by Fred and George Weasley. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? The absolute minimum that allows him to stay on the auror career path. He might even have to do a remedial class in one subject to get across the line. > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory > Question section. 1. On their trip to Sweden, Luna and her dad will either prove the Crumple-Horned Snorkack is real, or (more likely) Luna will lead the Scandinavian giants out of the wilderness and across to the light side. 2. Neville will discover that Mimbulus mimbletonia has healing properties hitherto unknown and, hopefully, will cure his parents of their madness. I base this on the name ? it looks a bit like mimble mumble tonic. (I could do with a dose of it right now.) 3. LV will launch an attack on Muggles. The first third of the book will consist of Harry and the Dursleys fighting LV or his minions in Muggleland during the summer holidays. 4. Luna will speak to her mum behind the veil. There will be some reason why Harry will be unable to do the same with Sirius because it's a lovely opportunity for Rowling to inflict yet more cruelty on Harry. 5. Lupin will remain jobless, penniless, and no one will give him a decent wardrobe(sigh). Riddikulus! 6. Hermione's cat's true identity will be revealed. "njelliot2003" From scolere at gmail.com Thu May 26 16:49:23 2005 From: scolere at gmail.com (Sass) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 17:49:23 +0100 Subject: Harry's eyesight In-Reply-To: <1117105876.24025.93777.m19@yahoogroups.com> References: <1117105876.24025.93777.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129570 On 26 May 2005 11:11:16 -0000, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > Angie: > Seems like there is a line from one of the books, as part of the > narrative, that says so something like, for nothing was Harry the > youngest Quidditch player in a century; he had a knack for seeing > things others didn't." Is that because of his glasses or in > spite of them? This comes from PS/SS - when Harry, Ron and Hermione are trying to spot the key they need to use to get them through the obstacles en route to the Philosopher's Stone - it's on page 203 of the Bloomsbury H/B ed. ('Through the Trapdoor') Michelle > Perhaps it has to do with attention to detail and not visual acuity? > Those are two entirely different qualities. Sass now: Indeed they are ! I wear glasses both for close work and for just walking around, but I work as a proof-reader and I am (though I say it myself) very good at spotting things - I've been called eagle-eyed on more than occasion - not because I can see for miles like an eagle, but because I'm good at spotting small things (like an eagle can spot a mouse in a field of corn from a great height). I'm quite sure that Harry's in the same position as I am in that respect - he notices the small things (like a Snitch or a key with a bent wing) that others do not. . . Sass -- "Leisure without literature is death, or rather the burial of a living man." - Seneca From sharon8880 at yahoo.com Thu May 26 18:10:26 2005 From: sharon8880 at yahoo.com (sharon) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 18:10:26 -0000 Subject: HBP contest: Rules Repost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tigerpatronus" wrote: Okay, my turn! > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? tie between Arthur Weasley & Hagrid > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? No Clue > 3. What is Lily's big secret? That she was tempted to be a DE by Snape, but since she chose not to be one, he gave it up too. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? The old lion guy > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? No one, but he will get friendlier with Luna > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Madame Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Someone's pensieve > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes, it will be required with war on. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes, it will be required with war on. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? seven Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1. Ron & Hermione will grow closer as Harry will leave them out of more of his life in fear for theirs. > 2. Draco & friends will attempt to spring Lucius from Azakaban. > 3. Peter Pettigrew will resurface trying to payback his lifedebt to Harry, but it will be a facade to lure Harry into an LV trap. > 4. Harry will be returned to the quidditch team. > 5. It will be revealed that Krum & Hermione's relationship involved intelligence gathering. 6. Harry will learn too late that the mirror he left in his trunk was a way of communicating with Sirius. Sharon From alishak at spu.edu Thu May 26 22:55:20 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:55:20 -0000 Subject: Rampant Ingratitude, was Re:Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129572 phoenixgod2000: > I agree with you Sherry that Snape is most likely personally loyal > to Dumbledore. I don't think he is going to be suddenly revealed as > evil or anything like that. I'm just not that lucky. but there is a > difference between that and being grateful as far as I am > concerned. If I am given a second chance by someone and put in a > postion of incredible responsibility (like a teacher) I do not > honor that choice by doing the job that Snape does with his > attitude. you do it with gusto, as a form of thanks, that you have > a second chance. Snape acts like he would rather be doing > something else, which is an ungrateful attitude as far as I was > raised. Alisha: Of course Snape acts like he'd rather be doing something. He /would/ rather be doing something else. He hates dealing with children. He may be incredibly grateful for what Dumbledore has done for him. He may even be doing the best he can as a teacher, but that doesn't mean that he has to enjoy what he does, nor should he have to act like he does. Whatever crimes he may have committed as a DE, Dumbledore does not hold them against him, so he shouldn't be made to suffer for them any longer. It is possible that he continues to hold a job he despises as a form of self-inflicted punishment. In any case, Dumbledore doesn't seem to think he's being ungrateful. He doesn't require his benificiaries to grovel in thankfulness before him. And if it doesn't bother him, it shouldn't bother you. Alisha who wishes she could like Snape in the book as much as she likes Alan Rickman's portrayal. From alishak at spu.edu Thu May 26 23:15:17 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 23:15:17 -0000 Subject: Annoyed with Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129573 Bookworm: > Of course he is inconsiderate and self-involved. He is a teenager. > Inconsiderate and self involved? It's a wonder if that is the worst > that is said about Harry. Alisha: I agree with what you say about Harry. He is a teenager, and his actions may indeed be in keeping with normal adolescent behavior. Be that as it may, his behavior is annoying. It's understandable, but that doesn't make it any less annoying. From fiscused at yahoo.com Thu May 26 22:25:56 2005 From: fiscused at yahoo.com (fiscused) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:25:56 -0000 Subject: In Support of Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kmohdia" wrote: > I find that I find it quite surprising that how people can > NOT care about the second best friend of Harry. Surely, I can't imagine the book without Hermione. I am truly inspired by Hermione. > "Declared Hermione Fan" > Mohammedi (Violet) I like Hermione. She tends to play the "straight" part to Ron or Harry's more reckless tendencies. But that's important. I think recently her popularity might be waning due to the introduction of 3 strong females in OotP. I speak of Luna, Tonks, and the "new" Ginny. None may be as smart as Hermione, but they have a lot of character and are fun. Typical. The smart girl is ignored in favor of the "cooler" girls, even in fiction. I married a smart girl! Nev From marilynpeake at cs.com Fri May 27 01:54:57 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 01:54:57 -0000 Subject: The Harry Potter Books & Jungian Philosophy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129575 Jen Reese: > Mainly I see Jungian theory as another model to put over the series and explain some of the events going on, especially interactions between the characters. Marilyn Peake: Jungian archetypes are also prevalent in the Harry Potter books. Examples are: good mother (Harry's real mother), bad mother (Mrs. Dursley), and wise old man (Dumbledore). I think that the Harry Potter books appeal to so many people, both children and adults, because they reach down into the basic human core that includes archetypes and good vs. evil. Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From jmnabers at yahoo.com Thu May 26 21:10:32 2005 From: jmnabers at yahoo.com (Jennifer Nabers) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 14:10:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HBP Prediction Contest Message-ID: <20050526211032.88588.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129576 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Percy Weasley > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," > describe more.) I have no idea. A new character, someone that is Harry's age or slightly older. This person will start out as a friendly character, but it turns they have a hidden dark side or go bad. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated > and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Even though she knew Sirius was kind of a jerk, she secretly liked him anyways in school. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Lupin > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Dumbledore's Penseive > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Transfiguration, Charms, DaDA, Astronomy, & Potions----5 > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > 1. Harry will inherit the Black Family holdings from Sirius. Something in them (a book, or diary, etc...) will help with the cause of the Order of the Phoenix. 2. Dumbledore will teach Harry Occlumency. 3. A character previously assumed to be dead will turn up alive, my bet is on Regulus Black. 4. Ron and Hermoine will kiss, but then be afraid of ruining their friendship and put on the brakes. 5. Someone will manage to apparate or disapparate onto the grounds of Hogwarts. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Fri May 27 02:45:36 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 02:45:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione cheating over Trevor? In-Reply-To: <2ba2d8096c067bb0bb92e4ca60f73800@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129577 >>Besty: >Oh yes, Hermione *was* acting out of compassion. But she was still cheating. Hermione herself would admit that she was cheating. At this point she had decided that it was worth breaking the rules to "save" Neville's pet. As I said before, Hermione was acting out of kindness. But she *does* sabatoge Snape's attempts to reach a troubled student.< >>Laura Ingalls Huntley: > Well, that's *your* reading of his motivations. It's not necessarily *my* reading, and, most importantly, it's certainly not Hermione's "reading".< Betsy: "What do I have to do to make you understand, Longbottom?" [...] "Longbottom, at the end of this lesson we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly." (OotP scholastic ed p.126) I do read Snape's motivation as trying to encourage Neville to do the potion properly. I admit, I'm taking him at his word. Honestly, I'm not sure what Hermione thought Snape was doing, if she even thought about it at all. I think she was so caught up in feeling sorry for poor stupid Neville she was thinking more of how to save him rather than why Snape put Trevor on the line. I'm curious, how do you read Snape's motivations? >>Laura Ingalls Huntley: >I'm actually not quite sure what you are trying to argue here (my fault, sorry), but I think what Sherry was trying to say was that Hermione should not be criticized for this instance of "cheating".< Betsy: My point is motivation - shmotivation. Cheating is cheating. And though Hermione's motives were very kindly meant, she reinforces Neville's own belief that he is a big failure that can't do anything right. I will say, however, that were I in Hermione's place I may well do the same thing, especially since Neville asks so piteously for help. But I would be completely aware (as I think Hermione is) that I *was* cheating. >>Laura Ingalls Huntley: >In this argument, I think, it doesn't really matter what Snape's actual motivations are -- it's what Hermione *believes* them to be. And, honestly, if she thinks he'd actually kill Trevor -- it's his own fault for being such a raving bastard. >Mind you, I'm not saying Snape *shouldn't* be a raving bastard -- he'd not be half so interesting if he wasn't. I just don't think the other characters should be expected to act like he isn't a nasty piece of work.< Betsy: I'm not sure why Hermione's understanding of Snape's motivations matter. She cheated. Full stop. Snape does come across as fully capable of poisoning someone's (especially a Gryffindor's) pet. I do see that. *I* don't think Snape would *actually* kill a pet, but I think he cultivates his "scary, nasty, bastard" persona quite well, so I can see how *Hermione* would think he'd do so. So she decides to cheat to help save Neville's pet. >>Laura Ingalls Huntley: >I've snipped the rest of the post, as it didn't really pertain to Hermione, although I *do* think the fact that Snape only five points is a good . . . erm, *point*. Betsy: Heh. Snape is actually pretty fair about point removal, IIRC. He rarely takes many points at all. (I think McGonagall has taken the largest amount of points from Harry and gang.) >>Laura Ingalls Huntley: >McGonagall: "That Neville Longbottom! I've tried everything I can think of, and *still* he shows no improvement!" >Hagrid: "Tell me about it. Boy's a ruddy disaster." >Flitwick: "He's got no self-confidence, that's the problem! I just try to be as encouraging as possible with him." >McGonagall: "Is that all? Personally, I think what he needs is a structured environment and a firm hand -- that'll sort him out. What do you think, Severus?" >Snape: "Well, yesterday I tried to poison his toad." >McGonagall: *looks fascinated* "Did it work?" >Snape: *bored sigh* "No."< Betsy: It's funny because it's true! :-) From Vivamus at TaprootTech.com Fri May 27 02:55:34 2005 From: Vivamus at TaprootTech.com (Vivamus) Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 22:55:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HBP prediction contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200505262256569.SM00748@devbox> No: HPFGUIDX 129578 > Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): > > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Since there is now a supposedly high probability of DD being the one to die in this book, it seems a cheap shot to predict him, but I'll stick by my earlier prediction that DD will have to buy it before Harry really has a chance to grow up. So, DD is still my prediction. Before POA came out, I predicted that one of the Weasleys would die, because the emotional interactions of that family having to deal with the death of one of their own is just too wonderful a plot tool for JKR to pass up. It hasn't happened yet (and I really don't want it do,) but I'm afraid the possibilities are getting greater that either Percy will die as a result of his own treachery, realizing just a bit too late what he has done, or (more likely) that Arthur will die as a result of Percy's treachery. If Arthur dies, I expect Percy to go the Judas route and hang himself, or decide to go out in a blaze of glory, dueling with LV -- getting himself promptly snuffed. On the other hand, what if Arthur's name has something to do with his heritage and lineage, and Arthur is destined for greatness? JKR has flatly said he won't be MoM, but what if he will be some other kind of ruler/leader in the WW? > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? I'm still betting on Neville, unless it's the lion-character. > 3. What is Lily's big secret? It has to do with her eyes. I still vote for Snape being in love with Lily, and the "worst memory" was when she finally rejected him. When she chose his worst enemy, Snape became the bitter, petty tyrant he is now, hating himself, hating her, hating life. Every time he looks at Harry, he sees Lily's eyes in James' face, and *that* is why he hated Harry from the moment he saw him. Harry forces him to live the worst moment of his life, over and over -- much as the dementors torment Harry -- because he has Lily's eyes. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicitus -- the lion character. > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ginny Weasley. It will be interesting to see if JKR plays with the R/H and H/H shippers by having Harry have a romantic relationship with Hermione, but if he does, it won't go beyond a single kiss. No, I think the last book is going to be a desperate fight against overwhelming odds, and Harry will need to be completed before that book really gets going -- doubly so if DD dies. So, he will have to finally settle down into his "destined" relationship, with Ginny. Without her, he really won't be complete, and he must be complete before the seventh book begins. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Ludo Bagman We've already had a Neville Chamberlain, so my guess is either a Churchill or a Hitler. Hmmm, I think it will be a Hitler. Delores Umbridge has been so thoroughly disgraced, she would be pulling a minor miracle to stay out of Azkaban, but I don't know of anyone else who would want the job. Arthur would be a natural, but JKR has nixed that. Barty Crouch, Sr., would be perfect, except for the fact that he is very inconveniently dead. Ahh. Kingsley Shacklebolt. Experienced Auror, well-respected, not a half-nutter like Moody. No, wait! Ludo Bagman! Yes, yes, yes! Ludo the previous DE who will reveal a real thirst for power under all that jovial fluff. Immensely popular, but with a very shady background -- just the sort to "make the trains run on time." Ludo the monster. > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The Pensieve, with a little artistic imagination thrown in. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course. > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes! Remember, he wants to be an Auror too, and his development has been "scary" in OOtP. Also, he seemed quite calm in the potions exam. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine. He passed Potions, DADA, Astronomy, Charms, Transfiguration, Herbology, Magical Creatures, Divination, History, He did not take Arithmancy, Runes, or Muggle Studies > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. Harry will finally realize that he and Ginny are eternally bound the same night DD dies, leaving Harry completed and abandoned at the same time. 2. Harry will get Outstanding OWLs in DADA, Potions, Charms, and Magical Creatures. He will get Exceeds Expectations in Transfiguration and Herbology. He will barely scrape by with a Pass in Divination (because no one can fail it if they make *any* predictions), Astronomy (because he was distracted by the attack on Hagrid and McGonagall) and History (because he fell asleep and had a "spell" during the exam). (Actually, he may well fail History -- not that it matters much.) 3. Neville will come into his own in this book. By the end of the book, there will be serious doubt as to whether Neville or Harry is better prepared to battle LV one-on-one. This will raise once again (but not answer) the question of exactly to whom was the prophecy referring. 4. Harry will kill in this book. It is part of his growing up, but he has to learn what war is, and what it means to take a life, so that it is gone forever. Ginny, Minerva, and Molly will help him get over it. 5. Petunia will be the one to suddenly burst out with magic, in desperation to save Dudley. Vivamus From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Fri May 27 03:11:37 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:11:37 -0000 Subject: HBP Prediction Contest: Email entry to Tiger, too! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129579 For those entering the HBP Prediction Contest: don't forget to cc: your predictions to *tigerpatronus*at*yahoo*dot*com.* If you haven't sent me your predictions, you aren't officially entered in the contest. I don't have time to compare the newsgroup message boards to my email folders to figure out if someone forgot to email me. Sorry. You should receive a short receipt to acknowledge your entry within a day or two (now that I'm home from vacation.) If you haven't gotten an email receipt, email your answers to me. TK -- TigerPatronus! From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Fri May 27 03:33:53 2005 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:33:53 -0000 Subject: Annoyed with Harry (was Re: Lusting After Snape) In-Reply-To: <20050523225130.52573.qmail@web53103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129580 As a big fan of the character Harry Potter, I thought I might delurk to put my two-cents worth in here. Please bear with me. I realise that every character has their flaws (and this is what makes them so real to so many of us), but I think many are harder on Harry than is absolutely fair and easier on Ronald Weasley than they should be. Firstly, I'd like to point out that Harry, technically, is an abused child. And as a sufferer of abuse for most of his life, his is actually quite stable and compassionate (moreso I think than should realistically be expected). Secondly, he lives under more emotional and physical stress than any of his classmates and should, if nothing else, be granted some leniency for this. To address these points in particular: Magda said: "1. He doesn't ask questions about his parents or his family. Yes, I know the Dursleys discouraged question-asking but you'll notice he's managed to ignore just about every other lesson the Dursleys taught him so why hang on to this?" Me: It is not so much that the Dursley's discouraged asking questions as that Harry has not had the opportunity to develop trust in the adults in his life nor to expect them to answer him truthfully. He grew up in a household where it was made abundantly clear that he was defective, unwanted and unloved. A child just does not and cannot establish normal patterns of relating after an experience like that. To some extent it is a plot device, I agree, but it is mostly a result of his very very bad upbringing. Magda said: "2. He doesn't appreciate his friends enough. At the end of OOTP, when he visits Ron, Ginny, Hermione in the hospital wing there is not one moment when he thinks that he could have got these friends killed because of his stubborn refusal to really listen to Hermione's very reasonable objections. Yes, he's grieving but he's lived with and known these kids for years; they should be at least as important to him as a distant godfather who he hardly ever spent time with or talked to." Me: Once again, I think this misses the bigger picture. It is possible that Harry will actually think about the effect the DoM battle had on his friends once he's had a chance to grieve properly for the only real father figure he has ever known. You cannot seriously expect however for the child to be able to see anything very clearly with such an enormous loss still to be dealt with. I really do think that this is a case of simply not putting yourself in Harry's shoes. Yes, he barely knew Sirius, but for a child like Harry who has had no other real parent figures in his life to speak of, the huge need for such a figure understandably led him to form an attachment with Sirius more quickly than he would otherwise have done. Magda said: "3. For a kid who's not selfish or mean-spirited, it's amazing how clueless he can be about the big picture. Once he experienced Umbridge's "lines", he should have hightailed it to McGonagall immediately and told her about it, realizing that if she did it to him, she'd do it to everyone else too." Except, once again, adults have not really given Harry any reason to believe that they would intervene or do anything to curb his suffering. This is a boy who was exposed to extreme violence at the end of his fourth year and then relegated to silence and isolation for the entire summer at the bequest of his headmaster. (Out of everyone, only Hermione accurately predicted how much Harry would actually suffer as a result of this). This was a boy who was allowed to be subjected to the emotional violence of the Durselys for his entire childhood. Why would Harry think that any adult, even McGonnagal, would be a source of comfort? Magda said: "4. His lack of support for Ron in GOF and OOTP. Ron was hurting in GoF, thinking that Harry had cut him out of things; Harry never tried to get past Ron's barriers but instead got behind his own protective shield too, culminating in his yelling at Ron in the Common Room and throwing something at him, telling him that now he'd have his own scar too." Me: This is where I really differ. I find Ron one of the least sympathetic characters in the HP series exactly because he has had the benefit of a relatively well-adjusted childhood. At the point of his friend's greatest need, Ron Weasley's reaction was to assume that Harry (someone he had known for four years) was lying to him. Harry was right to be insulted and hurt. I also think it is asking too much of a 14 year old boy who is under such stress to be the bigger man and make the first move to make ammends when he actually had nothing to do with what caused the fight in the first place! Ron's only problem is his self-esteem. I find him a somewhat manipulative character and his tendency to want to play the victim makes him particularly unsympathetic to me (eg. `If you want to worry about anyone Hermione, worry about me' ? or something to that effect. Hermione's answer ? `why should I worry about you' was perfect IMHO). I wanted to give him a kick for his behaviour during the GoF argument. Had the tables been reversed, I think the majority would have been demanding Harry apologise for ever doubting such a loyal friend. Magda said: "As for OOTP, I think Harry could have done more for Ron's misery during the fall term when he was so bad at Quidditch and when he was trying to be a Prefect. At the very least Harry could have told the twins to ease up on the ragging; it's clear that Ron's fear of what the twins will say is a big part of his worries. Ron has his best game after the twins leave Hogwarts - coincidence? I think not. But again he did it largely on his own." Me: I think that this paints Ron into too much of a victim. There are two issues here ? the first being that neither the prefect position nor the Keeper position realistically belonged to Ron originally. He was second choice in both. Having then been given these two breaks, what did Ron choose to do? Feel sorry for himself! And this is the second issue. I don't believe that what Ron really needed was his best friends contributing to his condition by pandering to his worse excesses and encouraging him to depend on them to bolster his self- esteem. What he really needs (and what is in his best interest) is the impetus to start believing in himself of his own accord. I agree that it was not a coincidence that Ron's best game was after the twins left Hogwarts but what was the real difference? The difference, in my opinion, was all in his head. Sienna From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri May 27 06:14:55 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 06:14:55 -0000 Subject: Kreacher -workable solution? The more I think about it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rbookworm46" wrote: > Bookworm: > Reading your post, I wondered why Kreacher wouldn't be free after > Mrs. Black died. She was his mistress. > > If Kreacher is free now that Sirius is gone, does that mean that he > doesn't move to another blood relation? Is it because they don't > carry the Black name? Or because they are not in direct descent > from Sirius? > > Narcissa, Bellatrix, and Andromeda are direct descendents of > Sirius' grandparents and were born Blacks, so they seem to have as > much 'Black blood' as Sirius. Why don't you think one of them will > inherit Kreacher? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm bboyminn: What follows, of course, will be pure speculation, but hopeful somewhat reasonable and sound speculation. First point, I suspect much like inheritence under Common Law, a house elfs allegiance doesn't ascend or move sideways, typically it will alway decend unless there is no one left. So, to some extent we are back to arguing the nature of the inheritance of the Black Family Estate. I suspect, that since Sirius was the controlling Black decendant, that Kreacher's allegiance was automatically transferred to Sirius whether Kreacher liked it or not. Now that it has already decended to Sirius, it is no longer tranferable up or across the family line. Further, Kreacher is /enslaved/ to the House of Black which in a sense ties him to the family name as well as to a path of direct descendancy. Narcissa, by her marriage to Lucius Malfoy has become part of the House of Malfoy. Now, I think that Kreacher is now free because the downward path of the House of Black has ended. But Kreacher, as a free agent, is therefore free to commit his loyalty to the house of Malfoy. Just as Dobby transferred his allegiance to Dumbledore and Hogwarts, Kreacher is free to transfer his allegiance. True Dobby is still free, but he none the less has transferred his loyalty to Dumbledore. The problem is, all the immense headache and huge risk it causes for the Order, if Kreacher continues on on his own, or if he transfer his bondage to Narcissa Malfoy. If Kreacher continues to live, he ends up eating up a huge portion of the remaining storyline, and personally, I think it is time for the storyline to start shrinking, and for the many many pieces of the puzzle to start to be resolved. I just don't see room in the story for Kreacher or the trouble he will cause, so somehow, I have to come up with a way to get rid of him. As I suggested earlier in this thread, one quick and easy way is for Kreacher to just run away, and things that run away frequently end up living wild in the Forbidden Forest. But that seems like a pretty cheap (from a literary perspective), quick and easy solution. As a side note; I speculate that it is possible that Kreacher came to the House of Black with Mrs. Black marriage to Mr. Black; Sirius's father. So, both the Elf and his mistress, would have transferred their loyalty to the Blacks. That could account for his love of Mrs. Black who is not a true 'blood' Black, and his binding commitment to the Black family. As a side-side note, it would be nice to know Mrs. Black's maiden name. If it was Malfoy, we are screwed (pardon the French). Again, no matter how you slice it and dice it, Kreacher is a huge problem that needs to be solved. Just a few thoughts Steve/bboyminn From justcarol67 at yahoo.com Fri May 27 07:19:52 2005 From: justcarol67 at yahoo.com (justcarol67) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 07:19:52 -0000 Subject: Lusting After Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129582 Betsy wrote: > Wait, there's a "tell us why you find Snape sexy" thread and I > almost missed it?!? Heaven forfend! :) > > > In chapter eight of PS/SS, where Snape is first fully introduced, > JKR hits us with both barrels. The man *knows* how to command a > room. His voice, his sweeping up and down the isles, his knowledge, > his poetry! Snape had me from his first chapter. And he only got > better. > And people say it's all just Alan Rickman. Pshaw, I say. Yes, his > voice is *perfect*, but he's unfortunately a little too old (as most > of the adult actors are) for the part. I do like Rickman, but his > Snape is not mine. And despite a sad lack of Snape in the last > film, the Snape fandom is still going strong. So it ain't all > Rickman. Carol responds: For the fun of it, here's a snippet from a review of another Rickman film that was sent to me today that takes the other side of the argument: "And then there's the role that has brought him a new generation of admirers, the inscrutable Professor Snape in the Harry Potter series. In interviews, Potter author J.K. Rowling has said that she based Snape on a teacher of hers that she detested and that she can't quite fathom why Snape has become the hero of fan fiction (much of it erotic). Well, it's like this: you take Rickman, who doesn't look or sound like anybody else (that majestic nose, that creamy baritone), and you take his quirky blend of gracefulness and intense masculinity, and you take his skill at finding the humanness in his characters, whether that humanness is good, bad or ambiguous, and then you put all that in a long black wig and a frock coat, and what you have is a lot more interesting than just the scariest teacher at school." http://www.portlandphoenix.com/television/top_story/documents/03866737.asp The reviewer (who may or may not have read the books) does credit Book!Snape with being "inscrutable" (a large part of his appeal for fans of both sexes) but doesn't seem to realize that the "quirky blend of gracefulness and intense masculinity" is also straight from the book, transferred by Rickman to the screen. And I think Betsy would agree that what a schoolboy sees as a large hooked nose might be viewed by an adult witch (who hadn't taken Potions from Snape or did well in the course) as a "majestic nose." "Creamy baritone"? The "silky" voice is straight from the books. So, I would argue, is the humanness, especially after the Pensieve scene. This is a very complex--and ambiguous--man who is already, in the books, "much more than the scariest teacher at school," at least for those readers who can get beyond Harry's perspective. (But frock coat? Must be a reference to the duelling scene in the CoS film. It's the sweeping black robes and cloaks that make his dramatic exits possible, both in the films and the books. And that flair for the dramatic is also, I think, a large part of his appeal.) I won't even get into the surprisingly unSlytherin virtues of loyalty and courage (unmentioned by the reviewer and barely touched on in the films) or the many unanswered questions that even Harry, who hates Snape, wants answers to. He's an enigma and there, maybe, lies the secret of his appeal. Carol, who as an eleven-year-old would have been inspired to like Potions by that poetic speech and would have made it her dearest ambition not to be regarded as either a dunderhead or a know-it-all in Snape's class From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 27 09:30:23 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 09:30:23 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129583 Betsy: > I think you give McG way too much responsibility for controlling the > actions of her students--Dumbledore didn't exactly step in either and > stop Snape from being bullied, from what we've seen. It's likely > that his extent of knowledge of what was happening, given how much he > knows about what goes on in the school, was considerably larger, as > well. Gerry Well, I also think people should take into consideration this is the WW and the bullying took place in the 70's. I don't know about Britain, but here in Nederland bullying as a real problem that leaves deep emotional scars was not seen that way until at least a decade later. And even then there were lots of teachers who could not make the difference between a harmless bit of teasing and the real nastyness that children can do to each other. Before that, it was certainly frowned upon, and punished if noticed, but not something that serious. What complicated the issue here is also that Snape would fight back in a very nasty way. As we look at the pensieve scene, the marauders use very cruel, but essentially harmless hexes. Snape draws blood. From a superfical point of view, it is easy for teachers as well as students to take what James and Sirius do to him much lighter as what he does to James. After all [sarcasm] what they do is just a bit of harmless fun, just a laugh, two against one, not sporting lads. But look what a nasty hex he used, Snape that kind of behaviour is not tolerated. [/sarcasm]. You have to really understand emotional damage to see how bad it was what actually happened here. It is a quite common theme with bullying. The attacked kid lashes out, anything to make it stop and make them pay, but the way he does it not only gives him trouble with the adults, but also with the other kids. On the playground, the one who starts the physical violence is always in the wrong. It is the rare kid who sees through it. And what we see from the WW it is generally much harder, especially physically than the muggle world. Look at the accidents, look at the way children fight, the physical damage it causes. It is all remedied with a simple spell or a simple potion. So that makes for a rather casual attitude to physical damage. And I would not be surprised an even more causal attitude to emotional damage. Gerry From jamess at climaxgroup.com Fri May 27 10:37:40 2005 From: jamess at climaxgroup.com (James Sharman) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:37:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost Message-ID: <495A161B83F7544AA943600A98833B530634DC06@mimas> No: HPFGUIDX 129584 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I have felt since the first few books that Dumbledore will die before the end, it's the only way Harry will be forced to confront LV truly on his own. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Dean Thomas or His father. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Possibly that she and Lupin had something going on at school. But I'm not very sure about this. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Under the circumstances, I think the mighty Dumbledore may come in and do the job properly. If he does I'll be extra sure of my answer to 1. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Things will start to move with Luna. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Mrs Bones. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? It's been said before but I think probably a pensive. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No, getting out from snaps torment will help him gain confidence. I also believe this book will see nevil stand up to snape in some way. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Just enough to keep on track to become an Auora Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Neville will gain a new wand, and compatibility will show him to be far more adept than previously imagined. 2. A Dursley will show magical talent (But just a little) 3. The description of the lion guy will be from a pensive, I suspect it will be dean's real father 4. A strong reason for Luna's and her fathers flights of fancy will be revealed. 5. Draco's unswerving loyalty to his father will start to show cracks, or even be broken. From bob.oliver at cox.net Fri May 27 11:01:16 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 11:01:16 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > -Nora notes that we'll all have to rethink Snape in a month and a > half, and wonders how many people's images of the character will > survive (including her own) You've made this point several times on various threads, Nora, and I find it intriguing. I know predictions are always dangerous, especially (to quote the Zen master, Roshi Yogi Berra) about the future. Still, what kind of rethinking do you think will have to be done? If you were running a betting pool, on what would you bet? Anyone else want to comment? I'm talking about things that will be a "BANG" in the sense of really revealing important things about Snape's character and causing lots of people to rethink things. What would you bet on? My own suspicion is that Snape will turn out, much to many people's surprise, to be pretty much exactly what he appears to be -- a nasty and bitter individual who hates Gryffindors in general and Harry most of all, and who genuinely sides with DD but doesn't share a lot of his values. He will not be revealed as the good cop to DD's bad cop, as a respected and well-liked member of the faculty who jokes around in the faculty lounge, as a secret father-figure for Harry, or as someone who cares about Harry and Neville and is genuinely trying to teach valuable lessons. And I suspect the ultimate fate of the character will play out from that (non) revelation. Lupinlore From drednort at alphalink.com.au Fri May 27 11:11:51 2005 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:11:51 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42978D17.10252.18D932C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 129586 On 27 May 2005 at 11:01, lupinlore wrote: > You've made this point several times on various threads, Nora, and I > find it intriguing. I know predictions are always dangerous, > especially (to quote the Zen master, Roshi Yogi Berra) about the > future. Still, what kind of rethinking do you think will have to be > done? If you were running a betting pool, on what would you bet? > > Anyone else want to comment? I'm talking about things that will be a > "BANG" in the sense of really revealing important things about Snape's > character and causing lots of people to rethink things. What would > you bet on? A fascinating question. I don't generally make predictions - just not my thing - so I won't do that here, but in terms of things that would be very much a 'BANG", when it comes to Snape, there are a few things that would really cause me to reassess him. First of all, when it comes to Snape as a person. If it turns out he is still on the side of Voldemort, well, then, no fate could be too bad for him. He's been given a chance to redeem himself for his Deatheater past - if he blows it, that's the end - but I have to say, I'll be waiting until the end of the last book to make this judgement - if he was revealed as still on the side of evil in HBP, I'd be seriously wondering if he's just really deep cover (of course, I am also wondering - hoping! - somewhat the same thing about Percy). Secondly - Snape as a teacher. I am really interested in seeing the results his students obtained in their OWLS and I hope we get some insight. I defend Snape's teaching methods, partly because I believe they can be effective - if it turns out that everybody failed (absence the influence of Umbridge), I'd definitely need to reassess. However if they do well, I will feel quite vindicated (-8 Canon, I think, so far supports the idea that Snape does get good results - but we may get clearer evidence of this in the future. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From nrenka at yahoo.com Fri May 27 13:38:15 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:38:15 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > Lupinlore: > > Still, what kind of rethinking do you think will have to be > done? If you were running a betting pool, on what would you bet? I'm not the predicting kind, except in large trends, but I'll make an exception here (a little bit). All of these are likely to be wrong, and I have no deep attachment to any: I think that we-the-readers consistently underestimate what having been a Death Eater means, and I think that's going to be a large part of the rethinking. No Snape hanging back and doing potions research, or a poor boy who just wanted recognition and someone to believe in him, but a full-hearted participant in everything that went down. Snape has genuinely bloody hands and believed in it when he was doing it. This means that why he turned away from it is the key to the ending for the character. Contra Betsy's motivation-schmotivation :) the reasons characters do things are massively important in JKR's world and she has a tendency to look upon them with ire or favor consequently. [This is why present-day Draco doesn't look like he's heading in a good direction; she doesn't like him, although she made him, because of what he is and that certainly includes his motivations.] IF Snape turned for the wrong reasons and still holds the wrong ideals, a sticky end. IF not, something better. I'll also go out on a limb and say that I expect a general amount of dirt on the character. OotP was an author showing us something to make us think more sympathetically about him--which means he's primed for a complication/reversal, especially with the missing data about both schooldays (gang of Slytherins; the general climate at Hogwarts at the time) and activities afterwards. I also expect to find out what and why he's been behaving as he does at the school, and whether there are any of the oft-posited excuses for it. I'm skeptical. The big question "Is he back in the DEs circle or not?" goes 50/50...but... If Snape is NOT currently a DE in good standing and spying on Voldemort directly, a lot of the reasons for his behavior go out the window. What Snape Is Doing is another huge question to help resolve some of our arguments. In general, I still stand by my contention that at present none of us really 'know' Snape for sure, and the claims to do so and thus be able to be so deeply sympathetic to the character don't hold up under cross-examination. I expect this to change and the character to solidify, and the theories to go onto the GARBAGESCOW. And with the theories go a lot of the character's complexity, because it's more based on what's not there than what is. -Nora notes that there wasn't much BANG-y in there, but is more a fan of Diana than any other theory. Besides the inestimable Faith, who is properly not a theory. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Fri May 27 13:57:32 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:57:32 -0000 Subject: Kreacher and the HBP/ was Re: Kreacher -workable solution? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > First point, I suspect much like inheritence under Common Law, a house elfs allegiance doesn't ascend or move sideways, typically it will alway decend unless there is no one left. So, to some extent we are back to arguing the nature of the inheritance of the Black Family Estate. > > I suspect, that since Sirius was the controlling Black decendant, that Kreacher's allegiance was automatically transferred to Sirius whether Kreacher liked it or not. Now that it has already decended to Sirius, it is no longer tranferable up or across the family line. > snip) Tonks: Here is a thought. What if the Half-Blood prince is a decendant of the Blacks that we don't know about. A kid about Harry's age or a bit older. (Maybe Sirius' brother had a child and Sirius didn't know about it. He was in Azkaban all of that time, after all.) The kid went to school where the Dark Arts are taught and is an evil person. He gets the house and Kreacher. This would be a problem for the Order, of course. And these problems in some way lead to the death of... ?? And maybe the kid is a challenger for the position of Dark Lord. Tonks_op From jferer at yahoo.com Fri May 27 15:11:17 2005 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:11:17 -0000 Subject: HP/ Spoiler alert - Nothing New Here In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129589 mycropht33: "I personally have been a member of this group a long time, and have lurked for almost 2 years now (or better...can't even remember when I joined.) I am getting really tired of people using their "predictions" as some sort of flexing of intellectual muscle. An educated guess is an educated guess. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. Sorry for coming off cranky. It's just been a sore point for me for awhile now." You're not the only one. I'm a charter member and it makes me nuts, but there's no point complaining. It's not going to stop, any more than the Jack the Ripper theories will (27 suspect theories and counting). No one casting these theories ever seems deterred that their theories never, ever turn out. In the 18th and early 19th century a naturalist named Georges Cuvier claimed he could reconstruct an ancient animal through contemplation of just one bone. He was wildly wrong, as it turned out. While he could make a reasonable inference about a bone that attached to the one he had, his reconstruction of the next bone after that and the next one after that and so on quickly deteriorated into a flight of fancy. The uncertainties multiplied the further out he went from the starting point until his science was actually fantasy. A lot of HP theorizing is like that. There's only so much information that can be squeezed out of one datum. Actually, IMHO, there's other tools for analyzing the text than finding tiny little snippets on which castles are built. Here's a few, and I'd be delighted to see others added. Parallel literature: JKR's stories aren't the first stories set in a world where magic works, or in a world that exists in parallel to our own, or where there's time travel. How did this literature address the kinds of things JKR is giving us? Might it apply here? BTW, reading Harry as a history book can be fascinating, especially if the reader has read the history of war and conflict. I predicted once that in the fifth book (we didn't know the name) Voldemort would lay low, build up strength, and undermine Harry and Dumbledore as best he could. LV would try to keep the Ministry helpfully asleep with the aid of his agent of influence, Lucius Malfoy. I came up with this because that's what Che Guevara would have done (did), or any other cell leader. What would you do if this was your problem? Wizards are human, and magic is their science and technology. I wondered, "what would I do if my daughters got Hogwarts letters?" No responsible, loving Muggle parent would ship his kid off to a "wizardry school" (yeah, right) because he got a letter in green ink. If I was Headmaster, I'd have one of the Muggle families already in school visit and help the new family get over the shock. The wizard kid would take the new kids to Diagon Alley and show them around, that sort of thing. Later, in an interview, JKR said that people come visit the new families and explain everything. What is JKR's theme? Her themes strongly include love, courage and sacrifice. These are the truest things we know in the books. All theories should be seen in that light. And one other thing. Anybody who proposes a theory ought to be the first trying to punch holes in it. Jim Ferer From ellydan at yahoo.com Fri May 27 15:27:59 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 08:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] HBP contest: Rules Repost, Predictions In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050527152800.28432.qmail@web54608.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129590 > 1. Who will be the most major character to die? > I have to agree with many people that Dumbledore will be the one to die. This certainly follows the pattern of Tolkien, Star Wars, Arthurian legend where the mentor is no longer there for the hero to rely on and he must at the end stand on his own to face whatever evil &/or conflict that he must conquer. > > 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion > Guy," describe more.) > This one is a bit tougher. I think I'll hold to my earlier supposition that it is Hagrid. He is certainly half-giant. He will find out that he is related to the giants' equivalent of nobility and will help rally the giants against Voldemort through his birthright. > > 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be > eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I think if there is a reveal about Lily's secret it will be tied into how she saves Harry. We know that is has to do with her sacrificing herself for him. I think the secret will be that she knew that Harry was the child from the prophecy and realized that she would have to die in his place so that Voldemort could eventually be defeated. > 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I would love to be funny and say Snape finally. But I truly doubt that he will not continue as Potions Master. I would also like to think that Dumbledore would be as it could be a great time for the Headmaster to personally make sure that all of his students are highly trained in case of attack. But instead I'm going to say the old lion guy. (Unless Rowling is just putting up a description of a minor character as a red herring of sorts.) > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic > relationship? I'm still holding out for Hermione. I think she is the best match for Harry. > 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Well not Lucius Malfoy and I doubt Arthur Weasley will be made Minister. Just to be funny let's say Percy. > > 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP > cover? A penseive would make the most sense as we know that Harry's connection to Voldemort's mind is one of his greatest assets. If its not a penseive then certainly a device similar in usage. > 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? > Of course if he is to be an Auror. > > 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? It would certainly be infuriating to Snape if he did since he was one of his worst students. No I truly doubt Neville will be in Advanced Potions. Advanced Herbology most definately. > 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I wish I could remember how many are possible. I'm sure he will do fairly well. Not as good as Hermione but probably a touch better than Ron. > > > > > Predictions (0-10 points each): > Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory > Question > section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs > will *not* come > skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," > will receive no > credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in > his 6th year at > Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Just to incite a bit of shipping, I'm going to predict that Ron finally realizes that Luna fancies him and is flabbergasted and while he may not return her affections in this book he will certainly respect her more by the end. 2. Neville will find out about the prophecy and have to deal with his own feelings about almost being the chosen one of sorts. We know that Harry will be mulling these things over. Neville will as well as he sorts out his loyalties and finds more of his stalwart bravery. 3. We will find out why Alice Longbottom keeps giving Neville those particular chewing gum wrappers. I have a feeling that they have more significance than just a present from his mother who has lost her wits. 4. Draco will have reorganize his sympathies. His father is in Azkaban which I'm sure he will blame Harry for as well as the multiple hexes he received at the end of 5th year. This boy who has been spoiled rotten will have to realize that not everything revolves around him or else throw in his loyalties as well with Voldemort. 5. One of Fred & George's strange inventions will definately have some particular use in the book as far as in the war effort. I'd like to think that they are not only making wonderful joke products but also things that could be used as weapons (although not so lethal). Let's see how these turn out! BlueAsrai __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 27 15:38:07 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:38:07 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophierom" wrote: > > I think, however, that the house-elves must ultimately have the choice > to serve rather than the compulsion to serve. If they are the ones > who place magical bonds on themselves, so long as they can also take > the bonds away, then I'll agree with you: house-elves aren't slaves > but free servants. But IMHO, house-elves will continue to be slaves > (no matter who or what enslaves them) until they have the choice to > make their own futures. I think I've said this before (I'm very > repetitive!), but I do believe that, in a story that revolves around > the power of choice and free will, the house-elves' lack of choice > represents a real problem. The poor treatment of house-elves is a > symptom of this problem, but it is the lack of choice that is the > fundamental illness here. -- Winky and Kreacher have some serious > emotional issues. They are not "fine"; they are incredibly unhappy. > This may be because of the mistreatment, and it could be argued that > if they hadn't been mistreated, then they'd be fine. But at the risk > of repeating myself, how is it possible to make someone like Mrs. > Black respect house-elves when she doesn't respect other humans? Is it > possible to make Malfoy respect house-elves when he doesn't even > respect Muggleborns? And if it's not possible to reform the wizard, > what happens to that house-elf? Dobby was able to get out of a bad > situation. Other house-elves might not be so lucky. Finwitch: Well, Kreacher was unhappy due to having been alone for too long (because Mrs Black died and Sirius was in Azkaban) and a bit insane for it as well. Still, Kreacher *does* show great affection to Sirius' Parents and even that Mrs Black-Lestrange... Though I suppose that with a *choice* to leave when he so wished, would have meant that Kreacher would have gone to Narcissa even before Sirius escaped. (and therefore not been a security risk to the order and annoyance to Sirius...) As for Winky, she's unhappy because she was freed. If freedom ever was her choice, she wouldn't have left Mr. Crouch. (And quite possibly, Voldemort wouldn't have succeeded in Imperio'ing Winky's master and we would have no Harry in tournament for GoF...) As for Dobby, we cannot know how long he would have chosen to stay... Anyway, I think the house-elves have ways. If they *really* want to be freed, I think they would strike until freed. A strike - meaning not doing anything unless specifically ordered, and even then taking the order in manner with worst result to the master. I suppose that would eventually result to freedom, death or better conditions. And of course, any decent wizard would free an elf by mere request. Even if the Ministry would issue some law about treating the elves (we don't know they haven't) how would it be controlled? I don't see a Malfoy respecting any laws... these people kill and torture for fun, remember? I think that while only the master has - formally and nominally - the power to END the employment (aside from tricks like Dobby&Harry -- or bad behaviour as Kreacher tried to do) - it may be that only an elf can BEGIN it. It is apparent to me that Dobby has began a servitude to Harry; his bound to Malfoys tied him not to be good at it, but... yes, I'd say Dobby's already bound to Harry. He's accepted employment at Hogwarts - for *pay*, with days off - and using, supposedly, all of that pay, days off and even some of his official duty-time to serve Harry. Any oppurtunity he gets, that is. Think of those elves in the fairy tale who - secretly, at night - were serving the cobbler until given clothes in gratitude? That the humans aren't exactly supposed to even notice them, just their work? Look at Hogwarts - the elves there are happily doing the work. (I think Dumbledore WOULD let them off if they asked) - most students didn't know house-elves *existed*, that house-elves clean up and serve the food - until Hermione's SPEW brought that matter into light. I think Hermione has serious trouble understanding house-elves. "You should have time off, paid..." and Winky (and frankly, all but Dobby) find the notion insulting. Because as I see it, house-elves define their self-worth by the work they do. Dobby has chosen a master who - due to being a minor and living amongst Muggles - cannot be served by a house-bound elf (so Dobby took this temporary binding with Harry's school)... but a free school-elf can, so Dobby's being that... Finwitch From finwitch at yahoo.com Fri May 27 16:22:54 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:22:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione cheating over Trevor? In-Reply-To: <2ba2d8096c067bb0bb92e4ca60f73800@fandm.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley: > > Betsy, who thinks Neville garnered quite a bit of talk in the staff > > room and probably caused many professors a great deal of frustration > > as they tried to bring out his true potential. > > *grins* Ah, yes . . . I can picture it now: > > McGonagall: "That Neville Longbottom! I've tried everything I can > think of, and *still* he shows no improvement!" > Hagrid: "Tell me about it. Boy's a ruddy disaster." > Flitwick: "He's got no self-confidence, that's the problem! I just try > to be as encouraging as possible with him." > McGonagall: "Is that all? Personally, I think what he needs is a > structured environment and a firm hand -- that'll sort him out. What > do you think, Severus?" > Snape: "Well, yesterday I tried to poison his toad." > McGonagall: *looks fascinated* "Did it work?" > Snape: *bored sigh* "No." Finwitch: What a funny thing, but what about the teacher in whose class Neville does well... Sprout: "Now really, I have never had any problems. Dear Neville is so nice and sweet. He really excels in my class, and tends his Mimbulus Mimbletonia really well. I think he's even better dealing with plants than that bookworm Hermione Granger. Really, just needs the right environment to grow - encouragement, trust - not too much nor too less of expectation - not too much at once... Such nastiness without proper sunlight would work for Devil's Snare, but there's nothing Devilish in Neville. That boy's a saint..." Sprout certainly knows how to deal with Neville, and I haven't heard anyone *else* complaining about her classes, either. And same goes for Lupin. I'm positive Lupin would also recommend encouragement and kindness. That's how he taught Neville to deal with the Boggart... Finwitch From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri May 27 17:33:29 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 17:33:29 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129593 Lupinlore: > You've made this point several times on various threads, Nora, and I > find it intriguing. I know predictions are always dangerous, > especially (to quote the Zen master, Roshi Yogi Berra) about the > future. Still, what kind of rethinking do you think will have to be > done? If you were running a betting pool, on what would you bet? > > Anyone else want to comment? I'm talking about things that will be a "BANG" in the sense of really revealing important things about Snape's character and causing lots of people to rethink things. What would you bet on? Pippin: I think in this book or the next we will find out something about Snape's ancestry, probably that he is not entirely human. This will bring the issue which currently revolves around the House Elves to a more general level; how should the norms of behavior be applied to beings who were never taken into account when those norms were developed? Pippin From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 27 18:19:33 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:19:33 -0000 Subject: Ancestry of Snape (Re: Admonishing Snape)_ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129594 > Pippin: > I think in this book or the next we will find out something about > Snape's ancestry, probably that he is not entirely human. My guess is that he is entirely human, but not pureblood. Based on a comment in a JKR interview in which she explicitely states he is not muggleborn as they cannot be DE's. Gerry From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Fri May 27 18:26:58 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:26:58 -0000 Subject: Kreacher -workable solution? The more I think about it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > First point, I suspect much like inheritence under Common Law, a house > elfs allegiance doesn't ascend or move sideways, typically it will > alway decend unless there is no one left. So, to some extent we are > back to arguing the nature of the inheritance of the Black Family Estate. It would be really interesting if Sirius did leave a will and left all his posessions, including Kreacher to Harry. Not only will it be very interesting how Harry deals with it. How will Hermione react that one of her best friens now owns a house-elf who is obviously too dangerous to set free. This is a plot-turn I would really like to see. Gerry From k.coble at comcast.net Fri May 27 18:27:31 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (mycropht33) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:27:31 -0000 Subject: Comparative Lit Analysis Predictions WAS Re: HP/ Spoiler alert In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > mycropht33: "I personally have been a member of this group a long > time, and have lurked for almost 2 years now (or better...can't even > remember when I joined.) I am getting really tired of people using > their "predictions" as some sort of flexing of intellectual muscle. An > educated guess is an educated guess. It doesn't necessarily mean anything. > > Sorry for coming off cranky. It's just been a sore point for me for > awhile now." > > You're not the only one. I'm a charter member and it makes me nuts, > but there's no point complaining. It's not going to stop, any more > than the Jack the Ripper theories will (27 suspect theories and > counting). No one casting these theories ever seems deterred that > their theories never, ever turn out. > Actually, IMHO, there's other tools for analyzing the text than > finding tiny little snippets on which castles are built. Here's a few, > and I'd be delighted to see others added. Funny--I got into this group because I thought it was going to be more comparative Lit Analysis than it has turned into. I've already gone into one tirade in the last month on another group about the villainy of prooftexting when analyzing literature. Trying to not go into it here again. My theory on the books? I like to leave the mechanics to JKR, because she's telling a damn good story as is and I trust her to keep doing so. In a nutshell I think the overall point of the books is to serve as a combination Morality Play and fable about the villainy of class warfare and jingoism. From k.coble at comcast.net Fri May 27 18:32:17 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 13:32:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Kreacher -workable solution? The more I think about it. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <171572ad5ee3ce7dedb5f2b4ae51121b@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129597 On May 27, 2005, at 1:26 PM, festuco wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > First point, I suspect much like inheritence under Common Law, a > house > > elfs allegiance doesn't ascend or move sideways, typically it will > > alway decend unless there is no one left. So, to some extent we are > > back to arguing the nature of the inheritance of the Black Family > Estate. > > It would be really interesting if Sirius did leave a will and left all > his posessions, including Kreacher to Harry. Not only will it be very > interesting how Harry deals with it. How will Hermione react that one > of her best friens now owns a house-elf who is obviously too dangerous > to set free. > > This is a plot-turn I would really like to see. > K: I completely agree. I think that this would be truly interesting. I'd also like to see how Ron would react to Harry receiving MORE bounty. I think that such an inheritance may be the thing that pushes Ron into a Judas role. Not that I hope that happens. In fact I fervently hope it DOESN'T happen. But I can see signs in the plot that point to that. I keep hoping, though, that I've misread those signs. (First one that comes to mind is Ron's unbecoming poutyfest about the Niffler and the Leprachaun gold.