[HPforGrownups] Thoughts on Tonks - LONG and rambling (was:Re: What's In A Patronus?)

[silmariel]

No: HPFGUIDX 141939


Thanks for being so patient, all of you who were waiting for this reply.

truthbeauty1 in 141574 Tonks is Tonks:
> I do not see Tonks' strange behavior in H.B.P as needing any other
> excuse besides being young and in love with someone who won't return
> that love.

Ok. I don't buy that excuse for all the changes, but is elaborated below and 
in the original post. 

truthbeauty1:
> She is much more passive, and also normally in large open spaces where it
> would be hard to be clumsy, I.M.O.

Really? And I thought that she should be clumsier, being depressed, love 
striken and passive - yes, I've seen RL cases of a depressed person going 
/more/ clumsy. I think it's a matter of opinion.

truthbeauty1:
> The patronus situation is also used as proof for some that Tonks == Mrs.
> Malfoy. 

It's just another of the details.

truthbeauty1:
> I see this situation as proof that this idea is wrong. First of
> all, Tonks  finds Harry and helps him into the castle. Why exactly would
> Narcissa help the boy who basically landed her husband in prison and has
> been the bane of her son's existence for 5 years? 

Well, the point of the theory is that Narcissa isn't a psycophat monster as 
her sister, nor a hard line mugglephile as her other sister. I did see her 
concerned over Mr. Black just to the point of covering social appearances but 
no more, in ch 2. The bane? His son needs growing if he thinks so. But in 
this book imo the bane of Draco is Voldemort, is a very deadly, real and 
short term menace. Blowing up your cover and possible help acting ooc for 
Tonks since day one isn't exactly an expected behavior, and Snape says in ch 
2 that Harry is for LV, period. Even an ESE!Cissy doesn't have motives to act 
differently here.

truthbeauty1:
> Then there is Snape' very cold welcome. 

And very logical, considering what they were up to the last time we know he 
saw her (with her being Cissy). Easy to be resented of that.

truthbeauty1:
> Snape sees the Patronus and recognizes it for what it
> is, a werewolf <snip> Snape hates Lupin, thus Snape now hates Tonks. 

Considering Tonks as herself here, the thing is, I don't think he hates Lupin. 
I thought he was giving her good advice <g> and telling her not to be so 
evident. Only a reading, of course, the reading for Cissy!Tonks is in the 
original post. 

truthbeauty1:
> Also, I don't believe that someone could fake their Patronus. If Narcissa   
> has one,  I don't think it would be a werewolf. I can't see how that would 
> be comforting to anyone who wasn't in love with one.
>

I didn't want to go and reread, so I searched the Lexicon -thanks people-: We 
don't know if Tonks patronus is a wolf, only that it is an "immense 
four-legged creature" - ch 8. It's Harry who believes that. 

truthbeauty1:
> Tonks' appearance in Hogwarts isn't stange to me either. We know that she
> is on patrol in and around the Castle, so why couldn't she be there quickly
> if she thought the man she loved was in great danger?
>

I agree that isn't extrange, what is fun is Malfoy so conveniently near and 
the way the scene is presented. In case of deciding to try and talk to Harry, 
why not say directly 'Came to see DD but nice to see you Harry' and talk a 
little instead of acting like someone that is on the run. She doesn't have to 
ask for letters from the order (wich is an odd thing), if she really knows 
the minimun about Harry&Lupin, he is the only friend of his parents he can 
talk with, so it's as natural to ask Harry about Lupin, as for example asking 
him about the Weasleys, more family to him than his own.

truthbeauty1:
> I would love to know if anyone has any canon proof to either support or
> argue the points mentioned
> above.
>

Going upthread 3 times or post number 140624 and you'll find every canon 
reference we have found, but I doubt /proof/ can be found, it's canon 
support. Try to find /proof/, not only support or intuitions, but real, 
convincing proof, of the existence of Horcruxes before HBP.

