Not getting this one.....

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 143263

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eileen_nicholson" 
<eileennicholson at a...> wrote:
> Jen, 
> I worry that I have missed your point because your confusion
> leaves me confused, so maybe I'm making a mistake here, but I'll
> have a go at responding anyway, and perhaps someone else can come
> along and sort us out :)

Jen: Hee, thank you for giving it a go because something you said 
helped tremendously! In fact, I'm going to skip to that part and 
rearrange your thoughts a bit.

Eileen:
> At this point Harry has the beginnings of compassion for Tom
> Riddle, but none for Snape. He is still one step behind Dumbledore
> in understanding what is happening and where he is headed. 

Jen: Aha! This is the point I needed to hear--Harry is a step behind 
Dumbledore. By the end of their conversation Harry is very clear 
about the prophecy, that it only matters because Voldemort acted on 
it and while Harry's choices are somewhat limited, they aren't gone.

But unless I'm mistaken, Harry still doesn't grasp the full meaning 
of his power to love and how it protects him. Dumbledore's journey 
is near the end and his understanding is beyond what Harry (and I!) 
can grasp in one sit-down chat. Dumbledore has lived through the 
experiences which make him greatly appreciate the 'incomparable 
power of a soul that is untarnished and whole'. Harry is still on 
the cusp of understanding, and the missing piece I sense in this 
conversation is the gap between Dumbledore's knowledge and Harry's 
experience. Until I get to read about the moment when Harry 
says, 'this is what Dumbledore was trying to tell me, I *get* it 
now' it seems incomplete. Well, and it should with one book to go!

Eileen went on to propose what Harry needs to experience to fully 
understand what DD told him:

Eileen:
> He'll presumably do this in book 7 by achieving an understanding
> of Snape (and, I hope, how the attraction of that power took Snape
> over to the dark side but didn't keep him there), in the same way
> that I presume James did when he transformed his hatred of the
> Dark Arts from a vendetta against all its perpetrators and rescued
> Snape from the werewolf in the Shrieking Shack.   

Jen: Transformation. I think this is a key concept to the whole 
story, given the alchemy symbolism, the phoenix--how will Harry be 
transformed by 'a force at once more wonderful and more terrible 
than death'? How will he transform his experiences from the base-
metal existence of life with the Dursleys to the gold moment of 
understanding what Dumbledore has been trying to teach him all along?

Discovering how James changed from the boy in the Pensieve to the 
man who saved his hated enemy, defied Voldemort three times and 
attempted to protect his wife and child from Voldemort would be a 
very powerful experience for Harry. I think this would be more 
powerful than finding out Lily, who seemed to be an innately 
compassionate person, cared about Severus from the start. Of course, 
the change in James could have come about because of Lily's love and 
compassion and that same force will change Harry when he finally 
learns about her.

Oh! And another idea. Miles mentioned this in #143248: "The relation 
of Harry and Voldemort will become THE topic of vol 7. And I
think, we will learn a lot about Dumbledores secrets, and some of 
them won't be too enjoyable for Harry."

Perhaps we will also see how Dumbledore transformed into the person 
Harry knows? Whatever information is left on Dumbledore, his family, 
the defeat of Grindelwald--perhaps some of what Harry learns will be 
to discover Dumbledore was just as flawed as Harry and made the leap 
that Harry himself needs to make? 

Eileen:
> Dumbledore is saying that Voldemort put the power to corrupt Harry 
> out of his, Voldemort's, own reach when he put Harry's parents
> beyond the sphere where his power of control has effect, by
> killing them. Harry now has a foot in two camps, so to speak, and 
> Voldemort, whose entire value system is based on one camp, cannot
> compete in this arena. Harry has resources invested in death, if
> you like, that Voldemort cannot draw upon, and every time
> Voldemort achieves the killing of another of Harry's protectors
> he gives Harry greater power.  

Jen: Interesting thought, Harry will actually be *more* powerful 
than Voldemort then. He was marked as his equal, but Voldemort is 
actually making him more powerful over time. I got this message from 
HBP, but your imagery of Harry having a foot in both camps, 
understanding or trying to understand what Voldemort never could, 
makes it even more clear Harry is about to surpass Voldemort in 
power.

Eileen:
> Every time Harry experiences the death of someone close to him he  
> becomes more reconciled with the idea of death. If it's the next 
> great adventure, and Harry as Dumbledore's man through and through
> is presumably coming to accept this maxim, then it follows that it
> isn't worse for everyone around him either; the only one who has a
> serious problem with it is Voldemort.

Jen: This part here bugs me still, just a tiny bit. I believe James, 
Lily, Sirius and Dumbledore were all willing to die for the cause, 
weren't afraid to die if in doing so they took another step toward 
helping Harry defeat Voldemort for good. But my reality might start 
getting sore from suspending itself if we find out pretty much 
everyone on the WW is willing to die for Harry to defeat Voldemort: 
Ginny, Ron, Hermione, Lupin, rest of the Order....I mean, they are 
all good-hearted people, and JKR has a way of writing things that 
make is completely believeable....but would everyone on the good 
side start to come across as unbelievable noble?

Jen, ageeing with both Pippin and asvirn in their observation that 
Snape is easier to hate as the enemy than Voldemort, who is somewhat 
of an unknown and an enemy difficult for Harry to imagine defeating.