Not a Dark Mark ?

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 139326

Valky:
> > Throughout HBP Draco starts to look more and more sickly. He keeps
> > disappearing. In Borgin and Burkes he shows Borgin something that
> > frightens him, Harry thinks its a Dark Mark, but how can we be 
> > sure. Can we even really be sure that a Dark Mark would frighten
> > Borgin? When Snape showed Fudge his burning Dark Mark, it didn't
> > frighten him much, and there are many in the WW who don't even
> > know what they are. Well it could be a Dark Mark, but since there
> > *is* reason for doubt, then why don't we call it a Werewolf bite ?
> > 
> > John Granger, to whom the credit for this brilliant find belongs,
> > has written about it on his site at this link.
> > <link sniped>
> > 
> > Thoughts anyone? Or are we all as dumbstruck as me?


> Jujube:
> First, he's not the first person to float this theory--it's been out 
> there for a while now.

Valky:
Okay. 

> 
> Second, you have to evaluate his theory *in the context of 
> everything  else he has in that "essay"*. 


Valky:
Why? It has good consistent canon basis of its own, JG has drawn a
valid literary parrallel, to this particular theory, and what you're
telling me to do sounds like flat out prejudice, I don't do that.

Jujube
> There are a number of factual errors 
> on the part of this self-proclaimed Potter scholar 

Valky:
I'm sorry, has he offended you personally by giving himself a pen name?


Jujube:
> (for example, he 
> can't get Umbridge's name correct)

Valky:
Meaning what exactly? 


Jujube:
> and there are things he writes 
> which completely fly in the face of what we know is true.
> 
> For example, he writes:
> 
> > Ms. Rowling says nothing in her Fantastic Beasts books on Veela 
> > or Vampires and she has been positively vehement in recent
> > interviews in her denials that Professor Snape is a vampire. This
> > lack of information and truthful misdirection, of course, protects
> > her story line, which she admits is her second priority in life
> > after caring for her young family.
> 
> This set off all of my warning bells.  He purports to be a Potter 
> scholar, but he thinks JKR outright lies to us in interviews? To 
> assume she is lying when she has thoroughly discounted the entire 
> Snape/vampire storyline is to read things that are not there into 
> both the story and into her interviews. JKR plays fair. She may 
> misdirect, but she does not lie.

Valky:
I agree with you, but why is that such a problem? I am not the
slightest bit inclined to pretend I have been extra perfect in my HP
writing. Being wrong is pretty unavoidable in this game, in any
scholarly exercise anywhere actually. That's why the red and blue
marker where invented, and ticks and crosses, I think. 

Vampire!Snape is an utterly remote subject fom the seeming canon hints
that Draco has been bitten. They should be discussed and regarded
separately, don't you think?
 


> Jujube:
> 
> Most of the theories about what will happen in the book *which are 
> not tied to the alchemical story* exhibit, IMO, the same willful 
> ignoring of what the text actually says. 

Valky:
Like you seem to have done with my post?


Jujube:
> Now on to the "Draco is a werewolf" theore.  He writes:
> 
> > One such turn-your-thinking-upside-down post came from Mary Ailes,
> > whose idea was supported immediately by Laura Henderson (who had
> > been working on parallel tracks simultaneously). Their theory is
> > that the secret Moaning Myrtle wont tell Ron and Harry about Draco
> > isnt his secret mission to kill Dumbledore or that he is a closet
> > Death Eater. The secret she cannot tell them is that Draco is a
> > werewolf.
> >
> > Now, before you run from Myrtles bathroom hooting, run this scene
> > through your minds eye again. Were on the Astronomy Tower under 
> > the invisibility cloak and immobilized with Harry. Fenrir Greyback
> > appears and the nasty man-wolf is picking the flesh out of his
> > teeth. Dumbledore is disgusted that Greyback is eating human meat
> > out of his season,
> 
> I think Dumbledore's disgust is not because Greyback is hunting "out 
> of his season". I think it is because Greyback *hunts children*.

Valky:
I agree with you on that point about Greyback, and I admit I had
forgotten JG credited his source. A mistake on my behalf, which I'll
happily admit to. I guess that will destroy the credibility of
everything I ever say now, IYO? <eg>
But seriously, what does his misreading of Dumbledore have to do with
sinking the theory?