Now with the posts in this thread:

Jessica:
>While I'm not entirely convinced of Narcissa!Tonks, I love the theory that 
>someone else could be impersonating Tonks for the entirety of HBP.  Tonks 
>seems way too different in this book than in OotP, so something must be out 
>of whack."

All speculation on Imposter!Tonks is welcomed. Fleur? maybe Bill has been 
around werewolves too much for his own sake and that's why Greywolf gives him 
personal treatment.

Jessica:
>*sonorous voice*  Draco, search your feelings.  You know it to be true.  
><grin> ... Since my only requirement for enjoying Book 7 is that no 
>character be (shockingly!) revealed to be the parent of another character, 
>I'm going to propose another alternative."

lol  - let the Phoenix's song guide you - he isn't a real father, only a 
surrogate one - say Narcissa with the years has had enough time to change her 
teen views about Lucius and Snape, and Draco - Draco matches the blacks' 
pattern for names and the Roman name requirement of Lucius - if at the same 
time coincides with a family friend patronus, is almost in the top names list 
by default - it's more a tale of making choices and slow changes than a tale 
of unexpected parentship.

There's not an only aproach to this question. Say an ESE!Narcissa and an 
ESE!Snape form a natural alliance, and if we are to buy he's been able to 
foolish everyone then he could have made space for Cissy.

Ewe2 plays more with on her own Cissy, as you, and I favor the betraying DE 
side, but that is choosing flavors.

Jessica:
>Narcissa!Tonks is on her own.  This leaves a number of questions unanswered - 
>mainly, how did Narcissa kidnap Tonks, and how does she maintain the 
>transformation?  

Kreature helped to know what was going on between Lupin and her, she used a 
love potion to set a lure - then Imperio - hey, if love sickness justifies 
losing magic, the patronus and clumsiness, I don't know why it should be 
difficult to buy that it also lowers your I.Q. and awareness skills. Imperio 
someone that she's going to be in contact with and you have an excuse to 
visit - Fleur for example if works in Gringotts. A more realistic scenario 
should be needed, but you get the point. Both Moody and Barty Jr were held 
for long periods, it isn't unheard of.

Slughorn clearly shows polijuice can be made in small-business quantities.

Narcissa has motives of her own to be emotionally upheaveled, so she wouldn't 
have to fake that.

Jessica:
> Which leads me to my next thought:  Metamorphmagi are rare, 
>and you have to be born one.  Does it run in families?  Could Narcissa be a 
>metamorphmagus?  (I know, I know, what are the odds?  But hey, it's only a 
>theory.)   Maybe she doesn't need the Polyjuice at all.

Or she doesn't need a lot of make up, being related. The same odds as having 
three animagi in the same house and year, or that a day in the calendar 
appears out of nowhere without even a comentary? At least we know that the 
Blacks -in general- are talented in magic, and there seems to be directly 
inherited abilities rare in the population, as parsel.

If Cissy doesn't need to polijuice is raised the question on Tonks' chances of 
survival, but she may have not killed her both on the 'I'm not really a 
killer' approach or as Plan B (beg for mercy if you are caught) is not 
probable to succeed if you left corpses all around.

Jessica:
>I've been wondering how Patronuses carry their authorship if you can change  
>their shape.  How would Tonks expect to know that *she* was sending a  
>message to Hagrid, if her Patronus changed?  Are members of the Order in the 
>habit of answering strange Patronuses, just in case someone's changed their 
>signal,  in the same way that I sometimes read the contents of my spam email 
>file?

Don't ask me. I don't believe she changed it <g> but it's the kind of things 
that our fellow listies explain wonderfully.

Jessica:
>Molly, who'd not only believe it, but maybe do Narcissa!Tonks a few favors 
>with regard to an order Member who shall remain nameless. 
>*cough*Lupin*cough*  Tracking the werewolf who's tracking the werewolf who 
>likes to bite children and is running around with your son's new pals seems 
>like a vigilant mom thing to do.

I agree if there is a moment to be motherly Fenrir raises all warning flags. 
Interesting approach.

