Snape as the dark young man/Extra Material On Trelawney's Card Reading

[AyanEva]

No: HPFGUIDX 141892

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at y...>
wrote:
>
> > Ceridwen now:
> > Can anyone point me to the first reading, where Trelawney is turning 
> > over the hand of spades?  <snip> The reason I want to 
> > know is, does anyone else think the 'Knave of Spades' might refer to 
> > Snape?  He has dark hair and eyes, is young compared to Dumbledore, 
> > is possibly troubled, and he dislikes Trelawney.  What else was in 
> > that reading? <snip>
> 
> Carol responds:
> 
><snip>
> 
> As for your question about Snape being the young man referred to by
> the Tarot card, that was my immediate reaction, too, except that I
> thought the qustioner was Dumbledore. Snape is dark (except for his
> pale/sallow complexion) and wears black robes, and he's quite young
> compared with Trelawney (much less Dumbledore). He is certainly
> "troubled," having placed himself (and Dumbledore) in a terrible
> predicament by taking the Unbreakable Vow. 
>
Me Responding: 
I agree that Snape is the "dark young man," but I kind of thought the
questioner was Harry. I've assumed that the questioner is the one for
whom the reading is being done, but not every card would have to be
*about* the questioner. So, I had a sudden though today that Harry was
the questioner and not all of the cards were specifically about him,
rather they were about events that would occur and those people who
would be involved. Obviously, this whole scene involves Harry somehow
or JKR wouldn't have him in Trelawney's vicinity. So, Trelawney's
flipping through cards and the reading comes out as Harry's because
he's there, even though she doesn't see him. Hence the "That can't be
right." 

OR

Interestingly, after I had this thought, I spent a great deal of time
online trying to find the exact combination of Trelawney's reading; I
couldn't find it. I kept coming up with the Knave as "a boy" and only
the Knight showed up as "a young man." However, as I mentioned before
Trelawny does say, "Well, that can't be right." on page 196. Could she
be referring to both an actual and accidental misreading of the cards? 

1)An accidental "misreading" in that the reading came out for Harry
because he was right in the vicinity. To her this reading seemed a bit
botched up because she couldn't see Harry, but in reality it was spot on. 

2)An actual misreading because, being a littly batty and drunk, she
mixed up Knave with Knight.

 
<snip>

Carol said: 
> For all these reasons, I think the young man is Snape, not Harry. My
> problem with this reading is the suggestion that Snape doesn't like
> Dumbledore (assuming that DD is the "questioner"). If this reading is
> correct, then Snape is evil, and I don't think he is (as I've already
> made clear in numerous posts so I won't repeat myself here). For that
> reason, I want to explore the possibility of an alternate reading,
> with Snape as the young man but someone other than DD as the questioner.
> 

Me again:
At this point, if Harry's the questioner in the scenario that I
described above, we don't have to worry about the "Snape doesn't like
Dumbledore" problem (I don't go with ESE!Snape either; Snape's still
*good* darnit!)


>Carol said: 
> And Ron, who also
> hates Snape and is seldom right about anything...<snip>

And me yet again:
ROFL For some reason, this makes me laugh every time I read it! *holds
sides laughing*
-----------------------

I figured I'd run with this card thing and give my deck a go. Sorry if
I repeat anything that's been mentioned before!

And now for a little extra on Trelawney's playing cards:

2 of Spades: conflict
7 of Spades: an ill omen
10 of Spades: violence
Knave of Spades: a dark young man, possibly troubled, one who dislikes  
                 the questioner

I got to wondering if the meanings of these cards were constant
throughout all (or most) tarot decks. Many seem to be pretty similar,
with the exception of the Knave/Knight issue that I mentioned earlier.
However, my deck of cards is a bit different than most. Don't ask why
I have a deck of tarot cards... I'm not very good at it without the
accompanying book and I just use them for fun, mostly. As you continue
to read, keep in mind that I'm no expert at this, I just think it's
fascinating.

A little background. The first issue is that my cards use the
traditional suits, with the exception of Coins. I have Cups, Wands,
Swords, and Pentacles. However, the decks that I looked at online are
named slightly differently (I don't know if there's a difference in
meaning between suits if names are substituted): Wand is replaced by
Stave and Pentacles is replaced by Coins. The other two, Swords and
Cups, are the same I think. So, Spades in a card deck corresponds to
Swords in my deck. So now it's:

2 of Swords
7 of Swords
Ten of Swords
Page(ie: Knave)of Swords

But then there's the issue of only finding the "Knave" description
from the book under the "Knight" heading when I tried to look this up.
The closest I got between Knave and the "dark young man" description
was "a boy." Clearly JKR didn't want us to think of a boy, since she
has Trelawney saying MAN. So, I'm going to go for broke here and use
the Knight card in my deck in place of the Page/Knave. I should note,
however, that the Page in my deck *could* work OK in this reading if
it referred to Harry.

So to refresh: 2S, 7S, 10S, KnightS (not Page/Knave). Like all of the
posts that I make, this is going to be very long, so you might want to
skip to another thread now. I'd like to post the long version of these
position descriptions, but I think it's way too much material. A shame
too, because it really puts the divinatory (is that a word?) reading
in context. 
----------------------------------

This is from a book that goes with my cards called, "The Mythic Tarot:
A New Approach to the Tarot Cards" by Juliet Sharman-Burke and Liz
Greene. Published by Simon & Schuster, NY, 1986, Eddison-Sadd Edition.
And yeah that citation was all wrong. Here's an Amazon.com link:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671618636/002-9134313-6003253?v=glance
Sharman-Burke and Greene are apparently a very reputable bunch when it
comes to mythological studies and, for the most part, it seems this
deck and book are fairly well-respected. Discounting the occasional
complaint on quality of the cardstock and book binding. So, it's not
your usual mumbo jumbo.

