Harry IS Snape!/Snape to blame for Sirius death?/Reality and fiction(LONG)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 141119

> And Alla says:
> 
> > Well, except for the fact that Snape may be REALLY at fault for 
> > Sirius' death. I realise that possibility that Snape may be 
telling 
> > the truth in "Spinner's End" is not viewed as a strong one, but 
I 
> > think that it IS a possibility.
> 
Krista: 
> That's not the point of this particular debate, however--we're
> discussing the grounds on which Harry bases his loathing of Snape, 
> not Snape outside of  Harry's vision. What is being argued is that 
> *Harry* bases his hatred of Snape *solely* on the emotional
>  gratification he gets from it, and he knows it. (Hence the "Harry
> clung to this belief..." sentence.) Whether there are
> other logical reasons for an external observer to doubt Snape and
>  think him complicit in Sirius' murder isn't the point. The only
> accusation * Harry* throws at Snape is that he used nasty names to
> goad Sirius' temper. In short, Harry  wants to believe Snape 
guilty of
> murder *just because* he made snide comments. 


Alla:

To me it is relevant to this debate because  that would show that 
Harry's instincts are right, even though indeed  the only accusation 
Harry throws at Snape is the one you mentioned. I am just arguing 
against the idea that Harry's hatred of Snape is completely 
irrational, unsupported, etc.

Now, don't get me wrong, I would like Harry to be able to move on 
past his hatred of Snape, but NOT because Snape does not deserve it, 
I think he deserves every ounce of hatred Harry gives him, not 
because of one particular incident, but by totality of 
circumstances, so to speak. I would like Harry to do it for himself 
and quite honestly I don't have a slightest doubt that he would do 
it at the end.

If Snape did NOT give the information about Sirius to Voldemort, 
well, I still would not consider Harry's thinking that Snape is 
partially to blame to be completely irrational. Not because Snape 
helped to kill him in this instance of course, but because IMO JKR 
showed again and again how much power words have in her world, they 
can hurt really badly and they can even kill IMO and I think that 
Snape's baiting of Sirius did play the part quite well. 



Krista:
<SNIP>

In Harry's reflections
>  in that chapter, he doesn't bring up a single 
> logical argument to connect Snape with Sirius' murder--just that
> Snape didn't like Sirius and he made nasty comments that provoked 
> Sirius' temper. If Harry actually had legitimate reason to accuse
> Snape, that'd be one thing. But all he has, which he admits to
> himself, is the *desire* to blame Snape.


Alla:

I believe that by instincts Harry could be more logical than he 
realises, but even if he does not, well, as I said above I don't 
think it is completely irrational - Snape's baiting ( if it was ONLY 
baiting) of course cannot be the direct cause of Sirius' death, but 
it could  be the proximate cause of one.

But I think that somewhere Harry does say that he blames Snape 
because it is easier than to blame himself ( cannot find quote), so 
IF Harry's subconscious IS wrong( which I am not so sure about), I 
think he realises it already. 



>  
> Alla:
> > But as I said upthread - I will take what I can get. Whoever 
makes 
> > Snape suffer even for a short while , I am perfectly fine with 
it. 
> > (I don't have to say there that I don't advocate an eye for an 
eye 
> > in RL, etc. You know that, right? :-) But this is a beauty of 
> > fiction. I can imagine that bad guy ( IMO of course) will get 
his 
> > dues in most unpleasant way, because nobody will get hurt :-))
<SNIP>
 
> Unlikelyauthor:
> Ok, I get the smiley, but I am someone who tends to regard 
literature in the way of though experiments for what is and is not 
acceptable behaviour. While you say nobody will get hurt, I'm not so 
sure. While literature and real life are not the same, there is 
surely some element of crossover. I will accept that fantasy 
violence can be very funny, butI've to confess that I find the 
Weasley twins' behaviour (for example) monstrous. 
<SNIP>


Alla:

Welcome to the list! :-)

I actually agree with you more than you think. :-) Let me clarify. I 
LOVE discussing Potterverse in connection with RL, I think that 
putting magic factor aside, JKR writes series which do reflect  the 
reality in many ways. Sometimes it is an ugly reflection, sometimes 
very charitable one, but I think and I said it many times, I think 
those  are books about people,who just happen to be wizards, not 
vice versa.

I was commenting on MY attitudes about the fictional character, NOT 
that I find the fictional violence funny all the time, to be honest 
sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Ugh, I am starting to loose my 
point. I guess what I am saying is that I can afford to hate 
fictional villains full stop, while in RL I always, always try to 
remember that hate is NOT a good thing and work really hard on not 
doing so ( not saying that I am always succesful, but  I do try).


And it is actually an interesting point about the more we consider 
the characters to be real, the less it is acceptable to hurt them. I 
would say yes, unless this is a punishment ( to me in any event).

I think it is very relevant to the Twins actions. In RL I would find 
some of his actions to be hullying for sure, but Dicentra once wrote 
an amazing post about Toons . Here is the link, but I love the idea 
that Twins never hurt three dimensional characters.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43083

The post is called "Who Framed Fred and George?" it is written in 
the middle of fascinating discussion of "whether Twins are bullies". 
There are some fantastic Elkins' posts there, which argue that Twins 
are bullies. Highly recommended, IMO.

I think that after HBP, if Twins were to hurt Draco, I would think 
about it completely differently, NOT because Draco became a good 
guy, ( to me he is SO far from being a good guy yet), but because he 
became more Real!Character so to speak.

Am I making any sense at all?

JMO of course,

Alla