Trial of Severus Snape - WAS Re: Harry IS Snape.

[colebiancardi]

No: HPFGUIDX 141336

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eggplant107" <eggplant107 at h...>
wrote:
>
> "colebiancardi" <muellem at b...> wrote:
> 
> > you are forgetting a little thing called
> > the Unbreakable Vow that Snape took.  
> I certainly haven't forgotten about that vow!

according to your original post to which my response was for, it seems
you did.  You stated Snape could have taken out the DE's.  Hence, my
comment. 

> Outside of Dumbledore's> murder itself that vow is the best evidence 
>we have that Snape is more> than nasty and unpleasant, he is evil.

Really?  Evil?  If anything, I think he lacked some foresight - I
don't believe he saw the third part of the vow coming.  However, it
may have been what DD ordered Snape to do - to win & cement the
Malfoy's trust in Snape.  The UV did that. 

> I>hope you're not suggesting
> that we should forgive Snape because his hands were tied due to that
> vow he choose to make so he had to murder Dumbledore. It's like a man
> killing his parents and then asking the court for mercy because he's
 an orphan. 
>
No, because what happened in the tower is nothing at all like a person
killing their parents & asking mercy for it.   We don't know the whole
story up in the tower yet.  It could be as black & white as you paint
it, or it could be more complex.  So far, Rowling's explainations have
been complex - that things aren't what they seem to be.  And Snape is
not all he seems to be.  What he is, we don't know.  I am going by all
the things he has done in the past and DD's word(he trusts Snape).  I
see it outside of Harry's POV.  As do many others.

> 
> > how could you not see what would happen on
> > the tower if Snape hadn't done what he did? 
> 
> If Snape had not made that vow Dumbledore would be alive and the Death
> Eaters dead.

maybe, maybe not.  If Snape is as truly evil as you stated, he would
have still killed DD, regardless of the vow.  The vow is what makes
this scene tricky.  If there had been no vow, and Snape killed
Dumbledore, then I would be more in your camp.  

> 
> > Hard choices in War. 
> 
> But not hard enough. Dumbledore seemed willing to risk EVERYTHING to
> save a slime ball like Draco, but if your theory is correct he didn't
> seem to give a damn about Harry, or Snape for that matter, because he
> kept Harry in the dark, again. Dumbledore must have known Harry well
> enough by now to know he would never rest until Snape was dead.

I wouldn't say that DD doesn't give a damn about Harry or Snape. 
Harry's soul is not in danger.  Draco's is. Draco was trying to kill
DD - putting his soul at risk.  Snape is a spy and my thoughts on why
DD has Snape protect Draco is that Snape's soul is already been
tampered with, from his days as a DE.  Snape's role, IMHO, is to
protect & clear the path for Harry to take on Voldemort, regardless of
the further damage it will do to his(Snape's) soul.  Since Harry is an
open book to Voldemort(can't hide his feelings), perhaps it is best,
for now, that Harry does not know Snape's true role.  It would risk
everything that DD & Snape have fought for up until now.  

> 
> > DD is a wise wizard who probably knows more
> > about the situation up on the tower better
> > than Harry. 
> 
> I don't think so. Dumbledore was very surprised to find Death Eaters
> in the castle that night but Harry was not, Harry was expecting it, he
> even knew the room the trouble would come from.

The situation up on the tower that I was referring to is the
interaction between Snape & Dumbledore.  

> 
> > Most of DD's mistakes have not been that huge, IMHO. 
> 
> Dumbledore hired Quirrell, in fact he hired 4 homicidal teachers in 6
> years. Dumbledore had no idea what Harry's father and his friends were
> up to. Dumbledore froze Harry on that tower. Dumbledore trusted
> Snape [....] 
> 
> And speaking of Quirrell, Snape suspected him from day one and then at
> the Quidditch game when Harry almost died he knew for sure, but
> apparently he never said a word about it to Dumbledore. In most
> schools a teacher trying to murder a student is frowned on, yet
> Dumbledore took no action against him, he even left the school leaving
> Harry no protection against Quirrell. To the day he died I don't think
> Dumbledore ever knew Quirrell tried to kill Harry at that game because
> Snape never told him. Why?   

How do we know that Snape never told DD about Quirrell?  Besides that,
Snape didn't know that Quirrell was actually QuirrellVort, Snape just
thought Quirrell was a Dark Wizard.  DD does a lot of things in the
series that puts Harry in danger - could it be some sort of training
for the final showdown with Voldemort?  Also, if DD was always hanging
around, there would be no Harry Potter series :)

> 
> > He could not control Sirius from going
> > to MoM - was that a mistake?
> 
> Yes, a HUGE mistake as Dumbledore himself admits. If Dumbledore had
> not kept Harry in the dark about the Prophecy neither he nor Sirius
> would have any reason to go to the ministry and Sirius would be alive
> today. 

Again, people make mistakes, but again, I don't think DD has stepped
over any line.  Sirius knew better as well, but he went anyway.  If
Harry knew the Prophecy earlier in his life, what type of choices
would he have made?  The thing is, as we learned in book 7, it didn't
matter if Harry knew the prophecy or not - Harry would still be on a
quest to defeat Voldemort, because he murdered Harry's parents.  

> 
> > Yes, DD has made mistakes, but to have a 
> > colossial mistake in judgement, over 16 
> > years, with Snape is more than a mistake
> > it makes DD a foolish, unwise wizard. 
> 
> If it makes you feel any better, Snape is a very very smart man and I
> think he fooled Voldemort just as badly as he fooled Dumbledore.
> 

Well, I think Snape & DD are very smart and I think Snape's role as
the bad guy is fooling Harry quite nicely.  Harry isn't as wise on
people just yet.  Or least the actions of adults. He is still a kid,
and children tend to view things pretty black & white, although
Hermoine seems to be the exception to that rule in this series.  

colebiancardi.