The handwriting in the book (Was: Lily and Snape)

[dungrollin]

No: HPFGUIDX 140406

> Valky:
> I agree they are all reasonable suggestions, but I think we do know
> that DADA is Snapes pet subject. 
<snip>
> Among other things, his loving caress of a speech about Dark Arts, 
his inventions, and his reputation for being nose deep in anything 
Dark Arts since he was a child.. this all speaks multitudes about it.
> 

Dungrollin:
(Forgive me for butting in) On the other hand, the 'foolish wand-
waving' comment suggests to me a love of theory and its application 
to practical matters.

> > zgirnius:
> > Well, actually I don't find it odd to ascribe either quality to 
> > Snape. For aesthetics, I'd cite his first ever speech in Potions 
> > class. Poetic, that.
> 
> Valky now:
> HAha <bg> I had a feeling this one would be thrown heavily at me 
for saying this. I had considered it, yes. But poetry, the 
aesthetics of speech, it's not going to work in potions since 
humming lyrically over the cauldron has nothing to do with these 
recipe changes. There is a definite connection between Snapes 
fashionable eloquence and his genius in incantation, but it's a 
different kettle of fish to perfumery, shimmer, and an elegant touch 
with nature itself. These things would translate into a well groomed 
person (nice smelling potions), with a gentleness about them 
(removing less pleasant side effects from the potion), a love and 
affinity with nature (bean juicing). Snape is neither gentle nor 
well groomed, he doesn't have the sensitivity required to percieve 
the growth in Hermione's teeth in GOF, nor does he possess any 
obvious sensibility about his own appearance. These are the 
aesthetics that translate into the potions improvements, and they 
aren't Snapes style. 
> 

Dungrollin:
Sooo... ugly people can't appreciate a Titian or Rembrandt? Ever 
seen Rembrandt's self-portrait? Okay, I know that's not what you 
were arguing, but it's like saying that all Doctors must have a 
wonderful bedside manner because they're there to cure people. It's 
just not true, and neither is it true in the Potterverse: Madam 
Pomfrey's quite scary, and I don't remember offhand any sign of 
gentleness in her among the many times Harry ends up in the hospital 
wing.

And I think that translating a more efficient way of getting juice 
out of a bean into a love of nature is a bit of a stretch. In the 
area of science in which I work there is a great distinction between 
those who love field work (getting your hands dirty, trekking to 
remote locations in search of data) and those who spend all their 
time in the lab, and order in all the stuff they need from 
elsewhere. We've never heard of a potions field trip, all the 
ingredients are in the store cupboard, or sold by apothecaries. The 
closest we get is Slughorn talking to Professor Sprout about picking 
something at twilight, and then taking the acromantula venom and 
eyeing up Hagrid's Unicorn tail hairs - though that's for making a 
bit of extra cash, nothing to do with not being able to get hold of 
the ingredients.

And, furthermore, why should a love of nature (if it's a valid 
deduction, which I don't think it is) be more obviously ascribable 
to Lily than Snape? Did we hear about her and James going for long 
walks in the countryside around Hogsmeade and I've forgotten?

> > Valky:
> > > It's not his area to add a sprig
> > > of peppermint to improve a euphoria potion, is it? Surely not. 
Why would Snape even *care* about "Euphoria" potion of all things? 
Let alone whether it smelled nice or if the dunderhead who bothered 
to take it tweaked his nose and burst into foolish song all over the 
> place.
> 

Dungrollin:
Well... I can think of a good number of underhand reasons. A 
Euphoria potion might be quite useful if you needed to get somebody 
to do something they wouldn't ordinarily have the confidence to do. 
I suppose that it's quite well known that there are side effects to 
many potions. If you were trundling along euphorically, about to do 
something daring that you'd never otherwise do and found yourself 
tweaking noses and bursting into song, you might suddenly 
think "Hang on - I remember reading something about this..." then 
become suspicious that you were under the influence of a behaviour-
changing potion, and decide that going to bed to sleep it off 
(cheerfully) is a much better idea. If, on the other hand, you 
simply found yourself euphoric and decided to do something you 
wouldn't normally do and there were *no* tell-tale signs that 
something was amiss, the devious schemer's plan would be more likely 
to work, wouldn't it?


> > zgirnius:
> > I can agree that it is not a potion he necessarily has any use 
for. But if Potions is a favorite subject if his, then the making of 
that potion would be an intellectual exercise. (It is in the NEWT-
level text out of which he was apparently taught.) And eliminating a 
known side-effect of it an interesting challenge. 
> 
> Valky:
> I appreciate the argument for this being a purely intellectual
> exercise, but I don't think it holds. One could intellectually 
come to discover that peppermint reduces side effects in Euphoria 
potion. But it's far easier I'd say to be concerned for the drinker 
and be genuinely interested in providing a service to someone, 
beforehand.  I mean, these are really beyond the call *nice* things 
to be giving in the course of presenting a potion. The Euphoria 
potion without a sprig of peppermint is entirely adequate.
> 

Dungrollin:
Intellectual exercises often find their way towards practical 
applications - that's the great thing about pure research, while 
you're doing it you have absolutely no idea whether what you find 
out will have any use - you may even be certain that it won't. 
However, a few years later another 'purely intellectual exercise' 
may lead to an insight which, in combination with a previously 
unapplicable result can be practically applied to produce a tangible 
improvement.

And (to repeat myself), I see no reason to assume that someone who 
invents a way of reducing the side effects of a drug or potion has 
to be in any way concerned with the well-being of the person who 
takes it. It's like suggesting that a construction engineer who's 
working on a hospital must be a philanthropist, or that anyone who's 
done research into cancer treatment must be a saint. They're not 
saints, they're researchers, driven by a desire to understand the 
world and how it works. (Okay, some of them *might* be saints, but 
my point is that it is not a prerequisite for the job, nor is it a 
prerequisite for having an interest in the subject...)

Valky:
> While we were on the subject of Snapes sense of humour I wanted to 
add a note about the Bezoar. I forgot there so I'll just notch it in 
here. Just shove a bezoar down their throats. Cheeky, no? Cheeky was 
Lily's style. It's falling in the wrong field of wit to have 
Sarcastic Snape behind it. 
> 

Dungrollin:
Hmm... I don't think we've got enough information to pin it to 
Lily's style. To me it sounds more like Ron than anybody. I agree 
that it doesn't sound bitter enough for Snape, though there's a 
tinge of arrogance to it that reminds me of Sirius and James. I read 
it as a clue that Snape wasn't always bitter and dismissive and 
cold. Current Snape would write simply "Bezoar. Does this fool know 
nothing?"

Valky:
and consider, The same person who intellectually derived 
improvements to potions recipes through scientific trial an error, 
gives a cheekfaced attitude to the notion of troubling too much to 
do the same for an antidote. It's counterintuitive, IMO. 

Dungrollin:
But it wasn't that he didn't bother with the antidotes, Harry seems 
to think that the Half-Blood Prince had (like Hermione) understood 
the theory with no problem. Snape may not ever have found an 
improvement on the method of using 'Specialis revelio' to separate 
the poisons, testing them and producing their antidotes, and then 
finding that other ingredient which makes the whole work (hence the 
fact that Harry found no notes on this). Actually, the tone suggests 
to me that Snape understood it, and did it, but couldn't improve on 
it, and irritably wondered what was the point of going through the 
whole laborious procedure anyway when you could just shove a bezoar 
down their throats. 

Dungrollin
Utterly convinced that Snape has a deep love of learning, and 
reading, and enquiring about the universe.