> Quote from Hogwartsprofessor.com: Jujube:
> > tells him so, and adds, tellingly:
> >
> > And, yes, I am a little shocked that Draco here invited you, of 
> > all people, into the school where his friends live.
> >
> > I didnt, breathed Malfoy. He was not looking at Fenrir; he did not
> > seem to want to even glance at him. I didnt know he was going to
> > come - (Half-Blood Prince, chapter 27, Scholastic p. 594)
> >
> > Step back for a moment (watch the Tower edge). Draco Malfoy has
> > been working all year to kill Dumbledore with a certain disregard
> > for the lives of anyone and everyone who might get in the way of 
> > his Hail, Mary shots at the greatest wizard living. Dumbledore
> > knows this and does not confront Draco only because he fears 
> > Dracos Occlumency is not good enough to shield himself from Lord 
> > Voldemorts penetration.
> >
> > Knowing that Malfoy is acting with bizarre disregard for the lives
> > of his friends in the erratic attempts on Dumbledores life, why is
> > the Headmaster shocked that Draco invited a werewolf into 
> > Hogwarts? I think the reasonable answer is the Draco Wolfboy 
> > theory, that Dumbledore knows Draco is a werewolf and tha Fenrir 
> > Greyback bit him on the arm on the Dark Lords orders to punish his 
> > parents. Dumbledore had to make the arrangements with the Potions 
> > master to make the Wolfsbane Potion Draco would need to get 
> > through the year (a thought that Draco or Horace perhaps does not 
> > guard at the Christmas Party, which explains the look of fear on 
> > Severus the Legilimens face there).

> Jujube:
> First, and quite importantly, Draco's disregard for his fellow 
> students most definitely does NOT extend to his Slytherin/Death 
> Eater pals.  They are never, ever in danger from what he does.  He  
> would not put his friends in to danger.  

Valky:
I disagree. Draco is fairly disregarding of everyone, including his
friends. I don't think Draco is cpable of never ever putting his
friends in danger, he makes rather a lot of demands of his friends,
I'm sure he wouldn't ever knowingly plot against them, but he gets
them hexed all the time by making them help him throw his weight
around. I don't think you have a whole lot of canon to base that on,
since there really hasn't been a great deal of actual danger besetting
Draco and crew pre HBP.

OTOH I tend to disagree with John on this too, the argument for Draco
having disregard in general is interesting and fairly canonical, IMO.
But for me, it leads to speculation that Dumbledore realised a Draco
and Werewolf connection in that moment. The wolfsbane potion story is
really unecessary to me, though its up to each person to read
speculation for themselves and decide what they believe. As I have done.

 

> Jujube:
> Second, the "reasonable answer" is that Draco knows the Death Eaters 
> who are with him there will only kill Dumbledore, the members of the 
> Order of the Phoenix, and those students who have aligned themselves 
> with the Order and who engage voluntarily in that battle. The 
> children of the Death Eaters--that is, Malfoy's friends--are safe. 
> Horrible though the DEs may be, they will not harm the children of 
> their group.
> 
> Greyback, on the other hand, is under no such constraints. He kills 
> willfully and for pleasure, and has a special fondness for children. 
> He is the most truly despicable character in the books, and a true 
> stroke of genius as written by JKR. He will not care if he kills and 
> eats Gryffindors, Ravenclaws, Huflepuffs, or Slytherins, including 
> the children of Death Eaters. Draco knows this and that is why he is 
> afraid--he is afraid that this truly evil creature, not bound at all 
> by humanity, will kill his own friends.   THAT is why he is so upset 
> to see Draco there.  He could care less about killing anyone outside 
> of Slytherin.  But now, with Greyback on campus with his friends,  
> and with flesh in his teeth, Draco finally begins to understand the 
> full scope of the evil he has signed on with.  The glamour of evil,  
> like the glamor of the veela, is now showing its horrible ugly 
> underside.
> More importantly, if Draco *were* a werewolf, why would he be afraid 
> of Greyback? He's already a werewolf. Greyback can't do anything 
> else to him (save kill him, and that's probably the least of Draco's 
> worries at this time).

Valky:
Draco isn't necessarily afraid of Greyback in this scene, he certainly
doesn't run screaming from the building. Draco's behaviour when he
sees Greyback can be evident to a range of emotions from discomfort,
to fear, to plain loathing of the creature. Draco acts very guarded
about how he feels about Greyback. Generally guarded emotions IMO are
open ground for speculation until the canon is laid. This is, after
all, how we get away with discussing Severus Snape to the ends of each
book and back again all the time. 
I will say that your speculation is very good, and reasonable as you
say. But it is no less speculation than any other theory really, is it?




> Quote from Hogwartsprofessor.com:
> > The evidence put forth by Mary Ailes and Laura Henderson is
> > compelling. You have multiple descriptions of Draco in Lupinesque
> > condition, pale, haggard, sunken eyes (apparently this Wolfsbane
> > Potion must be a little like chemotherapy). He is constantly 
> > disappearing and in ill health. There is also the encounter in
> > Diagon Alley in the robes shop and the overheard conversation 
> > Borgin and Burkes.

