Wizards in a Muggle World (was:Spinner's End as home...)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 142311

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03"
<horridporrid03 at y...> wrote:
>
> > >>bboyminn:
> > Well, of course the analogy is flawed, I'm comparing a fantasy
> > fictional world to the real world, but Chinatown does illustrate   
> > ... a real world example that one smaller divergent culture 
> > can live isolated in another larger more pervasive culture. 
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Oh, I realize you weren't trying to draw an exact parallel.  
> However, I think the idea of groups of wizards living together 
> within a Muggle city or town is heading in the wrong direction.  
> Wizards are trying to keep their culture hidden, and large 
> gatherings would make that harder, I think.
> 

bboyminn:

Actually, I thing we are more in agreement that it might seem. There
is a limit to my analogy, and I do like to bring it up when the
discussion turns in this direction. Not you, but other people find it
difficult to impossible to believe that one divergent culture like the
Wizard World could exist inside another larger prevasive culture like
the UK muggle world. My Chinatown analogy points out the it is
actually very common for just such a thing to occur. But the analogy
doesn't go much farther than that when applied to the Wizard World.

Another smaller secret societies might be the Freemasons (Masonic
Temple); again, even that analogy is flawed, but, within reason,
Freemason live all around us, and you never really know, your neighbor
might be one.


> > >>bboyminn:
> > Also note that while it is the objective of the wizard world to   
> > remain /secret/, it is not necessarily their objective to remain   
> > hidden. ...
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, I agree.  ... Amelia Bones exists ...  The fact that she was
> a *witch* was a secret, however.  So it was important that any 
> strangeness on her part (not having a phone, odd wardrobe choices, 
> etc.) seemed like an anomaly rather than part of a larger culture.
> 
> > >>Betsy Hp:
> > > ...
> > > And I think it *would* be easier to hide how different you 
> > > are from your neighbors if there's only you, or just your       
> > > immediate family.
> > > <snip>

bboyminn:

Actually, on this point, I agree with you. The books show a wizard
world that, in terms of living, keeps itself separated from the muggle
world, and more to the point, separated from /itself/ in the muggle
world. 

In otherwords, in this case, birds of a feather, make a point of not
flocking together whenever they are in the vicinity of muggles. This
is a clear and conscious choice that overrides human nature. And you
are right, it's easy to overlook one crazy lady living in the
neighborhood, but if 6 crazy ladies move in next door to each other,
that's a little more difficult to overlook.

  
> Betsy Hp:
> 
> Or, if they're a bit braver, they can venture out into town or 
> amongst their neighbors and impress the local beauties with their 
> ability to do card tricks.  Or, (to harken back to the very 
> beginning of this thread <g>) a young pure-blood witch could venture 
> out into her local town, fall for a Muggle boy and end up marrying 
> him.  Of course, this begs the question of how a mixed-marriage like 
> that is handled.  Seamus, for example, talks about a wizard cousin 
> of his.  Does he hang with his Muggle cousins at all?  Would his 
> father's brothers or sisters or parents, etc., know about Seamus's 
> and his mother's little secret?
> 
> Betsy Hp

bboyminn:

Well, I can see Fred and George trying to 'woo' the local beauties
with card tricks, but few other wizards. If we take the case of Merope
Gaunt. She simply observed Mr. Riddle passing by, and was attracted to
him. I suspect that she knew who he was and in her mind fantasized
about what a grand and rich, and Gaunt-free life he must live.
Eventually those fanatsies grew into obssessions. 

I think in most cases, these things can happen simply. A wizard looks
out his front window and see the comely daughter of one of the
neighbors and becomes attracted to her. So at some point, he makes a
little more effort to get himself noticed. Eventually, they say 'Hi',
they talk, he invites her to a local 'low stress' muggle cafe for
lunch. Things progress, they fall in love. At some point, they have to
have 'The Talk'; no not the sex talk, the wizard/magic talk. If things
are still on track after that, then the relationship has a chance.

I really don't see much of a 'dating scene' in the mixed magic/muggle
world. I suspect encounters happen in a less planned, very low-key,
and random way. You're out of milk, and my chance you risk a trip the
the corner store, you bump into someone attactive, you talk, etc...,
etc..., THE TALK, wedding bells.


Rambling now-

All that said, and acknowledging that the books, at this point in
time, are against me. I'm not completely ready to abandon my 'flock of
birds' idea. As I said, I can envision small isolated groups of
wizards descretely banding together to form neighborhoods. I confess
this comes from my own fan fiction which takes place in roughly 2014
to 2020.

I think it started with the issue of Grimmauld Place. The Black family
tapestry shows 700 years of family members. That makes them a very old
family, and I suspect their house has been where it is for a LONG
TIME. But we see the neighborhood is rundown, but at the same time,
it's a reasonable walk from a main subway station. In a sense, it's
prime real estate (as is nearly all real estate in London), and its
rundown shabby appearance makes it a prime location for redevelopment. 

So, what happens to Grimmauld Place if muggle redevelopers come in and
turn Grimmauld Square into up-scale housing? Or plow everything down
and put up a shopping complex? It happened in Docklands, which, as far
as I know, actually was just what its name implies 'dock lands'. Now
it is up-scale condo's, office space, and shops. So, again where does
that leave Grimmauld Place? 

This is a valid dilemma in the books. Other wizard houses could just
be sold back to muggles. But I get the sense that 12 Grimmauld Place
is very old, and as Sirius said, his father made sure the house had
every known muggle protection placed on it. I suspect that even
without the 'Secret Keeper' charm, muggles would have a very difficult
time finding number 12, even if they lived in number 13. 

My solution was for the very rich Weasley Brothers, to become the
redevelopers themselves, and sell the resulting housing to wizards and
wizard-aware muggles. Thus they create a wizard-aware (very small)
neighborhood, and that protects 12 Grimmauld Place. 

You may ask why you would even care about my fan fiction, but it does
present one of many real world problems that will surely remain
unsolved by the end of the series. I mean this is prime centrally
located London real estate, there is bound to be a problem sooner or
later. 

Another real world problem, as an example, would be the taxman. All
those years that Black house sat empty, who paid the property taxes on
it? I seriously doubt that the Tax Office just magically forgot about
the taxes on a substantial townhome, or that the Tax office magically
forgot that a several hundred year old parcel of land even existed.

I mean really, enquiring minds want to know. 

Anyway Betsy, I think the books very much support your ideas about the
wizard world. I wasn't arguing with you so much as trying to add some
perspective.

Steve/bboyminn