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 27 18:57:09 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 18:57:09 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129598 > Sophierom: > > I think you're giving "slaves" far too little credit. According to the > American Heritage Dictionary, justice is "a. The principle of moral > rightness; equity. b. Conformity to moral rightness in action or > attitude; righteousness." Slavery is most definitely unjust; but to > argue that slaves can't understand justice because they suffer > injustice is not supportable by human history. Obviously house- elves > are not completely analogous to human slave societies, but there are > parallels worth considering. Consider enslaved African Americans; > they most definitely had a sense of justice in their communities. Many > of the oral histories, spirituals, and folk tales from the Antebellum > period are rife with calls for justice. One of the most famous > spirituals, "Go Down Moses," is perhaps one of the most powerful calls > for justice in United States history. While a spiritual may not be a > formal "law" or "treatise" on the subject of justice, it is as clear > (if not clearer) understanding of justice as anything written into the > laws of this or any other country. > > We don't know enough about house-elf culture to say if they have a > "formal" understanding for justice, but to dismiss the possibility > that they understand the concept simply because they are slaves is, I > think, rather unjust. ;-D a_svirn: I do not give too little credit to slaves. I give too little credit to slavery. For someone whose existence unjust and unequal there is no such thing as "principle of moral rightness". There is no place of righteousness and justice in their "culture" because the only justice that is allowed is that of their master and owner. They can carry out executions and punishment, but they do not judge. (I wouldn't be surprised is members of the Black family ordered their elves to perform beheadings, in which case the would butcher their own close kin). Slaves have feelings but they are not taken into consideration, they are not allowed opinions (of course they have them anyway, but they are obliged to keep them to themselves). As for spirituals they do not convey any "sense of justice". (Since when justice is a "sense" anyway? You yourself said it is a principle). What they do convey is a sense of INjustice, the heart-wrenching sorrow of enslavement. And since we are on the subject on justice, why do you propose that justice should catch up with Kreacher? Was it moral or right for Sirius to own, use and abuse him, just because he wasn't human? Was it OK for him to use Kreacher as a convenient outlet for his pent-up frustration? I think not. And I'd say that justice was done already ? in the Department of Mysteries. I wouldn't call it sweet, but it wasn't without a certain poetic quality. > Sophierom: > A servant does not have to be a slave. > Dobby continues to serve, by choice; he serves Harry, and he serves > the larger Hogwarts community. Although servant has become a word that > connotes inferiority in our culture, to be a servant is actually to be > of help or of service to someone in need. Dobby's acts of service to > Harry are quite honorable because he chooses, of his own free will, to > be a servant. For those who choose to see Christian elements in the > series, Dobby's choice to serve is reminiscent of the Christian call > to service. a_svirn: I'm sorry, but he does NOT serve Harry. He is making him favours as a friend and social equal. Big difference. And I must say I cannot agree with your unconventional construction of the word "servant". Neither would Dobby, by the way ? he calls himself an "employee". a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 27 19:04:01 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:04:01 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129599 --- > bboyminn: >> Sadly, typical colonial Europeans, the wizards are very much operating > under and perpetuating a 'slave' mentality in themselves and among the > elves. I still take the stand that the only thing holding elves to > their service is a rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, > tradition, and loyalty. Not force of law, not force of magic, but the > elves own rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, > tradition, and loyalty. I can't say that magic plays NO role, but for > the most part, it is the elves unwavering commitment that binds them > to service. > a_svirn: Do you mean to say that Dumbledore was blatantly lying when he claimed that elves are forced to wizards bidding by the enchantments of their kind? a-svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 27 19:10:59 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 19:10:59 -0000 Subject: Kreacher -workable solution? The more I think about it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > First point, I suspect much like inheritence under Common Law, a house > > elfs allegiance doesn't ascend or move sideways, typically it will > > alway decend unless there is no one left. So, to some extent we are > > back to arguing the nature of the inheritance of the Black Family > Estate. > > It would be really interesting if Sirius did leave a will and left all > his posessions, including Kreacher to Harry. Not only will it be very > interesting how Harry deals with it. How will Hermione react that one > of her best friens now owns a house-elf who is obviously too dangerous > to set free. > > This is a plot-turn I would really like to see. > > Gerry I think Hermione will react as before: try to find a compromise between her fine principles and very practical reluctance to get into the serious row with Harry over someone like Kreacher. a_svirn From lhuntley at fandm.edu Fri May 27 20:00:17 2005 From: lhuntley at fandm.edu (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:00:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129601 a_svirn: > And I must say I cannot > agree with your unconventional construction of the word "servant". > Neither would Dobby, by the way ? he calls himself an "employee". Unconventional construction? I hardly think the definition of the word itself could be called "unconventional". There is a *huge* difference between being a slave and being a servant, the most important of which is that a servant is *free*. I agree that the idea of serving others as a career has been demonized by Western culture, but the fact remains that a servant is by no means a slave. Don't make me go get a dictionary. ^_~ Laura http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 27 20:08:35 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:08:35 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: > a_svirn: > > And I must say I cannot > > agree with your unconventional construction of the word "servant". > > Neither would Dobby, by the way ? he calls himself an "employee". > > Unconventional construction? I hardly think the definition of the word > itself could be called "unconventional". There is a *huge* difference > between being a slave and being a servant, the most important of which > is that a servant is *free*. I agree that the idea of serving others > as a career has been demonized by Western culture, but the fact remains > that a servant is by no means a slave. > > Don't make me go get a dictionary. ^_~ > > Laura > http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley I do claim that saying: "to be a servant is actually to be of help or of service to someone in need" is unconventional. I defy you to find such a meaning in any dictionary. a_svirn From k.coble at comcast.net Fri May 27 20:46:11 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:46:11 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f4fd434542f9488a9d345d821c018db@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129603 On May 27, 2005, at 3:08 PM, a_svirn wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley > wrote: > > a_svirn: > > > And I must say I cannot > > > agree with your unconventional construction of the > word "servant". > > > Neither would Dobby, by the way ? he calls himself an "employee". > > > > Unconventional construction?? I hardly think the definition of the > word > > itself could be called "unconventional".? There is a *huge* > difference > > between being a slave and being a servant, the most important of > which > > is that a servant is *free*.? I agree that the idea of serving > others > > as a career has been demonized by Western culture, but the fact > remains > > that a servant is by no means a slave. > > > > Don't make me go get a dictionary. ^_~ > > > > Laura > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley > > > I do claim that saying: "to be a servant is actually to be of help > or of service to someone in need" is unconventional. I defy you to > find such a meaning in any dictionary. > > a_svirn > K: But we should all be servants to our fellow human beings. Demonized though the concept has become. I understand that Laura is using a very arcane definition of "servant", but one which finds itself expressed throughout Judeo-Christian literature. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Fri May 27 20:58:10 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 20:58:10 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: <9f4fd434542f9488a9d345d821c018db@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129604 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > On May 27, 2005, at 3:08 PM, a_svirn wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura Ingalls Huntley > > wrote: > > > a_svirn: > > > > And I must say I cannot > > > > agree with your unconventional construction of the > > word "servant". > > > > Neither would Dobby, by the way ? he calls himself an "employee". > > > > > > Unconventional construction?? I hardly think the definition of the > > word > > > itself could be called "unconventional".? There is a *huge* > > difference > > > between being a slave and being a servant, the most important of > > which > > > is that a servant is *free*.? I agree that the idea of serving > > others > > > as a career has been demonized by Western culture, but the fact > > remains > > > that a servant is by no means a slave. > > > > > > Don't make me go get a dictionary. ^_~ > > > > > > Laura > > > http://www.livejournal.com/users/laurahuntley > > > > > > I do claim that saying: "to be a servant is actually to be of help > > or of service to someone in need" is unconventional. I defy you to > > find such a meaning in any dictionary. > > > > a_svirn > > > > K: But we should all be servants to our fellow human beings. > Demonized though the concept has become. I understand that Laura is > using a very arcane definition of "servant", but one which finds itself > expressed throughout Judeo-Christian literature. > Could you perhaps elaborate a bit? Was there an eleventh commandment added to the Decalogue recently? "Thau shalt be of service to thy neighbor?" (Although servants are mentioned in the 10th aren't they? As a "*thing* that is thy neighbor's" (emphasis mine). a_svirn From editor at texas.net Fri May 27 20:59:36 2005 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 15:59:36 -0500 Subject: The Geist Predicts, was Re: Admonishing Snape References: Message-ID: <002c01c562fe$fe9c5280$5d59aacf@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129605 :::a wispy vapor drifts into the room. Too late, it notices that there is a large fan in the corner! Although she struggles, she feels herself pulled into the suction of the air currents....::: Lupinlore: > You've made this point several times on various threads, Nora, and I > find it intriguing. I know predictions are always dangerous, > especially (to quote the Zen master, Roshi Yogi Berra) about the > future. Still, what kind of rethinking do you think will have to be > done? If you were running a betting pool, on what would you bet? > > Anyone else want to comment? I'm talking about things that will be a > "BANG" in the sense of really revealing important things about Snape's > character and causing lots of people to rethink things. What would > you bet on? Damn. *sigh* Okay. ::eyes limb and wonders how much weight it will support::: We will finally hear that Snape is not a vampire, has never been a vampire, isn't going to be a vampire, hasn't shared any barroom stories with vampires, his mother wasn't frightened by a vampire, and he casts a mean reflection in a mirror. [We will hear this in some inarguable form that will not cause people to see the light, renounce the error of their ways, publicly confess, and then later publicly recant the confession and gleefully fall back into their former evil ways.] We will learn that he did love Lily; but by that I mean *he* loved *her,* likely from afar, unless he managed to say something and was let down easy. I don't think they ever had a relationship. [I still think part of the strength of the venom he associates with James is due to some neat sublimation, where he associates all the negative of being let down to James, and all the positive feelings that remain to Lily. Also the very deep fear that Lily may have told James; can you imagine his (even imagined) humiliation, to even consider that James *knew* and could have laughed?] I think JKR will think of some mechanism as brilliant as Occlumency lessons, to make Harry and Snape learn still more of each other, without getting one iota closer. I think Snape will be injured or otherwise damaged through some attempt to protect Harry, which Harry does not understand and therefore fights, causing it to go awry. I think Harry will fatally misunderstand some action of Snape's, and act based on his own interpretation of it, to the great harm of both Harry, Snape, and the cause. JKR depends on Harry's misinterpretation of things as a plot driver; and this is prime territory. For example, I will be genuinely surprised should Snape honestly turn out to be wholeheartedly supporting Voldemort--but since he must give that impression, and Harry is so ready to believe it, we will likely see more ambiguity (if not wilfull disbelief on Harry's part) leading to mishap. I think Snape will have to mentally "shield" Harry from Voldemort at some point, requiring Harry to trust him, and putting Snape at great risk of being caught doing so--for only with help from someone as skilled as Snape would Harry be able to lie or even hold his own in a conversation with Voldemort (unless Harry's signed up for Kwikspell's Occlumency program over the summer). I think Snape has been part of an extensive set of father figures for Harry; he has been the aspect of father that a child least appreciates. The disciplinarian, who just doesn't understand, who catches you doing wrong and will not let you off the hook and whom you therefore resent because you know he's at least a little bit right. This aspect is appreciated as maturity increases--and I think Harry is fighting that emotional maturity because to do otherwise would make him have to realize his own causative role in Sirius' death. [Harry's doing a neat bit of sublimation himself, associating all the negative with Snape, who really had nothing to do with it, allowing both himself and Dumbledore to "walk free."] ANYway, I think in either book 6 or book 7, Snape will die; and it will only be then that Harry will realize the positives he got from their relationship. And yes, I think Snape will die before that infamous last word "scar": all of his character looks backward. He gives me the impression of someone whose goals are not ahead, except to rectify mistakes made, and who does not care much if he dies in that attempt. He can't let the past go, because that's where he lives; I think he accepted long ago that the future holds only one task for him and nothing else, and so has made no effort to move past the past that defined that future. I would love to see Harry and Snape see each other for each other, and not for the associations that each have built for the other--but I doubt I will. ::: the shreds of vapor emerge from the other side of the fan and reform. The hazy shape hurriedly heads out the door on that side of the room, making a mental effort to remind the elves that they left the Snapefan on again.::: ~Amandageist From marilynpeake at cs.com Fri May 27 03:40:55 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 03:40:55 -0000 Subject: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129606 Angie: > First, we don't know if Harry would have needed glasses had the > AK curse not been performed on him. > Seems like there is a line from one of the books, as part of the > narrative, that says so something like, for nothing was Harry the > youngest Quidditch player in a century; he had a knack for seeing > things others didn't." Is that because of his glasses or in spite > of them? Marilyn: Perhaps J.K. Rowling meant for Harry Potter's sight impairment to carry a similar meaning as blindness in ancient Greek literature. I found the following statement regarding the use of blindness in Classical Age literature: "In the literature of the Classical Age, there are sightless geniuses - but, their genius is of a special variety. The gods, after having punished them with blindness, reward them with extraordinary gifts in partial compensation. Though these gifts are almost always of a kind that the seeing can also have, the difference lies in that when a blind person acquires them, it is on account of his blindness. The gods pity him and so they grant him this compensation, grant it to him entirely." - From: http://www.planetkilmer.com/rr/august2001/valteamo/ Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From sesc03 at web.de Fri May 27 06:58:44 2005 From: sesc03 at web.de (sesc79) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 06:58:44 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: comments wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "njelliot2003" wrote: > Draco Malfoy will also die though his death may be held over till > book 7. The canonical evidence for Draco's death is terrifically > sound ? in PS, the first Fat Lady password Harry hears is "Caput > Draconis" (pg. 96). Caput means dead doesn't it? It did in the > Comic Book German we used at school. No it doesn't. Sorry :-) That is, "kaputt" *in German* means 'destroyed' / 'beat-up' / 'kaput :)'. So that would fit your theory more or less, although a German native speaker would rarely use it to mean 'dead' (well, I wouldn't). *In Latin*, however, - which we are dealing with in this case, after all -, "caput" means 'head' -- quite something else. One might argue, of course, that this foreshadows Draco Malfoy's head being presented on a platter at some point (quite like John the Baptist in the bible)... not sure that this is the end I want for Draco... /Sebastian (first post to this group, if I'm not mistaken, so: hello everyone!) From k.coble at comcast.net Fri May 27 21:40:47 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:40:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25d47c44beed6440945e426ca271c564@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129608 On May 27, 2005, at 3:58 PM, a_svirn wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > wrote: > > > > > K:? But we should all be servants to our fellow human beings.? > > Demonized though the concept has become.?? I understand that Laura > is > > using a very arcane definition of "servant", but one which finds > itself > > expressed throughout Judeo-Christian literature. > > > > Could you perhaps elaborate a bit? Was there an eleventh commandment > added to the Decalogue recently? "Thau shalt be of service to thy > neighbor?" (Although servants are mentioned in the 10th aren't they? > As a "*thing* that is thy neighbor's" (emphasis mine). > > a_svirn > > > K: Well, first in the bibles themselves..... How about the book of Phillippians, which discusses humility, chiefly the humility of Christ? Then there is the entire book of Philemon, which concerns the slave Onesimus and how he is to be treated by his master. Or, perhaps looking for an even older reference, how about Proverbs 31, where the virtuous woman is one who gets up early and serves her household--including those that are in her employ. Then, the great works of literature influenced by these ideals. For instance, Jean ValJean in Les Miserables. Although he is the mayor of the town, he labours in servitude to Fantine, the woman he _inadvertently_ wronged. Service, and servanthood, are not bad things. There are such things as "servant-leaders", although the concept may seem incongrouous. By humbling oneself to administer to the needs of another, the servant leads through the act of grace. House-elves themselves are perhaps good examples of this in some contexts. In others, their devotion borders on madness (cf. Winky and Kreacher). I think that the larger context of the story depends on the power that servants have to lead, and it may come to that. Oh yeah, another example of servant leadership in Judeo Christian literature is the twofold example of Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee in LOTR. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From buckbeak1391 at yahoo.com Fri May 27 21:06:08 2005 From: buckbeak1391 at yahoo.com (buckbeak1391) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 21:06:08 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Flying Motorcycle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129609 I think that Sirius's old motorcycle was transfigured into Buckbeak. Hagrid had the motorcycle last, and he also had Buckbeak. Also, Buckbeak seemed very trusting of Sirius when he escaped on his back, even though Sirius doesn't bow. "buckbeak1391" From k.coble at comcast.net Fri May 27 21:48:54 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 16:48:54 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1c6d8f136c860f93a2d11174c01f7ecb@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129610 On May 27, 2005, at 4:06 PM, buckbeak1391 wrote: > ??? I think that Sirius's old motorcycle was transfigured into > Buckbeak. Hagrid had the motorcycle last, and he also had Buckbeak. > Also, Buckbeak seemed very trusting of Sirius when he escaped on > his back, even though Sirius doesn't bow. > > > "buckbeak1391" > > Then how come Hagrid or someone else didn't transfigure Buckbeak back and avoid the heartache of the trial? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboyminn at yahoo.com Fri May 27 23:28:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:28:36 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice - Nature of Elf Enslavement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" wrote: > --- > > bboyminn: > >> Sadly, typical colonial Europeans, the wizards are very much > > operating under and perpetuating a 'slave' mentality in themselves > > and among the elves. I still take the stand that the only thing > > holding elves to their service is a rigid fierce unwavering sense > > of honor, commitment, tradition, and loyalty. Not force of law, > > not force of magic, but the elves own rigid fierce unwavering > > sense of honor, commitment, tradition, and loyalty. I can't say > > that magic plays NO role, but for the most part, it is the elves > > unwavering commitment that binds them to service. > > > a_svirn: > > Do you mean to say that Dumbledore was blatantly lying when he > claimed that elves are forced to wizards bidding by the enchantments > of their kind? > > a-svirn bboyminn: No, quite the opposite, Dumbledore is making my point for me. The first part of my statement above, is that wizard are perpetuating a 'slave' mentality in themselves and the elves, because perpetuating that mentality gives power to the slave owner, and re-enforces their own self-serving interests. The second part of my statement about what binds an elf to his master, is not necessarily contradicted by what Dumbledore says. In fact, in my mind, my own statement is re-enforced by Dumbledore's. The question is the nature of the 'enchantments of their kind'. The first and most important point is that it is 'their enchantments', the Elves enchantments, that bind them, not enchantments by the Master wizards or the Ministry or general magic. By envoking /their/ enchantments, Elves are placing themselves in slavery. Although, I don't think Elves intend it to be true slavery. They intend it to be honorable and loyal service. It is wizards who have taken advantage of the situation and manipulated the elves commitment with a /slave mentality/ in order for the wizards to thoroughly oppress and maintain power and control over the elves. Now to the nature of these /enchantments/. I contend that what binds an elf is a rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, tradition, history, and loyalty. The Elves make a commitment to their masters, in a sense, they swear an oath of allegiance and service to a master, and further to his House, and his family through all current and subsequent generation. To break this oath is the greatest shame and failure that a house-elf can ever incur. To break this oath, is not only to betray his own word and honor, but to betray his entire species. To fail, is not only to fail himself and to fail his master, but to fail his family, his ancestors, the history and honor of his race, and to betray the very core essence of his kind. That goes along way toward explaining Winky's reaction to being released from service to Mr. Crouch. She wasn't simply being fired, she was failing in the most complete and dishonorable way an elf could be digrace. In her eyes, she betrayed her mother, and her mother's mother, she failed to serve her master honorably and completely, and in doing so, she betrayed the very core essense of her race. Such thorough and complete dishonor and disgrace is not an easy thing to recover from. Dobby, on the otherhand, was not released from service for /failure/ of service, but by a fortuitous sequence of events. He got what he wanted without the disgrace of failing to serve his master. Wizards have taken advantage of this core essense and unwavering commitment by re-enforcing the 'slave mentality'. This is standard fair for anyone who wants to retain complete control and power over someone else. You oppress them, you suppress them, you drum into them with unending unwavering vigor the idea that you are all powerful and that they are ignorant, worthless, and most importantly powerless. You do everything possible to make sure you instill in your servants a sense of weakness and powerlessness. You keep them as ignorant, as docile and servile as possible, because that keeps the wizards in control. Further, it re-enforces the wizard own self-proclaimed, self-deluded, self-important god-like sense of power and superiority. So, in a small sense, the elves over many generation have been brainwashed to forget that it was by their own choice that they entered the service of their master. They have been endoctrinated into accepting their ill-treatment and absolute servitude by self-serving wizards. This has spanned so many generations that Elves have encorporated that attitude into their own belief system. However, if nothing holds the elf but his own choice and his own sworn oath, then in reality, it is nothing but centuries of tradition and indoctrination that prevent him from leaving. The magic is in the tradition, history, and honor of elves and in the oath he/she swore. But I content that if you can choose to serve, then oath or no oath, tradition and history or not, honor or no, you can choose to leave. But that is something that wizard, to their own self-service, will deny and defend to their death rather than allow the elves to realize it. Side note - Hermione's Solution In the deranged and unfinished world of my own fan fiction, in a very very late chapter of an extremely long and unfinished story, Percy and Hermione band together to solve the elves' problem First, they get the Ministry to acknowledge that Elves are sentient creatures, capable of complex language, and capable of complex independant thinking. Next, after a particularly horrendous and egregious incidence of human slave, even worse, child slavery, Percy and Hermione introduce legislation to ban slavery and make is a serious crime. To that legislation, Herione attaches a clause that deals with house-elves. That puts the prominent members of government and the community in a difficult position. If they aren't willing to acknowledge that Elves are sentient, self-determined, and free creatures, then they are conversely implying the elves are slaves and that wizards indeed are participating in and perpetuating slavery. The wizard world might be slightly behind the modern world, but they aren't so far behind that prominent members of government are going to openly and publicly endorse slavery. So, pardon the French, they are screwed. They are force to acknowledge that Elves are indeed self-determined and free. Further Percy and Hemione, adds to the legislation, ammendments that define the nature of fair and reasonable service by House-Elves, and penalties for wizards who failing to adhere to these standards. Hermione...you go girl. At least that's how you go in my book. That IS my story, and I AM sticking to it. Steve/bboyminn From ladypensieve at yahoo.com Fri May 27 23:43:43 2005 From: ladypensieve at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:43:43 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice - Nature of Elf Enslavement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Now to the nature of these /enchantments/. I contend that what binds an elf is a rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, tradition, history, and loyalty. I also believe that the house-elves have much more to do, probably in the last book. Although I don't quite agree with your version. In my mind, if there were a history, Hermione would know it and find it. Try though she may, we see no explanation of these creatures. Dumbledore's comment makes it clear that it is through their own desire that they serve wizard-kind. Why? To my mind, it is because before the history of wizards, there were the elves and they were nastier than any goblin or mountain troll could ever be. It's not that they didn't have honor, commitment,etc. It was because of that honor..the honor biding them to protect their 'village' against any other, that they finally realized that annihilating themselves wasn't the answer. Perhaps they all of it began because they destroyed humans without meaning to. At that point, they realized it was time to change - and being honorable, they took what was left of mankind and gave them powers, promising to serve them until their penance was paid. Then, through this enchantment...they simply forgot. In my scenario, Dobby will be the one to save Harry, if he needs it. In the end, Hermione will get her wish - all house-elves will be free, if they so choose it. Remember in COS when Dobby asks Harry if there's anything he can do for him for getting him his freedom - Harry asks Dobby never to try to save his life again! Think about those ramifications. Sort of a good thing that Dobby doesn't follow the rules, huh? KathyO From BrwNeil at aol.com Sat May 28 01:00:31 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (brwneil) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:00:31 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129613 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I can't see all the Weasleys surviving till the end of the series. I think in book six we will lose Bill. That way Molly can regret that she complained about his long hair and earrings. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Hagrid and I hope I'm wrong because I've grown very tired of the character. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) I think that the true reason that Snape hates Harry's father is that he stole Lily from Snape. I'm not saying they necessarily had a torrid affair, possibly just something getting started, but James stepped in and that was the end. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Felix Felicitus, good a guess as any. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Not a romantic relationship yet, but Harry and Hermione will kiss by the end of the book and start wondering about a relationship. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amos Diggory. JKR spent too much time developing his character to not have him play a larger role. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? Not a pensive. At least nothing like I would expect one to look like. I think they are casting some sort of spell. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yes 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yes because he wants to follow in his father's footsteps and he must have it. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? 6 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Ginny will be made captain of the Gryffindor Quidditch team. 2. By the end of book six, Ginny will start to show interest in the new Neville. 3. We will learn that Ron and Hermione were a secret `couple' during book 5, but that they mutually decided that it wouldn't work. 4. Lucius Malfoy will die in book six. 5. Draco and company will try to kill Hermione. From juli17 at aol.com Sat May 28 03:08:39 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 27 May 2005 23:08:39 EDT Subject: Admonishing Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129614 Nora wrote: > >-Nora notes that we'll all have to rethink Snape in a month and a > >half, and wonders how many people's images of the character will > >survive (including her own) Lupinlore wrote: > You've made this point several times on various threads, Nora, and I > find it intriguing. I know predictions are always dangerous, > especially (to quote the Zen master, Roshi Yogi Berra) about the > future. Still, what kind of rethinking do you think will have to be > done? If you were running a betting pool, on what would you bet? > > Anyone else want to comment? I'm talking about things that will be a > "BANG" in the sense of really revealing important things about Snape's > character and causing lots of people to rethink things. What would > you bet on? > Julie says: I'm not sure we'll be rethinking Snape in a month. I think it's more likely to happen two years (being hopeful!) down the road, when the final book comes out. I seem to recall JKR saying Snape would be playing a pivotal role in book seven. So I suspect that we'll get a few more minor revelations in HPB but probaby no "BANG" on the Snape front in HBP. That said, I do suspect Harry will continue to distrust Snape's motives and allegiances, which certainly won't improve their relationship and may even cause it to deteriorate further. This will set up the BANG factor for book seven in terms of Snape and Harry's relationship. In the end, I believe we *will* rethink Snape, that Snape will turn out to be on the side of good, and that he will at some point protect Harry in a very public way, likely sacrificing himself in the process. And Harry's hatred of Snape will morph into a grudging respect, brought on by Harry's own growning maturity which will allow him to experience an understanding of what made Snape the man he was (i.e., empathy). In the end, it won't matter how nasty Snape was on the outside, but what he was willing to sacrifice to save Harry and the WW, and Harry will realize that was the most important part of Snape's character. Of course, that's all coming in book seven. I think at the end of HBP we'll still be asking most of the same questions we're asking right now! Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat May 28 03:44:24 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 03:44:24 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129615 >>Nora: >Contra Betsy's motivation-schmotivation :) the reasons characters do things are massively important in JKR's world and she has a tendency to look upon them with ire or favor consequently. [This is why present-day Draco doesn't look like he's heading in a good direction; she doesn't like him, although she made him, because of what he is and that certainly includes his motivations.]< Betsy: Okay, I'll bite. :) How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR doesn't like Draco? I'm honestly curious about this because Draco has such a large fan base (and I'm talking adults here, not Tom Felton loving teeny-boppers) and that can't have been formed in a vaccum. I've often seen those who like Draco or Snape or Slytherin House for that matter speak of the unfairness of JKR and how close minded she is when it comes to all those of House Slytherin. But again, *how* can they find such positive traits in that house or those characters *unless* JKR put them there *herself*. Because when JKR *does* want you to hate a character, I mean really despise someone, she doesn't seem to have a problem accomplishing her goal. Not many people defend Umbridge as horribly misunderstood. I haven't found a website dedicated to the subtle courage of Minister Fudge. Vernon Dursley does not send hearts a flutter. For that matter, the WW's fear of trolls doesn't get the same chatter as their contempt of house-elves. If Draco is meant to be so completely repulsive, if Slytherins are supposed to be so drenched in evil why are so many readers missing the cues? Why do they consistently find evidence of something more, evidence of possible goodness? Has JKR done such a poor job writing her villians? If she really does dislike Draco, why can't JKR, with her bully pulpit, get everyone else to dislike him too? Betsy, who in the interest of being anal points out that her motivation-schmotivation comment was aimed at a very specific question and should not be taken as her general philosophy. :) From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Sat May 28 05:25:05 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 05:25:05 -0000 Subject: FILK: Bye, Umbridge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129616 Bye, Umbridge (OOP, Chap. 38) To the tune of Bon Voyage from Leonard Bernstein/Richard Wilbur's Candide THE SCENE: The Entrance Hall. UMBRIDGE makes her inglorious exit from Hogwarts, unable to escape the attention of the Hogwarts staff, students, or poltergeists. CHORUS (with DA and OOP quite prominent) Bye, Umbridge, oh, farewell, Ex-Inquisitor of our institute We're all here to send you Off in a way you'll know you've got the boot UMBRIDGE: Wizengamot aided my plot Placing me in power where I ran each tittle and jot. Lies you'll tell not, said I a lot, Thus the lesson plan that I designed for Harry J. Pott Till I got caught! Bother and rot! What a bad spot! CHORUS Bye, Umbridge! Bye, Umbridge! Bye, Umbridge! Bye, Umbridge, aloha! You leave us shoes that never shall be filled It's been nice to know ya And please make sure that you have packed your quill. Bye, Umbridge, Bye, Umbridge. UMBRIDGE: I'd an office I obtained from Dumbledore And I thought I could do as I please But I could not walk through the Headmaster's door Or erase exposes of DEs. And `twas then that the twins declared total war And defied all my dire decrees De-de-de-de-de-de-de-de-de-de My decrees! Then I trapped all those rebels from Gryffindor And they led me through Forbidden trees Where I encountered herds of angry centaurs Who dislike it when humans dare tease. Oh fudge, I judge Though disinclined I must resign Ah, poor old me! CHORUS Bye, Umbridge, amigo, Seems that your Hogwarts phase is so past tense Let us hope that your ego Might now be reined in with some slight horse sense UMBRIDGE: With a clip clop, with a clip clop Carried off by centaurs who reject my pleas to please stop Shaken and dropped, like a rag mop For they didn't think that I am quite so scary as Grawp With a clip clop, shaken and dropped, like a rag mop! ALL Bye, Umbridge! Bye, Umbridge! Bye, Umbridge! Bye, Umbridge, your exit Says that the time has come for you to leave Think not to deflect it For with a sock of chalk comes Mister Peeves Mister Peeves, Mister Peeves, Delores, it's Peeves! (Exit UMBRIDGE, precipitously, followed closely by Peeves) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat May 28 06:38:05 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 06:38:05 -0000 Subject: Quirrel query Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129617 This has just been itching in my mind. I have been digging in the archives (somewhere in the 49600's) and they had a huge thread on Quirrel and the Halloween troll incident. It occured to me (but not to the listees involved at the time, unfortunately) that DD should have been suspicious of Quirrel at that point. Why? DD set up the protections around the Stone. Quirrel had used a troll as one of the protections. (Did they feed the poor thing? And who got *that* pleasant task? And why didn't Hermione freak out over "False Imprisionment"?) Hagrid knew who else was protecting the Stone, but not necessarily how they protected it. DD certainly knew what each had done to protect the Stone. Why didn't DD wonder that Quirrel, who had gotten a troll *into the obsticle course*, later fainted at the prospect of the presence of a troll in the dungeons? Any takers? Has this been discussed and I missed it? CV? Ginger, listening to Meatloaf. From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 06:40:20 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:40:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129618 On May 27, 2005, at 10:44 PM, horridporrid03 wrote: > >>Nora: > > >Contra Betsy's motivation-schmotivation :) the reasons characters do > things are massively important in JKR's world and she has a tendency > to look upon them with ire or favor consequently.? [This is why > present-day Draco doesn't look like he's heading in a good direction; > she doesn't like him, although she made him, because of what he is > and that certainly includes his motivations.]< > > > Betsy: > Okay, I'll bite. :)? How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR doesn't > like Draco?? I'm honestly curious about this because Draco has such a > large fan base (and I'm talking adults here, not Tom Felton loving > teeny-boppers) and that can't have been formed in a vaccum. I believe there are several interviews where she says so--and also in the FAQ on her page. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 06:42:44 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 01:42:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quirrel query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129619 On May 28, 2005, at 1:38 AM, quigonginger wrote: > This has just been itching in my? mind.? I have been digging in the > archives (somewhere in the 49600's) and they had a huge thread on > Quirrel and the Halloween troll incident.? It occured to me (but not > to the listees involved at the time, unfortunately) that DD should > have been suspicious of Quirrel at that point. > > Why?? DD set up the protections around the Stone.? Quirrel had used a > troll as one of the protections.? (Did they feed the poor thing?? And > who got *that* pleasant task?? And why didn't Hermione freak out > over "False Imprisionment"?)? > > Hagrid knew who else was > protecting the Stone, but not necessarily how they protected it.? DD > certainly knew what each had done to protect the Stone. > > Why didn't DD wonder that Quirrel, who had gotten a troll *into the > obsticle course*, later fainted at the prospect of the presence of a > troll in the dungeons?? > > Any takers?? Has this been discussed and I missed it?? CV? > > Ginger, listening to Meatloaf. > Hey, how about that?!?! I'm listening to Meatloaf, too! Gotta love that iTunes. 8.4 uninterrupted hours of Meatloaf!!!!!! Anyway, I think perhaps DD was assuming that Quirrell passed out not because of the troll but because he ran all the way to the Great Hall from the dungeons and was in not the best of health to begin with. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From celletiger at yahoo.com Sat May 28 07:45:13 2005 From: celletiger at yahoo.com (Marcelle) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 07:45:13 -0000 Subject: LV as the Big Baddie?!...where's Kneasy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129620 Anyone else not that scared about "The Second War?" With the revelation of the prophecy, the dementors deserting Azkaban and the DEs being on the loose, I wish I (ok, the general WW) were more afraid to speak LV's name. Also, I wish I knew more of what it was like to be a "good-un" during Voldy War I - non-Order members as well as Order inductees. I suppose I am offering that LV is, so far, IMHO, a lame villain. I like Bella or Percy as the big baddies more than a villian who talks to himself. celletiger, who misses Kneasy's bloody posts of HPfGU long ago and who should probably be over at the Hogs Head bar right now. Hey, Abe! From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat May 28 08:43:30 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 08:43:30 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129621 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > Betsy: > Okay, I'll bite. :) How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR doesn't > like Draco? Hickengruendler: She said so several times. If you want to read one example, it's on her webpage at the Edinburgh book reading. But there are several other quotes, where she stated that she is worried about how beloved Draco became, and she warned the mostly female readers, who adore him, not to go for the bad boy in real life, and that it took her way too long to find this out, herself. I'm honestly curious about this because Draco has such a > large fan base (and I'm talking adults here, not Tom Felton loving > teeny-boppers) and that can't have been formed in a vaccum. I've > often seen those who like Draco or Snape or Slytherin House for that > matter speak of the unfairness of JKR and how close minded she is > when it comes to all those of House Slytherin. But again, *how* can > they find such positive traits in that house or those characters > *unless* JKR put them there *herself*. Hickengruendler: I actually think these are three different things. Slytherin house itself isn't presented as totally negative. Regulus Black tried to leave the Death Eaters, Phineas Nigellus showed genuine shock after he heard about Sirius' death, and Snape, too, (as much as I am convinced, that he doesn't give a d*** about what his students learn, but only enjoys his power in the classroom), certainly has redeeming qualities (and I love him as a character), most notably that he risks his life in the fight for the good cause. (And JKR likes him enough to wish him a Happy Birthday on her website, even though she said that we shouldn't feel too sorry for him). Draco, not so much. People want him to be a new Snape, but IMHO opinion, he is not. The difference between him and Snape was already shown at the solution of the first two books, when both were wrongly suspected and proven innocent (Snape in book 1 and Draco in book 2). Draco, however, only was innocent because of a lack of opportunity, he was willing to help attacking the muggleborns. Snape, on the other hand, saved the Stone and Harry from Quirrell. He did some good deeds (no matter what his reasons might have been). Therefore, while I agree that there is more than meets the eye to Slytherin house and especially to Snape, Draco is IMO exactly the despisable worm he seems to be. > > Because when JKR *does* want you to hate a character, I mean really > despise someone, she doesn't seem to have a problem accomplishing her > goal. Not many people defend Umbridge as horribly misunderstood. I > haven't found a website dedicated to the subtle courage of Minister > Fudge. Vernon Dursley does not send hearts a flutter. For that > matter, the WW's fear of trolls doesn't get the same chatter as their > contempt of house-elves. Hickengruendler: I think there are two differences. First, Draco is young. Umbridge and Uncle Vernon are beyond saving, all their prejudices are sitting much to deep. Draco, however, is at an age where he could still change. But I don't think one minute that he will. Also, Draco is played by a supposed to be good looking boy in the movie, that must not be named. And nobody can convince me that this is not a reason for many fans to love Draco, because it totally is. Also, Umbridge and Vernon portray the banality of evil. This is in some ways more repulsive than the Voldemort kind of evil. (And I have no doubt that Draco will fight for Voldemort in the upcoming war). In these books we expect that there are enemies, who fight for the other side, and that's why many of us are willing to accept them and there place in the storyline. (Bellatrix and Lucius have their fans, too, and I doubt anyone denies that they are totally evil). Umbridge and Vernon are more insufferable, because of their self-rightance. Hickengruendler From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat May 28 11:19:06 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:19:06 -0000 Subject: Filk: Rat out of Hell Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129622 Rat out of Hell, to the tune of Bat out of Hell, by Meat Loaf. For Jen, along with a nice batch of cockroach clusters. Pettigrew remembers the night he was outed in the Shrieking Shack and began his life on the run back to LV: The Wolfsbane not taken and the werewolf is howling Way down by the forest tonight. There's a man who's transforming and the gleam in his eye And his teeth shining oh so bright. There's fear that's in the air and a full moon in the sky, And a killer's out to make things right. And down in the tunnels from which we are arising Where I once went as a young boy with the Marauders, He was starting to foam in the night. (pre-chorus) Oh, Master, you're the only one in this whole world That's mad and full of might. And wherever you are and wherever you go, There's always gonna be a fight. But I gotta get out, I gotta break out now Before Old Sevvie sees I'm gone. So I gotta make the most of this chance- now of never. If I don't oh, you know, I'll go to Azkaban. (chorus) Like a rat out of hell, I'll be gone to Albania. When the night is over, like a rat out of hell, I'll be gone, gone, gone. Like a rat out of hell, I'll be gone to Albania. But when the trip is done And I find my Lord And he sees devotion true. I'll say "My Master, I've searched for you forever; And I'm groveling now to you." I'm gonna hit the forest like a Banishing Curse >From a dragon-heart/Sequoia wand. As soon as I transform, I'll be off to Apparate And I'm off with the Dark Lord to bond. Though life was really good in the Weasley Burrow, Now everything is totally lost. And, yeah, it really sucks, but now, unless I roll, You know I'm gonna pay the cost. Well, I know that I'm damned if I cannot get out, And maybe I'm damned if I do. But, My Master, you know that I'm just too faint of heart And so I want to align with you. If I gotta be damned, you know I'd rather be damned, Rather be aligned with you. Well, if I gotta be damned, you know I'd rather be damned Gotta be damned, you know I'd rather be damned, Gotta be damned, you know I'd rather be damned, Rather be aligned, Rather be aligned, Rather be aligned with you. (repeat pre-chorus) (repeat chorus) I'll say "My Master, I've searched for you forever; And I'm groveling now to you." Well, I can see myself, tearing out of here Faster than any other rat has ever gone. And my paws are tired, but my soul is wired And Sirius can't stop me now, I'm gonna make my escape. And I can't stop thinking of you And I never see you Crucio until you're real irate. And I never see you Crucio until you're real irate. Then I'm down in the middle of a wood in Albania. Down and pledging my own soul to a writhing snake. And I think somebody somewhere is in Dementor hell. But the one thing for me is my heart's still beating, 'Cause it's still in my body. 'Cause I got away Like a rat out of hell. Then I'm down in the middle of a wood in Albania. Down and pledging my own soul to a writhing snake. And I think somebody somewhere is in Dementor hell. But the one thing for me is my heart's Still beating, Still beating, 'Cause it's still in my body. 'Cause I got away Like a rat out of hell. Like a rat out of hell. (repeat) Ginger, who notes that filking is much easier if you have the song on tape and can rewind a bit as needed. From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sat May 28 11:21:12 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:21:12 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy: > Okay, I'll bite. :) How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR doesn't > like Draco? Betsy: But again, *how* can > they find such positive traits in that house or those characters > *unless* JKR put them there *herself*. Marianne: Well, you could ask that about any character that has a passionate fan base. Why do some die-hard Snape fans see absolutely no redeeming qualities in Sirius? Or vice versa? Also, just becaue an author seems to want the reader to view the characters in a certain light doesn't mean they will do so, which I think is one of the reasons JKR seems so taken aback by the level of appreciation that's out there for Draco. Betsy: > Because when JKR *does* want you to hate a character, I mean really > despise someone, she doesn't seem to have a problem accomplishing her > goal. Not many people defend Umbridge as horribly misunderstood. I > haven't found a website dedicated to the subtle courage of Minister > Fudge. Vernon Dursley does not send hearts a flutter. For that > matter, the WW's fear of trolls doesn't get the same chatter as their > contempt of house-elves. Marianne: No argument there, but these characters are never, ever shown in a good light. I agree with Hickengruder - as adults they're not going to have a sudden epiphany and change their attitudes. Draco, OTOH, had his youth going for him. How often in the past have people leapt to his defense with the thought that no child can be considered irredemable, that in spite of his upbringing there was the chance that he'd turn out, if not a member of a choir of angels, as least someone who'd turn his back on the evil of the DEs. Personally, I've always found Draco to be a cowardly snot. He's not going to turn into Sirius Jr., and renounce his family's beliefs. Nor, do I think he'll turn into Snape Jr., a disagreeable piece of work, but ultimately one of the good guys. Just my opinion. Betsy: > If Draco is meant to be so completely repulsive, if Slytherins are > supposed to be so drenched in evil why are so many readers missing > the cues? Why do they consistently find evidence of something more, > evidence of possible goodness? Has JKR done such a poor job writing > her villians? Marianne: See, I do see Draco as completely repulsive, so I guess I've picked up different cues that the people who are Draco fans. ;-). The Slytherins as a whole, though, is a different ball of wax. I think JKR has laid the groundwork to shatter the idea, or implication, that Slytherin House is uniformly bad. The presence of Nott in the DA, the business about the need for the Houses to unite, etc. is, I think, an indication that some of the Slytherins will not be enticed by Voldemort's siren song of blood purity and all the rest that goes with it. The question of whether JKR does a poor job of writing her villains, is gist for another thread. I think her best bit of writing a villain is Snape, even though he's not the villain. He's so much more believable and interesting a character than Harry's other nemeses (is that the plural of nemesis???), Draco and Voldemort. Betsy: If she really does dislike Draco, why can't JKR, with > her bully pulpit, get everyone else to dislike him too? Marianne: People interpret books through their own filter, regardless of what an author may wish. I'm not an expert on literary criticism, but I have often wondered at what point an author's stated critique of his/her character can be legitimately ignored by the reading public. If JKR is indeed telling us that Draco is evil, then shouldn't everything he says and does in the books be seen through that filter? Yet, if people can find evidence that he's not evil, are they simply misinterpreting the story, or did the author not do a decent job writing the character? Or, are the readers clinging to a forlorn hope that their belief in Draco's redeemability will come to pass later in the series? Or, do they realize that Draco's a creep, but get a vicarious thrill out of witnessing his nastiness? Or...I could go on. I don't know that JKR *wants* us all to view her characters the same way she does. If she does, she might as well start trying to herd cats. She may simply be bemused that her creations have taken on a life somewhat different in people's perceptions than what she had intended. Marianne, who's tried herding cats and knows it's impossible. From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat May 28 14:41:59 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:41:59 -0000 Subject: Lily Didn't have to Die Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129624 Has anyone ever thought of this angle? Maybe Lily didn't have to die because at some point when LV was able to die, she saved his life. I know she is a lot younger than he is and he may have done his experiments by then, but maybe in some way, somewhere, somehow, Lily saved LV and because of this even he was honor bond to spare her. But when she got in the way, he just went against that type of honor too. I don't know, but I was just wondering about it. I tend to agree with the other poster who said LV didn't kill Lily because she was a Muggle born and not worth his time. Also why would LV want the SS if he was already unable to die??? Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Sat May 28 14:45:22 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:45:22 -0000 Subject: Snape as Spy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129625 I was watching a PBS show about training Spies and thought of Snape, of course. It was a British film. It explained about what a spy has to do. Some of the things are what we have all figured out, but it was good to see it explained. A spy has to blend in, has to (like an actor) make all forms of his communication match. This means what he says, how he looks, his body language, etc. He also must erase all emotion and sign of emotion. (Snape clutching the chair back when he heard of Ginny in the Chamber... this was a clue to us and something that Snape normally would have hidden.) It also went on to show how a spy is hyped up to be *on* all the time as far as observations go. They must see the things that the rest of us don't notice. And this creates a slight sense of paranoia at times. If Snape is a double agent, as we all suspect, I think that all of his behavior fits quite well. He is a perfectionist after all. I wonder who Snape really is under all of the persona of spy?? Tonks_op From foxmoth at qnet.com Sat May 28 15:09:51 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 15:09:51 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129626 > Betsy: But again, *how* can they find such positive traits in that house or those characters *unless* JKR put them there *herself*. Pippin: I think she wants the readers to feel sorry for Draco, without losing sight of the fact that much about him is warped and dangerous, and growing more so. I don't think she wants us to find him totally repulsive. On the website she calls it an excellent personal philosophy not to think people are all good or all bad, but notes that it's difficult to put into practice. (FAQ question on Sirius). I think she's a little worried that those who see the good in Draco or in Snape may blind themselves to the evil, or even romanticize it, and she wouldn't want to think she'd encouraged them to do that. I think she understands the appeal of the bad boy fantasy all too well, and wants to remind her readers, especially young ones, that it's not the sort of dream you can make come true. Pippin From shalimar07 at aol.com Sat May 28 13:06:01 2005 From: shalimar07 at aol.com (mumweasley7) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 13:06:01 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: <1c6d8f136c860f93a2d11174c01f7ecb@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129627 buckbeak1391 wrote: > > I think that Sirius's old motorcycle was transfigured into > > Buckbeak. Hagrid had the motorcycle last, and he also had > > Buckbeak. Also, Buckbeak seemed very trusting of Sirius when he > > escaped on his back, even though Sirius doesn't bow. Katherine Coble wrote: > Then how come Hagrid or someone else didn't transfigure Buckbeak > back and avoid the heartache of the trial? Shalimar: This one is simple.....It's all about plots. What better way to introduce the time turner to the trio than to send them back on a rescue mission. Remember DD saying if "If all goes well, you will be able to save more than one innocent life tonight." I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks we'll see the TT again. Shalimar From nrenka at yahoo.com Sat May 28 15:42:41 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 15:42:41 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy: > Okay, I'll bite. :) How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR > doesn't like Draco? Since you asked in this way, you've opened yourself to the meta- answer even though I know you don't like it: because she's told us as much. Draco got no birthday announcement (at least yet) on the website; she repeatedly has said (I think aimed at the younger fans) "Draco is not Tom Felton", meaning one should not be attracted to him because he is hot, and other comments etc. But I think it's in the text, too. > But again, *how* can they find such positive traits in that house > or those characters *unless* JKR put them there *herself*. Massive projection. Most all Draco defenses (and I include our arguments in this) involve going "Oh, that action wasn't that bad...", "He was just following Lucius' lead", "His motivation isn't really what he said it was", "He was actually trying to help in the only way he knew", "He's just an ignorant kid", etc. If you look for it hard enough, you can probably find it. Occam and I are both a little wary of that procedure. But enough people out there really want to find positive traits in Slytherin House at present that the surface is explained away. > Because when JKR *does* want you to hate a character, I mean really > despise someone, she doesn't seem to have a problem accomplishing > her goal. Not many people defend Umbridge as horribly > misunderstood. I haven't found a website dedicated to the subtle > courage of Minister Fudge. Vernon Dursley does not send hearts a > flutter. For that matter, the WW's fear of trolls doesn't get the > same chatter as their contempt of house-elves. There are a good number of Death Eater fangirls (yes, they're mostly female) out there. Umbridge has an apologist or two. However, NONE of those figures has the capacity to be seen as 'hot' in the same way as Draco, or as 'misunderstood'. If you think that Dumbledore is evil and manipulative, then Draco becomes an alternative figure to side with--he sees things they way they really are and is one of the few people not to suck up to that manipulative bastard DD. And then, in fic, he can convince Harry to see the world in the Slytherin Way and open his eyes to reality. > If Draco is meant to be so completely repulsive, if Slytherins are > supposed to be so drenched in evil why are so many readers missing > the cues? Why do they consistently find evidence of something > more, evidence of possible goodness? Has JKR done such a poor job > writing her villians? If she really does dislike Draco, why can't > JKR, with her bully pulpit, get everyone else to dislike him too? Because readers, many of them, are extremely resistant to actually closely following the text and are very open to reading the way that they want to, even if it fails to take into account a lot of things. How else can you explain the proliferation of post-war Draco!Stus (I won't list story names--ask me offlist if you want the offenders) in which Draco is this superior, smug, smooth, and extremely competent figure? You're sure not getting THAT from canon. I don't think JKR wants us to despise Draco as we do, say, Lucius. Draco is a considerably lesser figure. On the other hand, I don't think he's the object of sympathy, particularly with how his arc is heading. He has never ben shown to change his opinions, to learn that what he's doing is wrong, and to show positive character traits put to a positive usage. The content of his character is poor, but he inspires a lot of "Oh, but he could..." Draco, at current, is an object of deserved scorn who brings things down upon himself. That's a pattern I can see continuing, especially with his current probable loss of social status. (I can see Narcissa and Draco getting, out in Diagon Alley, "Aren't you that DE's wife and son?" Hehehe.) We'll have to see if he will. In the spirit of which, email me your bets as to Draco's future: reformed? dead? more evil? ambiguous? I'll collect and collate them all. -Nora notes that the world of H/D slash alone indicates an awful lot of wishful thinking From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 15:42:48 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 10:42:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Flying Motorcycle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <903e476e3df26576ee25e130b4235ed5@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129629 On May 28, 2005, at 8:06 AM, mumweasley7 wrote: > buckbeak1391 wrote: > > > I think that Sirius's old motorcycle was transfigured into > > > Buckbeak. Hagrid had the motorcycle last, and he also had > > > Buckbeak. Also, Buckbeak seemed very trusting of Sirius when he > > > escaped on his back, even though Sirius doesn't bow. > > Katherine Coble wrote: > > Then how come Hagrid or someone else didn't transfigure Buckbeak > > back and avoid the heartache of the trial? > > > Shalimar: > This one is simple.....It's all about plots. What better way to > introduce the time turner to the trio than to send them back on a > rescue mission. Remember DD saying if "If all goes well, you will be > able to save more than one innocent life tonight." I'm sure I'm not > the only one who thinks we'll see the TT again. > > Shalimar > I hope to EVERYTHING HOLY that we don't. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 28 17:00:59 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 17:00:59 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > Massive projection. Most all Draco defenses (and I include our > arguments in this) involve going "Oh, that action wasn't that > bad...", "He was just following Lucius' lead", "His motivation isn't > really what he said it was", "He was actually trying to help in the > only way he knew", "He's just an ignorant kid", etc. Gerry I totally agree. I want to add that it is not only Tom Felton who is a pretty boy, Draco in the books also is quite good looking. Contrary to Dudley, Crabby or Goyle, who never get excuses for behaving like the moronic baddies they are. When you are handsome, you just cannot be evil. Especially not when you are just a kid. I think a lot of people have problems believing a nice looking boy, who is also fairly intelligent can really be bad. Not only being raised that way, but actively embracing the values he inherited. When you are boring Persey Weasley who did nothing else than stick by the rules, ofcourse this must mean you are a budding Death Eater. But if your daddy is a rotten piece of slime, and you manage perfectly to be just as rotten on your own, away from his influence, you are simply misguided and will see the light eventually. Some time ago there was a discussion about Draco and Buckbeak. And I can only say Draco is responsible for Buckbeak's verdict. P. 206 Bloomsbury hardcover edition, some quotes: '... should have an owl from Father any time now. He had to go to the hearing to tell them about my arm ... about how I couldn't use it for three months...' 'I really wish I could ear that grat hairy moron trying to defend himself... 'There's no 'arm in 'im, 'onest -' ... that Hippogriff's as good as dead -'. 'We were just discussing your friend Hagrid,' Malfoy said to Ron. "just trying to imagine what he's saying to the Committee for the Disposal of Dangerous Creatures. D'you think he'll cry when they cut off his Hippogriff's-. Later in the book we see how much Draco enjoys the death-verdict and Hagrid's pain. Draco was faking his injury, he let his dad bully the committee and sat back and enjoyed the show. I cannot imagine how anybody can find anything redeeming here. Gerry From meriaugust at yahoo.com Sat May 28 18:01:57 2005 From: meriaugust at yahoo.com (meriaugust) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 18:01:57 -0000 Subject: HBP Contest Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129631 Meri here, joining in the fun. 1. Who will be the most major character to die? Dumbledore. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Salazar Slytherin - wouldn't that be fully ironic? 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) That she was an animagus, too, and that this power helped her and James to defy LV three times. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? Remus Lupin comes back for round 2. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Luna, but that will end on a good note and point Harry towards the witch he is meant to be with: Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? Amelia Bones, the only one with any brains on the Wizengamot. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? The pensieve, looking back on the night when James and Lily were killed, hence all the green light. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Naturally - how fun would Hogwarts be without Harry and Snape being able to torment each other? 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? No. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? Nine, bare minimum. More than Ron, less than Hermione. Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. "Negative" predictions, i.e., "The Centaurs will *not* come skipping into Hogwarts offering free pony rides," will receive no credit. Obvious predictions, i.e., "Harry will be in his 6th year at Hogwarts," will likewise receive no credit. 1. Gryffindor will continue its winning streak in the Quidditch Cup and Harry's "lifetime ban" will be lifted, allowing him to play again. Alicia Spinnet will be the new Captain. 2. Neville will get a new wand and become the number 2 student in the year (behind Hermione of course), but he will end up dying in the final battle, finally doing his Gran proud. 3. Ron and Hermione will become an official couple with one "on screen" kiss. 4. Professor Trewlany will make a third accurate prediction regarding the Half Blood Prince. Only Harry will hear this prediction and only DD will believe Harry about it. 5. The book will end in a cliffhanger - an attack on the Hogwarts Express or an attack at Privet Drive. From prongs at marauders-map.net Sat May 28 18:02:26 2005 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:02:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius's Flying Motorcycle References: Message-ID: <002901c563af$6b209050$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 129632 buckbeak1391 wrote: > > I think that Sirius's old motorcycle was transfigured into > > Buckbeak. Hagrid had the motorcycle last, and he also had > > Buckbeak. Also, Buckbeak seemed very trusting of Sirius when he > > escaped on his back, even though Sirius doesn't bow. Betty: I don't think it's possible to bow when crawling out a window. Betty From finwitch at yahoo.com Sat May 28 18:26:27 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 18:26:27 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: <25d47c44beed6440945e426ca271c564@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > > Oh yeah, another example of servant leadership in Judeo Christian > literature is the twofold example of Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee > in LOTR. Finwitch: I'd say that Frodo's anger when Samwise offered to bear the ring for him was a symptom of Frodo being under the ring's influence... But of servant-leader... oh, indeed. I think one *obvious* example is a comedic couple, Jeeves and Wooster, invented by P. G. Wodehouse. It made it to TV-series, and is set in London. Jeeves is the servant, doing all the housework (Wooster is helpless in kitchen - can't even make tea when Jeeves has a day off, even when he has a cooking book to help) - and each time the series begins with some minor disagreement (about something new Wooster has gained that Jeeves doesn't like) - in the end, the thing is gone, so Jeeves wins... ALL the time. Finwitch From ginny343 at yahoo.com Sat May 28 18:20:44 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 18:20:44 -0000 Subject: Quirrel query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129634 Ginger: > > This has just been itching in my? mind.? I have been digging in > > the archives (somewhere in the 49600's) and they had a huge > > thread on Quirrel and the Halloween troll incident.? It occured > > to me (but not to the listees involved at the time, > > unfortunately) that DD should have been suspicious of Quirrel > > at that point. > > Why?? DD set up the protections around the Stone.? Quirrel had > > used a troll as one of the protections.? Linda: I recently posted something similar to this. I have been wondering this too. Ginger: > > (Did they feed the poor thing?? And who got *that* pleasant > > task?? And why didn't Hermione freak out over "False > > Imprisionment"?)