Horcruxes, souls and bodies Was Re: either must die at the hand of the other,

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 139828

Saraquel replies to Geoff, Ceridwen and Valky:

Geoff wrote:
>As an aside, I often wonder whether we are assuming that Jo 
>Rowling, as an individual person, been able to work on some of the 
>minutiae of the
>plot and allocate as much time to it as the august body of 
>contributors here on HPFGU seem able to do. 

Saraquel: I have these thoughts frequently, too :-) However, when 
you are talking about something as integral to the plot as 
horcruxes, I think that JKR will have spent a great deal of time 
thinking about the mechanics of how human beings are made up and how 
she can work through her theme.  

If you have ever tried to make up a fictional universe which differs 
from our own, you will know how much time you need to spend thinking 
through your ideas so that when you get to the Bang! bits, they ring 
absolutely true.  The last reaction you want from your reader at 
that time is Duh! How does that work?  

However, she knew what she wanted to say from the off, so would have 
spent less time on figuring it out than we do. But consistency is 
everything, and I think that she has built her world on simple 
premises, and that is why the world she has crafted for us is so 
appealing.  In order to tie up Tom Riddle Horcrux `coming alive' in 
CoS and Voldemort returning to his body in GoF, she must know what 
the relationship between bodies and souls is.  If she doesn't, then 
my respect for her as a master craftswoman is misplaced, and I doubt 
that very much.

Geoff wrote:
>Have readers ever written an email or a letter or said something
>to find that the reader or hearer has put a totally different slant 
>on what was meant?

Saraquel:
Absolutely agree with you here Geoff.  Hence I always think that my 
speculations are what I am getting *out* of the book, rather than 
what JKR put *into* it.  However, that said, I do think that seeing 
if we can figure out a plausible explanation of JKRs underlying 
premises for the Potterverse may help us to get closer to resolving 
some of our questions about Horcruxes and what Harry is facing. In 
doing this I think that it is very important to keep coming back to 
canon, and seeing if the ideas are contradicted.  A very Karl Popper 
attitude here –If all the swans ever observed were white, it is 
still not possible to ever assert that all swans are white! Who 
knows – Book 7, Harry Potter and the Black Swan :-)

Ceridwen wrote:
>Going on, then, I'm going to have to agree to the pieces of soul
>returning to the original, or in this case, substitute body. I was
>completely against that, agreeing more that the pieces of soul
>returned to the 'ether' or wherever it is that bits of energy go 
>when released.

Valky wrote:
>I am not sure about that. I actually begin to think that when his 
>body was destroyed his spirit left him, and only the mangled form 
>of his last piece of soul remained. I lean towards it having been 
>written this way because Voldies recount of his life as Vapourmort 
>tends to sound like an existence without spirit, without impetus 
>for life.

Saraquel:
As I said in my last post, I tend to Valky's view here.  But I've 
been thinking more about what a soul piece is.  I've tended to think 
of it as a somehow solid thing, like a chip (I don't mean fried or 
burned here :-)). 

But reading about Voldemort's description of Vapormort, it's almost 
as though the soul isn't so much a thing (physical) but a 
personality.  A collection of thoughts, will, emotions – elements 
that make up the personality.  Vaportmort had to will himself to 
exist at every moment.  I almost get the feeling that he had to hold 
this disparate sense of himself together.  It would also explain 
Voldemort's being unsure of exactly what he was, if he was formless. 

If that's true, then a soul fragment released from its container 
would have a tendency to simply break up and evaporate into 
nothingness.  So I'd agree with Geoff and the, back to the ether 
theory. Would the personality of a young Voldemort have the strength 
of will to keep itself together after being released from the 
horcrux? – Don't know, possibly not.

This might also explain the desire of Dementors to suck out souls as 
food.  They feed on emotions and would break the soul down in their 
digestive system <g> am I really writing this??

It seems that in order to exist beyond the veil, you need both your 
personality and a container for it – body and soul.  So why might 
having *bits* of your personality not in your current body *prevent* 
you from going beyond the veil/ dying? 

Hmmm, have got some thoughts but 
 Oh, all right then, since you've 
twisted my arm. But dear reader, at this point I must warn you that 
as JKR has not given us any canon for what happens when you die, 
this is purely speculative, speculative.  I'll put it between ***** 
so you can skip it if you want to.  Saraquel continues, glancing at 
the list elves, who are watching with eyes narrowed, but she is 
quite prepared to abandon arguments and accept a slap on the wrist 
if requested to do so. Hmmm, do I detect a hint of Snape's love for 
lawn order in myself?

*********
Valky wrote:
>What is interesting though is that Diary Tom has all three of the
>essential pieces that we are discussing here when Harry destroys the
>Horcrux. Is a partial body and a partial spirit enough to endow a
>partial soul with a normal death?

