The Possibilities of Grey Snape/Dumbledore/Harry

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 143066

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> wrote:
>
> Debbie:
> > Grey!Snape bears more than a passing resemblence (but is clearly
> > not identical) to something I posted last month, which I won't
> > repeat, but which can be read here:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/142005

> Jen: ... I particularly liked three components .. and feel they
> are important for this ever-expanding puzzle:
> 
> 1) Snape's fury at Dumbledore over his handling of the Marauders 
> after the Prank & designation of James as head boy, as well as 
> opportune recruiting by the DE's, sent Snape to Voldemort's camp. 
> Once there, Snape could play the role of the obsequious toady to 
> Voldemort, but could never really *feel* the devotion required. Both 
> father figures failed him, in other words. 
> 

bboyminn:

Jen, I agree with you as a whole, but differ on some of the specifics.

I've tried to avoid the Snape discussion because they are somewhat
circular and unresolvable. But I think some very key points are
brought up in this post.

On point 1), I very much agree that these early 'stings' to his psyche
are the key events that pushed Snape in the direction of the Dark
Lord. I'm sure here in the Dark Lord's camp, he thought he had found
some kindred spirits, some like-minded souls.  And, in philisophical
concept, he had, but Dark Lord philosophy is just a con to get people
to follow him. In reality, the Dark Lord is not about the superiority
of Pureblood, it's about power and control. The Dark Lord wants it
all, and he is willing to do anything to get it. And therein lies the
rub. 

While the words of the Dark Lord and his Death Eaters fed the part of
Snape soul that desperately needed to be fed, their action neither fit
their philosophy nor did those actions feed Snape's soul the way it
needed to be fed. I'm sure Snape had problems reconciling the random
pointless 'sport' torture and murder of innocent people with the idea
of Purebloods being superior beings. 

We know at some point, as I have always said and that now the books
agree, that the Dark Lord sent Snape to join Dumbledore's side. That
was no small task. He must have been very confident of Snape's
abilities to assign such an impossible task to him. Once in the
Dumbledore camp, and now as a long time adult, Snape saw a world that
was very different from his school days. An adult world in which
people respected him for his skill and ability. Suddenly as an adult,
he was getting the respect he never got as a kid, and from the very
people he thought never would or could respect him. He saw that while
Dumbledore' crew were not spouting the Pureblood philosophy of
superiority, they were actually living it much closer than Voldemort
was. In the Dumbledore camp, people were truly respected, and that
respect had nothing to do with gaining power, kowtowing to a
self-proclaimed 'Lord', or the pointless torture and murder of muggles.

Conclusion; Snape really did join Dumbledore's camp; he finally felt
trusted, respected, and accepted. Still, the most valuable mission
Snape could do for Dumbledore was to continue to appear to work for
Voldemort. 

> Jen Continues:
>
> 2) Snape was told by Voldemort about the plan to kill Dumbledore &  
> his own likely role in carrying out the killing prior to Spinner's 
> End. Snape had already relayed that information to Dumbledore before 
> faced with the UV ...
> 
> 3) Snape, prior to the UV, realizes Dumbledore expects him to be the 
> one to kill DD should it come to that, to protect Draco. Snape feels 
> betrayed by being placed in the Judas role, to appear to the world 
> as a traitor once again. His loyalty toward Dumbledore is tested by 
> this confluence of events.

bboyminn:

Here is where I don't agree, though I admit I can't prove my position.
JKR was very careful to make sure we could not determine Snape's true
allegiance. Personally, I think Snape was bluffing when the told
Narcissa that he knew the details of the Dark Lord's plan. Thinking
that the Dark Lord wanted to kill Dumbledore wasn't much of a stretch
though; everyone pretty well knew that. I think Snape said that he
knew to get Narcissa to open up and give him more details. 

I also don't believe that Snape and Dumbledore had a specific detailed
plan. Some speculate that Snape and Dumbledore /planned/ the Tower
incident, but that seems next to impossible since the bulk of the plan
was carried out by Death Eaters. The DE are not really going to
cooperate in any plan of Dumbledore's.

I think on a more general level Snape and Dumbledore had discussions
in which Dumbledore emphasized that the Plan to defeat Voldemort was
more important than Dumbledore's life, and that if the situation
should arise, Snape should choose his actions for the good of the long
term Plan rather than the good of the moment. So, no conspiracy, but a
general understanding.

As to point 3), again I agree in concept, but not in details. I agree
with the end result, but not necessarily the detail of the method that
lead to the end result. 

I think Snape very much resent being placed in the 'Judas' role. In
killing Dumbledore, Snape has set the wizard world against him for all
time. Even if Snape can come up with a reasonable explanation of the
circumstances, in the end, the wizard world will never forgive him.
So, Snape is well aware that in destroying Dumbledore, Snape has
destroyed himself  even under the best of circumstances. I think this
is evident in Snape's reaction to being called a coward by Harry. If
Harry only knew the level of courage Snape had just shown. If Harry
only knew just how much Snape had sacrificed for the sake of
Dumbledore's Grand Plan, Harry could never call him a coward. 

> Jen continues:
>
> Debbie:
> > I think Snape is left at the end of HBP alone with his emotions
> > and Draco Malfoy and a bunch of decisions to make. ...snipping>
> > This is why I picture Snape out there somewhere in his own 
> > private hell, trying to make up his mind whether to carry out 
> > Dumbledore's plan to save Draco or whether to go over to 
> > Voldemort and save himself. ...
> 
> Jen: ...edited...
> But you're right that the real, true test of loyalty will come after 
> Dumbledore is gone. When not feeling alternately comforted and 
> trapped by Dumbledore's faith in him, what will Snape choose?
> 

bboyminn:

Since Dumbledore was killed and Draco achieved his task of fixing the
Vanishing Cabinet which allowed the Death Eaters into the castle, and
thereby allowed Dumbledore to be killed, I don't think Draco is in
imminent danger of death. 