? Linda: I wonder if every time they had to feed it, if that person had to pass through the other spells to get there? I'm assuming maybe trolls don't have to eat very often, or maybe there is a different way to get to the room where the troll was . . . obviously then Dumbledore would have been the only one to know about that. Or maybe the house elves? Yes, a bet the house elves did were responsible for feeding it. They seem to be able to get around in Hogwarts and can make food magically appear on tables, so they should be able to do it somewhere else. Hermione probably didn't have a chance to freak out about this because by the time she learned about it, it was over. However, it might have made her start thinking about the rights of other creatures. Ginger: > > Hagrid knew who else was > > protecting the Stone, but not necessarily how they protected > > it.? DD certainly knew what each had done to protect the Stone. > > > > Why didn't DD wonder that Quirrel, who had gotten a troll *into > > the obsticle course*, later fainted at the prospect of the > > presence of a troll in the dungeons?? Katherine: > I think perhaps DD was assuming that Quirrell passed out not > because of the troll but because he ran all the way to the Great > Hall from the dungeons and was in not the best of health to begin > with. Linda: Seems to me DD would wonder if Quirrel was so talented with trolls to get one into the obstacle course, why did he run all the way back to the Great Hall to report it? DD should have been suspicious, if not of his fainting, of the fact that he didn't just do something about it! Even if he felt he needed backup, he could have at least watched it and locked it in a room or something. (Harry and Ron managed to do that pretty easily.) Also, Quirrel had a "look of terror" on his face, which implies he was scared (or pretending to be), which DD must have known he wasn't. Linda (who still thinks there is something from SS/PS that she is overlooking that will be important later) From siskiou at vcem.com Sat May 28 18:53:04 2005 From: siskiou at vcem.com (Susanne) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 11:53:04 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1924548844.20050528115304@vcem.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129635 Hi, Saturday, May 28, 2005, 10:00:59 AM, festuco wrote: > I want to add that it is not only Tom Felton who is a > pretty boy, Draco in the books also is quite good looking. Maybe I'm missing something, but where in the books does JKR present Draco as quite good looking? All I remember knowing about him is that he has a pointy, pale face, and I think pale eyes. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at vcem.com From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 28 19:17:30 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 19:17:30 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: <25d47c44beed6440945e426ca271c564@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > On May 27, 2005, at 3:58 PM, a_svirn wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > > wrote: > > > > > > > > K:? But we should all be servants to our fellow human beings.? > > > Demonized though the concept has become.?? I understand that Laura > > is > > > using a very arcane definition of "servant", but one which finds > > itself > > > expressed throughout Judeo-Christian literature. > > > > > > > Could you perhaps elaborate a bit? Was there an eleventh commandment > > added to the Decalogue recently? "Thau shalt be of service to thy > > neighbor?" (Although servants are mentioned in the 10th aren't they? > > As a "*thing* that is thy neighbor's" (emphasis mine). > > > > a_svirn > > > > > > > > K: Well, first in the bibles themselves..... > > How about the book of Phillippians, which discusses humility, chiefly > the humility of Christ? Then there is the entire book of Philemon, > which concerns the slave Onesimus and how he is to be treated by his > master. Or, perhaps looking for an even older reference, how about > Proverbs 31, where the virtuous woman is one who gets up early and > serves her household--including those that are in her employ. > a_svirn: And where is the difference between these interpretations of the word `servant' and the one that, say, Lucius Malfoy favoured? I see nothing "arcane" in your examples. The same conventional meaning as `somebody who serves another, perfoming menial tasks'. From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 19:42:27 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:42:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129637 On May 28, 2005, at 12:00 PM, festuco wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > > > Massive projection.? Most all Draco defenses (and I include our > > arguments in this) involve going "Oh, that action wasn't that > > bad...", "He was just following Lucius' lead", "His motivation > isn't > > really what he said it was", "He was actually trying to help in the > > only way he knew", "He's just an ignorant kid", etc. > > Gerry > > I totally agree. I want to add that it is not only Tom Felton who is a > pretty boy, Draco in the books also is quite good looking. Contrary to > Dudley, Crabby or Goyle, who never get excuses for behaving like the > moronic baddies they are. When you are handsome, you just cannot be > evil. Especially not when you are just a kid. I think a lot of people > have problems believing a nice looking boy, who is also fairly > intelligent can really be bad. Not only being raised that way, but > actively embracing the values he inherited. > > > Draco was faking his injury, he let his dad bully the committee and > sat back and enjoyed the show. I cannot imagine how anybody can find > anything redeeming here. > > Gerry > > > K: ITA. I've never been a woman who is attracted to "the bad boys", but I know that many are. I must admit that I am beyond _mystified_ at anyone who is attracted to Snape, Draco, Lucius, etc. Thank G-d Sauron was just a big eye. I fear that there would be women who love him, too. I can't wait to hear how many people are swooning over Voldemort once he is played by the "dreamy" Ralph Fiennes. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 19:44:33 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:44:33 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1fd39729407c173f07735fc4885fd257@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129638 On May 28, 2005, at 1:26 PM, finwitch wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > > > > Oh yeah, another example of servant leadership in Judeo Christian > > literature is the twofold example of Frodo Baggins and Samwise > Gamgee > > in LOTR. > > Finwitch: > > I'd say that Frodo's anger when Samwise offered to bear the ring for > him was a symptom of Frodo being under the ring's influence... > > But of servant-leader... oh, indeed. I think one *obvious* example is > a comedic couple, Jeeves and Wooster, invented by P. G. Wodehouse. > > It made it to TV-series, and is set in London. > > Jeeves is the servant, doing all the housework (Wooster is helpless > in kitchen - can't even make tea when Jeeves has a day off, even when > he has a cooking book to help) - and each time the series begins with > some minor disagreement (about something new Wooster has gained that > Jeeves doesn't like) - in the end, the thing is gone, so Jeeves > wins... ALL the time. > > Finwitch > > EXCELLENT example! (LOVE J&W---especially Hugh Laurie's portrayal of Jeeves....."Forty Seven Ginger Headed Sailors....." [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 19:51:21 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 14:51:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129639 On May 28, 2005, at 2:17 PM, a_svirn wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > wrote: > > > > On May 27, 2005, at 3:58 PM, a_svirn wrote: > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > > > >? wrote: > > > > > >? > > > >? > K:? But we should all be servants to our fellow human beings.? > > >? > Demonized though the concept has become.?? I understand that > Laura > > >? is > > >? > using a very arcane definition of "servant", but one which > finds > > >? itself > > >? > expressed throughout Judeo-Christian literature. > > >? > > > > > > >? Could you perhaps elaborate a bit? Was there an eleventh > commandment > > >? added to the Decalogue recently? "Thau shalt be of service to > thy > > >? neighbor?" (Although servants are mentioned in the 10th aren't > they? > > >? As a "*thing* that is thy neighbor's" (emphasis mine). > > > > > >? a_svirn > > > > > > > > > > > > > K:? Well, first in the bibles themselves..... > > > > How about the book of Phillippians, which discusses humility, > chiefly > > the humility of Christ?? Then there is the entire book of > Philemon, > > which concerns the slave Onesimus and how he is to be treated by > his > > master.??? Or, perhaps looking for an even older reference, how > about > > Proverbs 31, where the virtuous woman is one who gets up early and > > serves her household--including those that are in her employ. > > > > a_svirn: > And where is the difference between these interpretations of the > word `servant' and the one that, say, Lucius Malfoy favoured? I see > nothing "arcane" in your examples. The same conventional meaning > as `somebody who serves another, perfoming menial tasks'. > > K: It's the concept that performing any kind of service can make you a servant of someone--the task doesn't need to be menial. Take for example the overused American term "Public Servant". One wouldn't consider the Mayor of a town to be performing a menial task, yet he is performing in service of another person or group of persons. That definition seems to be slowly rendered arcane as people continue to view servitude as an inferior position. Laura and I both seem to be saying that servitude can take many forms and not need be referring only to menial tasks. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Sat May 28 20:35:47 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:35:47 -0000 Subject: Quirrel query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129640 Ginger wrote: > This has just been itching in my mind. I have been digging in the archives (somewhere in the 49600's) and they had a huge thread on Quirrel and the Halloween troll incident. It occured to me (but not to the listees involved at the time, unfortunately) that DD should have been suspicious of Quirrel at that point. > > Why? DD set up the protections around the Stone. Quirrel had used a troll as one of the protections. (Did they feed the poor thing? And who got *that* pleasant task? And why didn't Hermione freak out over "False Imprisionment"?) > > Hagrid knew who else was > protecting the Stone, but not necessarily how they protected it. DD certainly knew what each had done to protect the Stone. > > Why didn't DD wonder that Quirrel, who had gotten a troll *into the obsticle course*, later fainted at the prospect of the presence of a troll in the dungeons? > > Any takers? Has this been discussed and I missed it? CV? Dungrollin: Hold up a minute... At the start of year feast DD says that the second floor corridor is out of bounds. Quirrell let the troll into the dungeons on Halloween. But Harry saw the Mirror of Erised in a disused classroom during the Christmas holidays. So the plan to protect the stone in the second floor corridor - no, hang on, they fall down the trapdoor... the plan to have the *entrance* to the hiding place of the stone on the second floor corridor - was decided on before the beginning of term. Likewise, the stone was removed from Gringotts during the summer holidays. But the Mirror, (presumably the last bit of protection to be added to the obstacle course) wasn't put in place until the Christmas holidays. So when was the troll put in place? I'd bet after Halloween. I'd bet that it was the same troll, that Quirrell had procured it *for* the obstacle course with DD's full knowledge, though he probably didn't mention that he had a special knack with them - he was, after all, rather good at affecting incompetence. Either that, or Quirrell let the troll in, and once Ron and Harry had subdued it, DD thought it would be useful so it was put to work as a guard. Plausible? Dungrollin From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sat May 28 20:39:03 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:39:03 -0000 Subject: A riddle that has imortant implications on events in the Potterverse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129641 I remember this riddle I came across as a kid and am still amazed how often it has turned up since in many different disguises. Here goes ......... A husband, wife, and two children are preparing for church on Sunday. The wife and kids are taking forever to get ready, so the wife suggests that they go in separate cars and meet at the church there later. Husband enters the church and sits down in a pew near the back. The hymns and prayers are soon over and the minister steps up to the dais and begins his sermon. He is a boring speaker and he drones on and on and on until the husband nods off to sleep..... and he has this dream..... he is fighting for the rebels in the French Revolution and is captured by loyalists to the King. A trial is held and he is sentenced to death by guillotine for treason and sedition. Finally the day of his scheduled execution arrives and, helpless to resist, he is led up to the guillotine and is forced to lie down with his neck under the blade, which is elevated twenty feet in the air...... the executioner trips the blade which goes shrieking downward towards his neck.... meanwhile, his wife and children enter the church and, seeing that the husband is fast asleep, slip into the row behind him so as not to wake him up. his wife leans forwards and gently taps her husband on the neck just as the blade is about to hit and he immediately dies of a heart attack without ever regaining consciousness..... the question is .... what is wrong with the story? i will answer here on Monday and explain how the riddle and the answer are both on topic and relevant to a very key event in Harry's life ........ for those of you who cant wait, the answer is at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/40 in the potterplots yahoogroup where many Harry Potter theories are hatched or cracked {or both} From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 28 20:43:48 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 20:43:48 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice - Nature of Elf Enslavement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129642 > bboyminn: > > No, quite the opposite, Dumbledore is making my point for me. > > The first part of my statement above, is that wizard are perpetuating > a 'slave' mentality in themselves and the elves, because perpetuating > that mentality gives power to the slave owner, and re-enforces their > own self-serving interests. > > The second part of my statement about what binds an elf to his master, > is not necessarily contradicted by what Dumbledore says. In fact, in > my mind, my own statement is re-enforced by Dumbledore's. > > The question is the nature of the 'enchantments of their kind'. > > The first and most important point is that it is 'their enchantments', > the Elves enchantments, that bind them, not enchantments by the Master > wizards or the Ministry or general magic. By envoking /their/ > enchantments, Elves are placing themselves in slavery. Although, I > don't think Elves intend it to be true slavery. They intend it to be > honorable and loyal service. It is wizards who have taken advantage of > the situation and manipulated the elves commitment with a /slave > mentality/ in order for the wizards to thoroughly oppress and maintain > power and control over the elves. > > Now to the nature of these /enchantments/. I contend that what binds > an elf is a rigid fierce unwavering sense of honor, commitment, > tradition, history, and loyalty. > > The Elves make a commitment to their masters, in a sense, they swear > an oath of allegiance and service to a master, and further to his > House, and his family through all current and subsequent generation. > To break this oath is the greatest shame and failure that a house- elf > can ever incur. To break this oath, is not only to betray his own word > and honor, but to betray his entire species. To fail, is not only to > fail himself and to fail his master, but to fail his family, his > ancestors, the history and honor of his race, and to betray the very > core essence of his kind. > > That goes along way toward explaining Winky's reaction to being > released from service to Mr. Crouch. She wasn't simply being fired, > she was failing in the most complete and dishonorable way an elf could > be digrace. In her eyes, she betrayed her mother, and her mother's > mother, she failed to serve her master honorably and completely, and > in doing so, she betrayed the very core essense of her race. Such > thorough and complete dishonor and disgrace is not an easy thing to > recover from. > > Dobby, on the otherhand, was not released from service for /failure/ > of service, but by a fortuitous sequence of events. He got what he > wanted without the disgrace of failing to serve his master. > > Wizards have taken advantage of this core essense and unwavering > commitment by re-enforcing the 'slave mentality'. This is standard > fair for anyone who wants to retain complete control and power over > someone else. You oppress them, you suppress them, you drum into them > with unending unwavering vigor the idea that you are all powerful and > that they are ignorant, worthless, and most importantly powerless. You > do everything possible to make sure you instill in your servants a > sense of weakness and powerlessness. You keep them as ignorant, as > docile and servile as possible, because that keeps the wizards in > control. Further, it re-enforces the wizard own self-proclaimed, > self-deluded, self-important god-like sense of power and superiority. > > So, in a small sense, the elves over many generation have been > brainwashed to forget that it was by their own choice that they > entered the service of their master. They have been endoctrinated into > accepting their ill-treatment and absolute servitude by self- serving > wizards. This has spanned so many generations that Elves have > encorporated that attitude into their own belief system. > > However, if nothing holds the elf but his own choice and his own sworn > oath, then in reality, it is nothing but centuries of tradition and > indoctrination that prevent him from leaving. > > The magic is in the tradition, history, and honor of elves and in the > oath he/she swore. But I content that if you can choose to serve, then > oath or no oath, tradition and history or not, honor or no, you can > choose to leave. But that is something that wizard, to their own > self-service, will deny and defend to their death rather than allow > the elves to realize it. I notice that you abandoned your coinage "voluntary servitude" and switched to "honourable service". This is good thing since `servitude' and `slavery' is pretty much the same thing, while "honourable service" leaves much more space for semantic games. Yet in the given context the meaning is rather obscure (perhaps intentionally?) Just what those first elves who entered "service to a master, and further to his House, and his family through all current and subsequent generation" intended to do in their honourable service? Laundry, cleaning and cooking and other menial chores in wizarding households? I find the word "honourable" surprisingly anticlimactic for those tasks. I further doubt that these tasks merit all that pomp with allegiance oaths, fierce loyalty etc. that pass down the generations. I also think that it is too much of a coincidence that elves "offered" their services only to families with a prominent social standing and great wealth. As for the `enchantments of their kind', you can't really have it both ways. Either they are bound by the oath or by magic. If you mean to say that the oath IS magic, then it undermines all you were saying about their loyalty etc. since it's not their honour that binds but charms. If they are so honourable then there is no magic required. Oh, and by the way, what do you mean by "in a sense, they swear an oath of allegiance and service to a master"? You know, how it with an oath: either you give it or not, you can't do it "in a sense". Concerning the `slave mentality'. Are you saying that elves were made by wizards to "think" that they had been enslaved, whereas in reality they are free and bound only by honour? This is a very elegant theory, I really quite like it, but unfortunately there is a serious drawback: you see, slaves have no honour. Honour, loyalty etc. ? all these fine things are for free persons, not someone who is degraded to the state of property. So ? if indeed the only bond that exists between a wizard and an elf is that of an oath of the allegiance ? it is in wizard's interest NOT to re-enforce "slave mentality" but on the contrary to make sure that they remember the nature of their commitment. By "brainwashing" elves wizards would wash away the very foundation of their relationship. And just out of interest: where in the HP books did you find any suggestion of these "oaths and allegiances"? a_svirn From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 28 21:02:07 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:02:07 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice (was Re: Kreacher - workable solutions?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > On May 28, 2005, at 2:17 PM, a_svirn wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > > wrote: > > > > > > On May 27, 2005, at 3:58 PM, a_svirn wrote: > > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble > > > > > >? wrote: > > > > > > > >? > > > > >? > K:? But we should all be servants to our fellow human beings.? > > > >? > Demonized though the concept has become.?? I understand that > > Laura > > > >? is > > > >? > using a very arcane definition of "servant", but one which > > finds > > > >? itself > > > >? > expressed throughout Judeo-Christian literature. > > > >? > > > > > > > > >? Could you perhaps elaborate a bit? Was there an eleventh > > commandment > > > >? added to the Decalogue recently? "Thau shalt be of service to > > thy > > > >? neighbor?" (Although servants are mentioned in the 10th aren't > > they? > > > >? As a "*thing* that is thy neighbor's" (emphasis mine). > > > > > > > >? a_svirn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > K:? Well, first in the bibles themselves..... > > > > > > How about the book of Phillippians, which discusses humility, > > chiefly > > > the humility of Christ?? Then there is the entire book of > > Philemon, > > > which concerns the slave Onesimus and how he is to be treated by > > his > > > master.??? Or, perhaps looking for an even older reference, how > > about > > > Proverbs 31, where the virtuous woman is one who gets up early and > > > serves her household--including those that are in her employ. > > > > > > > a_svirn: > > And where is the difference between these interpretations of the > > word `servant' and the one that, say, Lucius Malfoy favoured? I see > > nothing "arcane" in your examples. The same conventional meaning > > as `somebody who serves another, perfoming menial tasks'. > > > > > > K: > It's the concept that performing any kind of service can make you a > servant of someone--the task doesn't need to be menial. Take for > example the overused American term "Public Servant". One wouldn't > consider the Mayor of a town to be performing a menial task, yet he is > performing in service of another person or group of persons. That > definition seems to be slowly rendered arcane as people continue to > view servitude as an inferior position. Laura and I both seem to be > saying that servitude can take many forms and not need be referring > only to menial tasks. > > I think the word `arcane' is totally out of place here. What do you mean by "definitions that slowly rendered arcane?" Why "arcane"? Then you confuse the concepts of "service" and "servitude". I rather think any "public servant" would very much object if someone refers to their activities as to `servitude'. And, finally, you confuse the service to some "worthwhile cause" with services rendered to individuals. First is what "public servants" do. Second is what they shouldn't do while on duty. a_svirn From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sat May 28 21:11:58 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:11:58 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129644 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > >>Nora: > > >...[This is why present-day Draco doesn't look like he's heading in > > a good direction; she doesn't like him, although she made him, > > because of what he is and that certainly includes his > > motivations.]< > > Betsy: > Okay, I'll bite. :) How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR doesn't > like Draco? I'm honestly curious about this because Draco has such > a large fan base ... I've often seen those who like Draco or Snape > or Slytherin House for that matter speak of the unfairness of JKR > and how close minded she is when it comes to all those of House > Slytherin. ... > > Because when JKR *does* want you to hate a character, I mean really > despise someone, she doesn't seem to have a problem accomplishing > her goal. > bboyminn: I'm sure JKR like many readers loves Draco (and Snape) as a character, but not so much as a person. True, Draco does have a large fan base of admirers and defenders, but I'll get to that aspect later. First, I don't think we as readers are meant so much to hate Draco as we are meant to recognise him. I think if JKR had written Draco with the conscious intent that we hate him, with the clear unwavering intent that we see him as a bad guy, it would have been a little too obvious and a little too preachy. Instead, she has made Draco simply another flawed human being. So, I think much like all her characters, I think we are meant to react to Draco on a deeper less obvious level. Let's face it, every kind knows or at lead recognises Draco, he went to our school, he worked at our office, we've seen him on the 6 o'clock news. We are meant to see him for what he is, and to understand what that means, and to carry that realization out into our real lives. Just as recognising Harry on a deeper level can lead us to manifest courage in our own lives, recognising Draco on that same level can lead us to fight bullying, intimidation, and tyranny in real life. I think it is this deep familiarity with people like Draco that draws all of us to him as a character, and many of us to him as a person. Despite Draco's limited apparent depth as a character, there is a lot of what I will call 'back-depth'. Draco is a product of his environment. He grew up in a position of wealth, superiority and priviledge; thoroughly convinced that his pure-blood make him near royalty (much like the Black family's self-view). Also, that wealth and priviledge have help isolate Draco from the realities of life. Draco may have the social breeding to know how to act in public, but because of his sense of superiority, this social courtesy is nothing more than an act, there is little or no real respect or consideration behind it. Because of his somewhat isolated up bringing, his sense of superiority, and his false courtesy, he is actually somewhat disfunctional. Normally, Draco's position of wealth, power, and status get him what ever he wants. But on a level playing field, Draco is somewhat lost when it comes to functioning effectively with other people. Take his meeting Harry on the train, certainly Harry would have shaken Draco's hand out of nothing more than courtesy. Harry, given his volatile upbring, is very good at pacifying situations; it's a defense mechanism. So again, Harry would have shaken Draco's hand for no other reason than not wanting the situation to escallate; not wanting to make waves. However, Draco, with his slightly disfunctional social skills, couched that handshake in a framework that make it impossible for Harry to do so. To shake Draco's hand would have been to insult Harry's first ever friend, Ron, and to Harry, a friend is an extremely precious commodity. So, Draco himself created a situation in which Harry had to reject him. Rejection is something that Draco is not used to; what Draco wants, Draco gets. We could apply that same thought process to Dudley. There are many people who have sympathy for Dudley, but since Dudley is not 'cute' by conventional standard, he has far fewer fans. Also, we have seen more of Dudley's unredeemable actions. None the less, many people here and even JKR have acknowledged, within a certain context, that Dudley too is a product of his upbringing, and have gone as far as saying he is abused (again within a limited context). So, I don't think we are meant to like Draco, but we are meant to see his actions for what they are, and to look behind the surface and see how and why Draco can be who and what he is. So, we dislike Draco for his actions, but at the same time, can see who and what made Draco how he is, and in that, have some element of sympathy for him. Plus, by not giving Draco's character any real depth on the page, JKR has left an element of ambiguity in his character. So far Draco's action have been very 'schoolboy'. He bullied, intimidated, annoyed, and irritated, but he has yet to do anything truly evil. That leaves open the possbility for him to see the error of his ways. To some extent, with regard to Voldemort, Draco is living in that same social isolation that he faces in other aspects of his life. He knows the rhetoric, and the right words and phrases that re-enforce his own superiority, but he doesn't truly understand what it means to be a Death Eater. I think if there is a turning point for Draco, it will be in facing the reality of what it means to serve Voldemort; the bowing and scraping, the absolute servility. In his own mind, I think Draco see himself as the one who is bowed to, not the one who does the bowing. Then at some point, Draco will have to face, the cold heartless torture and murder that are standard Death Eater fair. I think that's when Draco will either be redeemed or fall irrevocably to the dark side. > Betsy continues: > > If Draco is meant to be so completely repulsive, if Slytherins are > supposed to be so drenched in evil why are so many readers missing > the cues? Why do they consistently find evidence of something more, > evidence of possible goodness? Has JKR done such a poor job writing > her villians? If she really does dislike Draco, why can't JKR, with > her bully pulpit, get everyone else to dislike him too? > > Betsy, bboyminn: How can people 'love' Draco? Simple, 'ladies love outlaws like babies love stray dogs, and ladies take to outlaws like bankers take to gold', and that's how life is. Look at your own high school days, who got the glory, who got the girls? Was it the captain of the chess team, or the captain of the football team? Was it the nerds or the bad boy out behind the gym smoking and toking and generally raising hell. Sorry, but the brainiac never gets the girl, it's always the bad boy. Though later in life when the brainiac is a millionaire, and the bad boy is an abusive alcoholic, the 'ladies' see things a little differently. As far as Slytherin House in general, I'm very much a believer in 'the Good Slytherin'. We must remember that we have only seen a small few Slytherins, and those Slytherin's are Draco's friends. Because we see the world through Harry's eyes, we only see the Slytherins that get 'in his face' and give him trouble. Remember the stringy (or was it 'weedy') Slytherin in Magical Creatures class who could see the Thestrals? Harry has been in class with him for 5 years and didn't know his name. How can that be? Simple, that Slytherin is not one of Draco's gang and has never given Harry any grief. I simply refuse to believe that all Slytherins are uniformly evil. I strongly suspect that a majority of Slytherins are simply ambitious kids who want to keep their heads down, learn their lessons, leave school, and become sucessful. If they have any brains at all that aren't warped by hollow meaningless rhetoric, then they have to see that Voldemort is not good for business. He is not the path to wealth except for a very small group of insiders. He is doom to the economics of a very vast majority of people. Just a few thoughts. Steve.bboyminn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat May 28 21:23:44 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:23:44 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129645 >>Betsy: >How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR doesn't like Draco?? I'm honestly curious about this because Draco has such a large fan base (and I'm talking adults here, not Tom Felton loving teeny-boppers) and that can't have been formed in a vaccum.< >>Katherine Coble: >I believe there are several interviews where she says so--and also in the FAQ on her page.< >>Hickengruendler: >She said so several times. If you want to read one example, it's on her webpage at the Edinburgh book reading.< >>Nora: >Since you asked in this way, you've opened yourself to the meta- answer even though I know you don't like it: because she's told us as much. Draco got no birthday announcement (at least yet) on the website; she repeatedly has said (I think aimed at the younger fans) "Draco is not Tom Felton", meaning one should not be attracted to him because he is hot, and other comments etc.< Betsy: Okay, so this is the "JKR wants us to hate Draco but is such a bad author she can't get it across in the text and is forced to give readers a heads up in interviews and on her website," point of view. In other words, readers *aren't* able to pick up that Draco is evil to the bone. Only fans devoted enough to visit the website and listen to interviews are able to realize how JKR feels about Draco. You'll excuse me if I find such arguments as less than satisfying. >>Gerry: >I want to add that it is not only Tom Felton who is a pretty boy, Draco in the books also is quite good looking. Contrary to Dudley, Crabby or Goyle, who never get excuses for behaving like the moronic baddies they are. When you are handsome, you just cannot be evil. Especially not when you are just a kid. I think a lot of people have problems believing a nice looking boy, who is also fairly intelligent can really be bad. Not only being raised that way, but actively embracing the values he inherited.< Betsy: Now this I can see. Draco, though never out and out described as good looking, is certainly not described as thuggish as Dudley, Crabbe and Goyle. There are hints that he's intelligent and he's certainly quick-witted. So perhaps there is an unwillingness to condemn a child that seems to have so much going for him. Gerry: >When you are boring Persey Weasley who did nothing else than stick by the rules, ofcourse this must mean you are a budding Death Eater.< Betsy: Oh, Percy has quite a support group out there. Not as large as Draco's possibly (of course he hasn't needed one until recently) but Percy has not been written off yet. >>Betsy: >But again, *how* can they find such positive traits in that house or those characters *unless* JKR put them there *herself*.< >>Pippin: >I think she wants the readers to feel sorry for Draco, without losing sight of the fact that much about him is warped and dangerous, and growing more so. I don't think she wants us to find him totally repulsive.< Betsy: I agree with this. Because it would be fairly easy for JKR to write an unforgivable scene from which folks would have a hard time pulling Draco back from the edge of evil. At this point in Draco's character arch, he's not that hard to save. As No Remorse says in an essay on Draco (found here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/43476.html ) "I guess this whole thing is puzzling, because while Draco is a bully up to this point he is essentially harmless. When people are writing redemption scenarios for him, then I guess the first thing, they realise, is how simple it is. Daddy was wrong, Voldemort is an idiot and muggleborns can be really cool. Done." >>Nora: >Massive projection. Most all Draco defenses (and I include our arguments in this) involve going "Oh, that action wasn't that bad...", "He was just following Lucius' lead", "His motivation isn't really what he said it was", "He was actually trying to help in the only way he knew", "He's just an ignorant kid", etc. >If you look for it hard enough, you can probably find it. Occam and I are both a little wary of that procedure. But enough people out there really want to find positive traits in Slytherin House at present that the surface is explained away.< >Because readers, many of them, are extremely resistant to actually closely following the text and are very open to reading the way that they want to, even if it fails to take into account a lot of things.< Betsy: But this type of interpertation - readers are trying to find something that just isn't there - I have a harder time with. I mean, sure, if it was just me and few others desperately crossing our fingers for a happier outcome for Draco than "failed Death Eater" (because the boy *would* fail as a Death Eater, IMO), then I'd say fine, I'm projecting, etc. But it's not just me. A casual search around the internet calls up quite a few thinking folks who *do* hope for something better. Are *all* of them fooling themselves? Or is there something *in the text* that gives folks hope? >>Marianne: The question of whether JKR does a poor job of writing her villains, is gist for another thread.< Betsy: No, no, no! This is *exactly* what I'm asking. If Draco is such an obvious villain, why do so many refuse to see him that way? Is it a fault on JKR's part? Marianne: >People interpret books through their own filter, regardless of what an author may wish. I'm not an expert on literary criticism, but I have often wondered at what point an author's stated critique of his/her character can be legitimately ignored by the reading public. If JKR is indeed telling us that Draco is evil, then shouldn't everything he says and does in the books be seen through that filter?< Betsy: But does JKR succeed in getting across that Draco is evil? If the only place folks can find evidence of his evilness is outside the books, does that mean JKR has failed in her job as author? In my opinion, if Draco is supposed to come across as totally evil, JKR has failed miserably. (A hint: it's hard to get your audience to hate a character when they are so often smeared by the hero. Usually it's a good idea for the evil character to do some smearing of his own. People like to hiss.) >>Marianne: >Yet, if people can find evidence that he's not evil, are they simply misinterpreting the story, or did the author not do a decent job writing the character? Or, are the readers clinging to a forlorn hope that their belief in Draco's redeemability will come to pass later in the series?< Betsy: Again I ask, where would the readers find evidence of not-evil or reason to hope if it's not provided by the author. We're not talking about a movie where an actor or actress can instill so much charisma into an evil character viewers will find something attractive in the most repulsive villians. When an author writes a book, doesn't she have ultimate control over how much charisma or attractiveness a character will have? And if that's the case, why has JKR loaded Draco up with so much that book fans seem to like? If the only place to find out how a character should come across is *outside* the text, has the author failed? (Or, more subversively, could JKR be yanking our chain with her out of the books commentary?) Betsy From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat May 28 21:25:18 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:25:18 -0000 Subject: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gelite67" wrote: > It seems odd to me that as often as Uncle Vernon gripes about how > expensive it is to support Harry, he never complains about the > cost of Harry's glasses. Surely, Harry's prescription has needed > updating several times, since is he a growing boy. > Geoff: First, may I apologise if I am repeating anything said by other posters. My wife and I have been away on holiday in Northumberland near the Scottish border for the last week and have been deprived of my computer - the withdrawal symptoms are severe........ Today I returned to a friend's house in Cardiff and am catching up on the backlog.... A child of school age in the UK receives free eye tests and lenses. If they select their own choice of frames, these are paid for but some children will have "NHS" frames which are simple unadorned items. If the elves will forgive me giving a nod in the direction of "the medium which dare not speak its name", Daniel Radcliffe wears this type of spectacle frame and so Vernon would have to meet a minimum outlay for Harry's glasses. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat May 28 22:13:27 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:13:27 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > > >>Nora: > > >Massive projection. Most all Draco defenses (and I include our > arguments in this) involve going "Oh, that action wasn't that > bad...", "He was just following Lucius' lead", "His motivation isn't > really what he said it was", "He was actually trying to help in the > only way he knew", "He's just an ignorant kid", etc. > >If you look for it hard enough, you can probably find it. Occam and > I are both a little wary of that procedure. But enough people out > there really want to find positive traits in Slytherin House at > present that the surface is explained away.< > > >Because readers, many of them, are extremely resistant to actually > closely following the text and are very open to reading the way that > they want to, even if it fails to take into account a lot of things.< > > Betsy: > But this type of interpertation - readers are trying to find > something that just isn't there - I have a harder time with. I mean, > sure, if it was just me and few others desperately crossing our > fingers for a happier outcome for Draco than "failed Death Eater" > (because the boy *would* fail as a Death Eater, IMO), then I'd say > fine, I'm projecting, etc. But it's not just me. A casual search > around the internet calls up quite a few thinking folks who *do* hope > for something better. Are *all* of them fooling themselves? Or is > there something *in the text* that gives folks hope? Hickengruendler: IMO, a part of what makes you and the other fans hope is, that Draco so far hasn't done anything truly evil. He is so far more talk than anything else. Sure, he wished Hermione death and he said he wanted to attack the muggleborns, but he never actually did so. (Although like I already said, I think this is more because of a lack of ability/opportunity, not because he isn't willing to do so). His most evil deed so far was trying to get Buckbeak killed, but even there it was mostly Lucius who pulled the strings, while Draco did nothing except moan after the hippogriff wounded him and glee, when he thought about it's execution. > > >>Marianne: > > The question of whether JKR does a poor job of writing her villains, > is gist for another thread.< > > > Betsy: > No, no, no! This is *exactly* what I'm asking. If Draco is such an > obvious villain, why do so many refuse to see him that way? Is it a > fault on JKR's part? Hickengruendler: Hard to say. Obviously, there are many villains, who are clearly seen as such. I think Draco, so far, isn't (and hasn't done anything truly evil by himself), because JK Rowling wants him to stay in Hogwarts, to have a foil for Harry there. Of course you have to do a lot to get expelled from Hogwarts, judging from the infamous prank, on the other hand, there clearly is a line. Hagrid was expelled after he supposedly killed Myrtle. Therefore if Draco had done anything truly vile, and had been caught, he would have to face the consequences and there would be no foil for Harry among the students inside Hogwarts. Of course there is the possibility of him getting away with it, but I come back to this later. > > Betsy: > But does JKR succeed in getting across that Draco is evil? If the > only place folks can find evidence of his evilness is outside the > books, does that mean JKR has failed in her job as author? Hickengruendler: Well, it is in the books, where he tried to get Buckbeal executed. And it is also in the books, where he openly wished Hermione death. And it is in the books, where he gleed when Umbridge wanted to torture Harry and when he was thrilled, when the muggles were tortured after the Quidditch world cup. I do not see this as any sign for a misunderstood soul. In my > opinion, if Draco is supposed to come across as totally evil, JKR has > failed miserably. (A hint: it's hard to get your audience to hate a > character when they are so often smeared by the hero. Usually it's a > good idea for the evil character to do some smearing of his own. > People like to hiss.) Hickengruendler: I think she made him seem incompetent on purpose. (And with this I come back to the point, why I think she hadn't Draco done anything truly evil, yet). Harry and the others should underestimate him. IMO, it's clear that by OotP, he not only is far worse than Harry in DADA, but has a far lower standard than most DA members as well. He seemingly isn't a real threat anymore. But I think now this will change. With Lucius in prison and Draco blaming Harry, Draco has now a real reason to get revnge on Harry and will probably caught up again. And if Harry underestimates him, that can have serious consequences. But we will probably know more when HBP is out. I agree with you that he is not a very good villain, but I disagree that that means he's redeemable. He is just a very nasty piece of work, who so far lacks the ability of being a real villain, but he is IMO on his way to it. > > >>Marianne: > >Yet, if people can find evidence that he's not evil, are > they simply misinterpreting the story, or did the author not do a > decent job writing the character? Or, are the readers clinging to a > forlorn hope that their belief in Draco's redeemability will come to > pass later in the series?< > > Betsy: > Again I ask, where would the readers find evidence of not-evil or > reason to hope if it's not provided by the author. We're not talking > about a movie where an actor or actress can instill so much charisma > into an evil character viewers will find something attractive in the > most repulsive villians. Hickengruendler: In some way we are. I know the movie is off-topic here, therefore I will make this short, but I want to mention this, since it is IMO important for this topic. Of course the books were first, but now the movies exist, and the imagination of many readers is influenced by them. (Mine certainly is as well, at least in some cases, whenever I think of McGonagall, I see Maggie Smith in front of my eyes, although I know very well, that the McGonagall from the books looks different). And many fans also see Tom Felton and the bad-boy- charisma he brought to his character, when they read about Draco. The movies play a role. Hickengruendler From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sat May 28 22:29:10 2005 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:29:10 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129648 Betsy earlier: >>How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR doesn't like Draco?<< Betsy after responses: > Okay, so this is the "JKR wants us to hate Draco but is such a bad > author she can't get it across in the text and is forced to give > readers a heads up in interviews and on her website," point of > view. In other words, readers *aren't* able to pick up that Draco > is evil to the bone. Only fans devoted enough to visit the > website and listen to interviews are able to realize how JKR feels > about Draco. You'll excuse me if I find such arguments as less > than satisfying. SSSusan: I concede that the responses you have gotten, Betsy, are those which point to the website or interviews, where JKR is talking about Draco and Draco vs. Tom. But I do *not* agree that that is the only place we readers are being told that Draco is a nasty bit of work. "Evil to the bone" is not a phrase I'd use -- at least not yet -- but Draco as a nasty bit of work, as a bad boy, as a thoroughly unlikable person, I would say yes... *in* canon. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think those who say Draco has fans because some readers do a lot of projecting and/or a lot of filling in the blanks with things they want to be true about him is true. I have a feeling that if we had a poll of HPfGU members re: whether they think JKR *likes* Draco as a character [as opposed to liking him as a character she gets to write], I think the response would be overwhelmingly "NO!" And I don't think they'd have to turn to the interviews/website to get that feeling. I mean, let's turn the tables a bit. If we want to stick just to canon and avoid interviews & website fodder, can people point to places in canon where JKR is telling us she *does* like Draco, or that he's *not* seriously nasty? I know I don't see it anywhere. Perhaps she's painted him as a child we're not *never* sympathetic towards at all, nor perhaps not as a child we're 100% convinced can't change, but that she *likes* him? I'd need some examples of that. Betsy: > A casual search around the internet calls up quite a few thinking > folks who *do* hope for something better. Are *all* of them > fooling themselves? Or is there something *in the text* that > gives folks hope? SSSusan: This is my question, too. I *don't* see anything in the text that gives people much hope, even if the possibility isn't totally closed off. But we were also talking about *liking* Draco as a character, not just whether he has hope of turning himself around. Again, I just don't see it in canon. > Betsy: > But does JKR succeed in getting across that Draco is evil? SSSusan: She does for me. Buckbeak, his taunting of H/R/H, his constant put- downs and threats about Mudbloods and Lupin and Hagrid, his attacks on Harry, his insults of the Weasleys, .... I don't see how this ISN'T succeeding at showing us that he is, if not evil, damn near close, and certainly not likeable. Siriusly Snapey Susan From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sat May 28 22:30:39 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:30:39 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129649 >> bboyminn: >So, I don't think we are meant to like Draco, but we are meant to see his actions for what they are, and to look behind the surface and see how and why Draco can be who and what he is. So, we dislike Draco for his actions, but at the same time, can see who and what made Draco how he is, and in that, have some element of sympathy for him.< Betsy: I agree with this. And I think it's that element of sympathy that Draco fans have run with. I snipped your example of Draco's social awkwardness forcing Harry to choose between him and Ron as friends. For anyone who's had moments of awkward social breakdowns it's hard not to sympathise with Draco's complete failure with Harry, especially since Draco tries at least two (possibly three) times to win Harry over. It's elements like this within the text that make me doubt that JKR really wants us to hate Draco, to see him without any shred of sympathy. >>bboyminn: >Plus, by not giving Draco's character any real depth on the page, JKR has left an element of ambiguity in his character. So far Draco's action have been very 'schoolboy'. He bullied, intimidated, annoyed, and irritated, but he has yet to do anything truly evil. That leaves open the possbility for him to see the error of his ways.< Betsy: In many ways Draco has perfectly filled the role of "schoolboy bully". (Which is why, since Harry is not the typical schoolboy hero, Draco's attempts to hurt Harry fail so miserably, especially as Harry gets older.) And if that's how we're meant to see him, rather than as an evil little monster, than perhaps JKR *does* have a greater role in mind for Draco. Within the "school days" story book genre I believe it's normal for the hero to have a peer rival. But don't those sort of books usually end with the hero and rival coming to some sort of peaceable conclusion? Not that they become bosum buddies, but doesn't the rival or the bully generally come to some sort of realization that causes them to reform? Could JKR have this sort of character arch in mind for Draco? >>bboyminn: >As far as Slytherin House in general, I'm very much a believer in 'the Good Slytherin'. >I simply refuse to believe that all Slytherins are uniformly evil. I strongly suspect that a majority of Slytherins are simply ambitious kids who want to keep their heads down, learn their lessons, leave school, and become sucessful. If they have any brains at all that aren't warped by hollow meaningless rhetoric, then they have to see that Voldemort is not good for business.< Betsy: I think JKR has put a *number* of hints in the books that totally support the "Good Slytherin" and the "Slytherin does not equal evil" view point. For one thing, none of the sneaky villains exposed so far have been Slytherins (except for Voldemort, of course ). For another, the Sorting Hat has come right out and said that *all* houses must unite for good to prevail. Since Draco is the face of Slytherin for Harry's peer group I feel like I'm not totally insane to think Draco may well be the "good" Slytherin. And again, I think JKR has yet to thoroughly shut out that possibility. [As a business aside, it would be wise for Lucius, now exposed as a Death Eater, to do all he can to prevent his heir from being tarred by the same brush. It strikes me as prudent to make sure your business will succeed no matter who wins the war. It would not surprise me too much if Lucius therefore encourages Draco to take a neutral position. If Draco doesn't run out and join the Death Eaters because of an emotional need for revenge then there's hope that he'll think the matter through enough to recognize that, as you've said Bboyminn, Voldemort is bad for business.] Betsy From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat May 28 22:41:13 2005 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 18:41:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] A riddle that has imortant implications on events in the ... Message-ID: <105.61f52c01.2fca4d89@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129650 In a message dated 5/28/2005 4:39:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tinglinger at yahoo.com writes: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/40 --------------------- Sherrie here: I can't seem to get to that document, but historically speaking, the Royalists didn't use the guillotine. That was the toy of the Revolutionaries. Not sure how this pertains to the Potterverse, though... Sherrie (who's been running on 3 hours sleep per night for weeks now) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 22:43:53 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 17:43:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <955525da98fee888607d79a15e2e2c85@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129651 On May 28, 2005, at 4:23 PM, horridporrid03 wrote: > >>Betsy: > >How do we, the readers, *know* that JKR doesn't? like Draco?? I'm > honestly curious about this because Draco has such a large fan base > (and I'm talking adults here, not Tom Felton loving teeny-boppers) > and that can't have been formed in a vaccum.< > > >>Katherine Coble: > >I believe there are several interviews where she says so--and also > in the FAQ on her page.< > > >>Hickengruendler: > >She said so several times. If you want to read one example, it's on > her webpage at the Edinburgh book reading.< > > >>Nora: > >Since you asked in this way, you've opened yourself to the meta- > answer even though I know you don't like it: because she's told us as > much. Draco got no birthday announcement (at least yet) on the > website; she repeatedly has said (I think aimed at the younger > fans) "Draco is not Tom Felton", meaning one should not be attracted > to him because he is hot, and other comments etc.< > > Betsy: > Okay, so this is the "JKR wants us to hate Draco but is such a bad > author she can't get it across in the text and is forced to give > readers a heads up in interviews and on her website," point of view.? > In other words, readers *aren't* able to pick up that Draco is evil > to the bone.? Only fans devoted enough to visit the website and > listen to interviews are able to realize how JKR feels about Draco.? > You'll excuse me if I find such arguments as less than satisfying. > K: If I may. I hated Draco from the getgo. I hated him from the moment we first met him in Madame Malkin's. I simply point to external examples to prove my point--said point being that JKR means for him to be reviled. Is she a bad author simply because there are particular people in this world who for some reason want to romanticize a character which is portrayed in the simplest of terms as bad? I'm turning the question around. What is with the people who INSIST and PERSIST that Draco is this gentle sheep in wolf's clothing? Where do they get that idea? What has Draco Malfoy (whose very _name_ means BAD for kermit's sake) ever done in any of the canon anywhere that has people believing that he's good, I just know he is I can change him mama my love can make him a better person?!??!?!?!?!? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sat May 28 22:52:04 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:52:04 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice - Nature of Elf Enslavement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129652 > I notice that you abandoned your coinage "voluntary servitude" and > switched to "honourable service". This is good thing I'm sorry, but a servitude and service are two different things, and a servant is not somebody in servitude. I read a lot of fantasy and the normal word for a domestic servant is just servant. Somebody who gets paid to do the housework. Servitude is another word for slavery, or for a prison sentence. Semantically related but nothing else. Lets ask Oxford for the meaning of servant: 3 results found in the Compact Oxford English Dictionary - Perform another search Page 1 of 1 1 civil servant English dictionary entry 2 public servant English dictionary entry 3 servant English dictionary entry Ok, number 3 is what we are looking for here: servant ? noun 1 a person employed to perform domestic duties in a household or as a personal attendant. 2 a person regarded as providing support or service for an organization or person: a government servant. ? ORIGIN Old French, `person serving', from servir `to serve'. Next step: to serve: 1 break English dictionary entry 2 re-serve English dictionary entry 3 serve English dictionary entry Again, number 3: serve ? verb 1 perform duties or services for. 2 be employed as a member of the armed forces. 3 spend (a period) in office, in an apprenticeship, or in prison. 4 present food or drink to. 5 attend to (a customer in a shop). 6 be of use in fulfilling (a purpose). 7 treat in a specified way. 8 (of food or drink) be enough for. 9 Law formally deliver (a summons or writ) to the person to whom it is addressed. (in tennis and other racket sports) hit the ball or shuttlecock to begin play for each point of a game. (of a male breeding animal) copulate with (a female). ? noun 1 an act of serving in tennis, badminton, etc. 2 Austral. informal a reprimand. ? PHRASES serve someone right be someone's deserved punishment or misfortune. serve one's (or its) turn be useful. And now finally we find the link with slavery: ? ORIGIN Latin servire, from servus `slave'. The meaning has changed quite a lot over the centuries. So to equite a servant with a slave may be correct in ancient Rome, it is not correct in modern day England. Dobby certainly is a servant. He does domestic work and gets paid for it. He is not a slave. Gerry From zarleycat at sbcglobal.net Sat May 28 22:52:23 2005 From: zarleycat at sbcglobal.net (kiricat4001) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 22:52:23 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: Gigantic snippage > Betsy: > Again I ask, where would the readers find evidence of not-evil or > reason to hope if it's not provided by the author. We're not talking > about a movie where an actor or actress can instill so much charisma > into an evil character viewers will find something attractive in the > most repulsive villians. When an author writes a book, doesn't she > have ultimate control over how much charisma or attractiveness a > character will have? Marianne: No, the author doesn't. They can load up their prose as much as they'd like to make a point, but if they aren't absolutely crystal- clear, then a reader may very well interpret things in a way the author never intended. Making a character completely awful, like an Umbridge, leaves little wiggle room for finding a good side, and probably little debate among readers about how bad she is. Who is more charismatic, Snape or Sirius? I don't really want an answer to that question, but I'm sure we'd have people enumerating reasons why one character fits the bill, and a whole horde of other listies would be left scratching their heads. JKR's situation is different from many, if not most authors, because her characters are drawn out over a series presented to readers with plenty of time in between books to analyze every character down to the last molecule. Had there been only one book, how would you see Draco? And if that's the case, why has JKR loaded > Draco up with so much that book fans seem to like? > > If the only place to find out how a character should come across is > *outside* the text, has the author failed? (Or, more subversively, > could JKR be yanking our chain with her out of the books commentary?) Marianne: Well, has the author failed, or has the reader not read closely enough? Is this a "the chicken or the egg" question? I honestly don't know how to answer it. If a majority of readers sees Draco in a positive light, are they all wrong? I personally had issues with OoP because several characters didn't ring true for me. Maybe my interpretation was "wrong" according to how JKR structured things. However, as the reader I felt this book was lacking compared to others in the series. In that sense, I'd say, yes, the author failed me at this point. But, once Books 6 and 7 are done, maybe I'll see reasons to reassess my current thoughts. With regards to chain-yanking, I think there's a bit of that. For instance, where did this Luna-daughter-of-Snape thing come from that apparently was so pervasive JKR felt the need to comment on it? Marianne From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 22:56:04 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 17:56:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129654 On May 28, 2005, at 5:30 PM, horridporrid03 wrote: > >> bboyminn: > > >So, I don't think we are meant to like Draco, but we are meant to > see his actions for what they are, and to look behind the surface and > see how and why Draco can be who and what he is. So, we dislike Draco > for his actions, but at the same time, can see who and what made > Draco how he is, and in that, have some element of sympathy for him.< > > Betsy: > I agree with this.? And I think it's that element of sympathy that > Draco fans have run with. K: Which I think is a mistake.....Draco fans need to unOprahize their relationship with this creep. > >>bboyminn: > >Plus, by not giving Draco's character any real depth on the page, > JKR has left an element of ambiguity in his character. So far Draco's > action have been very 'schoolboy'. He bullied, intimidated, annoyed, > and irritated, but he has yet to do anything truly evil. That leaves > open the possbility for him to see the error of his ways.< > > > Betsy: > In many ways Draco has perfectly filled the role of "schoolboy > bully". (Which is why, since Harry is not the typical schoolboy hero, > Draco's attempts to hurt Harry fail so miserably, especially as Harry > gets older.) And if that's how we're meant to see him, rather than as > an evil little monster, than perhaps JKR *does* have a greater role > in mind for Draco.? Within the "school days" story book genre I > believe it's normal for the hero to have a peer rival. But don't > those sort of books usually end with the hero and rival coming to > some sort of peaceable conclusion?? Not that they become bosum > buddies, but doesn't the rival or the bully generally come to some > sort of realization that causes them to reform?? Could JKR have this > sort of character arch in mind for Draco? > K: I don't think Draco's role is to serve as the "Schoolboy Bully" at all. I think Draco's role in the story is to serve as the peer manifestation of the external threat from the Death Eaters. He's the only thing within the walls of Hogwarts to keep the DE/V contingent alive as an ever-present danger, and thus serves that device. He is the Dragon of Bad Faith. That is what his name means, and that is what he is--pure and simple. As far as the character arc goes--she would have started redeeming him in Book 5, not any later, imho. If there is anybody she is set on redeeming,at least partially, it's Dudley. Dudley has lost weight (she uses overweight as a shorthand for bad--something that gets me riled) and has earned Harry's sympathy through the Dementor attack. That was the beginning of any redemption she feels for him. If anything, book 5 shows Draco growing even MORE despicable. Besides which--if he were going to be redeemed, it should have happened before his dad got caught. Now any redemption looks half-ass in my opinion. > >>bboyminn: > > >As far as Slytherin House in general, I'm very much a believer > in 'the Good Slytherin'. > > >I simply refuse to believe that all Slytherins are uniformly evil. > > > Betsy: > I think JKR has put a *number* of hints in the books that totally > support the "Good Slytherin" and the "Slytherin does not equal evil" > view point.? K: ITA....there will be a good slytherin. It fits the point of Harry unifying the WW, which I think is the larger part of the story. However, I think the good slytherin is somebody that has been minor heretofore. > > Since Draco is the face of Slytherin for Harry's peer group I feel > like I'm not totally insane to think Draco may well be the "good" > Slytherin.? And again, I think JKR has yet to thoroughly shut out > that possibility. K: I respectfully decline to agree. I think that one of the devices JKR will use to bring the "good slytherin" to light will be that person's defiance of some upcoming tyranny of Draco's. Sort of a microcosm of Harry's conflict with Voldemort. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From k.coble at comcast.net Sat May 28 22:57:06 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 17:57:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A riddle that has imortant implications on events in the ... In-Reply-To: <105.61f52c01.2fca4d89@aol.com> References: <105.61f52c01.2fca4d89@aol.com> Message-ID: <578f858d13b1b3852a74ecf91812057d@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129655 On May 28, 2005, at 5:41 PM, MadameSSnape at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 5/28/2005 4:39:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > tinglinger at yahoo.com writes: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/40 > > --------------------- > Sherrie here: > > I can't seem to get to that document, but historically speaking, the > Royalists didn't use the guillotine.? That was the toy of the > Revolutionaries.? Not > sure how this pertains to the Potterverse, though... > Well, they DID use it in so far as they (the Royalists) were the ones to directly partake of its particular charms....... ;-p [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 28 23:23:12 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:23:12 -0000 Subject: House-Elf Justice - Nature of Elf Enslavement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129656 a_svirn: > > I notice that you abandoned your coinage "voluntary servitude" and > > switched to "honourable service". This is good thing Gerry: > > > I'm sorry, but a servitude and service are two different things, and a > servant is not somebody in servitude. I read a lot of fantasy and the > normal word for a domestic servant is just servant. Somebody who gets > paid to do the housework. Servitude is another word for slavery, or > for a prison sentence. Semantically related but nothing else. a_svirn: But that exactly what I said right after where you snipped: "This is good thing since `servitude' and `slavery' is pretty much the same thing". So why are you sorry? We seem to be in the agreement on the point. > > Lets ask Oxford for the meaning of servant: > > 3 results found in the Compact Oxford English Dictionary - Perform > another search > Page 1 of 1 > > 1 civil servant > English dictionary entry > 2 public servant > English dictionary entry > 3 servant > English dictionary entry > > Ok, number 3 is what we are looking for here: > > servant > > ? noun 1 a person employed to perform domestic duties in a household > or as a personal attendant. 