Twist JKR? (was:Re: Dumbledore's pleading...)

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 141666

> Betsy Hp:
> I don't like OFH because it requires so much twisting and turning
> to work.  (I'm rather surprised *you* like it Nora. <g>)  I'm not
> sure if you support the OFH!Snape who's out to rule the WW himself
> (in which case you need to explain his lack of minions or any sort
> of political manuvering), or the OFH!Snape who just wants to live
> a comfortable life (in which case you have to explain why Snape
> stays in the game, instead of say, scampering off to Durmstang
> where he may well have become headmaster himself). 

Jen: I re-read chap. two, honestly attempting to read the scene at 
face-value, and immediately found myself convoluting all over the 
place, particularly in regard to what we know about Voldemort & 
Dumbledore, to reconstruct prior information to meet the face-value 
reading of OFH!Snape in this chapter. For example:

1) Wormtail really was present to assist Snape with his important DE 
duties and even though he has taken to listening at the door, Snape 
keeps him on by his own choice.
2) Snape is valued above all other DE's and is the most trusted of 
them all. Voldemort, who trusts no one and values loyalty above all 
else, not only fully accepted Snape's accounting of his actions for 
16+ years, but welcomed him back in the fold as his most trusted 
advisor. 
3) Snape returned to LV on Dumbledore's orders and although 
Voldemort's was initially 'displeased' with his two-hour delay and 
had vowed to kill him in the graveyard, Snape was able to explain 
his absence well enough for a Voldemort to elevate him above the 
DE's who did return to the graveyard immediately.
4) All Dumbledore required to accept Snape back into the fold at 
Hogwarts and in the Order was a 'tale of deepest remorse' and his 
trusting nature was fooled into believing Snape's story.

I could go on, but that's enough to work with. First, Voldemort and 
Dumbledore are the most abysmally foolish wizards of their age along 
with being the most powerful. Apparently a superb Occlumens can fool 
all the right people, and given Snape's extraordinary ability to 
read people and understand their weaknesses (?), he understands 
exactly which story to spin for both of these men. And not only is 
he accepted by both wizards, he's in a valued position with each 
one, and therefore carefully positioned to....do what exactly? 

A face-value reading of Snape would indicate we should understand 
his motivation for maneuvering himself into this exalted position or 
else there's something missing, and therefore we don't have face-
value.
 
> Betsy Hp:
> I don't like OFH because it requires so much twisting and turning
> to work.

Nora:
> But it doesn't require *my* twisting and turning to work, which is
> what's different about it. Is that an acceptible difference? It's a
> profound one.

> It lets Snape be twisty and turny in and of himself, which is how
> he's written. Either DDM or ESE try to straighten him out into one
> line, whereby all actions have a single end. And in some variations
> of DDM, we get pages of tortuous explanation as to how Harry has
> totally and utterly misread everything, Snape was just acting when
> he freaked out in the Shack, he's playing game after game, etc.

Jen: So it is better to twisty turny every other character so Snape 
can fit into OFH? Unless I'm misreading, that's exactly what would 
need to happen. An overhaul of nearly every other major character 
and what we understand about their motivations and agendas up to 
this point. 

My opinion at this point is that DDM!Snape cannot be compared to ESE!
Snape because we are talking about two very different leaders. ESE 
only allows for absolute loyalty to Voldemort with no personal 
agenda in play *except* avoidance of horrible consequences. At the 
most generous Snape could be used by Voldemort and is therefore kept 
around, but that would be the only exception. 

DDM allows for Snape to have some of his own motivations, loyalties 
and agendas but still in the end do the Right thing. You think 
everyone in the Order follows Dumbledore because he's doing the 
Right thing and they have no personal concerns or agendas? We've 
already seen that not to be true. Everyone we've met hopes to gain 
something personally by following Dumbledore.

Betsy:
> And I do think OFH fails to account for Snape saving Dumbledore in
> one instance and then killing him in another. There's no obvious
> gain for either action, and the contradictory nature of the actions
> leave an OFH proponent making with two different arguments on their
> hands.


Nora:
> Lupinlore answered that: before the UV and in a direct encounter
> with Dumbledore, Snape helps out. Everything changes once Snape
> has tied his hands with the vow, and maybe also over the course of 
> a year.People's perceptions of events can change a lot over a
> turbulent year. My own speculation wonders about Snape's 
> discomfort with Dumbledore's unshakable conviction in Harry 
> Potter. I can see Snape wrestling with the issue of "We're
>  depending upon that obnoxious kid? We're screwed. But I'm not,
> necessarily..."

Jen: This I completely understand. Yes Snape got in over his head, 
and yes maybe his fear or fatigue or even the DADA curse got to him 
finally and he wants OUT. He hates Harry, he probably does view him 
as an inferior wizard and incapable of defeating Voldemort. DDM!
Snape allows for ALL those things as long as Snape chooses the right 
path in the end. Maybe you are saying he took what he thought was 
the easy way out on the tower, but we know it *wasn't* the easy way 
out. He's a man without a country now. If he doesn't truly believe 
in Voldemort and has no motivation for following him, but he doesn't 
truly believe Harry is the only one who can destroy Voldemort, then 
killing Dumbledore had no personal value whatsoever to him!

Jen