[HPforGrownups] Why can't Harry? WAS Re: Why Can't Harry and LV live while the other survives?

[elfundeb]

No: HPFGUIDX 142313

Valky wrote:
>snip<
> The one thing I have not resolved to the point, I think, is why
Harry
> cannot live while Voldemort survives.
>
> 1. Voldemort survives as long as Horcrux Harry lives, hence Harry
> cannot live because he remains the marked man forever hunted by
Voldemort.<
 There's a non-Horcrux version, too: Harry cannot live because Voldemort
believes he must kill Harry; therefore, Voldemort will continue to hunt him
down until the final confrontation occurs.
 And there's a Horcrux version of the non-Horcrux version: Harry is a
Horcrux, but Voldemort did not intend to make him into one, i.e., he only
intended to use the soul fragment torn as a result of Harry's death to make
one, or he intended to make a Horcrux of Harry's dead body and believes he
has failed. (Yes, I know this would require that the first part of the
Horcrux spell be cast as part of the AK, but there's no canon to refute
that.) So, Voldemort is hunting Harry down because of the Prophecy, but
without knowledge of Horcrux!Harry.
 I actually think Unknown!Harrycrux is the most likely Harrycrux scenario,
because if Voldemort were aware of Harrycrux then he's attempting to kill
his own soul piece; and while it's not out of the realm of possibility --
Dumbledore pointed out the risks of using a horcrux that can think and move
for himself, even if it's not an enemy -- I think Voldemort's overconfidence
would come into play in that case. But even if Voldemort knows what he's
attempting to destroy, *Harry* does not know it and we the readers don't
know it.
 Geoff wrote:

"If Harry is indeed a Horcrux than we know that he will have to die in
order for Voldemort to be destroyed once and for all. He could make
the choice of running away and hiding; the alternative is to face
Voldemort knowing that he will go down with him. And that places him
on a hiding to nothing. He has got no real choice in that
eventuality."
 Debbie:
I guess I don't see how Harry has a great deal of choice as it is. Voldemort
is hunting him down. He has always only had one choice: to decide whether to
run and hide (and be dragged into the arena to face the battle) or to walk
into the arena with his "head held high". It's the choice he has now, but
aside from the specific information about horcruxes that allows Harry to
develop a plan for *how* to enter the arena, it's really no different from
the choice he had in GoF. Harry *was* dragged to the arena (the graveyard)
to face a battle to the death, but still he held his head high. From ch. 34:

"[H]e was going to die, and there was nothing he could do about it . . . but
he wasn't going to play along. He wasn't going to obey Voldemort . . . he
wasn't going to beg . . . "
 and
"He was not going to die crouching here like a child playing hide-and-seek;
he was not going to die kneeling at Voldemort's feet . . . he was going to
die upright like his father, and he was going to die trying to defend
himself, even if no defense was possible . . . "

Since Harry's already made his choice, I don't know how a Harrycrux would
restrict his choice in Book 7.
I am attracted to Horcrux!Harry theories in part because I've always thought
it fairly likely that Harry would be called upon to sacrifice himself. But
I've never envisioned that he would have time to brood over his supposed
lack of choice; it would be a sudden realization of the nature of his task.
 My scenario is this: The Harrycrux would not be discovered until the
"final" confrontation, in which Voldemort's body would be destroyed (not
necessarily by Harry) but Vapormort would escape. Harry would then have two
choices: (i) let Vapormort escape, returning to the state of affairs that
existed during Harry's childhood, or (ii) sacrifice himself, which would
release Voldemort's soul to the next great adventure. And by sacrifice, I
don't think Harry would kill himself; rather, he would allow himself to be
AK'd by some ready and willing DE. And there's always the possibility that
Harry's magical protections would allow the Harrycrux to be destroyed
without killing him. Either way, there's plenty of Bang to go around.
 I'm not going to give chapter and verse here on how this connection
supports the Harrycrux theory, because I'm sure it was done over the summer
while I was away, but will do so if asked.

Eileen:
<I am beginning to imagine that 'either must die at the hand of the
other for neither can live while the other survives' simply means
that by the time the prophecy comes into effect it is war to the
knife between Harry and Voldemort, and neither can 'live and let
live' while the other survives, tying in with Dumbledore's words
towards the end of the 'Horcruxes' chapter in HBP. Not a bangy
solution, so I am still hoping it doesn't turn out that way.>
 Debbie:
There's also the Harry-Voldy connection, which presents the possibility that
either could control the other, as Dumbledore himself suggests in OOP ch. 37
(The Lost Prophecy). Voldemort hasn't been exploiting it lately but as long
as he can manipulate Harry's thoughts, the connection arguably prevents
either from being complete.
 And then there's the fact that Harry is now hunting down the means of
destroying Voldemort, and he expects to have to kill him. So neither feels
he can live while the other survives (though Harry did a pretty good job of
it over the last year).

Debbie
who has now used up her extra hour and must go change the clocks


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