It's coming back to the Last Judgement Love thread again.  If, at 
death, there is a right of passage which takes you through that love 
and forces you to confront the truth about yourself, then not having 
all of your personality present would be a big problem.  Also, one 
wonders, when Voldemort made a Horcrux did he lose some of his 
memories of the past with that Horcrux?  If so, then some of his 
misdeeds would not be present.  I could imagine that Voldemort 
meeting Last Judgement Love without all of himself being present 
would cause a huge bang! Big enough to smash his body to smithereens 
in the process.

It might then follow, that if you destroy horcruxes and the soul 
piece within them disintegrates, you can never regain it, and 
therefore never get past LJL and beyond the veil.  Hence the 
absolute horror of being punished by having your soul sucked out by 
dementors.  It would mean you could never get beyond the veil and 
join up with all your loved ones again.

***********


Ceridwen wrote:
>Nearly Headless Nick suggested that ghosts are what is left when a 
>person is afraid of dying, or unwilling to move on. Ghosts are 
>spirits.

Saraquel:
Ghosts leave an imprint of themselves on the earth, according to 
Nearly Headless Nick.  My current theory here is that the 
personality remains on the earth – i.e. the soul, and (referring to 
my arguments from my previous post) lives in the mould, made out of 
magical power/spirit, *without* the physical element of matter being 
present.

It would appear from what Nearly Headless Nick says to Harry at the 
end of OotP (p758) that wizards can choose to become ghosts.  But 
exactly what point this happens is not mentioned.  The fact that NHN 
does not know what happens when you die, almost implies that the 
choice was made before he died, or at latest, the moment of death.

It's interesting that he gives his reason for staying, that he was 
afraid of death – same reason as Voldemort.

Ceridwen wrote:
>Voldemort's <snip> snake-like appearance, his abilitiy to
>speak Parseltongue, and the whole imagery from The House of Gaunt
><snip> could Voldemort's Patronus, and his shape if he ever became 
>an Anamagus, be a snake? 

Valky wrote:
>Voldies Spirit. Does he have a kind of Snake Spirit? Meaning that 
>his appearence as a snakelike creature rather than a man kind of
>demonstrates his loss of balance between soul and spirit, he's been
>cutting and dumping bits of his soul and hence becomes kind of 
>spirit heavy. The blurred features are the snake ghost in him 
>becoming more visible as the human soul fades and becomes 
>transparent. So to say his original face has faded and thats the 
>blur, and the snake features are the waxing spirit face becoming 
>clearer.

Saraquel:
I loved these ideas.  Now I'm thinking that the personality embodied 
in the soul is what makes us human.  Animals have less ability to 
reason and we suspect a more limited range of emotions.  Hence, if 
you keep chopping bits of your personality off and storing them in 
kilner jars, the remaining bit starts to become less sophisticated 
and more animal like. This would seem to be confirmed by Voldemort's 
complete lack of a rounded personality. 

That you have an affinity with a specific animal is clearly shown by 
animagi and patronus charms.  It would also imply, that there is a 
close relationship between your personality and the body you 
inhabit.  Seeing as we have seen Diary!Horcrux create a body, and 
the body it created relflected the state of Riddle's personality at 
the time (possibly first division of the soul) that would be born 
out - he did not look like a snake, nor have red eyes. Also, Tom 
Riddle in CoS, definitely had a more diverse and rounded personality 
than the Voldemort that we have seen in later books. So as 
Voldemort's personality becomes more basic, so he starts to resemble 
the animal that most represents his fundamental personality – the 
snake.

Interestingly, in PoA, Sirius comments that he had a sweet nature 
when in his animagus form, indicating, that deep down he is a good 
man. I've just looked for the canon quote for that and can't find it 
immediately, I'm wondering if I've got some cross-pollination with 
the film here.

Finally, I think I'll just wonder aloud what a horcrux is, and 
whether Harry could possibly be one.  Well, if I'm right about a 
soul fragment being disparate formless elements of the personality, 
I think making a horcrux might involve imbuing an object with these 
elements, rather than containing them.  Although, you could think of 
them as being rather like a gas (hmmm, gas explosion at Godric's 
Hollow) in which case you would need a sealed container.  Locket 
that couldn't be opened – yes that fits - but what about the ring – 
there was nothing to suggest that it had a hollow centre.  Although 
the single crack, rather than total disintegration might imply a 
container rather than a fusing at element level.

If Harry is a horcrux, according to this theory it means he has some 
of Voldemort's personality in him. Well yes, he does show some signs 
of anger and vengeance, but not cruelty – which to me is Voldmort's 
trait par excellence.  Jury's still out, although the sorting hat 
looks at the personality type and judges from that, so it looks like 
it's going to be a while yet before they come back and deliver the 
verdict. However, if Harry really is a horcrux, then yes I think 
Harry could destroy the soul part (personality) that is within him 
without dying, just as we can change our personality by the choices 
that we make.  Sounds like an epiphany moment to me.

This seems to be edging me closer and closer to the prophecy, maybe 
I'll get there in my next post.

Saraquel