Here we go then.

2S- "On a divinatory level, the Two of Swords implies a state of tense
balance where there is a refusal to face some impending situation of
conflict. A more creative way of handling this situation might be to
try to face what is before one, rather than attempting to preserve the
status quo, which will eventually be disrupted anyway (147-48)." 

7S- "...the Seven of Swords heralds a time when it is necessary to use
guile, tact, diplomacy, and wit rather than strong-armed bullying
tactics to achieve one's ends. This may leave an uncomfortable feeling
of falseness, but life may require it (154)." 

10S- "...the Ten of Swords heralds the final ending of a difficult
situation. The ending may be painful, but at last the situation is
faced truthfully, and a new future, with fewer conflicts, can begin
(158)." 

KnightSwords (remember, we're switching out the Knave)- "When the
Knight of Swords appears in a spread, it is time for the individual to
be prepared for sudden changes which break apart the ordinary patterns
of life. These changes may be inaugurated by an individual coming ito
one's life who possesses the quicksilver, fascinating an disruptive
qualities of the Dioscuri; or it may take the form of a new idea or
vision which erupts from within oneself and which throws ordinary life
into disorder for a time. Thus, whether the Knight of Swords appears
from without or within, his gift is the ability to move with changes,
and the turbulence which he brings may ultimately lead to a broader
vision of life (163-64)." 

Just so you know, if we use Page/Knave in this we get:

PS- "When the Page of Swords appears in a spread, it is time to meet
within oneself the childlike curiosity and potential for spiteful
gossip which the Page embodies, and which marks the beginning of the
use of mental powers. One may oneself be the victim of others' gossip;
or there can be a tendency to start petty quarrel and to be irritable
and difficult. But these things reflect the emergence of new ideas and
true independent thinking- often in one who has been accustomed to
accepting the views of others (161)."  

I really wished they'd just happend to mention the particular spread
that Trelawney's using. It would really help. I don't know what
positions these cards are in!

At this point, I have no idea what to make of this. The spread seems
to fit Snape perfectly, but not Harry. 

We continue.
::::

I just looked up 4 card spreads and got that 4 card spreads are for
making quick decisions. And that's all I could find. The positions are:

1)Ahead- What you need to do to achieve your goals
2)Back- negative actions/obstacles that are going to get in the way of 
        you trying to reach your goal 
3)Stray- stuff that's causing you to stray
4)Fortune- whatever's on this card is an added bonus

Unfortunately, using this spread makes no sense whatsoever. NOTHING
fits. The only solution is that Trelawney wasn't finished her reading.
 What if the reading was supposed to be longer than 4 cards, she
thought she'd messed up, so then she stopped and started over? It
makes sense because she stopped in the middle of a sentence before
starting over again. Just because I like it, I'm going to say that
Trelawney was using the traditional 10 card celtic cross spread and
she got through the first four positions before restarting.

Position 1: 2S
Position 2: 7S
Position 3: 10S
Position 4: KnightS (I think this, like in Trelawney's spread, is most 
            telling, so I've quoted it directly)

1)Covering Card/Significator (using the latter): reflects the 
            situation (inner/outer) in which the questioner finds 
            himself/herself.
2)Crossing Card: situation (inner/outer) that's causing conflict and 
                 obstruction at present
3)Crowing Card: immediate atmosphere and situation of questioner at 
                present. Reflects what's on surface and immediately 
                apparent in questioner's life.
4)Base of the Matter: "This describes the inner and outer situation, 
                        drive, instinct or aspiration whch is really  
                        behind the apparent surface situation 
                        reflected by the Crowing Card. What is at the 
                        base is really what is at the root of the  
                        psyche, and often this card comes as a   
                        surprise to the seeker, who may not have been  
                        aware of an unconscious motivation which needs 
                        to be brought into awareness. We do not always 
                        act or feel things for the reasons we think,     
                        and the card which appears at the Base of the 
                        Matter will often contradict the apparent  
                        reason for our dilemma at the time of 
                        consulting the cards (202)."

If we assume that Snape is being referred to in the card at the 4th
Position, then he's the "Base of the Matter." That has the added bonus
of making me very happy. *waves her SexySnape flag* Position 1 is
Harry's current situation as it appears, which needs little
explanation. What we don't see is Position 4, which is the driving
force behind Position 1. Positions 2 and 3 don't need much explaining,
I don't think. Best of all, Trelawney's card readings agree with the 4
positions fairly well. 

Would you believe I just spent, like, the last 3 hours or so typing
this thing? How sad is that? *rubs eyes sleepily* I personally, think
she was doing the 10 card celtic cross spread and stopped, rather than
just doing a 4 card spread. As far as I can tell the cross spread is
pretty standard, so it would make perfect sense for her to use that in
every day activities. The 4 card seems to be for making quick
decisions and there's no indication that she was doing the reading to
make a quick decision. And since when has she done anything quickly
anyway? I can totally see her wandering the halls doing really long 10
card readings...

What does this tell us about HP as a whole, and in particular Book 6
and Book 7? Yeah, I don't know. I'm not that clever. Anyone want to
give it a go? I've tried, but I'm just too sleepy to think by this
point. *yawns*


 
AyanEva