Harry IS Snape!

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 141123

 

Julie earlier:
> Read: Harry KNOWS that his perspective on  Snape is out of whack,
<snip> to the point that he argues with
>  Dumbledore over fetching Snape when he *knows full well* that   
Snape
> has already saved saved Dumbledore from one horcrux curse.  <snip>

Alla:

Erm... I think that  whether Harry's  perspective on Snape is out of 
whack is really, really remains to be  seen.

And as to Harry's reluctance to fetch Snape, well, he may be not so  
wrong, IMO. I mean, unless you are convinced that DD was dying, 
which I  am not, then we have alive DD before Snape came and dead DD 
afterwards.  


Julie again:
I was speaking of Harry's perspective before the  Tower scene. He

admits to himself that he blames Snape just because it feels good.
His hate and rage in Chapter 8 are out  of proportion to Snape's 
crimes *as he knows them at that time.* Whether his opinion of
Snape as evil turns out to be true, Harry put the horse before the
wagon (or is that the other way around?). He hated Snape with
a consuming passion to the point of hoping Snape would die,  all
before he had a rational reason to do so (since the prophecy
revelation and Snape's AK of Dumbledore came later).
 
My point about Harry not getting Snape right away is that 
Harry's feelings are overwhelming his rational brain. Instead 
of focusing on the facts--Dumbledore is clearly ill, Snape 
saved him from the previous horcrux (and barely at that), and
Harry has no clue himself what is involved in recovering
from a horcrux curse without adverse effects--Harry focuses
on his hatred of Snape. That gets in his way. Granted, not
for long, as Harry does agree to get Snape the second time
Dumbledore asks, but it's still the kind of reaction that could
well trip him up when he faces Voldemort. (And the fact that
Snape would shortly AK Dumbledore is a moot point. All
Harry knows at this moment is that Dumbledore went through
hell in the cave, and Snape has direct experience with horcrux
curses. Ergo, get Snape and don't argue. ;-)


Julie earlier:
<HUGE SNIP>
The big question, the issue  that I think is going to
> prove one of the most critical in HP, and  deliberately so on the 
part
> of JKR, is whether adult Harry will  become adult Snape.
<SNIP>
> If this is to be a central  issue/theme of HP, it does require  
that 
> Snape be DDM or at  least OFH, and because this theme *has*
> been set up so obviously in  Chapter 8 with Harry's unreasonable
> hatred of Snape, I think this whole  scene is another strong  piece
> of support for DDM!Snape. If Snape  turned out to be ESE  as Harry
> suspected all along--sometimes  *irrationally* by his own tacit 
> admission--then Harry has little  opportunity to willingly  release 
this  
> destructive and  misplaced hatred against a man who hasn't earned
> that level of enmity  (don't scream, Snape-haters-we're talking 
about
> Harry's feelings  through HBP Chapter 8!). 


Alla:

I completely disagree. it  would be VERY satisfying to me if Harry 
forgives the man who is truly guilty  of all the things he said in 
Spinner's End. I think it would be much harder  for Harry to do so 
than to acknowledge Snape's positive actions if there are  any

No, Snape who helped made Harry an orphan, Snape who killed Harry's  
mentor in front of Harry's eyes is REALLY hard to forgive and if 
Harry  manages to do so, I think he can truly call himself a hero.
 
Julie again:
Snape who helped make Harry an orphan--or at least set in motion
some of the events that led to that outcome--is already canon. So
is Snape who killed Harry's mentor in front of Harry's eyes--just
that he doesn't know *why* Snape did it yet. Snape's done more
than enough to Harry to make forgiveness difficult, even if Snape
is DDM. And if Snape is DDM, that adds another realization  
for Harry, that people are not always GOOD or BAD. Just as 
Dumbledore could be a wise, kind man, but act ruthlessly if
necessary (sending Harry to live with the Dursleys), so Snape 
can be a bitter, vindictive man who may act selflessly to save 
Harry (as an example).


