PoA - Snape knew?/Who is the real dark character in the series?

[whizbang]

No: HPFGUIDX 143527

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "colebiancardi" <muellem at b...>
wrote:
> > Whiz:
> > It's not so much interpretation as looking at the scene from 
> > Snape's PoV.
> 
> Colebiancardi: 
> And that is still interpretation. We don't know Snape's POV. I could
> state that Snape's POV is that he is terrified of Mad-Eye. That he 
> doesn't know it is really Barty Jr and that we do know that the real
> Mad-Eye is paranoid – snip

Whiz:
But that "interpretation" completely ignores a couple of things we
know.  For example, we know that Snape is capable of Legilimency and
highy skilled in Occlumency.  When he thought he was dealing with the
real Moody on the stairs, he was angry and self righteous.  It was
after the staring match that Snape's attitude suddenly changed.  Now
we've seen this kind of staring match before.  

Quote: PoA, ch 17
... Lupin caught them all deftly, then moved into the room, staring at
Black ...
... Black's face was quite expressionless.  For a few seconds, he
didn't move at all
... "But then...," Lupin muttered, staring at Black so intently it
seemed he was trying to read his mind, "... why hasn't he shown
himself before now?  Unless" - Lupin's eyes suddenly widened, as
though he was seeing something beyond Black, something none of the
rest could see, " - unless he was the one ... unless you switched ...
without telling me?"

   Very slowly, his sunken gaze never leaving Lupin's face, Black nodded.
... Lupin was lowering his wand, gazing fixedly at Black. 

Whiz:
When Sirius and Lupin engaged in a staring match, information was
exchanged mentally in what seems to be a form of legilimency.  Harry
tried to do the same thing in OotP.

Quote: OotP, ch 32
... Snape looked back at Harry, who stared at him, frantic to
communicate without words.
Voldemort's got Sirius in the Department of Mysteries, he thought
desperately. Voldemort's got Sirius -

Whiz:
(Another reason to wonder why it took Snape so long to alert the
Order. *rolleyes*)
This is what happened between Snape and Crouch/Moody on the stairs. 
Up to this point, Snape has been perfectly able to give "Moody" as
good as he gets, but his attitude takes a remarkable turn here.

Quote: GoF, ch 25
Snape was looking down at Moody, and Harry couldn't see the expression
on his face. For a moment, nobody moved or said anything. Then Snape
slowly lowered his hands.

   "I merely thought," said Snape, in a voice of forced calm, "that if
Potter was wandering around after hours again ... it's an unfortunate
habit of his ... he should be stopped. For - his own safety." 

   "Ah, I see," said Moody softly. "Got Potter's best interests at
heart, have you?" 

There was a pause. Snape and Moody were still staring at each other.
Mrs Norris gave a loud meow, still peering around Filch's legs,
looking for the source of Harry's bubble-bath smell. 

   "I think I will go back to bed," Snape said curtly. 

   "Best idea you've had all night," said Moody. 

Whiz:  Harry couldn't see Snape's face or understand what was going on
at the time, but we have other instances to compare this to. 
Interesting to note that earlier, Crouch/Moody tells Snape,
"I look forward to meeting you in a dark corridor some time...."
Is CrouchJr letting Snape know that he wants to meet with him?

> Colebiancardi: 
snip
> It is at this time Snape grabbed his own forearm, which has the Dark
> Mark on it (we don't know it yet, of course). However, my
> interpretation of the scene, from Snape's POV, is that he is afraid
> of Moody, he knows Moody wants any excuse to get him, as Snape was a
> DE – 

Whiz: And at this point, I agree.  I only brought this up to show that
when this occurred, neither we nor Harry knew why Snape grabbed his
arm.  That was something we learned later on.  Harry also doesn't know
about the staring/exchanging information, though we saw it in PoA.  He
didn't know what happened in PoA and he still didn't know in GoF.  Not
until he learns about legilimency and occlumency in OotP, does Harry
suspect that information can be transferred this way.

Colebiancardi: 
> This is a showdown between a person that Snape believes to be the
> real deal, IMHO, an ex-Auror who put away more DeathEaters than any
> other.

Whiz:
Exactly.  The change comes after the staring.

Colebiancardi: 
snip
> Yes, I will agree that Harry's POV is hopeless limited, which is why
> I am in the DDM!Snape camp.

Whiz: Sadly, I don't know what DDM!Snape means.

