Eileen & Tobias was (What is poetic justice? WAS: Re:

[potioncat]

No: HPFGUIDX 143688

> Potioncat quoted canon: 
> <snip> "--a Hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while 
a 
> > small dark-haired boy cried in a corner..." <snip>
> > "He was sure he had just broken into Snape's memories, that he 
had 
> just seen scenes from Snape's childhood, and it was unnerving to 
> think that the crying little boy who had watched his parents 
shouting>
> was actually standing in front of him with such loathing in his ey
[e]s..."
> <snip commentary>


> Carol notes:
 More important,
> however, Harry's perception (provided via the narrator) doesn't 
match
> the actual memory. Since the memories are Snape's, I'm sure he's 
right
> that the child in all the memories is Severus. But he's *assuming*,
> perhaps based on physical resemblance, that the man in the earliest
> memory is Severus's father (and the woman is his mother). But note
> that his *interpretation* shows the "parents shouting" at each 
other,
> whereas the actual memory shows the *man* shouting and the woman
> "cowering." The interpretation does not match the memory, which 
Harry
> has seen only moments before.


Potioncat:
 One of Carol's strengths is her attention to detail. And this time 
it's presented a different interpretation than I'd come up with. As 
much as the Shouting Man/Cowering Woman scene has been discussed on 
this site over the years, I had never actually noticed the canon that 
I quoted above until I quoted it. And I didn't really pick up on the 
fact that it contradicted itself...sort of. 

In my mind's eye, I see a man shouting and a woman in a 
ducking/wincing/stooped posture, but silent. Then, with the added bit 
of Harry's reflection, I guess I thought, OK, Harry's glimpse must 
have included her rising up and yelling back. But Carol is right. 
That isn't what he sees. The memory in Snape's head is "cowering 
woman." (Of course, Snape knows who the individuals are, even if we 
do not.) The interpretation in Harry's mind is "shouting parents."

>Carol: 
> I do appreciate Harry's sudden (and brief) flash of empathy for 
Snape
> (too bad the Occlumency lessons didn't end with a better mutual
> understanding based on the common bond of bad childhoods), but his
> swiftly drawn conclusion that the man and woman are Severus's 
parents,
> though natural, is not necessarily accurate, and his view of the 
woman
> as shouting blatantly contradicts the evidence.

Potioncat:
So, stepping back a little. Why did JKR write it this way? (I 
snipped, but agree, I don't think JKR forgot what she wrote.) Is her 
intent to show us Snape's unhappy homelife? Is  her intent to confuse 
us about his homelife? Was the addition of Harry's thoughts put there 
to show Harry's compassion, or to mislead us?

I'm going to remind the list of another possibility. All rise in 
honor of Kneasy who thinks the boy is Snapes!Son and the the shouting 
man is Severus. If you look at the events in the memory, we have 
shouting man/crying boy; teen shooting flies; boy on broom. If the 
memories are in chronological order, although reversed, the man is 
Snape. If the events are in no particular order, the crying boy could 
be Snape.


> Carol,
> still sure for reasons previously stated that the man in the
> memory is not Muggle!Tobias but Grandpa Prince and not at all
> convinced that Spinner's End was Severus's childhood home

Potioncat:
I lean toward Spinner's End as childhood home because it fits the 
description of the plant in the dark. However, I would be just as 
happy with Spinner's End as his hide-out, but his real home Snape 
Manor just outside Snape Castle. (OK, make that Prince Manor.)


Potioncat: who really, really doesn't know, but thinks there are a 
lot of fun ideas out there!
>