Sadistic Snape, Occlumency, etc

[ellecain]

No: HPFGUIDX 140273

"phoenixgod2000":
> He was in the middle of a pitched battle that needed attending to 
and 
> gloating takes up too much time.

Elyse: If this was the case, why did he bother to exchange
that whole "Dont call me coward" bit at the end?
If he was so intent in getting out of there why argue with 
Harry over his dead father and give him the magical 
equivalent of a bitch slap?
He could have just Petrificus Totalused Harry and ran on.
Instead he ranted on about a silly nickname and spells he invented
in school. 
Methinks he was reluctant to leave Hogwarts after the
sanctuary it had been to him for 16 years.

"phoenixgod2000": 
> Hell, just because he worked for DD doesn't mean he can't be a 
sadist 
> to his students and Harry in particular. getting out his issues on 
> inferiors with little ability to strike back seems like the sort 
of 
> thing a petty sadist would engage in.

Elyse: But a lot of people abuse their inferiors.
Whole populations of people have been subjucated to 
enormous cruelty by the invading people in history.
You only have to look at Apartheid, the Holocaust etc.
Not all people who followed these systems to mistreat their so-
called inferiors were sadists.

Elyse: I like it. It sounds a bit confusing if you look at it from 
> > the Snape was talking about James angle.
> > But this could tie in nicely with Snape feeling he did
> > not do enough to pay back James' life debt.

"phoenixgod2000": 
> Or because James also called him a snivelling coward and he 
reacted 
> instinctively to the insult.

Elyse: Ah, but it was Snape who brought James into the discussion.
Almost banteringly, as Pippin said.
And I doubt that James ever called Snape a coward.
He seemed full of fight when they were humiliating him in OOTP.
"You wait" he panted "You wait"....

Elyse: 
> > Incidentally I've always been surprised that Harry could break
> > into Snape's mind during OOTP Occlumency lessons.
> > I mean how come Snape can hold out on his memories from LV
> > but someone like Harry who has *no* Legilimency power
> > can break through? I think JKR messed up on that one.

"phoenixgod2000": 
> My theory is that Harry piggybacked on the spell back into Snapes 
> thoughts, bypassing his shields. Its what I use in my fan fic.

Elyse:
But the spell did not ricochet off the shield and hit Snape.
At least I dont remember any jets of light hitting him.
Harry simply blocked it. Snape's wand fell away from him so he could 
not have continued the spell.
By the way, what fanfic?! I'd love to read it!!!
Please send me a copy :) 
 
> > Elyse interrupting:
> > Are you suggesting all people with good emotional 
detachment/control
> > have mental problems?

phoenixgod2000:
> In a sixteen year old, yeah, I think its a sign of some pretty bad 
> problems. Teenagers are supposed to be more like Harry, bundles 
> of emotion and hormones who wear their hearts on their sleeves. 
It's 
> what a teenager is. I have enough experience with detached teens 
to 
> know that being that way is a real bad idea.

Elyse:
I am appalled at the rough schools you mentioned.
Never had any experience with that kinda thing.

However, maybe I should tell you that I just turned 18 
in June. And while I am not exactly a role model of emotional 
control, my best friend is. She is a very moral person, with 
intelligence,and compassion. She has a horror of being petty,
and has never held a grudge, always resisted the temptation to take 
revenge in small ways even with the opportunity right in front of 
her. I admire her and strive to be more like her every day.
But the reason she is able to be what she is, is because of her
amazing self control over her emotions. She has never let her 
emotions stand in the way of good judgement.

phoenixgod2000:
> Furthermore, in the mugglenet interview JKR actually says that in 
a 
> way Harry is better off with not being great at occulmency because 
it 
> means he isn't as cut off from his emotions as Draco is.  tells me 
> that the skill of Occlumency isn't often a skill of the incredibly 
> moral.  

Elyse :
Let me clarify. Occlumency is done well by those people who have
emotional control. If not emotional control, then at least
emotional detachment. Both terms mean that you have emotions, strong 
ones,but your conscious mind prevents an emotional hijack.
You have to stop these feeling get a hold over you and colour your 
judgement. This does not in any way, mean that you are cut off from 
these emotions, you do not stop yourself feeling them, rather
you control your emotions as opposed to them controlling you.
I do not see this as a bad thing.
Anyway even if you are not convinced by my explanation, I have one 
word: Dumbledore!
  
> > Elyse: Come on, give Snape due credit. He lost emotional control 
> > two times *only* in 6 years. Both times he was reacting to 
> > memories of childhood bullies.
> 
> Wah Wah Wah. Poor wittle Snape. He is an almost forty years old 
man, 
> he should get past a childhood trama with a dead guy. 

Elyse: Once again,let me explain what I was trying to say.
Even into adulthood, there are some triggers in your memory
that remind you not only of certain incidents, but how you FELT 
during those incidents.
A long ago taunt, a smell, a song can still remind you very strongly 
of what you were feeling at a certain time. It happens to many 
people: even though their head may know that he/she is not a @#*$#
the feelings that well up are harder to suppress, making you feel 
the same way you did when you were eight years old.

And can you honestly say that watching your own memory of  a 
bullying incident, you would have complete emotional control
no matter how old you were?

phoenixgod2000":BIG SNIP
Harry hasn't earned the way Snape treats him.
 
Elyse: I agree. But I think this is a deliberate device by Snape
not have any feelings for Harry because he has to assume the 
unrepentant Death Eater role.
Of course, opinions differ.

phoenixgod2000": 
> When did he rant against his girlfriend? >  
Elyse: Right before he jumps into Snape's pensieve in OOTP.
Snape's Worst memory chapter.

phoenixgod2000": 
> I don't think he endangers students for the most part, guys like 
> Draco endanger themselves by not listening him because they think 
> they know better.

Elyse: Oh come on, the Blast Ended Skrewts were a prime example.
He ought to have less dangerous creatures in his classes.
At a place like Hogwarts where trouble erupts all the time,
why add fuel to the fire by putting deadly animals into the mix?

Elyse