> Colebiancardi: 
snip
> First off, you didn't state that Snape was helping Barty Jr against
> Snape's will. 

Whiz: 
My mistake.  I do not believe that Snape works for Voldemort
willingly.  I also don't believe he wanted CrouchJr questioning his
loyalty to the DL.

> Colebiancardi: 
snip
> ... confused by your argument now about Snape would want to get
> away, when he knows Voldemort is coming. He has known it a long time
> and has told DD about it, with his Dark Mark getting clearer. 

Whiz:
Dumbledore has discussed the Dark Mark with Snape.  But Snape did not
tell Dumbledore about Crouch/Moody as Dumbledore is clearly shocked
when he finds out.  So Snape did not tell Dumbledore that Moody was
CrouchJr and Snape was protecting Dumbledore's office from intruders
while CrouchJr killed his father. 

Again, I don't think it's a question of Snape being loyal to either
Dumbledore or Voldemort.  I think he is loyal to neither.  It seems to
me that this is why we can never understand which side he's on.  There
is evidence pro and con for both camps.  But taken all together, I
believe the evidence points to Snape upholding Salazar Slytherin's old
Purification of the Race agenda.

> Colebiancardi: 
snip
> Nothing is said about eliminating half-breeds, to my recollection. 
> Just muggle-borns & half-bloods. There is a hatred towards 
> half-breeds, but Voldemort has not declared war on them yet.

Whiz:  
That's because he hasn't.  It's the pureblood racists who hate the
halfbreeds and muggleborns.  Voldemort gave up that agenda, "Salazar
Slytherin's noble work," long ago when he decided to pursue his own
agenda of world domination instead.  There are three distinct agendas
at work here.
Dumbledore works toward an egalitarian inclusive society.
Purebloods work towards a racist pureblood supremacist society.
Voldemort just wants to rule the world.

Snape, like many others, joined Voldemort when he was still preaching
the racist lines, but got cold feet when he ditched it to pursue his
own goals.  This is why we see Fudge, a racist, helping Dumbledore, an
egalitarian, against their common enemy, the nutcase who wants to take
over the world.

> Colebiancardi: 
snip
> Ron is a pureblood, so that doesn't count. 

Whiz:
As Ron points out, he's a bloodtraitor.

> Colebiancardi: 
> Yes, purebloods might tolerate half-bloods to get what they want, 
> eliminate muggle-borns, but after that? When does it stop?  
snip

Whiz:
That question is answered in CoS and HBP.  If they hadn't married
muggles, the wizarding race would have died off, as there are so few
purebloods left.

> colebiancardi: 
> That is the quote I was looking for. No, they didn't
> change their minds because Voldy wanted power for himself – I mean,
> what did they think, when he calls himself LORD Voldemort? No, the
> quote is and you did quote it – They got cold feet when they saw 
> what he was prepared TO DO TO GET POWER, not that they got cold feet
> when they saw he wanted power. See, even the Germans who may have 
> agreed with Hilter about the Jews, about moving them away into 
> ghettos and separating them into camps, if THEY knew that Hitler was
> planning to exterminate all the Jews, I doubt they would have 
> followed him. 
snip
> So, purification and extermination are two different things. 
> Voldemort's true colors were that he wasn't content in separating
> the 2 worlds – he wanted to eliminate one of the worlds completely.

Whiz: I agree that line can be read that way, and I do see your point.
But I'm not sure the rest of the story bears this out.

Quote: OotP, ch 6
Araminta Mehflua... cousin of my mothers... tried to force through a
Ministry Bill to make Muggle-hunting legal

Quote: CoS, ch 17
"Haven't I already told you," said Riddle quietly, "that killing
Mudbloods doesn't matter to me anymore? For many months now, my new
target has been — you."

Whiz:
Riddle only mentions mudbloods.  He sure abandoned Slytherin's noble
work in a hurry.  

Quote: GoF, ch 33
 You are still ready to take the lead in a spot of Muggle-torture, I
believe?  Yet you never tried to find me, Lucius....  Your exploits at
the Quidditch World Cup were fun, I daresay ... but might not your
energies have been better directed toward finding and aiding your master?"

Quote: OotP, ch 6
"... getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge.

