Random thoughts was: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hearing from the Great Middle

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 140132

Amber:
> Well, murder is murder, yes. But if he did it under the UV, to a 
dying and  
> targeted man, he didn't have much choice.(But there's nothing more 
selfish is 
> HP  than self preservation- it's what LV is all about and Lily is 
not)  Is that 
>  evil? It seems like yes and no to me. (And yes, I believe that DD 
is dead.   
> Snape is not dead, therefore DD is.) I don't think Snape would have 
murdered 
> him  without the UV, though. It's upstaging Voldemort, which will 
paint a 
> target on  his back anyway.

Ceridwen:
First, I agree that Snape killing Dumbledore is putting a target on 
his back.  Voldemort meant for Draco to die to punish Lucius, too.  A 
target on his front as well, perhaps?

I'm not so sure that the assumption that Snape is alive at the end of 
the book is a given, though.  Just something I've been wondering 
about, reflecting back, possibly wrongly, reading through various 
posts and re-reading Flight of the HBP.  *Could* Snape have been 
so... frightened, like Fang... reacting so strongly to being called a 
coward... because he knew he was going to die from *not* performing 
that AK correctly?  Or, because he *thought* he was going to die 
because it didn't feel right?  We've all gone back and forth on how 
it didn't resemble any of the *very* few AKs we've seen elsewhere in 
the books.  And, the last thing we hear about Snape is that the paper 
says they haven't found him yet, or somesuch.

For one or another of those reasons, I'm wondering, then, if Snape 
isn't dead, we just haven't heard yet.

>  
> I'm really starting to think OFH!Snape, with a bit of an honor 
code,  is the 
> true explanation.

*(snip)*
Ceridwen:
Sounds reasonable, though I make some reservations to myself here.
  
> And if he was truly on Voldemort's side still after the last war, 
he's  an 
> idiot, pure and simple. (BTW, Do you think if Harry delivered a 
lethal  blow to 
> Voldemort, that any DE other than Bellatrix would lift a finger to 
help  him?)

Ceridwen:
Yup, I agree.

> Maybe when he was a bitter, hateful twenty-something with a  
grudge.  But he 
> knows now that neither he nor Draco are any further use to  
Voldemort.  One is 
> an upstaging proven traitor whose spying cover is broken  and the 
other is a 
> useless coward.  LV will kill them on sight.

Ceridwen:
Good points about not going back.  I tend to agree.  He's getting 
out, not just from Hogwarts, but from spying and from the DEs as 
well, and he's going to hide Draco.

> Which is why I think Snape doesn't drag Harry to LV.  Because he's 
not  going 
> back.  He and Draco are going on the run.  And he will help  
Harry.  Not 
> because of loyalty to DD, but because he will die if he  doesn't.  
Morally 
> ambigious? Yes.  But it might spare him the death  penalty in Book 
7.

Ceridwen:
Another reason could be, as you suggested with this line: "I'm really 
starting to think OFH!Snape, with a bit of an honor code", that he is 
against Voldemort and the DEs, which may make for strange bedfellows, 
but doesn't necessarily mean he's heart and soul with the Order.

> Snape is, as JKR says, "a deeply horrible person".  But unlike her  
> unfavorite character, Vernon, and Draco,  Snape at least willing to 
make  choices.  And 
> as many have pointed out, the choice of killing DD and  getting out 
of 
> Hogwarts with a minimum body count, horrible as it was, was the  
only way.  Even 
> though it was evil. And it was murder. Whether the AK  or the fall 
or the potion 
> did it.

Ceridwen:
If the potion did it, then Snape is not guilty of murder.  But AK or 
fall, then yes, he is.  *Unless*, as suggested several elsewheres on 
this and other sites, there was something else in play (I have my own 
ideas, which I've mentioned, and won't go into here).

Now that you've contrasted Snape with Vernon, I'm wondering if 
there's some contrast in Dumbledore's visit with the Dursleys and the 
scene on the tower.  Probably not, but at this point, with book 7 not 
due for (at least) a couple of years, just about everything is fair 
game for suggestion and speculation.  By the time the book comes out, 
I'll probably be reading Dobby's palm for signs, and wondering how I 
got hold of Dobby's fictitious palm to begin with.

Ceridwen, who isn't actually addressing the original thread, but had 
some thoughts anyway.