Dumbledore's Hypocrisy/Sirius and Kreacher

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 129237

Pippin:
That's not what I'm saying. Of course Kreacher had a chance to decide
whether or not to serve the good. But if his choice was not
preordained how can you say that Sirius's treatment of him didn't 
matter? To say that no kindness could reach him is to say that
Kreacher was a lost soul already. And even if we, as readers,
have the right to make that judgement, Dumbledore does not. Nor did
Sirius.


Alla:

I guess I was not clear. Sorry! That is not what I was saying 
either. I was not saying that no kindness could reach Kreacher. it 
IS a possibility that it could ( although I would argue that we do 
see that Hermione sort of tried). I was saying that it is likely 
judging by Kreacher's fanatic loyalty to Sirius mother that he was 
indeed a lost soul already, regardless of what Sirius did or did not 
to him. The possibility, not a fact.

If somebody kind tried to reach Kreacher many years ago, I think the 
posssibility of him turning away from Dark could have been there, 
but not now.

It is just a speculation, but again look at Dobby. He was treated 
EXTREMELY bad in Malfoy's house. Has he turned to the Dark? Nope, so 
to  me it is quite likely that kreacher could have done the same 
thing.

I am saying that Kreacher should not be EXCUSED of his actions, of 
his betrayal, simply because he is a slave. 
Am I arguing that nobody should have tried to reach Kreacher in the 
present days? NO. Am I saying that IMO the possibility of success 
would have been very thin? Yes, I do.

And as to Dumbledore passing judgment, well, isn't it exactly what 
he did?

He passed judgment on  the dead man in front of his grieving godson, 
no less and yes, I do find it extremely insensitive in the very 
least.

Again, I do understand the plot based necessity to comment on 
Sirius' mistakes, but the simple RL analogy makes me cringe my teeth 
every time I read this scene. No matter what you think about 
somebody, who just passed away, I was taught not to say anything bad 
about this person AT LEAST to the friends and relatives of such 
person, to show respect for their grief, especially if those people 
are friends of mine, even if the person who passed away wasn't.


I do wonder what makes me react so negatively towards this scene.I 
suppose I just interpret this scene as very strong diversion from my 
personal moral code. I guess and I may rethink it that when I read 
these words of Dumbledore I am feeling ashamed for the man.

Boy, JKR is good, even in the scenes which I dislike she evokes such 
strong emotions from me. :-)

Laura:

To call Sirius a "proud owner" of a house-elf is entirely false.  
For good or for bad, Sirius would have set Kreacher free if he'd had 
his way.  As it was, however, Sirius was *forced* to keep the little 
git around because he knew too much about the Order.

<SNIP> 
Now, I'm not arguing that Sirius treated Kreacher with any respect 
or kindness.  But I think it's clear that, at the very least, he was 
not interested in owning a House-Elf.  Furthermore, I think one can 
infer from his discussion with HRH in GoF that, again, at the very 
*least*, he does not support House-Elf enslavement or mistreatment.  
If *only* because he associates it with his family.


Alla:

Me too! ( with every word of your post in fact)

 
Sophie: 
So, by the time that Dumbledore has to explain Sirius's death,
Kreacher's involvement, and the prophecy to Harry, he has little
choice but to tell Harry some very painful things.  Was the timing
bad? Hell yes. But did he have much of a choice? Well, since it was
Harry who asked him how Kreacher could have betrayed Sirius, he could
have avoided Harry's question, lied, or said what he did. I suppose 
he could have said something like, "Well Harry, Kreacher's 
relationship with Sirius is complicated," but given CAPSLOCK!Harry's 
state of mind at that moment, I don't know that he would have 
accepted a brush-off like that. 

Alla:

I think Dumbledore should have stopped right after he tells the 
story of Kreacher's betrayal.

You know, right after Harry says " and Hermione kept telling us to 
be nice to him..." I think Dumbledore had no right at that moment to 
try and put the blame from Kreacher to Sirius. Kreacher consciously 
betrayed Sirius. I think Harry had an absolute right to hate him for 
a while, but nope, Dumbledore goes on and on and on. :-)

I think and this is just a speculation, but I don't think that 
enslavement makes elves to be zombies,despite what Hermione believes.

I don't think that such conversation would have been a brush off at 
all, IMO.

 
Sophie:
Thinking back on canon, I can't remember a situation in which
Dumbledore refuses to answer one of Harry's questions. 

Alla:
"Well.... Voldemort said that he only killed my mother because she 
tried to stop him from killing me. But why would he want to kill me 
in the first place?
Dumbledore signed very deeply this time.
"Alas, the first thing you ask me, I cannot tell you. not today. Not 
now." - PS/SS, p.299.


Sophie:
I don't know if this makes Dumbledore good or bad, strong or weak,
manipulative or caring.  But I do think Dumbledore has far less power
than we tend to ascribe to him.  It's a rude awakening for Harry and 
a rude awakening for us, the readers, which is why I suspect that 
many of us, myself included, were pulling out our hair during those 
last few chapters of OotP, screaming at the book, "How did you let 
things get this way, Dumbledore!" 


Alla:

True, but there is a difference between making mistakes and acting 
stupid. You know, the difference between Dumbledore of PoA, who let 
Harry and Hermione go on the dangerous adventure which could kill 
them, Dumbledore of GoF,who let Harry compete in the tournament  
with large casualty rates  and Dumbledore of OOP is a bit much for 
me.

I never expected Dumbledore to act as G-d. I never saw him as G-d 
like figure, but I did expect him to act as powerful wizard,as 
leader of the resistance and as leader who cares about emotional 
state his soldiers are in.

Was dissapointed, much. :-) Am cautiously optimistic about HBP 
though judging by the covers. :-)

I really enjoyed reading your post, Sophie. Thank you very much!


Just my opinion,

Alla.