Re: CHAPDISC3: HBP 3, WILL AND WON’T

[Goddlefrood]

No: HPFGUIDX 142633

<Snip excellent Chapter summary by Ravenclaw Bookworm>

Q1: Does this signal a change in attitude toward Harry? Is this a
grassroots change or a campaign started by the Ministry?

Goddlefrood:

After the atrocious way in which Harry was treated throughout OotP 
what else could the Ministry do but come crawling back and most 
probably originate the name "the Chosen One". It most certainly is a 
change in attitude quite probably at the instigation of Fudge as a 
parting gesture, remember we have previously learned in Chapter One 
that Fudge made a last ditch bid to retain power. This then answers 
the second part of the question also in that the campaign almost 
definitely originated from the MOM itself.

In OotP as well there is little initial support from the wider 
wizarding world for Harry's assertions that LV had returned. Only 
after the article in the Quibbler do some wizards and witches 
indicate their belief in Harry, yet even this is not universal. It 
is only after LV is exposed at the MOM that Harry is restored to his 
full credibility and on that basis the view that the MOM 
rehabilitated Harry by dubbing him the chosen one is a sound one.

Q2: How does knowing that Scrimgeour was the Head Auror change your
interpretation of earlier events as they had unfolded in OotP?

The impression given by the Auror's Office in OotP is that the 
number one concern is the recapture of Sirius Black. The only other 
showing from the Aurors is when Dawlish accompanies Fudge and 
Kingsley to oust Dumbledore which suggests that the MOM was in 
complete denial, understandably IMO particularly in view of the 
remembered horrors of Voldwar I.

The actual interpretation would not change. What would be concluded 
from this fact is that Fudge held the ultimate veto over what the 
MOM did. It needn't disparage Scrimgeour as he is answerable to the 
Minister so even if he had believed that LV had returned he did as 
he was told. This also fits with the character portrayed in HBP. 
Scrimgeour seems nothing but a conformist and does not appear to be 
someone who would want to rock the boat.

Q3: Events later in the book show us that Scrimgeour tries to use
Harry to get some positive publicity for the Ministry. Do you think
this is what caused the rift between Scrimgeour and Dumbledore –
that Scrimgeour wanted to set up a meeting with Harry and Dumbledore
refused? Or do you think there are some long-standing issues
between them?

Quite simply the answer to the first aspect is yes and to the second 
no. Later in HBP, and as usual I do not have it before me, 
Dumbledore himself says that the argument between he and Scrimgeour 
did indeed arise from Dumbledore's refusal to allow Harry to meet 
with the Minister, at least he does not disavow Harry of this when 
questioned by Harry.

Q4: Is Mrs. Longbottom one of those who "seem reassured" by the new
security measures? What do you think she said that is hidden from
us?

>From what little has been gleaned regarding Augusta it would seem 
unlikely that she was reassured by the security measures. I am of 
the view that Augusta is a powerful witch and we will hopefully see 
more of her in Book 7. Her offspring became a respected Auror 
(Frank) and her grandson is turning out well despite early set 
backs. It would be wonderful to think that she said something along 
the lines of "Oo, I was so thrilled that Neville was involved in the 
restraining of the Death Eaters at the Department of Mysteries. 
Without him the day may have been lost, he is truly a credit to his 
parents and family."

Q5: Do these measures seem reasonable?

Not really. As Dumbledore says if he were a Death Eater he would 
have made sure to find out what his favourite jam was, and as the 
leaflets are undoubtedly also distributed to Death Eater families, 
and / or the Death Eaters would have access to them it seems rather 
a stretch to believe that the Death Eaters would not be able to 
circumvent the measures quite easily.

Q6: We later see the inferi that Voldemort left in the cave. In
what way do you think the DEs might *currently* be using inferi?

The only function we have seen is that they guard the Horcrux in the 
cave. That they can be held off by fire should be known to most 
competent wizards. Fletch is incarcerated for impersonating one thus 
inferring to us that Inferi are elsewhere also. 

What use could one have for a zombie?

The Inferi do not appear to move all that quickly so other than 
guarding objects and intimidation through the threat of using them 
they are not so useful. I do believe, however, that when LV referred 
to an army that all fear he was meaning the Inferi.

*Lightbulb* - Were the dead at the Bridge Inferi, placed for the 
purposes of making the Muggle world believe there had been carnage?

Q7: Is Harry's pessimism justified? Do you think he has reason to
believe that Dumbledore will not do as he says he will?