2 a person regarded as providing support > or service for an organization or person: a government servant. > > ? ORIGIN Old French, `person serving', from servir `to serve'. a_svirn: As for `servant'. And where in the Oxford dictionary stated that servants and personal attendants are necessarily paid? I agree that in modern English the word comes to mean exactly that: `someone employed in menial capacity (and paid)'. But it wasn't always so. Take Shakespeare, for instance, he uses both words as complete synonyms. More importantly, in the Potterverse the word `servant' means `someone who is enslaved or forced to wizards' bidding". That's how Lucius calls Dobby ? servant. And I think it is quite intentional from JKR part. I think the Tempest was as much in the back of her mind as Macbeth when she invented Potterverse. > Dobby certainly is a servant. He does domestic work and gets paid for > it. He is not a slave. > a_svirn: when did I ever said that he is? From a_svirn at yahoo.com Sat May 28 23:33:44 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:33:44 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129657 > Betsy: > > > [As a business aside, it would be wise for Lucius, now exposed as a > Death Eater, to do all he can to prevent his heir from being tarred > by the same brush. a_svirn: So it would, but it's too late for that I'm afraid. > Betsy: It strikes me as prudent to make sure your > business will succeed no matter who wins the war. It would not > surprise me too much if Lucius therefore encourages Draco to take a > neutral position. If Draco doesn't run out and join the Death Eaters > because of an emotional need for revenge then there's hope that he'll > think the matter through enough to recognize that, as you've said > Bboyminn, Voldemort is bad for business.] > a_svirn: From ginny343 at yahoo.com Sat May 28 21:44:10 2005 From: ginny343 at yahoo.com (ginny343) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 21:44:10 -0000 Subject: Quirrel query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129658 snip > > Dungrollin: > > Hold up a minute... At the start of year feast DD says that the > second floor corridor is out of bounds. snip > But the Mirror, (presumably the last bit of protection to be added > to the obstacle course) wasn't put in place until the Christmas > holidays. > Linda: I like this point about the timing. Very possibly DD put the Mirror in the obstacle course BECAUSE he realized Quirrel (or someone in the school) was trying to get to the stone. Dungrollin: > So when was the troll put in place? > > I'd bet after Halloween. I'd bet that it was the same troll, that > Quirrell had procured it *for* the obstacle course with DD's full > knowledge, though he probably didn't mention that he had a special > knack with them - he was, after all, rather good at affecting > incompetence. > > Either that, or Quirrell let the troll in, and once Ron and Harry > had subdued it, DD thought it would be useful so it was put to work > as a guard. > Linda: I don't think it was the same troll because the canon states the troll was even bigger than the one HRH had seen before. So, unless it is still growing, we can assume it is a different one. Linda From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun May 29 00:55:18 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:55:18 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy: > I agree with this. Because it would be fairly easy for JKR to write > an unforgivable scene from which folks would have a hard time pulling > Draco back from the edge of evil. At this point in Draco's character > arch, he's not that hard to save. As No Remorse says in an essay on > Draco (found here: > http://www.livejournal.com/users/no_remorse/43476.html ) > > "I guess this whole thing is puzzling, because while Draco is a bully > up to this point he is essentially harmless. When people are writing > redemption scenarios for him, then I guess the first thing, they > realise, is how simple it is. Daddy was wrong, Voldemort is an idiot > and muggleborns can be really cool. Done." Gerry I think one reason why people don't see the evil of Draco is that it is not related to huge, clear-cut incidents. We see it in some actions, parts of conversations. You have to pay attention, but for me JKR did an excellent job in convincing me Draco is not nice. I think there are enough scenes in the books that make it clear Draco is evil. I read the article and I found it a piece of rubbish. I wonder if the person actually read the books. It is not only that he is a bully, it is his enjoyment of other people's pain and suffering that makes it really hard for me to believe in 'Daddy was wrong...' as something that 1) will happen, 2) is enough to make him turn to the good side. In the article the author compares Draco to Sirius, which again is completely ridiculous. Sirius and James bully Snape, true, but they are for the rest very populair characters. They hate Snape and it is mutal. But if the pensieve scene is true, it is James who is Snape's main bully and not Sirius. Still if Draco would only hate Harry, it would be a more or less comparable situation. But it is not. He hates muggleborns, hopes that Hermione dies, plays a part in the death-sentence of Buckbeak, tries to bring Harry's life in danger by giving hints about Sirius crime, and on and on. Sirius did not escape being a racist because his parents did not love him. His parents did not love him because he did not share their views. I think it is very hard to save Draco. Not because of what he has done, but because of his attitude. In the article, No Remorse uses the prank as an example of how bad Sirius is compared to Draco who never put someone' life in danger. (Apparently Buckbeak does not count). But we don't know enough about the prank to judge Sirius motives. Did Sirius realize he could have killed Snape? Was that his intention? That the incident is named the prank suggests to me that Sirius did not mean any lasting harm, but was very, very stupid in not thinking things through (typically Sirius). That still does not make his actions right, or less wrong, but motive plays a part. If his motive was just to give Snape a fright, than the prank was more in the nature of an accident and certainly not an attempted murder. Draco tries to goad Harry in going after Sirius. He knows Sirius is after Harry, so he deliberately tries to bring Harry's life in danger. In his second year he would have helped the heir of Slytherin if he had the chance. As for his 'social awkwardness," I don't see it at all. I see someone who thinks himself and his ideas vastly superior to those of other people. The scene in the train in PS is not Draco being awkward, but Draco being convinced he is superior to Ron, and wanting to rub it in publicely. People who are socially awkward don't know how to behave, would want to do things differently, but don't know how to. Draco fails in befriending Harry not because of lack of social skills, but because of his utter disregard and contempt for Ron. One could argue that showing this so obviously is a lack of skill, but it is totally different from somebody who would love to make a friend and just does not know how to. Gerry From alishak at spu.edu Sat May 28 23:07:27 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:07:27 -0000 Subject: Did James wear glasses? (Re: Did DD Know that Harry Would Need Glasses?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129660 > sophierom: > > As for Harry's vision, didn't James Potter wear glasses? While > > Rowling has indicated that glasses and eyes are both important to > > understanding Harry's vulnerabilities and powers, perhaps his bad > > eyesight is due to genetics? > > Jen: It's really not clear in canon if James wears glassses or not. > Harry sees him in the Mirror of Erised wearing glasses, but that's > also Harry's fantasy of his parents before he sees actual pictures > of them. Someone else made the point that Harry might conjure up two > people he could immediately identify with in that scene, thus he > sees a father with untidy hair and glasses. > Alisha: I've heard several people use this argument in dealing with what Harry saw in the Mirror of Erised, but I have yet to understand what would make someone think that what Harry saw came entirely from knowledge or hopes containted within himself. When Harry used the mirror to retrieve the Philosopher's Stone, it is not his intuition that shows him the stone in his pocket, it is the truth of the matter. I think that all the people that Harry saw in the mirror were indeed Harry's relatives as they once existed. IIRC, Harry did not at first even realize that they were his family members. He had to look more closely. As to why James was never again described wearing glasses: they aren't really an important part of who James is to Harry. After all, once we have seen a remarkable physical feature of any character described, we almost never see it again until it is important or relevant to the plot. For instance, McGonnagal's glasses are only mentioned in connection with her animagus state. This doesn't mean that she doesn't always wear glasses, just that we don't always need to know about them. Alisha- whose glasses have always been an important part of her character, even when she's wearing contacts From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun May 29 00:57:34 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 00:57:34 -0000 Subject: Quirrel query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129661 > I don't think it was the same troll because the canon states the > troll was even bigger than the one HRH had seen before. So, unless > it is still growing, we can assume it is a different one. 'Have you got what it takes to train security trolls?' OoP. I assume the troll on the third floor is a security troll and therefore trained and 'tame.' Whereas the Halloween troll is a wild troll and therefore dangerous to anybody he comes across. Gerry From alainekier at yahoo.com Sat May 28 23:41:25 2005 From: alainekier at yahoo.com (Alaine M. Kier) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:41:25 -0000 Subject: Quirrel query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129662 > Ginger: > > > Why didn't DD wonder that Quirrel, who had gotten a troll *into > > > the obsticle course*, later fainted at the prospect of the > > > presence of a troll in the dungeons?? > > Katherine: > > I think perhaps DD was assuming that Quirrell passed out not > > because of the troll but because he ran all the way to the Great > > Hall from the dungeons and was in not the best of health to begin > > with. > > Linda: > Seems to me DD would wonder if Quirrel was so talented with trolls > to get one into the obstacle course, why did he run all the way back > to the Great Hall to report it? DD should have been suspicious, if > not of his fainting, of the fact that he didn't just do something > about it! Alaine: Hi All - I always thought that Quirrel's ability with Trolls was not known at large. Like Lockhart's ability with Memory Charms it was advantageous to Quirrel to keep it secret and foster his image as "PPPoor PPProfessor Quirrel. . ." As the DADA teacher, when asked for his imput into an obstacle to guard the stone he could make the suggestion of a Troll but then have help from Dumbledore and perhaps Hagrid in the actual execution i.e. getting a Troll into the dungeon. His then feigned terror at it being loose in Hogwarts would not therefore be remarkable. Just my two cents. From willsonkmom at msn.com Sun May 29 02:30:51 2005 From: willsonkmom at msn.com (potioncat) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 02:30:51 -0000 Subject: Bad Slytherins/ Good Slytherins (was Does JKR want us to hate Draco? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129663 > SSSusan: > She does for me. Buckbeak, his taunting of H/R/H, his constant put- > downs and threats about Mudbloods and Lupin and Hagrid, his attacks > on Harry, his insults of the Weasleys, .... I don't see how this > ISN'T succeeding at showing us that he is, if not evil, damn near > close, and certainly not likeable. Potioncat: I'm not sure if for the purpose of this, we're talking about how Draco is viewed at discussion sites or also fan-fiction. Because what a fan-fic writer does with a character may have very little to do with what that writer thinks JKR is doing with the character. A fan- fic writer can ask,"can I take this toad of a person and make him seem like a prince?" I think JKR has shown that Draco is a horrible person. I've never seen anything in canon that would even hint at any goodness in him. The only reason she talks about it in interviews is because there are fans who want to see him differently. I also think that she isn't bothered at all by any bad thing that happens to him. And while many readers are upset that Crouch!Moddy bounced him around, I think JKR considers Draco had it coming. Whether it was a fair and appropriate punishment at that given moment has been the source of other threads. Some readers are upset that 11-year-old students are comdemned to a life of evil by the Sorting Hat. Keep in mind, no real child is harmed by the sorting process. It's a work of fiction. And as to that, I've known snotty little kids who continue to be jerks as they grow up. Whether they were born that way or made that way, I cannot say. There are those who like Draco and other Slytherins because they are bad. The badder, the better. I stumbled onto a few of those sites before I found HPfGU. Not pleasant places, I can tell you. And maybe there's a chance that some readers think Draco's going to be "converted" because Snape seems to favor him. Snape, of course, is JKR's other bad boy, and it really isn't certain how he will turn out. One of the other posts in this thread suggested that the Good Slytherin (if there is one) will be someone who has been a minor character, and who hasn't joined in with Draco. I think it's important that T. Nott wasn't part of the hexing party on the train. His father was also captured, but he doesn't seem to be involved in revenge. Potioncat From BrwNeil at aol.com Sun May 29 03:21:46 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Sat, 28 May 2005 23:21:46 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Sna... Message-ID: <87.28892060.2fca8f4a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129664 In a message dated 5/28/2005 8:55:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, vuurdame at xs4all.nl writes: I think one reason why people don't see the evil of Draco is that it is not related to huge, clear-cut incidents. We see it in some actions, parts of conversations. You have to pay attention, but for me JKR did an excellent job in convincing me Draco is not nice. Perhaps the reason JKR doesn't want people liking Draco in even the slightest way is because she knows what he will do in books six and seven. Perhaps he will do something from which there is no redemption. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From imamommy at sbcglobal.net Sun May 29 04:15:51 2005 From: imamommy at sbcglobal.net (Emily) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 04:15:51 -0000 Subject: Bad Slytherins/ Good Slytherins (was Does JKR want us to hate Draco? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129665 SSSusan: She does for me. Buckbeak, his taunting of H/R/H, his constant put- downs and threats about Mudbloods and Lupin and Hagrid, his attacks on Harry, his insults of the Weasleys, .... I don't see how this ISN'T succeeding at showing us that he is, if not evil, damn near close, and certainly not likeable. Potioncat: snip I think JKR has shown that Draco is a horrible person. I've never seen anything in canon that would even hint at any goodness in him. snip Neil: I think one reason why people don't see the evil of Draco is that it is not related to huge, clear-cut incidents. We see it in some actions, parts of conversations. You have to pay attention, but for me JKR did an excellent job in convincing me Draco is not nice. imamommy: What clinches it for me is Draco's attitude in CoS. He openly says "You'll be next, Mudbloods" and to his cronies he expresses the desire that Hermione will be killed. That's pretty extreme for a 12 year old. Draco reminds me of Voldemort in some ways. He's a coward; he's scared for his own neck but thinks nothing of harming those he finds lower than him, or exploiting them to his own advantage. Even his friends he uses as a means for power and influence. The question for me has never been if Draco is a good or a bad guy, but more the degree of how bad he is. He's unpleasant, and a bully, but to this point Harry has outpaced him. Whether this will remain the case will be shown in the next two volumes. Potioncat: > Some readers are upset that 11-year-old students are comdemned to a > life of evil by the Sorting Hat. snip imamommy: I have never agreed with this view. The trait of ambition is not evil by itself. If there is any flaw in the way this is written, it's that very few of the Slytherins *are* ambitious. Would you describe Crabbe, Goyle, or Montague as ambitious? If anything, too many Slytherins just follow the crowd. I also think, if JKR is trying to show that all Slytherins are a pain, that it's been more an acknowledgement that a roughly a fourth of the population may make trouble for the remaining %75, not a sentence to become a pain. imamommy From marilynpeake at cs.com Sun May 29 03:01:03 2005 From: marilynpeake at cs.com (Marilyn Peake) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 03:01:03 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: <955525da98fee888607d79a15e2e2c85@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129666 Katherine Coble: > I hated Draco from the getgo. > > Is she a bad author simply because there are particular people in this world who for some reason want to romanticize a character which is portrayed in the simplest of terms as bad? Marilyn Peake: I think that the job of a good author is to reflect back the real world, even when the author does this through fantasy. I think that J.K. Rowling does this extremely well. In the real world, when newspapers and T.V. report that someone has been sentenced to prison for committing murder, a certain fan base will begin sending letters and marriage proposals to the prisoner. J.K. Rowling has, in my opinion, created characters who seem real enough to be treated in the various ways in which people respond to others in the real world. In regard to Draco, I remember from my psychology courses that there is a "halo effect" attributed to attractive people and to tall people. Attractive people are automatically considered by more people to be "smart", "good", etc. Tall people are more often hired for jobs. Best Wishes, Marilyn ~~ Drink deeply by land or sea. Earth comes only once.~~ >From THE FISHERMAN'S SON Trilogy http://www.marilynpeake.com http://www.thefishermansson.com http://www.thecityofthegoldensun.com From catlady at wicca.net Sun May 29 05:39:34 2005 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 05:39:34 -0000 Subject: HBP/Harry/Sirius/Snape/Patronus/Sn./Neville/Sn./Doge/C.Drac./Kreachur/abusedH Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129667 Chys Sage Lattes wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129304 : << Things you'd like to see in Half Blood Prince: Haha, maybe the Bloody Baron is the HBP? >> Now that you remind me, I Really Want to be told the Bloody Baron's story and why Peeves obeys him. Kristen wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129328 : << I mean Harry would hardly think Sirius would go out if the MOM thought he was in London. >> You assume that Harry thought Sirius has a bit of common sense, but it seems to me that Harry has learned that Sirius did not have anything of the sort. Pippin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129368 : << [Snape] may be crawling on broken glass; it would account for his disposition. >> This is a forbidden "LOL and good point" post. Chris flowerchild wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129414 : << Hermione's patronus is an otter, and we know from JKR that the patronus and animagus are the same. >> I don't THINK we know from JKR that patronus and animagus form are the same, altho' I agree that JKR would make Hermione's animagus form be an otter. But I think Hermione would need to develop more of a sense of humor before she would be able to turn into an otter. (I checked Quick Quotes Quill and didn't find anything about patronus vs animagus.) Phoenixgod2000 wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129434 : << Snape lets him down when he tries to get Harry expelled *every single year*. >> I am sure that Dumbledore would never allow Harry to be expelled, because the Chosen One needs the Hogwarts education and because Hogwarts is the safest place for the Chosen One to await his destiny. I am sure Snape knows that DD would never allow Harry to be expelled. Therefore, I think it might be more accurate to refer to Snape as 'he pretends to try to get Harry expells *every single year*'. Betsy horridporrid wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129463 : << It would take a major twist of logic indeed to presume that Snape actually *does* want Hermione to "help" Neville. (And I don't recall claiming Snape is not logical.) To make it even clearer that Snape wishes Neville to continue on his own, Snape assigns him a mini-exam. "Longbottom, at the end of this lesson we will feed a few drops of this potion to your toad and see what happens. Perhaps that will encourage you to do it properly." (ibid p.126) Snape sets a task before Neville, with the hope that he's given the boy enough motivation to reach his full potential. Hermione sabatoges Snape's efforts. And Hermione is fully aware that she is cheating. "Hermione was muttering instructions to him out of the corner of her mouth, so that Snape wouldn't see." (ibid p. 127) By telling Neville exactly what to do, Hermione prevents Neville from learning on his own, reinforces Neville's belief that he can't do potions and gets in the way of Snape's efforts to get through to a troubled student. Hermione was trying to be nice, but she acted as an enabler and in the end did Neville no favors. >> Do we actually KNOW that Neville's problem with getting the ingredients and instructions right is not that he has an undiagnosed eyesight/vision problem with reading from the chalkboard? Does reading the chalkboard aloud to a student who can't SEE it prevent that student from learning? He still has to pick up and cut and pour and stir the ingredients himself. I don't really think that Gran never had Neville's eyes tested, but to me it seems that, considering how much Neville's memory problems are emphasized, he may have an absolutely legitimate learning disability that he can Read the chalkboard, but he can't Remember what he read for the one second it takes him to turn back to his work bench and cauldron. In which case it would help if he copied down the instructions in such a way that he could hold them in front of his eyes at The Same Time he is looking at his potion. Me, I do not perceive someone reading the chalkboard aloud to him as being so very different from him reading a closer copy of the chalkboard. Magda Grantwitch wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129550 : << And it might even further undermine his already fragile self-confidence (as it was at that point in the series) if he thinks he almost lost his pet and can't be sure that he'll do better next time. >> And it might boost his self-confidence that he did it right this time, with only verbal help. Magda wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129465 : << Snape's a git and an all-around nasty guy, but he's still within the limits of crappy teacherdom in the real world that we live in. (And while I don't want to offend the teachers on the list - come on, guys, we know it's true; everyone has Snape-clone horror stories.) >> I doubt you offended any of the listies who have proudly posted that they themselves are Snape-like teachers. Cleverwitch predicted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129503 : << We will learn who killed Broderick Bode. My money is on Elphias Doge. >> Is that because his name sounds dodgey? "njelliot2003" predicted in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129569 : << the first Fat Lady password Harry hears is "Caput Draconis" (pg. 96). >> Caput Draconis means 'head of dragon'. I think it is the name of something astrological, like some point in the Moon's orbit. I have a gut feeling that it is related somehow to another password: "Pig's snout". Because Pig and Dragon are both animals, and the snout is part of the head. But I can't figure out that such a relationship would mean anything for the plot. Gerry festuco wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129595 : << It would be really interesting if Sirius did leave a will and left all his posessions, including Kreacher to Harry. Not only will it be very interesting how Harry deals with it. How will Hermione react that one of her best friens now owns a house-elf who is obviously too dangerous to set free. >> Can we Obliviate his memories of the OoP year and then free him? Sienna wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129580 : << Firstly, I'd like to point out that Harry, technically, is an abused child. And as a sufferer of abuse for most of his life, his is actually quite stable and compassionate (moreso I think than should realistically be expected). >> I have a theory about that. I think I think Lily was able, with her magic, to put an image of herself in her baby's mind, that would be like an 'imaginary mum' (by analogy with 'imaginary friend') who would cuddle Harry and tell him that he's a good kid who doesn't deserve Dursley abuse and tell him about how decent people behave, thus being that one caring adult said to be necessary to even a 'resilient' child's survival of serious abuse, and an example of goodness he could learn from. I kind of think Lily used her last magic to put this image in his head intentionally, instead of using her last magic in one last attempt to escape Voldemort. That is the heroic self-sacrifce that canon credits her, accepting her own death because it was more important to her to give this protection (from abusive Dursleys) of her love. I don't know why she would do that if she really believed that he would be dead seconds after she was, so I am left sympathetic to the theories that Harry survived AK because of some magic that had been done on him (presumably by Lily) or that he had been born with. When Harry resisted the Imperius Curse, the Curse's Moody-voice in his head told him to jump up on the desk, and "another voice had awoken in the back of his brain. Stupid to do, really, said the voice." I believe that that other voice is what's left of the image-Lily after all these years; she doesn't appear often, she appears as Harry's voice instead of her own, but she still is caring for Harry -- and still has free will. In addition, so far we've always seen Harry wondering and trying to find out about his father, and not about his mother. Some say that's a plot device because JKR is saving some big surprise about Lily, and some say it's normal because Harry is 11 to 15 so far, puberty and adolescence, and much more concerned about a male image to identify with. But *I* say that he doesn't search so much for Lily because, unknown to himself, he already has her with him. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Sun May 29 05:46:45 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 05:46:45 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129668 >>SSSusan: >I concede that the responses you have gotten, Betsy, are those which point to the website or interviews, where JKR is talking about Draco and Draco vs. Tom. But I do *not* agree that that is the only place we readers are being told that Draco is a nasty bit of work. >Maybe I'm wrong, but I think those who say Draco has fans because some readers do a lot of projecting and/or a lot of filling in the blanks with things they want to be true about him is true. >I mean, let's turn the tables a bit. If we want to stick just to canon and avoid interviews & website fodder, can people point to places in canon where JKR is telling us she *does* like Draco, or that he's *not* seriously nasty?< >>Potioncat: >I think JKR has shown that Draco is a horrible person. I've never seen anything in canon that would even hint at any goodness in him.< >>Katherine Coble: >If I may. I hated Draco from the getgo. I hated him from the moment we first met him in Madame Malkin's. >I'm turning the question around. What is with the people who INSIST and PERSIST that Draco is this gentle sheep in wolf's clothing? Where do they get that idea? What has Draco Malfoy (whose very _name_ means BAD for kermit's sake) ever done in any of the canon anywhere that has people believing that he's good, I just know he is I can change him mama my love can make him a better person?!??!?!?!?!?< Betsy: I *do* see evidence that JKR hasn't totally written Draco off in the canon. Not that I think he's this wonderful child right at this moment who's just been misunderstood. But there are glimpses of something more in Draco, and JKR gives us those glimpses quite deliberately, IMO. First are the three times in PS/SS that Draco tries to befriend Harry. He goes about it completely wrong (and manages to win himself a detention the third time 'round) but it strikes a sympathetic chord in me to see someone try and make a friend and through awkward social skills muck it up so badly. Why would JKR include those scenes? Why would she have Draco working so hard to *impress* Harry in Mdm Malkins instead of merely sneering at the boy in the raggedy muggle clothes? Why have Draco try and get Harry to shake his hand on the train? Why have him *not* go running to the first professor he can find (or his head of house for that matter) when he realizes Hagrid has a dragon and Harry is in on it? These are three occasions for Draco to come off as a complete and total drip, and instead JKR slips in strong suggestions that Draco actually *wants* to be Harry's friend. Then there's the big Seeker vs. Seeker show down that we see book after book. Why does Draco *never* win? Why doesn't JKR give him at least one opportunity to play the horrible, ungracious winner and have Harry fulfill the role of noble underdog? And notice that when it comes down to the "big game" in PoA, she doesn't have Draco act unbearably cocky. Even Harry notices that he's remarkably pale (read nervous) before the match. Harry wins (of course) and Draco is noticeably subdued (noticable enough for Harry to remark on it). Draco fears losing to Harry, does lose to Harry, and he's hurt by the loss. Do I sympathize? Heck yeah. What has JKR done to discourage me? I can't fail to mention the infamous "ferret bounce" in GoF where Draco is publically abused by a teacher in a manner we won't see again (though Umbridge threatens Fred and George with a similar fate in OotP). And how does he react to his treatment? Draco's curled up on the floor in pain and humiliation and he's *still* spitting defiance at the person who's so obviously way beyond his match. Does JKR seriously expect me to *not* admire that sort of backbone? And isn't it interesting that it's by having Fake!Moody abuse Draco that JKR drops the first hint that this particular DADA professor ain't right. Just before Draco was attacked in GoF he displayed another trait that tugs at my sympathy strings. Draco loves him his mama. Oh sure, it's a good example of him not being able to take what he dishes out, but he gets furious when Harry attacks his mother. Couple that with the obvious love and admiration he has towards his father (well displayed at the end of OotP) and we have a boy who loves his family. Okay, so his dad's a Death Eater. Draco's a kid. He's only just reaching an age when children start reevaluating their parents. That he has a strong sense of love and loyalty to his parents just doesn't strike me as negative. And considering how much flack Percy has taken for turning *against* his parents (and I'm talking within the Potterverse here) doesn't it appear that JKR sees loyalty to ones family as a good trait? So again, she's sending us mixed signals here. I don't think I'm crazy to think she's got *something* up her sleeve when it comes to Draco's future. >>Betsy: >But does JKR succeed in getting across that Draco is evil? >>SSSusan: >She does for me. Buckbeak, his taunting of H/R/H, his constant put- downs and threats about Mudbloods and Lupin and Hagrid, his attacks on Harry, his insults of the Weasleys, .... I don't see how this ISN'T succeeding at showing us that he is, if not evil, damn near close, and certainly not likeable.< >>imamommy: >What clinches it for me is Draco's attitude in CoS. He openly says "You'll be next, Mudbloods" and to his cronies he expresses the desire that Hermione will be killed. That's pretty extreme for a 12 year old.< >>Gerry: >I think one reason why people don't see the evil of Draco is that it is not related to huge, clear-cut incidents. We see it in some actions, parts of conversations. You have to pay attention, but for me JKR did an excellent job in convincing me Draco is not nice.< Betsy: But all of the examples cited just *aren't* evil -- not by Potterverse standards, anyway. Draco at 12 expresses a wish that Hermione dies? Harry has vivid daydreams about killing Snape. Those are empty fantasies, IMO, and fairly typical of young boys. Draco picks on the trio and insults those he dislikes? Again, not nice behavior, but certainly not *evil*. Heck, Sirius and James were more bulling than Draco back in the day, and *they* were the good guys. Draco is not a paragon of virtue. He is a nasty little boy with a lot of anger issues and a messed up value system, but so far he's not done anything, IMO, that can't easily be forgiven (as per rules of forgiveness within the Potterverse as set out by JKR) *if* he finally joins the side of Light. >>Hickengruendler: >IMO, a part of what makes you and the other fans hope is, that Draco so far hasn't done anything truly evil. He is so far more talk than anything else.< Betsy: You're exactly right, Hickengruendler. *At this point* Draco is still in a position to choose. Could he *become* the big evil? Sure, but he's not taken that step yet, IMO. >>Katherine Coble: >I don't think Draco's role is to serve as the "Schoolboy Bully" at all. I think Draco's role in the story is to serve as the peer manifestation of the external threat from the Death Eaters. He's the only thing within the walls of Hogwarts to keep the DE/V contingent alive as an ever-present danger, and thus serves that device.< Betsy: How? Would Harry be surprised if Draco became a Death Eater and attacked him? Wouldn't it make more sense, and be more in keeping with JKR's narrative pattern, to have an unexpected character be the peer Death Eater? >>Katherine Coble: >If anything, book 5 shows Draco growing even MORE despicable. Besides which--if he were going to be redeemed, it should have happened before his dad got caught. Now any redemption looks half-ass in my opinion.< Betsy: Darkest before the dawn maybe? And I don't see how removing such an obviously strong influence in Draco's life and thereby possibly prepping him to be open to other influences would constitute a half- assed redemption. It seems fairly realistic to me. (Think of all those kids who start rethinking their family philosophy when they go away to college.) And just to prove that not everyone rooting for Draco is unduly influenced by the medium that must not be named, here are a few essays I found. Sistermagpie's essay has an interesting comparison of the end of OotP and The Godfather movies. Maya's essays are roll on the floor funny and perfectly illustrate why I have a hard time buying Draco as the poster boy of evil. Sistermagpie: Family Honor http://www.livejournal.com/users/sistermagpie/58449.html Maya: Why Draco Malfoy Needs a Hug (pre-OotP) http://www.lasairandmaya.com/mayaraves/hugdraco.html Maya: Those Crazy Boys and Their Daddy Issues (post-OotP) http://www.lasairandmaya.com/mayaraves/daddyissues.html Betsy, who will add that she cut and pasted like crazy for this post and so people will notice that their comments may well be mixed up and not all snips are shown. I did my best! I swear! No sneaky out of context distortions were meant, and hopefully none have occured. From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun May 29 06:10:29 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:10:29 -0000 Subject: A riddle that has imortant implications on events in the ... In-Reply-To: <578f858d13b1b3852a74ecf91812057d@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129669 Katherine Coble I can't seem to get to that document, but historically speaking, the Royalists didn't use the guillotine. That was the toy of the Revolutionaries. Not sure how this pertains to the Potterverse, though... Well, they DID use it in so far as they (the Royalists) were the ones to directly partake of its particular charms....... ;-p tinglinger The exact facts of the dream are not important .... the flaw in the story is more basic than that...... and the particular incident that the riddle related to is the events alleged to have occurred at Godric's Hollow on that fateful Halloween night From kking0731 at gmail.com Sun May 29 06:42:26 2005 From: kking0731 at gmail.com (snow15145) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 06:42:26 -0000 Subject: Bad Slytherins/ Good Slytherins (was Does JKR want us to hate Draco? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129670 imamommy: I have never agreed with this view. The trait of ambition is not evil by itself. If there is any flaw in the way this is written, it's that very few of the Slytherin's *are* ambitious. Would you describe Crabbe, Goyle, or Montague as ambitious? If anything, too many Slytherin's just follow the crowd. Snow: So then it is just peer-pressure that causes a child to react to the house in which he resides? If you are in Hufflepuff, you automatically realize that you are NOT book-learned (Ravenclaw) or BRAVE (Gryffindor) or AMBITIOUS (Slytherin) and then, you adjust to the spirit of said house? OR are the Slytherin ambitions justly amplified by the moronic viewpoints of their forefathers that they are so Ambitiously trying to represent? Ambition can take on many forms. Ambition on the right side can be an overwhelming attribute but on the wrong side can be nothing less than fatal. Just my cents worth Snow From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun May 29 08:11:20 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 08:11:20 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129671 Betty Why would JKR include those scenes? Why > would she have Draco working so hard to *impress* Harry in Mdm > Malkins instead of merely sneering at the boy in the raggedy muggle > clothes? Why have Draco try and get Harry to shake his hand on the > train? Why have him *not* go running to the first professor he can > find (or his head of house for that matter) when he realizes Hagrid > has a dragon and Harry is in on it? These are three occasions for > Draco to come off as a complete and total drip, and instead JKR slips > in strong suggestions that Draco actually *wants* to be Harry's > friend. Gerry: Does he? In the first scene we see him showing off, trying to impress. Not wanting to be Harry's friend, but wanting to be acknowledged as his superiour. In the second scene he does not want to be Harry's friend, he wants to be HARRY POTTER's friend. If Harry was just another normal half-blood he would have looked down his nose at him. As for the dragon, I cannot remember the scene you refer to and I cannot find my copy of PS, but he more than makes up for it in setting Harry up with the duel, and trying to get him expelled when he is relocating Norbert. Betty > loss. Do I sympathize? Heck yeah. What has JKR done to discourage > me? > Made it clear Draco has bought his place on the team. And now he has to compete for real, against somebody who got his place on merits alone. I actually thought this scene a good lesson for Draco. It taught him money can sometimes buy you a position, but if you have it you yourself have to live up to it. > on the floor in pain and humiliation and he's *still* spitting > defiance at the person who's so obviously way beyond his match. Does > JKR seriously expect me to *not* admire that sort of backbone? Gerry: What backbone? He mumbles 'my father.' And running to daddy does not strike me as admirable. He also immediately stops when Moody calls his bluff. And > isn't it interesting that it's by having Fake!Moody abuse Draco that > JKR drops the first hint that this particular DADA professor ain't > right. Gerry: It is also the first hint as why he hates Death Eaters who have gone free. > That he has a strong sense of love and loyalty to his parents just > doesn't strike me as negative. And considering how much flack Percy > has taken for turning *against* his parents (and I'm talking within > the Potterverse here) doesn't it appear that JKR sees loyalty to ones > family as a good trait? So again, she's sending us mixed signals > here. I don't think I'm crazy to think she's got *something* up her > sleeve when it comes to Draco's future. Gerry: I don't think so. Percy takes flack not because he is disloyal to his family, but because does not recognise the true value of his family. He takes what helps his ambiton and the rules instead of the morally right position. He also makes horrid remarks about his family being poor, and sends back the christmas jumper. Sirus, who as a dark wizard family distances himself from them, just as his favourite cousin who married a muggle-born. Draco is certainly loyal to his family, and family is important to JKR, but she never encourages blind loyalty. That being said, she does a good job to make it clear that Draco really loves his dad, and is really angry that he is in prison. A totally natural reaction. For the first time, we see Draco actually suffer, which makes him more human. > Betsy: > But all of the examples cited just *aren't* evil -- not by > Potterverse standards, anyway. Draco at 12 expresses a wish that > Hermione dies? Harry has vivid daydreams about killing Snape. Those > are empty fantasies, IMO, and fairly typical of young boys. The situation is different. There is no real danger to Snape. In CoS however, there is a very real danger to muggle-borns and the first time the chamber opened a muggle born died. Also, Draco wants to help the Heir, he wants to play an active part. There is also the difference in behaviour when they discover petrified mrs. Norris. Harry, who detest Filch feels sorry for him. Draco grins when he sees the petrified cat. Draco does not join in the cheering when it is announced the mandrakes are ready. Betsy Yet, it still could be a fantasy from a schoolboy who Draco > picks on the trio and insults those he dislikes? Again, not nice > behavior, but certainly not *evil*. Heck, Sirius and James were more > bulling than Draco back in the day, and *they* were the good guys. Gerry James and Sirius certainly were bullies, but only against Snape, and the feeling was mutual. Draco loves the misery of everybody he does not like. As for the fantasy. It certainly could be the case. However, the first real chance Draco gets to actively cause harm, he does so and enjoys it. I'm referring to the Buckbeak incident, which I would love to see explained away. The only thing Draco needed to have done is own up his part. Tell how he disregarded his teachers instructions, and how he faked most of his injury. Maybe the committee still would have found Buckbeak guilty, but Draco wants it to happen, and revels in it when it actually does. Betsy > Draco is not a paragon of virtue. He is a nasty little boy with a > lot of anger issues and a messed up value system, but so far he's not > done anything, IMO, that can't easily be forgiven (as per rules of > forgiveness within the Potterverse as set out by JKR) *if* he finally > joins the side of Light. Gerry That I agree with, but I would want to see some very good reasons as why he would change. In one of the essays you posted somebody excuses Draco joining the Inquisitorial Squad as him choosing the force of law and order. Not a bad point. But how do we see Draco use his power? We see him abusing it. Also, Draco knows LV is back, he knows Harry is right and Umbridge and the Ministry are wrong and misleading the pubic and the students. With his joinig of Umbridge he deliberately helps her against spreading the truth. Now I do not say he needed to go against his father, but he could have stayed neutral. I do not think it is a coincidence that half the squad we know by name are children of Death Eaters, who have an interest in having the truth stay covered. > Betsy: > You're exactly right, Hickengruendler. *At this point* Draco is > still in a position to choose. Could he *become* the big evil? > Sure, but he's not taken that step yet, IMO. Gerry He has not committed a major crime yet. But he has made plenty of choices that make clear that is he finally gets the opportunity, there is a really, really good chance he'd take it. > Betsy: > Darkest before the dawn maybe? And I don't see how removing such an > obviously strong influence in Draco's life and thereby possibly > prepping him to be open to other influences would constitute a half- > assed redemption. It seems fairly realistic to me. (Think of all > those kids who start rethinking their family philosophy when they go > away to college.) Gerry What removing? He in Azkaban without the dementors. Besides, the boy i s at boarding school, removed from parental authority for most of the year. Not much of a difference here. Gerry From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Sun May 29 11:26:08 2005 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 11:26:08 -0000 Subject: A riddle that has imortant implications on events in the ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > Katherine Coble > I can't seem to get to that document, but historically speaking, the > Royalists didn't use the guillotine. That was the toy of the > Revolutionaries. Not sure how this pertains to the Potterverse, > though... > > Well, they DID use it in so far as they (the Royalists) were the ones > to directly partake of its particular charms....... ;-p > > > > > tinglinger > The exact facts of the dream are not important .... the flaw in the > story is more basic than that...... > > and the particular incident that the riddle related to is the events > alleged to have occurred at Godric's Hollow on that fateful Halloween > night Renee : Is it that no one could know what the man was dreaming because he died without regaining consciousness, and therefore couldn't tell anyone? And are you saying that no one could know know what exactly happened at Godric's Hollow because James and Lily are dead, Voldemort (assuming he actually knows what happened) never told anyone and Harry was too young to grasp it (though not too young to remember, as the Patronus lessons show)? Renee From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun May 29 12:26:22 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 12:26:22 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > Betty > > Why would JKR include those scenes? Why > > would she have Draco working so hard to *impress* Harry in Mdm > > Malkins instead of merely sneering at the boy in the raggedy muggle > > clothes? Why have Draco try and get Harry to shake his hand on the > > train? Why have him *not* go running to the first professor he can > > find (or his head of house for that matter) when he realizes Hagrid > > has a dragon and Harry is in on it? These are three occasions for > > Draco to come off as a complete and total drip, and instead JKR > slips > > in strong suggestions that Draco actually *wants* to be Harry's > > friend. Yes! I found my copy back. Scene 1): Immediately after Harry is placed nest to Draco, Harry gets his robe slipped over his head. It is very well possible that Draco did not get a good look at Harry's muggle clothes. So they are just two boys in new school robes in a probably posh shop (Hagrid takes him to the best shops.) Scene 2): Already explained, not Harry for himself, but famous Harry Potter.... Scene 3): Malfoy keeps his mouth shot, for a couple of weeks, in which he comes to the hospital wing to gloat at Ron and to threathen him he will display the secret. He does not once approach Harry to tell him he will keep his mouth, and Hagrid's secretis safe. In the end he does betray them, when he gets captured by McGonnagal, when Harry and Ron are under the invisibility cloak. I must really miss something here, as I cannot find any attempt at friendship here. Gerry From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun May 29 12:43:00 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 05:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re:HBP/Harry/Sirius/Snape/Patronus/Sn./Neville/Sn./Doge/C.Drac./Kreachur/abusedH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050529124300.47840.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129674 --- "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Phoenixgod2000 wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129434 : > << Snape lets him down when he tries to get Harry expelled *every > single year*. >> > > I am sure that Dumbledore would never allow Harry to be expelled, > because the Chosen One needs the Hogwarts education and because > Hogwarts is the safest place for the Chosen One to await his > destiny. I am sure Snape knows that DD would never allow Harry to > be expelled. Therefore, I think it might be more accurate to refer > to Snape as 'he pretends to try to get Harry expells *every single > year*'. Not every single year; Snape hasn't threatened Harry with that since POA. And when he had a headmistress who was actively looking for an excuse to expel Harry, he could have arranged it. But we can safely assume he didn't - because Umbridge would have jumped on the chance. Snape's threat of expulsion is his idea of a threat to keep Harry in line. After all, since in Snape's mind Harry has the same personality as James, to deprive Quidditch star Harry of his adoring audience of fans would be a fate worse than death and therefore the ultimate punishment. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun May 29 12:57:58 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 05:57:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050529125758.77259.qmail@web53109.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129675 She certainly doesn't intend for us to like him. Draco's problem is that he's basically a wuss - up until the end of OOTP. He can't move without Crabbe and Goyle protecting him, he's always careful to check for teachers before starting up with Harry, there's no real sense that he appreciates what the DE/Voldemort situation really is (I'm sure he has a hazy idea that Lucius and Voldemort are "bestest mates" and that it's some kind of peer relationship). The biggest sun on his horizon is his father, whose status and abilities he sees as second to no one on earth. There is no internal fortitude to Draco. He's never prepared for Plan B because he never assumes Plan A will go wrong - even though it almost always does. (Nailing Harry, Hermione and Neville with Norbert was just about the last time something went according to plan.) His first response to any adversity is to yell for Daddy and he is completely incapable of keeping his mouth shut, always blurting out heavy-handed hints of what his father is going to do, or what is going to happen and giving Harry et al advance notice so they can prepare. The only important thing about Draco, plot-wise, is that I can see him as the main reason Lucius might be having second thoughts about this whole immortal-Voldemort thing. Lucius seems to have a pretty clear-eyed view of his son and heir, and the thought of Draco being head of the family and dealing with Voldemort probably gives Lucius nightmares. In that way I can see Draco's existence giving Snape some negotiating space if he's trying to talk Lucius into pulling back from Voldemort at a critical moment. But Draco is just too small and petty a character for me to take him seriously as a major character. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tinglinger at yahoo.com Sun May 29 15:06:24 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:06:24 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved - congrats Renee! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129676 Renee : =========================================================== Is it that no one could know what the man was dreaming because he died without regaining consciousness, and therefore couldn't tell anyone? And are you saying that no one could know know what exactly happened at Godric's Hollow because James and Lily are dead, Voldemort (assuming he actually knows what happened) never told anyone and Harry was too young to grasp it (though not too young to remember, as the Patronus lessons show)? tinglinger ============= Great work, Renee! If noone else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged events that occurred there (in particular Lily's sacrifice which is so vitally important to the plot), then JKR violated the Omnipotent Observer rule of writing (i.e. a story must be verifiable in order to have validity.) JKR has been very careful not to violate this rule -- note the dream about Quirrel's Turban, Slytherin, and Malfoy that Harry had at the end of Chapter Seven - The Sorting Hat in SS. Jo notes that Harry "woke, sweating and shaking." at which point he seemed to have recalled the dream. But then, "He rolled over and fell asleep again, and when he woke next day, he didn't remember the dream at all." If she had left out the part where Harry woke up and then went back to sleep, a reader might have some doubt as to whether the dream happened since it never reached Harry's conscious mind. The "woke up, sweating and shaking" part tells us that Harry did experience the dream, even though he couldn't recall it later. SO........... what does all this tell me ? SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents were murdered. As for who .... tinglinger who loves Harry Potter theories. If you do too, you will find some of the more interesting ones that I and 55 other members have dreamed up since March at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots Renee, you are specifically invited to join and lurk all you want, it won't be as scary as Godric's Hollow, I promise ...... From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun May 29 15:15:51 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:15:51 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" wrote: > Betsy: > Okay, so this is the "JKR wants us to hate Draco but is such a bad > author she can't get it across in the text and is forced to give > readers a heads up in interviews and on her website," point of > view. In other words, readers *aren't* able to pick up that Draco > is evil to the bone. Only fans devoted enough to visit the website > and listen to interviews are able to realize how JKR feels about > Draco. You'll excuse me if I find such arguments as less than > satisfying. Eh, you asked "How do we know that JKR doesn't like Draco." If you want to ignore the cold hard external evidence, that's your problem, not mine. :) I take those sorts of things as a useful heuristic, to be ignored at my own risk of wild disappointment that I should have known better about. Lots of fans pick up on not liking Draco just from the text; JKR is instead really rather confused/amused by those who *don't* get it (who are, in the wide scheme of Potter fans, certainly a minority-- just a more vocal one on parts of the Internet as like-minded fans group together), which relates to a point below. > A casual search around the internet calls up quite a few thinking > folks who *do* hope for something better. Are *all* of them > fooling themselves? Or is there something *in the text* that gives > folks hope? It's all in the subjunctive mood. "I hope that", "I wish that", "Maybe in the future", etc. Except for those few who I did mention who think that Draco is fine and dandy as he is and it's Dumbledore and Harry who are the evil idiots. (I'm not really exaggerating here, either.) > Betsy: > When an author writes a book, doesn't she have ultimate control > over how much charisma or attractiveness a character will have? > And if that's the case, why has JKR loaded Draco up with so much > that book fans seem to like? I pause to snicker, although not in a malicious way. One of the most common critiques of JKR out in Slytherin-sympathetic land is precisely HOW strong her authorial voice is. She makes it very clear who she likes and who she doesn't. You have to (as has been demonstrated on this thread in ample evidence) rely a lot upon subversive readings of the text (X doesn't mean what we think it does), hypothetics (Draco will wake up and not follow his father!), or disagree with the moral vision of the books (I don't think that Draco's actions are bad at all) to get around the "Draco is a nasty person". Mind you, he's not out-and-out evil--but neither is he a positive. Readers read often as they want to read. You want to see Draco redeem himself from a downward path, so you accentuate aspects which can be read as maybe just being positive. If JKR were to spell everything out in complete black and white terms, it would be incredibly heavy-handed. Makes for good morality plays, but poor literature. And so an inch is made into a yard. There are those who argue that the DEs have some real points in their arguments and are possibly sympathetic characters. Are they picking up on what's in the text, or are they reading in for what they want to read? Much the same with those who want to apply ceremonial 'magick' to the books--is it possibly there, or is it only there if you want it to be? > If the only place to find out how a character should come across is > *outside* the text, has the author failed? (Or, more subversively, > could JKR be yanking our chain with her out of the books > commentary?) It's not the *only* place, as the preponderance of evidence and the more straightforward readings at present (that do not hinge upon future revelations or mitigations) point towards Draco being a nasty character. I don't think she's yanking our chain, although I could be wrong. There are several *excellent* possible test cases this book. Draco is one; Snape is another; ESE!Lupin is yet another. So I ask you all again to submit your betting pools to me, and I'll tally things up and see who's right and who's not, even if it takes until book 7. -Nora loves how some things in literature and in music really do come out objectively From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sun May 29 15:35:38 2005 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:35:38 -0000 Subject: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129678 > Potioncat: > I really don't know why Snape is allowed to treat students the way he > does. What is JKR thinking/saying here? Perhaps JKR and DD know > something about Snape we don't. Perhaps they, or at least DD, care > about Snape and are making allowances. Eloise: I'm sure they both know a lot. ;-) But before we ask why Dumbldeore allows Snape to treat students the way he does, I think we have to ask two questions. First, does Dumbledore actually *know* how he treats students and secondly why doesn't he interfere with all the other bad teaching that goes on at Hogwarts? The latter is a question that has been asked in the past, but posters tend to get particularly fixated on Snape's deficiencies. I am not commenting on those deficiencies, merely suggesting that they need to be put into a wider context of a school which has a number of teachers who, in there different ways, are far from ideal: a talentless Divination teacher (known by Dumbledore to be so, with the exception of the two prophecies), in PoA a charlatan of a DADA teacher (and surely Dumbledore knew that), Hagrid who (through the creatures he picks) is a danger to life and limb to all who set foot in his class, a History teacher who puts everyone in his classes to sleep. Why are any of these allowed to teach? I would suggest it is a) (within the books) possibly because Dumbledore wants them there for reasons other than their teaching abilities (I wonder if Binns *will* come into his own one of these days?) and b) (external to the books) because they are colourful characters whom JKR chooses to use as part of the background to the real story. It would seem that Snape gets decent results from his class. Does Dumbledore *know* how he treats his students? Possibly not. Although he gives the initial impression of being omniscient, we soon learn that there are many things of which he is either unaware or to which he chooses to turn a blind eye, MWWP's exploits for a start, or so it is implied. Potioncat: > Picture it now: Yearly Evaluation, DD says, "Well, Severus, you've > made improvements. This year we only had 10 complaints from students' > parents. Keep up the good work and let's make 5 our goal for next > year..." Eloise: I wonder whether in the Tough wizarding world there would be complaints from parents. Yes, they'd complain about a werewolf teaching their children, but those who'd been through Hogwarts in the days before Dumbledore was would be just as likely to tell their children to stop whinging and be glad that they're no longer subject to whipping or being hung from the ceiling in chains. Harry and Neville are the two who suffer most. We know that Harry doesn't complain, doesn't confide in Dumbledore, which is just as well, or the plot lines would be ruined. Would Neville? Hermione? Children in these kind of stories don't complain, they get on with it themselves. I am afraid that I am one of those readers, who although I can immerse myself in fantasy as much as the next person (don't ask) when it comes to discussing these books cannot forget that this is what they are: books. Now yes, JKR does seem to be giving various moral messages. But she is also telling a thoroughly good story and there are devices, including compelling and intriguing characterisation, which simply make stories better, more interesting and I am not convinced that there is a message in every aspect. Nor do I think that there is a necessity to take an overt moral stance on everything. I don't believe JKR is condoning or making allowances for his behaviour, just recording what "really" happened in her fictional world, just as Dickens recorded the wrongs that happened to children in Victorian England. JKR described Snape as "a gift of a character." Surely he is a gift exactly because he's so genuinely nasty, yet we know (hope, believe) he's on the right side. He's a gift because he's an enigma, because we don't understand what's going on with him. His relationship with Harry is the epitome of that conundrum as he repeatedly protects or attempts to protect this boy for whom (for reasons that seem not to be fully disclosed - another mystery) he harbours a genuine and deep- seated hatred. If Snape were not the nasty git almost all of us either love or love to hate, then he would not hold his perennial fascination, he would not be that gift of a character and this board would be a lot quieter. Which brings me to a final point, which is that in this series, which is influence by so many different genre, one of the necessary features seems to be that the protagonist is always fighting against something. Now ultimately, he is fighting Voldemort, but it is the essence of the heroic element of the stories that the hero keeps coming across new difficulties and hurdles to cross in pursuit of that final aim. Snape frequently performs that function. He gets in the way, he puts him down, he acts as a lesser, foreground enemy, maintaining tension when the real enemy is in the background. I would be interested to know what others think the effect on the story would be if Snape were a nice guy who treated his pupils fairly. ~Eloise From Snarryfan at aol.com Sun May 29 15:52:22 2005 From: Snarryfan at aol.com (evita2fr) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 15:52:22 -0000 Subject: Wolfsbane. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129679 In a group on LJ, someone make a reflection which make me think. Are we sure the potion is needed all the week before the full moon? It's the usual interpretation, but Remus said he'll 'probably take it again tomorrow', when Snape ask if he needs more of it. There're no precise dose. And in the shack, he said he must take it 'in the week preceding the ful moon'. Nothing about all the days, or I'm missing it. Now, if he must take it only once by week, it'd explain why the potion didn't work in POA. And if nor Snape, nor Remus can tell exactly how much he must take it, it brings more questions, like what are the variables? Remus' health? ingredients not all accessible in the same time? Christelle From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun May 29 16:46:34 2005 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:46:34 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved - congrats Renee! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129680 > tinglinger > ============= > If noone else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged events > that occurred there (in particular Lily's sacrifice which is so > vitally important to the plot), then JKR violated the Omnipotent > Observer rule of writing (i.e. a story must be verifiable in order > to have validity.) > JKR has been very careful not to violate this rule -- note the > dream about Quirrel's Turban, Slytherin, and Malfoy that Harry had > at the end of Chapter Seven - The Sorting Hat in SS. Jo notes that > Harry "woke, sweating and shaking." at which point he seemed to > have recalled the dream. But then, "He rolled over and fell asleep > again, and when he woke next day, he didn't remember the dream at all." > If she had left out the part where Harry woke up and then went back > to sleep, a reader might have some doubt as to whether the dream > happened since it never reached Harry's conscious mind. The "woke > up, sweating and shaking" part tells us that Harry did experience > the dream, even though he couldn't recall it later. > > > SO........... what does all this tell me ? > > SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents > were murdered. > > As for who .... Ginger sets her time turner and fails. Coming back to the present, she says: This has come up before. I tried to search the archives so I could properly credit people, but there were just too darn many posts. Going from memory, I'll sum it up into these categories: 1) Another person there. Guesses include: Peter, Snape, Hagrid, Sirius, Remus, Lucius (or another evil DE), a spy DE (most theories include Snape here), someone with an invisibility cloak (James'?) 2) Someone other than a person. Guesses include: A portrait (Gryffindor, Bowman Wright, a former headmaster...), a ghost, a house elf, a mirror like James and Sirius used for communication. 3) No one was there. Harry was taken to Hogwarts and his little memories put in a penseive during the missing 24 hours. I don't remember all the details, but someone suggested something like the Maurader's Map which would have tracked their movements, with a playback option if I remember correctly. Anyone else remember that? Did I even hear it here? I love all these theories. Does anyone have any more? Anyone want to step up and take credit for yours? Tinglinger, I am dying to hear yours. This is one of those situations where I can't come up with a plausible one of my own and am at the mercy of the creative types on the list. From kgpopp at yahoo.com Sun May 29 16:06:00 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:06:00 -0000 Subject: HBP prediction contest: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129681 1. Who will be the most major character to die? While I think Dumbledore will die I don't think it will happen till book 7 so I'm going to take a different road and guess that some of the bad guys die. Also since it is a war I think we may see a few deaths. Not sure how you will decide which is the most major character so I list'd a few in the order I think important. a) Lucius Malfoy and maybe Narissa (Driving Draco to hate both Harry and VD? A junior Snape :-) b) Bellatrix (Wishfull thinking hope Neville gets her) c) Karkarof (I think a few DE will get revenge) I think the order will also take a few hit but I don't have the heart to pick any. I'll leave that to JK. 2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," describe more.) Well I too will go with the old lion guy. I think he is an older wizard who maybe went to school with Dumbledore. He has been aboard and comes back to join the order help fight. 3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Humm hard to come up with something new, how about Lily was pregnant? Okay might be too soap operaish but what the heck. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? While I love the suggestions that Snape finally gets the job I'm going to agree with those who thought Dumbledore would be forced to teach the class. I think the other Order members will have to fight. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? I'm torn between Luna and Ginny. I want it to be Ginny because she seems like a stronger female charter. But Luna and Harry have a few things in common. Loss of a parent, people treat them as if they are odd, they do what they want. Okay coin flip heads it's Ginny. 6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? If it is a known charter then Amelia Bones. If a new then the Half- blood prince old lion guy. Guess I should pick so ...lets be different and say the Lion guy becomes the Minister but people don't know he is a half-blood at first. 7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? As was said before it's a pensieve. I think DD teach's Harry to use it and Harry sees the night his parents died. I assume that is why there is all the green light. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Definitely. I agree with all those who said the Snape/Harry tension is key to the story. The real question is does Harry get the O and get in on merit or does something else happen to get him in. not sure... 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Only if DD opens up all classes to all students due to the war. But if the rules stay them same I don't think Neville got an O so Snape woun't let him. Note: I don't think Neville will be too afraid to ask/register. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I think it would be tried to have Harry always beating Ron, so I'm going to say that both Ron and Hermione got more OWLs the Harry, but not necessarily better grades. Transfiguration Harry E, Ron E Hermione O Charms Harry O, Ron O, Hermione O Potions Harry O, Ron O, Hermione O DADA Harry O, Ron E, Hermione E Astronomy Harry A, Ron A, Hermione E Herbology Harry E, Ron E, Hermione O COMC Harry O, Ron O, Hermione O Divination Harry A, Ron A, Hermione NA History of Magic Harry P, Ron A, Hermione O Arithmancy Hermione O Runes Hermione E Muggle Studies Hermione O Harry:8 Ron:9 Hermione: 11 Predictions (0-10 points each): Make 5 predictions not covered in the Compulsory Question section. 1. The death eaters will get revenge on Karkarof for betraying them. They will try to use him, but their plan will fail (not because he does any noble) and in the end he will die. 2. We find out that Dudley's worst memory is ... finding out that Harry is a wizard. He is partly jealous as unlike his parents Dudley thinks it would be cool to be able to magic. Think of all the food and bullying he could do. But his fear is that Harry can now stand up for himself. 3. Draco will start down the Jr. Death Eaters path but when his father and mother are sacrificed to protect VD or his plan... he realizes he is trapped on the wrong side. I don't think he ever becomes a Harry or DD supporter but rather wakes up to the evil to which he has aligned himself. So he turns to Snape for help. 4. As punishment for losing the Orb prophecy Bellatrix is sent on a suicide mission and while she does die VD accomplishes his goal. (Hope that Neville get's her but I don't think he'll be the one. Maybe Lupin get to avenge Sirus). 