> Jujube:
> But the course Voldemort has set for Draco requires a great deal of 
> planning, patience, detail-orientation, and the most efficient use 
> of time possible. How would he allow for the person to carry out 
> this plan to be turned into a werewolf which would at the very least 
> slow down the plans to the point where they could not be implemented 
> before the school year ends (because of the time lost every month to 
> the antidote), or at worst, completely upended because potion was 
> not taken and Draco transforms into a werewolf and tips his hand? It 
> makes no sense.

Valky:
Voldemort wouldn't care, for a start. The more severe the punishment
the better. Secondly Draco is a Slytherin boy, he is goal oriented, so
time management is a no brainer. And finally, Draco tries to take
shortcuts to get the job done, it did go slowly and it did seem to
have any number of setbacks including times when Draco seemed to
dissappear from school altogether. 

One extra thing, there is always the question of why Harry could never
see what Draco Malfoy was *doing* in the ROR. He asked the ROR in
every possible way to show him Draco, and the ROR never yeilded to
this. Why? As far as *we* know Draco was in there up to something, the
ROR should have supplied, unless there was a reason for it to say
*Draco* is not in here. If Draco Malfoy was no longer just Draco
Malfoy, then this would be true.


Quote from Hogwartsprofessor.com:
> > Harry, of course, assumes the arm wound is the fresh tattoo of a
> > Death Eater. Hermione is very skeptical throughout the book. When
> > in doubt, whom do you trust? Hermione or Harry?
> >
> > I, of course, trust the Granger over a Potter every time. 

> > Jujube:
> In books 1-5, yes. In book 6--no. This is the book where Harry takes 
> over. After Sirius's death and the revelation of the prophecy at the 
> end of book 5, this is a different Harry. This is a Harry who no 
> longer sees through a glass darkly. This book begins, for the first 
> time, with 2 chapters not from Harry's POV. That is a sign that that 
> things are being upended in the narrative. We hear Draco boasting on 
> the train, and we know from the scene at Spinner's End that Harry's 
> conclusions *are* true.

Valky:
That's speculation, Harry could still be as wrong as ever he was. He's
always been honest.


> Quote from Hogwartsprofessor.com:
> > Its a werewolf bite - and it scares Mr. Borgin, especially when
> > Draco says Greyback is a family friend. Hell be dropping in to see
> > you from time to time to make sure youre giving the problem your
> > full attention (Half-Blood Prince, chapter 6, p.125). 
> >
> > Mr. Borgin probably knows, as Lupin tells us, that Greyback is,
> > perhaps, the most savage werewolf alive today who regards it as 
> > his mission in life to bite and contaminate as many people as
> > possible and that at the full moon, he positions himself close to 
> > victims, ensuring that he is near enough to strike. He plans it
> > all. And this is the man Voldemort is using to marshal the
> > werewolves (Half-Blood Prince, chapter 16, Scholastic, 
> > pp. 334-335). Looking at Dracos bite probably has at least the 
> > effect of seeing the Dark Mark tattoo Harry imagines is on Dracos
> > arm.

> Jujube:
> Again, what purpose does this serve? It doesn't make any narrative 
> sense to have someone threatened with a bite, when the entire first 
> part of the book is devoted to telling us that both the wizarding 
> and Muggle worlds now know that Voldemort is back. The whole point 
> of the scene-setting in the first few chapters is to show the huge 
> difference between the ostrich-like behavior of the Ministry in book 
> 5 and their scramble to action in book 6. The Dark Mark is the 
> scariest thing you can see in a world beset by terror. It's much 
> scarier than a werewolf bite. As gruesome and terrible as Greyback 
> is, he is nothing compared to the Death Eaters. He is nothing 
> compared to Voldemort. Greyback's retaliation is a threat, to be 
> sure, but the scariest thing you can be threatened with is 
> Voldemort's wrath. Borgin had to have remembered what was like 
> during the first wizarding war. That is what spurs his fear--the 
> threat of that coming home to roost on him and his family.

Valky:
You know this with authority? The authors absolute intentions? I'm
sorry I just can't buy that. What you say above seems to me like a
perfect and preferred place for JKR to hide a brilliant plot
misdirection. 


