Keep Harry Horcrux Free Challenge!

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 140155



> Saraquel:
> OK, I'm coming out fighting <snip>Please feel free to either come up  
> with a counter argument, or add to the list!

Valky:
Wohoo! OK Saraquel, you've asked for it.. everything that makes it
hard to believe Harry is not a Horcrux coming right up.


> 
> 1 )Evidence from Chamber of Secrets. 
> The Horcrux in the diary fed off Ginny in order to bring itself to 
> life. If Harry was a Horcrux, intentional or not, that piece of soul 
> would have been really trying to suck the life out of him and bring 
> itself to life, particularly as Voldemort lost his body in the 
> attempt.  Although, we can see dark influences in Harry's nature – 
> the attempts at unforgivable curses for instance – it doesn't seem 
> to me that he has had to fight off the attempts of a Horcrux to 
> bring itself to life.

Valky:
Two words.. Dudley Demented. 

Yes, I am asking you, what is that terrifying thing Dudley was forced
to remember whe the Dementors swooped upon Little Whinging?

Lets revisit the model, shall we. In OOtP Mad-Eye Moody scares the
wits out of the kids when they overhear him saying that Harry could be
getting possessed by Voldemort. 

Ginny who has experience in being possessed asks Harry, are there ties
when you've blacked out, and can't remember what you've done. hMmm
Can't rememeber hey? Well Harry certainly cannot *remember anything*
in Dudleys life that would classify as a traumatic experience, and
what if thats the point.. that Harry can't *remember* it..?
Ok, grabbing at thin air, I know. But something Has to explain Dudleys
Demented Terror, and I don't think we are told that Riddle terrorises
children for mere colour (although we could be, but a theres that
repeated plot thing that JKR does to think about).

In any case, recall. Vapourmort is helpless, attaching himself to
belgian fleas etc to feel alive, The Death Eaters are rounded up and
in Azkaban, Dumbledore *knows* how to hide people, fake their death,
and conceal them away and Harry stays at Privet drive 100% of the
time, Why? To me it certainly does seem like Harry could possibly have
been on the verge of being possessed this whole time. 

However, let me be frank, I am not married to Horcrux Harry. I'd like
to come to a separate conclusion that satisfies these problems.


Saraquel:   
> 2)Why does Voldmort need to use legilimency?
> If Harry was a Horcrux, embodied Voldemort wouldn't need to access 
> Harry's mind through legilimancy, the Horcrux would presumably do it 
> for him and Voldemort would know simply by being aware of that part 
> of his soul. 

Valky:
No I don't think that this is the nature of Horcruxes as we've been
given it in canon. Legilimency would still be necessary even if Harry
was a Horcrux I think. We are explicitly given by Dumbledore that
Voldemort is probably not aware of his Horcruxes. This of course acts
as a balancer too, we, therefore, certainly cannot say, either, that
the connection between Harry and Voldemort is because of Harry having
accidentally become a Horcrux. In any fashion, the connection, and the
scar are additional to, or other than a Horcrux, IMO.


Saraquel:
> If Voldemort suspected that Harry was a Horcrux, which 
> surely he must have thought about, he would have made efforts to re-
> connect with that part of himself and not IMO be so dismissive of 
> Harry and so quick to AK him at the Ministry, knowing that he was 
> AKing his own soul.

Valky:
I agree to some degree. I think for certain that the scar itself is
not the signature of a Horcrux. For if it was, then Voldmeort will
have been aware of a possible Horcrux in Harry since book one or even
before this after having come across a rumour about the lightning bolt
scar on Harry's head. IMO, if we are going *with* Harry Horcrux, then
the scar must be removed from the equation for the reasons Saraquel
has stated above. The scar represents something else, it may r may not
be something that Voldemort recognises, but it does not (as is
apparent to me anyway) indicate that Harry is a Horcrux.

OTOH, one can remove the scar from the question, and yet postulate
that Harry is possibly a Horcrux. We have seen the scar shape on a
Horcrux before, and Moody evidently believed that there were possible
indications of Harry being susceptible to possession by Voldemort.
There is also the Silver instruments, which Dumbledore used to
conclude that two Snakes were in esscence divided. And there is the
chance that a Horcrux was made at Godrics Hollow, so hence the very
real chance that it ended up in the wrong body/container.

Voldemort does not necessarily have to know any of these things as of
Book five, but may be aware of them later than this.



 
> 3)Dumbledore in CoS
> Uk Ed COS p245
> "Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to
> you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to
> do, I'm sure 
"
> "Voldemort put a bit of himself in me?" Harry said thunderstruck.
> "It certainly seems so."
> DD seems to think that what was transferred to Harry was Voldemort's 
> *powers* not a bit of his soul.

Valky:
Yes and no.. Dumbledore certainly does say that he believed powers had
been transferred to Harry during the attack. But nothing here
precludes a soul piece being in Harry "also*. I think we know it
doesn't argue against a Horcrux exactly, but this I think is very
important. We *should* be focusing on the powers and on why Voldmeort
would be in the process of giving Parseltongue to something when he
tried to AK Harry. An inanimate Horcrux just doesn't make any sense,
if he's throwing around Parseltongue, right? I am afraid that
Horcrux!Equal-She-Mate!Lily does foot the bill for a transfer of the
power of Parseltongue, a rare power that would make secret and
significant communication a real thrill for the DE beholder. One
reason why I flagged that theory, awful as it was.


