Academic dishonesty

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 139563


This debate is gtting so incredibly long. But I m going to add my two
knuts anyway, and I'll iron my hands later. 


> 
> Valky wrote, in message 139421:
> "Harry may have separate notations to the other class members, 
> however he still must translate those instructions into manual 
> precision, and accurately manifest the written instructions into 
> real life potion. Without these things, it is highly unlikely that 
> any set of instructions would make any difference. If we are still 
> yet comparing this with a chemistry prac then Harry's skills are 
> most definitely in credit."
> 
> Del replies:
> I would agree with you if we didn't know for sure that, when he
> followed the same instructions as the rest of the class, Harry did 
> not do very well. 

Valky:
Are you talking about in previous years when Snapes personal sabotage
of him was a factor, or in the beginning of his first NEWT lesson when
he was behind the other students because he had to get the ingredients
from the store cupboard and then couldn't read the directions in the
book because HBP had crossed them out and written over the top of
them? In ether case, the assessment of how well Harry was doing with
the instructions everyone else had isn't really a fair one. 


Del:
> That's even the reason he chose to try the HBP's notes:
> because he was getting desperate of making the potion turn out OK. 

Valky:
He was depserate because he had started later than everyone else, and
he couldn't read the instructions *under* Snapes handwriting, he
wasn't desperate because he was having trouble with the potion, except
that he found the bean hard to cut. Mind, though, that he was probably
using used and worn equipment to do it provided by the school because
he didn't have any of his own. He had to borrow Hermione's knife to
squash the beans so its likely he didn't have a good knife when he was
cutting them so that is not necessarily a lack of skill either.
 

Del:
> So we *know* that Harry is not extremely good at following a set of
> instructions. If he were, he would have made his potions turn out
> quite fine without having to resort to using the HBP's notes.

Valky:
No I don't think we actually do have proof of that, Del. Sorry :D


> 
> Valky wrote:
> it is possible that Harry's potions performance in HBP
> is actually representative of what he would always have been
> capable of with Snape lessons but no actual
> Snape in the room sabotaging him every few minutes. 
> 
> Del replies:
> It's a strong possibility. But it doesn't change the fact that Harry
> didn't deserve all the praise he got from Slughorn, and that he was
> competing unfairly against his classmates and knew it very well.

Valky:
I agree, after the first lesson tht he knew he was competing unfairly.
But he didn't know this the first lesson, he used the HBP's notes out
of desperation because he had no other way to make the potion at all
in time, a new book would mean he was starting from scratch again, so
he just took a gamble and it paid off. 
He didn't really deserve the praise from Slughorn either, I agree, but
Harry was never one to take praise to heart even if he did deserve it.
I think Harry is generally so modest and is used to just letting
people praise him because they want to, even though he doesn't feel
like he deserves it. It could be just another case of that.

> Valky previously:
> The
> fact is Harry is a highly skilled potions maker, Snapes notations
> did not control his hands his eyes and his ability to discern the 
> stage of the potion using his own senses. Those things he did 
> himself.

zgirnius:
I agree entirely about Harry's skills/accuracy in Potions making,
they are good. This is why he got an E in the subject on his OWL,
IMO. 

Valky now:
Yay, thankyou zgirnius, and I have to credit pheonixgod too, who
actually did post a comment on this before I did too, so I also agree
with Pheonixgod.

zgirnius:
The whole "cheating" argument, though, is that since he had
better instructions, he could achieve better results than other
students who are even *more* accurate/skilled, but were following
less useful instructions. (Note Hermione was doing better than Harry
in the first class, until Harry switched to the HBP's instructions,
for example.)

Valky:
Yes I agree that he could achieve better results through the HBP's
work, but I still don't think it is essentially cheating in terms of a
prac lesson, I agree that the praise for Harrys work was too high,
they weren't his innovations, but I disagree with the contention of
others that he didnt learn anything about theory from the lessons, I
in fact think he learned more. I digress.. sorry back to zgirnius. 

Something I find uncanny about the cheating debate, is that there are
some who think Harry was cheating, but would also say conversely on
another thread that Harry is not doing enough to learn everything he
can. I find one contradicts the other.

The reason I don't think Harry is cheating is because I think he
completely lacks intent, I don't think he hides the HBP's book out of
guilt, he hides it, I think, because its a resource that might be lost
if he didn't. He is looking at it the same way he looked at his
ability to see into LV's mind in OOtP. It's not about High marks or
competing with classmates for Harry at all. The HBP knew things that
*Slughorn* couldn't teach his class about Potions, it's *valuable* in
Harry's most imprtant goal, arming himself *uniquely* against
Voldemort. That is why he keeps it, and that is why he hides it, he
doesn't want it taken away, in case somewhere deeper inside it is
something he can use in his real life. If he really cared essentially
about marks and praise, then he could have gotten loads of it at the
Sug Club he so desperately tried to avoid. 

What I am trying to say is, Harry never cheated because he never
wanted to cheat, he just wants to get good at fighting Voldemort and
he kind of goes his own way about it.

Valky