5. okay I'm out of ideas so 1 shipper. I think Ron will finally realize that he has a crush on Hermione. Not sure if it will take Krum's return to get this out in the open or if it will come out when he stands up for her. From cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com Sun May 29 16:26:47 2005 From: cleverestwitchofherage at yahoo.com (cleverestwitchofherage) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 16:26:47 -0000 Subject: HBP/Harry/Sirius/Snape/Patronus/Sn./Neville/Sn./Doge/C.Drac./Kreachur/abusedH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Cleverwitch predicted in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129503 : > > << We will learn who killed Broderick Bode. My money is on Elphias > Doge. >> > > Is that because his name sounds dodgey? cleverwitch here: Actually, no. It's because his voice is described as "wheezy" and the wizard with the ear trumpet who asked for Broderick Bode at St. Mungo's was also described as having a "wheezy" voice. (I've mentioned this before, but no one commented on it.) It makes as much sense to me as the observation about The Hog's Head smelling of goats hinting that the bartender is Dumbledore's brother. From hambtty at triad.rr.com Sun May 29 17:05:17 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:05:17 -0000 Subject: Book from Black's house Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129683 I've read OOP a couple of times but it took listening to an audio CD to bring my attention to a little clue (perhaps). I tend to skim paragraphs sometimes - one just cannot afford to do this with HP books. When they are cleaning the Black House, Sirus used a book to swat a creature off of Harry. This book was titled, "Nature's Nobility: A Wizardry Genealogy". Why would JKR mention the title? I think Harry will remember where he saw this book and use it to uncover the HBP. I still think that Draco is not pure blood and that is the main reason his mother did not want him going to Durmstrang. Durmstrang's application process might have revealed that her line is not as pure blood as she has led Malfoy to believe. From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 29 17:08:03 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:08:03 -0000 Subject: Wolfsbane. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evita2fr" wrote: > In a group on LJ, someone make a reflection which make me think. Are we sure the potion is needed all the week before the full moon? > > It's the usual interpretation, but Remus said he'll 'probably take it again tomorrow', when Snape ask if he needs more of it. > > There're no precise dose. > > And in the shack, he said he must take it 'in the week preceding the ful moon'. > > Nothing about all the days, or I'm missing it. > > Now, if he must take it only once by week, it'd explain why the potion didn't work in POA. And if nor Snape, nor Remus can tell exactly how much he must take it, it brings more questions, like what are the variables? Remus' health? ingredients not all accessible in th same time? Pippin: Ah, someone else has noticed the clue that points straight at EverSoEvil!Lupin. Lupin is obfuscating. He *must* know how much potion he needs to take, or it would hardly be safe for Dumbledore to let him spend his transformations curled up in his office -- he'd need to be confined in the Shrieking Shack or some other place that even those experts Fred and George couldn't break into. Teachers' offices, we are reminded once again, are not secure. The extra potion makes it possible that Lupin did indeed take his required dose on that fateful night, nipping down to Snape's office to help himself from the cauldron, then dashing out to the Shrieking Shack. In which case, Pettigrew's escape was no accident. Pippin From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun May 29 17:26:41 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:26:41 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129685 Betsy: > If the only place to find out how a character should come across is *outside* the text, has the author failed? (Or, more subversively, could JKR be yanking our chain with her out of the books commentary?) Pippin: JKR's interest runs counter to ours. She wants to hype the dramatic tension, we are trying to resolve it. Suppose she wants to have Draco be redeemed, is it not obvious that he has to do something seriously evil first? Slaughter the youngl-I mean, ickle Firsties, or blow up a planet or something? The main obstacle I see to redeemed!Draco is that he hasn't done anything evil enough to make it dramatic. I think a lot of the impetus behind Fanon!Draco is actually Fanon! Harry. Canon!Harry is a tough, scrappy kid who's more than a bit of a scamp -- he doesn't need a lovable scoundrel for a sidekick, there isn't enough contrast. But there's a tendency in fandom to see Harry as a lot more vulnerable and innocent than JKR portrays him. That leaves the lovable scoundrel role open, and Fanon! Draco was created to fill it. Pippin From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Sun May 29 17:41:48 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 10:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Riddle solved - congrats Renee! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050529174149.15715.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129686 > tinglinger > SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents > were murdered. As for who .... > My money's on Pettigrew. Not that he wanted to be there at first, but Voldemort..."insisted"...in his own unique special way that Pettigrew come along. It really is the kind of sadistic thing Voldemort would do. I think the plan then was for Sirius, having arranged to check on Pettigrew that night, would do what he said in POA he did: get nervous and go to GH to make sure everything was all right. Except that he would run into a triumphant Voldemort who would kill him. Peter would then be able to blubber to Dumbledore that he'd killed Sirius in self-defense and out of rage at his betrayal of the Potters. Then Pettigrew could return to the Order and resume spying, having proved his loyalty credentials... Didn't work of course, but that was the plan. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From k.coble at comcast.net Sun May 29 18:09:00 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 13:09:00 -0500 Subject: Predictions WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Book from Black's house/Good?Draco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129687 On May 29, 2005, at 12:05 PM, B.G. wrote: > I've read OOP a couple of times but it took listening to an audio CD > to bring my attention to a little clue (perhaps).? I tend to skim > paragraphs sometimes - one just cannot afford to do this with HP > books.? When they are cleaning the Black House, Sirus used a book to > swat a creature off of Harry.? This book was titled, "Nature's > Nobility:? A Wizardry Genealogy".? Why would JKR mention the title?? K: First, let me apologize....I've been lurking so long I didn't remember we were to keep our posts to 3 a day. So, I'll try to fit everything into this one. I think JKR mentions the book, because IMHO I think that it is key to one of the points of the story. I think that these books are very populist in nature, and designed to point out the flaws in the current class system in Britain through the use of allegory. These books are VERY Anglo-Saxon/Celtic in nature and very anti-Norman. 1. All of the "good" guys have strong Anglo-Saxon or Celtic names. Potter, Longbottom, Granger, Weasly, Dumbledore, McGonagall, Hagrid, Finnegan, Thomas, etc. 2. Most of the bad guys have very Norman/French names: Malfoy, LeStrange, even Umbridge is from an old French word. When Tom Riddle decides to step over the line to evil, the first thing he does is change is Anglo-Saxon name to a Norman French name (Voldemort). In the history of the British Isles, there is a long tradition of a class system, which for the last 1000 years has been dominated by the peerage established by the Norman French, leading to a class system whereby your everyday folks are the Anglo/saxon/celts and the nobility are the normans. I think in her own way, as at least a side motivation, JKR is advocating an equalization of people based on merit and discarding old forms and traditions. The whole Pureblood view, backed up by things such as this book @ 12 Grimmauld Place, is to be viewed as both antiquated and barbaric. She speaks to this time and again, no more so than in _Fantastic Beasts_, where there is a lot of prattle from the books "author" about the painstaking classification system established by the wizards. They basically stepped into this extant world and decided to put everyone in their place. [as an aside note, I take great pride in the Centaurs who basically said "up yours" and refused to take part in the ridiculous classification rituals. Further, as a 3rd generation Welsh American I love that Jim Dale portrays the Centaurs as Welsh.] I do think that the actual STRUCTURE of the story is taken from other mythic and religious texts. However, I think that the ultimate point is for Harry to abolish the class system and unite the WW. Call it GhandiPotter if you want. As far as my educated guesses about upcoming mechanics: 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I still would like to see DD hang on till book 7, but I have to admit that I think it is probable that he will die in this book. That's the only reason I can think of that JKR had DD's confrontation with V at the end of book 5. Although I also think that Hagrid may die in this book, and that Grawp (G-d forbid) will take his place as the token Giant. 2. Who Is the Half-Blood Prince? Well, I think it is Godric Gryffindor, strictly speaking. I DO think that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor, much in the same vein as Salazar Slytherin being the Pureblood Prince, but Tom Riddle being his heir. I had been thinking the Dean Thomas route, but as I'm convalescing and re-reading some material I'm lead to agree with tinglinger that if Dean were that important she wouldn't have footnoted his history for us on the webpage. I also think that's the answer to why Voldemort expressly wanted to kill James and Harry but didn't feel it necessary to mess with Lily. Voldemort _knew_ that he had to eliminate Gryffindor's heirs, the remaining 2 being James and Harry Potter. 3. What is Lily's big secret? Pretty much her entire backstory. I don't know if there is one big secret, as opposed to just vast amounts of unknown about her. All we basically know is that she is Lily Evans, (yeah, good Welsh name!) of muggle birth. She has green eyes and a sacrificing spirit. And at some point she had her boyfriend over to her familiy's house where her jealous sister overheard talk of Azkaban. I think we'll find out that she's basically sacrificial in nature. She's the Theotokos of the story, if you'll pardon my use of that word in an analogous form. She's the mother of the sacrificial redeemer, who is Harry. We'll hear many more examples of her good nature over the next 2 books--her stepping in to help Snape was only the second of many. 4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I really think it will be someone we haven't met yet but who is an Auror. Dumbledore knows that they need to take it to the next level with the war on. 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? Ultimately he will end up with Ginny. I've read too many romantic books to know that when a little girl has a big crush on a boy they go through stages: 1. Longing and Admiration (PS/SS and CoS) 2. Acceptance and other people (Goblet of Fire) 3. Friendship (OotP) 4. Irritation (I predict this is what we'll get in Book 5. A lot of Elizabeth and Darcy-esque bickering) 5. True love and happily-ever-after. JKR thinks highly enough of Jane Austen that I'd be surprised if this relationship isn't purely Austenian. I think that maybe the Harry-romance of this book will be the flirtatious bickering with Ginny. 6. Who will be the Minister of Magic Amos Diggory or Susan Bones. I hope it's Susan Bones because I don't want to see a long drawnout plot of how Harry thinks that the new MoM hates him because he got his son killed. I fear that plot, though. It would go with the religious allegory. ("How can you be the redeemer if you couldn't save my son?" ) 7. What is the topic of the US cover illlustration? I have to go with Penseive. I think that this is illustrating DD showing Harry the execution of his parents, hence the long-awaited Godric's Hollow chapter and the furtherance of the explaination that Harry is the heir of Gryffindor. 8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Yep. And I'll feel like skimming every chapter of Snape snarling about it. 9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Yep. JKR needs to have him there for the literary device. Besides which, when he starts showing backbone by stepping up to Snape it will have to be in this setting. It doesn't show as much development if it is done in the corridor. 10. How many OWLs did Harry get? The minimum necessary to ensure that he stays on the Auror track, but with grades low enough that Snape gets to snarl about it in many paragraphs that I will be tempted to skim. BLUE BOOK PORTION (FREE PROGNOSTICATION....) 1. There is indeed a "good" slytherin who will come to light. I believe that it will be T. Nott. He's never been a toadie for the (very bad,unredeembable) Draco Malfoy. Added to that, JKR has seen fit to bless him with an Anglo Saxon name. 2. Luna and Ron will have a romance that will be very serious, but Luna will die leaving Ron free to end up with Hermione. (cf. Eponine, Marius and Cosette in _Les Miserables_) 3. Neville's parents will regain their memories after the confundus charm wears off. Unfortunately, Neville will have died in the Last Battle to avenge their honor. 4. Bill and Fleur will have a baby. Everyone loves babies. 5. The last chapter of the last book will be an epilogue,wherein we see that Harry and Ginny marry, have lots of babies and live happily ever after until his death. Upon his death the sentence will mention that "as they looked at him the family realized that there was no trace of a scar." (spoiler) This is very similar to the ending of _The Little White Horse_, which is why I think that JKR will go this direction. 6. Harry will have to transcend "death" at some point, most probably by "journeying behind the veil". 7. The Death Eaters get their name from the vast tradition of people the world over who believed that they could absorb the essence of those they killed if they were present for their last breath. In this way they believed that they could prolong their own lives. I believe that these are the "measures" of which Voldemort speaks in the graveyard at Little Hangleton when he talks about prolonging his life. I also believe that this shot at immortality is the carrot he dangled to get so many of his DEs to follow him. This strongly parrallels Nazi Germany, when the rationale for killing Jews and taking their money, possessions and businesses was given as "racial cleansing". Instead, Voldemort rationalizes killing half-bloods and their sympathizers as class-cleansing and the right of the nobility. The basic truth, though, is that this passel of selfish gits is simply trying to stay alive as long as possible. That's why the first book hits so hard on the acceptance of death being a good thing. QUOTED: > I still think that Draco is not pure blood and that is the main reason > his mother did not want him going to Durmstrang.? Durmstrang's > application process might have revealed that her line is not as pure > blood as she has led Malfoy to believe.? K: I think that would be ironic, but I don't tend to agree. I honestly don't think there is much more to Draco than to serve as the villain. I sure hope not, anyway. I've sat through enough romanticization of villains with the Episodes I-III movies to last a lifetime. I sure don't want Harry Potter to turn into that. Besides, I don't want Draco to be half-blood because I don't want it to be the kind of thing that is viewed as a Gotcha! I want him to be Wizard Nobility so that he as an evil prat stands in stark contrast to the good in the half-blood crowd. > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/ > hbfile.html K: FYI: I tried to follow this link, but it appears to be dead. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun May 29 19:15:45 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:15:45 -0000 Subject: HBP/Harry/Sirius/Snape/Patronus/Sn./Neville/Sn./Doge/C.Drac./Kreachur/abusedH In-Reply-To: <20050529124300.47840.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich > Not every single year; Snape hasn't threatened Harry with that since > POA. And when he had a headmistress who was actively looking for an > excuse to expel Harry, he could have arranged it. But we can safely > assume he didn't - because Umbridge would have jumped on the chance. I disagree. I think Snape really does want to get rid of Harry. He wants to remove every last trace of James Potter from Hogwarts. I think he has no idea how important the kid is to the war. If he did, and still treated Harry that way, then I would lose whatever flickering embers of respect I have for the man (he is brave to spy, I give him that). As for Umbridge, I don't think she wanted to expel Harry, I think she wanted to break him. everything she did the entire year was an attempt to break Harry's will. she wanted the boy who lived to admit he was wrong and the ministry was right far more than she wanted him gone. he was too valuable for that. You are right. I was exagerating when I said he tried to expell harry every year, although its seems that way to me sometimes. I still think my orginal point about Snapes gratefulness stands. it was this: Snape lets Dumbledore down when he treats a boy that Dumbledore *loves* like crap. That is why I think Snape is an ungrateful git to a man who deserves better from him. phoenixgod2000 From jmrazo at hotmail.com Sun May 29 19:33:05 2005 From: jmrazo at hotmail.com (phoenixgod2000) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:33:05 -0000 Subject: Predictions WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Book from Black's house/Good?Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129689 > K: > 5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? > > Ultimately he will end up with Ginny. I've read too many romantic > books to know that when a little girl has a big crush on a boy they go > through stages: 1. Longing and Admiration (PS/SS and CoS) 2. > Acceptance and other people (Goblet of Fire) 3. Friendship (OotP) 4. > Irritation (I predict this is what we'll get in Book 5. A lot of > Elizabeth and Darcy-esque bickering) 5. True love and > happily-ever-after. > > JKR thinks highly enough of Jane Austen that I'd be surprised if this > relationship isn't purely Austenian. > > I think that maybe the Harry-romance of this book will be the > flirtatious bickering with Ginny. I know nothing about Jane Austen or any of the other romantic novels that people use as evidence for a H/G romance, but I have to ask. Would JK really use the flirtatious bickering (fb) model twice? Don't Ron and Hermione already have that one locked up? It seems to me like that would be retreading old ground. I think Harry, if he has a real relationship, is going to want one that is way less complicated and confrontational than fb with Ginny. I don't think he has the emotional tools for that. when Harry fights, he goes all out. no holding back, no gentle chiding. Harry is going to end up with an even tempered woman who knows how to defuse him, not escalate him like Ginny. My guess would be Susan Bones. This is how I see it happening. Amelia bones becomes the new MoM and Susan, who lives with her IIRC, becomes a lot more well known and famous within the school and hates it as much as Harry. She stays after DA meetings to comiserate with him about the pains of sudden fame. they talk a little, and before Harry can stop himself, he asks her out to hogsmead for a weekend date. he marvels at how much more natural it felt than dealing with high pressure cho and they have a great time. steal a few kisses in between the halls, and poof, Harry has his first real girlfriend. Works, flows naturally, and best of all, she isn't is as annoying as InstaCool!Ginny. please, god let it work out this way. I can't take a long H/G ship that lasts two books. I also see genuine Harry/Luna sparks that could eventually lead to something, but I think Susan Bones is the best bet. phoenixgod2000 From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 29 19:56:42 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:56:42 -0000 Subject: More thought about Draco. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129690 May I apologise in advance because I am writing this post using a friend's computer while away on a weekend in Cardiff; hence my HP books are sitting in my bookshelves 25 miles away in a direct line and 105 miles by road! So I may not be able to quote canon with my usual ease. I think that what I want to say will be, like most people's contributions, subjective rather than objective. Unlike Snape, to whom I have never been drawn, I have always had a sneaking sympathy for Draco because I feel that many of his less pleasant traits have been shaped by his background. Perhaps my sympathy has been aroused by a quote from C S Lewis, ? the opening sentence of "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader" (if I quote from memory correctly) reads "There was a boy whose parents named him Eustace Clarence Scrubb and he almost deserved it." An epithet which could almost cover our Slytherin friend! I have always held to the view that Draco /could/ move towards the side of light. As an evangelical Christian, I believe that no person is irredeemable unless by their actions and mindset, they finally make themselves so. Those of you who also know C S Lewis' "The Last Battle" will remember the dwarves who refuse to believe in the existence of Aslan and who finally become totally unable to see Heaven into which they have come and nothing can be done for them. In COS, Dumbledore famously remarked that it is not our abilities which make us what we are but our choices. I can see similarities between Draco, Dudley Dursley and Eustace Scrubb. They are all the only child in their respective families and they are all spoiled. They all want their own way; but in Draco's case, I believe there is also an element of lack of love and also loneliness. I wonder sometimes whether the marriage of Narcissa and Lucius had something of an arranged match about it and that, having produced an heir, Lucius is too involved with other matters to be really close to his wife. COS suggests that there is little affection between father and son ? although Narcissa appears to show some concern about Draco. In my contacts with young people over 30 years of teaching and even longer in church young people's work, I have often some across boys and girls who come from a family where there is little love shown and where the parents indulge the child's every whim (often in the shape of possessions) to satisfy their offspring. In many of these cases, the young people are spoiled and demand to be given whatever they want; Dudley creates merry hell with Vernon and Petunia if he doesn't get it and they give in with disastrous results to his development. Lucius obviously expects Draco to better the half-bloods and Muggle-borns because he is from superior stock and is prepared to an extent to bribe Draco to satisfy him but I see no desire to meet the boy's real needs. On the subject of Draco's loneliness, I have already said that he is an only child. He has grown up in an austere atmosphere. He has Goyle and Crabbe as sidekicks but I suspect that the level of satisfying conversation with them is minimal and there must be times when he wishes for friendship simple and untrammelled. What we see of inter-personal relationships in Slytherin suggests a lot of hostility towards other houses but little warmth towards each other so that the attitudes shown between members of, say, Gryffindor to each other must sometimes create a little envy and longing. This may have been at the back of Draco's initial approach on the train. OK, Draco had not struck it off well with Harry in Diagon Alley but that could possibly have been overlooked. Maybe Draco wanted to get the great Harry Potter onside but there may have been a factor of seeking friendship in it. Draco completely fumbles the approach; he is not perhaps used to trying to start new relationships and manages to alienate Harry because of his crass comments about Ron. But we have two pre-teens here. I remember changing schools at 11 from a Junior school to a day grammar school in South London where I knew no one; it took some weeks to really develop close friendships and there were one or two relationships which went sour for no real reason. I also know that, although I personally had loving parents, there were times when I lamented that I didn't have a brother or sister; I discovered later in life that my mother had had a miscarriage during my childhood and that wish could not be fulfilled. Rejection of friendship can often produce the other side of the coin ? enmity. This hatred has been allowed to grow over the years, fuelled partly by the rivalry between the two houses and has become a dominant factor as the two lads have grown into young adulthood. But Draco is on the receiving end of differing feelings. Anger because his father has been exposed as a death eater and sent to Azkaban; irritation at wanting be able to emulate Harry's popularity and success and the lack of a real, deep man to man friendship such as that enjoyed by Harry and Ron. Personally, I would like to see a rapprochement between Harry and Draco. What would produce the scenario and whether it could happen is an open question which lies in the hands of their creator. Maybe matters have gone too far. It may depend on how the Second War develops and how the influence of Hogwarts and the train of events impinge on those pupils whose sympathies lie with Voldemort, either through parental influence or their own leanings. Many people on both sides are going to have to make choices which will have a permanent influence on their futures and on their relationships with their peers. And one of those is Draco Malfoy. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 29 20:35:45 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:35:45 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved - congrats Renee! -Alternatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > Renee : > =========================================================== > Is it that no one could know what the man was dreaming because he > died without regaining consciousness, and therefore couldn't tell > anyone? > > And are you saying that no one could know know what exactly happened > at Godric's Hollow because James and Lily are dead, ... > tinglinger > ============= > Great work, Renee! > If no one else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged events > that occurred there, then JKR violated the Omnipotent Observer rule > of writing (i.e. a story must be verifiable in order to have > validity.) > > ...edited.. > > SO........... what does all this tell me ? > > SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents > were murdered. > > As for who .... > > > > tinglinger ... bboyminn: Well, the solution to the riddle is the solution to the riddle, and if you say that's it then that's it. But I think their is a slight flaw in the reasoning in your thougths on the riddle and on the 'Omnipotent Observer'. First, isn't it the /omniscient/ observer; or the 'third person omniscient narrator'. 'Omnipotent' means all-powerful; 'omniscient' mean all-knowing. So, if the narrator is all-knowing, then they are somewhat god-like in that they are able to know things that generally can't be known. I do agree however, that a good author has to be careful with the all-knowingness of the narrator. If the author goes too far, the story becomes absurd. Just as you can't jump on the time turner or veritaserum to solve any and all problems, you can relie on the all-knowingness of the narrator. In the Riddle, there is one person who knows the entire story, and that person is the dead man. The riddle could be related to us by the all-knowing ethereal spirit of the dead man; as a man, he knows the dream, and as a ghost, he know the events outside himself. Therefore, he is able to relate the complete event to us. In this sense, the ghost of the man is quite capable of being the omniscient narrator. As far as the events at Godric's Hollow, have you ever watched the TV show 'C.S.I.' (Crime Scene Investigation). It's their job to know what happened during a crime even when there are no witnesses to recount the events. The clues and evidence at the scene can lead them to very sound and reasonable conclusions. The question of how anyone could know what happened at Godrics Hollow has come up before, I think at bare minimum, Dumbledore and the Order examined the crime scene and were able to reach certain logical, though perhaps not absolutely provable, conclusion. From the clues, they were able to reconstruct a reasonable account of the events. Of course, from the many discussions of this, the idea that someone else was there has grown stronger and stronger. I would say that it has grown to the point where it is generally accepted. The most likely candidate so far is Peter. However, if Peter was there, he would not likely have recounted the events to Dumbledore. There is some chance that, directly or indirectly, Peter may have recounted the events to Snape who in turn informed Dumbledore. So, again, I'm not trying to be a spoil-sport. The answer to the riddle is the answer to the riddle. It's easy, after the fact, to come up with rationalized alternative scenarios. As a side note, I would like to point out that there is a huge difference between 'rational' and 'rationalize'. Don't know if it's worth anything, but there it is. Steve/bboyminn From drjuliehoward at yahoo.com Sun May 29 20:47:24 2005 From: drjuliehoward at yahoo.com (fanofminerva) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:47:24 -0000 Subject: Bad Slytherins/ Good Slytherins (was Does JKR want us to hate Draco? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" wrote: > > > SSSusan: > > She does for me. Buckbeak, his taunting of H/R/H, his constant put- > > downs and threats about Mudbloods and Lupin and Hagrid, his attacks > > on Harry, his insults of the Weasleys, .... I don't see how this > > ISN'T succeeding at showing us that he is, if not evil, damn near > > close, and certainly not likeable. > > > Potioncat: > I'm not sure if for the purpose of this, we're talking about how > Draco is viewed at discussion sites or also fan-fiction. Because what > a fan-fic writer does with a character may have very little to do > with what that writer thinks JKR is doing with the character. A fan- > fic writer can ask,"can I take this toad of a person and make him > seem like a prince?" > > I think JKR has shown that Draco is a horrible person. I've never > seen anything in canon that would even hint at any goodness in him. > The only reason she talks about it in interviews is because there are > fans who want to see him differently. I also think that she isn't > bothered at all by any bad thing that happens to him. And while many > readers are upset that Crouch!Moddy bounced him around, I think JKR > considers Draco had it coming. Whether it was a fair and appropriate > punishment at that given moment has been the source of other threads. > > Some readers are upset that 11-year-old students are comdemned to a > life of evil by the Sorting Hat. Keep in mind, no real child is > harmed by the sorting process. It's a work of fiction. And as to > that, I've known snotty little kids who continue to be jerks as they > grow up. Whether they were born that way or made that way, I cannot > say. > > There are those who like Draco and other Slytherins because they are > bad. The badder, the better. I stumbled onto a few of those sites > before I found HPfGU. Not pleasant places, I can tell you. > > And maybe there's a chance that some readers think Draco's going to > be "converted" because Snape seems to favor him. Snape, of course, is > JKR's other bad boy, and it really isn't certain how he will turn out. > > One of the other posts in this thread suggested that the Good > Slytherin (if there is one) will be someone who has been a minor > character, and who hasn't joined in with Draco. I think it's > important that T. Nott wasn't part of the hexing party on the train. > His father was also captured, but he doesn't seem to be involved in > revenge. > Potioncat One other thing to keep in mind is the impact of the actor in the movie playing the character on the subsequent interpretation of that character in the books. Take Snape, for example. I really like the actor Alan Rickman. Subconsciously, my like of Rickman is transferred to the character of Snape. When I read the books, I see the character played by Alan Rickman in my mind. Same thing with all the characters. Because Tom Felton is such a cutie, people see him when they read about Draco and transfer their reactions to Tom onto Draco. Although I do not read fan-fic, I would bet that this same process plays a role in that genre as well. The question that is really intriguing but cannot readily be answered is how would these characters be interpreted if we did not have the movies and the imprint of the actors? Is there anyone on the list who has never seen the movies, trailer, websites, etc., but who has read the books only? If so, their take on the characters would be very interesting to me. Julie From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Sun May 29 20:52:07 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:52:07 -0000 Subject: More thought about Draco. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I think that what I want to say will be, like most people's > contributions, subjective rather than objective. Unlike Snape, to > whom I have never been drawn, I have always had a sneaking sympathy > for Draco because I feel that many of his less pleasant traits have > been shaped by his background. Gerry First, my compliments on your post. I really like it. However, I have one huge problem with it. I don't believe upbringing is everything. That is too easy an anwer. Upbringing certainly can strengthen what is there, but cannot give certain character traits. The reason I really do not like Draco is that he is just plain nasty. He revel in the pain of other people. I can see his upbringing responsible for his view on Muggle-borns, his reaction to Ron, his trying to buy himself a place on the quidditch team, his reaction to Harry. I can easily understand him being lonely. But I cannot understand the casual cruelty Draco displays and revels in. No matter how je are raised to feel about muggle-borns, there is something pretty warped in a child who actually enjoys it when one gets hurt. There is talk and the first confrontation with reality. Lots of people with prejudice find that when something bad actually happens to someone of group they are prejudiced against, they really don't like it. I bet there are lots of people in Slytherin who are just as prejudiced as Draco, but it is Draco and his gang who did not join in the cheering when the mandrakes were ready. So lots of Slytherins did join in. And there are other examples of the enjoyment Draco gets from other people's misery. Now I can understand someone enjoying the misery of an enemy. We see this with Snape and James or Sirius. True hatred, cutting both ways. But enjoying the misery of people because you don't like them, helping to cause it? That goes much further than upbringing. George: Personally, I would like to see a rapprochement between Harry and Draco. What would produce the scenario and whether it could happen is an open question which lies in the hands of their creator. Gerry If it would happen, I would like some really convincing background story why he would change, and what this would mean for the nastyness he displayed before. I don't expect it to happen though. I think Draco really is a nasty piece of work, which would have come out no matter in what kind of a family he was raised. Gerry From nrenka at yahoo.com Sun May 29 21:02:36 2005 From: nrenka at yahoo.com (nrenka) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:02:36 -0000 Subject: More thought about Draco. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > In COS, Dumbledore famously remarked that it is not our abilities > which make us what we are but our choices. Sorry to do this, but you hit my absolute pet peeve misquote. Dumbledore says that our choices SHOW what we are. Not make. Show. Our choices reveal our character and our virtues; they reveal the results of our intentions as well as something about the intentions themselves. This seems to me to point towards this virtue ethics/character centered morality where choices are illustrative, not defining. What this means for Draco is that his choices are SHOWING something about what he is, his character. And so far it doesn't look too good--and now is the time for his choices to further show what intentions he has. -Nora doesn't quite like the show rather than make, but takes it as it is From tab1669 at elnet.com Sun May 29 19:21:48 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:21:48 -0000 Subject: Harry and Ginny Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129695 > I think Harry is going to end up with Ginny in book 6. I think she still like Harry. Ron even wants Harry to date his sister. He gave Harry a srange look when he told Ginny that the next time she dated someone she should choose someone better. (hint hint) Harry is pretty much part of the Weasley famly. Why not make it his real legal family in the end. flyingmonkeypurple From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 29 21:42:56 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:42:56 -0000 Subject: More thought about Draco. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nrenka" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > > > In COS, Dumbledore famously remarked that it is not our abilities > > which make us what we are but our choices. > > Sorry to do this, but you hit my absolute pet peeve misquote. > > Dumbledore says that our choices SHOW what we are. Not make. Show. Geoff: Allow me to remind you that I said I have not got my HP books immediately to hand. I think I have a reputation of normally quoting correctly. Also, our choices do show what we are /making/ of ourselves. Nora: > Our choices reveal our character and our virtues; they reveal the > results of our intentions as well as something about the intentions > themselves. This seems to me to point towards this virtue > ethics/character centered morality where choices are illustrative, > not defining. > > What this means for Draco is that his choices are SHOWING something > about what he is, his character. And so far it doesn't look too > good--and now is the time for his choices to further show what > intentions he has. Geoff: I also said that I believe, speaking as a Christian, that no person is irredeemable. If we all analysed what our choices have /shown/ about us through our lives, I think we would all quietly get up, turn out the lights and tiptoe away..... From BrwNeil at aol.com Sun May 29 21:50:27 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 17:50:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Ginny Weasley Message-ID: <13f.144fd32d.2fcb9323@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129697 In a message dated 5/29/2005 5:06:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, tab1669 at elnet.com writes: > I think Harry is going to end up with Ginny in book 6. I think she still like Harry. Ron even wants Harry to date his sister. He gave Harry a srange look when he told Ginny that the next time she dated someone she should choose someone better. (hint hint) Harry is pretty much part of the Weasley famly. Why not make it his real legal family in the end. flyingmonkeypurple I could accept JKR having Harry with Ginny, Luna or Hermione. What is important to me and what Rowling must do is convince me that the girl loves Harry for Harry and not because he is the boy who lived. For me, this is a negative for Ginny. The girl had a crush on Harry for a year before she physically ever even met him. At one time she was as much a groupie as all the girls that asked Harry to the ball. For me to support a H/G ship, I have to be convinced that Ginny's feelings are now actually sincere. This is where I feel more comfortable with both Hermione and Luna. Both girls recognized Harry for who he was, but that was the end of it. Neither wanted to take second looks or throw themselves at him. If a relationship develops with either of those girls, we will know it isn't because of hero worship. Besides, I'd sort of like to see Ginny get together with Neville. I think he has liked her since the Yule Ball. He also tried to come to her aid in OotP when the I.S. had her. Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun May 29 21:52:22 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 21:52:22 -0000 Subject: More thought about Draco. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > I think that what I want to say will be, like most people's > > contributions, subjective rather than objective. Unlike Snape, to > > whom I have never been drawn, I have always had a sneaking sympathy > > for Draco because I feel that many of his less pleasant traits have > > been shaped by his background. > > Gerry > First, my compliments on your post. I really like it. However, I have > one huge problem with it. I don't believe upbringing is everything. > That is too easy an anwer. Upbringing certainly can strengthen what is > there, but cannot give certain character traits. Geoff: I didn't intend to suggest that it was all due to background. What I tried to underline was that a number of behaviour tendencies exhibited by Draco have been exacerbated by his background. Loneliness and friendlessness for example. Things like being nasty and enjoying the discomforture of groups with whom you have no rapport can often spring from bitterness, frustration and rejection which do not necessarily correlate directly with background. I could cite the case of one of my own sons who, in general terms is very easy going and pleasant, felt let down and undervalued by a group to which he belonged and now will not hear a good word about them and glories in any misfortune which may involve this group. Draco's attitude is very similar to this but writ large. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 29 22:23:08 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:23:08 -0000 Subject: More-More Thoughts about Draco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129700 Great Draco discussion going on right now. One that I have posted it, but I want to make some independant points that are a little to broad to post as a response directed at someone else's statements. [Sorry, I didn't realise that there was already a 'More Thoughts on Draco' thread running. I posted using the same title, but now I'm reposting it under a slightly modified new title. Deleted the original, hope that doesn't cause problems.] -Symapathy for the Devil- In our overly liberal society we have fallen into the trap of thinking that anything that can be explained can be justified. For example, a juvenile is caught commiting a crime, he gets into court, and the first thing his lawyer does is point out that the kid lives in a bad neighborhood, he's influenced by gangs, he doesn't have a father figure, his mommy doesn't hug him, etc... etc.... These things do explain how and why the kid did what he did, which for some liberals is enough to excuse the kid, but this knowledge doesn't justify or excuse what he did. It's not societies fault that he mugged an old lady, that is a choice he made, and it is a choice that many kids in his same position did not make. So, the mere fact that it can be explained doesn't mean it can or should be excused. The same is true of Draco, we can look at his history and background, his family and social situation, and we can see what makes Draco who and what he is, and even have legitimate sympathy for him because of it. But those circumstances and our sympathy over those circumstances while they explain Draco, they don't justify or excuse his actions. JKR, in my view, has not painted Draco as evil, but she has painted him very much with the potential for evil. In the last book, JKR left Draco standing on at a precipice, teetering on the edge. Up until now Draco has been mean and nasty, but I still say it has all been in 'schoolboy' catagory. Draco now has sufficient motivation to do something truly dark and dangerous. His quarrel with Harry has now become deeply personal in that it rocks the very foundation of Draco's existance. Imagine, or at least imagine Draco imagining himself as poor; without social status or wealth. To someone like Draco, whose very existance is founded in social status and wealth, that is a fate worse that death. Up through the last book while JKR has confirmed that Draco is a mean nasty lout, she has refrained from allowing Draco to act with truly evil intent. I think the general flow of the story could allow Draco one truly dispicable act, and still have room for redemption. But we are nearing the point where Draco will fall over the edge and commit an act so terrible that he can never pull back from it, he can never be redeemed. In a sense, it is this moral uncertainty that makes Draco such an interesting and appealing character. Doesn't your mothering instinct give you the uncontrollable urge to try and 'fix him'? -Strategic Alliances- I've already spoken about how disfunctional I think Draco is. Sadly, in this sense, he is very much like Voldemort, and that is not a good sign. In some sense, Draco is so completely convinced of his own superiority, that any plan he has is instantly valid because it was conceive by a superior being, himself. No need to refine it or work out the details, or consult anyone else, just forge ahead with the perfect plan. A perfect plan like attacking Harry on the train; pure genius (he said sarcastically). Part of Draco's social disfunction is related to the nature of friendships. I don't think Draco is capable of true friendships, the best he can create is strategic alliances. He may still learn to overcome this as part of his redemption, but so far it eludes him. When Draco met Harry in the robe shop, he is not seeking or offerring friendship, but is evaluating Harry to determine if there is a potential for a beneficial strategic alliance. What's your surname? What do you think about 'those people'? Are you one of 'our kind'? My father has wealth and status, and your's? Are you my equal at Quidditch? Do you associate with underlings? In other words, are you worthy of me, and what can you do for me? Next we see Draco on the train, now he knows who Harry is, and he knows the strategic value of befriending him. When they meet again, Draco isn't simply introducing himself, everything he says is related to building himself up and putting others down. He points out to Harry the strategic value of the two of them forming an alliance. To Draco, friendship for friendship sake, in his value system, doesn't make sense, and he can't imagine why anyone would even consider being friends with a Weasley. There is absolutely no strategic value in that. Oh yes, perhaps there might come a time when one might lower himself to being friendly to a Weasley if it could get you something you wanted, but to actually be friends ... really, what's the point? In Draco's mind, he gains status by associating with the famous 'boy who lived'. Further, by offerring to help Harry make his way in the wizard world, Draco is creating a debt that he can call on when he needs Harry's assistance. Draco is not offering Harry friendship, because someone raised in Draco's disfunctional environment doesn't understand friendship. What Draco is offerring Harry is a self-serving alliance couched in the guise of an alliance that serves Harry. Harry on the other hand, can't understand friendship in Draco's format. To him, Draco's idea doesn't make sense. To Harry, friendship is a rare and valuable commodity to be treasured and guarded, and he simply can't risk that precious treasure just to protect Draco's feelings. We must ask, do you really think Grabbe and Goyle are Draco's friends? Draco keeps them around because their presence serves him, and Grabbe and Goyle keep Draco around because it serves them. It's a mutually beneficial strategic alliance. One that either of them would drop in a second if a better deal came along. As a side note, people have wondered how two dullards like Crabbe and Goyle could get into Slytherin. How can anyone consider them ambitious? Well, they very wisely aligned themselves with Draco, and even though they lack any brains, they can very easily ride Draco's coattails to a place of wealth and status in the wizard world. Seem pretty ambitious, and even more so, cunning to me. They are playing on their strategic alliances and working the resources they do have to their best advantage; its' just good business. Conclusion- Sympathy for Draco is legitimate and vaild as long as it is used to understand him, but not to excuse him. Draco is so socially disfunctional, that he doesn't understand true friendship. Friendship is about benenfit; no benefit, no friendship. Draco is not evil, so far, but he has shown the potential for evil, and now he has the motivation he needs to cross the line and do something truly dispicable and even irredeemable. A few more thoughts on Draco. Steve/bboyminn From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun May 29 22:23:50 2005 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:23:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Riddle solved - congrats Renee! References: <1117402980.2125.72355.m29@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004201c5649d$1885eb80$704b6d51@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 129701 Tinglinger wrote: >SO........... what does all this tell me ? > >SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents >were murdered. > >As for who .... Applying a tad of logic, we see that 1. Peter was there. Sirius found him away from home. Voldemort wouldn't have taken Peter if he didn't think it necessary (he would have been of great continuing use as a spy for the DEs have Voldemort been successful (as of course he intended to be) so he wouldn't have blown Peter's cover. Also JKR has commented (obiter) that it was Peter who recovered Voldemort's wand. I can't see the Ministry leaving that lying around until later. 2. No other wizards were there until Hagrid arrived. Had there been other DEs, then (a) there would have been nothing to stop them recovering Harry and disposing of him by non-magical means and (b) Peter would not have been allowed to make his getaway, and would have been closely interrogated on what had happened. Had there been members of the Order, then they would have rescued Harry themselves. 3. Hagrid didn't come alone. He's a good guy in a scrap, but sending him against Voldemort on his own would mean certain death. Also, by the time the Ministry wizards and the WW media arrived, Hagrid had to be gone with Harry, he couldn't afford to be seen doing magic or allow Harry to fall into the hands of the Ministry at that time. 4. Hagrid and whoever came with him were too late to help, but not too late to be eyewitnesses to Voldemort's overthrow. _Someone_ told the Ministry and the media what had happened and was able to satisfy them that Voldemort hadn't just walked away but was dispersed. My money (and I have no canon for this apart from the hatred which the DEs bore them) is that Frank and Alice Longbottom were with Hagrid that night. They were the ones who were on the front cover of the Prophet, were interviewed by the Wireless, and so on as having seen what happened up in the bedroom.. Which explains why the Lestranges hunted them down and tortured them for information. But JKR alone knows all cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From R.Vink2 at chello.nl Sun May 29 22:29:19 2005 From: R.Vink2 at chello.nl (Renee) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:29:19 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > Renee : > =========================================================== > Is it that no one could know what the man was dreaming because he > died without regaining consciousness, and therefore couldn't tell > anyone? > And are you saying that no one could know know what exactly happened > at Godric's Hollow because James and Lily are dead, Voldemort > (assuming he actually knows what happened) never told anyone and > Harry was too young to grasp it (though not too young to remember, > as the Patronus lessons show)? > > tinglinger > ============= > Great work, Renee! > If noone else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged events > that occurred there (in particular Lily's sacrifice which is so > vitally important to the plot), then JKR violated the Omnipotent > Observer rule of writing (i.e. a story must be verifiable in order > to have validity.) > > SO........... what does all this tell me ? > > SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents > were murdered. > > As for who .... > > > tinglinger > who loves Harry Potter theories. If you do too, you will find some > of the more interesting ones that I and 55 other members have > dreamed up since March at > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots > > Renee, you are specifically invited to join and lurk all you want, > it won't be as scary as Godric's Hollow, I promise ...... Renee: Thanks for the invitation... but I hope you don't mind if I disagree with your conclusion, now that you've confirmed this was what you were getting at. As bboyminn points out in message #129691, it is possible to think of a context in which the riddle ceases to be a riddle (though only if you're allowed to introduce extra elements, like the possibility of a ghost telling a story, which is cheating, in a way). However, the events at Godric's Hollow are not presented in a way that violates the the narrator perspective. Any details we get are derived from Harry's own memories, surfacing during the Patronus lessons, As Harry is the viewpoint character, there's nothing wrong with this. As for Dumbledore's knowledge of the events at Godric's Hollow: does he say anything in the books that cannot possibly be inferred or deduced from the results of Voldemort's attack? That he appears to be aware of what it was that Lily did to protect Harry, could very well be because he simply knows how such things work in the Wizarding World, not because someone witnessed it and told him (or, alternatively, told someone who in their turn told Dumbledore). Moreover, the first chapter of GoF proves that JKR does not limit the narrator perspective to what Harry knows (either first hand or through someone else) or remembers. So, if you're looking for an argument why there must have been a witness, `how come Voldemort's wand wasn't destroyed after Godric's Hollow?' sounds like a better question to me. Renee From bboyminn at yahoo.com Sun May 29 23:17:13 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:17:13 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Renee" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" > wrote: > > Renee : > > =========================================================== > > Is it that no one could know what the man was dreaming because he > > died without regaining consciousness, and therefore couldn't tell > > anyone? > > And are you saying that no one could know know what exactly > > happened at Godric's Hollow because James and Lily are dead, > > Voldemort ... never told anyone and Harry was too young to grasp > > it (though not too young to remember, as the Patronus lessons > > show)? > > > > tinglinger > > ============= > > Great work, Renee! > > If no one else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged > > events that occurred there (in particular Lily's sacrifice which > > is so vitally important to the plot), then JKR violated the > > Omnipotent Observer rule of writing (i.e. a story must be > > verifiable in order to have validity.) > > > SO........... what does all this tell me ? > > > > > > SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents > > were murdered. > > > > As for who .... > > > > > > tinglinger > > > Renee: > Thanks for the invitation... but I hope you don't mind if I disagree > with your conclusion, now that you've confirmed this was what you > were getting at. > > As bboyminn points out in message #129691, it is possible to think > of a context in which the riddle ceases to be a riddle (though only > if you're allowed to introduce extra elements, like the possibility > of a ghost telling a story, which is cheating, in a way). > bboyminn: I've thought of another god-like all-knowing being who could present the riddle ... the author. I do understand the nature of your riddle and it's answer, again, I accept that; the answer is the answer. But one could say that the author of the riddle is sufficiently omniscient to know both what happened inside the dream and outside. The Riddle is being presented as a puzzle to be solved, a series of clues that lead to a solution, not necessarily as a true account of real events. So, in this case, the author could be the ghost or someone in contact with the ghost, or simply be nothing more than an author of an interesting puzzle. Again, your puzzle, your answer, I'm not commenting on that specifically, but making a broader more general point. > Renee continues: > > However, the events at Godric's Hollow are not presented in a way > that violates the the narrator perspective. Any details we get are > derived from Harry's own memories, surfacing during the Patronus > lessons, As Harry is the viewpoint character, there's nothing wrong > with this. > > ...edited... > > So, if you're looking for an argument why there must have been a > witness, `how come Voldemort's wand wasn't destroyed after Godric's > Hollow?' sounds like a better question to me. > > > Renee bboyminn: On that point I agree, the narrative is consistent, but at the same time the entire series of books is filled with many many mysteries that are intended to keep us wondering and guessing. The 'mystery' aspect more than justifies the lack of full disclosure and explanation. That's part of what makes the books so captivating. As far as Godics Hollow, there are many elements to the mystery. How did people know what happened? How did Dumbledore know Lily sacrificed herself for Harry? How does anyone know that Lily was indeed killed before Voldemort attempted to kill Harry? How did Dumbledore know the Curse on Harry rebounded? It could have been something else. How did Peter get Voldemort's wand and robes? While there are many small clues dropped along the way, I think Voldemort's wand is probably the key. I vaguely recall someone asking JKR about it, of course she evaded the question, but in doing so, it implied that this was not a random error, and further that there is indeed a significant answer. I think the fact that many years later Peter had Voldemort's wand, points to him as the most likely person to have been at Godric's Hollow. I can think of other possiblities, but right now I'm leaning toward Peter. Just a few thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From sunnylove0 at aol.com Sun May 29 23:38:45 2005 From: sunnylove0 at aol.com (sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 19:38:45 EDT Subject: Theodore Nott: The Good Slytherin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129704 Love the Draco threads, everyone! I'd like to take a moment to compile what we know about Theodore Nott, the current lead candidate for the concept known as "the Good Slytherin". JKR's Website, under Extra Stuff: "As in the case of Dean Thomas, I know much more about Theodore Nott than has ever appeared in the books. Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's. OOP Chapter 21, p.445 (American edition) There were only two other people who were able to see them a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face... So, we have a boy who does not feel a need to join gangs, (and what else are the DE's, really?), who has seen and processed the image of death (required to see thestrals) and shows a general distaste for blood and guts. Much more moral an attitude than Malfoy's, especially for a boy from a DE's family. Also, there's the scene from the library (though he is talking with Malfoy and his bunch). I think it's rather significant that it is Hermione who knows his full name [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From betsymarie123 at hotmail.com Sun May 29 23:34:48 2005 From: betsymarie123 at hotmail.com (Betsy Corts) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:34:48 +0000 Subject: HBP contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129705 >Compulsory Questions (0-5 points each): 1. Who will be the most major character to die? I think it will be Hagrid this time and perhaps a Weasley too (Percy anyone?) >2. Who is the Half-Blood Prince? (If "The Old Lion Guy," >describe more.) My guess is Godric Griffindor hence the description of the old lion guy. >3. What is Lily's big secret? (This question will be eliminated >and full credit given to everyone if no big secret is revealed.) Big secret?? Huh... I thinks it has to do with something she made the night she and James were attacked (for example: the blood charm) which leads me to another thing, What is Petunia hiding from Harry and Vernon?? >4. Who will be the new DADA teacher? I will love to see Lupin again (though I think he isn't what he seems...) >5. With whom will Harry have a romantic relationship? He won't have time for a serious relationship... but I guess that by book 7, he'll be with Hermione. >6. Who will be the new Minister of Magic? I will love to see Amelia Bones as the Minister of Magic. It will be interesting to see how a witch manages Fudge's leftovers. >7. What is that bowl-thing on the green U.S. HBP cover? I will go with a pensieve... the Potter's pensieve. >8. Will Harry take Advanced Potions? Of course. >9. Will Neville take Advanced Potions? Nope. >10. How many OWLs did Harry get? I don't remember how many OWLS you could get, but I do know that Harry failed in History of Magic and Adivination. > >Predictions (0-10 points each): > >1. Harry will be in control of his emotions (post Umbridge, Sirius loss, >DoM) and he will speak about the prophecy with Hermione, Ron, Luna (yes... >Luna) and Neville. 2. Luna and Harry will become closer, not as a love relationship, but as a friendship where he can speak to her about his feelings and she won't be judgemental about it. 3. Neville will be more comfortable with his new wand and with himself. 4. Peter Pettigrew will surface again after spying on 4 Privet Drive. 5. Lupin will come back and will talk to Harry about his feelings for Lilly. 6. Dumbledore will teach Harry Occlumency and he'll master it. Betsy From oppen at mycns.net Sun May 29 23:42:22 2005 From: oppen at mycns.net (ericoppen) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 23:42:22 -0000 Subject: My prediction for Book Six... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129706 Since everybody's making with the predictions (hey, what is this, Divination class or something? If Trelawney starts predicting my death, I'll hurl) this is mine. Harry's stay at the Dursley residence, we are assured, will be the shortest ever. This will be because Snape, as an Order of the Phoenix member, will be there checking up on him, and run smackdab into Petunia...and both of them will be hit with what Sicilians call "The Thunderbolt," good and hard. The first Harry will know about it is when Dudders comes running in to Harry's room, screaming "Make them stop!" He tiptoes down the stairs, and sees Petunia and Snape in a frenzied embrace, clothes flying in every direction. This snaps his mind, and he starts hitting his head on the wall, in unison with Dudley..."I did not see that, I did not see that, it's hurting my mind!" And right at the height of things, in comes lovable Vernon, and by the time the smoke clears, Vernon and Petunia are splitsville, and Petunia is running off with Snape. Harry and Dudley are carted off for a relaxing course of Shock Spells at St. Mungo's. From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon May 30 00:16:23 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 00:16:23 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved - congrats Renee! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129707 > > tinglinger > ============= > If noone else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged events > that occurred there (in particular Lily's sacrifice which is so > vitally important to the plot), then JKR violated the Omnipotent > Observer rule of writing (i.e. a story must be verifiable in order > to have validity.) > > SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents > were murdered. > > As for who .... Valky: Before I speculate on who, I just have to ask for some clarificaton. Can someone quote the specific unvalidated canon that violates the omniescence rule? As far as I can recall, a lot of the knowledge we have of the GH events have come from Harry's faint recollection throughout the series, Voldemort himself, and Dumbledore wholly admitting that he is making careful speculation based on things he has observed, such as the scar, things that have happened with Harry and other various clues, all the while also factoring in what he knows about James and Lily. If there is a direction violation, then I've missed it. Good on JKR for that, if it turns out to be the key, however I always believed that the extra person at Godrics Hollow Theory was based on other factors not this, so can someone help me get on the same page as tinglinger etc In any case, I still believe there is a huge probability that the person is Snape. OTOH the Longbottoms (who suggested that? its a good one) could well be brought into this somehow. It makes sense to me. Maybe both Snape and the Longbottoms were connectively involved in the attack. Just thinking out loud Valky From tonks_op at yahoo.com Mon May 30 01:00:48 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:00:48 -0000 Subject: Predictions WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Book from Black's house/Good?Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > 5. The last chapter of the last book will be an epilogue,wherein we see that Harry and Ginny marry, have lots of babies and live happily ever after until his death. Upon his death the sentence will mention that "as they looked at him the family realized that there was no trace of a scar." > > (spoiler) > This is very similar to the ending of _The Little White Horse_, which is why I think that JKR will go this direction. Tonks: I have been listening to the tapes of the 5th book and heard one of Trelawney predictions. Now we have often mentioned here that her predictions aren't as off the wall as we are led to believe. And in the prediction she said that Harry will not die, will marry and have 12 children. Thinking about that and the fact that I pair him with Ginny (the new Adam and Eve) and Ginny is from a large family so it makes sense that she might be the mother of many children. Also the number 12 is like the 12 tribes of Israel or the 12 apostles. So it just might be that Harry does live, marries Ginny and has 12 children. Wouldn't that be a kicker, if all of the little *hints* that JKR has given us about Harry maybe not living past book 7 are just red herrings. Tonks_op From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon May 30 01:22:54 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:22:54 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved - congrats Renee! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129709 tinglinger ============= If no one else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged events that occurred there, then JKR violated the Omnipotent Observer rule of writing (i.e. a story must be verifiable in order to have validity.) SO........... what does all this tell me ? SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's parents were murdered. As for who .... bboyminn: ============ But I think their is a slight flaw in the reasoning in your thougths on the riddle and on the 'Omnipotent Observer'. First, isn't it the /omniscient/ observer; or the 'third person omniscient narrator'. 'Omnipotent' means all-powerful; 'omniscient' mean all-knowing. tinglinger -- I agree! Mea culpa should have said Omniscient Observer as you suggested. bboyminn ============== In the Riddle, there is one person who knows the entire story, and that person is the dead man. The riddle could be related to us by the all-knowing ethereal spirit of the dead man; as a man, he knows the dream, and as a ghost, he know the events outside himself. Therefore, he is able to relate the complete event to us. In this sense, the ghost of the man is quite capable of being the omniscient narrator. tinglinger ============= I would agree with your argument if the Riddle was a ghost story. There was no indication from the telling that it was, so it might be a bit of a reach to make that assumption. Btw, I believe that this Riddle originally appeared in the Reader's Digest many many years ago. bboyminn =========== As far as the events at Godric's Hollow, have you ever watched the TV show 'C.S.I.' (Crime Scene Investigation). It's their job to know what happened during a crime even when there are no witnesses to recount the events. The clues and evidence at the scene can lead them to very sound and reasonable conclusions. The question of how anyone could know what happened at Godrics Hollow come up before, I think at bare minimum, Dumbledore and the Order examined the crime scene and were able to reach certain logical, though perhaps not absolutely provable, conclusion. From the clues, they were able to reconstruct a reasonable account of the events. Of course, from the many discussions of this, the idea that someone else was there has grown stronger and stronger. I would say that it has grown to the point where it is generally accepted. The most likely candidate so far is Peter. However, if Peter was there, he would not likely have recounted the events to Dumbledore. There is some chance that, directly or indirectly, Peter may have recounted the events to Snape who in turn informed Dumbledore. tinglinger ============ Dumbledore and the Order could have figured out what happened but, unless there was a pensieve recording Lily's words when she made her sacrifice, how do we know what she did or whether Voldemort indeed said "You don't have to die!" I assume that CSI examines "physical" evidence that is uncovered at the scene. bboyminn =========== So, again, I'm not trying to be a spoil-sport. The answer to the riddle is the answer to the riddle. It's easy, after the fact, to come up with rationalized alternative scenarios. As a side note, I would like to point out that there is a huge difference between 'rational' and 'rationalize'. Don't know if it's worth anything, but there it is. tinglinger ============== I always look forward to the comments of any poster who presents a point of view rather than a guess. We can always agree or disagree on the interpretation of events. That's what makes these groups interesting and fun! tinglinger ================ who always likes a good discussion and glad that this one is moving along quite nicely... