Characters and Consequences? /What does Dumbledore wanted on the Tower?

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 141683

Ginger:
<SNIP>
 *Why* DD left Harry with his 
> charming relations is the main point, not how they treated Harry.  
> Harry needs to understand that leaving him there was necessary, 
not 
> that it was bad.  He already had that part figured out.  At this 
> point, Harry only needs to know that the Dursleys were the lesser 
of 
> 2 evils.


Alla:

If you are right, I don't think JKR made this message clear at all. 
IF Harry only needed to know that Dursleys were lesser of two Evils. 
The part of " I knew you would suffer and I knew you were facing ten 
dark difficult years " ( paraphrase) does not make Dursleys sound 
like lesser of two Evils to me. 
Am I making sense? If Dumbledore would have only said that the only 
reason I left you there was because otherwise you would be dead, 
then sure, lesser of two Evils it was. But he did not make that 
clear to me.

But Dumbledore was also admitting his own culpability IMO and 
somehow I am not sure that this is what JKR intended to convey.

I completely agree with Lupinlore that if JKR were ever to get to 
revised editions of the books, I think " I knew you would suffer" is 
almost bound to dissapear completely. JMO of course.

Ginger:

<SNIP>
> I have always been in the camp that the Dursleys weren't the worst 
> people on the planet.  I didn't *like* the way they treated Harry, 
> but I didn't think they were bad enough to have to face the firing 
> squads, fire and brimstone, or social workers with explanatory 
> pamphlets with which others were willing to bombard them.  As 
Steve 
> (bboy_mn) so well put it:  There's abuse and Abuse.
> 
> I did think that they deserved a nice humiliation (and possibly a 
> bi+ch slap), and as I said, I loved it.


Alla:

IMO the only reason Dursleys did not face social workers, trials, 
legal system, etc, is because this is not the type of book JKR 
writes ( I mean that she does not have the time to deal with all 
that), but the LABELS Dumbledore ( and I want to believe JKR too) 
marks  their behaviour with, makes me believe that she is clear that 
they do deserve all that and worse. Sorry, Guinger! :-)

" He has known nothing but neglect and cruelty at your hands" - HBP, 
p.55 That tells me a lot.

I think that was another example of vicarious retribution or carmic 
punishment. JKR does not have time to deal with Dursleys properly, 
so she let Albus nicely humiliate them and just as you I loved it.




Guinger: 
> So I don't think that DD's opinion changed so much as his audience 
> did, although I do wonder if, after his interview with Harry in 
OoP, 
> DD realized that Harry needed to hear it as much as the Dursleys.

Alla:

Sorry, but IMO that would make Dumbledore sound as first rate 
hyppocrite, so I am hoping that this was JKR backing off, not Albus 
singing a different tune because of different audience only.



> 
> Ginger, who also liked MM's mentioning that Neville's Gran failed 
her 
> charms OWL.

Alla:

That was sweet, isn't it? :)



>

> houyhnhnm:
> 
> But if it was what Dumbledore wanted--for Harry to be saved even at
> the sacrifice of his own life--then what Snape did wasn't murder. 
> This point has been argued over and over and it doesn't seem to 
make
> any impression whatsoever.  


Alla:

Well, the point that Dumbledore would not ask anyone to risk their 
soul in order to help out in  his sacrifice also had been argued 
over and over and it also does not make any impression whatsoever. 
Maybe because those points are at the heart of the opposing Snape's 
interpretations and they are bound not to make any impressions 
untill JKR says so? :-)

Personally ( and forgive me for referencing my favorite Sigune essay 
about Snape again) I consider myself to be able to be reasonably 
convinced by some theories ( I think that more often than not our 
opinions on the major issues stay the same, despite reading 
fantastically crafted arguments of the opposing side) and before 
Sigune came along, I considered Snape to be absolutely beyond 
redemption after HBP. She convinced me, I see Trapped!Snape now, I 
see Snape who honestly  thought that he has no other choice but to 
kill Dumbledore, while still wanting to help the Light. It does not 
make him less culpable, but at least it cam make him suitable for 
redemption IMO.

But to see Dumbledore asking Snape to do it, for me means to turn my 
whole reading of the canon, of the spirit of the books as I read 
them upside down. Does it mean that it is not going to happen? Of 
course it could, those are JKR's books after all and it is a 
legitimate route to travel, but for me right now it will require to 
do too much twisting in my head, so I prefer not to, untill JKR says 
so, of course.

I prefer to see Dumbledore as someone who would not take a risk of 
destroying the soul of another human being, even at the time of war, 
even if that human being soul was already hurt before.

Maybe JKR sees him as ruthless general first and foremost, of 
course. It is not something  that would make me terribly 
dissapointed, because nothing could compare with how dissapointed I 
was with Dumbledore after the end of OOP, but  maybe not. Two more 
years and we will know. :-)

JMO,

Alla