Jessica:
>Where's the clumsiness, indeed?  In fact, since we don't know very much about 
>Tonks, I find it interesting that the two things we know for sure about her 
>don't make an appearance in HBP.  Is Tonks less clumsy when she's 
>grieving/in love?  Why doesn't she ever metamorphose? 

You have nailed it, the point isn't if a change in clumsiness and abilities is 
natural or not for a 'love striken' magic user, and in the case of clumsiness 
I think is a matter of opinion that being down on spirits makes you /less/ 
clumsy. Is that we knew two things for sure and that are the ones that been 
not only challenged, buried in the GARBAGE SCOW. And if that isn't enough, 
she has changed patronus...

She presents a character that I knew for two traits, without them, and with 
the new to this book rule that "severe emotional upheaval" can make you 
change your patronus and love sickness can deprive you of magic. If you 
accept love as explanation for everything, that's fine, if you don't, the 
warnings are clear that something funny is going on. Merope gets compared 
with Tonks as proof of it, but I don't find them on the same level, Tonks for 
what I know isn't undereducated and virtually ketp at home to be abused for 
all her life, isn't subjected to severe mistreatment, etc. Other characters 
in the HP series have endured problems(Cho was a clear candidate at the end 
of GoF-OoP), angst has been on the run for a long time, and we don't have an 
epidemy of magic abilities lost. Taken together, this makes the excuse just 
an excuse an not convincing, to me. 

Jessica:
>Why does Harry compare 
>Draco's weight loss to Tonks's haggard look?  Do "guilt" and "stress" read 
>the same as "lovesick"?  Could Tonks be like Draco because they are, in 
>fact, on the same side?  Could Tonks be ESE?

I find Tonks uneasy, avoiding eye contact, and her appearances are quite 
surrealistic, too 'hit and run'. More than depressed (not discounting it) she 
seems a bit nervous. Purely imo.

Jessica:
>And most importantly, what does Snape think of Tonks?  (Kidding.  For the 
>love of all that is good and holy, KIDDING.)

Kidding, of course :) He thinks she was better off when she was alone - so he 
sais it as the patronus remark - he's giving good advice (he agrees with 
Lupin) <g> in his usual *cough*charming*cough* way.

guz/guzguzu:
> I have read these theories with great interest, though, I admit, I do
> not believe them. 

>With all due respect, I will try to open up the meta-
> question, which is: if you assume the theory that someone (Narcissa, or
> anyone else) is impersonating Tonks, can you theorize the author's
> motivation or idea behind such a story arc? 

But I can't theorize for anyone else, I have tried but there are themes 
covered with Narcissa that aren't touched so easily substituting with other 
character. It challenges Harry's PoV, but that is fair game considering Harry 
is 'an unreliable narrator', and at the same time it doesn't cross thematic 
lines. 

I feel she has warned us, also.

It fits with the insistence present in HBP of 'dismeanor' magic - given 
Snape's first lessons elements have been used in this book - even we can tie 
the reference to the DoLD, I'm more than confident that it isn't going 
against author's intention expecting the potions presented in Slughorn's 
first class as to be considered. Maybe wrong, but not subvertive. I've had 
more scenes about identity or memory theft and imperio that I needed, by far. 
That she has made minor uses of it in the plot only tells me it should be 
being applied in a wider scale. I know once it's seen that something it's 
used in the plot, it tends to be authomatically devaluated in terms of 
seeking more explanations, but what the text is telling me is that I 
shouldn't disregard it in terms of the whole story, because she has hammered 
on the theme, so she can fairly use them at large without cheating. It's like 
putting some loaded guns on the table and then keeping refering to them and 
telling how anyone can carry it, that kids do use it to try to kill their 
parents, and then think everything's ok because we see them in action once. 
Not with a book to go, in a two book story.

guz:
>The motivation behind
> Molly's, Lupin's, and Harry's words (with respect to Tonks) in HBP to
> all be either completely wrong or lies? 

