Bagman as Loyal Death Eater and Big Blond

[gav_fiji]

No: HPFGUIDX 141573

Carol:
> Evidently you're not, as I pointed out that he wasn't charged with
> being a Death Eater, only with aiding one, and you snipped that 
> point.

Goddlefrood says:
Time will obviously tell, I find it interesting that Bagman may have 
been deliberately downplayed by JKR. Alternatives for the BBDE are 
quite thin. Sturgis Podmore is never mentioned as being large which 
originally led me to think of who the BBDE could be. It started from 
that premise. The other matters regarding Bagman's loyalty are on 
far shakier ground. Putting all the pieces of description of Bagman 
together leads to the not unreasonable conclusion that he is a prime 
suspect to be the BBDE.

Carol:
> What evidence do you have that has not already been answered in 
> GoF itself with the explanation that he's in debt to the goblins? 
> I'm not persuaded that we should reject that explanation.

Goddlefrood:
As I say it's more the description of Bagman that we have that leads 
me to my conclusion.

Carol:
> The chains bind the people we know are guilty of being Death 
> Eaters:  Karkaroff, the Lestranges (Bellatrix, Rodolphus, and 
> Rabastan), and the fear-filled boy, Barty Crouch Jr. They don't 
> bind Bagman; they only rattle ominously, suggesting that his 
> crime, if any, is minor. And in Harry's case, they don't even 
> rattle. So, yes, I think the chair can magically sense guilt, and 
> I see no evidence that Bagman is skilled at anything other than 
> Quidditch and "commentating." 

Goddlefrood replies:
I can only speculate on this and say that the chair may act in the 
manner you describe. Or perhaps it is itself a loyal Quidditch fan?
Or even perhaps it can be fooled like other dark detectors, if it is 
indeed one.

Carol:
> Do you have any canon evidence of his intelligence or power? I 
> don't recall his casting any spell other than Sonorus. He could be 
> a one-spell wonder like Lockhart.

Goddlefrood:
If I am correct about him being the BBDE then as that he shows 
considerable power.

Goddlefrood earlier: 
> > That Bagman was a Beater is suggestive of his size. 

Carol:
> I'm not disputing that Bagman is a large man, or that he's blond.
> Obviously, he's both. I just don't think that's sufficient evidence
> for concluding that he's the same person as the Big Blond Death 
> Eater. I have no doubt that there are many large blond wizards in 
> the UK.

Goddlefrood:
Any we have met, other than Bagman?

Carol:
> It's like saying: Carol is skinny and wears thick glasses that 
> magnify her eyes (true statement). She must be the same person as 
> Professor Trelawney. (Shh! Don't reveal my secret!) Seriously, the 
> BBDE could as easily be Sturgis Podmore, who is also blond and 
> should be out of prison by now, but we haven't heard a word about 
> him.

Goddlefrood:
Sturgis is, as I recall from The Advanced Guard in OotP described as 
quite small.


Goddlefrood earlier:
> > If it accepted as a detective novel, and it has many of those 
> > traits, then you have a valid point. It is not entirely a 
> > detective novel, however, it is in fact part of an ongoing saga 
 
Carol:
> I'll grant you that detective story is one of several genres that 
> JKR employs, others being the heroic epic and the bildungsroman. 
> Certinly some characters, for example Wormtail and Snape, are part 
> of the continuing story, and it's possible that Bagman is as well. <snip> But Ludo Bagman, IIRC, first appears in GoF and has
> disappeared from the story. 

Goddelfrood:
As you say, time will tell.

Goddlefrood earlier: 
> > Who says he was not in the graveyard? This point is far from 
> > proven.

Carol again:
> As you note yourself, we've found out the names of about half a 
> dozen of these people. But Bagman's name has not come up. Granted, 
> there's no proof that he wasn't in the graveyard, but there's no 
> evidence whatever that he was.

Goddlefrood:
Oh, the continuing mystery. Personally I don't think we will ever 
fully know who was in the graveyard.

Carol:
> Snape knows exactly at what point Voldemort summons the DEs to the
> graveyard. So does Karkaroff, who runs away at exactly that point.

Goddlefrood:
Do they indeed? Snape shows his arm to Fudge later, but the point at 
which the DEs are summoned is not, to my recollection, stated.

Carol said further:
> Surely Snape or Crouch Jr. under Veritaserum would have remarked 
> about Bagman's disappearance if it had occurred at exactly that 
> time. But Bagman thought that he had won his bet (that Harry would 
> win the tournament). It's only after he meets with the goblins, 
> who tell him that the TWT ended in a draw and he's lost the bet 
> that he disappears.

Goddlefrood:
You are right on this point, but as I recall Bagman is stated to 
have disappeared immediately after the third task. It comes down to 
whether the interpretation you put on this is mine, that is that 
the third task ended when Harry and Cedric disappeared, at which 
point the goblins would have decided the bet, or when Harry 
reappeared with Cedric's body. In canon there is no absolutely clear 
indication of which.

Carol:
> And the DEs don't take half an hour to arrive after they're 
> summoned, which occurs *after* Wormtail has restored Voldemort to 
> his adult-sized body. <snip> (GoF  Am. ed. 646). But Bagman would 
> have had to rush from the stadium with all eyes on him (like the 
> coward Karkaroff, who fears the revenge of the DEs so much that he 
> doesn't care who sees him), run and get a cloak and mask (did he 
> keep one at Hogwarts, just in case? I doubt it), run to Hogsmeade 
> (you can't Apparate from Hogwarts or its grounds), and show up 
> late (as no one does). <snip>


Goddlefrood:
I have no doubt that if Bagman did disappear it was to hide from the 
goblins. The half-hour I referred to was the time between Harry and 
Cedric touching the Portkey and the appearance of the Death Eaters. 
That would work.

Carol:
> Not all bad? He unquestionably sets fire to Hagrid's house (602) 
> and he apparently Crucios Harry (603). 

Goddlefrood:
It is either Amycus or Alecto who Crucios Harry.

Carol:
> So we'll probably hear from Bill regarding Bagman, too. (One
> more loose end to wrap up, like the death of Karkaroff mentioned in
> passing in HBP.)

Goddlefrood:
I trust this would be the case as I, as I am sure you are, am 
curious about Bagman.

 
Goddlefrood earlier:
> > Toodle pip
 
Carol:
> Ah, you must be British! We Americans don't have any equivalent
> (unborrowed) expressions that I can think of, sad, colorless lot 
> that we are.

Goddlefrood:
Indeed by origin I am British, but also partly Russian. Currently 
resident in Fiji for the last 8 years with endless time on my hands 
to read luckily. Perhaps as the British have done in adopting 
certain Americanisms you Americans could adopt certain expressions 
from the Brits.

Chin Chin