Sorting Hat as Horcrux?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 143298

CH3ed wrote:
> > I really don't think the Sorting Hat is a horcrux. It seems very 
> unlikely that LV had learned how to make one before he graduated and 
> as far as we know he had had no access to it after he did.
> 
> MercuryBlue responded:
> The diary Horcrux, may I remind you, was created when he was
SIXTEEN. Nobody graduates until they're at least closing on EIGHTEEN.

Carol responds:
Forgive me, but your tone here (and elsewhere) is a bit harsh. There's
no need to get your back up when you disagree with someone or when
they disagree with you.

It's true that the diary was *written* when Tom was sixteen (the
memory that it contains is himself near the end of his fifth year and
he would have turned sixteen the previous January), but its original
purpose was to "continue Salazar Slytherin's noble work" of weeding
out "Mudbloods" using the Basilisk. It was not originally a Horcrux,
as *he did not know how to make one at that time*. (Also the only
person he had killed was Myrtle, using the Basilisk, and it's not
clear whether her death counts as a murder that will split the soul
since technically the Basilisk killed her.)

When he wrote the diary (placed the memory of himself in it), he had
not yet killed his father and grandparents, who were apparently AK'd
the following summer. He returned to school wearing the ring, which
could not have been a Horcrux or he would not have asked Slughorn how
to create one. Evidently the information he needed was not available
in the Hogwarts library, either, or he would not have needed to talk
to Slughorn. He *may* have discovered it the following summer (between
his sixth and seventh years), possibly by visiting Grindelvald (whose
single Horcrux it appears that Dumbledore later destroyed), but he
certainly did not know it and could not have created a Horcrux (either
the diary or the ring) before that time. He did, however, have both
objects in his possession and no doubt *intended* to make them into
Horcruxes: Both meant something to him personally and were connected
in some way with Salazar Slytherin; the diary, at least, already had
powers of its own, and the ring, being made of gold and not subject to
decay, was suitable as the first standard (noninteractive) Horcrux.
His soul, too, was already split by either three or four murders
(depending on whether we count Myrtle). The only problem was that he
did not yet know how to put the soul parts into the objects when he
conversed with Slughorn during his sixth year.

During his seventh year, at age seventeen to eighteen, he *may* have
had the requisite knowledge to create a Horcrux. Or he may have
acquired that knowledge after he left school to work at Borgin and
Burkes. There is some alteration in his appearance (the thin cheeks
and the eyes that glow red) when we next see him (at Hepzibah Smith's
house) obtaining the objects for two more Horcruxes, so I speculate
that by this time he has already created the first two Horcruxes, the
diary and the ring. The next time we see him, at the DADA interview,
his features are blurred, indicating that he has created still more
Horcruxes, presumably the locket and the cup. But he has not yet
acquired the snakelike features of the full-blown Voldemort, so he
probably has two more Horcruxes yet to make, one of them being Nagini,
who, it seems, is his true soulmate. (I think we're safe in assuming
that he intended to find the fifth object at Hogwarts and was
thwarted, and that he cursed the DADA position in revenge.)

I've stated before that I think the creation of a Horcrux, being Dark
magic of the worst order, requires an elaborate ritual along the lines
of the restoration incantation or the Unbreakable Vow (different in
not requiring additional participants or a potion but nevertheless, an
elaborate procedure requiring preparation, skill, and care. I doubt
very much if he could just point his wand at the sorting Hat and cast
a two-word spell like my invented "Creo Horcruxum!" 

Moreover, we've seen that the Sorting Hat has a mind of its own over
and above the "brains" of the four Founders poured into it when the
school was divided into four Houses. It's clearly not influenced by
Tom Riddle's thinking. (JKR says it has never been wrong.) 


MercuryBlue wrote:
> <snip> I'll accept that Diary!Tom is in a blank about anything that
happened after the creation of the Horcrux, but he MUST know what
happened after the murder(s) that allowed the Horcrux to be created.
His whole Chamber adventure, after all, was in between.

Carol responds:
We know the date of the memory Tom placed in the diary: June 17 of his
fifth year. At that point, he (or the Basilisk) had killed only one
person, Myrtle. So Diary!Tom knows nothing of subsequent events except
what Ginny has revealed about Harry. The memory of Tom who seduces
Ginny and Harry into reading the diary is not necessarily identical to
the soul fragment which is introduced into it later to make it a
Horcrux, but the soul fragment does give Tom additional powers that a
mere memory would not have had--not merely possessing Ginny to make
her control the Basilisk and kill the roosters but using her soul or
life force to give life and power to the otherwise insubstantial memory.

The soul fragments serve one purpose--to link Voldemort to the earth
and prevent him from dying. That's the whole point in creating or more
Horcruxes. The diary is the only Horcrux, AFAWK, that also contains a
memory, the only one that could be activated by someone writing in it.
It's also the only one that's made of a flimsy substance like paper or
leather; the others (except Nagini) are made of indestructible gold
(or silver?) and need to be hidden, protected from intruders like
Dumbledore or RAB who would seek to destroy them and release the soul
fragment to go beyond the Veil. (Or I'm guessing that that's what
happens--two of the seven pieces are waiting in vapor form for the
other five to join them. The whole idea of Horcruxes is rather vaguely
sketched, so we don't know for sure.)

For all the reasons I've already stated here or elsewhere (it isn't
made of a valuable substance, it isn't indestructible, it has a mind
of its own that hasn't been contaminated by Tom Riddle's thoughts, it
could not be tampered with without the portraits witnessing the
tampering, Diary!Tom sneers at it in the Chamber of Secrets scene with
Harry), I really don't think that the Sorting Hat is a Horcrux. I'm
not saying that it *isn't* one, only that IMO, it's unlikely.

And as I said earlier, the diary was not originally a Horcrux. It was
written near the end of Tom's fifth year, but it could not have been
made into a Horcrux until at least Tom's seventh year--after the
Riddle murders and the conversation with Slughorn, which apparently
happened in his sixth year (based on the narrator's statement that he
was by no means the oldest boy in the room, which suggests that he was
a sixth year but there were seventh years present). If the
conversation took place in his seventh year (and the older boys were
merely a few months rather than a year or so older), he could not have
 created the ring and diary Horcruxes until after he left school.

Carol, hoping for a courteous and respectful response