Humor and Etiquette WAS Re: polite Dumbledore?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 142832

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_svirn" <a_svirn at y...> wrote:
>
> Debbie wrote:
> 
> > For those of us who read Dumbledore's actions as "bad manners"
> > the humor in the scene was harder to appreciate, although I 
> > recognized that the intent was not to portray Dumbledore as 
> > an ill-mannered person.
> 
> 
> a_svirn:
> Although I do agree with most of what you've said, I don't think
> you areright in this instance. I think that it's impossible to 
> appreciate humour of the episode without appreciating Dumbledore's
> rudeness. That's what makes it an example of the "comeuppance 
> humour" as you termed it – the disparity between what he does 
> and what he says. ... I do believe, however, that he went too
> far with it.
> 
> Debbie:
> > On the other hand, I didn't have any problem with Dumbledore
> chastising the  Dursleys for their appalling behavior to Harry 
> all these years.
> 
> a_svirn:
> Neither do I. Except that his timing leaves a great deal to be
> desired. It hardly matters for Harry anymore now, does it? But 
> I do have problems with the most powerful wizard of all bullying
> and humiliating powerless muggles.
>

bboyminn:

Well, Debbie has made several very nice points; re-enforced by
A_Svirn. Very true we don't all appreciate the same humor. And without
a doubt, Dumbledore was indeed using his own brand of
'passive-aggressive' manners to have some fun with the Dursleys, but
let's not lose perspective here.

First, as I said before, I think it was necessary for Dumbledore to
make his own /assumptions of courtesy/ because Vernon was too
Dumbfounded to react. On seeing Dumbledore suddenly on his doorstep,
Vernon just went blank. So, either they stood and stared at each
other, or Dumbledore took the initiative to move things forward. 

Second, apparently I have a completely warped view of what /bullying/
and /humiliating/ is. In his passive-aggressive way Dumbledore always
maintains a polite and courteous demeanor. While there may have been
an element of sarcasm involved, that hardly constitutes /bulling/ or
/humiliating/ by any definition, technical or working, that I am
familiar with.

Let's take a minimalist look at Dumbledore's horrible crimes.

1.) He took the initiative in courtesy when it became clear that
Vernon was unable to, and invited himself in. Note I said unable, not
unwilling. I still say that Vernon would have treated Dumbledore with
a polite indifference if Harry had given him some warning.

2.) Seeing as how Vernon was once again unable to extent the most
basic courtesy. Dumbledore offerred them a seat and a drink. What a
horrible thing to do; a seat and a drink, he should be lashed (he said
very sarcastically).

3.) He politely told the Dursleys that did a terrible job of raising
Harry. Extending the most basic courtesy and consideration to Harry
would not have cost the Dursely's a thing, and would have made Harry's
life more pleasant; note: /more/ pleasant, but not necessarily pleasant.

Now, let's talk about Come-uppance Humor. Dumbledore bluntly but
politely told the Dursleys that they shirked their responsiblity to
give Harry the most basic compassionate upbringing.

OH MY GOD! What vitriol, what horrible horrible vitriol. He politely
told off people who dearly needed telling off; what a monster! (Again,
sarcasm, in case you didn't get it.)

If Dumbledore wanted to give them their TRUE come-uppance, he would
have turned them into warty toad. That would have been Come-Uppance
Humor. As it is, he simply and politely told them off, a telling off
they very much deserved and more.

I hardly see any undo bullying or unwarranted humiliation here.
Really, I don't. He told them off politely, and they more than
deserved it.

Bad manners? Well it usually is a bit rude to go around telling people
off, but sometimes it's necessary. 

Yes, I agree Dumbledore engaged in a bit of passive-aggressive
courtesy. But the Dursley engaged in NO COURTESY what so ever.

I don't deny that there was an element of sarcasm in Dumbledore's
actions, but, really, let's keep a perspective here. What the Dursleys
did to Harry was bullying and humiliating, what Dumbledore did to the
Dursley was merely a bit annoying.

We all see it differently, and we have to accept that, but I seriously
doubt that I will ever see Dumbledore /bullying/ and /humiliating/
anyone in that chapter.

Steve/bboyminn