Trial of Severus Snape /Harry IS Snape./A cold equation (LONG)

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 141404

> Pippin:
> Seems to me we need to get the variables nailed down here, because
> there is a vast opportunity to play fast and loose.
> To wit, Snape was an idiot to take the vow, except that some are 
> arguing that there must have been a way to outwit it, in which 
case, 
> he wouldn't have been an idiot to take it. ( And if he wanted to 
kill 
> Dumbledore anyway, why should he have been twitchy about it?)

Alla:

Erm... You are not referring to me arguing that UV can be outwitted, 
I hope? :-) Because I only argued that we don't know the mechanics 
of how fast the UV magic kicks in, basically how soon it will 
recognise that Snape indeed does not want to finish Dumbledore off 
while pretending doing something else.
To wit - I have no doubt that Snape would eventually drop dead, I am 
just not sure when exactly it happens. Say, if he sends Patronus to 
Order members  the second he walks on the Tower, while not doing or 
saying anything else,w hich would point out that he wants to protect 
DD, does it count as breaking the UV or not? I am not sure that it 
does.


Pippin: 
> Consider also that if he refused to take it, Bella and Narcissa 
would
> have had to kill him  lest he reveal their treachery to his master.
> Surely it was more important to survive and warn Dumbledore that
> there was a plot than to die in a useless gesture of loyalty?

Alla:

Why is that? Narcissa is not betraying Voldemort, even though she is 
sort of goin against his orders,she is not saying that the task 
should be abandoned or anything like that, she just wants Snape to 
help out , so to speak. Would you argue then that Bella should kill 
Narcissa first and foremost, since she does not want her to tell  
the story in the first place?

I think that Snape would have been able to come out smelling like a 
rose , had he been able to stop poor hysterical Narcissa from 
talking, actually, but I don't think that Voldie would have been 
that upset by her talking in any event. JMO, of course,

> Pippin:
> So, um, Snape wasn't a hero for saving Harry from Quirrell's
> curse because that's what any responsible adult should do, but
> he should suffer remorse and go to Azkaban and Dumbledore's 
> ghost should haunt him forever, because he should have let
> Draco die. Somehow, I don't think Dumbledore would want that.

Alla:

Erm... No, Pippin. Snape should go to Azkaban, because I don't think 
that taking the UV in the first place was  the action of the 
responsible adult. THAT, IMO was lead to events on the Tower and I 
can see no corcumstances under which taking the UV was the right 
choice to make. That is why I CAN see  some mitigating circumstances 
for the Tower, as in Snape being trapped by his own idiocy, but I 
cannot see Snape being a Heri on the Tower at all. Again, just me.




> Alla writes:
>  
> >I am still not getting why Dumbledore's death  HAS to be 
inevitable? <snip>

Ray: 
>  
>   In a larger, story-based sense, Dumbledore's death was  
inevitable.  The 
> near-omnipotent mentor must be removed from the  picture in order 
for the 
> student/hero to reach his own  full potential.  <snip>


Alla:

Yes, I realise that, "hero journey formula", etc. In that sense 
Dumbledore's death WAS inevitable, although I share Lupinlore's 
sentiments  in that aspect. I wish JKR would step away from the 
formulas a bit and ledt Dumbledore's live, NOT to do Harry's job, 
but to provide him with some support. Somehow I think that the story 
could have been not less interesting if Dumbledore'[s character was 
still there.

But in any event I was NOT talking about that sense at all, just 
about Dumbledore's death as dictated by plot development.


Ray:
>   As to whether Dumbledore's death from the horcrux potion was  
inevitable, I 
> doubt it.  If the DE attack had not been that night, I have  no 
doubt that 
> Snape could have cured Dumbledore, at least partially.  My  
biggest question is 
> why it never occurred to Harry to help DD by "sticking a  bezoar 
down his 
> throat".


Alla:

Yes, absolutely. This is what I think as well. I don't think that it 
is a given that the potion was deadly or at least without antidote. 
And it is a GREAT point about bezoar. :-) I guess Harry just did not 
realise that potion was THAT bad in the first place. I also wonder 
why Snape did not bring some bezoar with him, but that brings me to 
point made by Eggplant


Colebiancardi:
> The one thing that I can glean from her interview, as she doesn't 
want
> to give too much away, is that there is someone else who is DD's
> confidante, his partner.  she states that more will be revealed in
> book 7, so I am wondering if Snape was that confidante - afterall, 
we
> had that argument in the Forest between Snape & DD according to
> Hagrid.  

<SNIP>


Alla:

OK, I am REALLY curious now. You read this interview as if 
Dumbledore HAS  a confidante? Could you please point to me where she 
says so? In the quote which had been brought UP (IMO, anyways), she 
says that Dumbledore's intelligence and wisdon isolated him and he 
never ever had a confidante. That is one of the strongest reasons 
why I don't believe in Snape and DD conspiring all year long, 
because JKR states that he had no confidantes.



James Sharman:
> > For all we know the information about
> > the poison passed between them in the
> > first half second and they spent the
> > rest of the time reminiscing about the
> > good old days. 

Eggplant: 
> Unfair! If you can invent new magic on the fly that Rowling never 
even
> hinted at you can justify any plot no matter how ridiculous, but 
even
> then you can't make it work artistically.


Alla:

I completely agree with Eggplant. Snape makes a specific point to 
say during Occlumency lessons that Legilimency is NOT just a mind 
reading, something more complicated. You can see memories, emotions, 

"Snape looked back at him for a moment and then said 
contemptuously. "Surely even you could have worked that out by now, 
Potter? The Dark Lord is highly skilled at Legilimency-"
"What's that?Sir?
"It is the ability to extract feelings and emotions from another 
person's mind-" 
'He can read minds?" said Harry quickly, his worst fears confirmed.
"You have no subtlety, Potter" said Snape his dark eyes 
gliterinng. "You do not understand fine distinctions. It is one of 
the shortcomings that makes you such lamentable potion maker" - OOP, 
paperback, p.530.

I don't remember anything in canon pointing out that you can 
converse telepathically using Legilimency.

JMO,

Alla. 
 
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