The Iron Fist of Will - body/body or body/spirit

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 142484

Ceridwen wrote:
> While non-corporeal possession leaves too many unanswered questions
(such as the problem of what Voldemort did with his body while he was
in Harry, which is a decent-sized problem), I still have to disagree.
><snip>
> Culturally, we know that possession is by spirit/soul entities.  The
Exorcist, stories in the Bible, and other things.  I am not aware of a
physical posession that doesn't involve some parody of a pregnancy
(Alien).  We've seen three examples I can think of where someone is
possessed: TR's possession of Ginny in CoS; Voldemort's (and
subsequently Harry's) possession of Nagini in OotP (don't you feel 
sorry for the snake, having two people piggy-backing in her brain?); 
Harry at the MoM at the end of OotP.  And in none of those cases does
JKR think to inform us that, cultural expectations aside, the
possession is physical.
> 
> I doubt if she even thought about what LV's body was doing while he 
> was possessing Harry.  She naturally had Dumbledore focus on Harry, 
> since his judgement where Harry is concerned, is skewed by 
> affection.  Which Dumbledore explains later, though he doesn't 
> mention the possession scene as one of his failings that I recall.  I 
> think she's relying on our cultural perceptions to explain 
> possession, since it's her culture as well.  Any plot hole arising 
> from it, like the whole What Was LV Doing While He Possessed Harry 
> thing, is just that, a plot hole JKR didn't fill up.
> 
> That's why I can't buy possession by the body of the possessor.  
> There's nothing to back it up in our culture, and there's no 
> explanation for something she's invented outside of our cultural 
> experiences. <snip>

Carol responds:
I think our culture does support the idea of physical as well as
mental possession, that is, possession by an embodied rather than a
disembodied spirit or demon. And Voldemort, being somewhat less (or
other) than human now, can be thought of in those terms.

Possession, I think you'll agree, is usually depicted (whether in the
Bible, in legend, or in film) as a spirit entering the body of a
living person. You seem to be thinking of a spirit as being a bodiless
thing like a soul, but here's one of several definitions from
Merriam-Webster: "a malevolent being that enters and possesses a human
being." Note "being."

The Spirits that visit Scrooge on Christmas Eve (not counting Marley,
who is explicitly a ghost) have bodies and Scrooge can touch them. And
consider the original concept of a daemon, a supernatural being
intermediate between gods and men, which evolved into our concept of a
demon (think demonic possession--doesn't the demon itself enter the
possessed person without leaving its body behind)?

I think the reason that Harry felt physical pain in the DoM is that
Voldemort was possessing him physically as well as mentally. (But I
don't think that Harry was possessing Nagini. He was only channeling
Voldemort/Nagini's thoughts and feelings, not in any way controlling
them.)

Harry, of course, is not a demon/daemon, but if my theory is correct,
he will have acquired Voldemort's power of possession, the ability to
enter and control another person, through the transfer of powers at
Godric's Hollow. (As I've explained elsewhere, this is different from
sharing a soul with LV and does not require Harry to be a Horcrux.)

As for JKR not hinting earlier that possession can be physical, what
about the man with two faces? Quirrell had to wear a turban to hide
the face of Voldemort sticking out the back of his head.

Carol, who doesn't think that JKR would overlook anything as
inconvenient as the possessor's abandoned body lying around vulnerable
to attack