Re: Interpretation (was Re: Dumbledore's "“peaceful expression”?

[juli17 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 142006

 
Neri:
<Snip>...the inconsistency is 
only with Dumbledore's  very vague and hole-riddled explanations that 
everybody acted "at once".  Only if everybody acted at once, how come 
Harry is having a public collapse,  breaks into Umbridge's office, 
reports a mind attack by Voldemort, taken at  wand point to the 
Forbidden Forest, closely saved from a herd of rampaging  centaurs by 
a rampaging giant, takes a flight all the way from Scotland to  London 
on invisible horses, enters a breached and deserted Ministry, tours  
the wonders of the Department of Mystery and has a chat with a bunch 
of  Death Eaters, and he still beats the Order to the mark? Calling 
this a  "math-based inconsistency" is a bit of an understatement.

 
Julie:
Okay, how about general inconsistencies ;-) One thing to  remember is
that JKR has stated she wrote the end of OotP in a hurry, to  get it out
for publication on time. So this would be one place where  inconsistencies
might logically pop up, especially as *so much* was going  on. It's not the
least inconceivable to me that JKR would have lost track of  the timing,
or that the editors, considering the size and complexity of  OotP, would
not have done the math here (they were under time  restraints, while we
have plenty of time to fine-tooth comb through the books).
 
Which does bring me to a thought, and now I'm curious. Did you (or
anyone else) notice this missing time during the DoM events on your
first read of OotP, or was it only on later perusal that you (or  someone
else here) first noticed? I personally didn't notice it until the subject  was
broached on this list. 


> Julie, earlier:
> But within canon there is
> NO  later reference to validate any plot significance. Dumbledore 
> never  brings it up, no one ever does, 

Neri:
This isn't accurate. The  question of who is responsible for Sirius' 
death is certainly discussed.  Harry brings it up immediately and 
Dumbledore nobly shoulders it all himself  while avoiding a satisfying 
recount of the Order's point of view.  
 
Julie:
I was referring to the missing time. To my recollection, no  one, including
Dumbledore, has actually referred to it (along the lines of  wondering why
it took so long for the Order to arrive at the  DoM).

> Julie earlier:
> not then and not later (a  later
> possibility being one of the Order--say  McGonagall--commenting
> after Snape has killed Dumbledore, "I always  wondered why it took
> Snape so long to summon the Order to the Department  of Mysteries.
> He must have done it on purpose, to help Voldemort get to  Harry!" or
> some such.) 

Neri:
As I wrote here before, that  would have been a bit cumbersome writing 
for JKR, because it isn't easy to  explain the timeline issue in a 
single sentence, or even in a single  paragraph, and it was also 
slightly redundant anyway, seeing that Snape had  just stunned a 
teacher, AKed the headmaster and ran away with a bunch of  DEs.
 
Julie:
Perhaps, but it seems to me it might also be a time when  reasons
you wondered if Dumbledore's trust in Snape was wise might pop 
into your head. And if there had been any doubt about  Snape's
punctuality in notifying the Order about the DoM, this seems  like
a time that doubt might resurface. 

> Julie earlier:
> Neither does Snape mention it at a  time he might be
> expected to, during his self-defense speech to  Bellatrix ("I also 
> delayed the Order's arrival at the Department of  Mysteries. It's not
> my fault you and the others couldn't do your part  before the Order 
> arrived"). 

Neri:
It wouldn't be good  politic for Snape to mention it at that point, 
because it would be  tantamount to admitting that he *did* warn the 
Order in the end, and Bella  would immediately accuse him of failing 
the operation. However, Snape does  claim a part in getting rid of 
Black.
 
Julie: 
Good point. Though even if Snape did deliberately delay  his warning, he's
a bit too impressed with himself if he really thinks he had a  part in getting
rid of Sirius. Yes, he baited Sirius about being a coward, but  he in no way
lured Sirius to the DoM. And he couldn't influence Sirius to  take Bella too
lightly at the DoM. In retrospect, he can claim he had a hand  in it, but 
Sirius would have done everything exactly the same way whether  Snape
baited him or not. Thus, Snape's deluded about his own  importance, or
he's simply padding his DE image for Bella. I suspect the  latter.

> Ceridwen:
> In Spinner's End, page 29 US,  Bellatrix seems to think the Order 
showed 
> up much too soon:
>  "They were joined, as you very well know, by half of the Order 
before  
> long!"  snarled Bellatrix.
> 
> Snape doesn't say  anything to this, as Bellatrix moves on to why he 
> doesn't reveal the  location of Order headquarters, and it's just 
left 
> lying in the  dust.  'Before long' indicates something less than 
five 
> hours,  to me.

Neri:
Bellatrix has a good personal reason to shorten the time  she and nine 
other DEs couldn't beat six unqualified teenagers. In addition,  it 
seems Bellatrix only refers to the time since the DEs surprised Harry  
in the DoM, not to the flight from Scotland and the adventures in the  
Forbidden Forest (I'm not sure she even knows about this part).


Julie:
At the moment I think it's probably a moot point. The real  question is 
whether
the missing time (3.5 hrs or 5 hrs) is significant to the  plot. And I don't 
think
it is. I think JKR just got a bit sloppy here, in her rush to  finish OotP. 
She
liked the imagery of the times she used (e.g., dawn as the  incident ends),
and didn't notice the time lapses.
 
And though the time lapse is essentially canon even  if it might have
been unintended by JKR, I can think of a reason Snape might  have
delayed notifying the Order, one that has already been  broached--It 
took him awhile to finally realize Harry had gone to the DoM.  This 
delay in Snape's realization is very consistent with his  character, 
especially with the argument that Snape doesn't really  understand 
Harry (for instance, when he thinks Harry closing his mind and 
acquiring the most skills possible is what will allow him to  defeat 
Voldemort, when Dumbledore knows--as we do--that Harry  capacity
for love is what will eventually defeat  Dumbledore.
 
Snape's general lack of empathy is pretty much agreed upon (I  think).
Snape sees everything from his own POV, and is rarely able to  put
himself in someone else's shoes (rarely, because I did see a  glimmer
of that attribute during the Occlumency lessons, when he got a  good
look at Harry's past home life). This inability to see the  world around
him from anyone else's perspective is part of the reason why  he's not
a very good teacher. He expects his students to acquire skills  with 
the same ease he does, expects them to apply themselves to  the
degree he would, etc. If they don't, he has no concept of why,  beyond
the assumption that they are either stupid (Neville) or  recalcitrant
(Harry), or both (Harry again). 
 
It would be the same with realizing Harry's intentions in  OotP. Snape
would never consider going to the DoM, he would never fall for  the
trick Harry did, so he doesn't immediately conceive that Harry  would
do so. As time continues to pass and Harry doesn't appear,  Snape
eventually has to think outside his box a bit, and consider  other
alternatives to the "obvious." He actually has to think "What  would
Potter do? What would *I* do if I was a stupid, headstrong boy  overly
impressed with my own sense of importance? If I actually felt  some
affection for that self-destructive idiot Black, and thought  he might
be in danger, even though all logic indicates that I'm being  cleverly
manipulated because I've allowed my mind to be an open  book to the
Dark Lord. Hmmm, what would I do??"
 
Anyway, it could take Snape a while to get to this point. If  we need
an explanation for that "missing time" (though I expect JKR  doesn't,
and won't ever bring it up--unless she reads HPfGU!), this is  as good
a one as Snape deliberately waiting out of malice, and it is  more 
consistent with the lack of any later  reference or suspicion about 
the missing time.
 
IMO,
Julie 






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