Twist JKR? (was:Re: Dumbledore's pleading...)

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 141634

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" 
<horridporrid03 at y...> wrote:

> Betsy Hp:
> But it does require sweeping Snape's saving Dumbledore's life at 
> the beginning of HBP under the rug.  Neither side of the debate has 
> a lock on directness, I would say. <g> (And I enjoyed the humor of 
> Neri's post, but I don't see it's revelence to JKR's use of twists 
> or the directness of Snape's character arc.)

OFH provides an accounting for this event, although I know that you 
don't like it.  OFH is really quite direct, because it's happy to let 
Snape take actions for both sides--it then takes an intensely 
skeptical approach towards his sincerity in all cases.

May I introduce you to my friend, Mr. Excluded Middle?  He's really 
quite pleasant.  I hear he's been looking longingly after Faith, 
these days.

Oh, I think Neri's post is extremely relevant, because it describes 
almost all the ways which fans read, and all the things which fans 
do, to make patterns out of the information that we're given.  It 
points out quite well how little solid information is there, and how 
much of the arguments are based on what we fill in the blanks with.

> Betsy Hp:
> I think it's a bit of a strawman to get into a "who's more complex" 
> argument (I did start it, sorry <g>), but I will say a lot of Ron's 
> page time is spent doing exposition.  We do see him develop and we 
> do get insight into his character, but not every single time he 
> comes up. 

That's still one area where we've gotten pretty much nothing out of 
Snape in dynamic terms.  We find out that he *did* X and Y, but we 
have remarkably little of his doing X and Y that's not somehow 
predicated by past action.  Most of the theories also end to 
postulate that he's been the same for 16 years, good or evil, and if 
he's haunted it's by his past determining his present actions.  But 
then I admit I started to get a little bored with him when OotP was 
much of the same: half witty humor, half downgrade schoolboy class 
and petty commentary.

> And he does fall into several "loyal side-kick" stereotypes.  
> Honestly, I think Snape and Ron are about equal as characters.  I 
> think Ron has more promise of surviving the series (so more of a 
> future) but I don't think he beats Snape in the dynamics department.

Has Snape developed over the course of six books?  He started off 
with an intense dislike for Harry Potter, and that doesn't seem to 
have changed.  According to your model, he changed sides for Albus 
Dumbledore, and has been a secretive but noble warrior for the good 
cause ever since.  He doesn't seem to have made much progress in 
emotional terms, still being hung up on the past.  Dynamic?  I don't 
really see it from DDM!Snape.  I do see an increasing level of 
resentment (per PoA), but there's just not much in canon to go on.

> Betsy Hp:
> Dumbledore overprotected Harry (in OotP), yes.  I'm not sure saying 
> he loved him too much, or should not have cared for him, accurately 
> hits the Potterverse morality.  Actually, I think it misses it by a 
> huge mark.  To try and say that JKR is writing a morality that 
> encourages sons to let their mothers die is an uphill battle I 
> think.

I wouldn't say that either. But I would say she's writing a morality 
where one has to consider very, very hard the consequences of self-
absorption and what it can do to other people.  I suppose that Draco 
is a notch above Peter for acting out of fear of his family and not 
just himself (although many a poster has postulated that Peter feared 
for others as well), but neither of them has a positive social 
morality.  The morality of the Potterverse does seem very social to 
me, rewarding sincerity over authenticity.  

> Betsy Hp, who rather likes CS Lewis and can't imagine a proper 
> childhood without him

-Nora, who leaves CS Lewis well alone because she prefers her 
literature without the heavy-handed religious allegory, and figured 
out what Aslan was very quickly