CHAPDISC: HBP1, The Other Minister

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 141843

SSSusan earlier:
> > I do think it's interesting that, after this fairly promising 
> > start, we end up with a MfM who's really just incompetent in 
> > slightly different ways than the former one.  Anybody disagree 
> > with me on that or care to convince me otherwise?
 
Collin:
> I have a hard time deciding if Scrimgeour is incompetent or not. 
> Certainly he fails to get Harry to sign off on the MoMs Actions, but
> does this qualify as incompetence? 

SSSusan again:
That's the question, I think.  To me, Fudge is *obviously* 
incompetent (and you provide an excellent explanation of this 
below).  With Scrimgeour, I guess where I find myself questioning his 
competence is later on... when, not only does he fail to bring Harry 
aboard [and he really *does* muck those attempts up -- Harry sees 
right through him], but also when he makes arrests just in order to 
be making arrests.  He seems to be not only failing to make much 
progress, but he's engaging in really inappropriate action in 
arresting and *keeping* detained people whom he really should not.  

I definitely class that as a form of incompetence, though perhaps 
there is a more appropriate word than that?


Collin:
> Fudge's biggest incompetence as a politician is his total inability 
> to control himself.  When something flusters him or angers him, he 
> is unable to conceal it, and Dumbledore totally uses this against 
> him in OOP during the Hearing, and later when the DA meetings are 
> revealed, to influence the outcome of the situation.  During the 
> hearing he backs Fudge into a corner over the issue of the presence 
> of the dementors, and Fudge blithers and seethes....

SSSusan:
Heh heh.  The list elf in me knows I should have snipped more, but I 
couldn't resist leaving in "blithers and seethes."  Such an apt 
description of just what Fudge does. ;-)  Yes, you've nailed it with 
Fudge.  Not only is the guy actually incompetent, he's not even very 
good at covering up the fact!


Collin:
> In fact Dumbledore and Fudge are a study in contrast, the former 
> cool and calm and totally unfazed even when he is forced out of 
> Hogwarts, the latter totally transparent when he is outraged or 
> upset.
>
<snip example of DD tripping up Fudge over the dementors> 
> 
> I see echoes of this pattern in the conversation between Scrimgeour
> and the Muggle Prime Minister, with Scrimgeour in Dumbledore's role
> and the PM in Fudge's.
> 
<snip Scrimgeour tripping up the PM over Kingsley> 
> 
> So I guess I'd conclude that Scrimgeour isn't incompetent, at least
> not nearly in the way Fudge is.  He may be taking the wrong actions,
> but as a politician he is skilled enough to manipulate others and 
> keep his own cool, which Fudge is not.  He may fail to convince 
> Harry to sign off on the MoM, but I'd say he was fighting a losing 
> battle to begin with....

SSSusan:
Now *that* is an excellent catch of that similar pattern in the 
interaction between DD & Fudge and the one between Scrimgeour & the 
PM.  And, while I'm *certain* I didn't catch on to that when I read 
it, perhaps you've highlighted why I did think Scrimgeour showed 
promise of competence when we first met him.  Because, while it may 
have been a losing battle to have tried to bring Harry aboard, as I 
said above, my opinion is that Scrimgeour really *botched* those 
attempts, too.  And Scrimgeour caved to the kind of political 
pressure/"must stay popular" garbage that Fudge would have done when 
he arrested people *and kept them detained* just so people couldn't 
say he wasn't accomplishing anything.

So, in the end, I agree with you that Fudge and Scrimgeour are quite 
different, and Fudge's incompetencies are more apparent and possibly 
more widely spread, but I was still disappointed at where Scrimgeour 
went in the story, after what felt to me as a fairly promising start.

Siriusly Snapey Susan