Dumbledore's pleading

[zgirnius]

No: HPFGUIDX 141463

 
> Alla wrote:
> 
> I think you ARE quite convincing in 141410. I CAN buy that type of 
> images transferring occur, absolutely. Bravo! There are some 
> additional problems I see though even with that "conversation" 
First 
> of all, what if Snape misunderstands the images. What if with  the 
> image of potion DD really wants to say something else? I don't know 
> that he needs to drink another portion of that potion and Snape 
needs 
> to bring it to him now or later?

zgirnius:
Thanks! As to your point about ambiguity, I actually picked the 
images with some care in an attempt to avoid this problem. (As, 
hypothetically, Dumbledore would have had to in the book). My 
original thought was just to have DD picture Snape AK-ing him off the 
tower. SImple, huh? But IMO that would be pretty bizarre from Snape's 
POV. Hi Snape, now kill me?! So, show the Cave image first, as 
background. "Here, Snape, is what you need to know about the 
situation that you can't simply see for yourself", as it were. Snape 
may not understand what it all means, actually. This is the point at 
which he stops and shoves Draco out of the way. (The one obvious move 
he can make, while waiting for clarification, perhaps?) With this 
additional context the second image is less bizarre, see? (While it 
was not intended by me initially, I was very pleased how the timing 
of this worked into the scene as written by JKR-because it is this 
image that causes Snape's face to twist with revulsion and hatred. 
*IF* JKR envisioned something along these lines this is definitely 
where she'd put it!)

Alla:
> What if that is NOT what DD wants? At least words are clearer, no? 
> So, "images" work MUCH better with canon, but still could be 
> ambiguous, IMO.

zgirnius: 
Oh, absolutely. (Gee, yet a different tragicomic take on the events. 
DD sends Snape an image to Legilimens, which Snape tragically 
misinterprets...I can already hear eggplant sniggering at my Snape!) 
On the other hand, there is no reason not to combine my Legilimency 
scenario with Jen Reese's "meeting of the minds", if you will...

jen wrote:
> Both men knew exactly what the other was 'saying' in that moment 
> without the need for legilimency. And I'm not saying they had
> prepared for this exact moment to take place or the like, simply
>  that both knew each other well enough to understand what was 
> taking place (even if we do not!).

zgirnius:
I find this plausible myself, but clearly many do not. (For example, 
I feel both men are sufficiently logical and analytical to 
independently reach the same conclusion, that Snape's killing of DD 
is the "least evil" under the circumstances, as is being debated in 
the "Cold Equations" thread. They might reasonably also know each 
other well enough to be *sure* the other is on the same page). On the 
other hand, assuming Legilimency is limited to simple images (no 
conversation) the mutual understanding that exists between DD and 
Snape could help Snape to correctly interpret such a crude exchange.

Alla:
> Besides, what about timing? Only couple of seconds passed and that 
> was MORE than one image to show. Don't you think that it was still
> not enough time to do so?

zgirnius:
Again, I believe it could have worked as I describe. I wrote my 
little "additions" to take place concurrently with the snippets of 
action from the book. So, DD says "Severus" (first time). Snape 
immediately Legilimenses him, and as he strides toward Draco and 
shoves him out of the way, he sees image one. He stops to gaze at DD, 
and sees image 2, causing his face to twist as described in the book. 
DD sees the reaction and sends image 3, while speaking 
aloud, "Severus...please...". Snape raises his wand...

Jen wrote: 
> I'd vote against legilimency for the reason that Snape could be
> left with images in his mind for Voldemort to discover and exploit.

zgirnius:
Well, this risk would have to be weighed against the potential 
obvious benefit of Snape killing DD. (It would tend to reassure 
Voldemort that Snape is *not* on DD's side). Also, there are 
certainly images that Snape would be hiding already. (My image three, 
of the hypothetical meeting well before Voldemort's fall, in which 
Snape, sincerely remorseful, comes over to DD's side is already on 
that list! And image 2, Snape AKing DD, would look very much like the 
same memory. Only image 1, Harry feeding green goo to DD in the Cave, 
needs to be hidden. But then, a dying DD might want Snape to know 
about this anyway.)

jen:
Oh, I'm not saying this well! Since we can't ever know what Snape's
up to, I look at it from Dumbledore's perspective, and feel certain
he understood Snape in that moment, understood what he was about to
do and why. And most important, if Snape's actions required it,
Dumbledore forgave him in a way Snape didn't forgive himself, from
the painful look on his face in front of Hagrid's burning hut. That
was the very poignant part to me, that somehow even if Snape did
betray Dumbledore in the end, Dumbledore still *believed* in him to
do the right thing and get the DE's/Draco out of Hogwarts and ensure
Harry's safety.

zgirnius:
Oh, I think you are saying it excellently. And on the other hand if 
Snape remained loyal to DD but was trapped by circumstances like Fang 
in Hagrid's cottage, how poignant is Snape's situation? He did "the 
right thing" and can't even forgive himself for it.

jen:
Jen, who thinks if legilimency did pass between the two, zgirnius
nailed the explanation why!

zgirnius:
Thanks! I am not at all convinced that it did either. But if JKR 
tells us in Book 7 that it did, I insist that she will not be 
cheating.