Certainly, he did as much as the Dark Lord could expect from a kid. I
think Snape will continue in his role as Spy. He will convince the
Dark Lord that he got as much as he ever had a right to expect from
Draco, and after a bit of punishment, Draco will be forgiven, and much
like Wormtail, will be put under Snape's care for the moment. 

That puts Snape in a very awkward position. Does he ask Draco if he is
interested in the protection Dumbledore offerred him, and thereby risk
revealing his own disloyalty to the Dark Lord; or does he just let the
situation ride and thereby allow Draco to truly go over to the Dark
Side? Something that at the moment, I don't think Draco is real eager
to do. But Draco is also caught between a rock and a hard place; does
he trust Snape enough to confess that he wants out? 

Snape's life as a double agent was probably pretty complicated and
dangerous, but that was nothing compared to what his life is like now.
He is THE MOST WANTED MAN in the wizard world. For the moment, he is
probably more wanted than Voldemort. Plus, if he really intends to
work Dumbledore's plan, his position amoung the Death Eaters is also
dangerously precarious. Before Snape spent all his time at the school,
and only had to pretent to be a DE for a meeting now and then. Now
Snape will have to spend all his time hiding from the Aurors, and
associating with only the DE's and the Dark Lord. Snape is very much
under a microscope now. The slightest misstep could mean the end for him. 

I do believe that Snape, miserable a person as he is, is still working
Dumbledore Grand Plan, and is willing to continue to work it
regardless of the consequences to himself. Ultimately, in the end,
Snape will prove his worth. Though whether he will live or die in the
process is hard to determine. In one sense, it would be a mercy for
Snape to die redeeming himself. Like I said, even with redemption and
a REALLY good explanation, the wizard world will never forgive Snape
for killing Dumbledore.



> Potioncat:
> > Jen suggests the Dark Arts have not tempted him. But they have! He
> > was ready to use Crucio and even Septumsempra.... Before HBP,
> > I thought there might be a shady area around Dark Arts and it
> > would easy enough to sort of slide into Dark Arts without meaning
> > to.
> 
> Jen: ... I've argued before that when Harry is in a rage he has 
> been tempted to try dark magic and that it's Not A Good Thing. 
> The previous context was referring to the temptation of joining 
> Voldemort.
> 
> Interestingly enough though, *Harry* doesn't realize he's been 
> tempted to use dark magic. The fact that he never confided the MOM 
> scene with Bella to anyone, and that only Snape was aware of the run 
> across the grounds, points me to the idea that Snape (or the HBP) 
> will end up being the one who overtly or covertly helps Harry 
> understand why he can't follow that path.
> 
> Jen

bboyminn:

Some very critical points regarding Harry and the Dark Arts. Yes,
Harry has tried to use the Unforgivable Curses. I can't help but
wonder what JKR is up to with that. Is she simply trying to show Harry
as a flawed Hero? Is she forshadowing something important? Enquiring
minds want to know.

In addition, JKR has never really brought Harry to task for being
tempted by dark magic, despite Harry's 'pure heart' being a critical
theme in the story. So far, no one seems aware that Harry has used or
attempted to use Unforgivables. I wonder what Ron and Hermione would
say if they knew? 

To some extent I blame Harry use of the Unforgivables on the
incredibly poor training he has been given. If I had a kid that I knew
would have to face a terrible fate, I would have started training him
specifically to face that fate. I think Dumbledore and many others
have wanted Harry to live as normal and ordinary a life as possible.
They didn't want to burden him with his dark fate. But in protecting
him, they have made sure that he is wholly unprepared to face that fate. 

Harry has been given a pathetic set of Dueling skills and resources.
If he had a full complement of Charms, Spells, Curses, and
Counter-Curses, and finely honed skills, he wouldn't have to resort to
Unforgivables. Given that all he has to work with are schoolyard
bullying jinxes and the Unforgivables with nothing practical
inbetween, they have really left Harry kind of powerless. When
schoolyard jinxes and curses aren't enough, Harry has no were to go
but to the dark and unforgivable. 

Lately, I've been fantasizing that McGonagall will ask Harry to
continue the D.A. Club in the next book. Not necessarily to come to
Hogwarts as a student or a formal teacher, but to simply drop by once
a week and teach the D.A. Club. 

This would help Harry hone his skills as well as helping the Student
practice self-defense during a critical time for needing that
knowledge. This also gives Harry, Ron, and Hermione an excuse to
return to the school frequently for research and private lessons, and
perhaps even Order meetings. 

To the last point, while I have no proof or even sound indications, I
think Snape will be instrumental in helping Harry. The Horcrux task is
near impossible, even when we factor in things like one of the
Horcruxes being at Grimmauld Place. I really don't see Harry having
either the skill or resources to find and destroy the Horcruxes, so I
can only conclude that he will get some substantial outside help from
somewhere. The only available candidate for that level of help is Snape. 

I'm not saying that the good guys won't help Harry, certainly they
will, but they are in no position to have the knowledge or skill to
solve the Horcrux problem. Help can only come from the dark side,
because only they have the knowledge of Voldemort that can give Harry
the shortcut he needs. 

Just one problem, how is Snape EVER going to get Harry to trust him?
Even if he acts anonymously, how can he possibly convey information to
Harry in a way that Harry will trust?

I'll be amazed if JKR can pull this off. There just seems to be too
many impossible tasks, and too many impossible to resolve plot points
for it all to conclude in only one book. 

And best of all, only two more years before we find out. Woo-Hoo!

Steve/bboyminn