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots for more theories and friendly discussions From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Mon May 30 02:10:12 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 02:10:12 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved - congrats Renee! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129710 > tinglinger > ============ > Dumbledore and the Order could have figured out what happened > but, unless there was a pensieve recording Lily's words when > she made her sacrifice, how do we know what she did or > whether Voldemort indeed said "You don't have to die!" > I assume that CSI examines "physical" evidence that is > uncovered at the scene. > Because we get it from Harry's memories when he is confronted by the dementor boggart (p. 177 PoA Bloomsbury harcover). Harry was there, witnessed it, but was just too young to remember consciously. Apparently JKR uses the theory that everything we went through is somewhere in our brains and can be accessed at the right circumstances. It is also Harry's problem when practicing the Patronus charm. On the one hand he wants to defeat the Dementor/Boggart, on the other hand, he does hear his parents voices which, though it is still awfull to hear them dying, is also very precious to him. Gerry From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 30 02:27:20 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 02:27:20 -0000 Subject: Prediction about Snape in HBP. Was:Re: Admonishing Snape In-Reply-To: <42978D17.10252.18D932C@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129711 Lupinlore: Anyone else want to comment? I'm talking about things that will be a "BANG" in the sense of really revealing important things about Snape's character and causing lots of people to rethink things. What would you bet on? Alla: I would not be able to do much betting about Snape, but I am ready to take a chance and predict that Snape's feelings about Harry and Co will cause him to make a grave mistake in his dealings with Voldemort and seriously endanger the order. No, I don't think that he will be a "conscious" traitor, but his emotions will get out of control once again. Who knows, maybe Dumbledore will die because of that, although I usually tend to think that Dumbledore will survive the series. Alla, who is happy to be back, although not happy about going back to work. :-) From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Mon May 30 02:47:58 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 02:47:58 -0000 Subject: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129712 Steve > JKR, in my view, has not painted Draco as evil, but she has painted > him very much with the potential for evil. In the last book, JKR left > Draco standing on at a precipice, teetering on the edge. Up until now > Draco has been mean and nasty, but I still say it has all been in > 'schoolboy' catagory. Gerry Nasty absolutely. Schoolboy category? I don't agree. Could you explain to me why you see the Buckbeak incident as a schoolboy thing? For me this incident is so utterly evil. The casual disregard for life and other people's suffering Draco displays here are to me examples of him being really evil. Nothing schoolboy there. Steve > Up through the last book while JKR has confirmed that Draco is a mean > nasty lout, she has refrained from allowing Draco to act with truly > evil intent. Gerry But she has not refrained him from having true evil intent. In CoS he had intent but not the means, with Buckbeak it was his deliberately lying and not acting which almost caused a death (which as far as I'm concerned is the same as acting). He made is choices here. I'm really interested how you see this. Steve I think the general flow of the story could allow Draco > one truly dispicable act, and still have room for redemption. But we > are nearing the point where Draco will fall over the edge and commit > an act so terrible that he can never pull back from it, he can never > be redeemed. In a sense, it is this moral uncertainty that makes Draco > such an interesting and appealing character. Gerry I don't believe in irredeemable evil. I do believe that some persons will never be able to redeem themselves because of their character, but I truly don't believe in irredeemable evil actions. > Steve > Doesn't your mothering instinct give you the uncontrollable urge to > try and 'fix him'? Gerry Nope, not at all. Whereas for Snape it does. The difference being that Snape (if DD is right) has come back from the DE's and is trying to do the good thing now. For met this indicates there is a true moral core in him, no matter how nasty a person he is. With Snape, this gives me the hope he has the potential to see what he is doing to others if somebody took the time to help him with his own youth traumas. With Draco I don't get this feeling at all. > > -Strategic Alliances- Gerry: Loved it. From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon May 30 03:10:27 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 03:10:27 -0000 Subject: Draco's Role (was: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129713 >>Pippin: >JKR's interest runs counter to ours. She wants to hype the dramatic tension, we are trying to resolve it. Suppose she wants to have Draco be redeemed, is it not obvious that he has to do something seriously evil first? Slaughter the youngl-I mean, ickle Firsties, or blow up a planet or something? >The main obstacle I see to redeemed!Draco is that he hasn't done anything evil enough to make it dramatic.< Betsy: Exactly. Which is why I have a strong suspicion that Draco is being set up to be the "Good Slytherin". Because Draco doesn't need to be redeemed (not in the most dramatic sense of the word) but Harry's *view* of him does. The Slytherin JKR (via the Sorting Hat) has told us Harry needs should not be an anti-Slytherin or the Slytherin weirdo, he (or she) *must* be as much a Slytherin as Harry is a Gryffindor. Sure JKR could pull some never before seen Slytherin out of the nameless masses of that house to stand by Harry's side. But Harry (and the readers) would always see that particular Slytherin as the exeception to the Slytherin rule. And that would totally destroy the entire point being made by the Hat. It said that *all* the Houses must unite, not that Slytherin needed to get its act together. I don't expect Draco to suddenly take a much larger role than he has in any of the other books. Actually, I think JKR could keep him in the same role he's always filled: the giver of information. Though I *would* expect Draco to share his information consciously, and for Harry to recognize what Draco is doing. >>Pippin: >I think a lot of the impetus behind Fanon!Draco is actually Fanon! Harry. Canon!Harry is a tough, scrappy kid who's more than a bit of a scamp -- he doesn't need a lovable scoundrel for a sidekick, there isn't enough contrast. But there's a tendency in fandom to see Harry as a lot more vulnerable and innocent than JKR portrays him. That leaves the lovable scoundrel role open, and Fanon!Draco was created to fill it.< Betsy: Oh, Fanon!Draco is a whole 'nother beast, and not one I'm touching. Canon!Draco gives us enough fodder for conversation, I think. Betsy From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 30 03:46:28 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 03:46:28 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129714 Nora wrote: Lots of fans pick up on not liking Draco just from the text; JKR is instead really rather confused/amused by those who *don't* get it (who are, in the wide scheme of Potter fans, certainly a minority-- just a more vocal one on parts of the Internet as like-minded fans group together), which relates to a point below. I don't think she's yanking our chain, although I could be wrong. There are several *excellent* possible test cases this book. Draco is one; Snape is another; ESE!Lupin is yet another. So I ask you all again to submit your betting pools to me, and I'll tally things up and see who's right and who's not, even if it takes until book 7. Alla: First of all - excellent post, Nora. SO well done. :-) I am one of those who absolutely do not need interviews to judge Draco as nasty person. Although I do consider interviews as strong additional evidence. To me it is not only what Draco does, but what he says,since I think that ideological values of the characters are very important in "potterverse" and reveal a lot about what kind of people the characters really are. Therefore, Harry's POV for example to me has nothing to do with how I view Draco, because no matter through which character I will look at Draco, I will still hear about "mudbloods who will die first"( paraphrase of course) Yes, so back to the betting pool - I predict Draco joining DE and getting killed but not by Harry or any of the Gryffs, but in a really stupid, absolutely non-heroic way. If I only saw a tiny sign in the books, ONE hint that Draco could be redeemed I would predict differently, since teenager indeed can change ( not always though), but to me it seems that change is NOT what JKR has in mind for this character. Hasn't she said that the worst is coming for dear Draco? So, please sign me up for Dead and Evil Draco. :-) Just my opinion, Alla From tinglinger at yahoo.com Mon May 30 04:55:27 2005 From: tinglinger at yahoo.com (tinglinger) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 04:55:27 -0000 Subject: You had me going there, festuco, but there is this little problem... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129715 tinglinger ============ Dumbledore and the Order could have figured out what happened but, unless there was a pensieve recording Lily's words when she made her sacrifice, how do we know what she did or whether Voldemort indeed said "You don't have to die!" I assume that CSI examines "physical" evidence that is uncovered at the scene. festuco ====================== Because we get it from Harry's memories when he is confronted by the dementor boggart (p. 177 PoA Bloomsbury harcover). Harry was there, witnessed it, but was just too young to remember consciously. Apparently JKR uses the theory that everything we went through is somewhere in our brains and can be accessed at the right circumstances. It is also Harry's problem when practicing the Patronus charm. On the one hand he wants to defeat the Dementor/Boggart, on the other hand, he does hear his parents voices which, though it is still awful to hear them dying, is also very precious to him. tinglinger ============== Wow..... at first I thought to myself (revealed herein for the first time lest you argue that I know not what I thought...lol) how could I have been so lame? Clearly Harry recalled the events of Godric's Hollow when they were dredged up in the course of the dementors at the Quidditch game with Hufflepuff (POA-Ch 9-Grim Defeat) and also when working on the Patronus charm with Lupin (POA- Ch 12-The Patronus). But something still bothered me...... And then it clicked ..... Dumbledore had Hagrid deliver baby Harry to the Dursleys at Privet Drive the very next day SPECIFICALLY TO GIVE HARRY THE PROTECTION MADE POSSIBLE BY LILY'S SACRIFICE (OOP-CH 37-THE LOST PROPHECY). So.... unless Harry told the whole story to Hagrid before falling asleep over Bristol, how did Dumbledore know that Lily had sacrificed her life to save Harry without someone else being there to tell him that a sacrifice indeed happened? Somehow I don't think that Dumbledore would have left him with the Dursleys without benefit of the protection (Hell, he wouldn't have lasted five MINUTES with those muggles without it ...........) tinglinger who was nearly Gilderoyed by my own riddle - so many theories so little time till HBP is released to check them out at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon May 30 05:26:46 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 05:26:46 -0000 Subject: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "festuco" wrote: > Steve > > JKR, in my view, has not painted Draco as evil, but she has > > painted him very much with the potential for evil. ... Draco > > standing on at a precipice, ... Draco has been mean and nasty, > > but I still say it has all been in 'schoolboy' catagory. > > Gerry > Nasty absolutely. Schoolboy category? I don't agree. Could you > explain to me why you see the Buckbeak incident as a schoolboy > thing? > bboyminn: First, Draco has been indoctrinated his whole life to believe in inferior and superior beings. To him, Buckbeak is not a superior being, he is a beast. He is no different than a cow, pig, horse, or dog, and our society kills these animals all the time. If his actions had been against a fully sentient being like a Centaur, then I would agree with you. So, his effort against Buckbeak are not evil, the are mean and nasty, but not evil. Beside, Buckbeak will not be killed by Draco hand, not directly. Buckbeak will be killed by rule of law and a duly appointed executioner. > Steve > > ... JKR ... has refrained from allowing Draco to act with truly > > evil intent. > Gerry > But she has not refrained him from having true evil intent. In CoS > he had intent but not the means, with Buckbeak it was his > deliberately lying and not acting which almost caused a death. He > made is choices here. > > I'm really interested how you see this. > bboyminn: Notice that not only weren't Harry, Ron, and Hermione called to give testimony whether oral or written, neither was Draco. It was Draco's father that appeared at the hearing and spoke on Draco's behalf. Certainly, it was Lucius who took the opportunity to act against Dumbledore and Hagrid more than anything that sets this all into motion. Now, I don't deny that Draco took a great glee in the whole process, but since he was removed from it, he was more of a bystander, and could easily absolve himself of responsibility by leaving everything to his father and to the court. I'm not saying I absolve him, just that the process allowed him to absolve himself in the sense that in his own mind he could claim a clear conscience. Again, as horrible as it was, I personally don't think the Buckbeak incident crossed the line into evil, but it very much showed the future potential for true evil. > >Steve > > I think the general flow of the story could allow Draco one truly > > dispicable act, and still have room for redemption. But ... Draco > > will fall over the edge and commit an act so terrible that he can > > never pull back from it, ... > > Gerry > I don't believe in irredeemable evil. I do believe that some persons > will never be able to redeem themselves because of their character, > but I truly don't believe in irredeemable evil actions. > bboyminn: On this we agree, the potential for redemption is always there but frequently the likelihood is completely gone. When Tom Riddle murdered his parents, he made a life choice, he defined himself in a away that crossed a line that I'm sure we can safely say he will never cross back over. Given his total lack of regret, and that he doesn't seem remotely sorry for his action. Nor does he display any indication that he has intent or capacity to be sorry for that action. So, I can safely say that Voldemort will never be redeemed even while acknowledging that the theoretical potential for redemption still exists. Draco is still in a postion to be able to understand the dark nature of his actions, to regret them, and to choose a new path in life. But, much like Tom Riddle, there is a line that he will likely cross beyond which he will never find his way back. Many people are capable of redemption, but very few who cross the line into gleefull and enthusiastic evil ever come back. Mostly because they are quite deranged and irrational. In my statement, I did allow room for Draco's redemption. I allowed that it's still possible for him to commit one semi-evil act and in that act to truly realize the horror of what he has done. From there he can come back. But there is a level of truly dark, heartless and evil action beyond which he can but never will return. Further, people have the idea that if Draco is redeemed, he will suddenly be skipping through the flowers singing 'Spoonfull of Sugar' from 'Mary Poppins'. No... No... Much like Snape, if and when Draco becomes good, that doesn't in any way mean he will become nice. Just thinking out loud. Steve/bboyminn From juli17 at aol.com Mon May 30 06:02:51 2005 From: juli17 at aol.com (juli17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 02:02:51 EDT Subject: Bad Slytherins/ Good Slytherins Message-ID: <60.568832fa.2fcc068b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129717 > Neil: > I think one reason why people don't see the evil of Draco is that it > is not related to huge, clear-cut incidents. We see it in some > actions, parts of conversations. You have to pay attention, but for > me JKR did an excellent job in convincing me Draco is not nice. > > imamommy: > What clinches it for me is Draco's attitude in CoS. He openly > says "You'll be next, Mudbloods" and to his cronies he expresses the > desire that Hermione will be killed. That's pretty extreme for a 12 > year old. Julie: Agreed, and you bring up a point about Draco that may explain part of the sympathy some feel toward him, as well as why some hope he can still be redeemed. That point is that he is a child. Well, he is now a teenager, but he's still not fully grown. I think many of us harbor the belief that troubled children, even *bad* children, can be turned around with enough effort and understanding. At least we want to believe that if we give troubled children enough love and compassion, if we counsel them and teach them better ways to cope and to relate to others, then their lives can be salvaged before they reach a point of no return. Granted Draco and his ilk receive no such treatment at Hogwarts (which is another somewhat troubling subject entirely), but I think until he actually does something irredeemably evil, or until he reaches majority age with no perceptible change in attitude, there will probably be many (myself included) who aren't willing to write him off entirely. So I won't call Draco "evil" just yet, though he is certainly headed straight in that direction. (And my own prediction is that JKR probably will not alter that direction.) Julie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From finwitch at yahoo.com Mon May 30 06:58:37 2005 From: finwitch at yahoo.com (finwitch) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:58:37 -0000 Subject: You had me going there, festuco, but there is this little problem... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129718 > tinglinger > ============== --snip-- > > Dumbledore had Hagrid deliver baby Harry to the Dursleys > at Privet Drive the very next day > SPECIFICALLY TO GIVE HARRY THE PROTECTION MADE POSSIBLE BY > LILY'S SACRIFICE (OOP-CH 37-THE LOST PROPHECY). > > So.... unless Harry told the whole story to Hagrid before > falling asleep over Bristol, how did Dumbledore know that > Lily had sacrificed her life to save Harry ... Finwitch: How does Dumbledore know? How has he always appeared to know everything? I thought OOP gave us the answer: Legilimency. Since Dementors can drag the memory from Harry years after, when Harry - due to being so young - has forgotten all but green light - and a laughter brought up when Hagrid told him the truth - why couldn't Dumbledore do a quick Legilimency on Harry to confirm how things were? Of course, if it wasn't what he thought, he would have taken care of Harry himself or something... Hmm-mm. Think of this: 'The twinkling light that usually shone from Dumbledore's eyes seemed to be gone out.' (PS end of the Boy Who Lived, page 17 in my book). and this, as far as I remember, is the ONLY time Dumbledore's eyes don't *twinkle*. Now that we know about Legilimency/Occlumency, (and how JKR uses the word *seem* in the books, well...) if that twinkle is Dumbledore's Occlumency-shield, it was gone because he had let it down in order to do Legilimency on Harry -- OR Harry's infant, uncontrolled magic had just rejected Dumbledore's Legilimency with similar mirror-effect we saw when Snape was giving Harry Occlumency-lessons (leaving Dumbledore a bit defenceless for that brief moment). Finwitch From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Mon May 30 07:10:18 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 07:10:18 -0000 Subject: Let me be the first - News from JKR Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129719 Jo has updated her site with a couple of official comments about happenings in Fandom. The Latest Headline News - As Publication Draws Nearer We are given some shrewd advice about dealing with some of the frenzy that is starting to stir with July moving ever closer. About the HBP tipping Rumour, we are urged to stock up on salt in preparation for more of this kind of thing than we can ordinarily handle. No answer is given as to whether the rumour is true though so far as I have seen. Also Jo has confirmed that she won't be and hasn't been posting to fansites :( Understandably so, and wise in the circumstances. Valky From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 30 08:01:35 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:01:35 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Alla: > First of all - excellent post, Nora. SO well done. :-) > > I am one of those who absolutely do not need interviews to judge > Draco as nasty person. Although I do consider interviews as strong > additional evidence. To me it is not only what Draco does, but what > he says,since I think that ideological values of the characters are > very important in "potterverse" and reveal a lot about what kind of > people the characters really are. > > Therefore, Harry's POV for example to me has nothing to do with how > I view Draco, because no matter through which character I will look > at Draco, I will still hear about "mudbloods who will die first"( > paraphrase of course) Geoff: Bear in mind though that when Draco said this, he was 12. I know from my own personal experience and that of dealing with guys of that age over many years that young gentlemen of 12 can be very bloodthirsty in their thinking; and they don't always think through the consequences of what carrying out their fantasies would mean. Just look at the exchange of insults and ribaldry that takes place in the rivalry over football teams just as one example...... From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Mon May 30 00:31:08 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:31:08 -0400 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429A5ECC.5030104@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129722 I'm going to toss my two knuts worth in here. I have been listening to GoF in the car and my attention was drawn to the wood, where HRH come across Malfoy. While he is certainly snotty toward them, he *does* help them in a very important way, and in a way that feels deliberate to me. I don't think Harry or even Ron realizes that Hermione would be in danger from the mob. Malfoy uses ugly language in informing them, but it is clearly a warning. Not exactly what I'd expect from someone who actually wants to see it happen. To follow on with what others have put forth, I do see that much of his behavior is childish schoolboy taunting and bullying. He tries to get Harry in trouble, baits Ron and insults Hermione. I see much of that as a response to being humiliated by Harry in front of Ron. Malfoy sees Harry as someone with *status* (based on his notoriety) and we already know he thinks Ron is lower than the gunk on the bottom of his shoe. Harry sides with Ron, and Malfoy is angry and embarrassed. In public. When Malfoy and his "bookends" (thank you SO much to whomever gets credit for that hysterical description of Crabbe and Goyle!) jump Harry at the end of OotP, Harry has actually *done wrong* to Malfoy. He has participated in events that sent his father to prison, and opened him up to ridicule or at least loss of social standing. Here's a kid who looks up to his father, and appears to emulate him, or at least idolize him. His nemesis was instrumental in sending him off to the pokey. He sees a chance to attempt to attack the *cause* of his latest humiliation (well, we all know that Lucius is responsible, but child who worships father won't see it that way) and takes it. Does that make him irredemably evil? Or just human? Not to mention young and impulsive. (yes, he's spoiled and used to having things his way, too) I think if we recast these characters as being from the US South in the 50's, we'd see this in a similar way as white/black relations were. Ron thinks black kids are ok; Harry has never given it any thought (I won't present him as of mixed race since he would not then be a socially desirable contact for Malfoy), and Hermione (for the purpose of this analogy) is either black or of mixed parentage. Having lived in the South myself, I can say that these attitudes still exist, and that those who hold them (the prejudice against blacks, that is) consider it normal and acceptable. They do not consider that they are being ugly or bullying. They are simply stating the truth as they have been taught it. Historically, some did participate in lynchings, but most did not. That didn't mean they thought white kids and black kids should play together, though. Now, do I think Jo's going to redeem him? I honestly don't know. But I do think there's wiggle room, despite his Inquisitorial Squad participation. He is a Slytherin, after all, ambitious and all. He saw DD driven from the school (a DD his father has taught him is the worst thing ever to happen to the school) and Umbridge now in a position of power. He likes the way things have developed and takes the opportunity to throw his lot in with the new regime. He has no idea she's been torturing students, probably is glad Harry, Fred and George were banned from Quidditch (they did beat the snot out of him, not to mention that their departure increases the odds of his house winning the cup - very Slytherin, yes?) and is thrilled that she somehow got rid of DD. I suspect he has no real idea of what being a DE would entail. I concur with the idea that he won't like groveling to LV; he wants others to grovel to him. And a 12 year old wishing someone dead is a lot different from a 17 year old killing someone outright. Cheers all, and please let me know if you think any of this holds water! Michelle From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Mon May 30 00:40:20 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 20:40:20 -0400 Subject: Patronus/Animagus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429A60F4.8090802@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129723 Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) wrote: > I don't THINK we know from JKR that patronus and animagus form are the > same, altho' I agree that JKR would make Hermione's animagus form be > an otter. But I think Hermione would need to develop more of a sense > of humor before she would be able to turn into an otter. (I checked > Quick Quotes Quill and didn't find anything about patronus vs > animagus.) Here is the basis of my previous question: Harry's Patronus is a stag. His father was a stag as an animagus. I read that as the essence of his father protecting him from harm, indeed, protecting his very soul. That made perfect sense to me. It does *not* make sense to me, however, that Harry's animagus form would be the same as his father's. There is no mention (that I recall) of any hereditary nature in animagus skill. Anyone care to support/refute my reasoning, such as it is? Michelle From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Mon May 30 02:55:14 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Sun, 29 May 2005 22:55:14 -0400 Subject: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429A8092.8020700@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129724 > Steve: > > JKR, in my view, has not painted Draco as evil, but she has painted > > him very much with the potential for evil. In the last book, JKR left > > Draco standing on at a precipice, teetering on the edge. Up until now > > Draco has been mean and nasty, but I still say it has all been in > > 'schoolboy' catagory. > Gerry: > Nasty absolutely. Schoolboy category? I don't agree. Could you explain > to me why you see the Buckbeak incident as a schoolboy thing? For me > this incident is so utterly evil. The casual disregard for life and > other people's suffering Draco displays here are to me examples of him > being really evil. Nothing schoolboy there. Just a passing thought here... I get the impression that Malfoy regards Buckbeak along the lines of a dog. No respect for him as any sort of even semi-sentient being. Just a "pet" of Hagrid's. So although his desire to see him executed is certainly malicious, I don't see it as homicidal. Evil, yes, in the sense that killing someone's beloved pet is evil, yet not in the same plane as killing a person. Yes, he's still a nasty bit of work, but not *yet* ESE. Michelle, my third post of the night, whenever the mods let me play.... From fiscused at yahoo.com Mon May 30 01:42:42 2005 From: fiscused at yahoo.com (fiscused) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 01:42:42 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Neville and Ginny (was: Harry and Ginny Weasley) In-Reply-To: <13f.144fd32d.2fcb9323@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129725 Neil: > Besides, I'd sort of like to see Ginny get together with Neville. > I think he has liked her since the Yule Ball. He also tried to > come to her aid in OotP when the I.S. had her. There's very little evidence to determine Neville's feelings, so you could be right. But I'm dissuaded from that line of thinking by the remembrance that Ginny wasn't Neville's first choice for a date, and they apparently didn't end the night together. Also, he may have aided any member of the DA just the same. But I certainly love Neville. Does he have an big important role in the future or is he just a bit player? That's the biggest question I ask myself. Nev From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Mon May 30 09:28:48 2005 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:28:48 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: > snipsnip > > Therefore, Harry's POV for example to me has nothing to do with > how > > I view Draco, because no matter through which character I will > look > > at Draco, I will still hear about "mudbloods who will die first"( > > paraphrase of course) > > Geoff: > Bear in mind though that when Draco said this, he was 12. > > I know from my own personal experience and that of dealing with guys > of that age over many years that young gentlemen of 12 can be very > bloodthirsty in their thinking; and they don't always think through > the consequences of what carrying out their fantasies would mean. > > Just look at the exchange of insults and ribaldry that takes place > in the rivalry over football teams just as one example...... AmanitaMuscaria now: I've just been reading this thread with great interest. A couple of points occur to me: The Marauders, although not attacking 'Mudbloods', appear to have the same general attitude towards 'The Dark Side'. Now, because it's the 'Dark Side', we find that acceptable, but this produces the Slytherin = evil attitude that the Sorting Hat is arguing against. The second thing is combining two things that have been said by JKR - (and I paraphrase) firstly, that Draco will come to a sticky end, secondly, Dumbledore says that death is not the worst that can happen. What do you suppose Draco would feel if he were responsible in some key and very public way for Voldemort's downfall? Especially if his parents were alive and able to tell him exactly what they thought of him? I suspect that would be much worse for someone who very much needs approval. Much as Geoff says, we all say things when we're young, some of us do things when we're young, that we wouldn't think of doing with a bit more wisdom. Lily married James, after all, not that long after the Snape incidents, and I don't believe there was any coercion in the marriage. Cheers, in anticipation. AmanitaMuscaria From saraandra at saraandra.plus.com Mon May 30 12:17:48 2005 From: saraandra at saraandra.plus.com (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 12:17:48 -0000 Subject: HBP/Harry/Sirius/Snape/Patronus/Sn./Neville/Sn./Doge/C.Drac./Kreachur/abusedH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: snippin' lots > "njelliot2003" predicted in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/129569 : > > << the first Fat Lady password Harry hears is "Caput Draconis" (pg. > 96). >> > > Caput Draconis means 'head of dragon'. I think it is the name of > something astrological, like some point in the Moon's orbit. I have a > gut feeling that it is related somehow to another password: "Pig's > snout". Because Pig and Dragon are both animals, and the snout is part > of the head. But I can't figure out that such a relationship would > mean anything for the plot. AmanitaMuscaria now - I seem to remember from a long-ago hazy time spent in Herefordshire, the West Country, and Norfolk/Suffolk, that pig's snout was a drink. Draconis is also defined as 'snake', and, of course, snakebite is a lethal combination of cider and gin. (Cider as in the alcoholic Brit variety) The only reason this links to me is that JKR spent her teens in Chepstow, right on the border of cider-making country. Chin-chin. AmanitaMuscaria From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon May 30 13:31:30 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:31:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: You had me going there, festuco, but there is this little problem... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003101c5651b$e4525310$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 129728 > tinglinger > ============== --snip-- > > Dumbledore had Hagrid deliver baby Harry to the Dursleys > at Privet Drive the very next day > SPECIFICALLY TO GIVE HARRY THE PROTECTION MADE POSSIBLE BY > LILY'S SACRIFICE (OOP-CH 37-THE LOST PROPHECY). > > So.... unless Harry told the whole story to Hagrid before > falling asleep over Bristol, how did Dumbledore know that > Lily had sacrificed her life to save Harry ... Finwitch: How does Dumbledore know? How has he always appeared to know everything? I thought OOP gave us the answer: Legilimency. Since Dementors can drag the memory from Harry years after, when Harry - due to being so young - has forgotten all but green light - and a laughter brought up when Hagrid told him the truth - why couldn't Dumbledore do a quick Legilimency on Harry to confirm how things were? Of course, if it wasn't what he thought, he would have taken care of Harry himself or something... Sherry now: Maybe, I purposely don't delve as deeply into trying to figure out the mysteries in the series, because I love how JKR surprises us--and besides, I don't want to figure out the bad stuff in advance!--But I always sort of thought Dumbledore knew, because he knew about Lily's charm and the ancient magic and the blood protection. I'm sure he helped James and Lily plan the whole thing. He's old and wise and powerful, and I would think he'd be the one who'd know of this ancient magic and help the Potters prepare for it. And legilimency can come into that too, because he could have used it on baby Harry to determine if the plan went as expected, the sequence of events. He would have had to be sure that lily did succeed. Sherry From sherriola at earthlink.net Mon May 30 13:45:27 2005 From: sherriola at earthlink.net (Sherry Gomes) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 06:45:27 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: <429A8092.8020700@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003201c5651d$d71b8890$0400a8c0@pensive> No: HPFGUIDX 129729 > Steve: > > JKR, in my view, has not painted Draco as evil, but she has painted > > him very much with the potential for evil. In the last book, JKR left > > Draco standing on at a precipice, teetering on the edge. Up until now > > Draco has been mean and nasty, but I still say it has all been in > > 'schoolboy' catagory. > Gerry: > Nasty absolutely. Schoolboy category? I don't agree. Could you explain > to me why you see the Buckbeak incident as a schoolboy thing? For me > this incident is so utterly evil. The casual disregard for life and > other people's suffering Draco displays here are to me examples of him > being really evil. Nothing schoolboy there. Just a passing thought here... I get the impression that Malfoy regards Buckbeak along the lines of a dog. No respect for him as any sort of even semi-sentient being. Just a "pet" of Hagrid's. So although his desire to see him executed is certainly malicious, I don't see it as homicidal. Evil, yes, in the sense that killing someone's beloved pet is evil, yet not in the same plane as killing a person. Yes, he's still a nasty bit of work, but not *yet* ESE. Michelle, my third post of the night, whenever the mods let me play.... Sherry now: i've probably posted enough comments here that people know I have a soft spot for animals. I consider maliciousness and cruelty to animal a terrible crime. However, for me, the true nasty evil in the Buckbeak incident is Draco's desire to hurt Hagrid. He revels in Hagrid's pain and grief and makes fun of him over it. maybe that's not evil in comparison to Voldemort and death eaters, but it is something cruel and vicious beyond school boy pranks to me. And yes, I know, the pensive scene with the marauders and Snape is equally nasty and the Marauders turn out to be the good guys. So, perhaps it could happen to Draco. But I see Hagrid as someone who is innocent and naive and can't imagine how anyone could want to hurt such a gentle being. If we are ever shown more information about the pensive scene, of which I don't think we've been given all the details, maybe we will see there was something more to it, or we will see that the marauders were a bunch of prats as school boys. Then I'll have more hope for Draco's eventual redemption. Now I only see a boy who takes great delight in causing harm, even if it is only emotional harm, to someone he perceives as beneath him. I don't hold out a lot of hope for such a boy. Sherry From hubbada at unisa.ac.za Mon May 30 13:42:11 2005 From: hubbada at unisa.ac.za (deborahhbbrd) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 13:42:11 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129730 I'd like to make a couple of points about the ethics, slavery etc discussions: and I'm a frustrated would-be snipper because my computer is playing silly games ? presumably at the instigation of a House Elf who doesn't want the world to know the truth But A Svirn said that slaves have no ethics: since they are deprived of justice in their entire lives, they must therefore also be devoid of (a sense of) justice. But we are not living in slave-owning societies, so how would we know? Enter the ancient Greeks and Romans ? fanfare ? and their dramatic expressions of current thinking. Slave-owning societies, they were. (Bows to Yoda.) And their comedies were remarkably similar to modern TV sitcoms in many ways, not least their use of stock characters: the Grumpy Old Man, the Bigmouthed Boaster, the Dishy Babe, the Manipulative but Lovable Slave who is the point, of course! This person is, typically, playing his owner's game in the hopes of furthering his own agenda, which is liberty. The slave, denied happiness and the choice of a wife, often helps the Grumpy Old Man's Misunderstood Son to get together with the Dishy Babe (who is sometimes a slave herself, but is always discovered to have been free-born after all, so they can marry). He responds imaginatively to a fellow human in distress, and tries to improve the Young Master's unhappy lot. (He is not the kind of slave who gets abused, decapitated etc ? his owners are fair and good, as owners go; but he pines for freedom and wants the Young Master to enjoy it.) And when the happy ending comes about, through the slave's creative ingenuity, he is asked what he would like as a reward. And is given it. His freedom, of course. Here we have a powerful story line, which a slave state found convincing. Slaves can be creative; slaves can be loyal and affectionate; slaves can play both ends against the middle for the sake of truth and justice; and slaves can see the big picture when their owners often stare themselves blind against rather nugatory considerations. And there is no compulsion, certainly no thought control, nothing but mutual respect and affection. It is bizarre, but it is a brilliantly useful plot device. Now, the interesting bit was I think also part of this lost thread once more, I do apologise! There was a remark that Dobby is not a slave but a servant who (a) chooses to serve and (b) gets paid for his work. I haven't got my books here so I'm not even sure what is and isn't canon. Do the House Elves get paid? Dobby at Hogwarts, yes. But Dobby at Malfoy Manor? Winky and Kreacher, anywhere? Can we imagine Kreacher with a vault at Gringott's? And yet Molly Weasley would love a House Elf but has never been able to afford one. Possibly, and it's a big jump, the money goes, not to the Elves themselves but into a fund administered by the MfM and withdrawable, perhaps, as retirement benefits to such Elves as survive long enough or, less gloomily, perhaps there is a statutory retirement age beyond which they may not work, but which would still enable them to live modestly, together, and have lots of little House Elflets who would then perpetuate the cycle. Molly could have an Elf if she had the money. Where would her Elf come from? Perhaps one could advertise: "Large family, respectable, pureblood, seeks House Elf for basic domestic duties including Garden Gnome removal. Two weeks' leave a year and every second weekend off." Or there might be employment agencies. However, an Elf like Kreacher would certainly put the interests of his owners above his own, and would ignore the government and all its works with scorn. Happy in his abusive relationship with Ma Black, he would and clearly does work for nothing into advanced old age; freedom would be an insult to him. But this is a matter of plot utility and personal pecularity, not necessarily of slave status. Deborah, secure in her reasoning but insecure in her inability to control her computer From k.coble at comcast.net Mon May 30 13:37:06 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 08:37:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does JKR want us to hate Draco? In-Reply-To: <429A5ECC.5030104@yahoo.com> References: <429A5ECC.5030104@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <93aaf9debe2de391f20246d9870f06a3@comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129731 On May 29, 2005, at 7:31 PM, Michelle Crowe wrote: > I'm going to toss my two knuts worth in here. I have been listening to > GoF in the car and my attention was drawn to the wood, where HRH come > across Malfoy. While he is certainly snotty toward them, he *does* > help > them in a very important way, and in a way that feels deliberate to > me. > I don't think Harry or even Ron realizes that Hermione would be in > danger from the mob. Malfoy uses ugly language in informing them, but > it > is clearly a warning. K: ?????? I think it is clearly a _threat_, not a warning. I think the author put it there for 2 reasons; exposition and character. I think she meant to show that Malfoy is proud of what was going on and very eager to brag that while HRH are running scared and confused, he, the great Malfoy, knows exactly what is going on. I'm sorry. I don't see any graciousness here at all. > > I think if we recast these characters as being from the US South in > the > 50's, we'd see this in a similar way as white/black relations were. > > Having lived in the > South myself, I can say that these attitudes still exist, and that > those > who hold them (the prejudice against blacks, that is) consider it > normal > and acceptable. K: I still live in the US South. I have done so for my entire adult life. Prior to that I lived in the North. Please, let's knock of the reflexive "the South is a backward place" prejudice by just admitting that racists exist all over the United States and are not particularly limited to one nebulously defined geographical area. Also, race relations were terrible all over the country in the 1950s. The South tended to be open about it (think white v. colored water fountains), whereas in the states without Jim Crow laws there was just an understanding. My father was in school in Philadelphia in the late 50s and early 60s. He has always claimed that he saw more racism there than he did on trips to Little Rock, AK. Speaking of which, I've always thought that the entire OotP, with the Ministry involvement in Hogwarts, was sort of a bizarre comparative to Central High in some ways, with Umbridge being Governor Faubus. > They do not consider that they are being ugly or > bullying. They are simply stating the truth as they have been taught > it. > Historically, some did participate in lynchings, but most did not. > That > didn't mean they thought white kids and black kids should play > together, > though. K: Yeah, that's true. Then there are the people who are members of the KKK. They gather in secret, wear hoods to taunt the black people, burn religious marks in front of their houses and occasionally KILL them. They taunt them using a foul name that belittles their parentage and torture them. Who does this sound like? DE & KKK: A handy chart... Uniform 1. KKK--Hoods ; DE--Hooded Cloaks Organizational symbol tattooed on members 2. KKK--The bloody cross (example here http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/groups_kkk.asp); DE-The serpant-tongued death's head (Dark Mark) Recognizable Terror Mark 3. KKK--Burning cross in front yard; DE--Sparkling Dark Mark in sky over house Foul Name for enemies 4. KKK--I won't repeat them, but blacks get the "N" word, Jews get the "K" word, etc; DE--mudblood Execution of persecuted groups 5. KKK--lynching; DE--Avada Kevadra I think young Draco is more in spirit as a Jr. Klucker, not some genteel Vandy divinity grad who thinks that "perhaps it's best if the coloreds keep to themselves." > Now, do I think Jo's going to redeem him? I honestly don't know. But I > do think there's wiggle room, despite his Inquisitorial Squad > participation. K: Okay. Question for all of the people out there who think that Draco can still be redeemed. What is _your_ tipping point? At what point do you think Draco will have crossed the line into full tilt boogie? I'm honestly curious. MY tipping point was long about book one in the Great Hall where he disses Ron. (full disclosure: I'm a big Ron fan.) What act of evil will it take? Someone mentioned killing the younglings yesterday (which cracked me up....). Seriously, what is it? Will he have to kill a passel of halfbloods and parade about the Great Hall in a Buffalo Bill suit of their skins? > And a 12 year old wishing someone dead is a lot different > from a 17 year old killing someone outright. > K: His age does not absolve him. Plenty of 12 year olds kill people. I know from personal experience. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 30 14:29:04 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 14:29:04 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129732 Alla earlier: Therefore, Harry's POV for example to me has nothing to do with how I view Draco, because no matter through which character I will look at Draco, I will still hear about "mudbloods who will die first"( paraphrase of course) Geoff: Bear in mind though that when Draco said this, he was 12. I know from my own personal experience and that of dealing with guys of that age over many years that young gentlemen of 12 can be very bloodthirsty in their thinking; and they don't always think through the consequences of what carrying out their fantasies would mean. Just look at the exchange of insults and ribaldry that takes placein the rivalry over football teams just as one example...... Alla: Oh, Geoff, as you probably remember I nod in agreement at at least 90% of what you write :-) I finally found the topic where I disagree with you. :-) It is NOT that I don't think that the character of Draco's age canot change his views. Of course they can ( James, Sirius, Snape are examples IMO) It is that IMO JKR completely gave up on his redemption and therefore painted him as really bad child. yes, Draco said that wehn he was 12, but can you show to me something which he said, which can show to us, reveal to us, that he has something good in him , anything at all, besides I guess that he loves his mother and fother, because plenty of otherwise bad people love their parents? I agree with the poster who considers Draco's words in GoF as big threat, not a warning. I think it is a big stretch to read it as warning, but it is just my opinion. I want to see some hints from JKR that Draco is not bad, oh maybe right now I don't really care, since I already dislike him passionately, but if I were to believe that he is about to change, i wanted to. How about a love interest in the other house for example or one sentence in his conversation with classmates showing that he starts to question "pureblood" ideology? Right now I don't see it at all. Anyways, JMO. Alla. From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Mon May 30 15:25:56 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 15:25:56 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? In-Reply-To: <93aaf9debe2de391f20246d9870f06a3@comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: (snipped) > K: Okay. Question for all of the people out there who think that > Draco can still be redeemed. What is _your_ tipping point? At what point do you think Draco will have crossed the line into full tilt boogie? > > I'm honestly curious. MY tipping point was long about book one in the Great Hall where he disses Ron. (full disclosure: I'm a big Ron fan.) > > What act of evil will it take? Someone mentioned killing the > younglings yesterday (which cracked me up....). Seriously, what is it? Will he have to kill a passel of halfbloods and parade about the Great Hall in a Buffalo Bill suit of their skins? Dungrollin: Are you saying that (for example) murderers can never under any circumstances feel remorse for their crimes, and see that their behaviour was wrong? That despite spending the rest of their days in prison, not one single one of them could ever fervently wish that they could have their time again and *not* pull the trigger? I see Voldemort as beyond redemption because he *can't* change, he *can't* feel sorry for what he's done because he *can't* see that it was wrong. He's never loved anyone or anything in his life because he *can't*. Everyone else's redemption is up for grabs, as far as I'm concerned. So, to my mind, asking "What will it take for you to condemn Draco utterly" is a non-question. I don't think anyone should be condemned utterly, and never given another chance to see if they can do better. Voldemort's only an exception for me because JKR says he is. Dungrollin From ellydan at yahoo.com Mon May 30 16:03:40 2005 From: ellydan at yahoo.com (Melete) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 09:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Annoyed with Harry In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050530160340.40190.qmail@web54601.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129734 > Magda: > - He doesn't appreciate his friends enough. > - ...it's amazing how clueless he can be about the > big picture. > > Kemper: > I think Magda points out Harry's character flaws > well. To sum her > points: He's generally inconsiderate and self > involved. > > Bookworm: > Of course he is inconsiderate and self-involved. He > is a teenager. > Ravenclaw Bookworm has brought up some excellent points. I'm personally very confused by the the anger and annoyance directed at Harry by many readers after OOTP. I recently had a coworker read OOTP for the first time and she expressed the same feelings that Kemper and Magda shared. I actually find it refreshing that JKR kept Harry much closer to what a teenager would quite possibly be feeling in those situations rather than keeping him a bastion of perfection. Should he hide away his insecurities? Should he instead keep his confusion and hurt hidden away? I think he tries very hard to keep his feelings of inadequacy, worry and general selfishness hidden away in the first 4 books quite well. I suppose I feel very much with Harry at this point because I was one of those children who was very smart, very polite who tried not to be a bother to friend or adults even when I was hurting from social scorn or self-doubt. This trying to be perfect for everyone can also be hurtful. It keeps everyone at arm's length rather than finally allowing them to help out when they do care about you. Harry is at the end of his tether in OOTP. He is really at an emotional precipice. He can't stay in the cupboard below the stairs as it were emotionally. To become the hero he must be he must face up to what the Wizarding World considers to be, how his peers and mentors truly view and measure his own self-worth against that. It is no wonder that when he is with his friends he explodes with emotion. They are the few people that he has ever trusted, loved and opened up to even in the smallest of ways. For him to reveal his anger to them is in its own way a sign of trust on his part. Yes it does seem unfair for him to unleash at the people that truly care for him as Harry (not as a Savior of some sort). But his anger and insecurities are unveiled in those moments which is a much safer alternative to the moments when he does not confide anything to his friends. I'm glad JKR portrayed Harry this way. For me it makes him an even more believable character -- one that is emotionally fragile, his self-esteem experiencing great growing pains. I'll be quite frank this is my favorite book thus far for this very reason. Hermione crumpled under expectations in the 3rd book (hitting Malfoy, etc), Ron abandoned his best friend in the 4th book, this is the book where Harry is at his turning point. I'm excited to see how he will mature in the next volume. Cheers, Ellydan __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From bboyminn at yahoo.com Mon May 30 17:09:14 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:09:14 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129735 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "deborahhbbrd" wrote: > I'd like to make a couple of points about the ethics, slavery etc > discussions: ... > > ... Enter the ancient Greeks and Romans ? > > ...edited... > > And when the happy ending comes about, through the slave's creative > ingenuity, he is asked what he would like as a reward. And is given > it. His freedom, of course. > > ... a powerful story line, which a slave state found convincing. > Slaves can be creative; slaves can be loyal and affectionate; slaves > can play both ends against the middle for the sake of truth and > justice; and slaves can see the big picture... And there is no > compulsion, certainly no thought control, nothing but mutual respect > and affection. It is bizarre, but it is a brilliantly useful plot > device. > bboyminn: I think we can agree that not all slave owners are evil incarnate. Many of them, if for no other reason than to respect their investment, treated their slaves fairly and kindly. As far as Roman and Greek plays, while I haven't read it, "Uncle Tom's Cabin" doesn't seem to fall too far from your sampe Greek/Roman play. > Deborah continues" > > ... There was a remark that Dobby is not a slave but a servant who > (a) chooses to serve and (b) gets paid for his work. > > ... Do the House Elves get paid? Dobby at Hogwarts, yes. But Dobby > at Malfoy Manor? Winky and Kreacher, anywhere? ... And yet Molly > Weasley would love a House Elf but has never been able to afford > one. ... > > Deborah, bboyminn: If you have been following this thread then you may have read my post about House-Elf Honor, and how that honor is a powerful sacred in-grained characteristic of Elves. Others have questioned why only rich people have elves if elves work for free? I think the answer lies in Honor and Pride. To some extent, I greatly speculate, an elf's status is measured by the quality of the house he serves. Would you rather be the house-elf of a homeless pennyless bum or the house-elf of the Minister of Magic? While elves are somewhat above material possessions and personal gain, they are not above pride. True some family's actions give them little cause for pride with regard to their treatment of the house-elves, I suspect even in the worst cases, elves still search for some point of pride in their service and in those they serve. If nothing else, they draw on the social status and wealth of their master as a point of pride. All indication are, or at least that I can see in the books, that the elves give their service freely, requiring only the very basics of food and shelter to sustain them. Just a thought. Steve/bboyminn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon May 30 17:32:26 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:32:26 -0000 Subject: Lupin and Legilimency: Why Wait to Reveal? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129736 I'm thinking about Lupin again, and the evidence we have that he is a Legilimens. The most notable example is in the Shrieking Shack: "But then....," Lupin muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind, ".....why hasn't he shown himself before now? Unless"---Lupin's eyes suddenly widened, as though seeing something beyond Black, something none of the rest could see...." (POA, US Chap. 17) There are other examples of Lupin staring 'intently', but that passage actually makes the connection between staring intently and reading someone's mind. Througout the series we've seen both Dumbledore and Snape looking 'intently' at Harry 'as if they could read his mind' and sure enough in OOTP we find out about Legilimency. So why find out Snape and DD are skilled in Legilimency/Occlumency but not Lupin? Granted there's ESE!Lupin to explain this, and I actually feel it could be suspicious that Lupin wasn't revealed as a Legilimens in OOTP. But I'm putting that aside for the moment to examine other possible reasons. First and most obvious, I guess it's possible Lupin isn't a Legilimens/Occlumens. But canon really supports that he is! Besides the examples, Lupin appears knowledgeable about Occlumency in OOTP, more so than Sirius or other adults except for DD and Snape. And there's that ambiguous statement when Harry visits Grimmauld Place by Floo powder and Lupin tells Sirius if anyone will talk to Snape about ending Occlumency it will be him. I interpreted that to mean he is somehow more qualified to talk with Snape about the lessons than Sirius. And while it's true Snape may like Lupin a tiny bit better than Sirius, Lupin still isn't the *obvious* choice for confronting Snape, given their history. So let's say for argument's sake that canon supports Legilimens! Lupin. Why wait to tell Harry and the readers? One strong possibility is we're going to hear more backstory about Lupin in the next two books, like where exactly he went after Hogwarts, why his best friends suspected he was the spy, and how he became an expert in DADA. If this is true, then it makes sense we will hear about becoming a Legilimens in the context of Lupin's magical development post-Hogwarts. Waiting to explore these unanswered questions is also support for Lupin as HBP. While I don't think this would be a bangy as a new character or someone like DD being revealed as HBP (my first choice), it might go a long way to explain why Rowling has carefully made sure Lupin is the only surviving good Marauder. That there's a reason he's still part of the story and didn't just die or otherwise fade away already. Other than those possibilities, I'm at a loss. Anyone else? Jen From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 30 17:56:04 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 17:56:04 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129737 Dungrollin: So, to my mind, asking "What will it take for you to condemn Draco utterly" is a non-question. I don't think anyone should be condemned utterly, and never given another chance to see if they can do better. Voldemort's only an exception for me because JKR says he is. Alla: Right, but to me the issue is not that whether anyone should be condemned utterly( I agree that they should not), but whether writer thinks that certain character is doomed. You said that Voldemort is an exception for you because JKR said so. Well, even though I said that I don't need interviews to decided that Draco is a bad person, I do take interviews as evidence of authoritarial intent. JMO, of course. I could not find an interview where JKR says that "the worst is coming " for Draco, but I did find Albert Hall interview after OOP, where she says things about Malfoy,which to me do not point out to the direction that Draco is going to see the light. Again, just my opinion. Here are some bits and pieces of this interview from Quick Quotes. " JK Rowling: Malfoy is a made-up name but you could say it was old French for bad faith. It really suits him. Stephen Fry: Bad Faith Malfoy perfect isn't it. Stephen Fry: They are. Everything is more complicated now as Harry gets older. When he entered the wizard-ing world after a horrible time at the Dursleys he expected Wonderland. He almost immediately he wandered into Draco Malfoy and found out that some wizards are racists. Slowly but surely he found out many people in power in the wizarding world are just as nasty and corrupt as in our world. JK Rowling: That's because it's about human nature and people with less pure motives have wands too. A lot of time is trying to legislate for them. Stephen Fry: Exactly, politicians and journalists. It's also true in the real world. People say we haven't got a magic wand to cure all ills of the world but what you show is that even if you have got a magic wand it doesn't cure all the ills. Another question now from Daniel Joseph, Croydon (UK) Video "How do you decide what the baddies would be like?" JK Rowling: This is going to sound awful but I've met enough people I didn't like in my life to have a fairly shrewd idea of what I want baddies to be like. I think from letters I get from people your age that nearly all of you here knows a Draco Malfoy and girls will almost certainly know a Pansy Parkinson. We all grow up with those sort of people and certainly as adults we've all have met people like Lucius Malfoy and some of the other characters. Stephen Fry: Malfoy, Goyle and Crabbe are almost irredeemably bad ? certainly there's almost nothing attractive about about Goyle and Crabbe, repulsive ? Malfoy is reasonably stylish JK Rowling: Malfoy is certainly stylish in the film ? Stephen Fry: It is another one of the most horrible and brilliant inventions of the books is this snobbery this idea of purebloods and mudbloods and this idea of mingling, mixed breeding which is a reflection of some of the things like racism and intolerance that we have in our world. Is that deliberate or did it come to you in a flash again or did it just suddenly JK Rowling: That was deliberate it was always there from the beginning as you saw with Draco ? even from first book with Draco Harry discovers him first being rude about Muggles. " Albert Hall, June 26, 2003. So, even though JKR does not say the words "Draco Malfoy is not going to be redeemed", to me it sounds as if she clearly considers this character to be a baddie. :-) Just my opinion, Alla. From a_svirn at yahoo.com Mon May 30 19:26:26 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 19:26:26 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129738 deborahhbbrd wrote: > I'd like to make a couple of points about the ethics, slavery etc > discussions: and I'm a frustrated would-be snipper because my computer > is playing silly games ? presumably at the instigation of a House Elf > who doesn't want the world to know the truth > > But A Svirn said that slaves have no ethics: since they are deprived > of justice in their entire lives, they must therefore also be devoid > of (a sense of) justice. But we are not living in slave-owning > societies, so how would we know? Enter the ancient Greeks and Romans ? > fanfare ? and their dramatic expressions of current thinking. > > Slave-owning societies, they were. (Bows to Yoda.) And their comedies > were remarkably similar to modern TV sitcoms in many ways, not least > their use of stock characters: the Grumpy Old Man, the Bigmouthed > Boaster, the Dishy Babe, the Manipulative but Lovable Slave who is > the point, of course! This person is, typically, playing his owner's > game in the hopes of furthering his own agenda, which is liberty. The > slave, denied happiness and the choice of a wife, often helps the > Grumpy Old Man's Misunderstood Son to get together with the Dishy Babe > (who is sometimes a slave herself, but is always discovered to have > been free-born after all, so they can marry). He responds > imaginatively to a fellow human in distress, and tries to improve the > Young Master's unhappy lot. (He is not the kind of slave who gets > abused, decapitated etc ? his owners are fair and good, as owners go; > but he pines for freedom and wants the Young Master to enjoy it.) > > And when the happy ending comes about, through the slave's creative > ingenuity, he is asked what he would like as a reward. And is given > it. His freedom, of course. > > Here we have a powerful story line, which a slave state found > convincing. Slaves can be creative; slaves can be loyal and > affectionate; slaves can play both ends against the middle for the > sake of truth and justice; and slaves can see the big picture when > their owners often stare themselves blind against rather nugatory > considerations. And there is no compulsion, certainly no thought > control, nothing but mutual respect and affection. It is bizarre, but > it is a brilliantly useful plot device. I really don't see what your examples have to do with the "matter of honour" as it were. Slaves have the same feelings as free people have, they may or may not possess high intelligence, they can be creative (both Dobby and Kreacher certainly are) etc. But Ethics? Honour? To say that slaves can be as moral and honourable as free people is simply to ignore (and in effect, embellish) the very nature of slavery. Honour implies dignity and integrity; slaves are stripped of both. They do not belong to themselves; they are demoted from `beings' to `things'. In other words, they have no other worth but that in relation to their masters. If their services are important or even indispensable their life purpose is justified and they can feel their own value, if, on the other hand, their labours are expendable ? they are lowly and worthless. That's why for Winky freedom came as such a blow: she had been a privileged servant: she had been trusted with important secrets and her services had been (and indeed later proved to be) indispensable. On her own she simply has no worth and purpose ? hence the depression and alcoholism. a_svirn From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Mon May 30 17:46:51 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 18:46:51 +0100 Subject: More-More Thoughts about Draco References: <003201c5651d$d71b8890$0400a8c0@pensive> Message-ID: <000e01c5653f$90eaf730$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 129739 >> Gerry: >> Could you explain to me why you see the Buckbeak incident as >> a schoolboy thing? For me this incident is so utterly evil. >> The casual disregard for life and other people's suffering >> Draco displays here are to me examples of him being really >> evil. Nothing schoolboy there. > Sherry now: > However, for me, the true nasty evil in the Buckbeak > incident is Draco's desire to hurt Hagrid. He revels in > Hagrid's pain and grief and makes fun of him over it. As we read 'Prisoner of Azkaban', we note, in Chapter 6, that Malfoy and his two companions weren't listening when Hagrid clearly told the two assembled classes that once having received the return bow, no insult must be levelled at the creatures in question. They were both chatting and, once having received Malfoy's insult, Buckbeak struck. From the start, Hagrid's number 1 priority was the safety of his students. Malfoy then saw Buckbeak's attack as the perfect opportunity to get one back on Hagrid. I feel he is a malicious character, but we must remember that the authoress is dealing in these novels with various situations which do occur at school, eg, bullying, favouritism shown by teachers, etc. We note that from his first meeting with Harry, Malfoy plainly shows his dislike of Hagrid. Derek From foxmoth at qnet.com Mon May 30 20:05:01 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 20:05:01 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129740 > Albert Hall, June 26, 2003. > > So, even though JKR does not say the words "Draco Malfoy is not > going to be redeemed", to me it sounds as if she clearly considers > this character to be a baddie. :-) > Pippin: But baddies can have a change of heart. Now suppose that JKR plans a scene where Harry is informed that Draco has decided to turn against Voldemort. Harry has big trouble believing this, especially because no one will tell him why. Not that I'm predicting it, but suppose that Harry has to decide whether to give Draco a second chance. Why would JKR stomp on the suspense by telling us in advance that Draco is capable of redemption? Pippin From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon May 30 21:14:55 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:14:55 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129742 >>Betsy (Horridporrid -- since I see there's another Betsy on the list :-): >Why would JKR include those scenes?< >These are three occasions for Draco to come off as a complete and total drip, and instead JKR slips in strong suggestions that Draco actually *wants* to be Harry's friend.< >> Gerry: >Does he? In the first scene we see him showing off, trying to impress. Not wanting to be Harry's friend, but wanting to be acknowledged as his superiour.< Betsy Hp: The thing is there's nothing in this scene (especially at first) that tells me Draco is trying to prove to Harry that he is superior to him. He tries to talk to Harry about Quidditch and House preference and new racing brooms. All fairly typical topics, I would think, for young wizarding boys to use as means of striking up conversation. In fact it's only after Draco's attempts at conversation fail rather miserably that Draco starts down the "what's your blood status?" path. Interestingly enough Draco asks for Harry's surname at the very *last*, something I think his father would have asked at the very outset. >>Gerry: >Immediately after Harry is placed nest to Draco, Harry gets his robe slipped over his head. It is very well possible that Draco did not get a good look at Harry's muggle clothes. So they are just two boys in new school robes in a probably posh shop (Hagrid takes him to the best shops.)