Sirius' situation was Re: Debatable ethical issues in OotP and HBP

[ellecain]

No: HPFGUIDX 142363

> 
> Alla: <snip>
> 
> See, I did not buy that there was nothing that could be done about 
> Sirius, except stucking him in the home, which he left behind at 
> sixteen, I did not buy it at all.

Elyse: I didnt buy it either. This was one of the reasons why OOTP 
was so profoundly unsatisfying for me. I had *loved* GoF in which 
Sirius acted completely sane and I didnt like the way his character 
changed into a moody depressed boozer in the next book. I understand 
that he had to die but did JKR have to make him so thoroughly 
depressed and unbalanced? This is the only reason I start waving 
my "JKR is mean" flag.....<unfurls flag and waves it>

> Alla
> Oh, and when I say that something could be done, I do NOT mean 
that 
> Dumbledore had to do something special for Sirius, not at all, I 
> only mean that he could have come up with SOMETHING for Sirius to 
> do, any task would have been better than doing nothing.

Elyse: Once again, I agree completely. I remember Ron saying Charlie 
was in Romania so I'm pretty sure Sirius could have been sent on 
international misssions every once in a while.I dont know whether 
the British MoM had the power to make say the French or German MoM 
hand him over had he been seen in another country. But still, I was 
as frustrated as Siriu smust have been while reading the book. I 
dont think he should have had to waste the last year of his life 
cooped up in his parents house solving Daily Prophet crosswords to 
pass the time.


> Alla:
> Sirius' safety is important? Sure, it is, but we do NOT know for 
> sure that every DE knows about his animagus form, otherwise he 
could 
> have been hunted down after he escaped from Azkaban and was on the 
> Islands ( or in whatever place he was hiding). He could have gone 
on 
> the missions as Padfoot, any kind of mission, IMO.

Elyse: And even if all the DE's did know his Animagus form, they 
could hardly shoot him on the street. I imagine bystanders would 
have been extremely shocked if a passerby suddenly killed a dog on 
the street without any provocation whatsoever. And anyway, didnt 
Sirius know all the DeathEater's identities through Harry? He could 
have stayed away from them while doing work for the Order. I think 
his dog disguise would have been a better used to spy on people, 
maybe better than Snape, since people arent fussed what they say 
around a stray dog.


> Alla <snip excellent points that I agree completely with>
> 
> Again, I am simply not buying that the choices for Sirius were to 
> live depressed or to die depressed. It seems to me that if 
> Dumbledore would simply pay more attention then Sirius' choices 
> could have been to live or die of course, but not necessarily 
> depressed. <snip>
> 
> I think I agree with Lealess in that Sirius' situation was simply 
> plot dictated.
> 

Elyse: Yes I think it was just there to fulfil the plot, and this is 
why I didnt like OOTP as much as the rest of the books. I think it 
was Lupinlore who said that character should dictate plot and not 
the other way around. I think the whole point of OOTP was the 
prophecy and Sirius' death, and they could both have been brought 
about in another way, IMO. In any case, I was in way too much shock 
after Sirius' death to pay much attention the prophecy :-)

> 
> Lucianam73 wrote:
> > Now, HBP. It got a little worse.
> ><SNIP of the quote that could be read UPTHREAD>
> > (from Chapter 4, `Horace Slughorn')
> <SNIP> 
> > What I'm saying is: I very much object to how little_ or even 
none 
> _ 
> > room to debate JKR left in those two paragraphs. She left 
> absolutely 
> > no question of how great it is that Harry wants to kill Death 
> > Eaters. She very specifically says Dumbledore enthusiastically 
> > approves of this plan. 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I interpret this quote differently. Harry says that he would take 
as 
> many DE with him as he could IF he could be taken out and 
Dumbledore 
> approves of it, IMO, because it is absolute self defense, IMO, 
> nothing more , nothing less.

Elyse: Yes I think that here, Harry is only saying this in the 
situation where if he doesnt kill them first, they will kill him. 
Absolute self defense. Otherwise as he says in HBP, he would be best 
pals with them if they didnt keep trying to do him in... ;-)

> Alla:
> Others commented on heroic aspect of Harry' speech, it did not 
quite 
> work that well for me, because it sounded to me as if Harry tried 
to 
> push his grief for Sirius out of his mind and puts on brave front, 
> even if he really does not feel that bravado ( I was extremely 
> pleased how JKR handled Harry's grief in general in HBP, but THIS 
> part I did find a bit annoying)
> 

Elyse: I was really relieved to see the back of Angry!Harry as well, 
but I think his grief in HBP was slightly glossed over.
However that speech annoyed me as well, because it sounded slightly 
arrogant and melodramatic, even if the sentiments behind it were 
sincere. Harry's bravery does come through, but it smacks slightly 
of theatrics and ends up more like sixteen year old bravado

Elyse (who really just wanted to say 'I agree' but couldnt post a 
one liner)