Power vs. Trust (was:The Possibilities of Grey Snape...)

[juli17ptf]

No: HPFGUIDX 143013

Lupinlore wrote:
> 
> Now, one thing I simply do not understand about the DDM position is 
> the bedrock claim that people just cannot stand the idea of 
> Dumbledore being wrong.  Why is that so very hard to swallow?  Why 
is 
> it so much easier to think that Harry, who is after all the hero, 
is 
> wrong and a fool (to put it at its strongest) than that Dumbledore, 
> who after all is only a secondary character, is wrong and a fool?  
> Harry is far from perfect (thence his charm) but Dumbledore is also 
> far from perfect. 

Julie:
Let's see...

1. Who can't stand the idea of Dumbledore being wrong? No one in the 
DDM camp has said that to my recollection. Dumbledore's been plenty 
wrong and has admitted it. He was wrong not to tell Harry what was 
going on in OotP, he was wrong to trust the Dursleys to treat Harry 
like a son (hey, how about even like a nephew?), he was wrong to 
trust Lupin would overcome the DADA curse, he was wrong to believe 
Tom Riddle could change even if he felt he must give Tom a chance, 
etc, etc, etc. Dumbledore's been wrong, and no one is denying it. 

2. Dumbledore is 135? years older than Harry, so he could be expected 
to have a little more wisdom and experience when it comes to judging 
people.

3. Dumbledore has known Snape for the majority of Snape's life. Harry 
hasn't. Dumbledore has also spent much more time with Snape than 
Harry has, and on a level of equals, as Harry has not. Logically, 
Dumbledore should know Snape a good deal better than Harry knows him. 

4. Nothing in Harry being the hero means he has to be right about 
everything. In fact, one component of being a hero in literature is 
learning and growing, coming to a better understanding of the 
surrounding world and the people in it. 

5. For Harry, who's seen only one side of Snape, and one that is a 
deliberately unpleasant student-to-teacher perspective, being wrong 
doesn't make him a fool. He's had limited information to work with. 
Dumbledore, having presumably seen many sides of Snape, as teacher, 
mentor, colleague, boss, confessor, friend, and perhaps more (there 
may yet be more connections between the two than we know), there is 
little excuse for him to be so completely blindsided by Snape's 
assumed reversal of loyalties. 

6. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Snape 
joined the DEs once, then *returned* to the Good side. If Dumbledore 
didn't fully investigate a man who once betrayed his side, making 
sure there was an extremely SOLID reason to trust him again, then 
Dumbledore is more than a fool. He's one very worthless general in 
the war, whose done incalculable harm to his side. 
 
Lupinlore:
> It is true that Harry being wrong fits certain traditional 
patterns.  
> However, Dumbledore being wrong fits traditional patterns as well.  
> Many childrens' books feature foolish and incompetent adults (sound 
> familiar?) who cannot or willfully refuse to see facts that are 
> perfectly obvious to the children.  Harry being wrong fits one set 
of 
> traditional patterns, whereas DD being wrong fits another.

Julie:
*Yawn* As you feel about Joseph Campbell constructs, I feel about 
idiot adults in children's stories. 

Lupinlore:
> 
> Actually, as I've said, I find all this one very persuasive reason 
> why Grey!Snape is a believable and likely outcome (regardless of 
> how "good" an outcome it would be).  Of all the !Snapes, it is the 
> one that allows JKR the most leeway to include expectations from a 
> variety of different models (reversal, growth in multiple 
characters, 
> several different morals of the story, karmic punishment, 
comeuppance 
> and poetic justice, redemption) in one package.  It also has 
> the "political" advantage of spreading the pleasure and disgust 
> widely across the spectrum of fandom (that way JKR can be sniped at 
> from all sides rather than just one). :))
> 
> 
> Lupinlore
>

Julie:
I agree with an earlier comment you made about JKR tying up some 
loose ends in HBP to please the fans. But these were *minor* points 
and inconsistencies that didn't affect the main flow of the stories. 
Snape's character and the resolution of his and Harry's relationship 
is an integral part of the main flow. I feel certain JKR had Snape's 
story written out from the beginning (as she did even for the minor 
characters) and that she's always known if Snape is good, bad, or 
gray--or how many shades of each. And I'm equally certain she isn't 
about to change something that central to her story to suit the 
wishes of fans (who can't begin to agree on this issue anyway!). I 
also doubt when she started this she expected such an enormous 
outpouring of fan debate over her plots, so she had no reason to 
consider "political" advantages of pleasing the widest spectrum of 
fans at that time either. 

Julie