> Saraquel:
> 4)Wizards and Muggles
> This one is my favourite and I think the most difficult to counter.
> Presuming that both wizards and muggles both have souls - there is 
> no cannon evidence to support this, but I feel reasonably confident 
> that it is so.  The difference between muggles and witches (let's 
> have gender balances here) is their magical ability – their powers.  
> It therefore seems to me that magical powers are a separate entity 
> to the soul. Hence making Harry a horcrux would not necessarily 
> endow him with Voldemort's powers.  So if you then argue that some 
> powers were also transferred when Harry was made a horcrux – I 
> simply reply, why bother with the soul bit – why not just leave it 
> at powers? 

Valky:
Which I do not, and neither think it should be done. 
My personal take on Godrics Hollow is that we should not be confining
the events to one spell from Voldemort one spell from Lily thinking. 
Since HBP, we are definitely past that, aren't we? We know there was a
Horcrux involved, we know that Voldemort knew two lines of the
prophecy we know, according to DD as Snape has revealed to him, that
at least one of these lines LV knew he applied specific interpretation
to to come up with the Potters, we know from JKR that noone could have
known what would happen in Godrics Hollow, it had never happened
before, and Lily's choice to die was made under a specific set of
circumstances which are the crux of the reason why Harry survived.. 

We are way past trying to just figure out how an AK backfired, we have
been shown a very complex graduating formula of protections that LV
used for his Locket Horcrux, and a marvellously involved game of real
world wizard chess between DD and LV. This grand scale of things, must
be taken into account now. There is more than one element at work in
Godrics Hollow. Our privileged peek into Voldemorts mastery of magical
design in the cave is our best clue, IMO. 

So what am I saying? I'm saying that a Horcrux, *and* a transfer of
powers, *and* a deadly rebounded curse are the *least* amount of
variables we should consider. Voldemort, indeed, went to Godrics
Hollow to subvert, overturn and not the least defy fate and fortune,
not just to shoot green light at a baby. 

 
> Saraquel:
> 5) Dumbledore in HBP
> UK Ed p473
> "I am sure that he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your 
> death. As we know, he failed."  I really think DD would have thought 
> about the accidental scenario.

Valky:
Unless it can be prove beynd a shadow of a doubt that Dumbledore lead
Harry to discover such a thing, for himself, and with unquestionably
good reason to do so, such as Harry would fall down dead the instant
he was told which couldn't be good, there is really no answer to this.
Dumbledore did not tell Harry that he was a Horcrux.

*BUt* Harry knows that Dumbledore thinks Nagini is a Horcrux. And
Harry and Nagini share in common, a *lot* of things. This is a simple
adding of 2 and 2 to make four to come to the conclusion that Harry
may be another *like* Nagini.. So it could almost be said that
Dumbledore *has* lead him all the way.. all that is now required is a
bulletproof, watertight reason why Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry
directly. We don't have that.
 

> 
> Plus 3 courtesy of Jen in post 140041 
> 6) Even though I personally love the idea Harry is gifted in
> destroying the Horcruxes in a way DD is not, the diary did not have
> any curses upon it the way the ring did. So we can't know that for
> sure yet.

Valky:
I too agree with Jen here, we can't be sure. The Diary may have been
the weakest point of all, and the Ring the strongest and best
protected. For all we know, that is. 

What we do know is that Hrry recognised the name on the diary, though
he did not remember where from.. hmm theres that not remembering thing
again <g> Dumbledore located and recognised the Ring Horcrux by virtue
of detective work, thought and logical deduction. 

This recognition is unique to Harry. But the recognition is of the
name, not the object or any sense of its magic.. which supports a
hidden connection beteen Tom Riddle and Harry early in his life, as I
have submitted above.. and it answers the next question nicely.


> Saraquel:
> 7) Harry did not feel any affinity at all for the locket at 12 GP,
> if indeed it is a Horcrux, nor could he open it, same as the others
> present.

Valky:
Ok first the locket at Grimmauld place is still speculation.. Granted
it's a virtual given on a silver platter that it is the Horcrux.. OK I
withdraw that argument.. I think it's the Locket Horcrux too.

I agree, the fact is that Harry doesn't appear to have an innate
affinity for Horcruxes, and certinly no little Voldemort jumped out of
Harry screaming "How did THAT get here!!" when he saw it. So this is a
pretty solid "I don't think so.." argument against Horcrux!Harry. 

JKR has however given herself a nice little out by making this all
happen less than 24 hrs from the time that Harry had left Privet
Drive. If indeed the blood protection in Harry once activated keeps
Harry safe from Voldie attack from inside then it would be at it's
strongest closer to the time when he has been at Privet Drive. IOW if
the Locket had shown up at Christmas with the same results, I would
say, yeah JKR shot that one down good and proper, but as it stands,
there is no certainty that she has.


> Saraquel:
> 8) In the cave, DD said: "I think we must resign ourselves to the
> fact that they [Inferi] will, at some point, realize we're not Lord
> Voldemort." (chap. 26, p. 564) And they do!! I know this is pitiful
> little evidence, but I think if Harry is somehow recognized to have
> part of Voldemort in him, the Inferi would not bother him.

Valky:
I do agree. But I have also always wondered why the Dementors took
such a particular interest in Harry, just an aside, if they sensed two
souls in him, then it would start to make sense why they always wanted
to hmm kiss him, buy one get one free no less. eww

Okay back to the original question, yes I think this is pretty good as
it goes against Horcrux Harry. I think that the boat is similar, it
weighs powers, and surely Voldemort in Harry would add up to 2
powerful wizards not one powerful wizard and a young sidekick right?

Some of these things get a little confusing, but we can safely say
that Harry isn't Lord Voldemort, and perhaps Inferi would recognise LV
in some other fashion. It's not strong, but it is in a way..

For now that's my muster on Horcrux Harry. Not enough to come down
from the fence on either side yet.. alas.. more fencsitting

Valky