Dealing with Dementors: Harry v Snape, Love v Happy

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 140064

Kemper wrote:
> First, Snape has a different method than what *Harry* considers the 
> norm. Second, I question whether the skill is tied into love and 
> goodness:
><snip excellent quote>
> Imagining someone being sacked is not a thought filled with love nor
> goodness. <snip>
 But back to topic: Having Dementors around would make producing a
patronus harder, but if a Dementor would have suddenly appeared during
after Harry's patronus in his DADA O.W.L., I have no doubt that
Harry's Patronus, created from a bit of self-righteous contempt, could
have successfully charged and scared off that Dementor... easily.
Thoughts?
> 
Vivian (vmonte) responded:
> I don't know Kemper. If creating an effective patronus were that 
> simple then anyone could do it, no? Harry wasn't really fighting off 
> a dementor during his O.W.L.S. was he?   
><another great quote snipped>> 
> Lupin admits that it gets harder the more dementors there are. How 
> far then can a self-righteous memory take you? We also know that 
> during Harry's lessons he is not fighting a real dementor but a 
> boggart, which is not the actual thing. A lesser memory would also 
> probably do the trick here.
> 
> But self-righteous contempt does not explain how Harry was able to 
> knock down the "swarming dementors" at the end of PoA (IMO). It's 
> more than likely that it has to do with the love and goodness that 
> Harry represents/carries. <snip>

Carol replies to both:
Excellent points and support on both sides here. Since it seems clear
that both "love and goodness" and "self-righteous contempt" can create
a Patronus (at least in the classroom), I'd like to take the
discussion back to Kemper's original point, that just because *Harry*
can create a corporeal Patronus when he's facing Dementors doesn't
mean that his method is right for everyone. That being the case, I
would argue, Snape's alternate method might well be useful for
students other than Harry.

To begin with, I seem to recall Lupin in PoA saying that producing a
Patronus is "advanced magic, well beyond the Ordinary Wizardiing
Level" (although that quote may be from the film rather than the
book). It's not clear whether the Patronus Lupin casts on the train is
"corporeal" or not (though of course we know he can cast one to send
messages to fellow Order members). It seems to be merely a flash of
white light. As Lupin notes in the quote I snipped from Vivian's post,
producing a Patronus is difficult and gets more difficult with more
Dementors. In any case, Madam Bones is clearly impressed in OoP that
Harry can produce "a corporeal Patronus" at age fifteen (much less
thirteen, if she knew). Clearly, however, not every witch or wizard,
especially school-age kids, can cast a Patronus even in a classroom
setting or Harry would not have received a bonus point for doing so
during his OWLs.

We do see Harry's friends in the DA learning to cast a Patronus, but
not in the face of a real Dementor. In fact, they can't even practice
on a Boggart as Harry did since none of them has a Dementor Boggart.
(Somehow casting an Expecto Patronum against what looks like Professor
Snape or Aragog--or McGonagall telling you that you've failed all your
classes--isn't quite the same as casting one against a pseudo-Dementor
as Harry does in his private lessons with Lupin in PoA.) Harry has a
great advantage over his fellow students in terms of learning to cast
this particular spell effectively--the opportunity to practice the
spell on a pseudo-Dementor before having to cast it against real
Dementors. Also the Patronus he casts so spectacularly in PoA is done
from a distance to save his past self and Sirius from a Dementor that
isn't threatening his present (or is it future?) self. All of this
experience stands him in good stead when he's faced with the two
Dementors in OoP. In the same situation, however, Hermione or Ron or
the other DA members probably would not have fared so well. In fact,
the consequences if Harry weren't with them would no doubt have been
disastrous.

Casting a Patronus requires concentrating on a happy thought, easy
enough in the RoM with a group of fellow students but extraordinarily
difficult when you're faced with a Dementor determined to suck all the
happiness out of you (and possibly your soul as well). I wouldn't be
at all surprised if Snape (whose happy memories are probably few and
whom we know to be extremely creative with spells as well as potions)
had come up with a way of dealing with Dementors that was just as
effective as casting a corporeal Patronus and more easily grasped by
students who don't happen to have Harry's gifts or experiences. But
Harry's dislike of Snape, combined with his own experience in dealing
with Dementors in a way that works well for *him,* causes him to
dismiss Snape's method in favor of his own. And JKR, of course,
withholds any information regarding the nature and effectiveness of
Snape's method because it would give away too much about Snape's
loyalties. (I would note, though, that there's no evidence of his
sabotaging his own DADA classes by teaching useless or false information.)

It's possible that Hermione will face a Dementor in Book 7, fail
utterly to cast a Patronus because she can't concentrate on a happy
memory in the circumstances, and remember Snape's method. If she does
and it proves effective, it will be a nice piece of evidence for
Good!Snape before we reach the end of the book (when we'll know for
sure where his loyalties lie).

BTW, I think Snape's reaction in CoS when he hears that "the monster"
has taken a student into the Chamber of Secrets (his hand grips the
back of his chair tightly and he asks, "How can you be sure?") is a
fairly strong but widely ignored piece of evidence that he does care
about the welfare of the students, as is his insistence on nonverbal
duelling in his DADA classes.

Carol, thinking that Kemper and Vivian are both right and that there's
more than one way to deal with a Dementor