Why 4 Horcruxes left, and not 3??

[ronnie]

No: HPFGUIDX 142490

Hi Christina, I'm also in delay... (and very sorry that I'm not able 
to follow all the messages). 


>
> Christina:
> 
> I just wanted to say that I've never heard Sirius!lives defended in
> that way...but was that DE ever able to return to normal?  I mean, 
if
> the Death Eater could never rectify time's influence, then nobody
> could ever rectify death's influence on Sirius either.
 
Expectopatronnie:

I really have no idea what happend to the bird or the DE's head. 
Also I would like to point out that DD believes Sirius to be out of 
reach, so I don't think anybody has ever been saved from the death 
substance before. OTOH, nobody broke from Azkaban before Sirius did, 
right ? ;)

> Christina:
> 
> You're absolutely right about wizards being tough to kill
[snip]
> However, a wizard's ability to overcome injury depends on their 
> having somebody around to fix it. 
[snip]
> We have several examples of ways in which a wizard can be killed 
> without Avada Kedavra.
<snip of the examples which could be read UPTHREAD>

Expectopatronnie:

Well, to summarize, you have 2 arguments here: 
1. Non-magic injuries or mild-magic injuries could kill a wizard if 
no magic help is in the vicinity.

2. Other Powerfull *Dark* Magic can kill, besides the AK 
(Sectumsempra, poison (both on Ron's and Katie's incidents), etc.). 

Argument 2 actually fits into what I previously argued, (i.e. - only 
strong magic can kill wizards, and you're probable right in your 1st 
argument, I'll give you that. Also when previously I wrote: 

Christina:
> > I believe the most popular murder spell is AK, but perhaps Benjy 
> > Fenwick was killed by a S(maybe Snape did that?)or his body 
> > might have been abused post-mortem (like in some terrorist
> > attacks).

Expectopatronnie:
I meant the 'S' to be Sectumsmpra (which I couln't recall the exact 
name at the time, and forgot to fill it in later). Anyway, I still 
believe that the most popular murder spell is AK (when you intend to 
kill). To conclude: all we can really say from cannon is that there 
were more AK's made by DE's other than LV, but I can't really know 
how many, by whom and how popular this spell is. 

It does raise the question of the unforgivable curses: Why isn't 
killing unforgivable, no matter how it's done? Does killing by 
Sectumsempra divide the soul? Does casting an unsuccessfull spell 
(AK or other)?

> Christina:
> 
> Ah, OK, I did misunderstand you.  Thanks for clarifying.  I hear 
> your point, but at the same time, Harry knows that the only thing 
> keeping him and his friends alive is the prophecy.  Even if a 
> Death Eater killed one of the kids, there's no way Harry would 
> smash the prophecy.
 
Expectopatronnie:
Even so, he clearly does set the prophecy-crashing ultimatum when 
the DE close on *one* of his friend. On this point the DE understand 
they can't risk Harry's (short-tempered) reaction to the death of 
one friend, and they let go of Ginny. 
 
> Christina:
> 
> They still have the prophecy to lose...
[snip]
> And although I do think that the
> flashes of green light were AK spells, we can't really prove it. 
> There must be other spells that are green, and we don't hear a 
> rush of
> air like we have most of the other times one has been cast.

Expectopatronnie: 
I also tend to think the green lights were not AK's and that the DE 
didn't use AK at the battle in the DoM. Again, your first point (in 
which you are of course correct) is the reason: they had the 
prophecy to loose! 
The argument I made here is that if, by any chance the green lights 
have been Ak, it was obviously made by a DE who thought they had 
nothing to loose, and needed to escape at whatever price.  

> Christina:
> 
> I think you're right about every AK damaging the soul, making each
> person less and less human, which is basically what made me come to
> the conclusion that it must be the Horcrux-making that affected
> Voldemort so much.  
> We see that he delegates a lot of his killings to
> the Death Eaters- it is implied that only "special" people are 
> killed by Voldemort personally.  

Expectopatronnie comments: 
I thought you previously said that AK were very rare and sort of 
suggested only VM had done them... Or do you think the other 
killings were not AK style?

On a finer note, we really can't say what makes LV so non-human 
looking. Your argument on his looks seems to suggest that it is not 
the AK alone. I do believe VM (esp. in younger days)committed many 
more AK than his followers. I really don't think it can be the 
Horcrux damaging the soul. After all, don't you think that murder is 
a much more terrible (==soul damaging) crime, than encasing something 
of yours (whatever it may be), for later use? 
 
>Christina: 

> The "killing one's own father" thing is *very* interesting.  We've
> heard about the powerful magic that resides in blood (Lily's 
> sacrifice and Harry's protected status at the Dursley's).
>   Maybe destroying one's own blood gives kind of the opposite
>  affect?  Perhaps killing a blood relative somehow "taints" or 
> curses one's life, liking killing a
> Unicorn and drinking it's blood does?  It doesn't account for a
> gradual change in LV's appearance 

Expectopatronnie:

Well, why not consider it? My "father's law" here suggests that 
in order to become this inhuman, you must kill your own blood-
relative, one that you're supposed to love and obey (as a child - 
the internalization of the father figure makes you able to live in 
society). VM killed his father, unlike most of his DE who did AK's 
at strangers (excluding for sure Crouch Jr., who's looks are only 
mentioned as having an insane smile, and Bella, who IMO did not 
intend to kill via AK Sirius, so it doesn't hold for her). I believe 
that while any killing may rip your soul (soul pieces evaporating or 
not), only killing one's own parent makes you inhuman. 
Malfoy,Macnair, Bella etc. may be rotten people, who's soul is 
ripped, but they are still part of the human society, still human in 
essence. 

> Christina:
> 
> I think that while an AK might not necessarily weaken your powers 
> per se, it does do spiritual and perhaps mental damage as well. 
>  I think that the making of the Horcruxes enhances this damage.
>   When we look at the young Tom Riddle, he is charming, 
> charismatic, and very mindful
> of his actions and general demeanor.  In the present time of the
> books, he seems a touch deranged.  

expectopatronnie:

This fits in with the 'father's law' theory, as well as your Horcrux 
one. 

> Christina:
> I find myself running into a few problems in assuming that 
> anything can be a Horcrux.  What if you try and make a ham 
> sandwich into a Horcrux? Where would the
> person's soul actually be- in the ham, the bread, or the mustard?  
> Or perhaps spread evenly throughout?  What if somebody *ate* the
> sandwich.   

Expectopatronnie:

Really cool idea, Christina! And I like your comparing of the Diary 
to the Ring. Wow, I have really no idea how Hx work! I wonder if JK 
does?

expectopatronnie, in a heretic mood...