< Betsy Hp: Mmm. That's a good point. I always pictured Draco watching as Harry made his way to the back of the shop, but he could well have only looked at Harry as he climbed onto the stool, which *would* leave little time to check out Harry's clothes. And I would never argue that Draco *isn't* interested in blood and rank. He is his father's son after all. But I think his interest comes directly from his family's prompting, rather than naturally. Again, Draco asks for Harry's surname at the very end of the scene, so it doesn't read like it's his instinctual interest. So why does JKR include this scene? Why does she allow Draco to blather ignorantly on with no idea he's offending Harry? Well, Draco does a perfect job of informing the reader, and Harry, that the WW is much more complicated than expected. It's not a paradise where all of Harry's problems will go away. Hagrid tries to simplify the problem - yes there are bad wizards, but they're all in Slytherin (clearly marked by their black hats ) so no worries. And at first JKR seems to be going along with this simplification. Snape is evil, Draco is evil, therefore Slytherin is evil. But by book end we realize that Snape is merely a redherring and evil Professor Quirrell is never identified as a Slytherin. There *are* bad wizards but they, rather inconventiently, leave their black hats at home. Which means the reader should question *everyone*. First impressions may well be wrong. >>Gerry: >In the second scene he does not want to be Harry's friend, he wants to be HARRY POTTER's friend. If Harry was just another normal half- blood he would have looked down his nose at him.< Betsy Hp: This is very true. And Draco (bless him) makes it abundantly clear. Not very smooth, nor all that cunning. I feel sympathy for his awkwardness, but I don't blame Harry his aversion. And Ron, even with his particular flaws, makes a far better friend. (Just as the Weasleys make a far better adoptive family than the Malfoys would have.) But JKR *still* muddies the waters. Yes, Draco is clearly wanting to get the Harry Potter legend on his side. But Ron is just as interested in Harry being *that* Harry. He's eager to hear about Harry's defeat of Lord Voldemort (forgetting, as children do, that this was when Harry lost his parents so perhaps expressing an eagerness is not the most tactful thing to do). And when Harry gets sorted into Gryffindor the twins chant, "We got Potter! We got Potter!" (SS paperback p.122) So the reader is all, "Ooh, Draco just wants to be friends with Harry because of his *fame*, ick!" And then JKR turns around and shows that *everyone* wants to be friends with Harry because of his fame. Frankly, Harry was lucky to latch on to Ron who though first attracted by the legend sticks around for just plain Harry. >>Gerry: >>As for the dragon... >Malfoy keeps his mouth shot, for a couple of weeks, in which he comes to the hospital wing to gloat at Ron and to threathen him he will display the secret. He does not once approach Harry to tell him he will keep his mouth, and Hagrid's secretis safe. In the end he does betray them, when he gets captured by McGonnagal, when Harry and Ron are under the invisibility cloak. I must really miss something here, as I cannot find any attempt at friendship here.< Betsy Hp: This entire setup strikes me as strange. Draco overhears the trio talking and realizes that Hagrid has a dragon [234]. He sneaks down to Hagrid's hut (by himself) and confirms that what he heard was true [235]. Ron gets bitten and ends up in the hospital wing and Draco comes to taunt Ron about what bit him. He borrows a book that tells him exactly when Harry will be getting rid of the dragon [238]. Draco then sneaks out to where Harry will have to pass with the dragon and stumbles into McGonagall. And *finally* he starts babbling about Harry and a dragon [240]. It just doesn't make sense with what we've learned about Draco. First, Draco almost *never* goes around on his own. Usually Crabbe and Goyle are right behind him. But here we have him sneaking down to Hagrid's hut on his own, and even more out of character, sneaking around Hogwarts, in the middle of the night, alone. Why? And why does he take so long to snitch on them? Why does it take getting caught himself to finally let slip about the dragon? He's cutting it awfully fine, IMO. Is he expecting to overpower Harry and Hermione and drag them in front of Dumbledore himself? Remember, Draco's already set Harry up to get caught out after curfew (the dueling incident) and he felt no need to actually be there himself. So what *is* Draco up to? My personal theory is that Draco *really* wants to see a dragon. He's an established rival of Harry's so he can't just ask to see it. Maybe he visited Ron in the hospital because he was hoping Ron would offer Draco a chance to see the dragon if he just kept his mouth shut. I'm sure he enjoyed watching Ron squirm, but if that's all he was going for, why not out and out tell Madam Pomfrey about the dragon? Of course, Ron doesn't offer the compromise but Draco does find out when the dragon's being moved. So he lies in wait. I think he was just as shocked to run into McGonagall as McGonagall was to run into him. (I picture Draco leaping onto McGonagall with "haha, I've got you now, Harry!" thoughts and being horribly surprised to realize he's just manhandled a professor.) Once he's caught Draco attempts to cover for himself by telling on Harry (completely in character) but I really don't think stumbling across McGonagall was part of his evil plot. I don't think there ever was an evil plot. That's why I think this was a final chance for Draco and Harry to become friends (bonding over the dragon like Ron and Harry bonded with Hermione over the troll). And JKR gives the reader a couple of hints that there's more to Draco than just blood prejudice and a joy in seeing Harry squirm. I think the dragon adventure, more than anything else, is what started me down the path of thinking there's more to Draco than what first meets the eye. >>Betsy Hp: >Do I sympathize? [Quidditch final in PoA] Heck yeah. What has JKR done to discourage me?< >>Gerry: >Made it clear Draco has bought his place on the team. And now he has to compete for real, against somebody who got his place on merits alone.< Betsy Hp: We got that lesson all the way back in CoS. Harry beats Draco by grabbing the snitch from right under his nose, with a broken arm no less. *This* match was a perfect example of the underdog winning with all things going against him. Draco has the better broom, Harry has a broken arm, and Harry still wins. Draco is left getting a lecture from his team captain on how to play the game. And this proves that JKR *knows* how to write a classic sporting tale. So why does she go against all the rules in PoA, especially if she's trying to turn all the readers against Draco? >>Gerry: >I actually thought this scene a good lesson for Draco. It taught him money can sometimes buy you a position, but if you have it you yourself have to live up to it.< Betsy Hp: But the *only* reason Harry beats Draco in the Quidditch final in PoA is because he, Harry, has the better broom. *Draco* is actually playing a better role of Seeker. *Draco* is the one keeping his eyes peeled for the snitch while Harry is off playing the hero (assisting Angelina -- which *was* a nice thing to do,IMO, just not smart quidditch playing). This is almost an exact reverse of what occured in the CoS game, where Draco is the one not looking for the snitch. Harry wins because his rich Godfather bought him a top of the line broom. That goes totally against the rules of the classic sporting tale. The hero is supposed to win on skill, not better equipment. And the only lesson Draco learned is those rich enough to have the best win. Something I suspect his father has already taught him. Harry just happens to have richer relatives (or more generous ones anyway). It's a strange tact for JKR to take, and not a good way to show off how horrible and evil Draco is. >>Betsy Hp: >...on the floor in pain and humiliation and he's *still* spitting defiance at the person who's so obviously way beyond his match. Does JKR seriously expect me to *not* admire that sort of backbone?< >>Gerry: >What backbone? He mumbles 'my father.' And running to daddy does not strike me as admirable. He also immediately stops when Moody calls his bluff.< Betsy Hp: But looking "malevolently" at the man who's just beaten you and threatening to tell on him ain't wussy, IMO. And sure Draco shuts up when Fake!Moody grabs him by the arm and drags him off to Snape. For one thing, he's being taken where I'm sure he wants to go; if any professor will protect him from this abuser it'll be Snape. For another, he's in close physical proximity to an obvious threat. Shutting up is the smart thing to do. It doesn't, IMO, take away the fact that Draco is *not* cowed by Fake!Moody. >>Betsy Hp: >And isn't it interesting that it's by having Fake!Moody abuse Draco that JKR drops the first hint that this particular DADA professor ain't right. >>Gerry: >It is also the first hint as why he hates Death Eaters who have gone free.< Betsy Hp: I missed that one. What does this scene tell us about Fake!Moody's hatred towards Death Eaters who've walked free? >>Gerry >James and Sirius certainly were bullies, but only against Snape, and the feeling was mutual. Draco loves the misery of everybody he does not like.< Betsy Hp: I quote Lily regarding James' (and most likely Sirius') behavior towards those they don't like: "...walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can..." (OotP scholastic ed p.648) So apparently James was just as bad, if not worse (we don't often hear about Draco throwing random hexes), towards those he disliked. I don't condone anyone's behavior here. But because James and Sirius grow up and become good men, I have hope that Draco is still open towards that sort of change. Because JKR saw fit to paint James and Sirius in this particular light and made very clear that fifteen year- olds *do* grow up I think she is still leaving a door open for Draco. >>Betsy Hp: >Draco is not a paragon of virtue. He is a nasty little boy with a lot of anger issues and a messed up value system, but so far he's not done anything, IMO, that can't easily be forgiven (as per rules of forgiveness within the Potterverse as set out by JKR) *if* he finally joins the side of Light.< >>Gerry: >That I agree with, but I would want to see some very good reasons as why he would change.< Betsy Hp: I agree. JKR can't just have Draco suddenly side with the Light. He'd have to go against his father for one thing and JKR has done too good a job setting up Draco's love and admiration for his father for Draco to easily oppose him. I have no idea *how* JKR will set Draco down the right path (if she even does), though I suspect Snape may have something to do with it. Mainly I'm just trying to say that at this point JKR has left many doors open to Draco. >>Gerry: >In one of the essays you posted somebody excuses Draco joining the Inquisitorial Squad as him choosing the force of law and order. Not a bad point. But how do we see Draco use his power? We see him abusing it. Also, Draco knows LV is back, he knows Harry is right and Umbridge and the Ministry are wrong and misleading the pubic and the students. With his joinig of Umbridge he deliberately helps her against spreading the truth. Now I do not say he needed to go against his father, but he could have stayed neutral. I do not think it is a coincidence that half the squad we know by name are children of Death Eaters, who have an interest in having the truth stay covered.< Betsy Hp: I don't think it's a coincidence either. Draco could well be taking marching orders from his father (who appears to be in contact with Umbridge). And he does gleefully misuse the power given him by Umbridge. I agree that Draco isn't really on the side of law and order here. (Or at least not order. Draco seems to really enjoy the chaos Umbridge is spreading, especially since it's hurting those he dislikes.) No, Draco certainly does nothing in OotP to suggest he's turning away from Voldemort. I think if you asked him, at this point he'd be eager to follow in his father's footsteps and become a Death Eater. What I question is if Draco a) fully understands what it is to be a Death Eater, and b) if he *really* has the personality to truly enjoy killing and torturing people. Does Draco, as we've seen him, seem the type who'd relish turning a Crucio on someone until they literally went mad from the pain? I think JKR has left that question open, and so I do think it's still possible for Draco to move away from his father and make the right choice. >>Betsy Hp: >And I don't see how removing such an obviously strong influence in Draco's life and thereby possibly prepping him to be open to other influences would constitute a half-assed redemption. It seems fairly realistic to me. (Think of all those kids who start rethinking their family philosophy when they go away to college.)< >>Gerry: >What removing? He in Azkaban without the dementors.< Betsy Hp: Yes, but if Lucius breaks out (a very real possibility) I doubt he'll be able to just hang around Malfoy Manor giving Draco advice. >>Gerry: >Besides, the boy is at boarding school, removed from parental authority for most of the year. Not much of a difference here.< Betsy Hp: But his family *is* in constant contact. How else does Draco get those little tid-bits of information he passes on to Harry all the time? Even if Lucius breaks out of Azkaban he'll be on the run, I imagine, so he'll have little time to stay in contact with Draco. And without his father around to offer advice and montor his choices Draco may turn to the other father-figure in his life, Snape. And that might be a turning point for him. (I cannot see Snape encouraging Draco to become a Death Eater, not after he's struggled so long to make up for that mistake.) Betsy Hp From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon May 30 21:15:39 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:15:39 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129743 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" > wrote: Alla: > So, even though JKR does not say the words "Draco Malfoy is not > going to be redeemed", to me it sounds as if she clearly considers > this character to be a baddie. :-) > > Just my opinion, Geoff: Perhaps I need to reiterate from my comments in recent posts that I am /not/ suggesting that Draco is going to come over to the good side; what I am saying to those who have written him off as evil is that the jury is still out. The books are not ended; we have not seen how he will develop in his last two years at Hogwarts. I stand by what I said, speaking as a converted Christian. No one is irredeemable unless they make themselves so by their choices. The whole thrust of Christian belief is that Jesus presents to us the way of redemption which we can accept ? or reject. There are many real life examples of "baddies" who have changed their life as a result and, as someone has said, JKR could create a situation where Draco's world view undergoes a sea change - which would be a great surprise to the poeple of the Wizarding World and of the real world but not beyond the realms of the possible. What has prompted my thoughts on this is the fact that I believe many contributors to this group are guilty of holding a double standard. We are told that Snape is on the side of good; Dumbledore himself has vouched for his reliability. However, Snape has behaved equally or more nastily towards pupils than Draco. Snape has behaved equally or more viciously towards pupils than Draco. Snape has behaved equally or more confrontationally towards pupils than Draco. However, because the good professor is a supporter of the cause of good, we are expected to see this as being acceptable behaviour from him, although perhaps we do so reluctantly. Because Draco is linked to the Dark side, when he behaves nastily or viciously or confrontationally, his attitudes are pilloried as being unacceptable, evil and dangerous. Snape can wreak more havoc than Draco in his behaviour because, as a teacher, his comments and actions carry more authority. Pupils cannot turn round and tell Snape to get lost and have to put up with this barrage of criticism and bias without comment. Draco, on the other hand is parroting what he has been told by his family, by friends of the family and also by the attitudes which Snape - someone to whom he apparently looks to as a model - has demonstrated in his sight and hearing. I have already remarked that Draco was only 12 when he made the verbal attack on half-blood and Muggle-born pupils in COS. At this point, he will still be seeing those who have instilled these biases and dogmas into him as people to emulate to and to follow. Both Snape and Draco are ambivalent figures in their attitudes and outlooks; maybe the latter is more influenced by the Voldemort camp but I believe that we ourselves need to be more impartial and unbiased in our interpretation of their actions. We may have more data to work on in 48 days...... From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Mon May 30 21:45:50 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:45:50 -0000 Subject: Theodore Nott: The Good Slytherin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129744 >>Amber: >Anyway, if we do get a good Slytherin, my money's on Nott, not Malfoy.< Betsy Hp: I'll be surprised if the Good Slytherin is Nott *because* JKR told us more about him on her website. If she really was going to include a widening of Nott's character within the books, why give away some of the reveals on her website? It's the same reason I doubt Dean is the halfblood prince. JKR only told us about Dean's personal history because she didn't have room to include it in the books. If JKR doesn't have room to include Nott's personal history in the books than I doubt he'll ever have an important role to play. Betsy Hp From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Mon May 30 21:54:28 2005 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 21:54:28 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco?/ Snape v Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129745 Geoff: Perhaps I need to reiterate from my comments in recent posts that I am /not/ suggesting that Draco is going to come over to the good side; what I am saying to those who have written him off as evil is that the jury is still out. The books are not ended; we have not seen how he will develop in his last two years at Hogwarts. Alla: Everything is possible of course. I am still expecting many interesting revelations about the past of Marauders and Snape for example. I am just saying that two books may not be enough to write credible redemption for Draco. As I said previously - I don't see any hints in the books so far, except of course that Draco is still a child, but again I have known quite a few of bad children, who did not change. ( Several of my former classmates back in Ukraine for example went down the road of the criminals and believe it or not I sort of expected it to happen even though last time when I saw them we were fourteen - fifteen years old) Geoff: There are many real life examples of "baddies" who have changed their life as a result and, as someone has said, JKR could create a situation where Draco's world view undergoes a sea change - which would be a great surprise to the poeple of the Wizarding World and of the real world but not beyond the realms of the possible. Alla: Again, it IS possible, but based on how I read JKR's intent towards Draco ( and of course I can be dead wrong), it is not the path she is going to put this character on. She is sort of gave up on his development, IMO. I think it also a matter of book space. If it was Draco's story, then she could have done plenty with him in last two books, IMO, but it is not. It is Harry's story and for Draco's redemption to be written credibly, some hints should have been dropped earlier than book 6, IMO. Geoff: What has prompted my thoughts on this is the fact that I believe many contributors to this group are guilty of holding a double standard. We are told that Snape is on the side of good; Dumbledore himself has vouched for his reliability. However, Snape has behaved equally or more nastily towards pupils than Draco. Snape has behaved equally or more viciously towards pupils than Draco. Snape has behaved equally or more confrontationally towards pupils than Draco. However, because the good professor is a supporter of the cause of good, we are expected to see this as being acceptable behaviour from him, although perhaps we do so reluctantly. Because Draco is linked to the Dark side, when he behaves nastily or viciously or confrontationally, his attitudes are pilloried as being unacceptable, evil and dangerous. Alla: Ummm, I hope you don't include me in this group of "holding a double standard" Geoff. :-) If I were to grade Draco and Snape's behaviour towards other students, then absolutely no doubt about it, Snape will take the first place as much more dangerous, abusive, etc. ( take your pick) simply because Draco for the most part is no match for HRH ( NOT for the lack of trying though) BUT when we move from the area of personal relationships into the area of Dark v Light, then the fact that Snape is on Dumbledore's side ( and even here surprises are possible, IMO) starts playing its role. I am not sure why you see it as double standard, really. I just separate Snape as teacher and Snape as member of Order. He IS a child abuser, IMO only of course, but he is NOT, IMO only of course, Voldemort's supporter anymore. Draco at the same time has a very big potential to become Voldemort's supporter, IMO. So, if I were to judge that aspect of their personalities I would call Snape a better person than Draco. But I am not calling Snape a good person in general, not at all. I am calling him a bad person who is on the side of Light. Pippin: But baddies can have a change of heart. Now suppose that JKR plans a scene where Harry is informed that Draco has decided to turn against Voldemort. Harry has big trouble believing this, especially because no one will tell him why. Not that I'm predicting it, but suppose that Harry has to decide whether to give Draco a second chance. Why would JKR stomp on the suspense by telling us in advance that Draco is capable of redemption? Alla: Good point, Pippin. IF the only reason for Draco's redemption would be to make Harry grow as a person and it is possibloe since it is Harry's story, JKR may want to keep quiet about Draco's path. But I would think that she would like to develop Draco's character too and honsetly I would consider such redemption to be a sloppy writing. I would want to know why exactly Draco suddenly decided to see the light, personally. Besides, keeping quiet is one thing, but JKR is talking about Draco ina very negative way ( I belong to the group of readers who don't believe that she lies in the interviews. :-)) Just my opinion, Alla. From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Tue May 31 00:16:46 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:16:46 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > the question is ....> > what is wrong with the story? > i will answer here on Monday and explain how the riddle > and the answer are both on topic and relevant to a very > key event in Harry's life ........ > > for those of you who cant wait, the answer is at > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots/40 > > in the potterplots yahoogroup where many Harry Potter > theories are hatched or cracked {or both} So you said that someone else had to be there to witness and divulge the event in a later post (that I can't find right now), and the question became: but who was it? US Pb PoA (p361): "Like father, like son, Potter! . . . You'd have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken in Black -- now get out of the way, or I will make you. . . ." -Snape Now, Snape could have heard from other DEs or surmised that James didn't believe that Sirius could betray them, but it sounds like Snape *knew* that James believed Sirius innocent *until he died,* perhaps because Snape had seen it with his own eyes. TK -- TigerPatronus From templar1112002 at yahoo.com Tue May 31 01:11:13 2005 From: templar1112002 at yahoo.com (templar1112002) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 01:11:13 -0000 Subject: You had me going there, festuco, but there is this little problem... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129747 tinglinger ============== -snip-- > > Dumbledore had Hagrid deliver baby Harry to the Dursleys > > at Privet Drive the very next day > > SPECIFICALLY TO GIVE HARRY THE PROTECTION MADE POSSIBLE BY > > LILY'S SACRIFICE (OOP-CH 37-THE LOST PROPHECY). > > > > So.... unless Harry told the whole story to Hagrid before > > falling asleep over Bristol, how did Dumbledore know that > > Lily had sacrificed her life to save Harry ... > > Finwitch replied: > > How does Dumbledore know? How has he always appeared to know > everything? I thought OOP gave us the answer: Legilimency. Since > Dementors can drag the memory from Harry years after, when Harry - > due to being so young - has forgotten all but green light - and a > laughter brought up when Hagrid told him the truth - why couldn't > Dumbledore do a quick Legilimency on Harry to confirm how things > were? Of course, if it wasn't what he thought, he would have taken > care of Harry himself or something... > > Hmm-mm. Think of this: 'The twinkling light that usually shone from > Dumbledore's eyes seemed to be gone out.' (PS end of the Boy Who > Lived, page 17 in my book). and this, as far as I remember, is the > ONLY time Dumbledore's eyes don't *twinkle*. > > Now that we know about Legilimency/Occlumency, (and how JKR uses the > word *seem* in the books, well...) if that twinkle is Dumbledore's > Occlumency-shield, it was gone because he had let it down in order to > do Legilimency on Harry -- OR Harry's infant, uncontrolled magic had > just rejected Dumbledore's Legilimency with similar mirror-effect we > saw when Snape was giving Harry Occlumency-lessons (leaving > Dumbledore a bit defenceless for that brief moment). > ===================== **Marcela asks: That still doesn't answer tinglinger's question... How did Dumbledore know that Lily had "unwittingly" -like Voldy said in the Graveyard scene in GoF- activated an ancient blood protective charm? If Dumbledore performed the Legilimency on baby Harry when Hagrid brought him back, then why was he already at the Dursleys? Marcela From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue May 31 01:34:14 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 01:34:14 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129748 >Tiger: > So you said that someone else had to be there to witness and divulge > the event in a later post (that I can't find right now), and the > question became: but who was it? > > US Pb PoA (p361): "Like father, like son, Potter! . . . You'd have > died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken > in Black -- now get out of the way, or I will make you. . . ." -Snape > > Now, Snape could have heard from other DEs or surmised that James > didn't believe that Sirius could betray them, but it sounds like > Snape *knew* that James believed Sirius innocent *until he died,* > perhaps because Snape had seen it with his own eyes. Valky: You know I absolutely agree with you Tiger, I have always thought that this is the strongest evidence to the theory that Snape was at Godrics Hollow. Now going on an assumption that this is true the scenario unfolds some interesting Questions. First lets draw the picture: James is adamant that Sirius would not betray him at the moment (or extremely close to the moment) of his death. Voldemort kills James in a duel. Snape witnesses James unwavering trust in Sirius even when faced with imminent death and/or James actual death. Snape owes James a life debt that he never managed to repay. Looking over these things one thing is clear, If the first premise is true (Snape saw the sacrifice) and the second premise is true (Snape saw James before his death) then this must also be true: Snape had /no/ time to hide from Voldemort and he stayed long enough to see Lily die, therefore he was there long enough to DO NOTHING to help James in the duel. This raises questions as to what exactly Snape DID do while James was duelling Voldemort, and to figure that out we need more canon. Snape is/was a double agent spy. Somebody said "Take Harry and Run I'll Hold him off" Voldemort was reputed unkillable. So if the three of our previous premise are true One of the following must also be true: Snape was never seen by Voldemort OR Snape was seen by Voldemort and Snape appeared loyal to him (possibly even helping him overcome James) Before I go on with more question formulating, let me just ask this. Who here thinks Snape hid for his life and who thinks he helped Voldie kill James? Valky From debdant at lexcominc.net Mon May 30 23:21:01 2005 From: debdant at lexcominc.net (deborama59) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:21:01 -0000 Subject: You had me going there, festuco, but there is this little problem... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129749 tinglinger > So.... unless Harry told the whole story to Hagrid before > falling asleep over Bristol, how did Dumbledore know that > Lily had sacrificed her life to save Harry without someone > else being there to tell him that a sacrifice indeed > happened? Somehow I don't think that Dumbledore would have > left him with the Dursleys without benefit of the protection I find this thread extremely interesting and I almost hope someone else was at GH that fateful night, but...... It seems to me there are precious few ways for anyone to survive the AK curse. The fact that Harry *DID* survive is the only evidence Dumbledore needs to surmise what Lily did and what he must therefore do in turn. deborama59 who was encouraged by Renee's post to de-lurk herself! From kgpopp at yahoo.com Tue May 31 00:28:34 2005 From: kgpopp at yahoo.com (kgpopp) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 00:28:34 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129750 > I really don't see what your examples have to do with the "matter > of honour" as it were. Slaves have the same feelings as free people > have, they may or may not possess high intelligence, they can be > creative (both Dobby and Kreacher certainly are) etc. But Ethics? > Honour? To say that slaves can be as moral and honourable as free > people is simply to ignore (and in effect, embellish) the very > nature of slavery. Honour implies dignity and integrity; slaves are > stripped of both. They do not belong to themselves; they are > demoted from `beings' to `things'. Kristen here Interesting discussion hope you don't mind me jumping in with my 2 cents. First, while I agree that to the owner of slaves; the salves are demoted from beings to things. However in the real world I cannot make the stretch to believe that all slaves think of themselves as a thing. Full disclosure :-) My favorite quote is from Eleanor Roosevelt "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." And as you'll see by the rest of my post I put a lot of stock in that belief. So it is no surprise that I would also disagree that slaves cannot have dignity and integrity. IMO Dignity is a state of worth/esteem and respect that you give yourself; and integrity is acting in accordance with your values. Therefore, if you respect yourself and act in accordance with your values you can have dignity and integrity even if other don't give it to you. Last I maybe reading into your argument something you did not intend but it seems that you are making an assumption that slaves lack free will. And IMO all people (slaves and those who are "free") have free will. Now I am sure I will get a lot of disagreement to that statement so let me make a preemptive strike and say that I will also argue that if you are a slave the choice to act in a manner that is consistent with your values (e.g. with honor and integrity) is most likely much much harder than a person who is free. But I still believe they have a choice. e.g. A master asks a slave Mike, to kill someone say Mary. Both the Master and the slave Mike have a free will and can make a choice kill Mary or let her live. Now the consequence of there action vary greatly the slave Mike risks death if he choose not to obey his master, while the master may risk nothing by killing. But I still argue that while slave Mike is given 2 very bad options he still has a choice. So how does this apply to house elves and the potterverse? Well the magic contract part makes it a little trickier than human slaves in the real because it seems that the magic contract does prevents them from directly disobeying an order. So if some magical spell prevents certain actions then house elves may not have total free will. However, I think Dobby and Kreacher both help make my point because they both chose to act in accordance with their beliefs and found ways to around the technical limitation imposed by the magical contract. (if such thing exists). > In other words, they have no other worth > but that in relation to their masters. If their services are > important or even indispensable their life purpose is justified and > they can feel their own value, if, on the other hand, their labours > are expendable ? they are lowly and worthless. That's why for Winky > freedom came as such a blow: she had been a privileged servant: she > had been trusted with important secrets and her services had been > (and indeed later proved to be) indispensable. On her own she simply > has no worth and purpose ? hence the depression and alcoholism. > > a_svirn Kristen again I actually kinda agree with your read on Winky. I don't think she saw value in herself, but rather as you suggest she got her self worth from the value Mr. Crouch placed on her. And while I fear that many house elves would feel the same Dobby and even dreadful Kreacher give me hope that the house elves can start to value themselves. From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue May 31 03:10:54 2005 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 30 May 2005 23:10:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Neville and Ginny (was: Harry and Ginny Weasley) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129751 In a message dated 5/30/2005 4:17:34 AM Central Standard Time, fiscused at yahoo.com writes: There's very little evidence to determine Neville's feelings, so you could be right. But I'm dissuaded from that line of thinking by the remembrance that Ginny wasn't Neville's first choice for a date, and they apparently didn't end the night together. Also, he may have aided any member of the DA just the same. Ginny also defends Neville on the train to Hogwarts, albeit from himself. In the Luna Lovegood chapter Harry and Neville have just seen Luna for the first time. Luna says to Harry "your Harry Potter and then she turns to Neville and says: 'And I don't know who you are.' 'I'm nobody,' said Neville hurriedly. 'No you're not,' said Ginny sharply. 'Neville Longbottom - Luna Love good. Luna's in my year, but in Ravenclaw.' Now I always thought Neville said that just to not draw Luna's attention to himself. Ginny "sharp" reply seemed out of place to me. <> Oh I think he does have a larger role to play just not as Voldemort's defeater . Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan at worldnet.att.net Tue May 31 03:30:57 2005 From: coriolan at worldnet.att.net (coriolan_cmc) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 03:30:57 -0000 Subject: FILK: The Beast Inside of You Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129752 The Beast Inside of You (OOP, Chap. 22) To the tune of Peter Allen's The Best That You Can Do (aka the Theme from Arthur) I was going to use the version of the song that is sung in the musical The Boy From Oz, which omits the second stanza. But when I saw that the second stanza begins with the word "Arthur," I knew I had to include it. Dedicated to CV "But that fellow over there,' [Arthur] said, dropping his voice and nodding towards the bed opposite in which a man lay looking green and sickly and staring at the ceiling. 'Bitten by a werewolf, poor chap. No cure at all.' 'A werewolf?' whispered Mrs. Weasley, looking alarmed. 'Is he safe in a public ward? Shouldn't he be in a private room?' 'It's two weeks till full moon,' Mr Weasley reminded her quietly. They've been talking to him this morning, the Healers, you know, trying to persuade him he'll be able to lead an almost normal life. I said to him - didn't mention names, of course - but I said I knew a werewolf personally, very nice man, who finds the condition quite easy to manage.' 'What did he say?' asked George. 'Said he'd give me another bite if I didn't shut up,' said Mr Weasley sadly. WEREWOLF (looking wistfully at the Weasleys) Sadly that wolf it found me And so I wear St. Mungo's gowns Next thing you know, I'm headed for the Pound Woke up with lycanthropy Though the Healers say it's safe & sound When rendering up a shelf of Snape's compound When you get caught beneath a moon that has no pity You grow more fuzzy, howling, too When you get caught beneath a moon that has no pity The beast inside of you...... The beast inside of you becomes a wolf Arthur, he's one of the Weasleys In for snakebite, he's with his spouse Once he is cured, it's back, back to his house He's knowing a wolf who's just doing fine I'm thinking to myself it's only moonshine Growling at him to hush or I'll bite him fiercely When you get caught beneath a moon that has no pity You grow more fuzzy, howling, too When you get caught beneath a moon that has no pity The beast inside of you...... The beast inside of you...... The beast inside of you becomes a wolf - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From darkthirty at shaw.ca Tue May 31 03:33:42 2005 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (tbernhard2000) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 03:33:42 -0000 Subject: Morality in Potter - ugly and boring and stupid and useless Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129753 Our friend Hans wrote in a different group that Harry Potter contains no moral message. As you know, I take the same stance, but for a different reason. Nevertheless, it's good to hear someone else say it clearly, so I cannot pass up the opportunity to post something on this group about it. Now, Hans is always talking about liberation in a spiritual sense. I am so not new age, or whatever the term is, not so religious at all. But listen: is there a space for each individual each person, as it were, to find their own set of beliefs or symbols... what I mean is, I look at Scientology (to pick one example), and as weird as it first looks, isn't Xenu with his Cineplex mind trap clearly fulfilling the standard, universal demon role, the bringer of false images, and auditing the process of freeing oneself from illusion! Isn't this the ultimate legilimens? We can cast hither and thither, and find such imagery, yes, in popular and obscure religions! But what of us critical folk, us questioners, us freeloading, non-tithing secular humanists? What is our freedom, our liberation? What is the status of our deeper appreciation of Rowling? Secular humanism doesn't have the same special protections as official "churchs" - the language of television, of commerce and so forth has occluded the truly powerful so-called spiritual element of secular humanism.... So, when Rowling is reclaiming some of that language as truly capable of addresses the deeper, the so-called spiritual concerns, it is possible that the message is lost. The sidetrack dialogues become the whole, and the centre is lost. I remind again the centre of the entire series is the second task. The acting without philosophy, without moral debate. Acting in the moment, on gut instinct, that Harry's gut tells him to take the path he took. Not the fact of gut instinct, but what he actually in fact really in reality in action does on gut instinct. This is essential, or what I am talking about, and have talked about ad nauseum when I used to post lots, won't make a bit of sense. The type of secular humanist I am is, uh, Calvinist. Meaning - I believe that enlightenment can come from studying ANYTHING at all, where Calvin believed that, whatever we learned would bring us closer to god. I also, like Calvin, believe there are things operating in us, as individuals, that we cannot entirely parse, and are often only noticed when, for instance, we have to act, pretty much without thinking (like Harry at the Second Task). I can't explain why Harry did what he did in the lake, nor does Rowling try to explain. She gives some internal dialogue, but it doesn't amount to explanation. As I've said before, people who do extraordinary things, like save lives at risk to themselves, that hid Jews during the Second World War and so forth, have never explained their actions in terms of some morality, ever. Never. It doesn't happen. They give some internal dialogue, but nowhere do these people explain anything. Rowling has not explained these things. A comment or two about love. I have a take on Rowling's genius that is this - I think she is writing for her life, in a way, and that the sense of importance in her work comes from this. It's personal, for her, let me put it that way. And, if I am right, than someone who writes from this life and death stance in such a personal way will strike big chords with their art. In that past I have claimed this life and death position had to do with a glimpsed horror, an atrocity, something quite real that struck her personally and deeply - in the way that I have described those who act without thought or morality are struck in those moments. Perhaps, like the narrator in Camus' The Fall, Rowling didn't do all she could, and HP is her penance. Perhaps she acted as much as she could, but was stonewalled, stymied or stuck. But there is a debate going on in the novels, not just between characters and their organizations, but between Rowling and herself, and between writer and reader. Just because the books are written from life and death doesn't mean they can't be fun, funny and even silly, at points. In fact, the humour is more wonderful for it. If not morality, I have said, there is ethical dialogue. No argument is going to save a drowning person, no idea will make a difference. The books, I say, are about that as much as anything. The books are a kind of ethical dialogue, internally for Jo and for the readers, a kind of ethical test, question and response, feeling its way through this world. In my more judgemental days, I really think most of the people who read the books haven't got the foggiest idea what they are reading! Those are my cranky days - when the plot pickers and student counters and class calendar derivers just seem to be talking like tax auditors, or days when, goodness, when I happen to read a bit of fan fiction. I don't want to go too far with this right now, but a cursory read of the fan fiction, or an hour of posts on HPfGU, kinda tells all. People seem to interpret Rowling in a very personal way - possibly because of the elements I claim are there - absence of any moral claptrap, absence of intellectualization of acts, an appreciation that life is bigger than any fool's claim of what it is. I have no conclusion. I do not hold to any organized belief system. I seem to always live here and now, with only some experience, and some internal ethical compass to go on. That compass is not going to be set askew, that much I know. Why isn't this enough for people? What is wrong with knowledge? Why do they want others to agree with them? Are we always in child mode? Why do people kill? Why do they have to find others who think the same way they do? Why are racists racist, what brings them to that? Why do people get angry about a statement, and idea, an image in their heads, a rumour, a too loud breath? Thank goodness Rowling or HP isn't a religion. These are the real question's Jo is dealing with, at any rate, in every book, all through the books, on every page, while still telling a bang up story, that some people have dreams and fantasies around, that some find tap into the deepest of all stories, and so forth. For the rest, as Giradeaux said about poverty, "ugly and boring and stupid and useless" From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 31 05:53:41 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 05:53:41 -0000 Subject: The Sacking of Trelawney Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129754 I am listening to the 5th book again on tape. It is amazing how you hear things that you skipped over when reading the books or even when listening the first 2 times to the tape. I must just be a bit dense. The clues are so imbedded in with other things that they are very easy to miss. Sometimes I have noticed that JKR puts about 5 clues in one sentence of seeming unimportant commentary. Such at the dream that Harry had with LV and Rookwood. Then we come to the Sacking. No one seems to be the least surprised that DD was able to replace Trelawney so quickly. Actually within it seems 5 to 15 minutes of when she was sacked. Now I am sure that maybe he figured it might happen and had a plan, but even still, his timing seems impossible. How did he know it was even happening? I can't imagine that Umbridge gave him any warning that it was going to happen at all and at that very moment. He would have had to have had it all planned out with Firenze ahead of time. And what kind of an agreement would that have been? "Well Firenze, I don't want to insult you or anything, but just in case my divination teacher is sacked could you come along and take over?" Somehow I can't see that type of conversation with a Centaur!! I guess Firenze could have offered to help in anyway he might be needed whenever DD called him, but again I can't see that either since he knows the price he will pay. I would think that it would have taken some time for DD to discuss it with him and for Firenze to make that type of a decision. We are so taken in by the action that we (or at least I) don't see the *wait a minute how did that happen?* part of the whole thing. It just sort of flows and no one in the story even bats an eye. Just poof DD is there to save the day, just like always. No wizard can be *that* good. How does he do it? OK, now maybe there are paintings in the room that Umbridge and Trelawney were in and they told DD. But even then, it just all happens so fast. Maybe DD uses a time-turner. But I don't think he does that all the time either. What is his secret?? This like everything else has probably been discussed before. If so where? I know that many of us are rereading or re-listening to the 5th book right now. Does anyone else have any thoughts about this? Tonks_op From tonks_op at yahoo.com Tue May 31 06:58:18 2005 From: tonks_op at yahoo.com (Tonks) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:58:18 -0000 Subject: Another Solution about GH/ was Re: You had me going there, festuco... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > > So.... unless Harry told the whole story to Hagrid before > falling asleep over Bristol, how did Dumbledore know that > Lily had sacrificed her life to save Harry without someone > else being there to tell him that a sacrifice indeed > happened? Tonks: Well we are back to *there is something about DD*. He knows all, sees all, etc??? Or how about this wild idea: We could say that when Harry was taken somewhere for that mysterious 24 hours that maybe there is some way to take a memory from a baby and put it in a pensive that the child can look at later when he is old enough to understand what it all means. And this is what happened, with some strands of it still left which cause Harry to have the nightmares from time to time. (Maybe some of the strand has to stay in the mind so that the memory has something to attach to when it is put back in.) The memory was taken out, put in DD's pensive and examined. That is how DD knows. (Only a very skilled Wizard like DD can do this with a baby, it is not common place.) Also since DD wanted Harry to grow up not knowing that he was special he did not want to keep the memory in Harry's head. In book 6 Harry with DD's help will look at the memory of that night at GH and DD will help Harry process it and put it back in his head. Maybe this even in some way is important to the defeating of LV. Maybe having the memory out of Harry helped him to survive and to kept LV from regaining his powers earlier. Hey, a shot in the dark sometimes hits the mark, it is an off the wall idea, but you never know Tonks_op From spoonmerlin at yahoo.com Tue May 31 06:58:57 2005 From: spoonmerlin at yahoo.com (Brent) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:58:57 -0000 Subject: Riddle solved - congrats Renee! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tinglinger" wrote: > tinglinger > ============= > If no one else was at Godric's Hollow to witness the alleged > events that occurred there, then JKR violated the Omnipotent > Observer rule of writing (i.e. a story must be verifiable in > order to have validity.) > SO........... what does all this tell me ? > SOMEONE ELSE was at Godric's Hollow at the time Harry's > parents were murdered. > As for who .... > > bboyminn: > ============ > > But I think their is a slight flaw in the reasoning in your > thougths on the riddle and on the 'Omnipotent Observer'. > First, isn't it the /omniscient/ observer; or the 'third > person omniscient narrator'. > 'Omnipotent' means all-powerful; 'omniscient' mean all-knowing. > > tinglinger -- I agree! Mea culpa should have said > Omniscient Observer as you suggested. > > bboyminn > ============== > In the Riddle, there is one person who knows the entire story, > and that person is the dead man. The riddle could be related to > us by the all-knowing ethereal spirit of the dead man; as a man, > he knows the dream, and as a ghost, he know the events outside > himself. Therefore, he is able to relate the complete event to > us. In this sense, the ghost of the man is quite capable of > being the omniscient narrator. > > tinglinger > ============= > I would agree with your argument if the Riddle was a ghost story. > There was no indication from the telling that it was, so it might > be a bit of a reach to make that assumption. Btw, I believe that > this Riddle originally appeared in the Reader's Digest many many > years ago. > > > bboyminn > =========== > As far as the events at Godric's Hollow, have you ever watched > the TV show 'C.S.I.' (Crime Scene Investigation). It's their > job to know what happened during a crime even when there are > no witnesses to recount the events. The clues and evidence at > the scene can lead them to very sound and reasonable > conclusions. > The question of how anyone could know what happened at Godrics > Hollow come up before, I think at bare minimum, Dumbledore and > the Order examined the crime scene and were able to reach > certain logical, though perhaps not absolutely provable, > conclusion. From the clues, they were able to reconstruct a > reasonable account of the events. > Of course, from the many discussions of this, the idea that > someone else was there has grown stronger and stronger. I > would say that it has grown to the point where it is generally > accepted. The most likely candidate so far is Peter. However, > if Peter was there, he would not likely have recounted the > events to Dumbledore. There is some chance that, directly or > indirectly, Peter may have recounted the events to Snape who > in turn informed Dumbledore. > > tinglinger > ============ > Dumbledore and the Order could have figured out what happened > but, unless there was a pensieve recording Lily's words when > she made her sacrifice, how do we know what she did or > whether Voldemort indeed said "You don't have to die!" > I assume that CSI examines "physical" evidence that is > uncovered at the scene. > > bboyminn > =========== > So, again, I'm not trying to be a spoil-sport. The answer to > the riddle is the answer to the riddle. It's easy, after the > fact, to come up with rationalized alternative scenarios. > As a side note, I would like to point out that there is a > huge difference between 'rational' and 'rationalize'. Don't > know if it's worth anything, but there it is. > > tinglinger > ============== > I always look forward to the comments of any poster who > presents a point of view rather than a guess. We can always > agree or disagree on the interpretation of events. That's > what makes these groups interesting and fun! > > tinglinger > ================ > who always likes a good discussion and glad that this one is > moving along quite nicely... > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/potterplots > for more theories and friendly discussions What if DD used a time turner to observe the events without interfering as is the rule. Maybe he has some guilt from the fact he didn't stop this from happening for it must. He would have seen that LV didn't die. I have long believed that DD appears to be all knowing because he goes back to watch events to see how they happened. Brent From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 31 07:34:58 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:34:58 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kgpopp" wrote: > > ...huge snip... > > Kristen again > > I actually kinda agree with your read on Winky. I don't think she > saw value in herself, but rather as you suggest she got her self > worth from the value Mr. Crouch placed on her. And while I fear that > many house elves would feel the same Dobby and even dreadful > Kreacher give me hope that the house elves can start to value > themselves. bboyminn: Excellent points being made by both sides. However, at this point I'm going to jump off on a side tangent that I touched on before. There is a big difference, as you both indicated, between the circumstance that freed Winky and those that freed Dobby. The point I made earlier was that Dobby wasn't freed because he failed to adequately or appropriately serve his master. In fact, Dobby's master did not want him to leave his service. Since Dobby was freed by a technicality, he left his service with his dignity and honor intact; he had not failed as an elf. Winky on the other hand, was indeed freed for failure of service. She disobeyed her master which, without the back story, seemed extremely harsh to Hermione, but Winky's action were potentially disasterous to Crouch. If the full backstory had been disclosed, Crouch's career would have been over, and HE would have been in disgrace. So, again, the point is that Winky failed as a house-elf, and in having her service terminated, she not only disgraced herself, and her own elfin family, but her entire race. In her mind, I speculate that she has violated her core nature, and further been dishonorably discharged from a family that her own elfin family has served for generations. That dishonor and disgrace goes a long way toward explaining Winky's response. These circumstances in the book are one of the reasons I put so much emphasis on Elfin Honor as being one of the binding forces at play. The core nature of elves combined with this apparent degree of deep seated sense of honor and duty is an extremely powerful force spanning all of elfin history; it should not be underestimated. Let's look at an alternate scenerio which I think ties in somewhat to the more immediate discussion. Let's say Mr. Crouch casually threw a sock aside and it landed in Winky's arms, thereby closely duplicating the circumstances under which Dobby was freed. I think(I speculate) that after an intial very awkward moment, Winky would have simply said, that's OK, I know you didn't mean to free me, so I'll just re-enter your service and we'll go on from there. Having clothes given to her in this accidental circumstance doesn't FORCE Winky to be free. She may techinically be freed, but she isn't truly forced to leave her master's service. They are both perfectly capable and willing to continue their mutual service agreement and most likely would have done just that. Dobby on the other hand wanted freedom but was not willing to dishonor himself sufficiently to gain that freedom, although, in visiting Harry, he was certainly pushing it to a reckless limit. Of course, in Dobby's case, given that nature of Lucius Malfoy, to act in a way that would demand dismissal from service, could have very likely gotten Dobby killed rather that freed. Again, this touches on the subject at hand, we see Dobby recklessly exercising free will, but knowing the potentially dangerous consequences, he is only will to exercise that free will within certain boundaries. I'll end with a caution about too tightly and absolutely comparing human slavery to elfin service (or servitude if you perfer). There are some significant differences. Just a few more thoughts. Steve/bboyminn From buffyeton at yahoo.com Tue May 31 08:18:11 2005 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:18:11 -0000 Subject: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: <000e01c5653f$90eaf730$3e781652@thorburn> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Derek Thorburn" wrote: > >> Gerry: > >> Could you explain to me why you see the Buckbeak incident as > >> a schoolboy thing? For me this incident is so utterly evil. > >> The casual disregard for life and other people's suffering > >> Draco displays here are to me examples of him being really > >> evil. Nothing schoolboy there. > > > > > Sherry now: > > However, for me, the true nasty evil in the Buckbeak > > incident is Draco's desire to hurt Hagrid. He revels in > > Hagrid's pain and grief and makes fun of him over it. > > > As we read 'Prisoner of Azkaban', we note, in Chapter 6, that > Malfoy and his two companions weren't listening when Hagrid > clearly told the two assembled classes that once having received > the return bow, no insult must be levelled at the creatures in question. They were both chatting and, once having received > Malfoy's insult, Buckbeak struck. From the start, Hagrid's > number 1 priority was the safety of his students. Malfoy then > saw Buckbeak's attack as the perfect opportunity to get one back > on Hagrid. I feel he is a malicious character, but we must > remember that the authoress is dealing in these novels with > various situations which do occur at school, eg, bullying, > favouritism shown by teachers, etc. We note that from his first meeting with Harry, Malfoy plainly shows his dislike of Hagrid. > > Derek I feel it is important to remember why Draco dislikes Hagrid so much. It's because he isn't a pureblood. From what we know, which isn't much, Draco only judges people based on their bloodline. I think it is JKR's way of showing that we learn hate and discrimation. If Draco had been raised by different parents, who knows what he would truly be like. Tamara From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 31 08:20:10 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:20:10 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco?/ Snape v Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > Geoff: > Perhaps I need to reiterate from my comments in recent posts that I > am /not/ suggesting that Draco is going to come over to the good > side; what I am saying to those who have written him off as evil is > that the jury is still out. ... > > ...edited... > > Geoff: > What has prompted my thoughts on this is the fact that I believe > many contributors to this group are guilty of holding a double > standard. We are told that Snape is on the side of good; Dumbledore > himself has vouched for his reliability. However, Snape has behaved > equally or more nastily towards pupils than Draco. ... > > However, because the good professor is a supporter of the cause of > good, we are expected to see this as being acceptable behaviour from > him, although perhaps we do so reluctantly. Because Draco is linked > to the Dark side, ..., his attitudes are pilloried as being > unacceptable, evil and dangerous. > > > Alla: > > Ummm, I hope you don't include me in this group of "holding a double > standard" Geoff. :-) > > If I were to grade Draco and Snape's behaviour towards other > students, then absolutely no doubt about it, Snape will take the > first place as much more dangerous, abusive, etc. ... > > BUT when we move from the area of personal relationships into the > area of Dark v Light, then the fact that Snape is on Dumbledore's > side ... starts playing its role. > > ...edited... > > Just my opinion, > > Alla. bboyminn: This ties in with what I said earlier about Draco being at a turning point. It's one thing to sit in your mansion sipping tea and eating cucumber sandwiches with the crust cut off, saying 'pureblood this' and 'pureblood that'. But it's quite another to actually have to face what it means to support and serve Voldemort. So far Draco is all words, he echoes his father rhetoric, he is filled with a sense of self-superiority, he bullies people, and is generally a nasty piece of work. But he has yet to truly join the Dark Side. He is naive enough to still think this is all about Purebloods vs Mixed-Bloods. He has yet to discover that blood means nothing; power and wealth are the controlling factors and blood be damned. Because of this, as Geof said, the jury is still out on Draco. Because the jury is still out, the door is open for redemption. We must agree that it can occur, but we are free to individually decide if it will occur. For a moment, let's discuss the difference between Snape and Draco in metaphorical terms. Snape has traveled down the road to the gates of hell. He has felt the fiery flames lick his face, and he turned away and walked back up the road to join the good side. Draco on the other hand is still on the early stretch of this road, he's not even remotely close to the gates of hell, but he is picking up speed fast. At some point in the future Draco is going to stand at those gates, he is going to be able to see what walking through them means. At that point, he stands on the threshold of Damnation and Redemption, and will have to make a choice. Certainly, as he travels the road, he will face temptations and will commit actions that will speed him on his way. But as I've already said earlier in this thread, Draco has yet to cross the line. I can envision a scenario in which Draco must finally face what it truly means to serve Voldemort, and what being a Death Eater truly entails. I can see him, at that point, bulking and stepping away. In the metaphorical sense, that will be Draco's redemption, but not necessarily in the literal sense. Just because Draco is too big a coward to face the realities of being a Death Eater, doesn't mean he instantly becomes a saint, and stepping away from the Dark Side doesn't necessarily mean joining the good side. Not working /for/ Voldemort doesn't automatically mean working /against/ him and by extension, working for the good side. So, there is plenty of middle ground for Draco. He can be redeemed without becoming either good or nice. Again, the question of Draco's redemption is not whether he joins the good side, or whether he becomes a saint, it's whether, in that last critical dark and dangerous moment, he turns away from the Dark Side. Snape, it seems, has both turned away from the dark side and joined the good side, but Draco doesn't necessarily have to follow that same path. Well, there are my thought, not sure if the help at all. Steve/bboyminn From magistera at gmail.com Tue May 31 08:12:47 2005 From: magistera at gmail.com (magistera_coi) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 08:12:47 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129760 *snipped throughout* TigerPatronus: > US Pb PoA (p361): "Like father, like son, Potter! . . . You'd have > died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken > in Black -- now get out of the way, or I will make you. . . ." -Snape Valky: > First lets draw the picture: James is adamant that Sirius would not > betray him at the moment (or extremely close to the moment) of his death. > > Voldemort kills James in a duel. > > Snape witnesses James unwavering trust in Sirius even when faced with > imminent death and/or James actual death. *delurks* To me, the quote above seems like evidence Snape *wasn't* there, or at least that James didn't say anything much if he were - because presumably James knew who his Secret Keeper was, right? And it wasn't Sirius. Snape, however, apparently believes that it was. I can picture a fairly convoluted scenario wherein Snape/other clueless DE says something like "Black has betrayed you" (not knowing the real identity of the spy, and thinking that Sirius is the logical choice) and James denying that he would, but well...Occam's Razor, and that seems like an unlikely scene to posit. Easier (for me, anyway) to believe that Snape just thinks that James was dumb to pick Sirius as SK, aided by 13 years of hindsight and the fact that he hated them both. -Mags From Aisbelmon at hotmail.com Tue May 31 10:53:35 2005 From: Aisbelmon at hotmail.com (M.Clifford) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 10:53:35 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129762 > TigerPatronus: > > US Pb PoA (p361): "Like father, like son, Potter! . . . You'd have > > died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be > > mistaken in Black -- now get out of the way, or I will make you. . > . ." -Snape > Valky: > > First lets draw the picture: James is adamant that Sirius would > > not betray him at the moment (or extremely close to the moment) of > > his death. > > Voldemort kills James in a duel. > > Snape witnesses James unwavering trust in Sirius even when faced > > with imminent death and/or James actual death. > > > -Mags *delurks*: > To me, the quote above seems like evidence Snape *wasn't* there, or > at least that James didn't say anything much if he were - because > presumably James knew who his Secret Keeper was, right? And it > wasn't Sirius. Snape, however, apparently believes that it was. > > I can picture a fairly convoluted scenario wherein Snape/other > clueless DE says something like "Black has betrayed you" (not > knowing the real identity of the spy, and thinking that Sirius is > the logical choice) and James denying that he would, but > well...Occam's Razor, and that seems like an unlikely scene to > posit. Easier (for me, anyway) to believe that Snape just thinks > that James was dumb to pick Sirius as SK, aided by 13 years of > hindsight and the fact that he hated them both. > Valky: I promised myself I would not do this, and that I would leave this vague, but since someone actually delurked to answer... no actually any excuse will do.. I knew I wouldn't easily resist... I my defense Occams Razor doesn't cut the scenario that you posit Mags IMHO. To be fair the quote does say literally that James *was arrogant* when faced with the notion that Sirius was the spy. The character Snape doesn't like to BS about this situation, if he says he directly observed James arrogant about Sirius at the moment of his death then why question it? And furthermore the oft quoted "I KNOW! Headmaster" that the Potters were indeed betrayed by Black is a giveaway that Snape dealt with Godrics Hollow (at least in his own mind) on a more direct level than other characters did. This does lend weight to the scenario that I have begun to introduce, however I did promise myself I wouldn't defend it... From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue May 31 11:23:27 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:23:27 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129763 > Valky: > I my defense Occams Razor doesn't cut the scenario that you posit Mags > IMHO. To be fair the quote does say literally that James *was > arrogant* when faced with the notion that Sirius was the spy. > The character Snape doesn't like to BS about this situation, if he > says he directly observed James arrogant about Sirius at the moment of > his death then why question it? > > And furthermore the oft quoted "I KNOW! Headmaster" that the Potters > were indeed betrayed by Black is a giveaway that Snape dealt with > Godrics Hollow (at least in his own mind) on a more direct level than > other characters did. This does lend weight to the scenario that I > have begun to introduce, however I did promise myself I wouldn't > defend it... Gerry Let me give an alternative: Snape, as a spy finds out that someone of James friends is the spy, and sold them out. Maybe LV tells it at a meeting or something like that. Snape as a member of the Order 'knows' or assumes that Sirius is the secret keepter. He does not know this is not true. When telling Jamers about Sirius being a traitor and having sold out the location, James is arrogant, because he knows Sirius is no traitor, cannot have sold out the location because he is not the secret keeper. He may suspect for himself that Peter is a traitor, but considering the excellent relations between him and Snape, I can imagine him not telling this to Snape. If this happens in a small enough time-frame, say on the same day, it is too late for James and Lily to do anything and the result is their death. Nobody knowing that it was Peter who was the traitor. The evidence, however, points to Sirius. Gerry From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue May 31 11:27:22 2005 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:27:22 -0000 Subject: The Sacking of Trelawney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" wrote: > > Then we come to the Sacking. No one seems to be the least surprised > that DD was able to replace Trelawney so quickly. Actually within > it seems 5 to 15 minutes of when she was sacked. Now I am sure that > maybe he figured it might happen and had a plan, but even still, his > timing seems impossible. How did he know it was even happening? I > can't imagine that Umbridge gave him any warning that it was going > to happen at all and at that very moment. He would have had to have > had it all planned out with Firenze ahead of time. And what kind of > an agreement would that have been? "Well Firenze, I don't want to > insult you or anything, but just in case my divination teacher is > sacked could you come along and take over?" Somehow I can't see > that type of conversation with a Centaur!! I guess Firenze could > have offered to help in anyway he might be needed whenever DD called > him, but again I can't see that either since he knows the price he > will pay. I would think that it would have taken some time for DD > to discuss it with him and for Firenze to make that type of a > decision. > > We are so taken in by the action that we (or at least I) don't see > the *wait a minute how did that happen?