Twist JKR?/ Dumbledore's peaceful expression

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 141731

> Hickengruendler:
> 
> I still think it would make Dumbledore look like a fool, who 
deserved 
> what he got.


Alla:

Oh, well. We definitely disagree on that one then as I said. I 
discovered that on post HBP Snape I disagree with many people whom I 
used to agree on prior HBP Snape :-)


Hickengruendler:
> To bring up an example that I already mentioned at another place. 
It 
> is the second World war and you are Franklin D. Roosevelt or 
Winston 
> Churchill. Suddenly, Eichmann or Goebbels come into your office or 
> met you at another place, and told you how sorry they are and that 
> they really regretted what they did, and if they might join your 
> side, they could be valuable spies. Would you believe him just 
like 
> that, because you believe in the good in people? I don't think any 
of 
> us would. Most people might consider their offers, but they 
wouldn't 
> trust them just like that. And if you do, than you are simply not 
in 
> the position to be a leader in a war. And that's what Dumbledore 
was 
> at least two times (three if we include the Grindelwald war, but 
we 
> don't know if he realy was a leader then), in spite of all the 
other 
> more peaceful qualities he embodies. Therefore the idea that 
> Dumbledore believed Snape on such a flimsy evidence, together with 
> the possibility that the man, who said several times that death is 
> nothing to fear, would beg for his life, would simply destroy the 
> Dumbledore character for me.


Alla:

LOL! Well, I would absolutely NOT believe them and I am not sure 
whether I would even considered their offers in the first place, so 
fishy it would have been to me, but you know what?  I would not have 
done MANY things that Dumbledore did. :-)


I would not have  brought eleven year old psychopath to the school I 
am in charge with, because I would be afraid that other people may 
be hurt by my decision.

I would NOT have left a baby with muggles whose my Deputy Headmaster 
was able to determine are " the worst kind " after wathching  them 
for a day only.

I would NOT let the former member of terrorist organization anywhere 
NEAR my students, because I don't know , I would be worried that 
this man may had many dangerous psychological issues left over his 
glory days and he may have take it out on my students.

I would NOT be so naive as to underestimate how much one teacher 
hated the father of my student, that he would be able to suddenly 
overcome all those feelings by seeing a glimpse of that student mind.

I would be , I don't know suspicious that one of my teachers came 
from his vocation with completely changed personality.

So, to make the long story short, I am not Dumbledore :-) and I 
believe that trust IS an essential feature of his character.

Oh, and another reason why I think your analogy is distinguishable - 
I don't think that Roosvelt or Churchil taught Eichman in school ( 
unless I don't know that fact), and old teachers tend to have all 
kind of sentimental feelings towards their students. At least in my 
home country they sure did, when they taught same class of people 
for seven years. I stayed in touch with some of my teachers for 
years after I left school. Now,  even though my former teachers had 
no reason to NOT treat me well, I also think that if I did something 
questionable, they would have still trusted me simply because of me 
being their former student.




Hickengruendler: 
> I realize that Dumbledore begging for someone else to kill him has 
> it's problems as well, and that it very well might destroy 
> Dumbledore's character for some other readers. *g* 

Alla:

Not completely destroy, but it will definitely require to do some 
major twisting in my head. :-) I see him as first of all spiritual 
leader and then war leader, but of course it is a possibility that 
JKR does not see him that way and  her view is what matters the 
most. :-)



> 
> Hickengruendler, who starts to think, that JKR might have included 
> Dumbledore's plea, to give the readers a hint, that this is not as 
it 
> seems on first glance, because it is that OOC for Dumbledore to 
beg 
> for his life
>
Alla:

I thought you believed it all along :-) and as I said I believe that 
in order to complete Horcrux quest  and to protect his students , 
Dumbledore would beg, because in essence he would not be begging for 
his life , but for the lifes of others.


> Neri:
<SNIP>
> My book (HBP, US ed, pp. 608-609) describes the fallen Dumbledore 
as
> follows:
> 
> ************************************************
> Dumbledore's eyes were closed; but for the strange angle of his 
arms
> and legs, he might have been sleeping. Harry reached out, 
straightened
> the half-moon spectacles upon the crooked nose, and wiped a 
trickle of
> blood from the mouth with his own sleeve. Then he gazed down at the
> wise old face and tried to absorb the enormous and incomprehensible
> truth: that never again would Dumbledore speak to him, never again
> could he help...
> ************************************************
> 
> I also went over the previous and next pages, and I still can't 
find
> the words "peaceful expression" or "smile". Help, anybody?


Alla:

Oh, BRAVO, Neri. Do you know even though I was surprised by mention 
of the "smile" upthread , I also fell for peaceful expression ( I 
simply had not reread that chapter since my second reread  in 
August, but I read about "peaceful expression" many times on the 
list). In any event, even if Dumbledore had peaceful expression on 
his face, which as you so nicely showed that he had not, or at least 
we don't see it, I would be quite convinced that  the ONLY 
expression character like Dumbledore can have when he is dead is 
peace, since he is indeed not afraid of death and I also don't think 
that by few Avadas we have seen we can judge that Avada can produce 
no different effects at all. As to blood, someone pointed out ( 
Amiable Dorsai?) that bodies could blead after the fall.

Now, Valky mentions that peaceful expression comes from the 
portrait, but I think it is even more remote piece of evidence that 
Dumbledore died peacefully than if we saw peaceful expression on his 
dead face. Portraits are just the imprint of personality, right? 
There is no way that portrait would have know how Dumbledore died, 
IMO. Therefore it makes total sense to me that portrait would have  
the imprint of one of the basic qualities of Dumbledore's character -
 peacefullness, even if prior to his death he learned that he 
trusted someone he should not have.

Of course, JMO.

Alla.