Twist JKR?/ Some spoilers for Les Miserables

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 141757

> Elyse here:
> Everyone keeps talking about these mistakes that Dumbledore made, 
but 
> I myself do not believe that what he did amounted to a mistake.
<SNIP>

Alla:

Oh, well, I believe that Dumbledore made plenty of mistakes precisely 
because he forgot how " normal people" feel( I also believe that JKR 
in interview back that idea up - that Dumbledore's wisdom lead him to 
make mistakes and that Dumbledore himself admits to making mistakes 
at the end of OOP), but that is the matter of interpretation of 
course.

> 
> o> Alla:
> > I would not have  brought eleven year old psychopath to the 
school 
> I 
> > am in charge with, because I would be afraid that other people 
may 
> > be hurt by my decision.
> > 
> 
> Elyse: I really dont want to sound rude saying this, but there's no 
> other way around it, so forgive me.
> Who are you to decide whether an eleven year old is a psychopath?
> I doubt a single psychiatrist would in his or her professional 
> opinion (ie knowing they might be sued for it) would declare Tom 
> Riddle a dangerous,unredeemable,psychopath,who should not be 
allowed 
> the privilege of education, based on that little interview.
> It would require a lot of therapy before he could be justifiably 
> called a psychopath, and even then, nobody would have dared deny 
him 
> an education (although since he was already in control of his 
magical 
> powers, education is a moot point anyway).

Alla:

Hmmm. Who am I to decide? I am the reader of the series, who as ANY 
other reader has a right to decide how to label a fictional 
character. Based on what I read about psychopathy Tom Riddle gives me 
an impression of psychopath. Is it going to be hundred percent 
correct label? Of course not, I am NOT a psychiatrist, but I don't 
think I have to be for talking about fiction.

For example, Harry after he had been through a Graveyard and Sirius 
right after Azkaban strike me as quite accurate portrayal of people 
with PTSD. Sirius stuck at Grimmauld place strikes me as VERY 
accurate portrayal of depressed person. Does it mean that they had 
all  the symptoms that RL psychiatrist or psychologist needs to give 
such diagnosis? I am guessing  that the answer would be NO, but based 
on the general impression I am convinced that they have PTSD and 
depression.

If you want to chalenge me on this one, please do so, but as I am 
saying below, it is really not that important for me how to call 
young Tom besides the fact that he was dangerous at such young age.
What IS important to me is that Dumbledore KNEW that Tom was 
dangerous and did not do anything about it, except deciding to keep 
an eye on him  and apparently not doing a very good job out of it, 
IMo.


Elyse: 
> He may have certain qualities that point in this direction, yes, 
but 
> that could be because he never received proper guidance, never got 
> the love, the moral and ethical persuasion that others did.
> Is it too much to presume that he might make friends at Hogwarts 
> where he would be among other wizards of his own kind?
> IMO, this what Dumbledore believed or at the least, hoped for.
> And based on this, Dumbledore chose to give him not his second 
> chance, but his first one.

Alla:

Actually, for the purpose of this argument I am not even set 
on "psychopath" label, I will quite settle for psychopathic 
tendencies, or even "dangerous for others" label, since that is what 
matters for my argument about Dumbledore.

Oh, and I am NOT comfortable with many "essentialism" qualities of 
Potterverse, but I do believe that JKR's world has  them, whether I 
like them or not.

Tom Riddle never loved anyone, after all according to her. So, while 
I may not like  the description of eleven year old in such bad light, 
I accept it as what author intended.Again, this is just my 
interpretation of JKR's intent.

Second chances or first chances are good, BUT Dumbledore deciding to 
give Tom Riddle a chance  lead to a disaster, IMO. I was just trying 
to show that putting trust in one soul is  the thing which Dumbledore 
does quite easily ,even if he suspects that it could hurt others.



Elyse:
<SNIP> 
If Dumbledore had 
> warned them before he reached Hogwarts, would any teacher have 
> believed him? They would have thought that Dumbledore was simply 
> prejudiced; how could sweet,smart Tom Riddle be a psychopath?
<SNIP>

Alla:

All teachers seemed to be quite eager to trust Snape based ONLY on 
Dumbledore's words, so yes, I think if Dumbledore queitly told 
Slughorn to keep an eye on Mr. Riddle, I think many disastrous events 
would have been avoided, because Slughorn would have been at least 
listened out of respect to Dumbledore, if not because he would 
genuinely believed so.



> Elyse: Yep, and let the "Chosen One" have the pleasure of choosing 
> which way he wanted to die: at the hands of Regenerated!Voldemort 
or 
> under Bellatrix's motherly gaze.
> Come on, be fair. It was either certain death and victory for 
> Voldemort or being abused, but staying alive. And I dont see how it 
> was possible for Dumbledore to foresee exactly how bad their 
> treatment of Harry was.


Alla:

I don't really want to go into discussing Dumbledore's speech in OOP 
again, but nowhere in that speech he says that he ahd no other 
options, as far as I can remember. He said you would be  the safest, 
where your mother blood dwells, he said that their DE out on the 
loose, but as I said earlier, it was not hundred percent clear to me.

