Standards of writing WAS:Etiquette WAS Re: polite Dumbledore?

[lupinlore]

No: HPFGUIDX 142750

> Carol responds:
> So if JKR, whom we know to be a Christian (and who has shown
> Dumbledore extending mercy to Draco and Harry preventing Black and
> Lupin from seeking vengeance) chooses Christian forgiveness ("and
> forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against
> us") over punishing characters for insensitivity or sarcasm, she's 
a
> bad writer with no idea how to craft a well-written and satisfying
> story? 

Lupinlore:
Absolutely, you have stated it exactly.  "And lead us not into 
insipid storylines, but deliver us from cheddar cheese preaching."

Carol:
I'd say, rather, that she has no intention of satisfying
> readers who thirst for vengeance, and that craftsmanship has 
nothing
> to do with the moral values implicit in a story.


Lupinlore:
Well, that's attempting to appeal to some objective standard of what 
makes for good writing.  The problem is that there is absolutely no 
objective standard for such things, despite all the thousands of 
pages that attempt to claim the contrary.  Writing is by its very 
nature utterly and totally subjective.  So yes, I judge JKR's 
writing subjectively, and make absolutely no apologies for that, as 
there is absolutely no other way to judge it.


Carol: 
> I'm perennially astounded by readers who see either the Dursleys' 
or
> Snape's treatment of Harry as worse than Bellatrix's Crucios or
> Umbridge's blood-drawing detentions. If we're wishing for 
vengeance,
> it should be against the truly evil characters, not against a
> magic-fearing family or a teacher who hasn't been taught that 
sarcasm
> is not a method approved by modern Muggle teacher colleges.

Lupinlore:
Well, Snape and the Dursleys ARE truly evil characters.  Snape's 
standing with regard to the war with Voldemort is completely, 
totally, and absolutely irrelevant.  As Alla and Nora have pointed 
out, ordinary evil is still evil, and if JKR does not clearly 
denounce it and show it being severely punished then, once again, 
she is a very poor writer who has absolutely no idea how to craft a 
satisfying and well-written story.  Snape, in particular, is so far 
into the darkness he couldn't find the light with a map and a pair 
of Zeiss binoculars, so, once again, I expect him to be specifically 
and severely punished for his unforgiveable behavior.


Carol: 
<snip>
> I think that if she resolves the main plot and the primary subplots
> without violating the laws of the Potterverse and maintains 
thematic consistency (as well as providing the excitement and suspense most of us are looking for) that she will have done all that is required for craftsmanship and a well-written story (assuming that the editors have also done their jobs in trimming stylistic infelicities).

Lupinlore:
Once again, not relevant.  There is absolutely no objective standard 
to writing.  All judgments are utterly and unchangably subjective, 
including what constitutes a "stylistic infelicity" 
or "craftsmanship" or "thematic consistency." 

Carol: 
> Satisfying to you and satisfying to other readers are not 
necessarily
> the same. I, for one, will be disappointed if Harry or any other
> character takes revenge on Snape, and I don't want the Dursleys, 
for
> all their faults, to be killed or Crucio'd by Voldemort. 
<snip>


Lupinlore:
You, of course, have a different subjective standard than I.  There 
is absolutely and utterly no way to get around that effect when it 
comes to writing.  The best one can do is engage in a political 
battle to forge a consensus of allied opinion.  But, since all of 
this is absolutely and utterly and unchangably subjective, I hold 
that I am utterly in the right.  If I did not believe so, I would 
change my opinions.

Carol: 
> As for Snape, what matters is surely where his loyalties lie and 
why
> he killed DD on the tower and whether he feels remorse and what 
role
> he will play in the battle against Voldemort. Any sarcasm or
> unfairness toward Harry is not only in the past but minor in the
> extreme compared with murder, mayhem, and war in the WW--all of 
which,
> IMO, Snape has been trying throughout the books to prepare Harry to
> face. Perhaps he was mistaken in his methods, but it's his motives
> that matter.


Lupinlore:
Absolutely and utterly "no."  Indeed, not only "no" but "(insert 
your favorite epithet) no."  Snape's motives are most definitely NOT 
what matter.  His methods are completely and utterly unforgiveable 
and indefensible, regardless of his intentions, and I expect that to 
be made extremely clear and severe punishment to be applied for his 
sins.  And once again, if he is not severely punished then JKR will 
have failed utterly as a writer in crafting a well-written and 
satisfying story.


Lupinlore