Sadistic!Snape? (was:Snape's canon opposite/ Proving loyalty...)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 140303

> >>vmonte:
> > > It's beyond me how you can say that you don't understand how   
> > > folks get the idea that Snape is deeply horrible and sadistic  
> > > when the author plainly states this as fact in her books... 
> > > <snip>

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Probably because the books don't plainly state it at all.  

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> Other than, you know, picking out a student for "special attention"
> during his very first Potions class...

Betsy Hp:
I've remarked on this before, but I think Snape had a very 
deliberate reason for his opening gambit with Harry in PS/SS.  
Remember, Harry's celebrity status, at this point, is huge.  Harry 
is hero-worshipped to such an extent that Gryffindor breaks into a 
gleeful chant when he gets sorted into their house, and a teacher 
actually faints when he gets Harry in his classroom.  Snape, I'm 
sure, noticed all of this.

It's canon now that there *was* a thought within certain circles 
that Harry may become a Dark Lord himself, and that Snape was aware 
of such theories.  And Harry does bare an uncanny physical 
resemblance to James, who did not handle his popularity well (from 
Snape's POV anyway).

Snape's opening lecture in his very first potions class struck me as 
a well-rehearsed show.  I'm quite sure he'd been doing it for 
years.  I'm also quite sure that he peppered his new students with 
difficult, to near impossible questions.  It makes sense to me, 
because the questions establish two things: 1)It tells students that 
they must go beyond a mere surface reading of their assigments if 
they wish to impress Snape, and 2)It tells them that they'd better 
pay attention to what he says in class.

I think Snape chose Harry for *all* the questions with deliberate 
reason.  He was telling the other students in Harry's class that 
Snape was not bowled over by the "great Harry Potter" and neither 
should they be.  He was also playing the part of a former Death 
Eater.  But most importantly to him, I think, Snape was testing 
Harry's character, and I think (unfortunately and incorrectly) found 
reason to worry.  Harry cheeked back to him.  I'm sure Snape took 
this to mean that Harry was like his father in more than just 
looks.  (The ironic thing is that I think Snape was wrong.  Harry's 
not much like James at all.  In fact I think his refusal to submit 
was rather Snape-like.)  But I believe that exchange shaped Snape's 
treatment of Harry over the rest of the books.  

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...insulting an orphan's father...

Betsy Hp:
Whenever Snape brought up James it was usually (IIRC) when Harry was 
doing something colossally stupid, like sneaking into Hogsmeade when 
there was a mass murderer out for his blood.  Snape, with good 
reason (especially after reading some of Sirius's "advice"), was 
trying to turn Harry away from emulating his father.  Snape chose a 
piss-poor way of going about it, I grant.  But again, I see a reason 
for his behavior.  Enjoyment of Harry's suffering wasn't it, IMO.

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...insulting a student's looks...

Betsy Hp:
And by doing so kept his Seeker out of detention and on the field.  
Again it was with reason rather than specifically looking to insult 
Hermione.  Doesn't he do something similar when a Slytherin hexes 
one of the Gryffindor Chaser's eyebrows?  Snape is protecting his 
team, which leads to...

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...playing favorites...

Betsy Hp:
While not a good thing for a teacher to do, I'm not sure how this is 
sadistic behavior.  

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...casting aspersions on a student's intelligence to another      
> teacher in front of the student and his classmates...

Betsy Hp:
Again, not good behavior, but hardly sadistic.  (McGonagall made 
sure everyone in Gryffindor house saw Neville as the house dunce.  
Why isn't she labeled sadistic?)

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...making an unjustified criticism of another teacher to that     
> teacher's class...

Betsy Hp:
As McGonagall does with Trelawney?  Again, not very sadistic, to my 
mind.

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...threatening to poison a student's pet and then being abusive    
> after he's thwarted... 

Betsy Hp:
Actually, I'd catagorize the toad incident as trying to vividly 
drive home the lesson that the potions the students are making are 
*supposed* to be consumed.  Frankly, I think Snape was trying to 
reach Neville here.  It didn't work, unfortunately.  And taking five 
points for Hermione's cheating strikes me as something much less 
than abusive and certainly not sadistic.

> >>Amiable Dorsai:
> ...discouraging class participation from the best student in his  
> class... 

Betsy Hp:
You mean making sure the class know-it-all doesn't take over his 
classroom as she's taken over so many others?  Hermione is 
brilliant, but she tends to dominate whatever class she's in. (I 
believe there's at least one time where Harry notes that no one 
bothers trying to answer a question because they know Hermione's got 
it covered.)  Snape knows she knows.  He's interested in making sure 
(as a good teacher should, IMO) that the other students know the 
answer too.

> >>Amiable Dorsai: 
> And then there's the time he tried to have the very souls of two
> innocent men destroyed.

Betsy Hp:
You mean the mass-murderer and the teacher who helped him into the 
school where he nearly killed a student?  Those innocent men?  Shall 
we accuse Harry of sadism since he expressed a desire to see Sirius 
dead?

> >>Amiable Dorsai: 
> Other than that, yes, he seems very jolly.

Betsy Hp:
No, not jolly.  But not sadistic either.  Which is what I was 
questioning in the first place.  Is Snape a sadist?  The text seems 
to say, no.

> >>Lealess:
> Honestly, Snape is not cut out to be a teacher.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I think he's an excellent teacher, myself.  I just think he's of a 
certain (out of favor now unfortunately) sort.  It's been discussed 
ad nauseum, but I don't see any evidence that any student suffered 
unduly in his classroom.  And yes, that includes Neville.  Neville 
who still has a pet toad and who doesn't seem all that afraid of 
Snape anymore, IMO. 

Frankly, McGonagall, who is of a similar mode, strikes me as 
scarier.  Her punishments tend to include public humiliation.  Snape 
takes you on personally, McGonagall makes sure you become a social 
pariah.  I wouldn't cross either of them.  But neither would I 
accuse either of them of being a sadist.  They are both rather 
strict disciplinarians (and interestingly enough are both seen as 
top teachers at Hogwarts, per the books anyway) but that's about as 
far as I would go.

> >>Pippin (message #140298):
> <snip>
> The Snape's a bully plot is over, we've heard the end though the
> beginning is still to unfold. And his students have utterly failed
> to have their spirits crushed or suffer any of the dire effects
> predicted by various listies.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Exactly!  While Harry still bears the scars of Umbridge's 
treatment.  No, JKR knows how to write a sadist, and she didn't do 
so with Snape, IMO.

Betsy Hp