> Marianne:
> As always, an interesting post.  However, where  in this view of 
Snape, does Snape's tale of remorse come in?  If he has  firmly held 
onto his hatred of James from school age through the  present,
(which  I agree he has, like a barnacle to a hull) then it  seems like
the remorse he told Dumbledore about is a somewhat selective  
remorse, if  indeed it existed at all. And for me, that still  calls
into question  how much Snape can be believed.  

Pippin:

The one place I disagree with Julie's excellent post is  the idea that
Snape wouldn't have been sorry to learn that James was dead.  
Hatred, no matter how irrational, is not the same thing as wanting 
to  kill someone. No one would deny that Harry hates Draco; all the 
same Harry  was horrified by the result of his spell and surely would 
have been sorry if  Draco had died -- not because he cared about
Draco but because Harry did not  want to be a killer.

Quirrell distinguishes between those who hate and  those who
are willing to kill:

"But Snape always seemed to hate me so  much."
"Oh, he does," said Quirrell casually, "heavens, yes. He was at  
Hogwarts with your father, didn't you know? They loathed 
each other. But  he never wanted you _dead_."

Is  it such a stretch to think that  despite trying to get James
expelled, and hexing him whenever he got the  chance, 
despite joining the Death Eaters, Snape did not want to kill  
James?
 
Julie now:
In fact I did note in my post that Snape didn't want to murder
James, any more than Harry plans on murdering Snape. But
it is very easy to *wish* someone dead, as Harry does Snape.
It's another thing entirely to want to kill that person, or to  realize
you have contributed to their death. 
 
Pippin:
Bella has her doubts about whether Snape has what it  takes...
"you were once again absent while the rest of us ran  dangers"
"the usual slithering out of action" Though surely Snape  hated
Sirius as much as he hated James, he didn't think, even in  PoA
that  he had reason to kill him, "Give me a reason and I swear 
I  will" despite the fact that he believed Sirius was a Death Eater,
a traitor,  a murderer, and had once  tried to kill *him*.

Perhaps teenaged  Snape, like Draco, fancied he could become 
a killer, but was revolted  when  faced with the reality.

Julie:
I think you nailed it, Pippin. Snape became a DE, but we don't 
have any evidence that he actually killed anyone. In fact, Bella
makes it sound like he had a solid history of "slithering" out  of
the dirty work. I can see Snape coming to Voldemort with his
Potions skills and his talent for snooping, alternating between 
brewing elixirs of life for Voldemort and skulking around for
information (as when he overheard the prophecy). But once
he had to face the reality of the actual killing, he balked and
realized it wasn't in him. And perhaps that moment of clarity
came when he realized what Voldemort planned to do with 
the prophecy information.
 
 
Marianne:
I'm not saying that Snape wanted to kill James himself.   I just 
don't buy that he was seized with regret once someone else killed  
James. 

Yes, Snape may very well not wanted to raise his wand and  perform an 
actual murder.  Bella may be right about him and he has  managed to 
avoid some of the messier actions of DEs.  He may even be  revolted 
by the idea of killing.  However, he seems to have okay with  passing 
on the words of the prophecy, which he must have known would put  
other people in mortal danger. 

The idea that Snape would have no  regrets about nameless people he 
has put in danger, but suddenly change  sides in a war once his 
nemesis was killed doesn't click with me. Given the  history between 
James and Snape, I find it hard to swallow that, in the  midst of 
this horrific, years-long war, when all sorts of people were dying  
and disappearing, Snape would suddenly find himself in a fit of 
remorse  over the death of his long-time enemy.


Julie now:
I'm not sure Snape did recognize he was putting people in mortal 
danger. I think he was just eager to do his job for Voldemort, not
really thinking ahead about where it would all lead. Of course he
should have known, but the abstract concept is much easier to
dismiss than the cold, hard facts. Once Voldemort told him it
meant the Potters, and that he was going to kill them, putting
names and faces to it brought that reality into harsh focus. 
If Voldemort had named another Wizard family, I think Snape
would still have been hit in the gut by the reality of what he'd
done. I don't know if he would have followed the same path
to Dumbledore, but I think he would have left LV, perhaps to 
meet up with a fate similar to Regulus Black's.
 
BTW, do we know exactly how long Snape was with the DEs?
 
Julie 





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