Whiz:
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but nowhere do I get the impression that
Voldemort has any intention of putting anyone but himself in charge. 
He's not working for the cause of the Pureblood Supremacists or
putting them back in charge.  This would put him in an awkward
position as he himself, is not a pureblood.  Voldemort is only working
to gain power for himself.  His closest aides, the pureblood DEs are
his servants at best and his terrified slaves at worst.  They kneel
and grovel in his presence, and he counts loyalty to himself their
highest purpose.  He tortures them when they displease him and has
them killed if they try to leave his service.

  Voldemort doublecrossed the purebloods, who joined him in hopes of
gaining power, by enslaving them and concentrating all power in
himself.  And those devoted to regaining power for the purebloods,
Fudge and Malfoy for example, worked quietly and behind the scenes for
years to take over the Ministry and had possibly begun to cast their
shadow over Gringotts.  But Voldemort wasn't impressed.  His concern
was not that they pursue Slytherin's work, but that they look for him.

So while I concede that Sirius's line in OotP, ch 6 can be interpreted
in more than one way, I believe that the story supports the
interpretation that Voldemort was seeking power for himself.

snip, snip, snip

Whiz:
I am not convinced that Snape didn't plant the prophesies as well as
the corridor dreams Harry had in OotP.

> > Whiz:
> > The books suggest otherwise. Narcissa calls Snape, Lucius' good
> > friend. 
 
> Colebiancardi: Yes, she does call him that – and why? Because she
> WANTS something from him. You don't go and insult a person whom you
> are trying to get help from? And in this case, the request can kill
> Snape if he doesn't follow through. snip
> Not a very positive description of a "good friend". Narcissa is
> buttering Snape up, to get him to help her. 
snip

Whiz: 
This is why I've been wondering if Snape is Draco's godfather.  With
Lucius in Azkaban, it seems as though Narcissa would turn to Draco's
godfather for help.  Sirius' role as Harry's godfather seemed to
include taking the responsibility of a legal guardian.  Does Narciss
want Snape to fulfill the same role?  Is this another kind of magical
bond?  Is that why Snape agrees to take the vow? 

... Still thinking about that one.  Hmmm....

> Colebiancardi: 
> We don't know much about Eileen, that is true. But, she could not
> have been a big Voldemort supporter, as a) she married a muggle and
> b) we don't hear her name as a DE.

Whiz: An unattractive youngster at Hogwarts.  The general concensus is
that the man and the cowering woman in Snape's memory were his
parents.  But I can't count out the possibility of another theory that
the hook nosed man was Snape's grandfather, abusing his daughter for
marrying a muggle and bringing home a half blood child.  Why would a
witch cower before a muggle husband?  Even if he had her wand and cut
her off from the magical world while abusing her, why was Snape so
well versed when he got to Hogwarts?  In fact, why was he sent to
Hogwarts at all?  hmmm....  Either way, Snape, like Voldemort, had
reason to hate and renounce his muggle father.  Whether it was her
husband or her father who childe Snape saw abusing his mother, his
attitude toward muggles would have been extremely negative and he
would have every reason to work hard to excel in magic.  Did Eileen's
family go to Slytherin house as Snape did?  Interesting.  We don't
know if Eileen or her family supported Voldemort, but we do know that
Snape fashioned himself a new name, a royal name, just as Voldemort,
another halfblood, had done.  

> Colebiancardi:  
> I would argue that unless it is right there in print, that it is
> noncanoncial. You didn't change a word, but you came to conclusions
> that were YOUR interpretation of the scene. Flys, wasps = Snape?
> That is major guesswork. Which we all do. But it is your opinion and
> it is not canon. You don't know Snape's POV and you don't know the
> backstory – if you did, we all would and there would be no
> guesswork, which is what JKR wants. I don't mind people's guesswork 
> & interpretations – I do it and I enjoy it when others do it as 
> well.  But to state it is canon & all around? That is stretching it 
> a bit, don't you think?

Whiz:
Well, not all of it.  The thought that Snape is Draco's godfather is
fuzzy and was never presented as canon.  That is extrapolation.  But
the scene on the stairs I believe can be read from more than one PoV,
and if we look at it while considering everything we learned before
and after, that Harry wasn't aware of at the time, it takes on a
different meaning.  
As for Snape's animagus, there are buzzing insects mentioned before
the second prophesy and a corridor dream. The only time Harry has the
dream without falling asleep is in Snape's presence during an
occlumency lesson, though he may have been dazed by his fall.  Snape
is also present when Trelawney delivers her first prophesy in the
Hog's Head, which she doesn't recommend because of the bedbugs.  
Hmmm... I'll concede the insects could mean something else.  ;)