Was Harry pessimistic about leaving the Dursleys? I think not, it 
appeared as if he could not wait to leave and was looking forward 
with great eagerness to Dumbledore's arrival. Harry is concerned 
whether or not Dumbledore will actually arrive as stated, but there 
is no real basis for this concern. When has Dumbledore let Harry 
down (apart from leaving him with the Dursleys, not telling him 
about his history until the end of his fifth year, not mentioning 
the real reason why he trusts Snape etc. etc.)

Q8: What do you think of Dumbledore's behavior here?

Rather intimidating actually. He tries to force the Dursleys to 
drink when they have previously declined to do so. He uses magic 
quite cavalierly when making them sit down and banging the glasses 
against their foreheads and doesn't really give them much 
opportunity to speak. He assumes that they will have no qualms about 
allowing Harry to return once more and actually singularly fails to 
explain any of their concerns.

All in all rather rude and lacking in manners. He is a guest in the 
Dursleys home but acts rather as if he owns the place to sum up.

Q9: Do you believe that the Order will ever move back to 12
Grimmauld Place? Why not move someplace friendlier? Do they
secretly enjoy irritating Mrs. Black? <g> Is it because Phineas's
portrait, or something else that is significant, is in the house?

I don't think we will see a great deal more of the Order itself. 
Individual members yes, but the Order as a whole. I, however, the 
Order does remain largely intact and continues in its efforts to 
thwart LV then it would be more likely that it would meet at 
Hogwarts and not return to Number Twelve. This is not to say that we 
will not see Number Twelve again, we undoubtedly will when Harry 
retrieves the heavy locket obtained by Mrs. Black from the cave.

Q10: Do you think *anything* will bring Harry back to the house?
Do you think pleasant memories could ever change the atmosphere of
the house?

See above, answer to 9. What makes you think there are any pleasant 
memories at Number Twelve?

Q11: Is this just Vernon's normal reaction, or is it something more
significant?

Seems to me as if Vernon may be thinking that he could now be 
repayed for all the time he has looked after Harry with no further 
significance.

Q12: Harry does not give Kreacher any orders about discussing the
Order. Was this an error by Harry and Dumbledore? Or do Sirius's
orders to Kreacher still apply?

Just because this is not specifically stated does not mean it is not 
so. Think of the Marauder's Map at the end of Goblet of Fire. It is 
one of those things that is of little significance. The Order and 
its members must be known to LV through Snape anyway so there would 
be no real necessity to ensure that their identities remained secret 
any further. If they were known of they still need to be located to 
neutralize and I would be surprised if there were not a number of 
Fidelius charms still in effect. Kreacher has caused more than 
enough problems and it seems that, however grudging he may be, he 
has to follow all orders ever given to him by masters both alive and 
dead. That was how he managed to get out of Number Twelve in OotP 
and only by misinterpreting as he did then could he have any use to 
LV or any Death Eaters.

Q13: Why does Dumbledore say this now? Why not 5 years ago? At
this point, why say it at all?

A kind of farewell to them as he may know that it would be the last 
time he saw them in either of the scenarios where he is time 
traveling or where he has already set up his death with Severus. It 
also serves as a warning to them of what may be to come. This would 
be where the whole suspicion I have that Aunt Petunia will be the 
one to do magic later in life in desperate circumstances would come 
in, but I'll save that for another post.

Q14: Will there be consequences for either Harry or Dudley in
Dumbledore's having done this?

If the Dursleys give it some thought, which is unlikely, then it 
could lead to their becoming a little stricter with Diddykins, but 
this is quite unlikely based on their bewilderment at what 
Dumbledore said.

Q15: What is significant about Harry turning 17 or "coming of age"
that would cause the protection to end?

One day I hope to post a thorough discussion of this issue, so look 
out for that if you have the patience and / or inclination.

Q16: Why was Petunia "oddly flushed"?

Perhaps she secretly enjoys the link to her deceased sister and is 
rather upset at the prospect of losing her relationship with Lily's 
last surviving relative. Or she downed a lot of mead in a short time 
and took on a rosy complexion.

Q17: Do you think Harry will be allowed to return to Privet Drive?

He has to return for Aunt Petunia to do magic in extraordinary 
circumstances and additionally he appreciates that what Dumbledore 
has told him has rarely steered him wrong.

Goddlefrood with no comments on the overall situation of the first 
three chapters.