Fwd: [HPforGrownups] Re: UV = DDM?

[Mira]

No: HPFGUIDX 141020

--- juli17 at aol.com wrote:

> I'm not sure Dumbledore was giving anything away.
> Draco
> knows Dumbledore believes Snape is on his side, even
> if
> Draco thinks Snape is really fooling him. So
> Dumbledore
> reinforcing that impression by saying he had Snape
> watch
> Draco, and that he trusted Snape, isn't really
> making any
> difference, nor endangering Snape. In fact, it could
> be 
> Dumbledore's way of reinforcing his apparent naivete
> about
> Snape, so when Snape kills him that act will
> reinforce 
> Draco's certainty that Snape is really Voldemort's
> man.

Mira:
If Snape kills Dumbledore than I doubt any
reinforcement was needed. Definitely not in front of
somebody like Voldemort, who cannot understand that
there are worse fates than death.

Apart from that, yours is a valid interpretation.
However, I fail to see why dropping Snape's name, and
more, actually arguing for his allegiance to the good
side, was necessary at all. Draco is already convinced
that Snape has been faithful to Voldemort and he has
an excellent explanation for why Snape is following
him (the UV).

If Dumbledore knew about the UV, and still brought
Snape's name into the conversation, the only coherent
explanation I can see now is that Dumbledore was not
pleading with Draco, but rather with Harry, to keep
trusting Snape. But this interpretation is a little
skewed too, because if Dumbledore knew about the UV,
he also knew that Snape would kill him soon; if, in
these circumstances, Dumbledore wanted Harry to
continue to collaborate with Snape, then at least he
might have tried to make Harry understand that it was
not as much Snape's choice to commit the murder, but
that he was forced by the UV, and that him,
Dumbledore, was aware of it. So, either way, I don't
see this as making much sense. If Dumbledore's words
were for Draco then they were completely unnecessary,
if they were addressed to Harry then they had the
opposite effect than indended.

This might not convince you, but for myself, I must
conclude that Dumbledore probably did not know about
the UV. If so, is there any interpretation that still
absolves Snape? I think there is. Please bear with me
and I will try to compose it.

> Agreed. Even if the Ring horcrux wasn't killing
> Dumbledore,
> I suspect Dumbledore already knew he was going after
> 
> another horcrux (thus his need for Slughorn's memory
> to
> verify his belief that more exist). Dumbledore might
> well
> have expected the next horcrux curse would kill
> him--
> certainly it would be a strong possibility--thus
> time is
> of the essence. 

Most people assume that destroying a Horcrux somehow
damns the person who does it, but frankly, I don't
think so. We already have one example on the contrary
in cannon: Harry annihilated the diary and no piece of
Voldemort's soul jumped on him. The way I read HBP is
that Dumbledore injured his hand in his quest to
_obtain_ the ring, but that the next step, destroying
the Horcrux, was fairly straightforward. I believe
that the parts of soul embedded in Horcruxes become
one with the object bearing them, so that they cannot
survive outside it (and somehow infect a new carrier).

> Julie now:
> I don't know about boundless, but whatever *really*
> made
> Dumbledore put his trust in Snape, I believe he did
> trust
> Snape completely, at least on the issue of helping
> him
> with his plan to see Voldemort defeated.

I will touch this in the longer message I plan to send
... soon.

> When Harry told Dumbledore about the UV, Dumbledore
> said he already knew about it, in fact that he knew
> more 
> than Harry.

Not necessarily. Dumbledore said: 'You might consider
the possibility that I understand even more than you
did.' This is completely compatible with what he said
to Draco on the Tower: Snape would have told Draco
that he followed him because he made the UV to his
mother, but this was not the truth.

> I'd include the fact that Dumbledore didn't seem
> surprised
> by Snape's appearance on the tower or what was about
> to
> happen.

Well, of course he was not. He was expecting Snape to
follow Draco - on his orders...

I read the scene the same you did, at first. Now I am
not sure anymore. But we are on the same side in
wanting Snape a little redeemed, somehow:)

Mira