Standards of writing ( some minor spoilers for Ulysses and LOTR)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 142956

> Carol responds:
> As an editor and a former English teacher, I have to disagree. 
There
> *are* objective criteria by which to judge good writing. In the 
case
> of fiction, they include a fully developed plot in which events 
follow
> logically from what precedes them; clear, concise sentences with
> varied sentence structure; precise, concrete diction that enables 
the
> reader to visualize the characters, setting, and action; realistic,
> natural-sounding dialogue that fits the characters; and (most
> important) memorable and distinctive characters. 

Alla:

Carol, I had been thinking about this topic for a couple days 
because at first I was inclined to agree with you more than I was 
with Lupinlore (funnily enough :-)), but now I am afraid I am back 
to my agreement with Lupinlore, well, at least partial agreement. :-)

Again, my perspective is the perspective of the reader, the one who 
educated herself about the literary theory, but definitely not on 
your level, not on the academic level, I mean.

I guess I have to say that I DO think that there are quite common 
signs of genuinely BAD writing and by BAD writing I mean, I don't 
know - some of the very crappy fan fiction, which I open up by 
accident and may read a few pages for laughs. When I, non-native 
speaker, who makes quite a few grammar and stylistic mistakes, think 
that I could write much better than some fan fiction writers do, I 
think it is a pretty good sign that their writing is bad, although 
even on that level some people may disagree, I suppose.

BUT when we go into the world of published writing, I think that the 
things get VERY subjective, very fast.

You listed several criteria of the good writing, but my question to 
you would be who determines those criteria and who determines 
whether certain writer's work fits those criteria?

You list "fully developed plot" as first criteria. Several months 
ago I attempted to read James Joyce " Ulysses" ( I actually finished 
it, but it was quite painful for me :-)) Erm... if you ask me about 
plot of this novel, I really cannot answer, except two people 
walking around Dublin and stopping by different places. And I heard 
that this novel is considered to be one of the very best works of 
English literature. This was actually the reason I picked it up in 
the first place - I consider myself to be very well versed in the 
field of Russian literature, but in English/American literature I 
have so many gaps still and I am trying to do away with as many of 
them as I can. :-)
So, yeah, if you ask me what do I think about " Ulysses" ( am I even 
spelling it right?) My answer to you would be that I SO wasted my 
time reading it. I was not satisfied with it, true, BUT I also did 
not think that the novel was well written, because among other thing 
I could not visualize characters and setting at all.

Other criteria I want to talk about are "memorable and distinctive 
characters". Yeah, I would probably agree with you - FOR ME, it is a 
criterion which determines a good writing. But I think that it is 
incredibly subjective too.

For example , take Lord of the Rings. I DO love this book for the 
world Tolkien created , I really do, I love his language, which as I 
mentioned in my earlier posts sounds like music to my ears, BUT at 
the same time I find his characters except Boromir and probably 
Gollum to be quite BLAH. Now many people will disagree with this 
statement, but I do feel this way AND what most important for the 
purpose of this argument - it does not stop me from loving the book 
( the fact that I find most Tolkien's characters to be bland).


Now I actually agree with you a lot as to JKR's writing. Here would 
be a good time to thank Steve for his wonderful essay and to say 
that I agree with the most of what he wrote.  I think it is very 
good, because we can visualize the world and the settings, and 
especially because I can " feel" the characters, it touches me on 
very deep level.
At the same time, there are those who  think that her characters are 
often sacrificed in favor of the plot development. Now, I don't feel 
nearly as strongly as say...Lupinlore does on this subject. :-) For 
me, for example, recently much discussed Dumbledore's speech in HBP 
was enough to love the character all over again (for the most part 
anyway)and I REALLY needed it after OOP, but I DO think that Albus' 
character development suffered a lot in favor of plot development ( 
again, the best example to me would be his OOP speech obviously, I 
can also bring up him never visiting Sirius in prison, etc.) 

Another example of sacrificing  the character development in favor 
of plot development to me would be Lupin staying away from Harry in 
HBP. Now, do not get me wrong, I have very little criticism to offer 
about HBP, I loved probably 90% of this book, or more, BUT I do 
think that character wise it makes very little sense for Remus to 
stay away from the only child of his two best friends, who needs 
him.. well quite badly IMO. Now, of course Remus was on the mission, 
but was  the plot going to suffer a lot if Remus was not on the 
mission? Not in my opinion, but as JKR said in her opinion it is 
more interesting if hero has to do his job alone ( paraphrase) and 
here we have Remus on  the mission.

So, the opinions on JKR creating well developed characters could 
differ too. Personally, I love her characters and this is the main 
reason I read her work, probably, but that is subjective too IMO.

Carol:
<snip>
> If I could do so without abandoning professionalism, I would quote 
you
> some genuinely bad writing from a manuscript I'm currently
> editing--extremely wordy sentences, the same phrases (e.g., "he 
reined
> in his mount") over and over, pompous diction, unrealistic and
> unnatural dialogue, stereotyped characters, unbelievable situations
> (even given the fantasy genre) extended descriptions in purple 
prose.
> This is not merely my opinion of what constitutes bad writing. >

Alla:

I guess I have to ask again. Whose opinion is it then? Literary 
critics? Why their opinion should count as more objective than mine 
for example? :-) 

I want to go back to " Ulysses" for example. I think it has 
extremely wordy sentences, pompous diction, unrealistic  and  
unnatural dialogue. Do you think it is bad writing? I am quite 
serious here.



Carol:
<SNIP>
"Well-written" (determinable by
> specific criteria) is not the same as "satisfying" (a wholly
> subjective judgment).


Alla:

I actually think today that it overlaps quite significantly.


JMO obviously,

Alla, who apologizes if she was not clear enough, because her 
opinions on that subject are changing often. :-)