But yeah, I think that this is what JKR intended - to be left with 
Dursleys or die, I just think that she did not convey it clear enough 
AND without Dumbledore singing a different tune  in HBP, he comes out 
( to me only of course) in a bad light after OOP for at least not 
interfering and checking up on Harry.

> 
> 
> > Alla:
> > I would NOT let the former member of terrorist organization 
> anywhere 
> > NEAR my students, because I don't know , I would be worried that 
> > this man may had many dangerous psychological issues left over 
his 
> > glory days and he may have take it out on my students.
> > 
> Elyse: Well, whats the point of being redeemed if no one is willing 
> to give you a job and ostracize you because you *may* have 
> psychological issues left over? By your way of thinking, we should  
> give life sentences to all convicts, shouldnt we, because they 
*may* 
> have psychological issues left over from their time in jail?
> I read this fabulous Victor Hugo story years ago. I think it was 
from 
> Les Miserables but I'm not sure. <SNIP>

Alla:

You missed my point completely, I am sorry for  being unclear.
The reason I wrote  the tirade about what I would not have done if I 
were Dumbledore was to show that in many instances Dumbledore is 
BETTER person than I am, but also in some instances his trust in 
people has to be balanced with other issues, such as safety of the 
other people he is responsible for.

I am NOT saying that he should not have given Snape a second chance ( 
although when I am not in charitable mood, I happen to believe that 
Snape failed that chance), I think it is a GOOD thing on Dumbledore 
part, BUT I also think that it was irresponsible of Dumbledore not to 
think about his students before he did so, IMO.

I am saying that Dumbledore with his tremendous connections 
everywhere could have find a job for Snape for example somewhere in 
the WW analogy of potion research institute, or something like that, 
but to keep him away from children.

Oh, and before I get the objection that this is needed for the sake 
of the story, because I used to get them, let me disclaim again - I 
KNOW this and without Snape being in Hogwarts we would have no story, 
BUT the characters do not know that they are in the story ( ugh, I am 
always having trouble explaining it correctly), so from the point of 
view of Dumbledore ,who does not know that he is in the story, 
accepting Snape to be a teacher makes little sense to me. Trust him? 
Yes. Help him to find a way to make a living? Absolutely. But NOT 
endager the students, because Dumbledore decided to give hima  second 
chance.

To be fair, I think Dumbledore suffers from having to wear too many 
hats, way too many -  He has different responsibilities as 
Headmaster, as Leader of OOP and as spiritual leader of the light ( 
that mostly speculative title, but I think it is there - sort of lead 
by example) and those responsibilities sometimes require to take very 
opposing actions, IMO.


Oh, and I LOVE "Les Miserables". Talk about great story of  the 
redemption. The difference why the story of Jean Valjan worked so 
well for me as redemption story is because we SEE Valjan being 
genuinely remorseful for his sins ( which IMO are so small and 
insignificant in comparison to Snape's - he stole because he was, but 
that is not the point) AND  we see him being nice to all people  and 
keep sacrificing his own happiness for Kosette  and Marius ( 
spelling?). I believed Valjan remorse because I read about it on the 
pages over and over again, I cried when he died.

Going back to Snape, I think that his remorse is only hinted to in 
very brief passing, everything else is just us filling out the blanks.






> Elyse: 
To make a short story slightly longer, yes trust is an 
> essential part of his character. That is exactly why JKR should not 
> make Snape evil. Because then she would imply that the essential 
> feature of the epitome of good is such a tragic flaw. <SNIP>

Alla:

Since I think that Dumbledore having flaws is pretty much established 
in the books already, I would be perfectly fine with such implication 
and yes, just because someone did something bad ( killed Dumbledore, 
IMO) does not mean that he cannot take a different path in the future.



> 
> Elyse, who does not think Dumbledore made any huge mistakes
> 
> P.S. I know this is totally unrelated to the topic, but someone
> (Betsy?) asked before, how people can say Snape would not do such-
and-
> such a thing because it would be OOC, and wondered how people could 
> possibly *know* Snape so well. 
> I want to know how come people keep saying Dumbledore /would/ do 
> certain things, because it would/would not be in character. I know 
> that we have more info on  DD than Snape but we still dont know all 
> that much abot his character
>

Alla:

I think that was Nora,actually,who wondered how people can know Snape 
so well that they can be sure that his scream at the end of HBP ( I, 
the HBP) was OOC, but in any event, here is the post by 
Hickengruendler, who explains my POV pretty well. :-)

I absolutely believe that we have MUCH more information on Dumbledore 
than on Snape and we can speculate with more certainty ( does not 
mean that we would be correct, of course) whether at least those 
moments are IC for Dumbledore or not.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/141745

Thank you, Hickengruendler. Even when we disagree, you can explain 
what I meant better than I did. Love your posts, always. :-)


Of course, JMO,

Alla.