Debatable ethical issues in OotP and HBP and Lifedebts

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 142419

> Marianne:
> 
> This has always bothered me about dissections of Sirius' 
character. 
> The fact that he made a mistake in trusting his friend Peter is 
> somehow a character flaw in Sirius. I suppose it's also a flaw 
with 
> James and Lily, and obviously Dumbledore, too, in that the man 
> running the OoP didn't figure out Peter was a spy, but Sirius is 
the 
> one taken to task for it.  Yes, you can say that this event was 
the 
> precursor for things that went wrong in Sirius' life later, but 
I'm 
> uncomfortable for condemning people for honestly made mistakes, 
> especially when they end up paying a high price for someone else's 
> sin.  

Magpie:

I have to agree.  I mean, for me what's so tragic about Sirius (whom 
I liked much more after OotP and wished we'd spent more time with 
him in that book) is that of course his fate is ultimately his own 
doing--everyone's is.  His life was a combination of circumstances 
beyond his control and his own personality governing the way he 
reacted to it, just as it is with every other character.  In Sirius' 
case events conspired to the point where everything about him, good 
and bad, led him to 12 years in Azkaban and a surprise death at the 
hands of his cousin.  

The fact that Sirius intentionally convinced his friends to make 
Peter the secret keeper because he thought it was safer is probably 
the reason behind that crazed laugh.  Sirius, James and Lily all 
fell straight into Peter's trap and all wound up dead because of it; 
Sirius can't help but see his part in it.  I agree with Marianne 
that this is hardly a character flaw of Sirius'.  And I think 
Sirius' own death worked the same way--Harry fell right into 
Kreacher's trap. Harry's insistance on going to the MoM etc. was far 
more directly tied to Sirius' death than Snape taunting him months 
before, which Harry must know.  That's probably why he's focusing on 
it, trying to believe that if Snape hadn't taunted Sirius about 
being useless Sirius wouldn't have gone to rescue Harry from the 
trap Harry himself walked into against the warnings of his own 
friends.  (One of the twins "taunts" Sirius the same way in OotP 
anyway, after Arthur is attacked.)

Still, it's not like we should blame Harry for Sirius' death any 
more than we should blame Sirius for James' death or his own 
imprisonment and death.  James and Lily were killed by Voldemort, 
with Peter intentionally helping them.  Sirius no doubt blames 
himself for their deaths but he was trying to save them.  Same with 
Harry and Sirius--he was trying to save Sirius and his good 
intention was used against him.  Bellatrix killed Sirius.  True 
Sirius' recklessness helped get him to the place where Bellatrix 
could act, and Harry's actions played a part as well, but while I 
can understand being *frustrated* by their actions because you see 
how it's leading them to their doom, I don't they can be blamed in 
the sense of absolving anyone else's guilt, if that makes sense.

And on lifedebts:

colebiancardi

However, I am curious if Draco owes Snape a lifedebt now. I wonder 
if the Unbreakable Vow nulls that out - Snape could have died, he 
could have turned his back on Draco. But Snape did save Draco.

Magpie:

I don't see why he should owe him a lifedebt for making the Vow.  
It's hard to explain, but it just doesn't seem to be a situation 
like the lifedebts we've seen--actually I've recently been thinking 
that perhaps it's ironic that DD claims Snape owes James a lifedebt 
before he knows that James was an animagus.  Did James get credit 
for risking his life more than he did since DD didn't know James 
hung out with werewolf!Lupin all the time?

Anyway, in Draco's case his life isn't in danger that very second.  
Nor does Snape remove the threat of Voldemort, really.  Draco's 
still under his thumb whether he kills Dumbledore or not.  Plus, 
what seems even more important is the fact that I really don't think 
that Snape's killing Dumbledore could possibly be seen as the sort 
of selfless life-giving act associated with the Lifedebt.  If Draco 
chooses not to kill Dumbledore, that's a good choice on his part, 
because killing Dumbledore is wrong, even if it means the death of 
Draco himself.  So I can't see that Snape stepping in and committing 
the evil act for him should put Draco in his debt.  It would almost 
be like saying that if Draco killed Dumbledore even when he really 
didn't want to that Snape should be in Draco's debt because he saved 
Snape from his own UV.  Or--more accurately--that if Peter or Snape 
had pushed Lily out of the way when Voldemort was trying to kill 
Harry she would owe him a life debt.  It just doesn't seem right. 

colebiancardi:

I really don't think Snape *likes* Draco all that much - the whole 
scene on the Tower where he roughly and shoved Draco out of the way -
 he grabbed him after DD fell off the tower. Just seems if one likes 
someone, they wouldn't manhandle them like that. Or at least that is 
how I read it. I wonder if any of the other posters have any 
thoughts on Snape, Draco, Unbreakable Vows and does that mean they 
null out a lifedebt or not?

Magpie:

I think Snape's manhandling has everything to do with the situation 
and not his personal feelings about Draco.  The situation all year 
has been incredibly frustrating for him, and now here it's all ended 
just the way he didn't want it too.  (Apparently movie!Dumbledore is 
even worse to Harry in the GoF movie!)  Whatever is going on in that 
scene isn't about revealing Snape's personal feelings for Draco, 
imo.  To me he still read as protective towards him in the scene--
especially when he siezes him by the scruff of the neck.  I can't 
believe that choice of words wasn't deliberately suggesting a 
parental image.  "By the scruff of the neck" is associated with a 
mother car picking up her kitten.

I think the idea in HBP is that Snape and Draco do have a good 
relationship (at least they like each other), but that this year 
it's broken down, much like Harry's and Dumbledore's in OotP.  Draco 
seems determined to "be a man" and do the deed Voldemort wants him 
to do alone, he's refusing to let Snape help (or prevent him), he's 
accusing Snape of trying to "steal his glory" and therefore stop him 
from growing up (and really, he's right).  I get the sense from 
their argument that his father's imprisonment is seriously changing 
his personality towards Snape.  Basically, it seems like a not 
atypical adult/kid relationship when the kid goes through 
adolescence.  For me it does seem to indicate a real relationship 
and not just Snape looking out for the kid for some other reason 
without really liking him.  

But then I've always been frustrated by how generally accepted an 
idea it's been for years in fandom that Snape's seemingly positive 
relationship with Draco is all an act or part of some grand scheme 
of his and that he really doesn't like him at all.  Sometimes it 
seems like that's just more fandom trying to get Snape in line with 
their own thoughts: Draco's not good enough for Snape, so Snape is 
just pretending to like him and really he likes Neville and Harry et 
al., only he can't show it.  It explains away an inconvenient part 
of canon.  Not that I'm saying you're doing that here.  I just think 
that the Snape/Draco relationship is consistent and intentionally 
done to suggest an actual connection on the other side.  I was 
pleased it was used to push Snape to reveal himself one way or the 
other.

-m