Dumbledore's pleading - Forgive and Forget, or Not

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 141522


> > Valky:
> > So we go, that if Severus Snape did not cast a full
> > intensive killing curse but instead something that blasted DD
> > over/through the ramparts, then Why? <snip> What are they doing?
> 
> zgirnius:
> Well, having DD's body fall off of the Tower removes any incentive 
> for the DEs to stick around. (Gross, but what if Fenrir is a trifle 
> peckish? What if Voldemort would like a trophy?)

Valky:
I agree with all of those implications. IMO, a DDM Snape would at
least want to prevent a public desecration of Dumbledore's body and I
think perhaps Dumbledore would too. There are all kinds of literary
implications there too, like your example that if Dumbledore had died
on the Tower, it surely will have followed that the DE's would make to
have their way with his body and claim a trophy, and I am sure JKR
didn't want to do *that* to her epitome of goodness. 

In terms of plot there's the other implication that Dumbledores body
is *laden* with evidence of his secret doings. He has the fake Horcrux
in his pocket with a note to the Dark Lord in it, he has a
dead/blackened hand which Voldemort might recognise as the effects of
his own ring Horcrux curse, not to mention Harry Potter standing
behind the door primed to rush out like a madman the instant he is
free. That much information is a *gift* to Voldemort, just tie a bow
around it and sing 'Happy Evil Overlord Victory' day. <g>



zgirnius:
> Snape either casts the AK and follows up with a nonverval 
> spell that moves the body, or fakes the AK using some nonverbal 
> spell/spells. 
> 
> It could also be, as you suggest, that Snape *intended* Dumbledore  
> to just fall off the tower, assuming Fawkes could somehow help him 
> save himself, as you suggest.

Valky:
Well, No, not really. I mean to actually to suggest that Dumbledore
alone deliberated and saw the necessity for blasting him off the
tower, while Snape would be more like Harry in the cave, justifiably
afraid it might kill Dumbledore, getting the sense that Dumbledore has
a death wish because he's asking it, starting to know that Dumbledore
*will die* if he does, stalling for DD to come up with some
alternative, and then... well... just doing it, reluctantly and hating
it, but following the order as it was given.

IMO, the best clue that Jo could have laid to answer this question is
Dumbledores exact time of death. But she knows us and how darn
analytical we are, it seems, because she has given *even that* a neat
little ambiguity. Harry cannot exactly pinpoint the moment when he was
freed from Dumbledores PT jinx and started being frozen in shock
instead. All we do know is that his scream never left him, so DD
didn't die the instant he was struck by Snapes curse, after that, mystery.


zgirnius:
> I find this a bit of a stretch since DD is 
> without his wand-but I suppose Fawkes could fetch DD's wand to him, 
> then DD could lower himself more slowly (as we saw him do to a 
> falling Harry in a Quidditch match in the past). 

Valky:
Yeah, that's a stretch, but I really didn't mean to suggest that Snape
would think Fawkes will bring DD his wand so he could save himself.
Fawkes could catch him, Phoenixes can *carry* huge loads. 

Essentially, my point about Fawkes is that he probably *would* rush
(apparate) from his hiding place to catch the falling DD, the fact
that he didn't suggests very strongly that Harry was not the only of
Dumbledores trusted and beloved allies who was *ordered* NOT to
protect him. 


> zgirnius:
> But this could also be unintended. It's true the flying up bit seems 
> totally wrong based on what we've seen. But we've never seen Snape 
> cast the AK before. Maybe his is just peculiarly powerful in terms 
> of physical side-effects. We've never seen a *failed* AK either.  
> Missed, yes. I mean here 'failed' in the same sense that Harry 
> failed to Crucio Bella in the MOM scene in OotP.
>

Valky:
I agree with this, and I am still quite open to the possibility that
Snapes AK was real, but failed in some sense to do the job. 

What I essentially think is evident is that it was not simply a
successful Avada Kedavra. Dumbledore flew up, instead of fell down, so
he may have been alive as he fell. 

If it was a real AK that failed (which we I agree we haven't seen so
it could still be), Snape's actions are slightly mitigated by his
inability to cast the real one, and what appears to be Dumbledore's
choice to die thereafter but it still could mean Snape has betrayed DD
in some way. 
But if Snape deliberately didn't cast a killing AK and deliberately
blasted Dumbledore off the tower, instead, then it almost
automatically follows that he probably isn't a killer, but rather just
another of DD's lieutenants following orders, like Harry. And in that
case, I am mostly curious about understanding it from Dumbledores
perspective.