Etiquette WAS Re: polite Dumbledore? - cont'd

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 142764

Valky
Surprisingly, to me, my day has not gone quite as expected. I have a
few hours free now, I am happy to say, and I would love to use it to
complete my response to this thread. 


> Betsy:
> And here's the thing.  I enjoyed Dumbledore's rudeness for the most 
> part.  His wit was amusing, and I enjoyed seeing Vernon get cut down 
> to size and Petunia embarrassed.  


Valky:
I'm glad. :D and surprised not to hear this more often in this
discussion. I would think, and hope, that for the most part all
readers enjoyed this scene for it's wit and humour. I know I did, and
that's the more important thing to me in the reading of it, not
Dumbledore being perfect, but the book being enjoyable and
entertaining. Despite what might be apparent in my being partial to
discussing the blow by blow.


Betsy:
> It was the head banging that 
> bothered me.  I thought it a bit beneath Dumbledore, frankly.  It's 
> a bully's way of intimidation, and Dumbledore didn't need to resort 
> to it, I think.  It was the step too far, for me. (I do like to 
> think that Dumbledore was overcome with anger and behaved badly.  He 
> loves Harry, in his way, plus there is that guilt a_svirn mentioned 
> up-thread.) 

Valky:
I have to admit, I like that take on it quite as much as my own. It is
believable that Dumbledore was acting emotionally because: he *did*
love Harry, this is a well established fact about Dumbledore, and he
was emotionally affected by the way they treated Harry, he never tells
us *exactly* what he's feeling, but guilt seems like a good guess to
me too.

OTOH I don't think that the canon really supports that Dumbledore
intended to beat the Durselys over te head with glasses of mead. He
conjures the glasses for them to drink and in the beginning of the
spell the glasses hover in their reach, it is only when they make a
deliberate attempt to ignore the gesture from dumbledore that the
glasses begin "nudging them gently" on the sides of their heads. A lot
of time passes and Vernon beats his glass away before the glasses
become at all violent. So while I agree with you that violence is kind
of beneath Dumbledore I don't really think this is violence.
Dumbledore cast a spell on the glasses and the spell just kept doing
its job, like it was supposed to, which was to offer the Dursleys
their drinks. Yes I think Dumbledore found it highly amusing that the
Dursleys were exacerbating the spell to a negative effect, and I think
he didn't care because they were being very uncivil towards him by
their snubbing of his gift anyway. But I really don't think he was
ever intending the violence from the start. 


> Betsy:
> I did like his speech at the end, in that the Dursleys *did* treat 
> Harry badly and it was nice to see them called on it.  However, 
> Arthur Weasley's indignation when the Dursleys didn't say goodbye to 
> Harry [GoF 48] was more powerful for me.  Probably because Arthur 
> didn't lower himself to the Dursleys' level.  

Valky:
I found Arthur's scene that you mention above poignant more because of
his beautiful naivete. He utterly expected the Dursleys to care. Maybe
that can be attributed to his admiration of the muggles, in that maybe
he was under the impression that these simple folk must really have
big hearts since they survive and prosper without magic. For me a lot
the poignancy is in Arthur being disabused of his rose-coloured vision
of the world. And I suppose, also, us seeing the dear fatherly Arthur
take for granted that the love in his family exists everywhere. This
happens before Percy leaves the family too so it is involved in
Arthurs 'faint' character arc as much as Harry's.

I don't think Dumbledore lowered himself to anyone's level in his
speech to the Durselys. I think that this scene was as 'Dumbledore' as
it gets, per the chill that ran down everybody's spine when he took
his breath to speak. I do think we are just expected to take this as
100% ice cold peeved Dumbledore and nothing else. If it lowers him
then that lowness, I think, is just a part of him. I personally don't
think it lowers him at all.


Valky:
<snipping the last part because I think we have reached a reasonable
comprimise on that>

Now it's my turn to suggest a comparison. I can't take credit for the
idea because it was actually suggested by someone else. (Thanks Carol!
:D) My suggestion is that we compare the visit by Dumbledore to the
Dursleys to Narcissa and Bella's dropping in unexpectedly on Snape at
Spinners end. 

Narcissa calls on Snape very very unexpectedly. And Bella arrives with
her, striding into Snapes sitting room uninvited and snarling.  By the
rod some of us are measuring Dumbledore with Snape should have slammed
the door in Bella's face. But he instead plays the charming host to
both ladies, offering drinks and seats etc, even making a proper
toast. Narcissa then apologises for turning up 'like this', which does
suggest that she has arrived improperly in some sense. My guess is
that she means to apologise for arriving without announcement or
invitation.

aside:- You are right, Carol,  There is an extraordinary whiff of posh
from these pages I am looking at now <bg>

In general, I think that the arrival of the Black sisters at Spinners
End demonstrates the reception that Dumbledore expected to see when he
got to the Dursleys. Well perhaps not as warm, but the same sorts of
gesture - humouring the visit with a polite and customary few minutes
of your time and playing charming host even though you are caught
off-guard. Anyone doubting that this seemingly antiquated sort of
formal etiquette is written into HBP should read this chapter again.

Valky