[HPforGrownups] Re: Prophecy wording - why not Neville?

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 128378

Just a couple of points, since I think that GEO and I are simply going
to have to agree to disagree.  I agree that the weight of the evidence
favors Harry as the One, so the issue is whether Neville has been
ruled out.  And that turns on our willingness to accept Dumbledore's
statements without further proof.

> GEO: I'm not just talking about a physical mark, but also
> similarities and equalities in power and background. It was
> Voldemort's attack on Harry that left the boy with the mark and some
> of Voldemort's own powers including parseltongue, but it also left
> Harry's life very similar to that of the young Tom Riddle Jr:
> orphaned, being raised by muggles who they obviously were not
> particularly fond of, being "saved" through the Hogwarts letters,
> having their shared wand cores and getting the opportunity to be
> sorted into slytherin house, which Harry thankfully avoided. Neville
> shares none of these similarities with Voldemort aside from the lack
> of a mark.

But the prophecy doesn't mention any similarities.  It merely states
that the One will be marked "as his equal."  Dumbledore seems to
believe that Harry is emerging as Voldemort's equal.  But that is not
an objective fact; it's Dumbledore's assessment of the situation.

> GEO: But within the realm of our knowledge, Harry is the only one
> that has been as somewhat of an equal to the Dark Lord though
> certainly not in magical power and knowledge, but certainly in
> background and we have seen that in two contests of will power,
> Harry has proven to be stronger than Voldemort or at least strong
> enough to exorcise the latter from his mind and force his wand to
> regurgitate spells in what appeared to be a duel of wills.

It's the power that Voldemort has not that allows Harry to win at
priori incantantem.  But many people possess that power.  It is not
unique to Harry.
 
> GEO: Considering that Dumbledore was even able to divine the reasons
> for why Voldemort picked Harry instead of Neville, I think the man's
> knowledge of Voldemort's actions and intentions shouldn't be
> questioned, it is just part of his character.

This is our fundamental disagreement.  There's no evidence that
Dumbledore can divine anything; he is quite skeptical of Divination
(though that's probably not the context you meant in using that word).
 If his explanation is correct (and it seems astounding to me that
Voldemort would not go after *both* boys, just to cover his bases),
then I think Dumbledore would have had to have learned it somewhere. 
But where?  If someone else told him, then it's hearsay.

I wrote:
> > And, in my mind, the big tip-off that Dumbledore has not correctly
> > analysed it comes when he tells Harry that the phrase "neither can
> > live while the other survives" means that Harry will have to kill
> > Voldemort or be killed.
> 
> GEO: Actually that was Harry's intepretation. Dumbledore just
> confirmed his interpretation and there were other bits of the
> prophecy to take into account like the "and either must die at the
> hand of the other" statement.

Geoff and I have addressed the possible meanings of "die" on another
thread.  As to the other point, Dumbledore's confirmation tells us
that he independently reached the same conclusion.

> GEO: The issue was discuessed in
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/128287

Actually, that wasn't the quote I meant.  I was referring to JKR's
statement that she uses Hermione or Dumbledore when she needs to
convey a fact to the reader.  The problem here is that the purpose of
Dumbledore's analysis is to make Harry believe that *he* must bear the
burden of killing Voldemort, or evil will prevail.  It's not a fact
that we as readers must know, so I'm not sure that statement that I
can't find applies.

In the quote referred to in #128287, JKR does tell us that Dumbledore
"explains" why Voldemort picked Harry.  But my skeptical mind wants to
know how Dumbledore knows this before I can treat it as fact.  And a
good writer should convey this information in the books themselves. 
It's not enough that she tells us elsewhere to believe him.  As it
stands, I think the Book Day statement could be misdirection; she
answered by telling us what a character said in the book.

> GEO: Actually in the words of the writer he is the most omniscient
> character in the book though I for one would argue that there is a
> difference in mistakes made by him because of errors in judgement
> and errors in fact and knowledge. 

Again, can you provide a cite for this?  I don't recall her ever
saying anything about Dumbledore being omniscient.

Debbie
who finds the prophecy fascinating, but hated the chapter in which its
contents were revealed