[HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Hagrid and Animals

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 143692

Nrenka:
> Oh, it's not *that* innocuous; Malfoy 'happens' to not be listening
> (a delightfully obscure passive construction) because he and his
> friends are off "talking in an undertone"; Harry gets the distinct
> impression that they were plotting to disrupt the lesson.  Impossible
> to tell whether Harry's impression is correct, but this speculation
> about intent is actually in the text, as opposed to our own
> completely external speculations.

Magpie:

And?  He's not listening.  Perhaps his nefarious reasons for not listening 
make him even more "deserving" of getting slashed for his sins in a "ha ha" 
kind of way, but the fact remains, he's not listening when Hagrid says, 
"Don't insult one or it's the last thing you'll do" and Hagrid's not 
stressing it.

Nrenka:

 This is at the beginning of the
> lesson, where Hagrid is listing off Things That One Must Know.  It's
> not quite like losing your thread of thought during the course of
> listing 15 prepositional-object verbs in the middle of class.

Magpie:

Not that Hagrid presented it as being all that important and made sure 
everyone was paying attention and understood it.  Kids aren't generally 
assumed to instinctively recognize Things You Must Know.  All kids' (and 
adults') minds wander in every class--including Harry's--for good reasons 
and bad.  Snape teaches poisons and yet Harry isn't above planning a 
firecracker plan in his class. What happens to a kid not listening in 
Hagrid's class is just very different from what happens to one in Binn's and 
Snape's, in a way that does not reflect well on Hagrid. People certainly 
listen to him in class now, because they fear for their lives and know they 
have to protect themselves.  Snape uses this method too, I guess, by clearly 
hinting he will feed the kids' Potions that only their own antidotes will 
cure, or forces Neville to feed his Potion to his toad.  In Hagrid's class 
it's more for real.

Nrenka:
>
> There is an air of intent about the talking, and that's why I think
> responsibility adheres tightly to Draco for the whole thing.

Magpie:

Whatever Draco's dreadful intent, it doesn't effect what Hagrid's doing. 
Malfoy is the one who pays the price for not paying attention, but the 
stupid things Hagrid does are his own responsibility--and he winds up paying 
for them in the text too.

> <snip>

Nrenka:
> At least in how it falls out to me, my perceptions of what I think
> JKR is writing, I think the lack of active intent matters quite a
> bit.  It's indisputable that Hagrid does harm, but it's completely
> without malice--and I suspect that JKR plays the card of making the
> *actual* harm that he does fairly slight precisely because of that.

Magpie:

Yes, I think she does that with a lot of people, including Hagrid (and 
Malfoy himself).  Which is why there's no feeling, for me at least, that 
Hagrid will be punished further or anything like that.  But it doesn't make 
him a good teacher or make what happens in his class all down to Malfoy. 
Hagrid "pays" in the text by suffering the natural consequences of his 
actions in terms of nobody trusting him around animals. It keeps him from 
being a real bad guy, but also keeps him from being a responsible or 
successful teacher.  Hagrid's intent *isn't* really good. He's not trying to 
hurt anyone, but he puts his own satisfaction above everything else.

Sydney:

I love Hagrid to pieces, but saying what happened
was Malfoy's fault doesn't stand up.  If I put a 13-year-old with no 
experience up on a dangerous horse, and rattled off a list of instructions, 
and the kid got bucked off for not managing the reins exactly right-- that 
is MY fault, not his, and few parents or courts
of law would disagree.

Magpie:

Exactly--plenty of people do give lessons to kids that involve animals and 
don't deal with it like Hagrid does. And yes, it is especially odd given the 
Neville situation--Neville, who also screws up and does the wrong thing. 
Yes there are plenty of differences between the two situations, but some of 
them have to do with Snape's class being fundamentally safe and Hagrid's 
being fundamentally dangerous.  It's not about Hagrid being evil, but it's 
not like this isn't a basic part of his job.

-m