Hermione's Hypocrisy?(long)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 129147

>>a_svirn:
>Um, I didn't marvel at the way human rights organisation work. I 
merely pointed out that Hermione does indeed see herself as liberator 
of house-elves. Not just any liberator but the founder and the head 
of the liberation front. And I think it was strange and even 
uncharacteristic of her, that she didn't research the problem first. 
Her normal attitude is "when in doubt go to the library". In this 
instance she goes to the library but for all the wrong reasons.<

Betsy:
I was under the impression that you saw as useless the entire concept 
of SPEW.  Later on in the area I snipped you said: 

"She delights in developing this stupid bureaucracy and inventing 
ridiculous names yet she doesn't spare even a fleeting thought on how 
elves come to be enslaved and what kind magic is involved."

So I was showing that Hermione creating an Elf Liberation movement 
was not actually the *obviously* colossal waste of time you seemed to 
be implying it was.  I imagine Hermione was looking for other such 
movements, and probably an overview of the laws governing house-elf
rights while in the library.  I think she probably researched the 
*legal* issues (shades of Buckbeak) because the problem was so 
obvious as to not need research. Hermione way over-simplified the 
issue, yes, but in a way I think to be very much in character for her.

>>Betsy:
>Actually, I think Hermione sees herself more as a budding political 
activist.  And I think she's genuinely interested in her cause.<
<snip>
 
>>a_svirn:
>I never claimed that she is UNinterested. No did I say that she is a 
hardened cynic. She is actually quite decent sort of person on most 
occasions. But is it really such a big difference between a political 
activist and a politician? I'd say a politician is a political 
activist who succeeded. And Hermione is clearly determined to 
succeed.<

Betsy:
Do you think it's wrong of Hermione to want to succeed?  She does get 
a bit grating, and her sneak attack on the Hogwarts house-elves is a 
very wrong tactic, IMO. But her overall wish for a more equal WW, and 
respect for all the creatures that inhabit it is a good one.  And I 
feel like, as Hermione matures, it's one she may very well have a 
hand in bringing about.  (Honestly, I think Harry will be the main 
catalyst for that sort of radical change.) 

>>a_svirn:
>Yes, you are probably right about Ron.<

Betsy:
Yay! <g>

>>Betsy:
<snip>
>But I think Hermione is trying, and I also think that empathy is the 
thing that comes very hard to her.<

>>a_svirn:
>Is it though? I seem to remember a number of occasions when she 
experienced no difficulty empathizing.<
<snip of examples>

Betsy:
Not on the first level, no.  Just as a refresher course, here is 
Sophierom's three levels of empathy (see message 129070).
>1. I try to step into your shoes, as it were; I ask myself how I
would feel if I were in your position.
2. I step back and try to understand how YOU actually feel in this
situation.
3. Finally, I ask, WHY do you feel the way you do?<

In the examples you listed, I think once Hermione figured out how 
*she'd* feel in that situation, she had a pretty good grasp on how 
the other person was feeling.  House-elves have such a different way 
of looking at the world, they demand the second level if one has hope 
of understanding them.  Hermione, in my opinion, has yet to reach 
that level.

>>a_svirn:
>And when she leapt to Winky's defence in the face of the 
incriminating evidence and stood bravely up to the top Ministry 
officials on her behalf – what is it, if not empathy?<

Betsy:
The first step of empathy, yes.  Hermione acted the way she'd hope 
other's would react if she was in Winky's position.  But when 
Hermione argues with Mr. Crouch, I don't think Winky really
appreciated Hermione's interference.  Because, and this is what 
Hermione cannot understand, Winkly is completely loyal to Mr. 
Crouch.  IIRC, Winky does not consider Hermione her friend.

>>a_svirn:
<snip> 
>Because you see, SPEW is not about elves it is about Hermione's self-
justification. In itself her need to justify herself is not such a 
bad thing. She was struck by realisation that she with her fine
principles had actually benefited from the slaves' labour...
<snip>
>She needed something, anything to reconcile her consciousness with 
the continuing use of slaves. So she devised SPEW.<
<snip>

Betsy:
This strikes me as too cynical.  I think Hermione came to the 
conclusion that her refusal to eat, or her leaving Hogwarts would 
change nothing. (Which is correct.  She's a no-name muggleborn;
who'd care if she starved or left?) Hermione wants to bring about 
change.  She thinks SPEW is the way to do it. Period.

>>Betsy:
<snip>
>And she gives him a Christmas quilt (without her name attached, 
IIRC) as a present.  I don't think Hermione thought the present would 
soothe all of Kreacher's troubles.  It was a token, an outreaching. 
There's nothing wrong, nothing even condescending, in her gesture. I 
see nothing arrogant about it.<
 
>>a_svirn:
>A token of what? Friendship? To give a token of friendship to 
someone who ostensibly despises you and has expressed more than once 
his cherished wish – to see you gone – IS condescending.<

Betsy:
If it was mere personal friendship, Hermione would have put her name 
on the quilt.  I think Hermione was trying to show Kreacher that he 
was cared for, that he didn't need to hold onto his hatred, that he 
was worthy of receiving a gift.  In short, she was trying to break 
him out of the vicious hold the Black family had on him.  She *way* 
underestimated his loyalty, but she wasn't condescending to him.  
(And personally, I see nothing condescending in reaching out a hand to
those who've expressed hatred towards you.  Not if you're genuine 
about it.  It may not work, but the suggestion that someone else is 
worth your time and effort strikes me as just about the opposite of 
condescension.)

>>a_svirn:
>Good will?  Having methodically destroyed everything that matters 
for Kreacher she then "reaches out" with a blanket? Well, it is at 
the very least arrogant.<

Betsy:
That *Hermione* destroyed?!? Hermione is a child in that household.  
Kreacher hates her the worst because she is a muggleborn and he's 
been brought up on a diet of the ugliest kind of racism.  It's 
*Molly* who declared war on the House of Black, and it's Sirius who 
fails in his duty as master of the house and allows Molly to do her 
work.  Hermione defiles Kreachers house by breathing.  Though he 
might prefer Hermione commit ritual suicide, she gives him a quilt
instead.  If Hermione thought that was all Kreacher needed, than yes, 
I could agree with your assessment that she was arrogant. But 
Hermione did not think the quilt would fix everything. She just hoped 
it could help. 

Betsy, who would like to point out that Yahoo!Mort ate my first 
post.  Again. This time I cleverly cut and pasted, so yay!  Who knows 
what that will do to the format.  Nothing good I'm betting. *sigh*