* part of the whole thing. > It just sort of flows and no one in the story even bats an eye. > Just poof DD is there to save the day, just like always. No wizard > can be *that* good. How does he do it? OK, now maybe there are > paintings in the room that Umbridge and Trelawney were in and they > told DD. But even then, it just all happens so fast. Maybe DD uses > a time-turner. But I don't think he does that all the time > either. What is his secret?? > > > This like everything else has probably been discussed before. If so > where? I know that many of us are rereading or re-listening to the > 5th book right now. Does anyone else have any thoughts about this? > > Tonks_op Hickengruendler: Here's my speculation. Umbridge said, that Fudge had to sign the his decision to remove Trelawney. She also said, that this "happened" one hour ago. If one of Dumbledore's spies (possibly an Order member, who knows how important it is to have Trelawney safe in Hogwarts) in the ministry alarmed him at once, he could have enough time to react. The question is, who could have told him? Arthur isn't trusted enough by Fudge, and I don't see why Fudge should consult Tonks or Kingsley, when he wants to sack a teacher. If you believe that Percy is working undercover for the Order, than he's by far the most likely candidate, since he is in the position to her about Fudge's decisions. If not, than we have a few candidates, who are not really likely, but nonetheless possible, to hear about this, (this includes one of the portraits). From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue May 31 11:51:14 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:51:14 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco? (was: Re: Admonishing Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129765 > Geoff: > Bear in mind though that when Draco said this, he was 12. > > I know from my own personal experience and that of dealing with guys > of that age over many years that young gentlemen of 12 can be very > bloodthirsty in their thinking; and they don't always think through > the consequences of what carrying out their fantasies would mean. I have the same experience. Bloodthirsty in their thinking: until something bad actually happens. Then for almost all of them reality kicks in, and they discover there is a big differenct between the talk and the actual result of a classmate, or even someone they don't know being really hurt. What we see with Draco is the exact opposite: Draco's famous words are after the attack on Nearly Headless Nick and Justin Finch-Fletchly. There is a lot of fear in the castle. Does that give him a wake-up call? Does that make him feel that there is a difference between not liking muggle-borns and seeing them coming to harm? No, he likes what is happening. He hopes it will get worse. That is not a boy parroting his daddy's views. That is a boy showing a truly rotten side of himself. As for Snape versus Draco: George: Draco, on the other hand is parroting what he has been told by his family, by friends of the family and also by the attitudes which Snape - someone to whom he apparently looks to as a model - has demonstrated in his sight and hearing. Gerry As far as we know, Snape never shows any anti-muggleborn prejudice. He dislikes his students for themselves, not for their background, except Harry, whom he dislikes because of James, and also for -in Snape's eyes - being like James himself. Snape abuses his power in the class-room, absolutely true, but he never wants any of his students to come to actual physical harm. AND Snape displays personal courage to do the right thing. He did not have to show his Dark Marc to Fudge, yet he did. He did not have to save Harry's life in PS, yet he did. He did not have to warn the Order that Harry thought Sirius was in danger, (and thus saving Harry's life again) yet he did. Draco, on the other hand, uses all the opportunities he has to abuse his power. And does nothing else. Did he have to set up Harry for the midnight duel in PS? No, yet he did. Did he have to give hints that Sirius was responsible for the death of Harry's parents in PoA, goading him to go after Black himself? No, yet he did. Did he have to fake his injury and let his dad use this as evidence against Buckbeak? No, yet he did. Did he have to join the inquisitorial squad, and having joined, did he have to abuse his power? No, yet he did. Mind you, I won't say a thing against Draco for impersonating a dementor (PoA), or for him making the buttons in GoF. These I consider real pranks. Not very nice, the first one absolutely not sporting, but certainly not evil. I don't buy the 'he is only 12 argument.' At twelve, away from his parents, he can think on his own. Lucius certainly will have installed feelings of blood-superiority in him, but relishing in other people's misery is something which comes from Draco's very own emotional make-up. And what we see through the books is that he not only holds to his views, he acts upon them, whenever he gets the chance. That, for me, makes him evil. The combination of his thoughts, feelings AND actions. It is not the big evil that LV is, and the DE's do, but it is a petty evil he displays here. But with the potential and the inclination to move forward to the real thing. And I think there is a much bigger chance that he will like the real thing, than that he will step back and suddenly develop a conscience. Gerry From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue May 31 12:55:11 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 05:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050531125511.49219.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129766 > So if the three of our previous premise are true One of the > following must also be true: Snape was never seen by Voldemort OR > Snape was seen by Voldemort and Snape appeared loyal to him > (possibly even helping him overcome James) > > Before I go on with more question formulating, let me just ask > this. > > Who here thinks Snape hid for his life and who thinks he helped > Voldie kill James? > > Valky I don't believe that Voldemort took anyone with him to GH except Pettigrew, to make sure that Pettigrew was telling the truth about the location of GH and to sadistically rub it in to James that one of his closest friends had turned ("the power of Voldemort knows no limits!"). So Snape would have needed to get the information from Pettigrew if he was at GH before the destruction, and I don't believe that Pettigrew gave it to him or that Voldemort would have allowed it to be given out. Snape's Shrieking Shack comments to Harry about his father don't suggest to me that Snape was present that night. They sound more like someone who is angered that he wasn't believed when he brought word that the Potters' SK had turned traitor. Snape didn't know the SK was Pettigrew; like everyone else who knew about the matter, he assumed it was Sirius. So I think he went to Dumbledore and James and said "Sirius has betrayed you" and James didn't believe it at all and DUmbledore wasn't sure (another reason he didn't lift a finger for Sirius after he was arrested). Magda __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/learn/mail From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue May 31 12:54:52 2005 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:54:52 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129767 > Gerry > > Let me give an alternative: Snape, as a spy finds out that someone of > James friends is the spy, and sold them out. Maybe LV tells it at a > meeting or something like that. Snape as a member of the Order 'knows' > or assumes that Sirius is the secret keepter. He does not know this is > not true. When telling Jamers about Sirius being a traitor and having > sold out the location, James is arrogant, because he knows Sirius is > no traitor, cannot have sold out the location because he is not the > secret keeper. Jen: I can easily picture Snape attempting to save the Potters with his information and James sneering at him, refusing to believe him, slamming the door in his face..... "Like father, like son, Potter! I have just saved your neck; you should be thanking me on bended knee!..." (POA, chap. 19, US) Until this moment I never saw the fly in the ointment, but Snape wouldn't be able to find GH if it's hidden by Fidelius. And if he *did* find GH because Peter disclosed the location to him (by note so Snape doesn't know it's Peter and not Sirisu), when Snape shows up at the Potter's door James would know Peter has betrayed them by revealing the location to Snape. They would have contacted DD and been removed to another location. That was one of my favorite theories, too! The image of Snape attempting to save James' life, resolving his life-debt in the process, only to have James rebuff him and then die on him. Imagine the seething resentment on Snape's part, to be left with the unresolved life-debt because James died "too arrogant to believe {he} might be mistaken in Black -- " (POA, chap. 19) Any way to resolve this SK problem? I can't imagine Snape showing up at GH and James coming to any other conclusion but that Peter betrayed them. Jen From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue May 31 13:08:40 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 06:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050531130841.49810.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129768 > I feel it is important to remember why Draco dislikes Hagrid so > much. It's because he isn't a pureblood. > > Tamara Actually, I think it's because Draco knows that Hagrid is close to Harry (at least in COS and POA). Just like he goes after Ron and Hermione so much. He's trying to get at Harry through his attacks on the people that Harry is close to. The anti-giant angle is just frosting on the cake. Magda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new Resources site http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From vuurdame at xs4all.nl Tue May 31 13:17:40 2005 From: vuurdame at xs4all.nl (festuco) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:17:40 -0000 Subject: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: <20050531130841.49810.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129769 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > The anti-giant angle is just frosting on the cake. That Hagrid is half-giant becomes only known in GoF. Before that there is nothing known about Hagrid's family, so he might as well have been a pure-blood. Gerry From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Tue May 31 13:56:17 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:56:17 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > >Tiger: > > US Pb PoA (p361): "Like father, like son, Potter! . . . You'd have > > died like your father, too arrogant to believe you might be mistaken > > in Black -- now get out of the way, or I will make you. . . ." - Snape > > > Valky: > You know I absolutely agree with you Tiger, I have always thought that > this is the strongest evidence to the theory that Snape was at Godrics > Hollow. Sorry if I stepped on your valkyrian toes, Valky! I had read the original post and am rereading PoA when I came across the quote. It does seem, however, because we arrived at this independently, this theory does hold some H2O. Having read some of the other posts on this topic, it still seems to me that Snape sounds like he was actually there and witnessed James's "arrogance" and his death. That doesn't sound second-hand to me. It sounds like Snape personally witnessed James's unbelief right up until the green light got him. > Who here thinks Snape hid for his life and who thinks he helped > Voldie> kill James?> Valky I think he hid or, at least, his sin was of omission. If he'd've actively helped to murder James, DD would not have forgiven him and accepted his reformation. Some sins are so grievous that they cannot be forgiven. That would be one of them. I notice that JKR uses "murder" in the books where I wouldn've chosen the word "kill", as in above. I wonder whether that is authorial word choice or a Britishism. Any of the Brits out there know? TK -- TigerPatronus From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Tue May 31 14:03:28 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:03:28 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: <20050531125511.49219.qmail@web53108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129772 > > > > Who here thinks Snape hid for his life and who thinks he helped > > Voldie kill James? > > > > Valky > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Magda Grantwich wrote: > So I think [Snape] went to Dumbledore and James and said "Sirius has > betrayed you" and James didn't believe it at all and DUmbledore > wasn't sure (another reason he didn't lift a finger for Sirius after > he was arrested).> Magda > Of course, the conversation might have gone like this: SS: Sirius Black has betrayed you! JP: Nuh-uh! Sirius Black can't betray us! He's not even the SK, you greasy-haired dumb-[butt]! Or something like that. The point was that Snape told James that he had been betrayed, and James retorted that Sirius couldn't betray them. Perhaps a classic case of talking past each other. TK -- TigerPatronus From spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com Tue May 31 14:04:05 2005 From: spotthedungbeetle at hotmail.com (dungrollin) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:04:05 -0000 Subject: FILK: Basilisky Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129773 This is dedicated to (or rather blamed upon) Siriusly Snapey Susan, since she *will* keep encouraging me. (Sorry that it's not a funny one.) "Basilisky" (based on "Jabberwocky", by Lewis Carroll) 'Twas stygian and the rodent skulls Did crunch and crimple 'neath his feet, Vile witness to vast vermin culls, And the snakeskin complete. "Beware the Basilisk my son Mesmeric stare and mortal fang, Beware The Diary and shun The odious Slytherin gang." He took his Holly wand in hand Long time the mucid duct he crept, And so came he to the grand entry Unlatched by the adept. And there the villain, poised, unmasked, And basilisk with scratched-out eyes Gave chase; the hat - our boy aghast - A sword served of stout size. The monster dead; by Phoenix healed, He plucked the fang, ran't through and through The Diary - razed the memory, Thus saved the damsel too. "And hast thou slain the Basilisk?" "Delivered Ginny!" (Molly's squawks) "Well done my son, you justly won." He beamed, reclaiming Fawkes. 'Twas stygian and the rodent skulls Did crunch and crimple 'neath his feet, Vile witness to past vermin culls And the snake's fate complete. Apologies, I said I'd never do it again, I honestly thought I'd only ever write one FILK. Turns out it's addictive. *Just say no*. Is there a support group I can join...? Dungrollin From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue May 31 14:45:27 2005 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:45:27 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Any way to resolve this SK problem? I can't imagine Snape showing up at GH and James coming to any other conclusion but that Peter betrayed them. > Pippin: Sure. Snape shows up at the Potters' _before_ the spell is activated. Remember the spell takes time to set up and there was a period of debate about who the SK should be; Dumbledore offered to do it but James insisted on Sirius. So Snape, at great personal risk, shows up on James's doorstep and says, "Don't choose Sirius, he's the spy." James tells him to get lost. This accounts for Snape's furious refusal to consider that there could have been a switch. That last thing he wants to believe is that James did listen to him after all, made Peter the secret-keeper, and died for it. As for how Dumbledore knew what went down at GH, I have a feeling that Nicholas Flammel (who better?) instructed both DD and Lily in ancient magic and that Dumbledore knew that Lily was prepared to die to save Harry. Perhaps those little silver instruments were able to confirm the blood protection. Pippin From tigerpatronus at yahoo.com Tue May 31 15:00:36 2005 From: tigerpatronus at yahoo.com (tigerpatronus) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:00:36 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: Dumbledore knew that > Lily was prepared to die to save Harry. Perhaps those little > silver instruments were able to confirm the blood protection. > Pippin Or, perhaps the fact that Harry survived with an unusual scar, Lily didn't, and LV is suddenly gone (and all the Dark Marks, including Snape's, have faded) was enough for DD to deduce it. Or, maybe DD legilimensed (or whatever the past tense of the verbification is) Harry and saw *through* Harry to LV's mind, which was now "less than the meanest ghost," maybe from that DD could deduce what had happened. Interesting, that. If DD has indeed been legilimensing Harry throughout the books (and I just reread 1-3 and there are a number of "penetrating stares," several per book) and Harry has a "window to LV's mind," as per the recent JKR spoiler on the website, can DD legilimens all the way to LV, and has he been doing that all this time? TK -- TigerPatronus TK -- TigerPatronus From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue May 31 15:30:43 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:30:43 -0000 Subject: The Sacking of Trelawney In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129776 Tonks wrote: > > Then we come to the Sacking. No one seems to be the least > surprised > > that DD was able to replace Trelawney so quickly. Actually within > > it seems 5 to 15 minutes of when she was sacked. Now I am sure > that > > maybe he figured it might happen and had a plan, but even still, > his > > timing seems impossible. How did he know it was even happening? Inkling sez: Didn't Dumbledore once say -- paraphrasing here, sorry, I can't remember the exact quote or which book it was in -- words to this effect: "I don't need a cloak to become invisible." This might explain his uncanny knowledge of a lot of things. From caesian at yahoo.com Tue May 31 15:38:23 2005 From: caesian at yahoo.com (caesian) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:38:23 -0000 Subject: Mystified by the new JKR FAQ Poll! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129777 These days, it seems that I simply enjoy reading the messages and theories of others, and only post when I am absolutely gob-smacked by something Potter-related. Or perhaps rather Potter-fan-related. Can 56% of Potter fans really be wrong? Perhaps someone here at HPfGUs can help me out. Mugglenet (What? I only read it for the caption contest...) alerted me that new FAQ poll questions have been put up at JKRowling.com. Here are the new questions: - Will Harry continue to learn Occlumency, whether with Snape or somebody else, in 'Half-Blood Prince'? (32% of votes) - Is that the Pensieve on the U.S. cover, or something else? (11%) - So how DO the members of the Order of the Phoenix communicate with each other? (56%) Here is my question: What is wrong with this picture!!! Who cares about the details of the communication by members of the Order?! OK - I do. But not as much as hearing JKR's comments on Occlumency. With potential for explanations - as in WHY yes or no. And if no, what has changed? I.e., what was the point to begin with? Plus, when does she EVER offer to talk about Snape. And we already KNOW how members of the Order communicate: via that silver bird-looking (i.e. Pheonix-looking - as in Order of the Pheonix) stuff that Dumbledore sent from his wand to summon Hagrid - remember? When he and Harry discovered the stunned Victor Krum in GoF? So, we already know. Please, for the love of - something - can someone explain this to me? Or, at least, go vote for the Occlumency question? Clearly over-reacting, Ceasia From luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca Tue May 31 16:17:08 2005 From: luckdragon64 at yahoo.ca (Bee Chase) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 12:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mystified by the new JKR FAQ Poll! In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050531161709.42964.qmail@web53305.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129778 caesian wrote: These days, it seems that I simply enjoy reading the messages and theories of others, and only post when I am absolutely gob-smacked by something Potter-related. Or perhaps rather Potter-fan-related. Can 56% of Potter fans really be wrong? Perhaps someone here at HPfGUs can help me out. Mugglenet (What? I only read it for the caption contest...) alerted me that new FAQ poll questions have been put up at JKRowling.com. Here are the new questions: - Will Harry continue to learn Occlumency, whether with Snape or somebody else, in 'Half-Blood Prince'? (32% of votes) - Is that the Pensieve on the U.S. cover, or something else? (11%) - So how DO the members of the Order of the Phoenix communicate with each other? (56%) Here is my question: What is wrong with this picture!!! Who cares about the details of the communication by members of the Order?! OK - I do. But not as much as hearing JKR's comments on Occlumency. With potential for explanations - as in WHY yes or no. And if no, what has changed? I.e., what was the point to begin with? Plus, when does she EVER offer to talk about Snape. And we already KNOW how members of the Order communicate: via that silver bird-looking (i.e. Pheonix-looking - as in Order of the Pheonix) stuff that Dumbledore sent from his wand to summon Hagrid - remember? When he and Harry discovered the stunned Victor Krum in GoF? So, we already know. Please, for the love of - something - can someone explain this to me? Or, at least, go vote for the Occlumency question? Clearly over-reacting, Ceasia Luckdragon I think there is more to the communication thing than we think and JKR generally takes 3 or more months to answer tha FAQ poll. The book will be out in about 6 weeks which means most of us will know the first 2 poll question answers before the poll is likely answered. Does this make sense? Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin_Files/hbfile.html Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! --------------------------------- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: HPforGrownups-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com Tue May 31 16:33:37 2005 From: antoshachekhonte at yahoo.com (antoshachekhonte) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:33:37 -0000 Subject: Mystified by the new JKR FAQ Poll! In-Reply-To: <20050531161709.42964.qmail@web53305.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129779 > What is wrong with this picture!!! Who cares about the details of the > communication by members of the Order?! OK - I do. But not as much > as hearing JKR's comments on Occlumency. With potential for > explanations - as in WHY yes or no. And if no, what has changed? > I.e., what was the point to begin with? Plus, when does she EVER > offer to talk about Snape. > > And we already KNOW how members of the Order communicate: via that > silver bird-looking (i.e. Pheonix-looking - as in Order of the > Pheonix) stuff that Dumbledore sent from his wand to summon Hagrid - > remember? When he and Harry discovered the stunned Victor Krum in > GoF? So, we already know. > > Please, for the love of - something - can someone explain this to me? > Or, at least, go vote for the Occlumency question? > > Clearly over-reacting, > Ceasia > > Luckdragon > > I think there is more to the communication thing than we think and JKR generally takes 3 or more months to answer tha FAQ poll. The book will be out in about 6 weeks which means most of us will know the first 2 poll question answers before the poll is likely answered. Does this make sense? > > Antosha: Actually, I suppose it does. The interesting thing to me is that she bothered to post a new poll at all. None of the questions are THAT intriguing--the Occlumency one tickles my fancy a bit, but not more than that--and all of them will simply be answered by reading the book. I'm sure we'll be getting quite a bit of info on the mechanics of the Order's operations in HBP. I think she will almost certainly answer this question more quickly than the last--she can be excused, since finishing a novel and birthing a baby will tend to take a bit out of one. So I'd bet we see this poll closed and an answer posted by early July. Not that I would mind if she were to get started on book seven instead.... From elsyee_h at yahoo.com Tue May 31 16:48:40 2005 From: elsyee_h at yahoo.com (Tammy) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:48:40 -0000 Subject: Mystified by the new JKR FAQ Poll! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129780 >caesian wrote: > These days, it seems that I simply enjoy reading the messages and > theories of others, and only post when I am absolutely gob-smacked > by something Potter-related. Or perhaps rather Potter-fan-related. > Can 56% of Potter fans really be wrong? Perhaps someone here at > HPfGUs can help me out. > Here are the new questions: > > - Will Harry continue to learn Occlumency, whether with Snape or > somebody else, in 'Half-Blood Prince'? (32% of votes) > > - Is that the Pensieve on the U.S. cover, or something else? (11%) > > - So how DO the members of the Order of the Phoenix communicate with > each other? (56%) > > Here is my question: > > What is wrong with this picture!!! Who cares about the details of the > communication by members of the Order?! OK - I do. But not as much > as hearing JKR's comments on Occlumency. With potential for > explanations - as in WHY yes or no. And if no, what has changed? > I.e., what was the point to begin with? Plus, when does she EVER > offer to talk about Snape. > > And we already KNOW how members of the Order communicate: via that > silver bird-looking (i.e. Pheonix-looking - as in Order of the > Pheonix) stuff that Dumbledore sent from his wand to summon Hagrid - > remember? When he and Harry discovered the stunned Victor Krum in > GoF? So, we already know. > > Please, for the love of - something - can someone explain this to me? > Or, at least, go vote for the Occlumency question? > > Clearly over-reacting, > Ceasia Tammy: I voted for the communication question. Obviously I can't explain everyone's reasoning, but I can tell you mine. The first question will obviously be answered simply by reading HBP. It seems to be a standard question, and while I want to understand Occlumency more, that is NOT what the question is about. The chances of her adding that info seem rather slim. As for question 2, it seems rather obvious that it's a pensieve to me, but beyond that it too will most definitely be answered by reading HBP. If it's not a pensieve, we'll find that out soon too. Beyond that, the answer to this question would probably end up torturing us more than helping us, as mean ol' JKR will come up with some sort of elusive answer. I therefore took communication, partly because it was the only one left. But it's also the one question of the three that isn't a certainty to be answered in HBP. She could leave that hanging again (hey, if it is the silver bird thingy, we found out about it in GOF and still don't fully have an answer - she could have deemed it one of those things to not explain in the book.). I also want to know other things about the communication. How long does it take for the communication to go through? Is it instant or does it take a bit? Who all communicates that way, is it just the higher members or everyone? -Tammy From magistera at gmail.com Tue May 31 11:21:10 2005 From: magistera at gmail.com (magistera_coi) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:21:10 -0000 Subject: The answer to the riddle -- whosawit? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129781 > Valky: > > I my defense Occams Razor doesn't cut the scenario that you posit > Mags, IMHO. To be fair the quote does say literally that James > *was arrogant* when faced with the notion that Sirius was the spy. > The character Snape doesn't like to BS about this situation, if > he says he directly observed James arrogant about Sirius at the > moment of his death then why question it? Hmm. That's not exactly what it says to my reading, simply because *Sirius was not the spy*. So whatever else may have happened, Snape was not "on the inside" to the extent that he knew who the spy was. Otherwise, he'd know that Sirius wasn't the one who betrayed James, rendering moot to my mind the statement that James was "arrogant" to believe that Sirius wouldn't betray him (because, of course, he didn't). To me the statement reads like pure hindsight filtered by malice: Your father was too stupid to see that Black would betray him (when he patently didn't, in the end), and just like James died, you will too. Why would James have been arrogant about the fact that Sirius would never betray him, when faced with Peter's betrayal? That's what trips me up. Give me a believable scenario, and I'll be all over it. :P -Mags From LilHogan at aol.com Tue May 31 15:59:45 2005 From: LilHogan at aol.com (lilhogan86) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 15:59:45 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129782 Hopefully this hasn't been discussed too much here as I just joined recently...I'm sure it has, but I'm curious anyway. sunnylove0 quotes JKR's website: "As in the case of Dean Thomas, I know much more about Theodore Nott than has ever appeared in the books. Raised by a very elderly widower and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's." I tend to overlook important things, but offhand I can't think of anyone in the WW dying young _not_ due to being cursed or some magic gone wrong. I think that the majority of characters (especially parents of Hogwarts students) who have died, died somehow related to the DEs or LV. I guess that the fact JKR said "very elderly widower" leans towards Nott having an older mother as well, but I'm also not sure if women in the WW can have children at an older age. This leaves me wondering how T. Nott's mother died--whether it was through something related to LV/DE (which would maybe explain him ending up to be the "Good Slytherin", but I can't imagine him living with his DE father in that case). Otherwise, do we know specifically what other things people in the WW can die from? Accidents? Hexes? Falling off a broomstick? lilhogan/Lauren, hoping her first post wasn't completely confusing and not a topic beaten to death before she arrived to this forum From sro35 at webtv.net Tue May 31 17:07:20 2005 From: sro35 at webtv.net (sro35 at webtv.net) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 13:07:20 -0400 Subject: Half Blood, Pure Blood--Help Pease In-Reply-To: HPforGrownups@yahoogroups.com's message of 26 May 2005 11:11:16 -0000 Message-ID: <29873-429C99C8-1040@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net> No: HPFGUIDX 129783 I do not understand what makes a person half blood. In OOTP, DD tells Harry that Voldemort chose him, the half blood, and not Neville, the pure blood. What makes Harry a half blood? Both of Harry's parents were magical, doesn't that make him pure blood? Does Lily coming from a Muggle family change it? If so, why? Thanks in advance for your help....Stan (anxiously waiting for July 16) From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue May 31 18:00:16 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:00:16 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129784 LilHogan wrote: > Hopefully this hasn't been discussed too much here as I just joined > recently...I'm sure it has, but I'm curious anyway. > > sunnylove0 quotes JKR's website: > "As in the case of Dean Thomas, I know much more about Theodore Nott > than has ever appeared in the books. Raised by a very elderly widower > and Death Eater father, Theodore is a clever loner who does not feel > the need to join gangs, including Malfoy's." > > I tend to overlook important things, but offhand I can't think of > anyone in the WW dying young _not_ due to being cursed or some > magic gone wrong. I think that the majority of characters > (especially parents of Hogwarts students) who have died, died > somehow related to the DEs or LV. > > I guess that the fact JKR said "very elderly widower" leans towards > Nott having an older mother as well, but I'm also not sure if women > in the WW can have children at an older age. This leaves me > wondering how T. Nott's mother died--whether it was through > something related to LV/DE (which would maybe explain him ending up > to be the "Good Slytherin", but I can't imagine him living with his > DE father in that case). Otherwise, do we know specifically what > other things people in the WW can die from? Accidents? Hexes? Falling off a broomstick? > > lilhogan/Lauren, hoping her first post wasn't completely confusing > and not a topic beaten to death before she arrived to this forum Hello Lauren, don't worry about topics getting beaten to death on this list, they always seem to rise again for another round :-) I've also wondered about Wizard vs. human mortality. Specifically, I wonder how Voldy's mother could have died in childbirth given the competence of wizard medical care -- Madame Pomfrey who can fix just about anything, the mediwizards of St. Mungo's who view muggle doctors as primitive practitioners. Seeing the new Star Wars film in which there is a similar seemingly preventable death made me wonder if the psychological state of Tom Riddle's mother had something to do with her death, or whether she was for some reason estranged from the Wizarding World and unable to get help in time? Since there was apparantly no wizarding family to take the child and save it from a muggle orphanage, perhaps she was in a state of total isolation. Still it seems bizarre that a witch would die in childbirth when it so rarely happens even in the muggle world these days. Inkling From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 31 18:02:43 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:02:43 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129785 > Kristen: > Interesting discussion hope you don't mind me jumping in with my 2 > cents. > > First, while I agree that to the owner of slaves; the salves are > demoted from beings to things. However in the real world I cannot > make the stretch to believe that all slaves think of themselves as a > thing. Full disclosure :-) My favorite quote is from Eleanor > Roosevelt "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." > And as you'll see by the rest of my post I put a lot of stock in that > belief. > > So it is no surprise that I would also disagree that slaves cannot > have dignity and integrity. IMO Dignity is a state of worth/esteem > and respect that you give yourself; and integrity is acting in > accordance with your values. Therefore, if you respect yourself and > act in accordance with your values you can have dignity and integrity > even if other don't give it to you. > > Last I maybe reading into your argument something you did not intend > but it seems that you are making an assumption that slaves lack free > will. And IMO all people (slaves and those who are "free") have > free will. Now I am sure I will get a lot of disagreement to that > statement so let me make a preemptive strike and say that I will also > argue that if you are a slave the choice to act in a manner that is > consistent with your values (e.g. with honor and integrity) is most > likely much much harder than a person who is free. But I still > believe they have a choice. > You seem to imply that honour, integrity, values etc. is something inherent to human (or elfish as the case may be) beings. Well, they are not. They are culturally constructed concepts and they are nurtured. You may be by nature calm, bad-tempered, kind, cruel etc. but you, even if you are free modern human being, can't be dignified or honourable by nature. This is something you learn to be in the course of your life and education. Draco can be naturally arrogant and even cruel, but he cannot be "naturally" prejudiced against muggles. This is something he has learned. Hermione can be naturally kind-hearted and brave, but she cannot be "naturally principled". She must have acquired these principles together with the knowledge of alphabet and numbers. Suppose you were captured and made slave (which God forbid, of course). You would try to preserve your dignity; you would cling to that quote from Eleanor Roosevelt, you would remind yourself that so long as you have you free will your spirit is not broken. But suppose you were born slave? More importantly, raised as one? Suppose you never heard of dignity much less of Eleanor Roosevelt? Suppose you grew up among other poor wretches and were taught since when you could remember that you are lowly sort? That you are by nature slave? That God himself ordained it so that you and all your kin exist only for a purpose to serve your masters? You'd have to possess a really exceptional personality to withstand the pressure of convention, I am afraid. Dobby has, but then he *is* exceptional (or a weirdo, depends on one's point of view). As for honour or justice ? it's simply mockery to apply these terms to slaves. Honour implies superiority both moral and social. Justice implies authority both in terms morality and in terms of power. Slaves are inferior (socially and according to convention "naturally") and subject to their masters' authority. a_svirn From horridporrid03 at yahoo.com Tue May 31 18:04:03 2005 From: horridporrid03 at yahoo.com (horridporrid03) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 18:04:03 -0000 Subject: Draco and Hagrid (was:Re: More-More Thoughts about Draco) In-Reply-To: <20050531130841.49810.qmail@web53101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129786 >>Tamara: >I feel it is important to remember why Draco dislikes Hagrid so much. It's because he isn't a pureblood.< >>Magda: >Actually, I think it's because Draco knows that Hagrid is close to Harry (at least in COS and POA). Just like he goes after Ron and Hermione so much. He's trying to get at Harry through his attacks on the people that Harry is close to. >The anti-giant angle is just frosting on the cake.< >>Gerry: >That Hagrid is half-giant becomes only known in GoF. Before that there is nothing known about Hagrid's family, so he might as well have been a pure-blood. Betsy: It's also important to remember that Hagrid is on record as not liking Slytherins. Kids *can* pick up that they're not liked, so that could also have something to do with the Slytherins (and Draco) not liking Hagrid. Draco has also heard tales about Hagrid at home - his drinking, etc. So he went into Hogwarts predisposed to not liking him. Also, as far as Hagrid the teacher, I think Harry, Ron and Hermione are the only students who actually like him as a teacher. Luna makes clear in OotP that the Ravenclaws don't think much of him. And don't some of the Gryffindor's express relief when they realize they've got a substitute in OotP? (I seem to recall Harry going all cold and angry when someone in his House expresses relief, but I'm away from my books.) Betsy From mgrantwich at yahoo.com Tue May 31 18:11:39 2005 From: mgrantwich at yahoo.com (Magda Grantwich) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 11:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco and Hagrid (was:Re: More-More Thoughts about Draco) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050531181139.67931.qmail@web53107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129787 >Magda: >Actually, I think it's because Draco knows that Hagrid is close to > Harry (at least in COS and POA). Just like he goes after Ron and > Hermione so much. He's trying to get at Harry through his attacks > on the people that Harry is close to. > >The anti-giant angle is just frosting on the cake.< > > >>Gerry: > That Hagrid is half-giant becomes only known in GoF. Before that > there is nothing known about Hagrid's family, so he might as well > have been a pure-blood. In PS/SS, Draco makes some demeaning comments about Hagrid being an oaf who gets drunk a lot and almost sets fire to his bed (or something; not an exact quote). Harry coldly defends him ("I think he's brilliant") and thus indicates his pro-Hagrid feelings. My point was that Draco goes after people because Harry likes them; it's a way of jabbing at Harry. Magda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From happydogue at aol.com Tue May 31 18:21:41 2005 From: happydogue at aol.com (happydogue at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:21:41 -0400 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8C73424BA00F334-CF8-45AA4@FWM-R40.sysops.aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129788 Tom Riddle was not born in "these days" If you look back to the '20's '30's and '40's there were still plenty of babies born in the home. (I have a friend born in the late '50's who was born in the front bedroom of her grandmother's house with no doctor). Even babies born in the hospital during these times with any medical complications or moms with complications were at risk. Just walk through the "baby section" at your local cemetery and you will see plenty of baby graves from this time period. The wizarding world is a magical place but there are plenty of things that can kill people just like in our world. Sudden infections, complications from illnesses, heart attack, accidents, suicide, murder. Those in the wizarding world would be subject to other maladies as the rest of us with human bodies such as stroke, high cholesterol , illness due to tobacco or alcohol abuse etc. No one has ever said that the staff at St. Mungo?s can bring people back from the dead JMM [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From BrwNeil at aol.com Tue May 31 18:35:52 2005 From: BrwNeil at aol.com (BrwNeil at aol.com) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 14:35:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Blood, Pure Blood--Help Pease Message-ID: <77.46894205.2fce0888@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129789 In a message dated 5/31/2005 1:46:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, sro35 at webtv.net writes: >I do not understand what makes a person half blood. In OOTP, DD >tells Harry that Voldemort chose him, the half blood, and not >Neville, the pure blood. What makes Harry a half blood? >Both of Harry's parents were magical, doesn't that make him pure >blood? Does Lily coming from a Muggle family change it? If so, >why? >Thanks in advance for your help....Stan (anxiously waiting for >July 16) The term half blood is very misleading because by JKR's definition it has nothing to do with half blood. It does not mean one parent magical and the other muggle. It means having a muggle anywhere in you ancestry. A muggle born or mudblood comes from a family which before now has not had a witch or a wizard in their ancestry. A prue blood comes from a family that has never married outside of the wizard world. Their blood is 'pure' wizard back as far as history can trace. Anyone else is a half blood. Example: Harry's dad might have been a pure blood, but once he married Lily, a muggle born, all decendants will be consider half blood forever more Neil [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 31 19:16:35 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:16:35 -0000 Subject: Half Blood, Pure Blood--Help Pease In-Reply-To: <29873-429C99C8-1040@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sro35 at w... wrote: > I do not understand what makes a person half blood. In OOTP, DD > tells Harry that Voldemort chose him, the half blood, and not > Neville, the pure blood. What makes Harry a half blood? > > Both of Harry's parents were magical, doesn't that make him pure > blood? Does Lily coming from a Muggle family change it? If so, > why? > > Thanks in advance for your help....Stan (anxiously waiting for > July 16) Geoff: Adding another sentence to Neil's reply (129789), JKR has a small section on her site under the FAQs about "half-bloods" etc. which might cast a little more light. From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue May 31 19:13:22 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:13:22 -0000 Subject: You had me going there/ How did DD know beforehand? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129791 > **Marcela asks: That still doesn't answer tinglinger's question... > How did Dumbledore know that Lily had "unwittingly" -like Voldy said > in the Graveyard scene in GoF- activated an ancient blood protective > charm? If Dumbledore performed the Legilimency on baby Harry when > Hagrid brought him back, then why was he already at the Dursleys? > Chys: I reread that scene and I don't see how he could have done that legilimency on Harry at any point in time to make any difference and when he could have, he'd stepped back already to be with Hagrid and Minerva when his twinkle thing died out. *sigh* I think we're just dangling on the missing time. Does JKR even know there's missing time? *could have been a typo in the frenzy of writing. Hm. Probably not. She's too smart for that.* It makes it sound as if DD hasn't been in contact with Hagrid -or- Harry since before the incident in GH so if he did his legilimency to check what happened so suddenly with Lily/LV at GH, he had to have done it in the few seconds while he was holding Harry at the Dursley's doorstep- AFTER they'd already decided to leave him there because of the blood protection, thus that couldn't have been how he'd acquired that information. If she had 'unwittingly' done it, then we're missing something and assuming that DD knew it from legilimency in that way is just wrong wrong, sounding so wrong. Something ain't adding up. Chys From dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com Tue May 31 19:20:30 2005 From: dc.thorburn at ntlworld.com (Derek Thorburn) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:20:30 +0100 Subject: Quidditch and Firebolt Message-ID: <001701c56615$d0bd4b20$3e781652@thorburn> No: HPFGUIDX 129792 As a blind person and great fan of the books, I have just finished listening to 'OOTP' for the third time (I managed to get it with my Christmas money) and am asking myself whether Harry will get his Firebolt back in the next book and also permission to compete in Quidditch once again. The last reference to his broom we had was in Chapter 32 when Umbridge told him it was still in the dungeons, where it had been moved after Fred and George's escape. Jinny assured Harry that, the way she saw it, his ban from Quidditch was only whilst Umbridge was at the school. Derek From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 31 19:34:25 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:34:25 -0000 Subject: Does JKR want us to hate Draco?/ Snape v Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboyminn: > I can envision a scenario in which Draco must finally face what it > truly means to serve Voldemort, and what being a Death Eater truly > entails. I can see him, at that point, bulking and stepping away. In > the metaphorical sense, that will be Draco's redemption, but not > necessarily in the literal sense. Just because Draco is too big a > coward to face the realities of being a Death Eater, doesn't mean he > instantly becomes a saint, and stepping away from the Dark Side > doesn't necessarily mean joining the good side. Not working /for/ > Voldemort doesn't automatically mean working /against/ him and by > extension, working for the good side. > > So, there is plenty of middle ground for Draco. He can be redeemed > without becoming either good or nice. Again, the question of Draco's > redemption is not whether he joins the good side, or whether he > becomes a saint, it's whether, in that last critical dark and > dangerous moment, he turns away from the Dark Side. > > Snape, it seems, has both turned away from the dark side and joined > the good side, but Draco doesn't necessarily have to follow that same > path. Geoff: Thanks, Steve, for a very thought-provoking post. In some ways, this underlines my comment about double standards. Snape has turned away from the gates of hell and walked back. But, to echo your post, it doesn't mean he instantly became a saint. Far from it! This is a parallel of the real world where Christians figuratively walk to the gates of hell before they turn back along the road to salvation; and yet we are not saints in the secular sense of the word. We all have baggage to shed and spend a lifetime learning how to live the life we should be living. So, Draco may find himself at the gates and may turn back. Thus may we see another Snape in the making for I see the latter as a possible Draco but several years further down the road. In such a scenario, we could post pictures of Draco and Snape labelled "Before" and "After". :-) From inkling108 at yahoo.com Tue May 31 19:52:47 2005 From: inkling108 at yahoo.com (inkling108) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:52:47 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: <8C73424BA00F334-CF8-45AA4@FWM-R40.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, happydogue at a... wrote: > Tom Riddle was not born in "these days" If you look back to the '20's '30's and '40's there were still plenty of babies born in the home. (I have a friend born in the late '50's who was born in the front bedroom of her grandmother's house with no doctor). Even babies born in the hospital during these times with any medical complications or moms with complications were at risk. Just walk through the "baby section" at your local cemetery and you will see plenty of baby graves from this time period. Inkling now: Let me clarify -- my impression (maybe it's just me) from the books has been that the wizarding world considers itself way ahead of the muggle world and regards muggle advances in medicine and technology as pitiful (Lucius Malfoy) or ingenious (Arthur Weasley) attempts to compensate for the muggle lack of magic. For example, a jetliner would be seen as a poor substitute for apparating. So I was assuming that the Wizarding World would long ago have worked out a magical way to prevent women dying in childbirth, and that the muggle world had only recently begun to catch up. Most deaths in childbirth in the old days were caused by either infection or hemorrhage and both of these conditions would seem fairly straightforward and easy to treat if you had access to magic (not that I know, but it just seems like that would be the case given the tone of the books, and the kinds of things Madame Pomfrey does as a matter of course, like growing back bones. Happydogue: > The wizarding world is a magical place but there are plenty of things that can kill people just like in our world. Sudden infections, complications from illnesses, heart attack, accidents, suicide, murder. Those in the wizarding world would be subject to other maladies as the rest of us with human bodies such as stroke, high cholesterol , illness due to tobacco or alcohol abuse etc. No one has ever said that the staff at St. Mungo???s can bring people back from the dead Inkling: No, of course not, but again, speaking just for myself, I'd be surprised if a mediwizard even in the 20's and 30's could not prevent death from happening in the first place, especially in the case of childbirth. Also, you never do hear of wizards with cancer, stroke or heart disease, do you? I can't recall any instamces of wizard's suffering from these common muggle complaints. Inkling (in a rush, must get son to Kung Fu class) From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Tue May 31 20:24:03 2005 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Richard Jones) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:24:03 -0000 Subject: Most premature question of the year: So when is Book 7 coming out? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129795 My reasoning is this: it takes JKR two or three years to finish a book. So she should be done with Book 7 sometime between Summer 2007 and Summer 2008. But there are two things that will effect when Book 7 is actually released. First, JKR might get done faster than usual since she knows what she is going to say and may want to get it over with so that she can start her post-HP writing. (On the other hand, she may be reluctant to finally end what has to be the greatest professional experience of her life-time and so she may revise the manuscript over and over and therefore not be done until later.) Second, her publishers and Warner Brothers will probably want to coordinate the publishing with the release the movies so that a movie and the book don't come out at the same time ? I think they will them want to come out at different times so that we won't split our focus and they won't have competing advertising campaigns. The HP movies take about 18 months to complete ? so the OOTP movie should come out in Summer 2007 and HBP in Winter 2008. So I'm thinking the release of Book 7 should be well after the OOTP movie and well before the HBP movie. So putting this all together, if JKR does finish Book 7 within the next two years, I bet Book 7 comes out either at the Winter Solstice in 2007 or at the Summer Solstice 2008. So we have a long wait to get pondering the final outcome. Richard Jones From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue May 31 21:22:00 2005 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:22:00 -0000 Subject: Most premature question of the year: So when is Book 7 coming out? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard Jones" wrote: Richard: > My reasoning is this: it takes JKR two or three years to finish a > book. So she should be done with Book 7 sometime between Summer 2007 > and Summer 2008. Geoff: That doesn't correlate strictly with the publishing history. The interval has got longer with the later books: Philosopher's Stone 1997 Chamber of Secrets 1998 Prisoner of Azkaban 1999 Goblet of Fire 2000 Order of the Phoenix 2003 Half-Blood Prince 2005 From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Tue May 31 21:23:00 2005 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:23:00 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "inkling108" wrote: > Also, you never do hear of wizards with cancer, stroke or heart > disease, do you? I can't recall any instamces of wizard's suffering > from these common muggle complaints. "K": Bookshelf December 2002 Rowling says she would be happy with any advance the group manages to make. For her part, she will continue campaigning. Given her commitment to awareness-raising, she might be expected to try and write a character with the disease into one of her multimillion- selling Harry Potter novels. Well, it's not quite as simple as that. As Rowling explains: "One problem with the world of Hogwarts - or not, depending on how you look at it - is that, being wizards, they tend not to have to suffer what the rest of us do. I spent ages working out what magic could and couldn't do with regard to illness and decided that normal human ailments - such as MS - could be cured. It's a bit harder in the real world, but we're going to see what we can do up in Aberdeen. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2002/1202- bookshelf-mcquillan.html From bob.oliver at cox.net Tue May 31 21:53:47 2005 From: bob.oliver at cox.net (lupinlore) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:53:47 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129798 In a recent statement, JKR said that she felt better about HBP than any book since PoA. She also said, however, that "some won't like it." That statement is vague enough to mean anything and nothing. But what do you speculate she might mean (and of course understanding that at this point it IS pure speculation)? I, personally, think she might have been giving a nod to the fact that the fandom is so deeply divided on some issues that no matter what she says she's going to make some segment or faction severely displeased. However, to give a more specific answer, I wonder about Harry's behavior and attitude in HBP. JKR said that Harry must "master his feelings" in HBP, but I think a lot of people in the fandom may be reading too much into that. Many seem to think it means that relatively soon in HBP Harry will "buck up" and "stop whining" and "get to work" and we'll have something like the old Harry back again. I wonder if that is what she means at all. Mastering one's feelings doesn't necessarily mean having a good attitude (look at Snape, who's supposedly a master Occlumens). Nor does she say that Harry will accomplish that goal quickly and easily. I suspect that JKR was taken aback by the deep dislike many fans expressed toward Angry!Harry in OOTP. Indeed, it is the main complaint one reads on fan sites about OOTP. This may (and I am completely speculating here) be her acknowledgment that HBP!Harry will still not be to many fans liking. Lupinlore From k.coble at comcast.net Tue May 31 21:59:58 2005 From: k.coble at comcast.net (Katherine Coble) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 16:59:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129799 On May 31, 2005, at 1:02 PM, a_svirn wrote: > > As for honour or justice ? it's simply mockery to apply these terms > to slaves. Honour implies superiority both moral and social. Justice > implies authority both in terms morality and in terms of power. > Slaves are inferior (socially and according to > convention "naturally") and subject to their masters' authority. > > a_svirn > K: You're kidding, right? Really....seriously. You have to be kidding here. My dictionary gives one definition of honor as: a Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity. I believe you may be inferring a different meaning for "honour", which is understandable. It is a many-faceted word. But personal integrity is _not_ something that a slave's position forbids him. I believe that people can be enslaved by many things--not necessarily the code of another. I believe that the enslavement of house-elves is something about which we will learn more in the next 2 books. However I at no point believe that the conditions of enforced servitude under which house-elves live need rob them of this honor. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From a_svirn at yahoo.com Tue May 31 22:08:41 2005 From: a_svirn at yahoo.com (a_svirn) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:08:41 -0000 Subject: House Elves and justice, etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129800 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Katherine Coble wrote: > > On May 31, 2005, at 1:02 PM, a_svirn wrote: > > > > > As for honour or justice ? it's simply mockery to apply these terms > > to slaves. Honour implies superiority both moral and social. Justice > > implies authority both in terms morality and in terms of power. > > Slaves are inferior (socially and according to > > convention "naturally") and subject to their masters' authority. > > > > a_svirn > > > > K: > > You're kidding, right? Really....seriously. You have to be kidding > here. > My dictionary gives one definition of honor as: > a Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity. > a_svirn: Try another dictionary. If yours skip such obvious meanings of honour as `elevated position of rank', `quality of rightness and moral superiority' it can't be a very good one. From jaanise at hello.lv Tue May 31 22:23:54 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JanisE) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:23:54 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Does JKR want us to hate Draco?/ Snape v Draco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050531222401.9F7EBABB37@mail.livas.lv> No: HPFGUIDX 129801 From: bboyminn Not working /for/ Voldemort doesn't automatically mean working /against/ him and by extension, working for the good side. ---------------------------- Jaanis: And there are the example of Black family, too. They were not on Voldemort's side, but they acknowledged many ideas for what Voldemort is fighting. And Umridge too is not clearly on the good side. I think, there're quite many positions between pro-Voldemort and against Voldemort, and I wouldn't call them neccessarily middle ground or declare pro-Voldemort as the fully "bad" position. From jaanise at hello.lv Tue May 31 22:45:49 2005 From: jaanise at hello.lv (JanisE) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2005 01:45:49 +0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Mystified by the new JKR FAQ Poll! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050531224556.DD8ABABB61@mail.livas.lv> No: HPFGUIDX 129802 From: Tammy >caesian wrote: > > Please, for the love of - something - can someone explain this to me? Or, at least, go vote for the Occlumency question? > But it's also the one question of the three that isn't acertainty to be answered in HBP. Jaanis: Caesian, this would be the same explanation why I voted for the 3rd answer too. The first two questions will be answered by the 6th book, and I am not even sure I would like to know these facts before I read it. Of course, you may hope that Rowling would tell more about Occlumency if we chose the first question, but that really depends on her. As Tammy said, the question is about wether Harry will study it, not about Occlumency itself, although Rowling some times has given more detailed explanations that might have been expected. And I'm not such a big fan of Snape either to get excited about a question that involves him. :P What else interested me was the second question "Is that the Pensieve on the U.S. cover, or something else?" Maybe I don't fully get it, as I'm not English, but cannot we perceive from the question that Rowling thinks that among those who believe it's really a Pensieve, there are really no doubts about _whose_ (which) Pensieve it is? Like she is talking about one particular Pensieve. So, have we (the readers) really seen only one Pensieve in the books? Then, is Snape using Dumbledore's Pensieve in OotP? Or maybe there are only a few Pensieves in the WW at all, or maybe only one - this one? From hambtty at triad.rr.com Tue May 31 22:53:41 2005 From: hambtty at triad.rr.com (B.G.) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:53:41 -0000 Subject: "Some won't like it" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinlore" wrote: > > > I wonder if that is what she means at all. Mastering one's feelings > doesn't necessarily mean having a good attitude (look at Snape, who's > supposedly a master Occlumens). Nor does she say that Harry will > accomplish that goal quickly and easily. I suspect that JKR was taken > aback by the deep dislike many fans expressed toward Angry!Harry in > OOTP. Indeed, it is the main complaint one reads on fan sites about > OOTP. This may (and I am completely speculating here) be her > acknowledgment that HBP!Harry will still not be to many fans liking. > > Lupinlore BG writes: I for one do not understand why so many are surprised at Harry acting like a teenage boy - HE IS ONE. His character would not be believable any other way either by teens or by adults. Teen readers identify with him and his feelings. That is what I like about the books - young readers realize even Harry Potter has feelings of doubt about himself, argues with his friends, feels helpless - life out of his hands, and deals with friends turning on him. All the things teen boys and girls deal with and things we adults remember going through. As a teacher I use Harry as an example of someone who "weathers his storms" by facing them and working through them eventually. I tell them he need not do so without complaining, feeling sorry for himself or being disappointed by adults and friends. The books help them open up sometimes and talk about their feelings about growing up since they no longer feel alone. I hope she keeps the angry, questioning, moody yet - loyal and kind Harry. He is afterall only 16 in this next book. 14 - 17 were my kids most explosive years. According to JKR Harry has much more hardships and challenges in store for him so things are not going to ease up on him. He will have moments of greatness for sure but still is just a 16 year old boy trying his best to do the right thing when the easy is well, easier. From bboyminn at yahoo.com Tue May 31 23:05:36 2005 From: bboyminn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 23:05:36 -0000 Subject: Half Blood, Pure Blood--Help Pease In-Reply-To: <29873-429C99C8-1040@storefull-3312.bay.webtv.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129804 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, sro35 at w... wrote: > I do not understand what makes a person half blood. In OOTP, DD > tells Harry that Voldemort chose him, the half blood, and not > Neville, the pure blood. What makes Harry a half blood? > > Both of Harry's parents were magical, doesn't that make him pure > blood? Does Lily coming from a Muggle family change it? If so, > why? > > Thanks in advance for your help.... > Stan bboyminn: The problem is that the wizard world doesn't have one absolute definition of 'half-blood'. For example, Bary Crouch Sr. and Barty Crouch Jr. probably don't have the same definition. If you hold mixed-bloods or those with muggle heritage in a good light, then you probably apply a liberal and benevolent definition. However, if you hold them in a unfavorable light, and by the same token holf youself in a very superior light, then you probably have a very ridged definition. To complicate matters further, the term can be altered by context. For example, Dumbledore probably does not truly regard Harry as a half-blood since both is parent are magical beings, but in a conversation with Harry about Voldemort and Voldemort's attitudes, Dumbledore does indeed refer to Harry as a Half-blood, but it is to make his point in the context of that specific conversation. We have several term that come into play - Pureblood - many generations of pureblood ancestors Full-Blood - while not used in the book, this would be the child of two magical parents Half-Blood - to a normal sane person this would be one magical parent and one muggle parent. Note that while techically you may be half-muggle, there is no such thing as half-magical. You are either all magical or you are not magical. So relative to magic, the is no such thing as half-blood. Muggle-born - magical person born of two non-magical/muggle parents Mudblood - anyone who has even a trace of muggle heritage in them. But again this varies with the attitude of the person using the term. If you have more muggle heritage and/or ancestry than I do, and I am a racist jerk, then you are a mudblood and I am a superior being. But to someone whose blood is more pure that mine, I become the inferior mudblood and they become the aledgedly superior being. Squib - may be derived from the same term for a firecrack or other explosive that doesn't go off. Same as a firecracker dud. In the wizard world, a person born of magical parents but one who has no magical abilities. To one person, one generation of all magical ancestors is enough to make you a full-blood, to another person with a stricter attitude, 6 generations of pureblood are require to make the grade. To a third person, no trace of muggle blood not matter how distance and remote is enough to redeem you in their eyes. So, you can't get a clear definition of 'half-blood' because it varies from person to person. Just a thought. Steve/Bboyminn From alishak at spu.edu Tue May 31 20:54:30 2005 From: alishak at spu.edu (madorganization) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 20:54:30 -0000 Subject: Kreacher -workable solution? The more I think about it. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129805 > bboyminn: > > What follows, of course, will be pure speculation, but hopeful > somewhat reasonable and sound speculation. > > First point, I suspect much like inheritence under Common Law, a house > elfs allegiance doesn't ascend or move sideways, typically it will > alway decend unless there is no one left. So, to some extent we are > back to arguing the nature of the inheritance of the Black Family Estate. > Narcissa, by her marriage to Lucius Malfoy has become > part of the House of Malfoy. > Alisha: It would seem that Kreacher still views Narcissa as part of the House of Black. When Sirius sends him away at Christmas, Kreacher goes to (according to DD) the last living, free member of the House of Black who still holds to the family's ideals. Kreacher also has no qualms about divulging the family's (the Order's) secrets to Narcissa. This is something he wouldn't be able to do if he didn't still regard her as part of the House of Black. So whatever the law concerning inheritance of house elves may or may not be, I believe that, given the opportunity, Kreacher would gladly transfer his loyalties to Narcissa as the last remaining "Black". -Alisha From gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com Tue May 31 23:52:15 2005 From: gardengirlgarden at yahoo.com (Michelle Crowe) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:52:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More-More Thoughts about Draco In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429CF8AF.4040100@yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 129806 Magda Grantwich wrote: > > The anti-giant angle is just frosting on the cake. festuco wrote: festuco wrote: > That Hagrid is half-giant becomes only known in GoF. Before that there > is nothing known about Hagrid's family, so he might as well have been > a pure-blood. "I thought he had just got into a bottle of Skele-Gro when he was a child" (or words to that effect). Indeed Hagrid's giant heritage was a surprise to ferret boy. Michelle From maliksthong at yahoo.com Tue May 31 19:40:34 2005 From: maliksthong at yahoo.com (Chys Lattes) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 19:40:34 -0000 Subject: Death in the Wizarding World In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129810 > Raised by a very elderly widower > and Death Eater father, That makes it sound like two people. I was wondering if he wasn't somehow related to Snape, any ideas? Chys From tab1669 at elnet.com Tue May 31 22:47:07 2005 From: tab1669 at elnet.com (flyingmonkeypurple) Date: Tue, 31 May 2005 22:47:07 -0000 Subject: Hagrid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 129812 >>Gerry: wrote >That Hagrid is half-giant becomes only known in GoF. Before that there is nothing known about Hagrid's family, so he might as well have been a pure-blood. flyingmonkeypurple: Ok does anyone think that it is really weird that Hagrid is half giant? It's kind of imposible to be half-giant. Not to get inappropriate or anything but She huge and it's not posible. Maybe because she was writing this for kids they would not catch this part. Or Unless their is some other way to have a baby when your a witch. I just have a problem with this it's weird flyingmonkeypurple