Harry gets her wrong all the book. Bill? Sirius? No! Lupin! - that explains 
all for him, but he's just accepting it as he accepted the first two 
explanations. But that's Harry habitual self.

And why should OoP show every secret to Harry? I never get why is Harry to be 
presented with an open book of everything that's going on, he never has been. 
Maybe he is not opened to Voldemort know, but he still is an easy prey for a 
Legillimens and someone known to be betraying Voldemort will have a quick 
uneasy death. If DD didn't do anything about Draco in order to gain time, I 
don't know why they should tell him of a DE-sided changing or tempted to 
change sides, specially when he is obsessed with Draco so it won't go as 
unimportant info, it would easily be on the top of his head.

You don't have to change the T/L ship or what is said about it, it can be real 
and a good means of camouflage.

guz:
> Or the motivation for such a
> complex, multi-book story arc to spring up among minor characters, in
> the second-to-last book of the series? I am not seeking clarification
> upon the theory as far as the plot details, but as to how this idea
> would fit into the series the author has presented. Do you think it
> would fit in with the themes that JKR has presented so far? 

I'll try to explain.

Oh, well, I was expecting that Regulus would come up again, because brothers 
are important, and being his age he could have been in school with 
interesting classmates, but not in the way it turned out. Anyway, it's tying 
the two books, even as a red herring.

To me, secondary plots are the salt of the land, considering the basic story 
its quite known by now, the hero goes defeats biggest bad buddie saves the 
day. It would only add value having multi layered plotting, but I don't see 
it complex, it's only part of a family changing sides leaded by 
circumstances, I see Barty Crouch Jr. history more complicated. There's no 
strict need for a Snape Cissy ship, but it is an easy adding given the way 
Spinner's End is told. Snape's patronus is a nice add on.   

They are not so secondary characters and I think this started developing in 
OoP with the introduction of the Black family tree and Regulus and will end 
in 7, but is planted long ago.

1. We have a pack of families that are closely tied and make a subset of the 
WW at War, but instead of talking of mere extrangers or almost unnoticed (by 
Harry) alumni, they are close to Harry even as antagonists so they have more 
impact. As if they were representing a threatre play about some related 
families with members fighting in different sides. Far, unseen victims risk 
too much the Red Shirt sindrome.

Blacks, Malfoys, Lestranges, Tonks, Weasleys. This is a consistend trend in 
the seven books. She deployed Sirius, Weasleys and Malfoys as important from 
earlier books and then she tied them up in a family tree, so having members 
of that families play important parts is not out of that pattern, imo. Of 
course, Lupin gets involved in a romantic way so he's not expected to be in 
the same family tree.

2. I hope it is accepted as an stable argument that DD is the human nearer to 
be the epythome of good. He offered faith in Draco, he offered him 
protection, I'm only making Narcissa as grey as her son instead of completely 
black. Here enters the integration of the Houses theme, also carried from 
OoP.

3. for the shipping part of the theory, well, I was as surprised as anyone as 
the sudden boom of shipping, but it seems she has made clear that it is a 
theme and not only a relief or character one, LV's birth is based on a 
dramatical ship.

4. there's something here that fits with the wise bearded wizard always dies 
and if you save a girl from a legendary monster you get her - obviously 
constructed with a lot of work but still conventional - with the three 
sisters - one of them was always bad - one always good and the youngest blond 
get the interesting heroine part of the story.

5. It can be a shortcut to Hx - that Malfoy hidden room that appeared in book 
2 and has been searched for again in 6. Raise hands those who want to glimpse 
Malfoy Manor and its secrets (this isn't a retorical question, I'd like to 
know if there is an interest, but I suppose it enters in the realm of the 
polls section). 

So I think it doesn't clash with earlier books or author's intentions. You may 
like it or not (it /is/ difficult to buy, I assume that), but as theories go, 
I think I'm not backstabing canon, only having fun, fast and loose, as in the 
old days. 

Silmariel