That darn Prophecy again.. Re: Thin air/Choices

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 140035

> Valky:
>
> The DADA curse itself is the most remarkable example. In the very
> first book Voldemort all but killed himself with it.

a_svirn:
Not necessarily. Voldemort intended Quirrel to die from the start.
He told his Death Eaters that his possession of the bodies of others
shorten their lives. As soon as he would obtain a brand-new body for
himself Quirrel would have died anyway.

Valky:
Yes I agree a_svirn, no question. Voldemort would have used Quirrel
up, drained him and left him for dead in any case. So that's not
essentially my point in saying this. The notion I am flagging is not
that Voldemorts curse almost killed him, although I know that's what I
said, I only really meant it to illustrate the fact that Voldemorts
two wills here - his past wills (Killing Harry - the DADA curse) and
his present will (getting the stone - using Quirrel) end up clashing
with each other in the middle, and despite that both wills work for
Voldemort originally, in the end they work against each other.


> Valky:
<snip>Could Harry live if Quirrel
> survived?

a_svirn:
If he survived as "Quirrel" why not?

Valky:
Yes I see your point, which is why I feel tht this particular line of
the prophecy is always the culmination of Voldemorts two wills when
they meet. Neither can live while the other survives. I am suggesting
that when Voldies will from one corner of the WW meets Voldies will
from the other corner, neither can live while the other survives. So
essentially what I am saying is as a representative of Voldemorts will
Quirrel could not live while Harry (in many ways being another
representative of the will of Voldemort) survived.



> Valky:
> Could Voldemort live if Harry survived? The answer is
> clearly no, isn't it. But it is not Harry's hand that brought this
> demise upon Quirrel in the end.. Over and over we are told that
> Voldemort's hand lay behind it all.

a_svirn:

Yes, and that's exactly JKR's point, isn't it?

Valky:
Are you agreeing with my interpretation here a_svirn? I am not sure I
understand what you mean by that.



> Valky:
> The Chamber of Secrets is
> the same, Voldemort gave Harry the ability to speak Parseltongue,
> Voldemort makes him refuse Slytherin and cling to his Gryffindor
> nature...

a_svirn:
??! I think you give Voldemort too much credit with this one.

Valky:
Yes I do, you're right. Because in the end it is a gut instinct in
Harry that causes him to know he should stab the diary with a Basilisk
Fang. But we are still not told where that instinct comes from, so I
am, I guess, submitting that its Voldie again. He's doing it to himself. 



> Valky:
> Either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while
> the other survives, this intrigues me so lately. > Either of two,
> it seems to me, is becoming ridiculously obviously
> *not* Voldemort and Harry, but Voldemort and Voldemort.
>
> Am I making sense now?

Brothergib:
I think you are saying that, in the end, it is one of Voldemort's own
Horcruxes that will be his undoing. 

Valky:
In a way yes. I actually think that Voldemorts hand will be behind
each and every one of his undoings. The force of two of his separate
wills will battle each other for survival and in every case it will be
Voldemort against Voldemort, neither will live if the other survives.
Only Voldemort is this absolute about his survival. 


Brothergib:
>From my POV, I have long wondered
if the correct interpretation of the line above i.e. 'neither can
live while the other survives' was that either BOTH are alive or BOTH
are dead. I had always thought of this as reference to Harry &
Voldemort, but it would certainly make more sense with your argument!

Valky:
Thankyou Brothergib, yes I think Harry will not have to murder anyone
if it happens this way, which I will like immensely. :D 


Brothergib:
However, I still feel that JKR makes far too much reference to the
power that Harry possesses and Voldemort fails to understand!
Therefore it still seems most likely that this will be Voldemort's
undoing, rather that anything of his own making.

Valky:

Yes the power the Dark Lord knows not. I am still considering how this
could be important. 
Since we are told that it is precisely Harry's ability to love,
something about that in particualr has figured in every one of Harry's
triumphs over Voldemort. Either I'm not seeing it yet, or I'm on the
wrong track. 

Looking at the two cases again, we know that when Harry faced Quirrel
under the trapdor, he very nearly died with the effort he exerted.
Dumbledore doesn't really elaborate much on what Harry's effort,
personally, was being put into. But we get clues from Harry's
thoughts, that he was just protecting the stone from Voldemort, he was
trying to save everybody. In that, I guess Harry was giving out a lot
of liove of his own, not just the love in his skin from his mother but
also his love, was crucial to the battle.
In the second case, the Chamber of Secrets it's Harry love that keeps
him alive. The healing tears that Fawkes gave him were a treasure of
great imortance, if he didn't have that initial power to love then he
most likely would lay dead in the Chamber f Secrets, so there again I
see that Harry's ability to love makes a said, *enormous*, difference,
but it is still Voldemorts own hand that kills Voldemort, I think,
when all is said and done. Just that Harry could not hold steady
Voldemorts hand while he does it without his enormous capacity for love. 

I wonder if I am actually on to something there? ;D

Valky