> Quote from Hogwartsprofessor.com:
> > But what is the meaning of Dracos being made a werewolf? What does
> > it contribute to the story? It is, after all, not even mentioned 
> > in the Half-Blood Prince story-line. Draco Wolf-boy simultaneously
> > reveals the consequences of evil and makes the evil-doer more an
> > object of pity than hatred or judgment.
> >
> > The Malfoys are horrible people, to cut to the quick, who are Pure
> > -Blood Nazis and Death Eaters of the worst kind. They despise both
> > Muggles and the Mudblood wizards born from this breeding stock,
> > they treat their house-elves cruelly, and they conspire for the
> > return and triumph of the Dark Lord in the hope that they will
> > share in his power. Unfortunately, for them, Lucius failed the 
> > Dark Lord, who visited the failings of the father on the son to
> > torture the whole family. Draco is sent onto a suicide mission and
> > made into a werewolf besides to show to the Death Eaters in the
> > inner circle how severe the consequences of failure really are.
> 
> How can you create an entire backstory which is completely invisible 
> in the text, and then insist it's really there? IMO it's one thing 
> to so as a member of the online fandom, but to do so while also one 
> is also representing his/herself as a scholar is very puzzling to 
> me. A close textual analysis of the actual facts at hand supports no 
> such contention.

Valky:
This is invisible in the text? I disagree. Please point out what is
not canon, I can't find it.


> Jujube:
> I completely disagree with this scenario. The Malfoys are evil. 
> Period. There's no additional torture of having their son made into 
> a werewolf. It serves IMO no use in the plot. Draco is on a suicide 
> mission. What is the point of also making him a werewolf? Narcissa 
> knows her son is going to die. *That* is her punishment. 

Valky:
I can't seem to get my head around your sense of authoritarial
superiority. Why are you right? I apologise for being so blunt with
you, but I only see here a blatant claim that there will be no plot
twists and you have it on the utmost authority. I can't buy it. 

Yes Draco is on a suicide mission, yes he might die, but no, why
should Voldemort draw a line that you dictate? He's a coldblooded
murderer and Lucius screwed up his very important plot at the crucial
juncture because he was helpless against teenagers. Is Voldemort self
effacing enough to look upon Lucius failure with the amount of
leniency that you are saying? I really doubt it. For me, it's in
character for LV that Draco is "lucky" to be alive after that. Voldie
is not a reasonable person. The Montgomery sisters might be a place
for you to start looking at that. Lucius lost him his diary Horcrux
and it went unpunished, then he lost him his prophecy, you only name
one punishment for two sins. The equation is *not* balanced.



Jujube:
> That is the warning to the other Death Eaters--like the Pharaoh  
> killed the first born sons to try to kill Moses, Voldemort will kill 
> the children of Death Eaters who let him down. 


Valky:
But he didn't kill him. He sent him to kill Dumbledore. Voldemort
*took a chance* that Dumbledore would kill Draco. But Dumbledore isn't
 exactly a guaranteed lethal weapon. He is merciful and kind to
children. Voldemort himsefl knew that there was a greater chance that
Draco would survive if he ever got to Dumbledore. Dumbeldore won't
kill children he will try to save them and care for them, so Voldemort
would be playing on DD's weakness by sending Draco, not expecting
Draco to die. If Lucius was to be truly punished, then I don't think
Voldemort would count on Dumbledore to dish it out for him.


> Jujube:
> There's no need to add to that 
> particular pain, or to the horror of that threat--killing children, 
> or sending them to their eventual deaths, is more than enough. JKR 
> writes with a lighter touch than many people in the Potterverse will 
> give her credit for.

Valky:
Your opinion, of course.

> Jujube:
> Furthermore, our pity for Draco, when Dumbledore tries to save his 
> soul, in no way needs the added "knowledge" that Draco is a 
> werewolf. 

Valky:
I agree with that. DD would not need Draco to be afflicted by a
werewolf bite to show him mercy. DD just does that.

Jujube:
> It's a melodramatic, added plot point which is completely 
> out of synch with JKR's style and plotting.

Valky:
I disagree completely, but you knew that didn't you. 
This is not out of synch, Draco being revealed as a werewolf later
down the track could easily serve the plot. But we are just offering
opinion here.  



> Jujube:
> Plus, there already is one person bitten by Greyback: Bill Weasley. 


Valky:
True, but there are other werewolves. I only said werewolf bite, I am
open to it not having been Greyback.

jujube:
> That is the bite that is 1. supported by text and 2. has the 
> greatest impact. The pureblood Weasley family is now tainted. And 
> their response is love. As is Fleur's, marking her as one of the 
> Weasleys too.

Valky:
All the more reason for us to have something in the text to compare it to.



> 
> jujube 
> --
> Madam Pince's Sitting Room:  a strictly canon-based Harry Potter 
> discussion group opening for discussion in mid-September
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Madam_Pince/

Valky
Wondering what was the agenda of jujubes reply, *really*.