Debatable ethical issues in OotP and HBP

[spotsgal]

No: HPFGUIDX 142439

> Carol earlier:
> > > The responsibility for that wasted life, like the decision to go
> to the MoM, is primarily or entirely his own.
> > 
> > SSSusan:
> > Again, this strikes me as harsh.
> 
> Carol responds:
> Why harsh? If it wasn't his own choice, whose choice was it? I'm not
> excusing Bellatrix for killing him or Voldemort for sending the DEs
> to the MoM or Kreacher for tricking him. I'm not blaming poor Harry,
> who thought he was doing the right thing. 

Christina:

Do you think that Harry's belief that he was doing the right thing
frees him from blame?  Because if that's true, I don't see how you can
blame Sirius for doing what he sees as right.

Also, interestingly enough, I *do* blame Harry for Sirius's death,
much more than I blame Sirius himself.  While I've never accepted the
idea that adults should be obeyed without question, Harry knowingly
disobeys explicit orders given by people that he trusts- Dumbledore,
Lupin, Sirius.  Harry is told again and again that, in Lupin's words,
"There is nothing so important as you learning Occlumency....Do you
understand me?  Nothing!"  He doesn't disobey them out of a feeling of
responsibility (as Sirius believes that he is responsible to help
Harry by going to the MoM).  He disobeys them out of his own
curiousity!  And if we really want to point fingers concerning
Sirius's death, I would argue that Dumbledore deserves the lion's
share of the blame (after Bellatrix and Voldemort of course, like you
said).  He assumes that Harry will take him at his word concerning
Occlumency, and never bothers to fill him in on exactly *why* it was
so important.  If Harry had known that he was vulnerable to mental
attacks from Voldemort, he would have recognized the possibility that
Voldemort could try and lure him to the MoM.  If Dumbledore had just
told him about the prophecy, Harry wouldn't have been so darn curious
about what was in the DoM.

> Carol:
> Had he chosen to wait for Dumbledore as Snape told him to do, he 
> would be alive. I'm not saying it was the "wrong" thing to 
> do; it was certainly in character for him to join the others rather
> than sitting around wishing he could join them. I'm just asking how
> his motivation for going to the MoM, whether to help Harry or just 
> to get out of the house and *do* something, changes the fact that if
> he hadn't gone to the MoM, he wouldn't have died.

Christina:

It doesn't change anything, but that isn't the point.  Let's say I
decide I'm going to go to the grocery store today, and I die in a car
accident on the way there.  If I hadn't gone to the grocery store, I
wouldn't have died, but that doesn't mean that I am responsible for my
own death.  I know that Sirius was making the choice to enter a much
more dangerous situation, but what I'm trying to say is that the fact
that Sirius died has nothing to do with the fact that he wasn't
supposed to leave the house.  Whether he made the right decision or
not doesn't matter.  One event led to the other (Sirius went to the
MoM-->Sirius died), but that doesn't mean that Sirius's choice to go
the MoM makes him responsible for his own death.

> Carol:
> I'm sure that he felt he was doing his duty and finally getting a 
> chance to help Harry and the Order, but it's unclear whether his 
> presence made any difference.

Christina:

I hesitate to get into the particulars of various what-if scenarios,
but I will throw this out there:

(OotP, Am Ed., page 803)
"Dolohov raised his wand again.  'Accio Proph-'

Sirius hurtled out of nowhere, rammed Dolohov with his shoulder, and
sent him flying out of the way.  The prophecy had again flown to the
tips of Harry's fingers but he had managed to cling to it.  Now Sirius
and Dolohov were dueling, their wands flashing like swords, sparks
flying from their wand tips"

There are also several other instances where Sirius is described as
fiercely dueling with Death Eaters.  Had Sirius not been there, the
Death Eaters that he battled would have either gone after the kids or
doubled up on another one of the Order members.  So just by the force
of sheer numbers, Sirius did contribute.

> Carol:
> And given Kreacher's remark ("Master won't return from the Ministry
> of Magic," quoted from memory) it's just possible that the DEs did 
> have a vendetta against him.

Christina:

But look at what Dumbledore says later on:

(page 829)
" 'Kreacher lied,' said Dumbledore calmly.  'You are not his master,
he could lie to you without even needing to punish himself.  Kreacher
intended you to go to the Ministry of Magic.' "

You have a point, but I think the much more likely scenario is that
Kreacher knew how to get Harry to go to the MoM- by telling him that
Sirius would die there.

> Carol, who... apologizes again for any feelings she may have stepped
> on in posting her opinions about SB

Christina:

No hurt feelings- these discussions are always good fun (and have
definitely helped me refine my own personal opinions) :)


Christina